Wiktionary:Grease pit/2017/December

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discussion rooms: Tea roomEtym. scr.Info deskBeer parlourGrease pit ← November 2017 · December 2017 · January 2018 → · (current)

Automatic links to fr.wikt in French conjugation tables[edit]

Would it be conceivable/desirable to somehow add automatic links to French conjugation appendices (such as fr:Annexe:Conjugaison en français/avoir) in our own French conjugation tables? A little revert war at sourdre makes me think that it would be good to have a conspicuous link to fr:Annexe:Conjugaison en français/sourdre, which is much more complete and nuanced. --Barytonesis (talk) 16:53, 1 December 2017 (UTC)

If it's automatically linkable, why not? As as side note, there's a proposed project to share conjugation code in this year's community whishlist. – Jberkel (talk) 09:21, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

Oddity with standardChars for German[edit]

The entry ſs is being categorized in Category:German terms spelled with S, I believe since "ſ" is considered the lower case form of "S". This seems undesirable. DTLHS (talk) 15:12, 2 December 2017 (UTC)

To fix this, I've added a special case to Module:headword so that the category for the lowercase version (German terms spelled with ſ) would be added, and Module:category tree/charactercat to prevent an error being returned because the letter in the category name is lowercase. There was already a special case for dotless i, ı. — Eru·tuon 19:15, 2 December 2017 (UTC)
@Erutuon Possibly you could make the code more general by doing this test: if the uppercase version is in the StandardChars, then use the lowercase version. —Rua (mew) 12:00, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
@Rua: That's a clever idea. It does work for these two cases, so I'm implementing it. — Eru·tuon 04:26, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

Templates for DOI, JSTOR, etc.[edit]

I just started to create Template:doi to link automatically to article DOIs in quotations, similarly to the way that the "doi" parameter to "cite" on Wikipedia does, or the way Template:ISBN handles ISBNs. I aborted the creation when I saw a warning that the page had been previously deleted, and an administrator note from 2014 that it had been "Migrated to Module:languages and data submodules". Is there any reason why there should not be templates to link to DOI, JSTOR, etc.? If not, what pitfalls exactly was that message trying to warn me about?

Syrenka V (talk) 01:43, 3 December 2017 (UTC)

Template:doi used to refer to a language code (for "Dogri"). That has been moved to Module:languages/data3/d. Shouldn't the template be at Template:DOI? I don't see a problem with creating such a template. DTLHS (talk) 01:45, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
@DTLHS: Thanks! I was using lowercase the way the Wikipedia {{citation}} template's parameters do (or, as I discovered just now, Wiktionary's own{{cite}}template's parameters). Since each template in effect has its own namespace for its own parameters, name collisions between parameters are unlikely. The Wiktionary Template namespace is much larger, so it's probably a better idea to use all caps (DOI, JSTOR, etc., similar to the existing{{ISBN}}template), to avoid name collisions like the one with the old Dogri language code template. But maybe the{{cite}}template will serve my purposes; I see now that it has lowercase "doi" and "jstor" parameters.
Syrenka V (talk) 17:31, 3 December 2017 (UTC)

{{IPAchar}} doesn't allow colons, which makes {{IPAlink}} display an error[edit]

{{IPAlink}} works by putting a link inside an {{IPAchar}}, like so:

{{IPAchar|[[w:voiced bilabial plosive|b]]}}

The colon in [[w:voiced bilabial plosive]] makes {{IPAchar}} display an error on preview (but not when viewing the page) because colons aren't allowed in IPA. A naive solution would be to simply allow colons, but in that case people might accidentally use them instead of ː. A better solution would be to ignore the destination of a link and only process the display text, but I don't know enough about MediaWiki or Lua scripting to do that, thus the post here. Nloveladyallen (talk) 16:16, 3 December 2017 (UTC)

@Nloveladyallen: Sounds like a good idea. Done. — Eru·tuon 19:17, 3 December 2017 (UTC)

Eliminating deprecated parameters from Template:calque[edit]

I've gotten rid of all uses of the old deprecated parameters |etyl lang=, |etyl term=, |etyl tr=, and |etyl t= from {{calque}}. Can someone (e.g. @Rua, Crom daba, Erutuon, Victar) please edit Module:etymology/templates so that those templates don't work at all anymore? Ideally any attempt to use them would result in one of those "this template doesn't use that parameter" module error messages. Thanks! —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 23:53, 4 December 2017 (UTC)

@Mahagaja: I made the edit, but reverted it because I still see entries linking to the tracking template calque/etyl, which tracks these parameters. Apparently some have evaded the means that you used to find the deprecated parameters. — Eru·tuon 00:14, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
I figured it out. CAT:calque with terms tracked {{calque}} templates with multiple terms, which is a subset of those with deprecated parameters. — Eru·tuon 00:22, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
@Erutuon: OK, Template:tracking/calque/etyl now has no pages linking to it. Anything else? —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 01:11, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
@Mahagaja: No, that should be all. I'll remove the parameters and we'll see what happens. — Eru·tuon 01:41, 5 December 2017 (UTC)


when you use {{rfinfl|hy|noun}} as here, you're invited to choose a template from the nonexistent Category:Armenian noun inflection-table templates. but the real category is Category:Armenian declension-table templates. this should be fixed. --2A02:2788:A4:F44:B41C:6EB2:E4BA:9F35 11:39, 5 December 2017 (UTC)


