User talk:Rajkiandris

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It's great to have you here and registered! Please note the changes I made to kasang (how to link etymologies). ms stands for Malay; all Wikipedia entries have the language codes on the infoboxes in the righthand corner. Thanks! --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 06:23, 4 August 2012 (UTC)


Again, please format your etymologies correctly. See tewel for how I fixed it. --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 18:55, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

This is very frustrating. Please just try to format them correctly. --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 06:09, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

It's five years later and you are still not formatting etymologies correctly. —Rua (mew) 16:00, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

Livonian stød[edit]

It is not a part of the default orthography, but it's not actually predictable either, so we have been marking it in headwords such as kež, vež, veļ. It's generally also transcribed in source literature, and so I've been similarly including it in Proto-Finnic entries (e.g. *velji). Compare this with our conventions for Latin: "On Wiktionary, macrons should never be used in the names of entries, so the word līber would appear on the page liber. However, within the text of the page, macrons should be used wherever appropriate."

Wiktionary:About Livonian should maybe have a mention of all this, though: the info is currently only found at Appendix:Livonian pronunciation. --Tropylium (talk) 10:57, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

Hm, I notice you also corrected jeng to jeṅg at *henki. The letter ‹ṅ› is however to my knowledge not a part of the Livonian standard orthography at all, compare Līvõkīel-ēstikīel-lețkīel sõnārōntõz. Do you have some different source you are working with? --Tropylium (talk) 11:02, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

My source is quite old, that is true: Sjögren 1861.


Hi, you added a Livonian entry at lem, but according to Reconstruction:Proto-Finnic/lämbin it should be spelled lemm. Can you double-check which spelling is right? Thanks. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 11:32, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

Hi. In Sjögren 1861 it is spelled as -mm, but in modern dictionaries it is just -m. The same applies to many words ending in -ll in the older dictionary, turned to -l in modern dictionaries.

Okay, thanks! If the -mm and -ll spellings are likely to be encountered by people reading Livonian texts, we could add them as {{archaic spelling of}}, {{dated spelling of}}, {{obsolete spelling of}}, or {{superseded spelling of}}. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 09:32, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
I would recommend prefixing all Salaca Livonian material from Sjögren with {{label|liv|Salaca}}. It is a fairly different language variety from Courland Livonian; Salacan also went extinct shortly after Sjögren, and all later publications on Livonian work with the Courland dialect(s). --Tropylium (talk) 10:05, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

Blank category pages[edit]

Don't leave completely blank but please write {{auto cat}}. Equinox 15:38, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

You're still creating blank pages. Please stop. —Rua (mew) 15:58, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
You are creating more blank category pages. Last warning. —Rua (mew) 14:53, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

Etymologies again[edit]

The etymology sections that you are creating are not etymologies. Please either provide proper etymologies (like in the Finnish entries), use {{rfe|izh}}, or leave out the etymology section. Also, you should use {{cog}} to link to cognates. —Rua (mew) 16:05, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

It is a question: Do these Finnic languages (like Karelian or Ingrian) have etymologies that are independent of Finnish? Or they evolved directly from PF? (My answer: I do not think so.)

In most of your etymologies, you've said that they are akin to a certain Finnish term. That implies that they have common ancestry, and thus that they come from Proto-Finnic. If they aren't actually related, then it would be wrong to use {{cog}} or to say "akin". Instead, they would be parallel formations, formed independently. For most of these terms though, it is quite obvious that they are from Proto-Finnic. It's probably easiest to copy the Proto-Finnic term from the Finnish entry. —Rua (mew) 16:22, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

I have a huge problem with PF (Proto-Finnic). It is as if we wrote "English fish comes from Proto-Germanic *fiskaz". This might be true, but this info is misleading: of course, English fish comes from Old English fisc. But we cannot repeat this kind of exercise here: Ingrian kala (meaning fish) does not come directly from PF *kala. It should come from a common Balto-Finnic word (originating around the 10th century), but here we are stuck: we have no written records. The first materials are available from the 16th century. So please, do not write "Ingrian kala comes from PF *kala". In my opinion, "akin to Finnish kala" is the best solution. This solution is not perfect, but at least it is not misleading. Regards.

What is misleading about Proto-Finnic? It's well-supported by linguistics. —Rua (mew) 11:11, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
In principle it would be possible to reconstruct also intermediate stages like Old Karelian or Old Veps, analogical to Old English or Old Norse etc. However, there is no consensus on the exact make-up of these, while Proto-Finnic does have a rough consensus reconstruction. This is because the classification of the Finnic varieties is still partly under debate, and a reconstruction of e.g. "Old Veps" is going to look different depending if we attempt to derive from it just the "Veps" dialects; or also some or all of the "Ludian" dialects; or even also the substrate in Livvi. (A similar problem would come up whe trying to reconstruct Old English, too: there are modern English dialects that do not descend from the West Saxon written standard of OE.)
On the other hand, since we do not distinguish things like "Old Veps", this means that "10th century Balto-Finnic" is still just Finnish, Karelian, etc. The Finnish and Ingrian words for e.g. 'fish' have been separate much longer than that (even though they have not changed in shape from each other). Proto-Finnic first breaks up around 500 BC, Proto-Northern Finnic around 0 CE at latest (though I suspect actually earlier than that as well). --Tropylium (talk) 10:21, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

Again, can you please format etymologies using the right templates? You are giving other editors tons of extra work to fix your edits. —Rua (mew) 11:49, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

OK, I try my best.

