User talk:Barytonesis

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I don't think clad is a suffix. It's already a word of its own. Certainly something like "snow-clad" is not a confix but a compound. Equinox 23:41, 16 January 2017 (UTC)

I'd suggest a "Derived terms" section at the clad entry. Unfortunately, I don't think there's a way to make it automatically update to include new future terms, when they are only compounds. This seems to be something that happens for prefixes and suffixes only. Equinox 02:54, 17 January 2017 (UTC)

Previous account[edit]

Hi. As you stated, this isn't your first account. Why do you no longer use that account? Were you perma-banned? --Victar (talk) 20:43, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

@Victar: is there a way to contact you privately? --Barytonesis (talk) 20:49, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

Your edit[edit]

Why would you make this edit to the "Related"section ? — Saltmarsh. 04:11, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

@Saltmarsh: Because I don't see the point of keeping the source word there when it has been moved to the etymology, which explains how the two words are "related". However, I reinstated the gloss "nation", which I shouldn't have removed. I prefer having a tidy list of "derived terms". --Barytonesis (talk) 11:54, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
Please leave the link to "έθνος". — Saltmarsh. 04:00, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

grc-ipa-rows to grc-IPA[edit]

Hi, when you convert {{grc-ipa-rows}} to {{grc-IPA}}, please remember to add a positional parameter indicating the length of alphas, iotas, and upsilons if the word contains them. (It isn't needed in the case of alpha with iota subscript or when any of those vowels has the circumflex, because then they're unambiguously long.) Thanks! —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 11:56, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

@Angr: sorry, I'm often too lazy to be bothered... Although I just noticed the breve and the macron are readily available in the editing panel, so I don't have a good excuse! Do you reckon it would be possible to add all the diacritic combinations as well? --Barytonesis (talk) 12:24, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
Which ones aren't there? —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 12:32, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
@Angr: ᾰ̓, ᾰ́, the iota of ἵππος with a breve, and the like. --Barytonesis (talk) 12:48, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
For {{grc-IPA}} you don't need those; you can use the spacing breve and macron in the editing panel under "For {{grc-IPA}}". For other purposes, it's easiest to use {{chars}}. For example, {{subst:chars|grc|a^)}} gets you ᾰ̓ and {{subst:chars|grc|i^(/}} gets you ῐ̔́. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 13:11, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

Broken declensions[edit]

Thanks for creating Πασικλῆς (Pasiklês) and Ὑψικλῆς (Hupsiklês), but please do not leave broken templates behind. It's an ongoing issue that nouns in -κλῆς (-klês) do not function correctly, but it will take some work by @Erutuon and me to fix it. —JohnC5 05:06, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

All right. I thought it was better to do it that way so we wouldn't have to change the template later on, but it sure is detrimental to the reader. --Barytonesis (talk) 14:23, 28 June 2017 (UTC)
As soon as we get that bug fixed, we'll switch them all over. —JohnC5 14:42, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

Babel box[edit]

It would be helpful to the community if you added to your user page a Babel box or similar indication of your familiarity with the languages you work with. No pressure, but it would be helpful. Thanks. --WikiTiki89 15:40, 6 July 2017 (UTC)

@Wikitiki89: I prefer not to right now. --Barytonesis (talk) 13:12, 8 July 2017 (UTC)


Hi! Why did you think my change to the entry was incorrect? Thanks! Ester Epantaleo (talk) 21:07, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

You were right that having the link to candelarum twice was useless. However you removed the closing bracket in the process. --Barytonesis (talk) 21:36, 20 July 2017 (UTC)


Hi! I edited the entry because generally etymologies are written as follows: From wordA, from wordB, from wordC, etc. See also [...]. Cognates include [...]. This kind of structure makes it easier for readers to quickly understand the text, especially for foreign speakers like me. Would you be happy with a modification like so?

From Proto-Indo-European *dʰǵʰemelo-, from *dʰéǵʰōm (earth). See also humus. Cognate with Ancient Greek χθαμαλός (khthamalós), Phrygian ζεμελως (zemelōs, man).

