Wiktionary:Beer parlour/2017/December

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discussion rooms: Tea roomEtym. scr.Info deskBeer parlourGrease pit ← November 2017 · December 2017 · January 2018 → · (current)

Etymology cleanup[edit]

Not sure how to approach the etymology in a coinage like panpygoptosis. If someone could give it a pair of eyes, that would be appreciated. Thanks. —Justin (koavf)TCM 07:05, 1 December 2017 (UTC)

Is it pan- +‎ pygo- +‎ ptosis? Not sure about the "opto" part in the current entry. Equinox 07:43, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
I think you're right. There are two meanings for Ancient Greek ὀπτός (optós), "roasted" and "seen", but neither makes any sense here. — Eru·tuon 08:31, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
Done. --Barytonesis (talk) 21:09, 1 December 2017 (UTC)

delete unnecessary intermediate pages[edit]

Situtations like both fukyo and the page it redirects to ふきょ to finally, after 3 steps, get the right 不許, should be avoided when possible. --Backinstadiums (talk) 16:04, 2 December 2017 (UTC)

No, it shouldn't. Learn a little about Japanese and why our structure is the way it is before you tell us to delete things. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 18:50, 2 December 2017 (UTC)
@Metaknowledge: Just suggesting, as usual, so I should've chosen a clearer modal verb. I know a little of Japanese phonology/phonetics. Wikipedia encyclopedic approach redirects whenever it's desirable --Backinstadiums (talk) 21:08, 2 December 2017 (UTC)
We should absolutely not use hard redirects. fukyo could easily be a word in another language, and aren't other languages besides Standard Japanese (e.g. Ryukyuan languages) also written in hiragana? If so, then ふきょ could potentially also be a word in another language. And while fukyo/ふきょ may have only one kanji reading, consider cases like fu/ where there are five different associated kanji. —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 21:28, 2 December 2017 (UTC)
We could still alleviate the issue by listing the kanji directly at fukyo. —Rua (mew) 22:14, 2 December 2017 (UTC)
@Rua: I agree --Backinstadiums (talk) 23:17, 2 December 2017 (UTC)
Absolutely NOT! Rōmaji entries link to kana readings - usually one but can be a few. The kana entry (hiragana and katakana) serves as a disambiguation page, it can link to a large number of kanji entries. kōsō -> こうそう (kōsō). Please read the policy on Japanese entries in WT:AJA and stop messing around. @Eirikr, TAKASUGI Shinji. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 13:26, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
... or こうしょう (kōshō). Wyang (talk) 15:50, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
Actually one should mithe to access the Roman transcriptions in the first place, isn’t it? Probably you should learn to use an IME. But it displays the true state of things if one has to click twice if one uses a transcription of a transcription.
Though why doesn’t the template {{ja-romanization of}} take an additional argument in the case that the hiragana is itself a transcription of the Chinese? I can imagine that it is regularly the case that users click twice in those cases. Palaestrator verborum (loquier) 23:45, 2 December 2017 (UTC)
The problem is that there's no guarantee that someone won't add more kanji for the pronunciation, and if they only add them to one or the other, but not both, the pages go out of synch. It's hard enough to get all the readings reflected where they should be without requiring updating of another page every time. Like many of Backinstadium's ideas, this is based on the premise that the dictionary is a finite, finished product that merely needs to be rearranged, rather than a dynamic entity that's constantly being edited by people who don't know what anyone else is doing on other pages. Chuck Entz (talk) 16:01, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
@Chuck Entz, Atitarev: I was told in past discussions, I think about the Simplified/Traditional redirect issue, that it was the structure used for the wikis the one that limited the implementation (in your example just sinchronizing two pages). Secondly, I've never thoutht of a lexicographic resource as a finished product; rather I prioritize enhancing the user experience, especially for beginners, even if that means extra work. --Backinstadiums (talk) 17:21, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
Dude, just compare the time you have talked here with the time lost by this disenhancement of you having to click twice. The editing work needed for the enhancement is completely disproportionate to the enhancement gained: Either editors would have to check for rearrangements constantly or complicated templates would have to be used on the Hiragana pages whereby the Romaji pages would autofetch the Chinese. It is better to create some new entries. Palaestrator verborum (loquier) 17:32, 3 December 2017 (UTC)

Confusing cleanup category[edit]

What is Category:Needs cleanup supposed to be and how are terms included in it? —Justin (koavf)TCM 21:52, 2 December 2017 (UTC)

It's being generated by {{da-verb}}. DTLHS (talk) 21:54, 2 December 2017 (UTC)
I have already asked User:Gamren about this. It's something he will be working on eventually. DonnanZ (talk) 22:08, 2 December 2017 (UTC)

Hlai[edit]

We currently only have one entry for the Hlai language, which is nom³. This entry is in some sort of IPA. However, Hlai does have a written language in the Latin script, based on Ha. Should we move nom³ to noms, based on the newest orthography (2005)? — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 22:01, 2 December 2017 (UTC)

