Wiktionary:Tea room/2017/November

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discussion rooms: Tea roomEtym. scr.Info deskBeer parlourGrease pit ← October 2017 · November 2017 · December 2017 → · (current)

跑車[edit]

The 5th meaning of 跑車 'race car' reads "car race"; is it o.k.? --Backinstadiums (talk) 11:43, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

Why is it not ok? Wyang (talk) 02:19, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
@Wyang:The 1st meaning is race car, a type of car, and the fifth a car race, a type of race. --Backinstadiums (talk) 08:41, 4 November 2017 (UTC)

victim[edit]

Should we create an entry for victim mentality, and add a pejorative sense to victim ("someone who is prone to feelings of helplessness")? --Barytonesis (talk) 15:06, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

I think so, though adding the new sense to victim might just make victim mentality a sum of its parts. —Globins (talk) 06:52, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

Contributions of User:Jawitkien[edit]

Could somebody (who has any idea about Lojban) give this user some help with formatting etc.? See e.g. bacrynandu. Equinox 19:30, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

what did I do that you don't like? Jawitkien (talk) 19:41, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
@Jawitkien: hello, and welcome. Please look at this edit, and pay attention to what I've changed. --Barytonesis (talk) 19:45, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
Thank you for your kind attention. I am mostly regularizing entries. I rarely get to add a new one. Jawitkien (talk) 19:55, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

晶晶: "Lua error: not enough memory"[edit]

Just bumped into 晶晶 and noticed the "Derived terms" section only reads "Lua error: not enough memory". What should we do about it? What is the problem? MGorrone (talk) 20:43, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

There was nothing actually there so I've removed it. DTLHS (talk) 20:45, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
Apparently some of them are here

XBoxes[edit]

The page XBoxes should exist. Here is 3 books that have the word "XBoxes": [1][2][3]. --75.71.229.53 22:09, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

I agree, and I think most others will too. —Globins (talk) 07:00, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

interversion[edit]

Is there no such word in English? If yes, would permutation be a synonym? --Barytonesis (talk) 22:22, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

It seems to me that there are supportable senses in music and law. DTLHS (talk) 22:24, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

day and night AND night and day[edit]

In what way are these adjectives?? Equinox 02:49, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

No way that justifies an adjective PoS, IMO. DCDuring (talk) 12:38, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

to the face[edit]

I am a bit sceptical: "he ate a whole pizza to the face"? (no Google hits except for our entry). I've put "slang" on it because it has to be, but where is this used, and is it real? Equinox 05:13, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

Why not just RfV it? DCDuring (talk) 12:38, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
I'm familiar with take something to the face and the related take something to the head, but these mean something slightly different (i.e. consume the something). These would definitely be considered as slang Leasnam (talk) 01:59, 5 November 2017 (UTC)
This has a definite second-language/calque feel to it- @Wikitiki89 might have picked it up from local usage among first- or second-generation immigrant communities. As for rfv: that combination of words gets millions of Google Books hits- I'm not really sure how you would filter out all the false positives. Chuck Entz (talk) 03:15, 5 November 2017 (UTC)
See WT:RFVE#to the face. DCDuring (talk) 10:51, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

conver[edit]

Hello, I let a message here about the word conver but since it is recommended to let a message here as well, so here it is. Pamputt (talk) 12:54, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

Isn't it a typo for cover? --Barytonesis (talk) 13:00, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
Who knows? I have no idea. Yeah, you're right. DonnanZ (talk) 17:41, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

drainpipe[edit]

"A pipe connecting the drain to the gutter." I assume this means a roof gutter downpipe or downspout, but what about other forms of drainpipe, e.g. from a bath or kitchen sink, or are they always known as waste pipes? DonnanZ (talk) 17:31, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

  • Here in the UK, a "drainpipe" is a pipe from a roof gutter down the side of a building. I have never the word used to mean a waste pipe from a bath, sink or similar. I couldn't say about other English-speaking parts of the world. Mihia (talk) 23:01, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
    Yes, as far as I understand the word, it's specific to draining water away from a building, not from an appliance etc. Ƿidsiþ 13:55, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

pop socket[edit]

The term "pop socket" (variations: "popsocket", "PopSocket", "Pop Socket", etc.) appears in Google searches of years 2013 through 2017. Etymologically, the term may have originated from the name of a company that produces cell phone accessory objects call "pop sockets" (typically circular solid objects that have adhesive to stick to a cell phone to make the cell phone stand up at an angle). According to Wiktionay policy entries need to have existed for a year or more: else, their page is deleted. This term has existed for around 5 years. However, It may not be notable enough for a page. --Spunionztastic (talk) 17:54, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

We're a descriptive dictionary, so usage is the only source of notability here. In this case, pretty much all the English usage in durably-archived sources found by Google Books and Google Groups seems to be the combination of various things known by the acronym POP and the programming or electronic-hardware senses of socket, with some odds and ends of random occurrence of "pop"/"POP" and "socket(s)" next to each other. There are a couple of German references to the cellphone product and a spam-type commercial message posted to a couple of non-Usenet Google Groups, but those don't count. Some people have had luck finding things in newspapers that are durably archived, but this doesn't look that promising. Chuck Entz (talk) 20:12, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

father tongue[edit]

could an administrator create father tongue please. --2A02:2788:A4:F44:A48E:853C:8987:9F21 22:09, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

Place for the request: WT:Requested entries (English)#F. -80.133.107.254 06:35, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

love the sinner, hate the sin[edit]

I created the page "love the sinner, hate the sin" but need help on improvements. I felt that citations are unnecessary unless I'm told otherwise; the phrase has been often used. --George Ho (talk) 22:39, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

It seems SoP (ie, sum-of-parts, not an idiom, therefore not includable) as a verb. But it is often found as a kind of proverb, which would allow for inclusion IMO. DCDuring (talk) 02:35, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
I hope you don't mind, but I completely reworded it. I don't think your definition was completely neutral-POV (e.g. "what they consider a sin"), and it didn't capture the sense of the word as a Christian would use it. My definition may be slightly wordy, so you are welcome to improve upon it, but be wary of implying anything that isn't actually part of the meaning of the phrase as it's used. Andrew Sheedy (talk) 05:38, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

Etymology : CARTAGENA - Province of Spain - name used in Spain and most former colonies of Spain.[edit]