I am developing a tool that automatically parses etymologies. For this tool, a standard structure helps recognizing ancestors, descendants, and cognates. I would be happy to discuss different possibilities :). Thanks, Ester Epantaleo (talk) 21:14, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

I understand, but the result was inelegant. --Barytonesis (talk) 21:36, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

User page[edit]

By all means create a user page - but with something useful on it, ideally Babel information. SemperBlotto (talk) 04:51, 23 July 2017 (UTC)

je te dis merde[edit]

It's a real phrase. Please restore it how it was. Equinox 18:08, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

I don't really agree, but as you will. @Amgine, what do you think? --Barytonesis (talk) 18:12, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

Verb phrases with "to"[edit]

"bring oneself to", "wish to", etc. Note that the "to" is the infinitive of the verb that follows, so often such entries are not suitable, in the same way we wouldn't have "desire to". Equinox 13:28, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

Pontic Greek Reply[edit]

I know not how to respond to a commentary on my user page, so I shall inscribe it here:

"== Pontic Greek ==

Hello. I know nothing about Pontic Greek, but some entries you've created make me wonder:

It is from a song written in Pontic dialect. Dialects of Pontic vary considerably by geographical area of dialectal origin; grammar, vocabulary and other changes may occur.

"On another note, φραγέλλιον (phragéllion) as you had it originally was plain wrong: you cannot have two pitch/stress markers on the same word (save for cases of enclisis). Maybe it was just a typo, but it should have been blindingly obvious. Are you sure your Babel "el-3" isn't an overestimation? --Barytonesis (talk) 20:01, 22 September 2017 (UTC)"

I know not the intricacies of Polytonic Greek script, neither do I understand how to create efficaciously nor perfectly an Ancient Greek page- hence it was not blindingly obvious to me the typo in pitch and stress. I added it to assist a Coptic etymology.

As for my knowledge of Greek? I can read, speak, and write, not perfectly, rather sufficiently. I assumed that "el-3" referred to Modern Greek and not of its progenitor, Ancient Greek, to which the extent of my knowledge reaches to that of the Koine in the Greek bible translation.

Moreover- I find it pretentious to cast doubt on one's abilities- I view it as demeaning.

Quick reminder about templates[edit]

[1]Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 18:25, 29 September 2017 (UTC)

@Metaknowledge: I haven't actually forgotten; I do that on purpose when I'm lazy and don't want to bother with the plurals. To me, libre arbitre is essentially uncountable, but you probably could find instances of libres arbitres. --Barytonesis (talk) 21:13, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
You should never do that on purpose; templates exist for a reason. Maybe it should have a way to show usually uncountable, though. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 22:29, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
@Metaknowledge: Point taken. Yes, that would be nice. --Barytonesis (talk) 12:26, 30 September 2017 (UTC)


Glad to see you're undoing you own edits. I should post some of your fantastic edits.

@Ate Nike: Be my guest. --Barytonesis (talk) 09:08, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
@Barytonesis: see "fantastique". You posted a Greek etymology, as appropriate. Good boy. Keep up the good work. You'll learn something.
@Ate Nike: Thank you daddy. --Barytonesis (talk) 09:23, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
@Barytonesis: any time

lol, this is a great way to handle (what appears to be) a vandal. —Aryaman (मुझसे बात करो) 01:24, 17 October 2017 (UTC)


Your habit of creating extra accounts is annoying. Not only does it make it unnecessarily difficult to track your edits and for casual editors to recognise your identity, it gives admins a lot of extra work in patrolling your edits (yes, every edit made by a new user must be patrolled unless that user is specifically agreed as being trustworthy). Please do not make any more socks, and list the ones that you have made on your user page or talk page. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 01:22, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