Yes, definitely. -sche has created many such entries, usually basing the orthography on whatever linguistic materials they have access to. Whenever I come across these and they need to be moved to an orthography that's actually used, I fix the entry (and the translation at water#Translations) and create a short about page that documents the orthography I have selected. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 22:10, 2 December 2017 (UTC)
@Metaknowledge Thanks! I've added a Hlai section to noms, but should nom³ be a redirect or deleted? — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 00:25, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
I'd say that's at your discretion. Unless somebody else uses it, my instinct would be to delete it. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 01:02, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
@Metaknowledge: Alright, thanks again! — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 01:07, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
No, thank you for working on minority languages! —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 02:15, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
Yes, thank you! :) I try to find if there is any standard orthography for each language (at the time I create the entry and in periodic re-checks of previously-created entries), but sometimes I can't find any. For Hlai, searching for a standard orthography was complicated by the fact Hlai has many varieties. - -sche (discuss) 02:54, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
@-sche It is certainly an issue that Hlai has many varieties. With the standard orthography, I'm not sure how the various dialectal differences can be shown. On a related note, I've also noticed that you have also created "water" entries for different varieties of Zhuang using IPA. Should these all be deleted, since most of our Zhuang coverage doesn't distinguish between dialects? The same issue occurs here with Zhuang, where I'm not sure how the standard orthography can be used to represent varieties other than the the standard register and the Wuming dialect. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 04:39, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
Are the varieties of Zhuang so similar that they should not be considered separate languages, i.e. we should retire the separate codes we currently have for them? (WT:LT says as much, but there does not appear to have been any discussion of it — if you can confirm that we should treat Zhuang as one language, we can add a link on WT:LT to this discussion.) In that case, the entries we currently have, to the extent they show that e.g. Yang Zhuang uses ham⁴, could be migrated into the ===Pronunciation=== section of the "standard Zhuang" term, it would seem to me. Whereas if the varieties should be considered separate languages and the problem is just that only one has a standard orthography, it seems like a tolerable interim solution to leave the others at the best orthography we have access to, even if that is an IPA-ish orthography. - -sche (discuss) 00:20, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
@-sche: Traditionally, these varieties were considered to be one language by the Chinese government (since they are grouped under the Zhuang ethnicity). I think situation is similar to Arabic or even Chinese, where the varieties have very limited to no mutual intelligibility but speakers generally think they are speaking the same language. That is why there is only one standard for all these varieties. See these two files for more information: [1] [2] — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 02:21, 7 December 2017 (UTC)

Removing precomposed characters from MediaWiki:Edittools[edit]

A lot of the space in the edit tools is taken up by precomposed characters like á, ē, ằ, ѝ etc. These aren't actually needed on Wiktionary, because the software automatically converts everything to composed normal form whenever you save a page. It would be perfectly fine if you entered a regular letter a followed by a combining acute accent, the end result is exactly the same. So I propose removing these precomposed characters from the edit tools, and instead making a special tab with all combining diacritics. That would give a lot more flexibility and allow editors to enter combinations that were not previously possible. —Rua (mew) 13:16, 3 December 2017 (UTC)

the software automatically converts everything to composed normal form whenever you save a page – that’s important information, because the upcoming IPA keyboard layout heavily relies on combining characters. I thought before that maybe I have to use precomposed characters.
As for me, the whole bar can be disabled, as all is accessible via dead keys and the compose table and appropriate keyboard layouts or direct Unicode input and charmaps. A web table under an editing area for such seems like a relict from 2004 and a very lame way of input, also the selection is arbitrary, like Ð ð but not Đ đ; dictionary editors can be expected to use appropriate input methods. Or @Anglish4699, do you need that bar?
I can’t disable it just for me? I don’t see such a setting under the editing preferences. Palaestrator verborum (loquier) 15:37, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
For myself at least, I have never used that bottom tool bar, but I have used the top one above the edit workspace. That one does come in handy much of the time. I would not be against the more flexible diacritic table (as that may be more helpful to others), but I think more input from the users is needed here. Anglish4699 (talk) 20:26, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
I used to use the Greek menu, but now I use the template {{chars}}. I still sometimes use the menu for non-Greek characters, though.
I don't know if I've ever used the "Special characters" menu on top. It groups things by Unicode block (I guess), which is somewhat less helpful for scripts such as Greek that are located in multiple blocks, and it doesn't contain all the characters that I would want to type (for instance, punctuation-type characters such as §, ’, ◌). — Eru·tuon 20:55, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
Symbol support vote.svg Supportsuzukaze (tc) 21:15, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
Symbol support vote.svg Support --Barytonesis (talk) 21:16, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
Template:neutral I'd like to see a simulation. Will inserting combining characters work on virtually all the systems that people are using to edit Wiktionary? Especially with monospace fonts in the edit box, I'm not sure if the combining characters will show up correctly on many systems. I find the box quite useful, however.--Prosfilaes (talk) 11:44, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
They may not appear exactly right in the edit box, but that should go away once you save the page. It might even go away just by previewing the page, but someone will have to test that. —Rua (mew) 15:23, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
Yes, when I enter a + ◌́ (U+301, acute accent, minus the dotted circle) and press "show preview", this sequence changes to á (U+E1, Latin small letter a with acute) in the text box. — Eru·tuon 19:16, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
  • I would support some combining characters being removed. That is, when the menu is not for an orthography in which letter + combining character is considered a letter. For example, I think it would be an improvement if the Vietnamese menu gave the letters ă, â, ê, ô, ơ, ư as precombined characters, but listed the tones ◌̀, ◌̉, ◌̃, ◌́, ◌̣ as combining characters. And perhaps the Arabic menu should list the diacriticked letters that are used to transliterate Arabic consonants, but it should give a combining acute accent instead of vowel + acute combinations. (Either that or the acute accent should be removed.) The rationale is that the tonal diacritics and acute accent are separable symbols that represent a phonemic or phonetic unit in themselves, while the other diacritics do not represent a unit in themselves, but only in combination with a letter. — Eru·tuon 21:26, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
    • But for "Latin", everything is a diacritic. I don't think this is a particularly meaningful distinction. The point of the change is to make it easier for people to use diacritics and not having a list of precomposed characters. If everyone and their dog wants their own custom set of "letters" in the menu, then it defeats the point entirely. —Rua (mew) 21:35, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
      • My concern does not apply to the "Latin" menu, only to the ones for particular languages or other scripts. — Eru·tuon 21:39, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
        • Vietnamese is written in the Latin script. None of the precomposed characters in its menu are needed, all can be created with combining diacritics. —Rua (mew) 21:48, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
          • Of course, but it's less convenient to select from a huge long list of diacritics (which are in a difficult-to-understand order) than from a short list of diacritics or letter–diacritic combinations used in a particular orthographical system. — Eru·tuon 21:55, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
          • When visually similar diacritics are involved, it might help to have a menu specific to an orthographical system. Some people confuse háček or breve, circumflex or inverted breve, ogonek or cedilla or comma. Then again, we do not have a menu for every orthography that uses some of these diacritics and I'm not really arguing for that. And they would probably be confused by a minority among active contributors. — Eru·tuon 22:10, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
            • I've included Unicode names and codepoints in the title text of the new diacritics submenu. That will hopefully help people decide which is the right one. —Rua (mew) 22:17, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
              • That is a helpful feature. To be clear, I do support your proposal as far as the Latin menu is concerned. — Eru·tuon 22:35, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
All these confusions are a reason why such a menu should not exist at all 😒. If you use Gucharmap or Fcitx Unicode Input you see more information about the characters you try to give in, and these application also update their data without manual intervention by a Wiktionary coder. Perhaps we should just disable the menu entirely for some time and look who complains. If it goes unnoticed, you’ll can rub your hands because you have less bothering and a new argument for that bug being fixed.
But as this extreme step will not be performed, it slowly becomes more desirable that that bug be fixed. There isn’t a specific script that I can block with uBlock Origin, I can only hide the bar with the element picker. Palaestrator verborum (loquier) 23:55, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
Because not everyone is using a Linux box with xkbconfig and without Gnome IBus overriding all other keyboard interfaces and ignoring ~/.XCompose configurability as too hard. And sometimes people need to use a character that's not in the keyboards they have configured, or for which they haven't memorised the <dead_circumflex><compose><shift><hyphen><j> dance to get ʲ. If you want "It works for me therefore everyone else is doing it wrong", you know where to find systemd. This "extreme step" of removing alternate and accessible ways of entering characters beyond 7-bit ASCII will not be performed because it is arrogant and wrong-headed. --Catsidhe (verba, facta) 01:36, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