As Cartagena is being traduced, most people go for the name "New Carthago", as eg. New York, New Jersey, etc., meaning a copy of a city in the colonisator's country. The history of Cartagena - Spain might be quite similar as being the "New" edition of an existing name in the country of origin. The name "Cartagena" does refer to Carthago as the main base of Cartagenian identity. The term "gena" though does not refer to what we call "new"." "Gena" refers to "gender" with all its origines and derivatives as "genus", "generous", "gens" (French),"gentes" Spanish),"general","Genesis" (Meaning Birth). "Gender" was used to indicate "sex" in <15th century England. "Gender" means "blood related", can be a man, a woman, a son, a daughter, a nephew, etc. ... and sometimes a whole Nation was identified by the same "Gender". As "Gender" can be translated into "Family", the name "Cartagena does not mean "New Carthago" but "from Carthagian gender - Carthagian family", as Romans called "Cartagena". All peoples around the Mediterranean some 2200 years ago identified themselve as member of the gender Julii as Julius Ceasar, or the gender Gracchi as Tiberius Grachus, or the gender Skipii as Skipio Africanus, etc. ... Your position in Roman Society was all dependant of the fame or infame your family collected during the past history. Member of the Julii family, the Grachi family, the Skipii famili, and ergo, the Cartagenian familie which gave its name to "CARTAGENA" instead of "NEW CARTHAGO"

The author = Patrick Vermeulen - Belgium, thanks you for your interest.

beverage[edit]

AFAIK, not "chiefly US". What do you think? ---> Tooironic (talk) 02:17, 4 November 2017 (UTC)

Definitely not, IMO. Wyang (talk) 02:18, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
Rare in UK in my experience. Restaurants etc. just call them drinks. Equinox 17:41, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
It's common in Canada as well, so so far, it'd be chiefly Canada, US, Australia. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 23:22, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
Thanks everyone, I've made some changes. ---> Tooironic (talk) 02:57, 5 November 2017 (UTC)
It certainly is used in the UK, but it's more formal term than "drink". Collins ([[4]]) makes no distinction in its the British and American definitions. For that reason, I don't believe it needs any regional label at all for this sense, and so I have removed it. — Paul G (talk) 06:51, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
It's definitely used differently in the US. I mean, the word obviously exists in the UK, but it's not something your waitress is likely to say to you. How we codify that in usage labels, I don't know. Ƿidsiþ 13:54, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

dressed up/done up like a dog's dinner[edit]

We already have dog's dinner, but I don't think it covers adequately the meaning of the above expression. --Barytonesis (talk) 12:01, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

Pon Yup[edit]

I doubt it refers to the modern district. The name 番禺 was used for different jurisdictions in its history. The modern designation as a district is a relatively new one (since 2000). — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 07:54, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

strenuous[edit]

The first sense is just a list of synonyms. A better definition please? DTLHS (talk) 04:29, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

  • I've had a go at it. Feel free to improve. SemperBlotto (talk) 06:22, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

Re mortar[edit]

I came to mortar because I wanted to find out why the "mixture of lime" and "indirect fire weapon" are both called "mortar". This page completely fails to do so, only providing the etymology for the context-less word itself.

While I can guess why the weapon got to be called "mortar", what has this to do with building bricks and grinding ingredients?

In short, what is the etymology for the concept of "mixture of lime"? CapnZapp (talk) 13:34, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

Does clockwise need 2 definitions?[edit]

'Left' and 'right' are notoriously difficult to define, as first you have to define the observer and what they observe. The wiktionary definitions both invoke the compass to get it across. (I think this is why some people have difficulty remembering which is which... for some people it's intrinsic to the observer, for others it's just an arbitrary abstract concept).

Anyway, I think definition 1 of clockwise is ok, you're allowed to use the concepts of 'right', 'left' and 'clock', and rest on the metaphor like the whole word does, without using words like 'axis' or 'perpendicular'. I'll still rewrite it tho cos it seems a bit clunky.

However, I've read definition 2 five times:

2. (of movement) Positioned as such when facing the side of a circular structure or configuration, objects moving within the structure approach from the right-hand side, and depart toward the left-hand side.

I feel like there is at the very least a missing "that" which should be inserted for the hard of thinking (i.e. me). But... what does meaning 2 mean and how is it different from the first definition? I imagined the notional structure as being outside the observer, not vice versa (which as far as I can tell reverses the definition). And how can something positioned in reference to a circular structure be itself 'clockwise' or 'counter-/anticlockwise'? Because the definition is talking about motion after all.

I feel like I'm missing something really basic :( Moogsi (talk) 01:02, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, weird. "(of movement) Positioned..." sounds like a bad start. Equinox 01:04, 9 November 2017 (UTC)
Yeah "positioned of movement" should be the first clue. I wondered if there was some special meaning... Moogsi (talk) 18:59, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

I have edited clockwise adv. Please criticize Moogsi (talk) 18:59, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

I removed references to movement because I don't think this is essentially motional but rather spatial e.g. "The hours of a sundial are arranged anticlockwise" Moogsi (talk) 19:02, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

Latin: respondeor[edit]

The author of entry for verb "respondeo" claims that The passive voice is limited to third-person singular forms. However there exists in wiktionary an entry "respondeor". This contradicts what is said of "respondeo". Pierrecmichaud (talk) 04:54, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

I've removed the Latin entry whole, it was created by a bot. Anti-Gamz Dust (There's Hillcrest!) 04:05, 10 November 2017 (UTC)
There are other spurious forms: respondebar, respondebor, etc. These might be attested, but it's definitely non-classical/proscribed. --Barytonesis (talk) 15:49, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

RFV: marks on Italian obliquum pronouns[edit]

Is this dissymmetry true (at least could be in PT/GL/ES)?:

  • meco: Prep. archaic, literary DEF (1)
  • teco: Prep. archaic, literary DEF (1)
  • seco: Prep. archaic. literary DEF (2)
  • nosco: Pron. HEAD poetic, archaic (4 by extension)
  • vosco: Adv. HEAD poetic, archaic (1)

Notice the different placement of the marks (before DEF inition; or TCX after HEAD) with no relation to the number of senses (1-4) whatsoever. And the diff POS. Sobreira ►〓 (parlez) 09:21, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

Reichism[edit]

Definition makes no sense at all. How can all races be superior? Superior to what, if not other races? What does "anti-racist with anti-Semitism" mean? Equinox 15:41, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

