User talk:DerekWinters

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WT:HI TR[edit]

I had to correct the transliteration of your Hindi entries according to the link above. --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 17:22, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Sorry for the trouble, I will try and do them properly from now on. Thanks for doing so though. DerekWinters (talk) 17:23, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
Please also see WT:TE TR, etc. Thanks —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 17:26, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

रूपक[edit]

Derek, when you add a new L-2 entry, make sure you put a line between the entries with four hyphens (----). Compare what I did. Thank you for reading. --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 22:48, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

Oh
Good point, thanks for letting me know. DerekWinters (talk) 00:57, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

फ़ोटॉन[edit]

Did you intend to move all four languages to प्रकाशाणु? It’s fine if that is correct, but it’s unusual to move more than one language. —Stephen (Talk) 08:18, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

It most definitely is correct because each of the languages shares the same root, and I am fluent in 2 (Hindi and Marathi) and familiar in the other 2. However, in recent years, the true word has been forgotten by the majority of the public, favoring the usage of the English word. However, earlier works, and my professor of physics, used this word. DerekWinters (talk) 16:06, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

Derived terms in JA entries[edit]

Heya, I see you've added a number of ====Derived terms==== sections to JA entries; thank you for that.

A couple minor points:

  • Make sure that the ====Derived terms==== header comes at the end of the relevant POS or etymology section. Over on the entry, you added it before the POS header ([1]), but then I also see on the entry that you added it in the correct place.  :)
  • The {{l}} template doesn't need the sc parameter for JA. Compare:
    • (ひ, hi) -- using {{l|ja|日|tr=ひ, ''hi''}}
    • (ひ, hi) -- using {{l|ja|sc=Jpan|日|tr=ひ, ''hi''}}
Identical results, at least on my machine with FF 18 running on fully-patched Win 7.

Otherwise, looking good! Thank you for expanding the entries!

Cheers, -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 17:38, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Thank you and I shall be sure to place the entries in the correct location, the easier way now :). DerekWinters (talk) 22:38, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

photon and hydrogen in Sanskrit[edit]

Hi! Regarding the entries such as उदजन (udajana) and प्रकाशाणु (prakāśāṇu) - we can only add words that are actually attested in the written corpus, not made-up words that nobody uses/has used. Modern words coined/borrowed into extinct/ancient languages through some kind of "revival" efforts can only be added if there is evidence for them. E.g. we already have some modern Latin terms that are can be backed by quotations from Vatican publications. So unless there is actual attestation for these Sanskrit terms, they should be removed. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 10:29, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

I understand. In all Indic languages, these words are used (with slight alterations in two or three) and so I assumed that, since they derived from Sanskrit, I should simply add them under Sanskrit too. And I doubt I'll be able to find any scientific articles written in Sanskrit, as they are primarily done in Hindi or English in India. DerekWinters (talk) 03:46, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Hungarian words containing tan (science)[edit]

Hi, the Hungarian words containing tan (science) are compound words (tan is not a suffix). What was your source? Can you please go back and correct all of them? Thanks. --Panda10 (talk) 19:26, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

I corrected all of them and deleted the category. --Panda10 (talk) 20:23, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

Module:te-translit[edit]