You are still not using the right templates, such as {{inh}}, {{m}} and {{cog}}. Why is this so difficult? —Rua (mew) 14:52, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
You're now using {{m}} properly, which is good, but don't forget to use {{inh}} for terms inherited from Proto-Finnic. —Rua (mew) 17:54, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
Category:Ludian terms inherited from Proto-Finnic is practically empty. Can you please start using {{inh}}? —Rua (mew) 17:59, 3 November 2017 (UTC)
You can also leave a clean-up note by {{etystub}} if you're not sure if some Finnic word-group is native or what its proto-form would be. --Tropylium (talk) 18:06, 7 November 2017 (UTC)


What is your source for it meaning "morning"? ETY lists "Ludic huomen" as meaning "tomorrow", and huonduz as meaning "morning". Strombones (talk) 18:19, 4 November 2017 (UTC) Ludian vocabulary -

It clearly says that it means "tomorrow" - here. Although the first translation into Finnish is "huomen", which is a poetic word for "morning", the translations into Russian say "tomorrow" as an adverb and "tomorrow" as a noun. Also, use 4 tildes to signature your posts. Strombones (talk) 18:42, 4 November 2017 (UTC)

Livvi vs. Karelian[edit]

You seem to be on a roll of creating Livvi entries as "Karelian". Many sources call both of these "Karelian", but on Wiktionary we distinguish the two. For adjectives ending in *-eda (= Finnish -ea), the two are usually easy to tell apart: Livvi has -ei, Karelian proper has -ie. --Tropylium (talk) 10:18, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

Depending on your source. I have Makarov's Russko-Karel'skiy Slovar' (Petrozavodsk 1975) and for adjectives ending in *-eda (= Finnish -ea) it clearly states -ei all the time. I apologize for that. (Rajkiandris)

Most likely this means the dictionary in fact is of Livvi, not of Karelian proper. No dialect of Karelian proper has -ei in these. I notice also a few other entries you've created as "Karelian" while they're clearly Livvi, e.g. tavar (Karelian proper is tavara), leugu (Karelian proper is leuga ~ leuka). I've added some notes to WT:About Karelian and WT:About Livvi on this, for future reference. --Tropylium (talk) 18:03, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

Etymology of fúr[edit]

Hi, the sources I've seen contain Proto-Uralic *pura (and not *pura-). What is the reason for the hyphen you added? --Panda10 (talk) 19:57, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

You are right. The only reason I inserted the verb *pura- here is that in Hungarian, the verb fúr (to bore)) seems to be the original form, while the noun fúró (drill) is just a derivation. (Rajkiandris)

Orthography notes[edit]

As long as you're on a roll, please do take a few moments also to familiarize yourself with the writing system and conventions of each particular language. In particular:

  • the letter for a "non-nasal" glottal stop in Nenets is the single symbol ˮ, not two instances of ʼ;
  • the lemma form for Nenets verbs is the 3rd person singular aorist (ending in -сь or -зь), not the bare stem;
  • ȣ̈ and ȣ in Uralic reconstructions indicate "unknown front vowel" and "unknown back vowel" (unknown to the author, anyway); they do not stand for *ü;
  • we use *d and *ď for Proto-Uralic, not *δ and *δ́ (forms with these are OK as redirects, though).

Whatever we do with reconstructions is in principle negotiable, but the first two are a bit more concerning.

--Tropylium (talk) 21:36, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

Thanks. Another issue is PU (Proto-Uralic). How can wole- (and many others here) be PU if no Samoyedic parallels exist? (Rajkiandris)

It's no longer universally accepted that Samoyedic was the first group to branch off, and therefore "Proto-Finno-Ugric" might have been the exact same thing as Proto-Uralic. (For some discussion and references, see e.g. w:Finno-Ugric languages.) We currently deal with this at Wiktionary by treating PFU as an "etymology-only language" — which can be referred to, but for which we will not create any entries separately from PU.
Also, for I should still add this sometime, but *wale- or *wole- (both can be argued for) has been occasionally compared also with the Samoyedic copula *åə-. The rime correspondence is regular, same as in e.g. *kale- > *kåə-.
Lastly, not to be too negative; so I'd like to thank you for incrasing our coverage of basic vocabulary in the more eastern Uralic languages. We are still fairly low even on the larger languages like Komi or Udmurt that have well-established literary traditions. --Tropylium (talk) 15:06, 16 November 2017 (UTC)