@Metaknowledge: All right, I've drawn up that list. Also, as I'd like to help in fighting off vandalism, would you be so kind as to answer to that post? --Barytonesis (talk) 08:10, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
Thanks, they are now all autopatrolled accounts. As for rollbacker rights, that is nominated by one admin and approved by another, like autopatrolling. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 16:50, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
@Metaknowledge: Thanks, and sorry for the inconvenience. --Barytonesis (talk) 18:24, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
  • I wouldn't worry too much about creating socks. You wouldn't be the first. --P5Nd2 (talk) 20:44, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
    The difference is that I would feel a twinge of regret before blocking Barytonesis. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 22:23, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
Out of interest, why do you have so many accounts? What are they for? Equinox 23:43, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
@Equinox: Nothing in particular; I just like the ring of those I've created. Also I like to see whether I'm treated differently as a new user than when I'm using my main account. --Barytonesis (talk) 10:11, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

Please use request templates in the entry[edit]

When you RfDed [[academic institution]] you apparently did so directly on the relevant RFD page. If you had inserted {{rfd}} (or {{rfd-sense}}) and click on the little "+" you would have accomplished some things beyond the mere posting of the RfD:

  1. providing a warning about the entry to (passive) users
  2. providing an indication of a discussion in progress to active users.
  3. facilitating going back and forth between and entry and such discussion.

The same applies to RfVs, RfMs, and RfCs. DCDuring (talk) 15:28, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

@DCDuring: sorry about that, thanks for the reminder. --Barytonesis (talk) 18:24, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

Etymology of "evil eye"[edit]

Please explain your reversion of my edit. The Anglo-Saxon words "evil" and "eye" have no relation to the Latin words "oculus" and "malus" that doesn't predate the divergence of Proto-Indo-European. If this expression is a calque, i.e. a direct translation of a Latin phrase, then the etymology should reflect that. As it stands, it implies a genetic relationship among the components, which is false on its face. sopholatre (talk) 18:39, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

@Texas Dervish: (or @sopholatre?) you're of course right to point out that "evil" and "eye" don't literally come out from the Latin words "malus" and "oculus"; but you'll notice that I haven't simply reverted you: I added that it's a calque. Or are you suggesting that it isn't a calque either, but a totally independent formation? --Barytonesis (talk) 18:55, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
Sorry. WP listed it as a revert, so I jumped to conclusions w/o re-reading the page. I retract the question. Thanks for clearing that up. sopholatre (talk) 20:35, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
IDK why "sopholatre" still shows up in my .sig; I had a name change approved on my account years ago. It shows up correctly on WikiPedia, tho. Is there someone here I should talk to about that? sopholatre (talk) 16:02, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
Try Special:Preferences. Maybe you have different prefs here and on WP. Equinox 16:17, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
Aha! That did it. Thanks! Texas Dervish (talk) 17:48, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

Etym templates[edit]

{{inh}} v {{der}} in απατεώνας

  • {{inh}}: "This template is intended for terms that have an unbroken chain of inheritance from the source term in question"
  • {{der}} "This template is a "catch-all" that is used when neither {{inherited}} nor {{borrowed}} is applicable".

Surely {{inh}} was the correct one :) — Saltmarsh. 06:31, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

@Saltmarsh: well, technically no: {{inh}} should theoretically be used only for words that are the direct phonetic outcome (through sound laws) of another word. As it says on the documentation page: "This template should not be used for terms that were reformed morphologically during their history. A morphological change breaks the chain of inheritance."
That's what happened here: the "-ας" ending has been added to regularise the declension pattern. And since there has been extensive analogical levelling of that sort from Ancient Greek to Modern Greek, very few words can actually be considered "inherited" if we stick strictly to what the template says (and we should IMO, although I'm still unsure of the way to go with this.) --Barytonesis (talk) 08:19, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
Thanks - I know nearly nothing about linguistics, and often have difficulty in interpreting a dictionary etymology - so it will nearly always be safer say "derived". Would you say that "inherited is safe with ὁδός > οδός and βαθύς > βαθύς ? — Saltmarsh. 16:22, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
@Saltmarsh: I think they could be inherited, but I'm not sure. {{R:DSMG}} says these are scientific terms ("λόγ." = λόγιος); that means they were probably not part of the "common stock" of words used by ordinary people, so they might have been reborrowed from Ancient Greek. But that's hard to tell, because the history of the Greek language has been so continuous and unitary... And Greek has remained much closer to Ancient Greek than French to Latin for example, where it's usually fairly to distinguish between inherited words and borrowings. All in all I think the distinction is less relevant, useful and wieldy in Greek than for other languages. --Barytonesis (talk) 10:36, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

