User talk:GuitarDudeness

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Again, welcome! -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 22:29, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Ἕως[edit]

Thanks for your edit here. There were a few issues, which I have since corrected. Specifically, Ἠώς (Ēṓs) is an Ancient Greek alternative spelling, not a modern Greek descendant. Take a look at the changes I made, not all of which had to do with your edit. Any questions, feel free to ask. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 22:29, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for the clearing up. I saw it and I just made that quick connection to link the two pages. Can you further clarify as to what dialects they belong? Ηως to Ionic and Εως to Attic, perhaps? GuitarDudeness (talk) 07:17, 15 May 2013 (UTC)
My sources are crap on proper nouns, but what they have seem to indicate that Ἕως (Héōs) is Attic, but give no dialect on Ἠώς (Ēṓs), though Ionic is a reasonable suspicion. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 21:38, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

top5, mid5[edit]

We tend to limit the columns to 4 in Latin entries. If a section becomes too long, it is possible to use a collapsing display, as in some of the English entries. The 5-column format exists primarily on entries about punctuation and on pages indexing given names. It's not a general style feature. --EncycloPetey (talk) 17:15, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Babel[edit]

Hi, would you add a {{Babel}} box to your userpage so we know what sort of language proficiencies you have? I've elected to whitelist you, but to do that, we will need to know a little more about you. Thanks. JamesjiaoTC 22:43, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

ῥέω[edit]

See User talk:Fsojic#ποιέω. ObsequiousNewt (ἔβαζα|ἐτλέλεσα) 22:38, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Ἡρῴδης[edit]

Thanks for your addition of the etymology here. I spent a while looking for this. Where did you find the answer? : )JohnC5 (Talk | contribs) 21:41, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

Hello, thank you for noticing and commenting. From a Greek standpoint it is/ should be either from Hera of Hero (more interesting if the two are truly connected) but then there is this information which claims a Semitic origin. What do you make of it? We could add the three possibilities to the Etymology. —GuitarDudeness (Talk | contribs) 12:05, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
Thank you for finding this source and for making this edit! I would be inclined to add these two etymologies due to the uncertainty (thought the Semitic explanation does not seem to account for the iota subscripting of the (ṓi)). I wasn't aware Hebrew had ōi/ōy clusters. The etymology ἥρως/Ἡρώ + ᾠδή seems the most likely to me. I'm going to bring in @Atelaes in on this question (I hope neither of you minds). As someone who works on both AG and Hebrew, Atelaes might have an opinion (though I'm not sure I've spoken to Atelaes directly before). —JohnC5 (Talk | contribs) 22:47, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
For etymologizing Ancient Greek names you can use the outdated but still useful Wörterbuch der griechischen Eigennamen by Pape & Bensler. It derives Ἡρῴδης from ἥρως, translating the name into German literally as Frohs, from OHG fro, I assume. --Vahag (talk) 17:53, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

*meh1- and metron[edit]

I noticed your edit, but I wonder how come the Ancient Greek form has a short e. A long ē would be expected due to the laryngeal. —CodeCat 14:56, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

Thank you, I can see that, but I also do not see it uncommon in Greek words :/ (e.g. δόσις<*déh₃tis ?). Until now I have seen it referred to PIE *méh₁-trom. It has to be it... How are we on μανθάνω (manthánō), was it not referred to this root? And does not *med- bear any relation to *meh₁-? GuitarDudeness (talk) 15:10, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
PIE nouns in *-tis (and *-tus) are not good examples as they underwent a later change that made their descendants all take the oblique zero-grade as the root. δόσις comes from a form closer to *dh̥́₃tis.
In the case of *méh₁-trom, this would produce *μῆτρον. Beekes claims that, in Greek, NHC- developed differently than the normal outcome of -CNHC- (-CNη/ᾱ/ωC-), leading to Nε/ᾰ/οC-. He thus uses *ḿ̥h₁-trom > *mh̥́₁-trom > *métron > μέτρον.
μανθάνω (manthánō) belongs to *men- and *dʰeh₁- in the form of *mn̥(s)-dʰh₁- meaning "put one's mind". —JohnC5 23:03, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

