User talk:Crom daba

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Again, welcome! --WikiTiki89 19:39, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

Appendix:Proto-Slavic/gromъ[edit]

Thank you for adding this page. Just a tip: adding transliterations in the {{l}} template for most Cyrillic languages is no longer necessary because they are now automated. --WikiTiki89 19:39, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

Language code[edit]

I've come across some edits where you have ge as the language code for German, instead of de. It should have been obvious that something was wrong, just from the red "Module error" in place of the template in the entry. I would strongly recommend clicking the "Show preview" button and checking for errors before clicking on "Save page". I catch all kinds of typos and absent-minded errors in my own edits by doing that.

As for the language codes, they're listed at the List of Languages. You can verify by hovering over the link to see what comes after the "#", and by looking at the categories on the bottom of the page for those templates that add categories. Thanks! Chuck Entz (talk) 23:16, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the tip. I always searched for language codes in the ISO 639 appendix pages, this should save me some time. Crom daba (talk) 06:19, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

germanizmi[edit]

Ako želiš mogu generirati listu svih germanizama u sh-om iz HJP-a, skupa s kosturima članaka (izgovor, etimologija, fleksija ali bez definicija). Uglavnom su to regionalizmi koje je zeznuto prevesti pa ih ja (kao chief sh editor, jelte :D) izbjegavam stvoriti... Vidim da si zapeo za to područje, pa ako ti se radî na tome samo javi. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 12:17, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

Zvuči dobro, no reci mi, kako da se uključim u to automagično generisanje članaka i slično, osećam se kao da jedini obrađujem motikom zemlju dok su svi oko mene upregli volove odavno. Crom daba (talk) 13:25, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
Lol. Ma nema opcije za automagično generiranje članaka - većina su ovdje programeri pa im nije problem napraviti takve alate. Ja mogu takve članke ili 1) izgeneriti preko bota da izgledaju poput ovih: cijeđ, oplećje, rubnik, rucelj - dakle sve osim definicija fali (koje bi ti onda nadupunio); ili 2) wiki kȏd članaka prebaciti na neku pomoćnu podstranicu odakle bi ti radio copy/paste u članke u glavnom namespace-u. Ne znam što ti više odgovara? --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 13:40, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
Kao što bi statistika mogla predvideti, ja sam takođe programer(mada početnik), baš sam pre koji dan gledao format direktnog linka na natuknicu u HJPu te da li bi se mogao automatski referensirati kako je to slučaj sa duden.de citatima. U principu nema razlike da li ću to raditi preko podstranice ili drukčije, učini kako god ti je zgodnije; no biću zauzet idućih dana pa ne počinji još (ili počni ako tebi zjapeće stranice bez definicija kao gore priložene ne izazivaju egzistencijalnu strepnju).
Nego nevezano za ovo, postoji li način da se mongolsko pismo ubaci na stranicu? Trenutno kada ubaciš unikod karaktere iz raspona za mongolski u {{term}} tag koji ih ište, izađu ti nekakve rune i akronimi na arkanom jeziku vikiadministracije, jel potrebno da administrator dozvoli taj raspon unutar {{term}} taga ili šta? Znam da je ovo pismo tehnološki nezgodno zbog smera pisanja, ali kužim da bi bilo dobro imati te reči makar kao niz karaktera koji će jednog lepog dana biti prikazan vertikalno kako je tengri zamislio. Crom daba (talk) 14:55, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
Imam cijeli HJP sajt skinut lokalno (i štoviše konvertiran u DSL format kojeg može čitati GoldenDict) tako da već imam spremljena mapiranja između ID-ova i lema. Moglo bi se automatski referencirati tako da napravim ogromnu hash tablicu u Lua koja bi sadržavala to mapiranje (nekih 116k lema) i koja bi se pozivala iz šablona - no za tim nema potrebe. Ako želiš mogu ti poslati pa da se sam igraš s tim. Trebalo bi ti znanje regularnih izraza za lakšu manipulaciju stringovima a za upload članaka imaš već gotove biblioteke (ja sve radim u C#). Izgenerirat ću pa ti javim kad bude gotovo.
Administratori samo mogu brisati stranice i blokirati korisnike, ne mogu ništa drugo. Ne prikazuje im se ništa drukčije nego drugima. Što se tiče mongolskog ne znam točno na što misliš - može neki primjer? --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 15:14, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
Zanimljivo.
Recimo da imaš [script needed](køkygyr, cowhide water- or wine-cask)) i misliš ubaciti ᠺᠥᠺᠦᠺᠦᠷ u dotični tag, ali kad to učiniš javlja se nekakva greška koja te privremeno blokira od editovanja stranice, pretpostavljam zato da neko ne bi ubacivao neke nasumične unikod karaktere, ali ako je moguće koristiti klinasto pismo pretpostavljam da nije teško ni za mongolski. Crom daba (talk) 15:46, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
ᠺᠥᠺᠦᠺᠦᠷ(køkygyr, cowhide water- or wine-cask) - pa meni se ovo normalno prikazuje, isto kao i ᠺᠥᠺᠦᠺᠦᠷ. Ne vidim gdje je problem :/ --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 16:35, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
Doista mi radi normalno sad =\ Greška mi se bila javila na یاسا, možda sam ukucao neki parametar šablona pogrešno... Izašla mi je poruka od abuse filter-a da je to situacija "strips L3" bez ikakvog linka na to šta bi taj strips L3 bio, proguglah to i nađoh samo ovu stranicu http://www.cooldictionary.com/words/Special%3AAbuseFilter.wiktionary koja opet vodi na nepostojeću wiki/ stranicu. Biće verovatno da mi je unikod iscureo iz || zagrada te da je to napravilo grešku.
Ajd drago mi je da smo razriješili taj mistični problem. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 18:44, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