About the recent addition to Wiktionary:Wanted entries[edit]

You misspelled заёбанный (zajóbannyj) for which we already have an article. (The error is understandable, since native speakers also sometimes misspell it: a person who is cursing is not necessarily paying attention to the finer points of grammar and orthography.) Tetromino (talk) 13:25, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

@Tetromino: I found it here, actually. --Barytonesis (talk) 13:27, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

Mycenaean font[edit]

Mycenaean appears as blank squares on my PC (Windows 10). While I only have a peripheral interest - is there a source of a suitable font, and do you recommend my getting it? — Saltmarsh. 15:57, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

@Saltmarsh: sorry for the belated answer. I'm sorry, I don't know how to add fonts; I'm just happy it works here without my having to do anything. Perhaps you can ask @Angr? --Barytonesis (talk) 11:38, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
@Saltmarsh: There's a free font called Aegean that's available here; it includes Mycenaean characters. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 12:20, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
Thanks - here goes! — success, thanks again — Saltmarsh. 15:27, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

"Citations" with links to dictionaries[edit]

Don't you think those would be more useful in a References section? DTLHS (talk) 23:25, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

@DTLHS: done. --Barytonesis (talk) 23:32, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

Greek entries[edit]

Are there any other points you would like to raise with the format of Greek entries? — Saltmarsh. 12:29, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

@Saltmarsh: Yes, but I'm already spending too much time on Wiktionary so I don't want to get too invested in that. Furthermore, I have neither the computing skills nor the linguistic knowledge required to get us where I'd like to. That said, I'll try and give a few ideas.
  1. The Greek infrastructure doesn't rely enough on the common infrastructure and the cross-linguistic templates. This sometimes causes redundancies: {{el-seasons-of-the-year}} vs. {{table:seasons/el}}; {{el-days-of-the-week}} vs. {{table:days of the week/el}} (cf. {{table:days of the week}}); {{el-derivation}} can be replaced by {{suffixusex}} and {{prefixusex}}, etc.
  2. Another thing I find objectionable are the various templates such as {{el-R-arrow}}, {{el-link-ttip}}, {{el-lit}}, which in my view give off a rather "tinselly" impression. Also, I still think we could do without {{el-model-page}}, but I don't want to press the point too much.
Sorry, that sounded harsher than I wanted to; I have trouble writing in an agreeable way, as you've already noticed :p. Rest assured that I appreciate all the work you're doing! I just think the infrastructure needs a little brush-up/clean-up, and that we have to keep the wikicode and the appearance as simple and uncluttered as possible.
P. S.: I've noticed that {{el-freq-HNC}}, {{el-example}}, {{el-link-1}}, {{el-link-4-nd}} and {{el-ref-1}} are unused. --Barytonesis (talk) 22:22, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
  • No need to apologise, it is easy with this mode of communication to take and give offence. I'll work through your comments (merci bien) over the next week or two. I am afraid that my democratic principles are often overridden by arachistic tendencies! But agree with much of what you say. In no particular order:
1) The frequency templates have gone. Created years ago - and no-longer added to new entries, although I still think it useful for users to have some idea of frequencies.
2) The remaining templates in your PS are used/useful in the one page where they appear.
3) {{el-R-arrow}} was created long before {{suffixusex}}. And {{el-derivation}} streamlines {{el-R-arrow}} it was created in ignorance of {{suffixusex}} etc. These new templates can now be used.
4) I think that {{el-link-ttip}} serves a useful purpose. It satisfies the obligation, under our rules, to show transcriptions, and is used where horizontal space is limited.
Saltmarsh. 07:31, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