Inviting IABot[edit]

While working on Wikipedia I noticed that they use IABot (InternetArchiveBot) to automatically replace dead links with a version stored on archive.org. The project is a joint effort between the Internet Archive and the WMF (more in this blog article). The project has funding, is developed in the open (github) and has already been deployed on a few Wikipedias. As far as I know it hasn't been used on a Wiktionary instance yet. We don't generate the same amount of external links / references as other Wikis but I think it doesn't hurt to make sure what we have is valid and usable. We need to establish a consensus first so I'd like to get your opinions. – Jberkel (talk) 10:25, 4 December 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, T181879 on Phab if you want to follow up. – Jberkel 11:33, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
Symbol support vote.svg SupportRua (mew) 12:01, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
Sounds good. Equinox 12:24, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
I like this idea. I would also like it if we had more external links, especially in areas like etymology, reconstructed languages, etc. - TheDaveRoss 14:32, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
Symbol support vote.svg Support I always make sure that the URLs of quotes I post are archived. It goes without saying as a thing of the durability ideal. Palaestrator verborum (loquier) 15:53, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
Symbol support vote.svg SupportΜετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 19:19, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
Symbol support vote.svg Support — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 19:31, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
Symbol support vote.svg Support --Barytonesis (talk) 19:37, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
Symbol support vote.svg Support French Wiktionary supports this proposal too! Face-smile.svg Noé 11:52, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

Chinese ordering[edit]

Are there any guidelines about the preferred ordering for Chinese? I cannot find any info. at About_Chinese, and after searching in Category:zh:Grammar I realized how chaotic radical ordering can be, especially when treating simplified and traditional versions individually. I would always include some (alternative) pinyin ordering, which has helped increase literacy a great deal since its implementation. --Backinstadiums (talk) 11:24, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

@Backinstadiums: There are many ways to order Chinese characters. Radical ordering is the common way before the advent of bopomofo and pinyin, and is still the common way for traditional Chinese dictionaries. In recent years, ordering by pinyin has become more common, especially in Mainland China. However, most dictionaries would also have an index ordered in alternative ways. For instance, a traditional Chinese dictionary with radical ordering often has a 難查字表 for characters whose radicals are not apparent. It may also include a pinyin/bopomofo index.
The reason why Chinese categories are ordered by radical here in Wiktionary is because Chinese is not only used for Mandarin, making pinyin/bopomofo sorting unreasonable. The categories for specific Chinese lects, e.g. CAT:Mandarin lemmas and CAT:Cantonese lemmas, are sorted according to their respective romanizations. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 17:37, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
@Justinrleung: Except if a true semantic conversion were intended, at least traditional and simplified forms should be treated as a single unit for purposes such as ordering, (currently) the traditional one being used as common lemma. Regarding Pinyin, since nowadays it's the most used romanization (and transliteration) system regardless of one's native Chinese lect, it would be truly beneficial to add it as much as possible to spread Chinese literacy. --Backinstadiums (talk) 18:01, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
Symbol oppose vote.svg Oppose
1. Someone looking for 刘 won't find the traditional lemma of 劉 because of the drastically different number of strokes. Sort them independently to accommodate users of both.
2. Not every character has a Mandarin pronunciation. Use Category:Mandarin lemmas to search by pinyin.
suzukaze (tc) 18:36, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
(Chiming in...)
One additional wrinkle is that the MediaWiki software backend appears to only allow sorting by one index key per category. Sorting a given Chinese character by each of the various possible pinyin representations would require a change in the underlying database software, one that the MW devs seem uninterested in tackling.
We've run into this issue with Japanese entries, where a given Chinese-based spelling often entails multiple phonetic realizations, and thus ideally multiple sortings -- see for instance, where we would want the entry to appear in Category:Japanese_nouns, etc., under all of these indices: え (e), かび (kabi), かい (kai), から (kara), つか (tsuka), つく (tsuku), and ほぞ (hozo). Due to how the MW software is programmed, this 柄 character only appears indexed under the last reading, hozo.
Categorizing Chinese characters separately by lect would work for indexing by pinyin reading. But categorizing Chinese characters in a single category, and trying to index by the pinyin readings for all of the lects at once within that one category, is currently barred by baked-in technical difficulties. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 18:38, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

Category:English misnomers[edit]