I will try later to make it work. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 04:17, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. I think that all that needs to be done is to include Module:te-translit in Module:languages/data2 under Telugu. DerekWinters (talk) 04:20, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
Yes, that's the right place but need to make it work first. Something is not right with diacritics: Module:te-translit/testcases --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 04:33, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
It looks better now, I used literal diacritics, not UTF codes, which were for another script, anyway. Please check: Module talk:te-translit. Do you actually know Telugu? --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 05:07, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
Thank you. No, I don't know how to speak Telugu, but I do know how to write it. The Indic scripts are very to learn once one is, because they are all so similar. DerekWinters (talk) 05:13, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
So, there's no dropping of inherent "a"? Telugu is now partially enabled. To make it mandatory in headword templates, the templates need to change or if manual transliteration is removed, the automatic will work, e.g. see అంకపాళి (aṃkapāḷi) (the first noun I've come across). You can try Tamil, Kannada, etc. based on the Telugu module. If you want to edit here, please consider adding Babel to your user page. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 05:41, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
Yes, the Southern Indian writing systems do not leave off the inherent "a" as the Northern Indian scripts do out of "laziness". Thank you very much. I just made a Kannada one Module:kn-translit, but the test cases are having a problem Module:kn-translit/testcases. Could you take a look? DerekWinters (talk) 05:44, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
I don't know what the problem is there but I will look into it, when I'm at my desktop. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 07:43, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
It seems to work now but please check if all letters are transliterated correctly and nothing's missing. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 11:44, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
Yes, the Kannada one is good, no issues. Thank you for all the help so far. However, as I tried to make a Tamil one Module:ta-translit, there were complications. There are 3 digraphs, {ஃப-f, ஃஜ-z, ஃஸ-x}, but I am unsure how to deal with them properly. If you could help with that as well? DerekWinters (talk) 02:22, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
I didn't have luck with it, sorry. I have asked a question here: Wiktionary:Grease_pit/2014/January#Module:ta-translit_-_another_transliteration_module_.28Tamil.29. Somebody might help later. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 05:46, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
I made a Malayalam one Module:ml-translit and it seems to be working perfectly. However, the last of the testcases returns an error, even though the transliteration matches the expected perfectly. Either way, I still believe it to be fully functional. DerekWinters (talk) 17:26, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
I also just made a Dhivehi one Module:dv-translit and it works perfectly. DerekWinters (talk) 18:25, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
Thanks. There is some problem with Malayalam, see Module talk:ml-translit. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 11:53, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
The Tamil one has been fixed too now. DerekWinters (talk) 21:28, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
I just finished up someone else's Inuktitut syllabics one Module:iu-translit and it works fine too. DerekWinters (talk) 21:50, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
Very good. You can try other languages but you will have to ask for assistance yourself. Those who can help are not very friendly. Good luck! --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 21:54, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
Well, maybe he's not the nicest. And if you're telling me you won't help any longer, I shall be very sad indeed. But for the Tamil and the Inuktitut and the Cherokee I just completed Module:Cher-translit, I was mainly hoping you could simply put them into use. DerekWinters (talk) 23:13, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
If you're happy with testing, you can do it yourself, you already know where to add translit modules - Module:languages/data2 (for languages with the two letter code). For languages, which share a module, you just need to repeat the same line. Of course, you can ask me questions but my Lua knowledge is limited. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 23:37, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
My only issue is that I cannot actually add to it. I don't have editing rights. DerekWinters (talk) 23:40, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
┌─────────────────────────────────┘
I see. Could you make a list of languages/modules to add, so that I can edit easily, e.g. like this:
Malayalam: translit_module = "ml-translit". --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 23:47, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
Tamil: translit_module = "ta-translit"
Inuktitut: translit_module = "iu-translit"
Cherokee: translit_module = "Cher-translit" DerekWinters (talk) 23:51, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
They have been added already: Module:languages/data3/c has Cherokee. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 23:58, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
Oh, thanks. Is it possible I could get editing rights for that page? DerekWinters (talk) 00:12, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

Mass translation-adding[edit]

You need to be more careful when you add blocks of translations: your attempt to add a translation to the computer entry using the non-existent language code "eml" failed with a big fat "Module error: Module error", which you might have noticed if you had checked your edit. FYI, "eml" is a fake code they made up in order to have one for the Emiliano-Romagnol Wikipedia. It's tempting to crib translations from other Wikipedias, but contributors in smaller Wikipedias have a strong tendency to make things up/guess when they don't know a word in their language for something- even when there's a name for it in the language already. Chuck Entz (talk) 08:34, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

がん[edit]

Please don't forget the language section separator: [2]. By the way what's Yoron? Can you add an English entry for it? JamesjiaoTC 21:02, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Whoops. Yoron is a Ryukuan language, like Okinawan and Miyako. I'll add one. DerekWinters (talk) 02:22, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

Module:yi-translit[edit]

Hi,

It seems Yiddish can't be transliterated accurately without vowel points, like Hebrew or Arabic, cf. manual עזה פאס (ezza pas), עזה־שטרײַף (ezza-shtrayf) and automatic עזה פאס (ezh fas), עזה־שטרײַף (ezh-shtrayf) - translations of Gaza Strip. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 05:17, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

Oh I see, I had been under the impression that Yiddish was generally written in a fully pointed way, but it seems that it can vary and is often only partially pointed. Sorry if it caused any errors. DerekWinters (talk) 17:08, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

škl[edit]

Are you sure that word is attested in the Inscriptional Pahlavi script? Please see this discussion. --Vahag (talk) 08:55, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