To all[edit]

I'll be away for some time. --Barytonesis (talk) 20:40, 21 November 2017 (UTC)



Swadesh lists[edit]

Inflected forms[edit]

  • for Ancient Greek: just by clicking a red link in inflection tables, have an entire entry already prepared: complete morphological description, IPA pronunciation (hence the importance of documenting vowel lengths in inflection tables as well), etc. The only thing left to the editor would be a cursory check. Wouldn't be as fast as a bot, but much more reliable. (problem: what if a single form covers different items of a paradigm?)



I thought you self-blocked to get other, non-addictive things done, but you're still chugging along. Can't we just unblock you? Equinox 20:37, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

Don't encourage him ;-) He needs to focus on stuff outside Wiktionary, for a while anyway. --Robbie SWE (talk) 20:51, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
  • I've unblocked you. This is a farce; if you want to get away from Wiktionary, you can do that yourself, but putting up requests is really not efficient for any of us. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 19:11, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

Ambox blue question.svg
This blocked user is asking that his or her block be reviewed:

Barytonesis (block logactive blockscontribsdeleted contribsedit filter loguser creation logchange block settingsunblock)

Request reason:

I mistakenly logged in one of my blocked accounts, now my IP is blocked as well -_-
I gave you IP block exemption rights, hopefully that works. —AryamanA (मुझसे बात करेंयोगदान) 21:04, 2 December 2017 (UTC)
@AryamanA: it doesn't :3 --Barytonesis (talk) 21:51, 2 December 2017 (UTC)
@AryamanA: actually, maybe it does, but I dare not log in a blocked account again just to check. Thank you! --Barytonesis (talk) 11:31, 4 December 2017 (UTC)


Hi there. In the definition of this word on the French Wiktionary, what do they mean by the word "menu"? SemperBlotto (talk) 11:04, 11 January 2018 (UTC) (I have guessed at a translation of the word)

@SemperBlotto: Hi. I think it means "fine sand" (menu is the old-fashioned adjective, not the noun), but it would be archaic/obsolete (the usual term is simply sable fin). See this where it's opposed to "gros sable"/"gravier". --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 11:46, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

A derivative is...[edit]

Sorry for misplacing the assimilation expressions. (I checked various help pages and I still cannot get it in my head.) In greek, it goes like this: shopping, shopper = derivative (παράγωγο-root+some affix). shopkeeper = compound (σύνθετο) & toy shop = expression... a νόθο σύνθετο which never realized. That is my excuse. Finally, I presume that the english call 'related' the greek ομόρριζα (same root). Would be great to have a list of terms greek-latin-eng-fre-...etc. There are slight differences e.g.parasyntheto and παρασύνθετο are not the same... very confusing. Thank you for placing them correctly. sarri.greek (talk) 14:15, 23 January 2018 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek: There's has been a discussion recently about this: Wiktionary:Beer parlour/2018/January § Listing of compounds under Derived terms or Related terms ?
The consensus is to use "derived" in a broad sense, and consider compounds as derived terms. Personally, I like to add expressions as well. I prefer to use "related terms" when it's only really necessary, i.e. when there's no obvious way to derive one word from the other, and the relationship is too distant. For example, see French tordre: I've put tourment as a related term, because there's no way in French to get from tordre to tourment simply with composition or affixation.
Yes, maybe we should have a comparative table of linguistic terms. For now, I'm trying to build up the CAT:el:Linguistics, CAT:el:Phonology and CAT:el:Phonetics; these are really interesting words.
By the way, thanks for this; I don't know why I put προσομοίωση as a translation. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 17:36, 23 January 2018 (UTC)
Owww it was you? About the splitting of compounds: Pleeease vote for compounds separate. Alone. They are SO MANY. Never mind the linguistic arguments. It is aesthetically awful all this crowding. See el:μάτι? how nice? Thanks X. sarri.greek (talk) 17:44, 23 January 2018 (UTC)