I think that it may be of interest, especially for English learners, to see a compendium for words or locutions that don’t mean what they would imply. To start, we have: strawberry, Rhode Island, East River, funny bone, prairie dog, French braid, Boston cream pie and Hawaiian Pidgin (amongst many other candidates, but I don’t want to exhaust room here). I can’t think of any possible objections at the moment, though some may find the topic too trivial or too uninteresting to merit a category, but I’d like to see others’ thoughts here first. — (((Romanophile))) (contributions) 19:01, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

There will inevitably be disputes about what in particular goes into it but yes, I think that it's fine to have some listing of counter-intuitive words. It may be better suited to an appendix. —Justin (koavf)TCM 19:16, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
I would think that almost any noun phrase (any phrase of any kind?) that was also an idiom would necessarily be a misnomer. DCDuring (talk) 00:07, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
Perhaps even single words that are used in a non-literal sense, depending on how you define "what they would imply". — Eru·tuon 00:10, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
* What does strawberry imply? And how many berries would be exempt from this? cranberry (which do not come in crans), chokeberry, cowberry, hagberry, raspberry, gooseberry, hackberry? (The coffee bean is, of course, the true hackberry, and a real cowberry is of course bullshit.)
* A pidgin and a creole are technically distinct, but nobody but a linguist really cares; it's not really confusing.
* A prairie dog is a sort of dog-like creature that lives on the prairies. It's a wonder of clarity compared to the robin, which can refer to any number of distantly related species of bird.
* I don't see even what you're getting with French braid; it's a hair braid that is called French.
What I'm getting at, is that it seems pretty vague and broad as a category, and given the examples you gave, I don't think it would be terribly helpful to an English learner.--Prosfilaes (talk) 09:58, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
Strawberries aren’t berries, prairie dog aren’t dogs (though all robins are at least birds), and French braids did not originate in France. Even so, I do see that it has the potential to be too big of a category unless we made up some special rules for it. — (((Romanophile))) (contributions) 03:40, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
berry, sense #1 is "A small fruit, of any one of many varieties.". Many things we call berries aren't botanical berries and some things, like grapes, that are botanical berries we don't call berries. French practically needs a definition of "fancy" (though apparently they're called tresse française in French.) Also, French doesn't necessarily mean "originated in France"; it could mean it was "popular in France" or even "associated with France". Also, cf. pineapple braid (another name for the Dutch braid or inverted French braid.) The extreme here is the "canoe wife", a name in English tabloids for a woman whose husband allegedly drowned in a canoe accident (body never found), who moved to Brazil with the insurance money and lived the good life with her husband, until she was extradited back to England for insurance fraud. Hence, "canoe wife". Adjectives have to communicate clearly to the audience, not necessarily make good literal sense.
I'd see a category of things like prairie dog, where the root word is clearly a misnomer in normal English--that is, most people would agree that a prairie dog is not a dog. That seems a reasonable enough and possibly useful category.--Prosfilaes (talk) 16:37, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

Unusual English pronunciations categorized as 1 syllable words[edit]

trousers, thousandth, straighten, Pirc Defence, cat's meow, read receipt. DTLHS (talk) 06:11, 7 December 2017 (UTC)

Pirc Defence is incomplete; cat's meow and read receipt used {{IPA}} instead of {{IPAchar}}. —suzukaze (tc) 06:24, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
In trousers, @Bcent1234 added the 1-syllable category, no doubt by mistake. In thousandth, someone didn't indicate that the n formed a syllable, which can be done with a syllabic diacritic or a schwa. — Eru·tuon 07:09, 7 December 2017 (UTC)

Alternative template that applies the same font formatting as Template:IPAchar[edit]

As part of ongoing maintenance and cleanup work, @Mahāgaja recently made this change to the Japanese 光 entry, replacing a call to {{IPAchar}} with {{l|und}} instead. This was due to the inclusion of <sub> tags in the string formerly contained by {{IPAchar}}. Talking things over with him, I understand his reasons and have no objection. (That thread is here for those interested.)

One issue that remains, however, is font formatting. {{IPAchar}} results in text at 15.4pt, while {{l|und}} produces 14pt. I could manually add in a <span> tag specifying class="IPA" to do that, but I wanted to ask first if anyone is aware of some other template that would apply a 110% font size?

(And if this query should go in the Grease Pit instead, I'm happy to move it.)

TIA, ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 22:12, 7 December 2017 (UTC)

