Wiktionary:Tea room/2017/December

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discussion rooms: Tea roomEtym. scr.Info deskBeer parlourGrease pit ← November 2017 · December 2017 · January 2018 → · (current)


The pallium in Neuroanatomy is not the same as the cortex, but more like its embryonary origin. Thus, I don't think the definition should redirect to the cortex (and neither the translations section). --Pablussky (talk) 09:30, 1 December 2017 (UTC)


This entry is not created. Is this a SoP? Dokurrat (talk) 18:06, 1 December 2017 (UTC)

I don't think so; English rat poison exists. Wyang (talk) 22:57, 1 December 2017 (UTC)

Talk pages[edit]

Every time I try to write something in a talk page two messages are proposing to not write there. The talk pages of a wiki project are specific pages for discussion about problems in the page so that future editors can see them. By not writing there we "hide" from future editors of that page all these problems. Consider also that some new editors may understand these messages not as hints but as a community request and will not edit the talk page, leaving future editors without clues about problems in that page. We should somehow inform future editors about all other discussions made throughout the years for that specific page. Either by poking an automatic notice that discussions exist, there and there, or by some other idea. The message about the fact that "general questions" should be asked in another place is ok. --Xoristzatziki (talk) 06:53, 2 December 2017 (UTC)

That's why I try to make it a personal habit to put a link to the community pages on the specific talk pages: Talk:paradis fiscal, Talk:tax haven, for example. It's been useful on at least one occasion: Talk:about that life (see the last discussion). But it's rather tedious, and going back to old Tea room/Etymology Scriptorium discussions would be even more. I wish we had some sort of archiver. There's one for RfV and RfD requests, but it removes the discussion from the community page; here we'd want to leave it there. --Barytonesis (talk) 10:45, 2 December 2017 (UTC)

Old-fashioned window[edit]

Hello! How do we call this type of window? Is there a (specific) term for it? Casement? Thank you very much! --หมวดซาโต้ (talk) 08:55, 2 December 2017 (UTC)

awning window. See Wikipedia-logo-v2.svg Window on Wikipedia.Wikipedia . DCDuring (talk) 14:30, 2 December 2017 (UTC)

older brother and older sister[edit]

What's going on in the translation tables here? ---> Tooironic (talk) 14:34, 2 December 2017 (UTC)

Special:Diff/42846770 and Special:Diff/42846768 by -sche. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 14:46, 2 December 2017 (UTC)


In my observation, this word has been increasingly and steadily associated with internet pornography diffusion. Should we update this entry to reflect such usage? Dokurrat (talk) 18:52, 2 December 2017 (UTC)

It has a whole range of usages. I think it would be misleading to single out any particular one. ---> Tooironic (talk) 02:24, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
I think that ## {{lb|zh|specifically}} would be harmless. —suzukaze (tc) 02:27, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
I think this more comes under the heading of Usage notes. But if you added that connotation you'd have to add all the other ones as well, otherwise it would look like that is the most common usage (which it isn't). ---> Tooironic (talk) 13:36, 3 December 2017 (UTC)

Script for Cham words[edit]

បែក#Etymology, egg/translations, and Đà_Nẵng#Etymology_2 all use different scripts for cja: Cham, Arab, Latn. Is this right? —suzukaze (tc) 02:33, 3 December 2017 (UTC)


Would gangan be i-umlauted in 2nd and 3rd person present to give something like geng(e)st and geng(e)þ? I couldn't find these conjugations on B&T but Old Engli.sh has gengþ. May or may not be right, just don't know. Anglish4699 (talk) 03:04, 3 December 2017 (UTC)

Hmmm, initially I would say yes, and I would think the forms would be *gæng-. Even though we don't have an Old English attestation of it, there is an early Middle English attestation of gengþ from 1275: Þe hare..gengþ wel suiþe a waywart which suggests that it may have been inherited from Old English. Some consider gengþ to be derived from another verb, however, OE gengan, so it's difficult to say for sure. The presence of gengan may have led to the substitution of non-mutated forms in gangan to avoid confusion, but I am just guessing on that. Otherwise, gangan is a strong verb, and is expected to typically have i-mutation in the stem. But I think the way you show it in the Conj table is fine as is Leasnam (talk) 13:57, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
Ah, I see. Many thanks for the help! Anglish4699 (talk) 04:10, 6 December 2017 (UTC)