Perhaps "superior" should be changed to "equal". I think the end part refers to this belief as being non-racist, and especially having no anti-semitic affiliations Leasnam (talk) 16:45, 9 November 2017 (UTC)
More importantly, there doesn't seem to be any usage for it. All I can find is references to w:William Reich and one or two references to German imperialism. There's one quote from the Clinton administration in the US, apparently referring to w:Robert Reich. A quick look through the hits for "Reichist" show pretty much only German, not English. It looks to me like the folks at Wikipedia couldn't figure this out, so they transwikied it here instead of just deleting it. Chuck Entz (talk) 19:03, 9 November 2017 (UTC)
Oh, right, I assumed the reich was the third reich or something, not a surname. Thanks. Equinox 23:21, 9 November 2017 (UTC)
It is, in the case of the references to German imperialism- but that wouldn't be capitalized in English, and I don't think they're the same as the challenged sense. Chuck Entz (talk) 23:50, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

make the hunting dog chase the rabbit[edit]

Hey all. Do we have a word in English meaning to make the dog chase the rabbit, in hunting? Spanish's got one - engalgar - WF

prepared[edit]

How does "prepared" mean "willing"? I don't understand this definition. DTLHS (talk) 01:34, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

The definition is correct. In most cases 'prepared' means 'willing'. ---> Tooironic (talk) 02:32, 11 November 2017 (UTC)
Maybe we could add a literal sense: "factually/pragmatically prepared" (good to go, ready), as opposed to "mentally/emotionally prepared" (willing). I've added two synonyms, does that help? Also, compare readiness, which means both "preparedness" and "willingness". --Barytonesis (talk) 15:45, 11 November 2017 (UTC)
I also think we need a definition for prepared as in "I am more prepared for this test than the last one." and "I am better prepared to take this test.". DCDuring (talk) 22:17, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

fair's fair[edit]

No entry for this that I can see. Oxford online has "used to request just treatment or assert that a situation is just". DonnanZ (talk) 15:32, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

  • No response, entry created. DonnanZ (talk) 15:36, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

What does 주일 mean?[edit]

I have a Korean Mass timetable distinguishing 주일미사, 토요미사, 평일미사. Wiktionary lets me translate them as Weekday Mass, Saturday Mass, Weekday Mass. Err, what? Surely one of those Weekday Masses is actually a Sunday Mass? Google suggests 주일 means weekend/week/weekday/holiday/Sunday, and translates 주일미사 to Sunday mass. Moreover, the etymology is 週日, which means Sunday basically everywhere, and can mean Weekday in Hong Kong, Malaysia and Singapore. So what does 주일 mean? Sunday or Weekday? Or maybe both are possible but it's Sunday in 주일미사? MGorrone (talk) 16:43, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

I have no answer to your question, but I do wonder why Mass is 밋사 (mitsa) in the first term and 미사 (misa) in the other two. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 19:40, 11 November 2017 (UTC)
@Angr: because on a Romaja keyboard that is Missa and Misa and, well, typo :). Accidental double s. Fixed now. MGorrone (talk) 21:47, 11 November 2017 (UTC)
  • @MGorrone: FWIW, 週日 (shūjitsu) in Japanese means wither “week days → number of days in a week: seven days”, or “weekday”, generally meaning every day except Saturday and Sunday. Also, Google Translate (and, so far as I've seen, any MT platform at all) is often unreliably inaccurate. I do note that our Korean 주일 (ju-il) entry displays a notable lack of Sunday-ness.
That said, the 주일 entry on Naver shows two derivations -- one from 週日, meaning “weekday; week”, and one from 主日, meaning “Lord's day → Sunday”. So apparently in Korean, 주일 (ju-il) can confusingly mean either “Sunday” or “weekday (excluding Sunday)”. In the context of your text, I suspect 주일 is meant with the 主日 derivation. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 04:16, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
@MGorrone Eirikr pretty much got it correct, though I'm not aware of it meaning “weekday”. I've expanded the entry. Please take a look. Wyang (talk) 07:21, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
@Wyang: I recall reading that hangul spellings don't indicate long vowels, even though they apparently exist as a phonemic element in Korean terms. By way of comparison, JA does have a length distinction between these two terms, as 週日 (shūjitsu) with a long /uː/, and 主日 (shujitsu) with a short /u/. On the 주일 (ju-il) page, should there be any difference in pronunciation for the 週日 and 主日 derivations? Or is there no vowel-length distinction between these two in Korean?
Curious, ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 18:43, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
@Eirikr This is a funny one, because Korean merges 週日 and 主日 and makes them completely homophonous (length included), while Japanese keeps the pronunciations apart, even though Japanese on average merges more Sino-xenic readings than Korean. I remember this table from a few years back that illustrated this general tendency quite vividly.
With these two words:
Character Middle Chinese Mandarin Cantonese Sino-Japanese
(Kan’on)
Sino-Korean Sino-Vietnamese
/꜀t͡ɕɨu/ invalid IPA characters (꜀) /ʈ͡ʂou˥˥/ /t͡sau˥˥/ /siu/ > /sjuː/ /t͡ɕu/ /cu˧˧/
/꜂t͡ɕɨo/ invalid IPA characters (꜂) /ʈ͡ʂu˨˩˦/ /t͡ɕy˧˥/ /sju/ /t͡ɕu/ /cu˧˩/
The Japanese long/short vowel difference reflects the different rhymes in MC, whereas a difference in vowel length in Korean (although there is none here) is usually the consequence of different tones in MC. Wyang (talk) 10:38, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

Dutch: weggeweest[edit]

The inflected forms "weggeweeste" en "weggeweests" simply do not exist, anymore than "geweeste" exists. The latter is always the strong "gewezen" and means "former", ex-"

Jcwf (talk) 00:30, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

Okay. It sounds as though all you had to do was to remove the table, which I've now done. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 04:34, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

"The dick" instead of the fuck: how common?[edit]

I heard this in a few Youtube videos by The Grand Poobear (a streamer) and perhaps one by ryukahr (another streamer), and I was wondering if it's just him (or them two) or it's more widespread, and if we could possibly find attestation for this. I only remember one Poobear quotation: «What the dick enemy was that?!». Urban Dictionary seems to support that it's not just two people (I assume only two people wouldn't create an entry with that many sections?). Other sources? MGorrone (talk) 14:08, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

Even if more people use this, my guess is that it's too new of a phrase for there to be any attestations. —Globins (talk) 06:49, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

Want, Ignorance[edit]

Defined as "a personification of want" and "a personification of ignorance". Can you not do this with any abstract concept by giving it a capital? I'm reminded of an old ad for breakfast cereal, "Hunger strikes!", where Hunger was a little dancing monster that had to be locked up till lunchtime. Equinox 19:35, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