I don't know if it is correct to consider this notation IPA, even though all but the subscripted vowels at least belong to the IPA character set. Perhaps it would be better to consider it as Old Japanese text (though it is a transcription system for the actual man'yougana used to write Old Japanese), tag it as Old Japanese ({{m|ojp||...}} or {{m|ojp|...}} depending on whether there will be entries), add Latin as a script for Old Japanese in Module:languages/data3/o, and assign the desired styles to Old Japanese written with Latin script in MediaWiki:Common.css? — Eru·tuon 22:59, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
Apologies, I'm not married to the idea of IPA-ness at all -- I merely want the text to appear in the same font and at the same scaling as the /slash-transcription phonemic string/ IPA text that follows it on the same line. The w:International Phonetic Alphabet article describes using ⟨angle brackets⟩ for non-/phonemic/ and non-[phonetic] transcriptions meant to indicate the ⟨original-language orthography⟩, which would seem to make sense for Old Japanese strings like this with the numeric subscripts -- but as Mahāgaja argued, we probably don't want to use {{IPAchar}} for angle-bracket orthographic strings (which makes sense to me).
I hope that clarifies -- I'm not looking for IPA per se, just something that formats similarly for visual consistency. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 00:28, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
What are these pronunciations? What system do they follow? Does that system have a name? What symbols can and can't appear in them? If there are multiple answers to these questions multiple templates should be created. DTLHS (talk) 00:53, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
@DTLHS: One system, symbols used would be a subset of ASCII lower-case letters, whitespace, and subscripted 1 and 2 to indicate differences apparent in w:Jōdai Tokushu Kanazukai and apparently indicating phonemic differences lost in the Japanese language during the w:Heian period (roughly the 900s-1000s CE).
Not sure why we'd need multiple templates; all I need is something that formats the font, and that is ideally more elegant in the wikicode than <span class="IPA">using raw HTML</span>.
You may only need something that formats the font, but other people may appreciate knowing explicitly how some string of symbols is to be interpreted and what its source is. DTLHS (talk) 01:11, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
Ah, yes, that I agree with -- I'd missed your intent earlier. The subscripted numerals are described in w:Old Japanese, which is linked to already by the {{inh}} template that should be right nearby, as at 光#Japanese, Etymology 1; is that not insufficient? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 20:07, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
If no one is aware of any extant template (besides {{IPAchar}}) that does this, I'm happy to make a new one. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 01:03, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure that {{IPA}} and {{IPAchar}} and other pronunciation templates are the only ones add the IPA class. But once again, I do not think it is correct to label this transcription IPA. It would be better to tag it as Old Japanese written in the Latin script, and to apply the desired styles to that language–script combination. — Eru·tuon 01:27, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
I realize I've confused the issue. I'm happy using some other class -- class="IPA" just happens to be the only one I know of right now that I'm sure applies the font styling I want. Looking at the rendered HTML in Chrome's "Inspect" view, I don't think this CSS class does anything to label the text as IPA: it just sets font and line height styling. I have no interest in labeling the romanized OJP text as IPA; Mahāgaja's arguments against doing so have already convinced me of that.  :) My reservation about using something like {{m|ojp|...}} is that, in my specific use case (including romanized OJP to show phonetic development through to modern JA, as at 光#Japanese), I want the font to match the IPA strings that immediately follow on the same line, and this font configuration might not be the ideal for other use cases. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 20:07, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
I’d support the creation of such a template; it’s also needed for Egyptian entries like tꜣwj, where the reconstructed pronunciation is generally IPA but also includes a wildcard V for unreconstructible vowels. — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 14:44, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
Actually, the error messages seem to suggest IPAchar is complaining about the numbers, not the HTML: invalid IPA characters (1). —suzukaze (tc) 00:36, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
For reasons of both aesthetics and consistency, I'd rather this ojp transliteration used the Unicode subscript numerals ₁ and ₂ rather than normal 1 and 2 with subscript markup, but since ₁ and ₂ are also not valid IPA characters, doing so won't solve the immediate problem. —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 13:27, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
Hmmm, I find that the Unicode subscripts are too small -- I have trouble seeing them clearly, and my eyes aren't that bad. I also find they scan less well -- 1 extends below the line somewhat, thereby standing out better, whereas ₁ is mostly within the line of the text and thus (in my opinion) too unobtrusive. Either way though, as you note, we need to find something other than {{IPAchar}}. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 20:07, 8 December 2017 (UTC)

Mandarin tone-related phenomena[edit]

I'd like to know whether tone-related phenomena is explained somewhere, and if not I propose creating some notes for users. Secondly, 小姐 shows xiǎojie as a "toneless variant", yet A Grammar of Mandarin by Jeroen Wiedenhof states that in a bisyllabic word written with 2 characters, both with citation 3T, modern Mandarin varies: 小姐 Miss [2.0] xiáojie, 表姐 elder female cousin [2.3], 姐姐 elder sister [3.0]. Xiáojie is also shown by Colloquial Chinese A Complete Language Course --Backinstadiums (talk) 11:18, 8 December 2017 (UTC)

You are focusing too much on the details. It's great that you are looking up reference phonetic material on the pronunciation of Mandarin, but as a learner of Mandarin, please bear in mind that the '3-3 → 2-3' tone sandhi in Mandarin is a natural process that even native speakers may not be able to notice or characterise. For '3-3' words with non-obligatory toneless second syllables, there is nothing that will make you un-understandable by pronouncing the tones clearly without sandhi. In fact, if your tones are accurate (which is absolutely paramount for learners), pronouncing the words 小姐 and 表姐 slowly and clearly, without sandhi, will give the unfamiliar listener the impression that you are a learned speaker. The sandhi will come naturally when you have become sufficiently familiar with pronouncing full '3-3' sequences such as 表姐; it should not precede the latter. Actually, intentionally pronouncing '3-3' as '2-3' as a learner would lead to confusions. e.g. 網友 could be understood as , especially considering that learners generally tend to enunciate the syllables very slowly. When the second syllable of a '3-3' sequence is optionally reduced, both the 3-3 and 2-3 forms can be weakened, resulting in 3-· and 2-·, the former used in careful speech and the latter in fast speech. In normal speech it is probably somewhere in between the two. I don't really think it needs to be further explained- learners should try to use the unreduced pronunciations unless the word is obligatorily toneless like 姐姐. Plus please avoid the word 小姐 altogether because of its negative connotations. Wyang (talk) 14:03, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
@Wyang: Since the author said "historical compounds now highly lexicalized" I think it's worth classifying such a group (to which terms such as 小姐 Miss [2.0] belong) withing Category:Mandarin_words_containing_toneless_variants --Backinstadiums (talk) 15:13, 8 December 2017 (UTC)

Happy Birthday Wiktionary![edit]

Happy Birthday Wiktionary! Message from Katherine Maher, Executive Director of the Wikimedia Foundation

VGrigas (WMF) (talk) 14:39, 8 December 2017 (UTC)

Thank you! —Justin (koavf)TCM 23:12, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
Cheers! How many candles on the birthday cake? DonnanZ (talk) 00:56, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
15, I should have listened to the audio. DonnanZ (talk) 01:00, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
🎂 It depends on your platform! [3] Equinox 04:39, 9 December 2017 (UTC)

Proposal: public polls[edit]

Sometimes there are matters that strongly affect the user experience, and it would be valuable to ask the ordinary users what they want. I therefore propose that we implement an option to hold public polls, which are shown to all users who visit Wiktionary, whether logged in or not. In these polls, we would ask simple questions such as "which layout do you prefer" or "do you think this feature is valuable". There would be a maximum of one public poll at a time, and they would run for a duration of two months (subject to discussion of course). Starting a public poll should not require majority consensus, to prevent reactionary users from sabotaging the process.