I must say that I don't think it is attested in that form. Also, I was not aware of this discussion, so I apologize for my mistake. I can change it back, or would you rather revert the change I made? DerekWinters (talk) 19:52, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
I moved it back. --Vahag (talk) 20:37, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

Speedy deletion[edit]

Hi,

Please do not speedy delete entries, especially not 5 from one page without an explanation. If you wish to challenge a word, use WT:RFV (and read the page intro of that page to see what qualifies and what doesn't). Thank you, Renard Migrant (talk) 20:10, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Also, don't delete anything that's in actual use- even erroneously: we're a descriptive, not a prescriptive dictionary. And don't delete terms in scripts that are used by native speakers because they're not the "right" scripts for their languages. Remember, as well, that we aren't limited to any one time or place: if a script was used briefly, then abandoned, we'll want to have entries in the abandoned script for those terms that were known to be written in that script. You can tag incorrect forms as obsolete, proscribed, nonstandard, etc., and you can explain in usage notes why they shouldn't be used. If, on the other hand, you don't think they were ever used with that spelling/script, that's when you would take it to WT:RFV. Chuck Entz (talk) 02:05, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Okinawan kana entries linking to kanji entries[edit]

I noticed you added some more Okinawan content, thank you for that. One minor change to make going forward, please use {{ryu-def}} to link from Okinawana kana entries to their corresponding kanji spellings. I found that you'd used {{ja-def}}, which links to the corresponding Japanese kanji spelling instead of the Okinawan entry.  :) ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 07:02, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Oh whoops. I had copied the code from Japanese entries. I'll be more careful from here on out. DerekWinters (talk) 01:19, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
  • No worries, easy fix.  :) I also noticed that we don't have very many templates for Okinawan. The Japanese templates' code can probably be copied over and tweaked to create new Okinawan templates where required. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 05:51, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

所#Okinawan[edit]

Heya, I'm not fully up on Okinawan, but I do notice that the reading given here matches the mainland on'yomi for 場#Japanese instead. Mainland o shifts to うちなーぐち u, much as the o in okinawa becomes the u in uchinā, so the expected Okinawan on'yomi for 所 would be シュ and for 場 would be ジュー. I checked http://hougen.ajima.jp/hougen.php?q=%E6%89%80 to see what data that might give, and while that list is not exhaustive, it doesn't include any ジョー readings for 所.

FWIW, I also see the listed kun'yomi is tukuru, following the same o > u shift.

Could you have another look at the 所#Okinawan entry? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 06:47, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

Thank you very much for pointing this out, as I had simply run with this. Other sources do point out that 所 can have both シュ or ジュ (in 御所: うんじゅ) for its onyomi reading, although the second one is probably just because of rendaku. However, http://www.jlect.com/entry/350/unju/ notes that 御所 can be うんじょー when topicalized, and perhaps this is what User:Viskonsas saw in some Okinawan text? Should I change them to じゅ?
Side question, what are the Okinawan names for onyomi and kunyomi? DerekWinters (talk) 01:52, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

また、[あなたは]というのは、「うんじょー」になります。これは「うんじゅ」+主格「や」[は]が融合した形になっています。

So if we include any entry for Okinawan うんじょー (or should it be in katakana?), the entry should probably describe this form as a contraction. The じょー part, at any rate, does not appear to be any standard Okinawan reading for .
As far as Viskonsas's edits, yes, those should probably be changed to シュ・ジュ as appropriate. They (he? she?) self-describe as ja-1 with no mention of ryu anything.
  • Re: Okinawan for on'yomi or kun'yomi, I assume that such terms exist in Okinawan, as the phenomenon of both Chinese-derived and native-derived readings for a single character does seem to happen in Okinawan as well, but I don't know what these terms would be. My brief searching so far has also failed to find anything. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 06:24, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
This is wonderful. Thanks! I'll make the changes to , but I think I'll hold off on うんじゅ and うんじょー for now until I better understand them. Most sources tend to treat Okinawan on the same level as Japanese, using hiragana and kanji for "native" terms and katakana for modern borrowings. I also believe that historically, after the Japanese developed hiragana, it was imported to Okinawa and used there as well. So, overall, I think we should stick to the standard rules we know for Japanese writing for the Ryukyuan languages. DerekWinters (talk) 04:16, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

Bengali transliteration module[edit]