I don't see why these have their own entries. As far as I know, there's no widely agreed-upon personification of either of these concepts like the personifications of death or time. —Globins (talk) 06:47, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
Yeah I'm not sure about these. You can do this with any abstract concept, and it was a common literary device, in classical antiquity and the renaissance particularly, to do so. So I'm sure you could find some citations for both, but there is no extra information in the definition other than 'personification of X'. The only other concept I have a strong image for is Envy, and that's only because of Shakespeare's 'green-eyed monster'. All others I can think of are borrowed from antiquity and have definite forms (Justice, Victory, etc.) I think these definitions can be removed. Moogsi (talk) 17:50, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

clit[edit]

The etymology reads "Clipping of clitoris". I feel it's a rather unfortunate choice of words... --Barytonesis (talk) 20:32, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

clipping is the technical term; see our third definition. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 21:13, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
@Metaknowledge: I'm aware of that; I was just underlining the fact that "clipping of clitoris" is dangerously close to "clipping of clitoris". I've replaced "clipping" with "apocope". --Barytonesis (talk) 23:57, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
@Barytonesis: But it isn't apocope. Apocope is the deletion of the final vowel (plus any consonants that may follow it). The apocope of clitoris would be *clitor. It may sound unfortunate in this circumstance, but it is a clipping, like it or not. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 13:15, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
@Angr: Oh, I see. I thought apocopes and aphaereses were subtypes of clippings. --Barytonesis (talk) 13:24, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
Well they are, but those terms are more specific than clipping, and since clitoris removes more than the word-final V(C) sequence, it's not apocope. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 13:40, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
The wording is a little unfortunate, maybe "short form of" would be better. DonnanZ (talk) 23:42, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
I assumed it was a simple abbreviation. SemperBlotto (talk) 06:11, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
It is, kind of, but "abbreviation" implies a form like clit. or clit’ whereas "clipping", although a bit jargony, doesn't. Ƿidsiþ 13:51, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

on the phone[edit]

This was deleted as it is unidiomatic in the sense of "talking via a telephone", but there is an older sense of being connected to the telephone system by having a telephone in one's house. This dates back to the time when many people did not have phones at home, and so people wanting to keep in touch would ask each other "Are you on the phone?"

This sense seems idiomatic to me. Thoughts? — Paul G (talk) 06:45, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

All the citations I found on Google Books for on the phone before 1929 were of the unidiomatic sense. I didn't try News. DCDuring (talk) 14:43, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
Same is true of e.g. "on the Internet" ("they live out in the woods and aren't on the Internet yet" vs. "he's been on the Internet all night"). Equinox 16:23, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
And you can also say that a building etc. is "on" mains power. I think it's a normal sense of "on" and if we don't have it covered by "on" then we should. Equinox 16:24, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

-tion[edit]

Discussion moved from Wiktionary:Requests for verification/English.

There's no way this suffix is unproductive. —Globins (talk) 06:55, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

  • Keep – widespread use. Just search Google Books for "termination", "deletion", or "justification". Concerns about the label should be raised elsewhere, maybe at the tea room. —Granger (talk · contribs) 11:08, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
    What will looking for "termination", "deletion" or "justification" in Google Books prove? --Barytonesis (talk) 11:24, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
    That the suffix exists. —Granger (talk · contribs) 11:54, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
    I know it exists, I just think the label "unproductive" is a mislabeling. —Globins (talk) 14:23, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
    Accordingly, I've moved this discussion to the tea room. —Granger (talk · contribs) 16:08, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
  • Isn't this just an "alternative form of" -ation? SemperBlotto (talk) 11:37, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
    Etymologically, it's the other way around: Latin -atio is a metanalysis of -tio when appended to first conjugation verbs. I don't know how it's felt in English, though. --Barytonesis (talk) 12:01, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
    I'd consider it an alternative form in English. -tion vs -ation just depends on whichever one works with the word ending. —Globins (talk) 14:23, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
    @Globins: to go back to your original question: is it truly productive? It might feel that way synchronically, but diachronically the only true suffixation I see is gumption; all the rest are borrowings from Latin or French or whatever. --Trousse à queues (talk) 17:53, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
    How about discombobulation? I think it might be best to remove the unproductive label and add a Usage Notes section that says that it's a variant of -ation that's only used when the word being suffixed already ends in -ate. —Globins (talk) 19:54, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
  • To answer the question of whether this suffix per se is productive, I would say no. I can think of some ways it is counterproductive (e.g. the back-formed noun sense of invite replacing invitation - although this is also an instance of initial-stress-derived nouns being very much productive in English). I do think -ify and so -ification are productive, so that may cause some confustion. Moogsi (talk) 18:14, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

realtalk[edit]

Reading this article about written laughter, I'm not sure about the meaning of “realtalk” in this part:

Take hahaha, which we’ll call basic laughter. It’s actually anything but basic, with the ability to shorten (haha), [...], or replace with an “e” (hehe) — though, realtalk, The New Yorker may have called hehehe a “younger person’s e-laugh,” but ask any actual young person today and his or her response is likely to be “ew.”

Does it simply mean “seriously”, as proposed in the 4th definition on Urban Dictionary? (realtalk - To be serious about something, Being serious about a conversation and/or topic.) Or are there more nuances in it?

Thanks - Cos (talk) 10:00, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

Uh... was my question at the wrong place? badly asked? uninteresting? or nobody knows? I thought I took the effort of asking it the best way that I could, but I'd be happy to learn if I should have done it differently; or maybe I just had bad luck. 😕 (I mean, all the questions around mine seem to have gotten at least a reaction...) - Cos (talk) 12:12, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
I didn't answer because I don't know. Sorry if you felt ignored! —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 13:32, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

Plural of tinda[edit]

What's the plural of tinda (the squash)? Tindas is ok? Fructibus (talk) 12:35, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

tindas is attested. DTLHS (talk) 17:40, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
Seems right to me (I know my way around Indian English). It's also uncountable. —Aryaman (मुझसे बात करो) 22:02, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
@Aryamanarora Do you mean uncountable, or that "tinda" can also be a plural? ("I have many tinda"). DTLHS (talk) 17:20, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
@DTLHS: The first. —Aryaman (मुझसे बात करो) 18:16, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

Someone knowing Telugu and wikisaurus[edit]

Thesaurus:పండు in Category:Thesaurus:Food and drink ? Sobreira ►〓 (parlez) 10:48, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