I have no idea how this would actually be implemented, but I'm sure there are people who can help with that. —Rua (mew) 22:38, 8 December 2017 (UTC)

In principle, it's not hard to put a banner on the top of each page--we already have one: MediaWiki:Sitenotice. —Justin (koavf)TCM 23:12, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
But a poll is quite different. It would involve saving people's answers somewhere, and also remembering who voted. —Rua (mew) 23:14, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
Are you suggesting that the poll be in the header? I am suggesting that the site notice have a link to a poll and that is documented elsewhere. —Justin (koavf)TCM 23:42, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
Hmm. I figured that the poll would be directly located on the page somewhere, like in the bar on the left. That way users can just click their option without being taken away from where they want to be. —Rua (mew) 23:57, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
Ah. I see what you mean now. MediaWiki can certainly have polls and record user answers--e.g. see Wikia. Not sure if it's desirable or if we want some barrier to entry of some kind but it's definitely possible. —Justin (koavf)TCM 00:04, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Good idea. Probably the best we can do and still continue to bend over backward to convey the idea that WMF projects respect and guard user privacy. Would we limit participation to registered users? Would a checkuser be available and willing to make sure there wasn't sock-puppetry skewing the results?
"Majority consensus" conflates two decision principles. Consensus usually means well more than a simple majority. In practice, we have had various levels for "consensus" here, varying over time and across types of decisions. I would think that a simple majority would suffice for something like this. We could start with no vote required and see how it goes. DCDuring (talk) 15:35, 9 December 2017 (UTC)

vulgar passages in quotes[edit]

I don't know if this has been discussed already but why do so many of the quotes for English terms have to reference very vulgar or obscene sexual material, often from homosexual novels and the like? Is this just meant to be provocative and "edgy" for the sake of it, or to show that it's okay and normal, or to push the envelope? Is it part of some agenda? Is it some statement about the nature of this site being one where people can freely contribute? I don't get it. Not that I have anything against homosexuality but some of these passages (equally including those that reference straight interactions) are a bit much for people to read if they're just casually looking at a dictionary, and I feel it may make some people take Wiktionary less seriously, making it rather juvenile and akin to something like Urban Dictionary. Word dewd544 (talk) 04:50, 9 December 2017 (UTC)

Any examples? If a term itself is vulgar the quotes will probably also be vulgar. DTLHS (talk) 04:51, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
In some cases Wonderfool has added this kind of thing for a joke (e.g. the erotic passages from Fanny Hill, and I remember a news article about a kitten being microwaved). In other cases (slang) some words just tend to appear in these contexts. I try to favour "neutral"-feeling citations where possible. Equinox 04:55, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
The The Fanny quotes are all excellent! Especially for amorous/old-fashioned terms like straddle, indriven, unbonneted, house of accommodation, throb, supinely. But the sexual quotes for daily words like prove, unnecessary etc. are probably not the best ideas. As for the quotes about the cat in the microwave, that was pretty funny. This Wonderfool character seems like a cool type of chick (I assume she's a chick, anyhow...). --Lirafafrod (talk) 11:08, 12 December 2017 (UTC)
I definitely think we should give a strong preference for non-shocking quotations (cf. w:en:WP:EGG). There is no reason for vulgar or graphic quotations for words other than vulgar and graphic ones. —Justin (koavf)TCM 05:00, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
It might be worth saying: we're not a corpus, and we don't have an obligation to keep any particular quote if it can be replaced and if it's not notable in some way, like the first known usage of a word. DTLHS (talk) 05:01, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
Vulgarity seems to cast too wide a net. To clarify what I imagine is the intent: Don't we mean "obscene", "disgusting", and/or "not suitable for small children"? I've felt and mostly repressed the urge to remove such quotes.
A problem arises with certain polysemous terms which have many ordinary definitions but some that are disgusting or luridly sexual. For such problematic definitions a practice of not having any usage examples (which display by default) and no excessively disgusting citations (which are hidden by default) might suffice. DCDuring (talk) 15:50, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
I could add much more vulgar quotes as I use to hear rap music, like I have done on dog bone.
I think the general solution is to move quotations to citation pages – I don’t want a moral cleansing to be started because “we don't have an obligation to keep any particular quote”. Do not be a puritan. Sexual references form a great part of what people talk and have useful subtile differences. The measurement line might be: A reference should not be moved because of being boorish, but if it is contra bonos mores, as would be enough for a contract to be void. Palaestrator verborum (loquier) 16:37, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
Ah yes, wrapping oneself in the flag of free expression. I think we lavish much more attention on some "subtle" differences for sexual terms than on, say, those involving a word like, say, seem. I suspect that the entire reason for the differential attention is a differential in hormonal response within the contributors to the prospect of working on the two types on entries. I rather doubt that any consideration of the users of an entry, especially those of an age different from the contributor becomes involved. DCDuring (talk) 18:23, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
I am not sure what you mean with those hormonal responses and with the “free expression”. If I hear rap music I, I add quotes from rap music, and users who hear Pop add Pop music quotes. The former is even more valuable because there are the gaps of Wiktionary whilst there is else hardly an English word found not in Wiktionary (consider Grime or Drill with Multicultural London English). But I am not free to change what music pleases me and I doubt that you know much about how hormones lead the editing habits of Wiktionarians. And what I am particularly not free in is to choose the sources which I stumble upon. Better give that durable quote for dog bone than to leave it out because some people are more sensitive and there could be a less edgy one. There should be more cases when people should be thankful for seeing the quote than pitying themselves for having endeavored to read it – and disgust can also be mixed with thankfulness for having read an example. That is another way how you could discriminate the cases considering the user. Palaestrator verborum (loquier) 22:31, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
I also dislike censorship but I think the point here is to avoid vulgarity if it is unnecessary, e.g. when citing an everyday word like "umbrella". Equinox 06:22, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
Sorry, I meant excessive obscenity rather than vulgarity. That more accurately describes what I'm getting at here. I actually had a feeling much of it was part of some kind of practical joke by some user a while ago and then no one really bothered to change them. It doesn't really bother me that much personally (in fact I'm far from puritanical in my daily life and don't hesitate to use some of this language) but I could see how that would annoy some people and draw them away from the project. It almost seems like some of the editors were purposely going for shock value. I could also invoke the whole "not safe for work and not safe for kids" thing, but realistically, it's hard to keep kids away from seeing certain kinds of content online. And yes, of course words that are meant to be obscene by definition would obviously have these kinds of quotes, but I do recall coming across several where it was uncalled for. I'll have to go and find some specific examples. And I also get that there is freedom of speech, which is perfectly fine, but this is still a user-modified project, like Wikipedia, one in which a consensus of informed people generally decide on what ends up being presented. Word dewd544 (talk) 07:06, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