Hi,

Are you still interested in Indic languages? Do you think you can work on Module:bn-translit and Module:gu-translit? I will try to address dropping inherent vowels later for Hindi et al, Bengali, Gujarati. Amharic/Tigrinya have a similar problem with dropping vowels. There's no reason we can make these languages transliterated 100% or nearly 100% automatically, they are much easier than Korean or Arabic. Just need to get some help from Lua gurus. @Dick Laurent, Dijan: your help on Bengali transliteration would be much appreciated. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 01:05, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Hi. I'll definitely be able to create a module for Gujarati, but as you noted, the schwa-dropping exists as well in Gujarati (sources say it's different to the schwa-dropping of Hindi, but I've never noticed a difference). Some words will have to be hard-transliterated because Gujarati lacks proper trasnscription for 2 less-used vowel phonemes (ɛ and ɔ), but that shouldn't be too hard.
Bengali on the other hand is a little more complicated (less transparent) and I never have truly learned the script. I'll make a basic Bengali module, but it most definitely won't be ready to use until someone with expertise makes some changes.
Also, I noticed a defect with the Tamil module. "Plosives are unvoiced if they occur word-initially or doubled. Elsewhere they are voiced." I, too, have noticed this, but I'm unable to code Lua with such skill. DerekWinters (talk) 12:24, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
So I've made a Gujarati module, but the testcases show what the main issues are. 1st is the schwa-dropping. 2nd is the uṃ sequence word-finally. It is always to be transliterated ũ, but I am unsure how to code that. 3rd is the issue of ṃ in front of a consonant.
ṃ in front of a velar (k, kh, g, gh) is . In front of a palatal letter (c, ch, j, jh) it is ñ. In front of a retroflex (ṭ, ṭh, ḍ, ḍh) it is . In front of a labial (p, ph, b, bh, m) it is m. In front of a dental (t, th, d, dh) and all remaining consonants (y, r, l, v, ḷ, ś, ṣ, s, h) it is simply n. I also don't know how to code this. Also, this last issue I noted is common to all Indic languages except in a few cases where words will have to be hard-transliterated.
I don't know what we should do about Bengali transliteration. I can see the merits of sticking with a more scholarly system, given the differences in pronunciation between Indian and Bengali dialects, but it shouldn't be identical to the systems used for other Indic languages. For example, where others use a short vowel "a," in Bengali this vowel is pronounced "o," and of course as you guys mention, that vowel is often dropped. — [Ric Laurent] — 16:51, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
Thanks very much. I will address it in due course. Ric, we can choose one system and stick to it. I think you meant "ô", not "o" (the short vowel). There is no 100% consistency in transliterating dropped vowels, so if we come up with a working logic, we could use for many languages like Hindi, Gujarati, Bengali and (surprisingly) Amharic/Tigrinya (short vowel "ə"), e.g. ዩክሬን (yukəren) should be "yukren". Amharic et al (Module:Ethi-translit) also have gemination issue, which is not expressed graphically. Native speakers don't have any problem with it and it seems that some transliterations ignore it altogether. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 22:33, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
I also made an Oriya transliteration module. Its testcases show the same problem of schwa dropping (or in this case ô-dropping). Module:or-translit. DerekWinters (talk) 18:09, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
Do you think you can write a short paragraph describing the rules when, e.g. in Hindi, the inherent vowel "a" is dropped: e.g. ("C" is any consonant, "V" is any vowel, apart from "a") CaCaCa = CaCaC, CeCaCāCaCī = CeCCāCCī (devanāgarī = devnāgrī), etc.? Does it matter, which consonants are involved, e.g. in consonant clusters? CaCCCa = CaCCC or CaCCCa? --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 23:27, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
The idea behind vowel dropping lies with syllabification. A schwa at the end of a syllable is always dropped.
करन - क|रन (ka|ran) (the 'na' becomes 'n')
करना - कर|ना (kar|nā) (the 'ra' becomes 'r)
One major exception is if the schwa is part of a consonant cluster involving a "special" consonant (y, r, l, v, h, ṇ, n, and m) word-finally. The schwa here is not dropped. The words syllabifies by the first member of the cluster becoming part of the previous syllable, and the rest of the cluster becoming its own syllable.
वस्त्र - वस्|त्र (vas|tra) (the 'tra' remains because 'r' is a special consonant)
भस्म - भस्|म (bhas|ma) (the 'ma' remains because 'm' is a special consonant)
Another is if the schwa is part of any consonant cluster (or gemination) word-medially. The schwa here is not dropped. Syllabification happens just as above.
अस्पताल - अस्|प|ताल (as|pa|tāl) (the 'pa' remains because it is part of the cluster)
उत्तम - उत्|तम (ut|tam) (the 'ta' remains because part of cluster) (the 'ma' becomes 'm' because end of syllable)
I laid out a list of some CVC formations.
S - Special Consonants (y, r, l, v, h, ṇ, n, and m)
R - Regular Consonants (all other consonants)
X - any vowel ('a' and all the others)
T - any consonant combination (C or CCC, etc.)
An 'a' on an initial consonant is never dropped.
An 'a' in independent form is never dropped. (अ)
XCa = XC (ila = il)
XCRa = XCR (opsa = ops)
XCSa = XCSa (ustra = us‧tra)
TXCa = TXC (skela = skel)
TXCRa = TXCR (drupta = drupt)
TXCSa = TXCSa (blisva = blis‧va)
XTXCa = XTXC (ertopa = er‧top) (ertapa = er‧tap)
XTXCRa = XTXCR (ertopsa = er‧tops)
XTXCSa = XTXCSa (ertopya = er‧top‧ya)
XCaCV = XCCV (utasi = ut‧si)
XCaTV = XCATV (utasmi = u‧tas‧mi)
XTaTV = XTaTV (ektammo = ek‧tam‧mo) (ektalo = ek‧ta‧lo)
DerekWinters (talk) 09:58, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