@Wyang, Justinrleung, Dokurrat Can this also be pronounced as "mo" or "m" in words like 什麼/怎麼? If so, should they be included in the entry? —suzukaze (tc) 05:50, 3 December 2017 (UTC)

@Suzukaze-c: According to 漢語方言詞彙, in Beijing, 什麼 can be shénm; 這麼, zènm; 那麼, nènm; 怎麼, zěnm. As a side note, I've also heard of 什麼 read as shě(n)mé. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 05:57, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
@Suzukaze-c: Well... I think I pronounce this syllable as a m+schwa (unstressed), i.e. /-mə/ in my daily life. If I intentially pronounced this syllable stressed (e.g. giving a speech, singing a song), I think I would speak something like /-m(ɯ̽)ʌ/. I think "/-m/" is a more weak form that can be heard in colloquial speech. Not "*mo", at least not me. Disclaimer: personal experience. Dokurrat (talk) 06:08, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
@Suzukaze-c: But "*mo" do looks promising... Maybe we can find verification somewhere in very conservative dictionaries? Dokurrat (talk) 06:12, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
(Teresa Teng uses 怎麼 "zenmo" here. —suzukaze (tc) 06:16, 3 December 2017 (UTC))
@Suzukaze-c: It's probably the same situation as 了 liao and 的 di, where the "original" pronunciation of the character is used. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 06:18, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
I did not think to compare it to those cases 😅. 的#Etymology_2 includes di; should 了#Etymology_1 and 麼#Etymology_1 include liao and mo? —suzukaze (tc) 06:26, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
Yes, mo is an alt reading used in certain registers and is worthy of inclusion. I think m would be better handled as an |m_note=. Wyang (talk) 15:49, 3 December 2017 (UTC)


This term can be used outside of mathematics, figuratively, right? Could someone add this? ---> Tooironic (talk) 14:26, 3 December 2017 (UTC)

Yes check.svg Done Equinox 20:38, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
Thanks. ---> Tooironic (talk) 23:39, 4 December 2017 (UTC)


We've an adverb section for precious, where we're glossing it as "very". However, I'm not aware of it being used in other phrases than "precious few" and "precious little". Should I add a note at precious, and create those? (which other dictionaries have) --Barytonesis (talk) 20:22, 3 December 2017 (UTC)

Interesting. I thought there must be other words it goes with, but can't think of any. Equinox 20:39, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
"it is of the two-dimensional variety, length and breadth, but precious scant depth" [1].
"The interest on these being deducted, amounting to $600,000, it being doubtful whether they will ever pay the cost of maintenance, and there remains but a precious small sum for defraying the interest on the cost of the enlargement" [2].
"but that is a mere trifle to your facility for building up a formidable theory on precious slight foundations". [3] Mihia (talk) 04:30, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
@Mihia: Thanks for this. I still think that "precious few" and "precious little" might deserve an entry, and that at the very least, a note to the effect of "this adverb is chiefly/overwhelmingly used with "few" and "little"" should be added to precious. Do you agree? --Barytonesis (talk) 18:37, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
And in any case, this only works with adjectives belonging to the semantic field of "little, small, scarce, few". --Barytonesis (talk) 18:42, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
Yes, a note seems a good idea. My suggestion would be something like "used with words that express smallness of quantity, especially in the phrases 'precious few' and 'precious little'". Mihia (talk) 21:03, 8 December 2017 (UTC)

out of doors[edit]

Is it simply an alt form of outdoors? Shouldn't it be labeled as "rare"? --Barytonesis (talk) 20:56, 3 December 2017 (UTC)

Yes, I think you’re right that it’s an alt form. I can’t think of any circumstance where they wouldn’t be interchangeable (and out of doors is also used in the noun senses of outdoors, which are currently absent from the former entry). On the other hand, it’s far from rare; maybe “dated” would be a better label, since it doesn’t turn up often in works since the 1950s or so. Google Ngrams confirms that it’s falling out of use, and that it was once as common as outdoors is now. — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 02:13, 4 December 2017 (UTC)

For a bot?[edit]

In Category:English words prefixed with anti- some pages anti-+ROOT are collated as beginning with anti- and others with the ROOT. Can a bot fix this easily?