Doubt about recent Persian, Middle Persian, Yaghnobi, Tajiki and Arabic entries and edits[edit]

I'm really worried about recent edits and entry creations in these languages. Kaixinguo~enwiktionary (talk) 18:19, 9 December 2017 (UTC)

@Kaixinguo~enwiktionary Me too, even though I don't speak Persian, Hindi entries need good Persian entries for etymology. I think @Rajkiandris should explain himself, since he has added thousands of Yaghnobi, Tajik, and Persian stubs with incorrect formatting and etymologies, and now he doesn't respond to queries on his talk page. Some of his edits are, frankly, totally wrong.
As for Arabic, I actually think the entry quality has improved a lot recently, thanks to the better treatment of dialects and good work by new contributors. —AryamanA (मुझसे बात करेंयोगदान) 22:53, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
So what are you worried about in Arabic entries? The increase in quality I have felt for Arabic since I have registered two months ago has been according to my gut-feel 30%. I have always patrolled the edits in Arabic, corrected the template usage (even added and edit reference templates), added many good etymologies (see ت ر ج م (t r j m), this has not been seen before), removed the {{etyl}} completely from it, emptied Category:Arabic entries needing vocalization (though this some random IP did too), Category:Arabic terms needing Arabic script, Category:Arabic form-I verbs with missing non-past vowel in headword, and added about 400 additional entries of high quality belonging to the 9200 in Category:Arabic lemmas now, and almost 200 quotes with translations, and a significant number of images. I use all sources available and as a rule add only words I read.
I had on that occasion also cleaned up some Persian etymologies. Today you have changed the transcriptions of the Persian in إِبْرِيق (ʾibrīq) and its reborrowed descendant ابریق but I have only copied the transcription of the Persian word as it was found before, this plays surely a role in that you talk here now. I don’t know Persian to say what transcriptions are good and Wiktionary:About Persian#Transliteration does not say anything meaningful about it. Perhaps you should mention the minimum standards in it. I have just three days ago cleaned it up from some instructions that were wrong, and I have much improved Wiktionary:About Arabic. Also, who will clean up {{etyl}} in Persian? Now I have removed it from Arabic it can’t be used anymore, but Persian? You seemingly refer to edits Rajkiandris (talkcontribs) but I have not seen him adding Arabic. @Kaixinguo~enwiktionary Palaestrator verborum (loquier) 22:55, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
I'm not referring to those romanisations; that kind of thing happens all the time. No one can monitor everything that's going on, perhaps it was wrong to include Arabic. I'm just talking about a general impression. I am sorry if I have given you the impression that I am referring to you. Kaixinguo~enwiktionary (talk) 23:26, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
So how have you formed the impression? I know what has been going on the last two months in Arabic and there hasn’t been anything needing reproval. Palaestrator verborum (loquier) 23:42, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
I literally just said maybe I shouldn't have included Arabic so let it go.Kaixinguo~enwiktionary (talk) 23:45, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
Ok, I let it go, but your submission is still underspecified. I don’t know what you want people to do. People probably prefer not to extract the notions you know but others don’t. You won’t get sudden contributors proficient in those languages who will perform some thorough reviews of the language treatment. Palaestrator verborum (loquier) 00:06, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
@Kaixinguo~enwiktionary: If you complain about quality in a public place, you have to give some examples. Which of the recent entries in CAT:Persian lemmas, CAT:Tajik lemmas, CAT:Arabic lemmas, etc. seem wrong? Or is it some translations from English? --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 00:26, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
@Atitarev: See User talk:Rajkiandris and Special:Contribs/Rajkiandris. While most of the entries and edits don't have wrong definitions per se, the quality of edits is not up to par (not using templates, wrong Proto-Iranian reconstructions, incorrect sorting of descendants, no transliterations for Middle Persian, etc.). Combined with the massive volume of edits that (s)he has done, the overall quality of Yaghnobi and Tajik entries especially has deteriorated. Also, much like Gfarnab, they edit in languages that don't even know anything about; I had to revert a dozen Konkani entries of his a while ago. —AryamanA (मुझसे बात करेंयोगदान) 00:33, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
I see, thanks. Having an editor editing in a language nobody can check, like Yagnobi is even more dangerous. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 00:38, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
I have left a warning on his talk page. I ask that any of you with expertise or resources in any of the languages he has worked on to help assess or clean up his entries. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 00:56, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
We should require @Rajkiandris to proffer some quotations with translations in Yaghnobi or at least Tajik where he should find enough – I mean, speaking to @Rajkiandris, you should add quotes with translations. If you do, you can affirm an impression of knowledge of these languages; if not, it is also good, for Wiktionary, because it only increases the notion that you only copy linguistic material without sufficient exposal to the language itself, and we can ostracize you. So add quotes if you want to be taken seriously and your entries to have a long life. For now it is in the realm of the possible that “created by Rajkiandris” will be an argument in itself in proposals for deletion. Palaestrator verborum (loquier) 01:34, 10 December 2017 (UTC)

Synonyms under corresponding senses - stop of switching[edit]

In Wiktionary:Beer_parlour/2017/May#Poll: putting "nyms" directly under definition lines, there is a preliminary consensus for using a new synonym format but only under the condition that the synonyms become hidden, meaning collapsible. There is not consensus, not even a supermajority, for non-collapsible synonyms under corresponding senses. An example entry that I think currently looks horrible due to the new format is cat.