@Sobreira: I don't know any Telugu, but what's wrong with it? It's just a list of fruits in the hyponyms section. —Aryaman (मुझसे बात करो) 22:00, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
We should really categorise by language if we're going to create foreign thesaurus entries (which we shouldn't, imo). It's bound to get messy otherwise. --Barytonesis (talk) 22:03, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
I hackily made CAT:Hindi Wikisaurus a while back. I don't see any reason not to make foreign language thesauri, we already use {{syn}} and {{ant}} etc. for FL entries. —Aryaman (मुझसे बात करो) 22:06, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
Yes, I noticed that, that's a first step. I'm hesitant about the naming scheme: should it be
The second one doesn't make much sense so we can probably scrape that one. And I know there are opposants to language code. See also Wiktionary:Beer parlour/2017/August § Disambiguate Wikisaurus (thesaurus) entries by language. --Barytonesis (talk) 22:19, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
That was actually my point, Telugu in English.
(I have moved three pages back where they were before, including Thesaurus:coglione. Their being moved is not necessary to illustrate alternative locations; let's avoid any moves that create more mess in the actual thesaurus. --Dan Polansky (talk) 10:00, 15 November 2017 (UTC))
Re: "there are opposants to language code": Sure, and some oppose full names; see Wiktionary:Votes/2017-07/Rename categories. --Dan Polansky (talk) 10:12, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
@User:Sobreira: What are you trying to achieve? Do you want to create new thesaurus entries and have difficulty figuring out how? Or do you just want to remove Thesaurus:పండు from Category:Thesaurus:Food and drink? --Dan Polansky (talk) 10:02, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
As for a change of format of names of thesaurus entries, that really is not a topic for Tea room. --Dan Polansky (talk)
@Dan Polansky, no offense intended, but my pretensions are not the matter. I mean, there are some entries in existence and use nor coherent neither stablished and by doing both would solve (re)naming, subcategorising and creating. If you think the change should be treated somewhere else, please and of course, tell me where. Sobreira ►〓 (parlez) 10:06, 16 November 2017 (UTC)
@Sobreira: You'll probably be interested in this. --Barytonesis (talk) 10:11, 16 November 2017 (UTC)
The naming of non-English Thesaurus entries has so far been fairly consistent with Thesaurus:పండు, that is, use the language's own headword. Recently, some people who had shown almost no interest in contributing content to the Thesaurus thought they would be good in managing the Thesaurus and making structural changes to it, and they created a couple of non-English entries not consistent with previous practice.
The venue for discussing structural changes is WT:Beer parlour. --Dan Polansky (talk) 08:04, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
"some people who had shown almost no interest in contributing content to the Thesaurus thought they would be good in managing the Thesaurus and making structural changes to it": those people... *sigh*. --Barytonesis (talk) 11:37, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
Anyway, I have removed the category from Thesaurus:పండు so the category only shows English thesaurus items. --Dan Polansky (talk) 08:20, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

Quick question re: pronunciation of reactionary[edit]

Entry in question: reactionary. Currently our pronunciation reads /ɹɪˈækʃən(ə)ɹi/, but I'm pretty sure I've heard the pronunciation /ɹɪˈækʃəˌnɛɹi/ (or something along those lines) before, or at least I've personally been reading it that way all this time. Now while I tend to have a reasonably good feel for the language I'm no native speaker, so I'm wondering if any native English speakers can help clear this up? Are there multiple pronunciations? — Kleio (t · c) 17:07, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

Yes, there are. As with many words ending in -ary, there is a British pronunciation in /(ə)ɹi/ and an American pronunciation in /ˌɛɹi/. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 17:37, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
I see, thank you. Thought I was just imagining things. — Kleio (t · c) 17:45, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

子, "master" sense[edit]

What is the origin of the "(great) master" sense for ? Out of curiosity. --POKéTalker (talk) 19:40, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

@Poketalker Probably via “child; offspring” > “person; man; woman” > honorific title for people. It being used as a respectful title was already attested in the oracle bone script. The royal family of the Shang dynasty had the ancestral name 子, which may be related to the word being extended for this use. Wyang (talk) 11:58, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

-genesis[edit]

Why should we analyze this as a suffix and not just genesis? DTLHS (talk) 00:40, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

Not listed as a suffix in Oxford Online, although -meister is, surprisingly enough. This is possibly a candidate for RFD. DonnanZ (talk) 10:39, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
Maybe because it is treated as the noun counterpart of -genic. Extremely common in medicine though; can be attached to any common pathway endpoint or disease entity and still be considered proper: asthmogenesis, carcinomogenesis, pheomelanogenesis, glucocorticosteroidogenesis, depressogenesis, fibrillinogenesis, glycerologenesis, atherothrombogenesis, melanomagenesis, etc. are all attested. Wyang (talk) 11:30, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
But they seem to mean the genesis of something. Usually the first part of a compound is derived from another word. DonnanZ (talk) 15:44, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
It's in the OED. Ƿidsiþ 15:55, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
@Widsith: Can you give us the description in the OED? Concrete proof is obviously needed in the entry. DonnanZ (talk) 16:09, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
"Forming nouns with the sense ‘origin or development (of the thing or a kind specified by the first element)’" Ƿidsiþ 16:15, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
Great. I'm not sure how to add a ref for the OED, I'm not "up to speed" on that one. DonnanZ (talk) 16:25, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

gnagan[edit]

The past is gnōh by B&T, but it is gnōg at Old Engli.sh. Don't know which it is... Anglish4699 (talk) 03:08, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

Probably both. Word-final g and h are more or less in free variation in Old English. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 07:19, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
Yes, however only gnōh is attested for the singular. I have updated the conjugation arguments. Leasnam (talk) 13:54, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

faffy[edit]

What does it mean? Collins says "awkward and time-consuming", fitting with "faff about", but the two examples I found at Citations:faffy seem maybe more like "silly". The English Dialect Dictionary has "gusty, apt to blow about" which is probably a separate, older sense, possibly citable (EDD has one cite of "varry faffy"). - -sche (discuss) 03:19, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