Curious, as I'm not native. Why is anti- pronunciation given as /i/ or /aɪ/ and later in antibiotic as /ə/? Sobreira ►〓 (parlez) 13:28, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
As the British and American pronunciations for anti- differ, it may depend on where the contributor is from. DonnanZ (talk) 13:33, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
Many Americans have them in free variation, fixed only in common lexical items. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 00:01, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
Presumably the /ə/ here should in any case be notated as diaphonemic /ɨ/, as the reduced realization of this vowel is like the one in roses, varying by speaker from [ɪ] to [ɪ̈] to [ə]. Although we notate this vowel as /ɪ/ at enough and the second syllable of mistress, so it seems we’re being inconsistent anyway. — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 14:31, 9 December 2017 (UTC)


Would someone know how the Latin superstitio (which comes from supersto (to stand over/upon; to survive)) came to mean what it means? --Barytonesis (talk) 23:19, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

According to etymonline, "There are many theories to explain the Latin sense development, but none has yet been generally accepted; de Vaan suggests the sense is "cause to remain in existence." Originally in English especially of religion; sense of "unreasonable notion" is from 1794.". DTLHS (talk) 04:35, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
Lewis and Short's entry has: "sŭperstĭtĭo , ōnis, f. super-sto; orig a standing still over or by a thing; hence, amazement, wonder, dread, esp. of the divine or supernatural." DCDuring (talk) 13:49, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
It is because you imagine things being above your head when you have a godly world in mind. Note that it does mean “religion” in general first. Palaestrator verborum (loquier) 18:31, 7 December 2017 (UTC)

ᚦᚢᚱ, ᚱᛅᛁᛋᛅ[edit]

These two are listed as Old Norse, but should they be Proto-Norse (gmq-pro)? If so, there may be more included in Old Norse [4] DonnanZ (talk) 13:27, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

Per Wikipedia, "[Proto-Norse] evolved into the dialects of Old Norse at the beginning of the Viking Age in about 800", so theoretically, a 10th/11th century inscription wouldn't qualify. --Barytonesis (talk) 13:42, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

point of inquiry[edit]

Why was my entry of Point of Inquiry reverted? (The process of finding answers and seeking new knowledge) Would 'An entryway into idealization on a specific topic' be a more apt description? —This unsigned comment was added by AaronEJ (talkcontribs) at 18:42, 2017 December 6.

I don't know the specifics, but I would probably revert it myself. At the very least I would RfV it to determine whether there really is any attestation that unambiguously supports the definition provided, especially as a cursory review of other dictionaries (point of inquiry at OneLook Dictionary Search) suggests that none of the included dictionaries find it entryworthy with any definition. That w:Point of Inquiry is for a podcast makes me suspicious that the entry was intended to promote the podcast. (That the entity may be non-commercial does not negate the possibility of promotion.) DCDuring (talk) 23:45, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
Is point of inquiry in politics really anything different than the SoP term? Is it defined anywhere in a parliamentary authority, eg, in Robert's Rules of Order or Erskine May: Parliamentary Practice, or somewhere in Hansard? DCDuring (talk) 23:59, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

Oil-press (or machine) parts[edit]

Can someone help me identify the parts to this in English? I'll list the names in clockwise order spiralling inwards starting from the top:

Outer parts: માકડો, કૂકરી, ફાડ, વાંકેલી, નાડવેલો, માંચ, પૈયું - wheel, ધીંસરું, ઝોળો, કૂકરી - a wooden wedge?, ડાબિયાર, કસવાટ - a wooden frame?, કોઠો, ???, લાઠ, ચૂડી;
Inner parts: ગધેલું, ફાચેરો, કૂંડી, ગજ, જાંગી, થડ, ફીસણ, ઠોઠિયું, નાળવું
Please help. DerekWinters (talk) 00:27, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
Was the deleted image of an olive-oil press? There is a commons category of such images. DCDuring (talk) 16:37, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
The deleted image seems to have been this one. — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 23:25, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
The stones are a counterweight to allow the operator(s) to lift the pestle(?). All the stuff at the top of the lever that raises and lowers the pestle looks like some lashing to link the curved bit (metal?) to the compound-curved arm (wood?). It looks like the curved bit is not fixed to the lever but attached with rope that has substantial play. Perhaps the chain and the other lever arms also serve to impart circular motion to the pestle, but I don't get the principle. At the bottom of the mortar or drum is a basin to catch leakage and spillage from the opening at the bottom of the mortar. The L-shaped bit must be a latch to hold the door over the opening shut. The ring seems to be intended to hold the short arm the goes through the big lever and the horn-shaped arm to the big lever arm.
I don't understand the full role of the horn-shaped piece that bears on the mortar/drum. Nor do understand the role of the chain
I wonder whether the oar-shaped arm is where the power is applied by men or oxen to impart circular motion to the counterweighted pestle through the heavy horizontal arm.
Alternatively, is the linkage mechanism between the "oar" and the heavy arm intended to impart some limited up-and-down motion to the pestle to press the oil? If we understand how it is supposed to work we could probably find names for the components.
Commons has some pictures of rustic olive-oil presses that might help. DCDuring (talk) 04:29, 10 December 2017 (UTC)

to the effect[edit]

I don't know how to do this entry. --Barytonesis (talk) 18:38, 7 December 2017 (UTC)

in twain[edit]

Archaic, rare, humorous? --Barytonesis (talk) 23:45, 7 December 2017 (UTC)

archaic Leasnam (talk) 03:14, 8 December 2017 (UTC)

at your service[edit]

Our definition is strangely restrictive. Doesn't it simply mean "[I'm] at your disposal"? --Barytonesis (talk) 20:29, 8 December 2017 (UTC)

I think our definition is wrong. The ones included under References are different. DCDuring (talk) 22:24, 8 December 2017 (UTC)


For the verb, this entry previously existed:

To drive around leisurely in a motorised vehicle.

In the UK, at least, there is a dated meaning of "travel by motor car", which does not necessarily imply "around" or "leisurely", so I added:

(Britain, dated) To make a journey by motor vehicle.

But are these actually distinct meanings? Does anyone recognise the first one as modern usage? What is AmE usage here? (And, by the way, is anyone else unhappy, like me, about using "leisurely" as an adverb?) Mihia (talk) 03:03, 9 December 2017 (UTC)

I wouldn't use it intentionally and it shouldn't be in a definiens, IMO. We could use three citations of its use. The one we have might be a way of indicating low-social-status/education of a Chandler hard-boiled detective. I am also chagrined by [[leisurelily]], which I can't imagine anyone actually saying out loud. DCDuring (talk) 20:35, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
I found about as many mentions of leisurelily as uses, some possibly jesting. One work said leisurely#Adverb derives from leisurelily by haplology. Other works mention others adjectives whose -ly form adverbs follow the same pattern: kindly, friendly, lonely, lovely, holy, homely, weekly, deadly, sickly, jolly. DCDuring (talk) 20:44, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
I don't buy that "leisurely" derives from "leisurelily", in the sense that people tried out "leisurelily" first and then decided to simplify it. I think that "leisurelily" most probably was hardly attempted in the first place. For me, many (not all) of those other words sound equally wrong as adverbs. Mihia (talk) 01:27, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
Wiktionary:Tea_room/2016/October#likely and Category:English words suffixed with -ly (adjectival). --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 01:42, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
Sense 1 seems to me to not be a distinct sense. Also, sense 4 seems a particular application of sense 3. Other dictionaries, including my back-straining MW2, don't have these, but do have other senses that are dated and not common, but seem real. DCDuring (talk) 03:57, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
OK, I have merged them. If anyone disagrees, please restore. Mihia (talk) 20:26, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
I don't drive but to describe car travel as "motoring" in Britain definitely has a dated ring to it. (P.S. The "leisurely" argument has got long enough that it should be moved elsewhere.) Equinox 01:35, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

son (German)[edit]

Should son include the meanings "1. (colloquial; singular only) contraction of so ein, alternative form of so'n; 2. (colloquial; in plural) such", that is should the second sense from sone be moved? And should there be an inflection table like this (based on the one from so'n)?