@DerekWinters, could you please check if the actual cases in Module:hi-translit/testcases conform. User:Wyang has kindly added and fixed most of them. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 02:12, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Could you check if अंगरेज़ (as opposed to अंग्रेज़) should be "aṁgrez", not "aṁgarez". The latter has a virama (्) after ग, so no problem there but the former hasn't got it. Also pinging @Wyang:. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 04:55, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
I am super dooper impressed. Very, very, very impressed. The transliteration aṁgrez (actually angrez) is correct for both. अंगरेज़ and अंग्रेज़ both get split the same way: अंग्‧रेज़ / अंग‧रेज़. DerekWinters (talk) 11:13, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
I believe this system will work for Gujarati, Marathi, Sindhi, Kutchi, Rajasthani, Marwari, Bhojpuri, Konkani, Saurashtra. Beyond that, I'm not sure if any other languages would work. Gujarati and Kutchi share the same script (Gujarati). Saurashtra has its own script (Saurashtra). All the others use Devanagari. Do you know what we should do about Bengali, Oriya, etc.? @Atitarev: DerekWinters (talk) 07:24, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
Yes, you're right. I don't feel comfortable with Lua, though. Are you able to make a basic Bengali module based on WT:BN TR, perhaps? Then we can ask Wyang to do his magic tricks, also for Gujarati and Oriya by copying the logic? --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 23:59, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
I'll make a Bengali module, but we'll have to have someone verify it before we even try to work with it. DerekWinters (talk) 14:14, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
Sorry for being a lazy poo. I made some edits to the bn-translit module, but after visiting the wiki article and other sources on the Bengali alphabet, I realized why I'm so terrified of it. It's a lot, and we need an expert to help us here. DerekWinters (talk) 08:33, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

હરિકેન[edit]

Hey. Could you check that entry? I'm pretty sure that the transliteration is wrong and I'm not sure if the definition is correct. --Dijan (talk) 02:50, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Oops, sorry about that. I fixed the definition. I don't believe the transliteration is wrong though: હ(ha)રિ(ri)કેન(ken). DerekWinters (talk) 03:50, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
Sorry, I did fix it before you did :) --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 03:52, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
Oops, I must have just completely forgotten. Whoops. Forgive me. DerekWinters (talk) 04:53, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

鏡#Yonaguni[edit]

I'm curious, did you mean to list the definition as water, or was that a copypaste error? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 07:20, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

Oh god. Do forgive me. I keep making these copy-paste errors. I absolutely hate writing an entry from scratch so I copy-paste and sometimes I forget key things. DerekWinters (talk) 08:15, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
  • No worries, I've done that too, with similar erroneous results sometimes.  :) FWIW, you might find the edittools JavaScript useful: [[User talk:Conrad.Irwin/edittools.js]]. This allows you to define your own one-click insertion items. I've found this extremely helpful over the years. Cheers, ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 08:56, 8 February 2015 (UTC)