  • I would agree with Collins, but to be honest the meaning strikes me as mostly contextual. That is, if someone was struggling to fill in an information form or something, and said "This is so faffy," it would make perfect sense, but seeing the word in isolation looks pretty weird. Ƿidsiþ 15:55, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
Same. fiddly is a synonym. Equinox 21:45, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
Thank you; I've tried to make an entry. I heard it being used of a hot dog, which seemed weird to me—and since it was being said to the owner of the restaurant, unexpectedly rude, which is why I wondered what the word meant. But I guess the speaker thought the restaurant's way of preparing hot dogs was too complicated/fancy. (In fairness, it kinda was.) - -sche (discuss) 07:17, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
  • Personally, I'm shocked that Equinox or WF haven't made an entry for this word before! I've heard it loads. Anyway, I don't consider it slang or rare, so removed them tags --Spreaderofwords (talk) 19:18, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
  • Look at noun sense 1 of faff (involved process with little perceived benefit). 'Faff about/around' is equivalent to "mess around" or "muck about" in that you don't produce anything. You can extend this to 'faffy' from both related senses. Also agree that this is current in BrE (in the north at least, maybe all over) Moogsi (talk) 23:16, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

Nelkle/Nelklein etymology[edit]

So, I recently noticed that the page for Nelklein, the German word for cloves, does not, in fact, have a Wiktionary page. It is related to Nelke, and should be present as a related word. However, the main focus of my query here is why there is no mention of Näglein in the etymology section for the Nelke or the would-be Nelklein page(s). Nelklein is the direct descendent of Näglein, an archaic form of the word for cloves. Näglein is attested in the liedtext of Brahm's Lullaby and Merck's 1884 Warenlexikon, so I think it should be at least mentioned in the page for Nelke.96.231.152.137 15:56, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

@96.231.152.137: It's spelled Nelke, plural Nelken. —Aryaman (मुझसे बात करो) 12:47, 16 November 2017 (UTC)
Duden has no entry for Nelklein, only Nelke. Looking at the etymology, though, it seems to have originated as a diminutive, so I woud guess it's possible that Nelklein exists as a variant that used -lein instead of -chen and avoided the assimilation/contraction. Chuck Entz (talk) 15:06, 16 November 2017 (UTC)
@Chuck Entz:It is very likely that Nelklein is a diminutive variant, and whilst Duden does not have an entry for Nelklein, it DOES have an entry for Näglein, which appears to be descended itself from the Middle High German word Negellīn.96.231.152.137 18:35, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

emergent evolution[edit]

Definition unclear: where is the notion of "evolution" in that? And what type of evolution are we talking about anyway? Biological evolution? (hint: yes). Besides, a sense should be readded to emergent, since "evolution" is by no means the only word to which "emergent" can be applied in that sense. Cf. "emergent property". --2A02:2788:A4:F44:94A2:2D8F:AC26:6C64 16:14, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

I agree. I have added a sense to emergent and will send it to RFD. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 02:52, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

Votator[edit]

Will you please consider refining the definition for votator to: votator: [Proper Adjective] - a brand name (trademark) for a machine that cools and kneads liquid margarine etc., preparatory to packaging

Thank you very much for your attention and consideration.

No. There is no such thing as a "Proper Adjective" and the word isn't even an adjective. Furthermore there is ample evidence of genericization over the last 30 years. DTLHS (talk) 23:04, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
proper adjective "An adjective, typically capitalized, derived from a proper noun." per Oxford (US) online. Similar definitions can be found in other dictionaries and in language teaching materials. Examples given in other sources are adjectives like American (< America). It is not a very useful classification for us. It seems to be self-evident, at least visually, whether an adjective is a proper one and there are no implications of its being one. I suppose it might have value for persons without sight so that they knew to capitalize the first letter in writing. DCDuring (talk) 01:16, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

be in someone's debt[edit]

Does that deserve an entry? --Barytonesis (talk) 00:05, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

MWOnline thinks in someone's debt at OneLook Dictionary Search is entryworthy. We didn't, but now do have in someone's debt. DCDuring (talk) 01:01, 16 November 2017 (UTC)
in someone's debt should probably be created because it could be construed as meaning the opposite if you're not familiar with the phrase. —Globins (talk) 03:54, 16 November 2017 (UTC)
Thanks to DCDuring for creating the entry. --Barytonesis (talk) 11:54, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
Not with be at least. Equinox 18:51, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

Not a girl???[edit]

So I was watching the Angry Video Game Nerd movie. The Nerd said something along the lines of "I don't want a girlfriend." The Nerd thought the girl he was working with had a crush on him or some crap like that. He said something along the lines of "I don't want a girlfriend." when talking to his friend.

His friend said "But she's not a girl. She's a gamer."

WHAT???

Okay disregard the fact that what he said could be considered sexist. I know what he was suggesting. He was saying that "well she's a gamer just like you and therefore she's not intending to date you" I think. Well, I've never heard someone saying "she's not a GIRL" as a metaphor for "she's not intending to date you"! What is this type of word usage called? And can any of those parts of "not a girl" merit a Wiktionary entry for this meaning? PseudoSkull (talk) 01:25, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

Metonymy. He used the word “girl” for the concept closely associated with the name of a sex: The participation in the sexual market. Palaestrator verborum (loquier) 01:31, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
I think the implication isn't what you said, but rather "girls are not generally gamers, so she isn't a typical girl". Compare "he's not a cop, he's a cool guy" (for someone who does actually work as a policeman). Equinox 01:32, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
Another, longer way of saying this kind of thing: "She not a girl girl; she's a gamer girl."
I've usually interpreted this kind of thing as "Don't think of her as a girl; think of her as a gamer." DCDuring (talk) 03:27, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
It's like the classic example: "I am single because I never speak to girls" / "Sure, what about your sister?" / "She's not a girl" --Spreaderofwords (talk) 19:14, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
I absolutely want to get with Wonderfool's sister. Equinox 22:38, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

neo-reactionary[edit]

The given definition doesn't seem to square with Wikipedia's article very well. I see it as partisan. Equinox 07:00, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

  • I had a go at rewriting this. Ƿidsiþ 07:58, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
  • It is IMO an improvement. Thanks for your effort! Equinox 01:05, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

Template problems on Indonesian Wiktionary[edit]

Just bumped into wt:id:bahasa Belanda and saw a couple Lua errors. Apparently the codes bs and sr are not recognized by the translations template. I tried bos and srp, and same thing. I temporarily substituted bs with hr (Bosnian with Croatian) and sr with sh (Serbian with Serbo-Croatian), but I don't know if this is appropriate. Surely better than leaving "Lua error" in place of a translation if you ask me. Writing here coz my Indo is plain sheet (worse than my Wiki, and seeing the big fail in the above attempt to link to id.wiktionary.org/wiki/bahasa_Belanda with an interwiki link makes this comparison effective I guess :) ), and coz I don't know what their Tea Room (if they have one) is called. What do we do about that problem? Leave the changes I made, or make the template recognize bs and sr? Or are there different codes for bs and sr recognized by that template, and which if so? MGorrone (talk) 11:15, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