Case Singular Plural
m f n
Nominative son sone son sone
Genitive sones soner sones soner
Dative sonem soner sonem sonen
Accusative sonen, son sone son sone


  • If certain forms (like genitive) are doubtful, there could be an RFV and either doubtful forms get attested, or replaced by — or marked as not attested (e.g. if the unattested forms are at least mentioned in linguistic papers).
  • It could be that so'n has the plural so'ne (and "so 'n" might have "so 'ne"), but for the plural pronoun meaning such that spelling seems to be inferior as the plural pronoun is no proper contraction.

- 13:26, 9 December 2017 (UTC)

en (French)[edit]

This entry is listed under "Pronoun":

  1. Adverbial preposition indicating movement away from a place already mentioned.
    Est-ce qu'elle vient de Barcelone ? Oui, elle en vient.
    Does she come from Barcelona? Yes, she does.

I don't see how an "Adverbial preposition" can be a pronoun, but I leave it up to those whose French is better than mine to determine what, if anything, should be done with this. Mihia (talk) 14:06, 9 December 2017 (UTC)

It isn't a preposition at all, but it is adverbial. I'd just call it an adverb rather than a pronoun. It does have a certain pronominalness about it, but then so do adverbs like here and then. —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 20:51, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
Well, they are all pro-forms (hence, I’d guess, the ‘pronominalness’); it’s just that they’re pro-adverbs rather than pronouns, and pro-adverbs usually don’t get analyzed as constituting a separate part of speech from other adverbs. — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 23:20, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
If a pronoun is a pro-form that stands in for a noun phrase and a pro-verb is a pro-form that stands in for a verb phrase, then en and y are "pro-prepositions" since they stand in for prepositional phrases. I would say that the usual term for "pro-preposition" is adverb; in other words, adverbs are nothing more than pro-forms that stand in for prepositional phrases. This is true even of adverbs that don't feel "pronominal" such as computationally, which is just a substitute for the prepositional phrase "in a computational manner". At any rate, while I understand that y and en are called pronouns in French-language pedagogy, I don't think that's linguistically accurate. What they are is adverbs. —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 09:28, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
en can usually be translated 'thereof' or 'therefrom'; what do we call those words? —Tamfang (talk) 09:08, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

Adding 毆打 to tbe "compounds" section of [edit]

I am afraid I do not how to do it properly, but I think 毆打 should be a "Derived word" of . --Backinstadiums (talk) 15:27, 9 December 2017 (UTC)

The entry has been expanded now. Wyang (talk) 15:32, 9 December 2017 (UTC)

motor (again)[edit]

At motor:


motor (not comparable)

  1. (biology) describing neurons that create the ability to move
    She has excellent motor skills.

Is this an adjective? Mihia (talk) 20:31, 9 December 2017 (UTC)