Needs a documentation and as far as I see another parameter. F.e. {{R:Duden|DUDENSPELLING}} produces "[https://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/DUDENSPELLING PAGENAME] in Duden online". There should be a way to do something like {{R:Duden|DUDEN-SPELLING|WHATEVER}} to produce "[https://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/DUDENSPELLING WHATEVER] in Duden online". - 17:33, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

I ran into this recently, will take a look. The template is documented though. – Jberkel (talk) 17:52, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
My bad sry, I corrected the above. - 18:00, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
This was already possible, just not documented. There's a parameter w: {{R:Duden|DUDEN-SPELLING|w=WHATEVER}}. – Jberkel (talk) 20:54, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

Alphabetization in "Template:der3" and others[edit]

It's not necessary to place terms included in a {{der3}} template (and similar templates such as {{der4}} and {{rel3}}) inside {{l}} templates or to hyperlink them using [[ ]], unless one wishes to indicate multiple terms on a line, such as "{{l|en|jumboise}}, {{l|en|jumboize}}". However, I've noticed that if this is done, the template no longer alphabetizes such terms correctly, probably because it is arranging them according to the braces ({{ }}) rather than the terms within them – for example, see "jumbo#Derived terms". Can {{der3}} and similar templates be tweaked to ignore {{l}} and brackets for alphabetization purposes? — SGconlaw (talk) 17:15, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

Why do these templates alphabetise to begin with? I think that "feature" should be removed. I often group derived terms based on the type of derivation. —Rua (mew) 18:21, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
I totally rely on these templates to alphabetize words, especially in a language like Burmese where no one really knows how it's supposed to be alphabetized. —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 20:42, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
Then how does the template know? —Rua (mew) 20:47, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
These templates use Module:columns, and Module:columns sorts by the official sortkey (with some other processing). — Eru·tuon 20:52, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
Also note that sorting can be turned off (though it can only be done when invoking the module on the template page), and there are unsorted equivalents for most of the templates: {{der3}}{{der3-u}}, for instance. Any that does not have an unsorted equivalent can have one. — Eru·tuon 20:54, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
@Rua: I'm not sure, but I think the template uses Unicode order. —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 21:43, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
Yes, Unicode order after each term has been processed into the form used for sorting. — Eru·tuon 21:45, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
I agree with Rua, these templates should not reorder data, we should store the data ordered. - TheDaveRoss 13:48, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
Is this a problem if there are versions of the templates like {{der3-u}} which do not sort? Alternatively, the templates could be tweaked so that by default they do not sort, but sorting can be ordered using a parameter. — SGconlaw (talk) 15:43, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
I agree with Rua and TheDaveRoss. And having yet another template for such a minor difference in behaviour is a poor idea, in my view. --Barytonesis (talk) 13:25, 7 December 2017 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── So it is better just to use {{der3-u}} and manually sort the list in such cases, rather than updating {{der3}} (and related templates) so that {{ and [[ are ignored? — SGconlaw (talk) 04:10, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

@Sgconlaw: No, that was a separate discussion. Regarding your original problem, it needs to be reframed a little. What {{der3}} actually sees when you supply link templates to it, like {{l|en|word}}, is the wikitext that is generated by the template: in this case, <span class="Latn" lang="en">[[word#English|word]]</span>. You can view the wikitext generated by the template by using Special:ExpandTemplates.
To answer your question, it would be possible to filter this stuff out when sorting the words. It would add some processing time and memory. It might be worth it if it is often that a single column template contains both plain words and words formatted with a linking template. If all words use linking templates, they are likely to sort correctly, as they will all start with the same HTML tag and double bracket.
Another option if you want to link multiple words is to use plain wikilinks: [[jumboise]], [[jumboize]]. Those will be converted into language links with language tagging: <span class="Latn" lang="en">[[jumboise#English|jumboise]], [[jumboize#English|jumboize]]</span>. And I think that would sort as jumboisejumboize in the current version of the module. The sorting is done before the language tagging and link piping. — Eru·tuon 04:51, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
Thanks, using plainlinks solved the issue. I think this should be documented on the template documentation pages of {{der3}} and related templates. — SGconlaw (talk) 07:10, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

my user page[edit]

Hello! So I tried to create my user page but anything I do it says it's harmful. All I put was: Hello So, I don't know what to do. Can you let me know please? Thanks! —This unsigned comment was added by Booksssss (talkcontribs).