OK, bude večeras. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 10:11, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Popis germanizama je tu i tu (razbijeno na dvije podstranice inače baca grešku oko potrošnje memorije). Budem ja to poluautomatski izgenerirao tijekom vikenda pa ti obrati pažnju na sve stranice kojima fale prijevodi. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 09:05, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

U vezi ovoga - kontekstne labele trebaju biti u istoj liniji s prijevodima, te ih je potrebno duplicirati za svaku liniju čak i ako se odnose na sva značenja. Format je fiksiran, botovi to validiraju, a uniformnost je važna jer podatke iz baze reiskorištavaju i ostali (za custom rječnike, strojno prevođenje itd.) Vidim da ti dobro ide, dodat ću malo kasnije još članaka da ti ne bude dosadno... --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 21:16, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

U redu. --Crom daba (talk) 08:25, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

-лах[edit]

Me and Metaknowledge have fixed your entry some. —CodeCat 15:51, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

Thank you very much! It's hard to get around these templates and such after a long hiatus.
Tangentially related to this, I could use some help with this template I put together, how can I prevent the entry using this template from being added to lemma categories? It would be nice if only the canonical variant was listed so as to avoid cluttering categories with harmonic variants.Crom daba (talk) 16:03, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
Though I'm not sure what lemma categories you mean, I'm going to guess that the "harmonic variants" category is the culprit. This is because you used the template {{deftempboiler}}, which is old and a bit rickety. I've updated your template now. —CodeCat 16:08, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
I appreciate your effort, but it's not exactly what I had in mind. My idea is that -лэх, for exaple, should not be placed in Category:Mongolian_lemmas nor Category:Mongolian_suffixes but only in Category:Harmonic_variants or something to that effect, same as findere belongs in Category:Latin_non_lemma_forms and Category:Latin_verb_forms and not in Category:Latin_verbs Crom daba (talk) 16:16, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
All entries should be in either the "lemmas" category or the "nonlemmas" category, and which category an entry goes in is determined by the part-of-speech category. The template {{mn-suffix}} includes the category Category:Mongolian suffixes, and "suffixes" is a lemma category, so that's how it happens. To resolve this, you'll have to use a different template, and choose another part-of-speech category to put these entries into. Category:Mongolian suffix forms seems to fit fairly well. —CodeCat 16:20, 15 August 2016 (UT
I suspected this was the case but made a false conclusion. So how does the head template work, can I put anything as a part of speech or will only arguments from a given set pass? And if arbitrary arguments are allowed, how do I indicate that it belongs among non-lemmas? And finally, is there a rule against putting 'suffix' in the heading and using a head template other that 'suffix' (for example 'harmonic variant')
Anything will work, but the template prefers names it knows and will put entries in Category:head tracking/unrecognized pos otherwise. An unrecognised part-of-speech, naturally, can't be categorised as either a lemma or nonlemma, which is why this cleanup category exists. A list of valid lemma/nonlemma categories is found at the top of Module:headword.