This isn't really something we can solve. Indonesian Wiktionary is entirely separate from English Wiktionary, so they have to write and manage their own templates/modules. —Rua (mew) 11:27, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
(Working link: id:bahasa Belanda --Dan Polansky (talk))
@Dan Polansky: any idea where I could write about this to get this problem solved? Is there a Tea Room on Indo Wikt? MGorrone (talk) 13:16, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
This link seems to yield recent changes outside of the mainspace, but I am not sure. id:Wiktionary:Warung_kopi seems it could be the Beer parlour. --Dan Polansky (talk) 13:26, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

be out of the ark[edit]

wordreference gives "out of the ark" as a translation of French ringard. Is that a thing? --Barytonesis (talk) 11:53, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

I'm guessing you already know this, but it's a reference to Noah's ark, as something that repopulated the planet long ago. Equinox 01:00, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

Rhodesian English[edit]

We have a handful of terms like floppy that were used by white Rhodesians, and are still used by them and their descendants in the Rhodesian diaspora, chiefly in South Africa and the UK. I've been labelling them as Zimbabwe, but that's not quite accurate, given that when Zimbabwe replaced Rhodesia, they were no longer used there. Should we have a Category:Rhodesian English to cover this? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 21:26, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

Probably yes. Equinox 01:02, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

pandanus (pandan)[edit]

Is the definition correct, or should it be Pandanus amaryllifolius (Wikipedia) instead?

Wikipedia: Pandanus utilis is native to Madagascar, Mauritius, and the Seychelles, whereas Pandanus amaryllifolius is native to South and Southeast Asia.

Wyang (talk) 06:10, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

That's more of a problem with the definition at screw pine, which is almost universally used as a term for the entire genus, and sometimes for related genera. In the context of use for flavor and fragrance, it would be Pandanus amaryllifolius. In the context of use for weaving mats and in Polynesian culture, it would be Pandanus tectorius, and in the context of use as an ornamental/house plant, Pandanus utilis. Chuck Entz (talk) 07:58, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
Thanks for the change to screw pine. Should the definition of pandanus be modified too, perhaps to read something like: “Any of the palm-like plants in the genus Pandanus; screw pine.”? Wyang (talk) 12:34, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
If Wikispecies-logo.svg Pandanaceae on Wikispecies.Wikispecies is to be believed, any tree in the family Pandanaceae is a screw pine. DCDuring (talk) 03:05, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

Appendix:English similes[edit]

I'm very tempted to RFD this, as it is redundant with Category:English similes, which is far more complete. The creator of the page himself (User:Paul G) said it was a temporary solution.

I'm loath to do that as long as they are red links in there, but I'm not convinced by the results I'm getting on Google books so I don't dare to create anything. To native speakers: which ones do you vouch for? --Barytonesis (talk) 22:24, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

I'm familiar with most of them, but I think the real question is whether they're too SOP to list here or not. Since many of them are common, fixed phrases, that itself might make them worth having. "As phony as a three dollar bill" doesn't take a lot of brain power to decipher, but it is/was a common expression. Andrew Sheedy (talk) 23:57, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
bent as a nine-bob note. If it's absolutely a set phrase, IMO we should have it. You could say "as bent as a seventeen yen note" but nobody does. Equinox 01:01, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

dry pot[edit]

Can this also be a poker term as Wikipedia suggests? Can someone familiar with it add the relevant sense? Cheers. ---> Tooironic (talk) 02:48, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

Added now. Wyang (talk) 03:20, 19 November 2017 (UTC)
Thank you. ---> Tooironic (talk) 03:22, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

Adding spoken language[edit]

Yesterday, I went to my country's National Library and found a book about the Temiar language and decided to put the Swadesh List of the language here. The book was published on 1961, way back before the formation of Malaysia and before the Malay spelling reform. This language is a spoken language which does not have it's own writing system. The book that I found was a documentation of the language and its people. Then, I encounter an online book of the language which is a Temiar-Malay dictionary published in 2014. The dictionary is just a draft and not a full documentation of the language. These two dictionaries had different spellings and that made me wonder if I should use the newer one instead of the old one. Here's the link for both of it: old (there's no full online archive of the book) or this, and new. --Malaysiaboy (talk) 09:30, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

What we do in cases like this is select a standard orthography for the language to use on Wiktionary. Ideally, that standard will be the one that is most used today when speakers actually write their language, or one that is promoted by a governmental institute and therefore is likely to see the most use in the future. The orthography that is chosen and its equivalents in other orthographies should be placed on an About page, like Wiktionary:About Temiar. Entries in orthographies other than the one chosen as a standard can still be on Wiktionary, but simply as alternative spellings pointing to a main entry in the standard orthography. If you want to see examples or need help with this, feel free to ask me. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 01:55, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
In that case, I have to do more research on this then. Thank you! --Malaysiaboy (talk) 03:48, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

みそぎ[edit]

Well, it's Japanese, but it's appearing as an English surname and given name, which I very much doubt. I'm not sure how to give it Japanese labels instead. DonnanZ (talk) 16:28, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

Fixed it. —Globins 19:59, 19 November 2017 (UTC)
I thought of that while I was soaking in the bath. Cheers. DonnanZ (talk) 20:06, 19 November 2017 (UTC)'

syndrome[edit]

Could someone please add the non-pathology (figurative) sense? Thanks. ---> Tooironic (talk) 16:07, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

a-maying is a word but it isn't in the Wiktionary[edit]

How can a-maying be added to wiktionary? It's a form of the word "maying" -- celebrating May. It is used by Milton in his poem "L'Allegro". Issacbaird (talk) 01:07, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

I'm not entirely convinced that Milton isn't simply referring to collecting flowers, but in any case, we did lack that verb sense, which I have now added at the very bottom of may. Note that the a- part is separable, and therefore the whole of a-maying shouldn't be added. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 01:12, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
"separable"? Do you mean 'It's spelled with a hyphen'? Or is it really separable as relating to separable prefixes and separable verbs (compare for example German abfahren and er fährt ab in which ab is separable)?
Anyway, in both cases it should be a matter of opinion (~> WT:RFD) whether or not an entry a-maying could be created. As for 'spelled with a hyphen' there are also several hypenated terms in Category:English words prefixed with non-, Category:English words prefixed with de-, shaped#Derived terms. And for the other case there is for example abfahren. -80.133.104.152 01:46, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

fmz[edit]