@Booksssss: What are you trying to put in it? (please don't forget to sign your messages with ~~~~) --Barytonesis (talk) 23:22, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

I put in "Hello" and it said it was harmful. Booksssss (talk) 23:26, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

There's really no reason someone who hasn't made any edits needs a user page. How about you try contributing to the dictionary first, and then create a user page when you have something useful to put on it. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 01:24, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

Some links not being language tagged[edit]

On Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/kʷis in the etymology section, the links *kʷi- and *kʷe- aren't being tagged as PIE, although the following link to *éy is. Any idea why? —Rua (mew) 00:44, 7 December 2017 (UTC)

Apparently ''{{m|ine-pro|*kʷi-}}'' results in <i><i class="Latn" lang="ine-pro">[[Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/kʷi-|*kʷi-]]</i></i> and then the inner i tag is deleted, leaving the one that doesn't have class or language attributes. — Eru·tuon 00:56, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
Whose dumb idea was that? Ugh. —Rua (mew) 13:43, 7 December 2017 (UTC)

Bring Serbo-Croatian entry and translation additions technically up to date to accelerate the treatment of the language[edit]

1. We have a lot of pronunciation templates already, including Slavic ones. Can somebody make a Serbo-Croatian IPA module? It’s the easiest, one letter is one phoneme in Serbo-Croatian Cyrillic and almost the same is the case in Serbo-Croatian Roman where there are just two digraphs.

2. Something has to be done to keep the Serbo-Croatian translations in English lemmata in the best state. The best current practice looks as follows in the code, for the entry hatred:

* Serbo-Croatian:
*: Cyrillic: {{t|sh|мр́жња|f}}
*: Roman: {{t+|sh|mŕžnja|f}}

The visual translation adder should automatically add the entry in the other alphabet if an editor adds an entry in one alphabet to facilitate the addition of Serbo-Croatian translations (else one is forced to edit the source code when one would otherwise use the visual editor for all other languages one knows). Alternatively a bot could fix the entries, but of course it is better if they are just added correctly. Though a bot has to fix older entries anyway. Palaestrator verborum (loquier) 11:13, 7 December 2017 (UTC)

We call it Latin script on Wiktionary, not Roman script: Category:Latin script. —Rua (mew) 13:44, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
I know how it is called. But currently all translations into Serbo-Croatian write “Roman”. I don’t care if it is changed, but it can be solved as I have described. @Rua. Palaestrator verborum (loquier) 14:02, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
They say "Roman" because the translation adder got them confused with the Latin language when they said "Latin". Ideally we should go back to calling them "Latin" and have a more intelligent translation adder. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 10:13, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
We apparently already have an (unused) module for Serbocroat pronunciation: Module:sh-IPA. Still needs some work, though. — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 15:31, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
Well, I’ve gotten the module to a functional state and made a corresponding template, {{sh-IPA}}. Some quick test cases are available here. It seems to be working well as far as standard Serbo-Croatian goes, but if you see anything that needs fixing/changing, I’ll see what I can do. — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 17:41, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

Category:English honorific forms[edit]

Can't we rename that to CAT:English honorific terms? --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 16:32, 10 December 2017 (UTC)

Etymology templates and artificial languages[edit]

At [[silflay]] I wanted to change {{etyl|art-lap|en}} to {{der|en|art-lap}}, but {{der}} doesn't like artificial languages. If I leave |3= empty it says "[Term?]" and adds the entry to CAT:Lapine term requests, which is how {{der}} behaves with normal languages. If you don't want to specify a term with {{der}} and a normal language, you put |3=-. However, if I do that with art-lap, I get a module error saying "A term was provided but the given code 'art-lap' is not a language, and therefore cannot have terms or dictionary entries", which is the usual behavior with language families. So if I don't specify a term, the template asks me to supply one, and if I do specify a term (or a hyphen), the template complains that art-lap isn't allowed to have entries! But note that other templates like {{m}} do not object to having terms in art-lap: {{m|art-lap|silf}} is a well-behaved link. —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 17:33, 10 December 2017 (UTC)

Old Cyrillic characters[edit]

Why are U+A651 [CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER YERU WITH BACK YER] () and U+A657 [CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER IOTIFIED A] () such an eyesore? I mean, look at велиѥꙗдъ (velijejadŭ) or благостꙑни (blagostyni), it's ugly as hell. I wouldn't be bothered if all the characters had this handwritten feel to them, but here it sticks out like a sore thumb. Is this a problem on my part, on Wiktionary's part, or on Unicode's part? --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 18:57, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

It sounds like it's a font issue. Your browser is using one font for most of the characters, but another font for the two characters you point to. So you probably need a font that contains all the characters alike. I use Monomakh Unicode TT, and the words look fine. — Eru·tuon 19:14, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
I see them all in the same font, and it looks fine. —Rua (mew) 19:20, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
Yes, almost definitely a font issue; these characters, unlike the rest, are in the Unicode block Cyrillic Extended-B, which probably isn’t supported by whichever font the browser is defaulting to. The font used for Old Cyrillic at Wiktionary attempts to default to one of the options listed under Old Cyrillic (Old Church Slavonic, Old East Slavic) at MediaWiki:Common.css, so installing any one of them would probably solve the problem. (For me all Old Cyrillic defaults to the BukyVede font, which looks nice enough.) — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 19:26, 11 December 2017 (UTC)