There is no strict rule against a mismatch between header and category, since for example we still have "verb forms" under a "Verb" heading like the Latin example you gave. But it's definitely preferred to use existing categories: categories which {{poscatboiler}}/{{auto cat}} recognise, and for which a "by language" category also exists, like Category:Verb forms by language. "suffix forms" is recognised by both Module:headword and by {{poscatboiler}}/{{auto cat}}, so you can use that. —CodeCat 16:39, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
Alright, that's all I need to know. Thanks.

-зүй[edit]

If you want a page deleted please mark it with {{delete}}, otherwise it's likely nobody will notice it. DTLHS (talk) 03:10, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

Alright, thanks!Crom daba (talk) 10:36, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

Relation between Mongolic -мал and Common Turkic -mïš[edit]

Hi do you have any source about etymology of -мал? it seems to sound close to -mïĺ, so called earlier form of Common Turkic -mïš. See Turkish -mış, -miş which has the same, actually even more functions, and is also mainly used for evidentiality. Could there be a relation? --Anylai (talk) 19:32, 4 September 2016 (UTC)

Here are some notes on the suffix
  1. The Written Mongol form is -mal (rather than -mil)
  2. Original semantic was probably closer to result nouns than adjectives
    barimal and bicimel originally meant 'statue' and 'scripture', but came to mean 'moulded' and 'written' (from bari- 'mould' and bici- 'write')
  3. In some cases b- in suffixes may surface as m- and -r- may surface as -l- so the original form could potentially also be bal/bar/mar
  4. Barimal is also supposedly a (Para-)Mongolic borrowing in Turkic as *balbal, attested in eight century Old Turkic already, and also present as a Bulgaric loan in slavic as bъlvanъ/bal(ъ)vanъ
  5. There's another suffix, -buri, that forms process nouns that can also potentially surface as -мал in Khalkha, but it is obviously unrelated

If there's a connection it would have to be very ancient. Crom daba (talk) 20:53, 4 September 2016 (UTC)

Just comparing it with -лаг, are you sure then it is from -lïg? As for -mïš, you can find many types of words created with this suffix. Adjectives being nouns is very typical in Turkish, so you get both nouns and adjectives. Such as geçmiş meaning "past" (noun) and "previous" (adjective), it is also evidential form for geç-. I am inadequate at why Mongolic l would surface as r, or vice-versa. So -лаг can also be from -rag? --Anylai (talk) 19:52, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
There's a (soft) restriction on having two р(r)s in a word see Poppe, it only applies to some derivational suffixes however. So for example it doesn't occur with instrumental -аар(-aar) or -втар(-vtar, -ish), but it does with -уур(-uur) for example, and probably also sporadically in lexical items. Similar phenomenons also occur in Georgian and Latin. My idea of -мал potentially coming from *-мар is just speculation, such a development is theoretically possible but nothing seems to suggest it.
Claus Schönig connects -lïg with ᠯᠢᠭ(lig) in "Mongolic languages" (edited by Juha Janhunen), I don't speak Turkish, but on the face of it, the phonology and semantics match.
Mongolian also has a very weak line between nouns and adjectives (at least according to traditional analysis, Janhunen argues differently), but some words are obviously more commonly used attributively (as an adjective) than substantively (as a noun). In the case of -мал, words built with this suffix used to be more common as substantives in older Mongol, but are mostly used as attributes today.