What's the deal with these early citations from the 1940s? According to zine the word wasn't coined until 1965. DTLHS (talk) 02:04, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

zine and its coinage (in or around 1965?) has nothing to do with with fmz and its coinage (in or around the 1940s?). -80.133.104.152 04:06, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
The quote in fmz supposedly from 1943 uses the word "zine". DTLHS (talk) 04:17, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
Ok. The given link, efanzines.com/FWD/FWD31.htm , has more usages of zine and it's said to be from the Futurian War Digest Oct 1943 Vol: IIII No: I. If the transcription is correct, than zine with etymonline.com/word/zine as reference as well as www.dictionary.com/browse/zine?s=t aren't correct. The best google book has seem to be sources stating that Futurian War Digest did appear around that time. -80.133.104.152 07:15, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

ungird[edit]

Is English ungird from Mid. Eng. ungirden from Old Eng. ongyrdan? Some of the quotes on this Middle English Dictionary are in the late 1400s (1470s and on). I just don't know for sure if it made it to English by this way. Anglish4699 (talk) 17:31, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

Some dictionaries, like Miriam Webster connect the modern word to Middle English; others, like Century say it's a new creation from un- + gird. I don't see why we can't represent both theories--the modern meaning certainly reflects the latter. However, do you think we should move ongyrdan to ungyrdan ? Leasnam (talk) 21:02, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
I just took a peek at the entry and sense 1 is what is represented by the ME word, so I think it's safe to connect it. However, we could simply leave it as it is now, showing both Leasnam (talk) 21:09, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
Okay, thanks for your work. I just wasn't sure about it. About ongyrdan, it should be moved to ungyrdan if it best be there. I didn't know if the Old English prefix un- was also for verbs, but I did know that there was the prefix on- from Old English ond-, and-, so I put it as "ongyrdan" (see etymology 2 for on-). Speaking on this with a broader view, this can also be applied to other on- verbs such as onbindan. I'll move the entry myself for ongyrdan. Again, thanks! Anglish4699 (talk) 21:42, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
Taking a closer look, I do see some un- verbs... can't believe that got by me >_< Anglish4699 (talk) 21:55, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

looking for a word[edit]

Hi. I'm looking for a word that describes two types of verbs in English.

Type 1: come, graduate, quit, die
One CANNOT say, "I have come for two hours." "I have graduated for two years." "I have quit for two weeks." "He died five years."
Type 2: be, know, work, sleep
One CAN say, "I have been a lawyer for two weeks." "I have known him for two years." "I have worked here for two days." "I have slept in this room for a whole fortnight."

How would we describe these two types of verbs in English? Chinese does not distinguish between the two. ---> Tooironic (talk) 07:11, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

(btw, graduate can be type 2 in Indian English) —AryamanA (मुझसे बात करेंयोगदान) 13:42, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
I feel like type 1 is dynamic/fientive verbs and type 2 is stative verbs, but it may be more nuanced than that. —Mahāgaja (fomerly Angr) · talk 14:14, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
punctual vs. durative Crom daba (talk) 14:51, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
Stative verb/durative verb, state verb/action verb. DCDuring (talk) 19:43, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

shop/store and luggage/baggage[edit]

As far as I know, 'shop' is BrE and 'store' is AmE; likewise, 'luggage' is BrE and 'baggage' is AmE. Is this not accurate? Our entries don't reflect this right now. ---> Tooironic (talk) 07:32, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

As an AmE speaker, I'd say calling something a "shop" gives it more of a quaint, cozy feel than "store", and that many of the definitions besides #1 (An establishment that sells goods or services to the public...) are entirely current in modern AmE. As for "luggage" versus "baggage", I'm a little surprised to find that TSA (the US airport security guys) uses baggage at TSA.gov; in my idiolect, I'd always use "luggage" or "bags", and leave "baggage" for the negative sense (#2.) The Washington Post article "The secret life of baggage: Where does your luggage go at the airport?" uses all three, luggage, baggage, and bags, and I can't tell much distinction in how they're used. I don't know what's going on in BrE, but both luggage and baggage seem to be current in AmE.--Prosfilaes (talk) 08:35, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
I agree with most of Prosfilaes's intuitions. A shop is smaller and cozier than a store; Barnes and Nobles is a bookstore, but the little place downtown with the cat and the old man who smells like pipe tobacco is a bookshop. I use luggage and baggage interchangeably. It may be, however, that the American usages of store and baggage aren't found in en-GB, so that they could be labeled {{lb|en|US}}, but shop and luggage probably shouldn't be labeled {{lb|en|UK}}. —Mahāgaja (fomerly Angr) · talk 08:58, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
In my experience baggage is limited to the second sense in AmE. —AryamanA (मुझसे बात करेंयोगदान) 13:40, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
Per Collins COBUILD (via Farlex, via OneLook): "In British English, both these words refer to the bags and suitcases that you take with you when you travel, together with their contents. Luggage is more common than baggage. / In American English, luggage refers to empty bags and suitcases. Baggage refers to bags and suitcases with their contents." I agree with almost all the differences between baggage and luggage in US English and also with the synonymy of the two words in most people's idiolects. DCDuring (talk) 20:03, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
Hmm, I agree that it's only luggage, not baggage, when it's empty (I'd buy new luggage, but never new baggage), but when it's full I'm pretty sure I can use either term for it. —Mahāgaja (fomerly Angr) · talk 20:38, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
"Store" may be used for large chains etc. in the UK: "a DIY store" (I don't think Americans say "DIY" but "home improvement"...?), "a superstore". A little retail outlet is a shop. Equinox 18:47, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

Russian "возвращение"[edit]

Hello! I'm from the Thai Wikipedia and I have a problem concerning the translation of the name of a Russian medal, Medal "For the Return of Crimea" (Медаль «За возвращение Крыма»). My question is: what does the term "возвращение" (or "return") in the name of this medal actually mean?

  1. Coming/going back (as in "the return to innocence", "the return of Jafar", "the return of Godzilla", etc)?
  2. Giving/bringing/delivering/sending back (as in "the return of property")?
  3. Or else?

Thanks a million! --หมวดซาโต้ (talk) 12:54, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

@Atitarev Wyang (talk) 13:02, 22 November 2017 (UTC)