I don't think so:
  • "Those are very motor neurons you've got there."
  • "Those neurons are motor."
  • "Those are the most motor (motorest) neurons I've ever seen."
It would be wonderful if we could get someone to clean up all of the similarly erroneous adjective sections. DCDuring (talk) 20:59, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
OTOH some dictionaries have several adjective definitions for motor, apparently based on adjective usage that does not correspond semantically to any noun usage. See motor at OneLook Dictionary Search, eg, MWOnline. DCDuring (talk) 21:07, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
Specifically, MWOnline has "1c : of, relating to, concerned with, or involving muscular movement" motor areas of the brain". The also have an entry for motor neuron. DCDuring (talk) 21:09, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
Surprisingly enough Oxford (listed in the refs under One Look) treats motor as an adjective, albeit attributive and not comparable.
1British [attributive] Driven by a motor.
‘a motor van’
1.1 Relating to motor vehicles.
‘motor insurance’
2 [attributive] Giving or producing motion or action.
‘demand is the principle motor force governing economic activity’
2.1 Physiology: Relating to muscular movement or the nerves activating it.
‘the motor functions of each hand’
What else can I say? DonnanZ (talk) 15:20, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
To me the "motor" in "motor skills" is an adjective, even though it's not comparable etc., just because I can't imagine a realistic sentence where it would stand alone as a noun. Equinox 17:54, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
For what it's worth, French moteur in that sense is an adjective as well (definitely not a noun!), even though it's not comparable, etc. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 18:00, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
I'm sure that it is an adjective. But the definition is wrong - "motor insurance" has nothing to do with neurons. I'll see if I can improve it. SemperBlotto (talk) 05:47, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
Oxford Dictionaries notwithstanding, I cannot agree that "motor" is an adjective in "motor insurance". Mihia (talk) 01:02, 12 December 2017 (UTC)
I can see Oxford's angle, motor trade is another one which may be a contraction of "motor vehicle trade". It doesn't actually have a motor, but handles the sale and repair of motor vehicles and sale of parts. Equally, motor insurance could be a contraction of "motor vehicle insurance". DonnanZ (talk) 10:08, 12 December 2017 (UTC)
In (neuro)physiological contexts, motor *is* an attributive adjective formed from a specific sense of motor borrowed directly from Latin, i.e. 'that which causes to move; mover' (agent noun of moto#Latin, frequentative of moveo#Latin). So, motor function, motor disease, motor pathway, motor neuron, "excellent motor functions" are all intended in this sense. As for automobiles, it might need some tweaking. Moogsi (talk) 18:28, 13 December 2017 (UTC)


I do not know how exactly to write the entry for "lyrata". I have come to understand the meaning of "lyrata" (please read this section: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Glossary_of_leaf_morphology&oldid=814744686#lyrata); I would appreciate it if someone would write and create the page for "lyrata". --NoToleranceForIntolerance (talk) 17:52, 10 December 2017 (UTC)

I see no evidence on Google Books for use in English. I have created the entry for the Latin inflected form. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 19:57, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
Lyrate and lyreleaf are corresponding English words. DCDuring (talk) 22:43, 11 December 2017 (UTC)


Anyone want to deal with this trainwreck? [5] Equinox 19:34, 10 December 2017 (UTC)

@Equinox: Mahagaja posted about it in the GP. As it's a technical issue, I'm not sure how this is relevant to the TR. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 19:53, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
I had always assumed that it was a verb. But is it used outside of the one (quite famous) book? SemperBlotto (talk) 05:44, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
Why don't you look at the entry and see? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 10:11, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
In Watership Down itself I think it is a verb, but in the other works that use it without reference to WD it always seems to be a noun. In all the quotes, it's preceded by a preposition, either on silflay, at silflay, or to silflay (in the 2011 quote it could theoretically be a verb, I suppose, but not in the other three quotes). At any rate, none of this solves the problem that {{der}} seems to think that art-lap is simultaneously both a language and not a language. (Schrödinger's language?) —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 13:54, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

beat to[edit]

Shouldn't this be moved to beat to it? Cf. [6], [7], [8]. --Barytonesis (talk) 12:06, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

But you can have a full noun in place of it, e.g. "John beat me to the restaurant". —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 13:56, 11 December 2017 (UTC)


Should this entry exist? Isn't this the same word as đại, but capitalized because it's in a proper noun? — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 20:21, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

Agreed. Wyang (talk) 15:41, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

big toe[edit]

Is this informal, slightly informal, totally standard? --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 22:18, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

I think that the abundant use of the term found at Google Scholar suggests that it is standard. This Google N-gram search shows that it is at present more common than its synonyms great toe (formerly much more common) and hallux. DCDuring (talk) 22:34, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
I suspect that the frequency shift comes from L2 speakers. These are more likely to use “big” and not to use “great” in the size sense (but learners learn to use “great” as “awesome”, “dope”). And yeah, maybe the same applies to children, so it would be slightly informal. Palaestrator verborum (loquier) 06:07, 12 December 2017 (UTC)
In the UK this is totally standard. I have never heard any other form of the term. SemperBlotto (talk) 06:13, 12 December 2017 (UTC)
In the US, I'd never heard "great toe". I suspect that it lingers in book-based frequency data because of reprints of earlier works. DCDuring (talk) 06:41, 12 December 2017 (UTC)