πλέω[edit]

I hope that you haven't done that to too many, it's modern Greek as well!   :)   — Saltmarshσυζήτηση-talk 04:53, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

I know, but as the page seemed a mixture of Ancient and today's Greek formats I just adapted it to Ancient Greek to at least have the fundament over which to create the Greek page. Sorry. Just did it to that one. And you did to it rightly what I hoped, thank you. :) GuitarDudeness (talk) 11:05, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

Etymology of Down[edit]

Your recent addition of the meaning to a possible P.I.E. root, makes more sense! The previous semantic was just nonsense. Andrew H. Gray 08:33, 1 December 2015 (UTC)Andrew

Thank you. It was all there, just dispersed through this and that page.GuitarDudeness (talk) 18:20, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

Reference templates[edit]

Hi. I recommend to use reference templates when they are available, as here, to standardize the layout across Wiktionary. --Vahag (talk) 11:34, 7 March 2016 (UTC)

  • Excellent. Thank you. GuitarDudeness (talk) 17:47, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
    • Pokorny too has a template and should preferably use it. It generates a link to the actual page. --Vahag (talk) 06:09, 18 March 2016 (UTC)

Your user page[edit]

What a pity that you do not have one! --kc_kennylau (talk) 15:03, 22 March 2016 (UTC)

PIt. *-faks[edit]

You wrote, on an edit comment:

Should this declension be as adjective noun (since acc. *fakem, not *faks)? Can it also be as substantive noun, as *-kaps?

What is your opinion? --kc_kennylau (talk) 15:05, 22 March 2016 (UTC)

@kc kennylau: My opinion is, hoping for constancy, that as it seems the kind of *-kaps, it should inflect similarly, as opposed to the dissonance I see between *-faks (substantive noun?, since no gender is given, with acc. *-fakem, pl. *-fakes) and *-kaps (substantive noun with acc. *-kaps, pl. *-kapā). What does De Vann have? GuitarDudeness (talk) 15:23, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
DV doesn't really say anything on *-faks. I made it a noun because that's what it creates. --kc_kennylau (talk) 15:56, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
Very well. But did you see the incoherence I indicated? Sihler notes agent nouns and action nouns made with *-s- on root. Thus we could suppose this class originally substantive, later used adjectively(?) We seem to have substantive forceps, manceps, municeps, artifex (later adjective), aurifex, opifex etc., while others share adjective property. In the end, if you write those articles by your hand, you can take *-kaps as norm, I say. But where do you get that substantive noun inflection (i.e. acc. *-kaps por *-kapem, pl. *-kapā pro *-kapes)? GuitarDudeness (talk) 16:11, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
Non exstat *-kaps. Pēnsō ut *-kaputis significās. Sequuntur dēclīnātiōnēs verbōrum dērīvātōrum eīs. --kc_kennylau (talk) 16:22, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
I do not refer to -ceps/ -cipitis. Again I say, if *-faks and *-kaps form substantive nouns, why does one decline as acc. *-facem/ pl. *-faces and the other as acc. *-kaps/ pl. *-kapā? GuitarDudeness (talk) 16:30, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
Quia errāvī. Correxī. --kc_kennylau (talk) 17:23, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
Great, that was what I was saying. I adapted the article of *faks to *kaps, which, as I said, we can use as norm for these constructions. It would be good if someone could certify these being agent nouns built with *-s- . Then we could add that to the etymology. GuitarDudeness (talk) 17:36, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
What do you mean "agent nouns built with *-s-"? --kc_kennylau (talk) 18:25, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
I mean the kind of PIE. *dyḗws, *h₃rḗǵs et cetera, which are agent nouns built with *-s- to the root. GuitarDudeness (talk) 18:41, 22 March 2016 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── You mean certify that it is *-faks not *fak? --kc_kennylau (talk) 23:47, 22 March 2016 (UTC)