Moves and Deletes[edit]

Hello. Just an FYI, in situations where you think a word should be deleted (like this), please add the {{rfd}} template to the existing entry and create an entry on the Request for Deletion page indicating your reasons for deletion. That way others will have an opportunity to weigh in on the topic. In the case of moves (like this) you should use the move feature rather than creating the new entry and requesting the deletion of the old. The reason for this is that the move feature maintains the edit history, which is required by the content licenses we use. If you copy the content to a new page without attribution we are violating the rights of the content creators. Thanks! - TheDaveRoss 18:14, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

Thanks, good to know.Crom daba (talk) 19:52, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

Honorifics[edit]

How do honorific nouns and verbs work in Mongolian? If it's like Tibetan, perhaps it would be good to set up a version of the infrastructure Wyang recently created; see a page like མགོ(mgo) for an example. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 06:27, 1 October 2016 (UTC)

They are more marginal than in other East Asian languages, most grammars and course books don't have anything about them. They are mainly (but not exclusively) used in religious contexts (not only Buddhist, Bible translations also use them), so I don't think we would benefit much from marking them specially. Crom daba (talk) 11:29, 1 October 2016 (UTC)

Template:sh-noun[edit]

It now automatically transliterates, without having to resort to modules. See superlativ and its Cyrillic counterpart. —CodeCat 01:01, 6 November 2016 (UTC)

What sorcery is this? What does SUBPAGENAME do? Crom daba (talk) 01:20, 6 November 2016 (UTC)
It gives the page name, but if the page is a subpage of another page, it only gives the subpage name. You could use just PAGENAME, but SUBPAGENAME makes it work also with reconstruction entries. —CodeCat 01:23, 6 November 2016 (UTC)
Well thank you, I certainly had no idea that this could be handled like this. Crom daba (talk) 01:32, 6 November 2016 (UTC)
I'm now working on cleaning up the parameters some. For now, I'm only moving the 3rd parameter (transliterated+diacritics) over to the 2nd, since it has the same effect. Later, we can see about removing the rest. I want to analyse the existing uses first. According to the documentation of {{sh-noun}}, some words shouldn't have transliteration as they're encountered in one script only. —CodeCat 01:37, 6 November 2016 (UTC)
I'm not sure if that no-transliteration rule is still in effect, we have Croatian Serbo-Croatian and even Kajkavian (just a few of those) terms in Cyrillic for example. Crom daba (talk) 01:51, 6 November 2016 (UTC)
The only exception I can think of is, non-native Roman spellings (in loanwords) should only have native spellings in Cyrillic. Eg both "Washington" and "Vašington" should have "Вашингтон" as the Cyrillic form.--Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 03:12, 6 November 2016 (UTC)
@CodeCat I could hardly find any such cases (but I think they do exist, of course). Perhaps existing Roman forms without Cyrillic equivalents could be added to a track category for checking by editors. As for Roman variants like "Washington" (borrowed)/"Vašington" (native), the native respelling should be used for Washington#Serbo-Croatian for conversion, something like {{sh-proper noun|r|g=m|phon=Vašington}}, which should produce Cyrillic "Вашингтон".
Of course, care should be taken for Roman lj, nj and dž, which can result in pairs љ/лј, њ/нј and џ/дж. Yes, all dialectal forms should have both Roman and Cyrillic forms. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 07:06, 6 November 2016 (UTC)
I haven't implemented the transliteration module, it was already there. I just made {{sh-noun}} use it. —CodeCat 13:08, 6 November 2016 (UTC)
My original idea was to separate the letters of a potential digraph with ` like so: {{sh-verb|head=nad`žíveti}}, which is why sh-translit substitutes backticks into empty strings. But дж, нј and лј are so rare that we might as well format the headwords containing them the hard way. Crom daba (talk) 15:55, 6 November 2016 (UTC)
I don't think it's such a bad idea. We already do similar things in the transliterations of Chinese and Japanese whenever there is ambiguity. —CodeCat 15:57, 6 November 2016 (UTC)
@CodeCat Do you think it's a good idea to add tracking to terms with possibly ambiguous transliterations (Roman to Cyrillic)? I agree with using ` to separate digraphs. What about implementing alternative native forms to force a correct Cyrillic transliteration as in the Washington/Vašington example above? --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 19:27, 6 November 2016 (UTC)
I found a problem, terms with several heads transliterate only one of them, see kalodont. Crom daba (talk) 20:37, 6 November 2016 (UTC)
{{sh-noun}} doesn't support multiple heads yet anyway. I'll work on that too. —CodeCat 20:43, 6 November 2016 (UTC)
@Atitarev Many words are apparently missing the first and second parameters. I converted {{sh-adverb}} to Lua and a lot of module errors are now showing up. What should be done about these? —CodeCat 20:49, 7 November 2016 (UTC)
@CodeCat You seem to be on top of it now. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 00:12, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
I've left the ones I'm unsure about. —CodeCat 00:13, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
What happens with genders for various PoS? I don't see the auto-transliteration either? Are you doing the cleanup first? --00:36, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
The autotransliteration isn't done yet. First, I want to test the automatic code against the manual parameters to see if the results ever differ. That would help spot potential problems. —CodeCat 00:38, 8 November 2016 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── I see, thanks. I think this discussion should be public. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 00:41, 8 November 2016 (UTC)