Could someone check if the recent IP contributions make sense? @Lirafafrod? --Barytonesis (talk) 15:07, 12 December 2017 (UTC)


The plurals are much too distracting. Any idea for improvement? --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 18:51, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

I guess we could remove those that are identical to the top one, adding perhaps "unless otherwise specified" to the already present "plural media or mediums" on the quote-unquote title before sense 1. Note that I suggest removing "media or mediums", not "mediums or media", because the order, I guess, suggests which one is more commonly employed for each sense. MGorrone (talk) 21:14, 12 December 2017 (UTC)


The second quotation uses hinstellen instead of hinsetzen. Matt Zjack (talk) 20:42, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

Fixed. —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 21:21, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

"An Ancient translation"?[edit]

I just looked for ἀνία and noticed that the "no results" window displayed "ἀνία is an Ancient translation of the word boredom ("state of being bored").". Err, what? "an Ancient translation"? Surely you mean "Ancient Greek" right? What can be done about this? MGorrone (talk) 21:11, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

Good catch. I don't think it's going to be easy to fix, because it's a feature of MediaWiki:Gadget-TranslationAdder.js. It's somehow related to the problem above. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 21:20, 12 December 2017 (UTC)
On the contrary, it was easy to fix. The translation table at boredom was using the label "Ancient:" instead of "Ancient Greek:", that's all. —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 21:22, 12 December 2017 (UTC)
@Mahagaja: Yes, but you'll have to fix that manually everytime. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 21:25, 12 December 2017 (UTC)
I think Ancient Greek should not be listed under Greek in translations. What are we saying by doing this? This behavior is controlled in MediaWiki:Gadget-TranslationAdder-Data.js by the way. DTLHS (talk) 05:00, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
People call both Ancient Greek and Modern Greek Greek. If someone wants to find an Ancient Greek translation in the Translations section, he looks for Greek in the alphabetical order. By doing this, we are acknowledging that people call Greek of any epoch Greek. —Stephen (Talk) 06:48, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
Does anyone know what the above-mentioned message in the search results is generated by? Maybe the script or whatever it is could automatically determine that the language name is "Ancient Greek". — Eru·tuon 07:31, 13 December 2017 (UTC)


Wondering if þrīfeald should be moved to þrifeald since B&T does not show þrī, but it shows þri. Should this ī to i worry us? Anglish4699 (talk) 05:24, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

Old English really didn't use macrons, macrons are added today to indicate probable vowel lengths. As such, there would be no need to "move" the entry, as the entry title would remain the same. I think that there is sufficient reason to keep the vowel long though, since the word is made up of þrī + -feald. We could show one or the other as an alternative form though Leasnam (talk) 16:29, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
B&T also shows the OFS and OHG with a short vowel, which should be long...my experience with B&T (and don't get me wrong, I love em !) is that you have to be careful about the many typos and other "mistakes" they have :\ Leasnam (talk) 16:39, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
From a PIE standpoint, there's three possible grades, *trey-, *troy- and *tri-. The first and third of these would become *þrī- and *þri- respectively. —Rua (mew) 17:04, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

Pronunciation of Ancient Greek and Latin diphthongs[edit]

In Ancient Greek does the pronunciation of "ai" in "-ái̯.os" differ from that of "ai" in "-aí̯.aː" or are they "áios" "áiā" (or "áj.jos" "áj.jā"?)?

And how differs it from Latin "-ae̯.us"? In sound examples here I hear "aius" (or "aj.jus"?)...

As in Latin [-ae̯.ʊs] Ancient Greek pronunciation should show this kind of spelling (some say [-aĵ.jos]) and in both languages there should be pronunciation for all genders...

Thank you. -GuitarDudeness (talk) 18:52, 13 December 2017 (UTC)