I propose that switching to the new synonym format stops until the collapsing of synonyms is implemented. --Dan Polansky (talk) 13:24, 10 December 2017 (UTC)

I agree with cat looking horrible. However it would not be a solution to use the synonyms section. It looks bad too and would look worse without {{syn}}. This template kin need fixed. And before a hiding can be made, it would work out well to decrease font-weight and font-size. But {{sense}} + synonyms looks worse than {{syn}} with arguments does.
For reference only I link here Wiktionary:Beer parlour/2017/November#Independent Synonyms section, or {{synonyms}} under each relevant sense?. Palaestrator verborum (loquier) 15:03, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
this revision of cat entry (31 December 2016) looks okay as for synonyms, using the old/current format. What looks even better is this revision (26 December 2011), where the some of the rather dubious synonym lines are absent. --Dan Polansky (talk) 15:15, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
If I apply the arguments consequently, I reason that we should not list synonyms at all in pages as long as they are not hidden in the Thesaurus namespace or in a drop-down menu. Thesauri are else separate products from dictionaries that are not included even in the greatest dictionaries. Palaestrator verborum (loquier) 15:29, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
I don't know what to say or where to begin; the above does not make any sense to me. --Dan Polansky (talk) 15:47, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
What’s so complicated? Currently both the synonyms section and {{syn}} look bad. If these things are hidden, they look better. Thus there is an argument for not adding synonyms at all as long as {{syn}} is not fixed (for one does not make a Thesaurus entry for all things either). Which does not mean that other reasons – the usefulness – outweigh the aesthetic argument leading to the conclusion to use a synonym section or {{syn}} anyway. Palaestrator verborum (loquier) 15:57, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
Re. "Thus there is an argument for not adding synonyms at all as long as syn is not fixed:" There is no such argument. I am not proposing to stop adding synonyms. I am proposing to continue the original practice of adding synonyms to their dedicated sections, as still codified in WT:ELE. I am proposing that all switching should stop until collapsibity is implemented, consistent with the referenced poll. I said these things above. --Dan Polansky (talk) 16:02, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
Help me test nym-hiding by adding the following line to your custom javascripts:
importScript("User:Ungoliant MMDCCLXIV/synshide.js");
Ungoliant (falai) 17:49, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
What do I have to do for it? I haven’t ever used custom javascripts, and when I search for it I find plenty. Palaestrator verborum (loquier) 18:31, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
@Palaestrator verborum: click here, and copy paste what Ungoliant wrote. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 18:37, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
@Ungoliant MMDCCLXIV It works on cat, but not on Geck or anmachen – there the synonyms and antonyms just vanish. Palaestrator verborum (loquier) 19:06, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
Another issue: cottage cheese DTLHS (talk) 19:26, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
@Palaestrator verborum, DTLHS, thanks. It was a really dumb mistake... should be working now. Please use my talk page to report problems, and we’ll announce here when everything starts working properly. — Ungoliant (falai) 19:30, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
@Ungoliant MMDCCLXIV Thank you! Having synonyms displayed so prominently under definition lines was driving me crazy. Andrew Sheedy (talk) 22:09, 10 December 2017 (UTC)

Reborrowings[edit]

Hello. When a French term is a borrowing of an English term, which itself is a borrowing of an Old French term, does it qualify as a "reborrowing"? I don't know if I can add French square to CAT:French twice-borrowed terms. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 21:20, 10 December 2017 (UTC)

You don’t have to add to the category yourself. It happens when you use {{der|fr|fr|}}. Palaestrator verborum (loquier) 22:14, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
And if doesn’t happen with {{der|fr|fro|}}, I think it is an error. Palaestrator verborum (loquier) 22:15, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
It seems like the collection of doublets and of reborrowed terms overlaps. Palaestrator verborum (loquier) 22:17, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
Yes, I think that these are reborrowings. The word reborrowing presupposes the identity of the language, because the prefix “re” signifies retreat to a state the subject had, i. e. when it existed as such. So words which English has from the Latin spoken in Gallia cannot be reborrowings because French does not represent the successor of Latin; but if Old English has taken a word from Old French it can be a reborrowing, because French represents the successor of Old French (the people then thought of Old French as French, it has the same identity, though we shall see it ex post) – not relevant if English is the sole successor of Old English –, and words which Indo-European has borrowed from Proto-Semitic cannot be “reborrowed” by Arabic. Palaestrator verborum (loquier) 22:26, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
That argument makes no sense. There is no notion of successors with languages the way there is with countries. Basing it only on the name is unlinguistic. There is nothing that entitles French to more than say, Walloon. Both are linguistically descendants of the same language. —Rua (mew) 23:00, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
Which means the things OP described are not reborrowings. Question solved. Palaestrator verborum (loquier) 00:13, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
But it looks like it is not easy to fix with the current system of language data to cause {{der|fr|fro|-}} to categorize into reborrowings but {{der|fr|itc|-}} not. Palaestrator verborum (loquier) 22:31, 10 December 2017 (UTC)

request to add to WT:AWB[edit]

user:rajasgored, because I don't like flooding Recent Changes. —suzukaze (tc) 07:11, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

Added, I hope I did it correctly. Let me know if it still doesn’t work. Wyang (talk) 03:50, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
There's also the option of temporarily giving your account a flood flag, though you're certainly experienced and responsible enough to have AWB enabled. Chuck Entz (talk) 04:02, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
Thank you!
Nearly forgot about Wiktionary:Bots#Process though, lol
I'll set up the votes page. —suzukaze (tc) 06:21, 13 December 2017 (UTC)