I did the checking and fixed up most of the transliterations in entries, but I wasn't able to fix them all. They are at [[1]]. —CodeCat 15:48, 11 November 2016 (UTC)
@CodeCat Thanks. Can you implement Crom daba's suggestion to use "`" to separate ambiguous digraphs? E.g. in`jèkcija, nad`žíveti? Also, for terms like Microsoft, you can try my suggestion to use a native Roman spelling, in this case "Màjkrosoft" to convert to the correct Cyrillic form "Ма̀јкрософт". --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 02:30, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
I think it would be simplest if the transliteration, when necessary, would just be specified with tr=, a parameter name that people are surely familiar with. For Microsoft, there'd be tr=Ма̀јкрософт then. I don't think there's any need to respell the Latin script version unless it's actually going to be displayed somewhere. —CodeCat 13:46, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
@CodeCat I see that automatic transliteration is turned off again, can you get it back on? Crom daba (talk) 03:26, 3 December 2016 (UTC)
Done. There's lots of errors now, because the first and second parameters are no longer used, but I have a bot running to fix them all, so it'll take some time. A transliteration can still be specified, but using the tr= parameter, like I added on Microsoft. —CodeCat 13:55, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

Karakhanid texts[edit]

Hello, may i ask where you find the Karakhanid texts? I have not been able to learn the Arabic script yet, is there a place I can copy texts? --Anylai (talk) 09:49, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

I only transcribe Clauson's transcriptions of Kashgari's texts back into Arabic (I feel that this is safe because Kashgari has a consistent orthography and always uses the diacritics, see Clauson -Studies in Turkic and Mongolic linguistics for details). See if you can get B. Atalay, Divanü Lugat-it-türk Tercumesi, 3 volumes and index, Ankara, 1940-3, it's what Clauson cites but I have no idea if the relevant parts are transcribed or given as in the original (I wasn't able to find a copy). Crom daba (talk) 10:32, 10 December 2016 (UTC)
Atalay contains both the transcription and the original script. It is available at http://turuz.com/. --Vahag (talk) 12:20, 10 December 2016 (UTC)
Thanks Vahag! Crom daba (talk) 13:01, 10 December 2016 (UTC)