No. I mean that it would be good if we can confirm the kind of *-fak-s (factor, doer), agent noun, being formed with *-s- added to root *fak- (do), as, e.g., *h₃rḗǵ-s (ruler) is to root *h₃reǵ- (rule). GuitarDudeness (talk) 00:23, 23 March 2016 (UTC)

The strange way we do PIE descendants[edit]

Hey, thanks for your many recent PIE additions. They are very well thought out and formatted! I'd just like to mention a formatting oddity whereby we normally omit the "Proto-" in "Proto-Italic", "Proto-Hellenic", etc. I think this is because it just gets very dense and redundant very quickly. Just thought I'd mention! :)JohnC5 20:38, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

Actually it started off that way because the subdivisions were language families at first, and Proto-language terms were included only later. —CodeCat 20:41, 26 May 2016 (UTC)
Aha, that makes sense. Thanks! —JohnC5 20:44, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

I noticed this exchange and though I'd mention that, while we often reference Pokorny out of deference, his research is now considered fairly inaccurate and overly inclusionist. —JohnC5 04:10, 11 February 2017 (UTC)

Thank you, JohnC5. Which are the most up to date sources? And those roots, *ḱley- and *ḱlew-, so apparently straightforward from *ḱel-, as many other roots of this kind of progression (and here "accepted"), are thus independent? What do hodiern sources say? GuitarDudeness (talk) 13:20, 11 February 2017 (UTC)

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pusus[edit]

Why in etymology "See putus"? Sobreira ►〓 (parlez) 10:23, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

rs > r[edit]

This change is not in doubt, it's known as Szemerényi's law. What is in doubt, however, is whether this change occurred in the history of the noun *bʰōr. The noun could have been coined after the change took place, after all, and then a form such as *bʰors never existed. —CodeCat 14:45, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

Agree. But I understand that even bigger supposition to be in the meaning of "**". Perhaps instead of from earlier we should write for. -GuitarDudeness (talk) 14:51, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
I don't think there's a point. What does it add? —CodeCat 15:12, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
Reason to the these devious forms. -GuitarDudeness (talk) 15:16, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
But they're not deviant, they're perfectly regular. All PIE nouns with stems in -r are missing the final -s. —CodeCat 15:23, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
That, after some corruption of nom. marker *-s. To have *-s would be obvious. Not having it and even worse with lengthening of the stem vowel is not obvious (devious) and causes whomever to ask "how?". Thus the answer on Etymology. -GuitarDudeness (talk) 15:33, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
Someone who knows a bit of PIE grammar will know this. We don't have to explain the grammar of every language in detail. —CodeCat 15:56, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
But it bothers you so to have this very brief clarification? -GuitarDudeness (talk) 15:58, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
It would bother me to have it on every single PIE entry which shows the effects of Szemerényi's law. And of course if it's on one entry, people are going to add it to others. So it's better to not have it on any. —CodeCat 16:05, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
I am sorry to know that. We could indicate Szemerényi's law then in the least (albeit not my preference). The English Wiktionary is, mea sententia, outstanding in its information and honor to etymology. I do not understand the insistence in obscurity by avoiding such brief explanation. But in the end the word seems to be yours... -GuitarDudeness (talk) 16:14, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
The problem I have is that it's not etymology. Yes, at some point in the history of PIE, -rs became -r. However, the law continued to be productive synchronically, so that any new nouns ending in -r lost their -s automatically, without application of Szemerényi's law but purely by analogy with existing nouns ending in -r. We know this because, it appears, -s was restored in the genitive forms of proterokinetic nouns. We have -mén-s rather than -mḗn as the genitive of neuter men-stems. So by late PIE it was no longer a sound change but merely a rule that any noun ending in -r must have no -s in the nominative and the preceding vowel is lengthened. The long vowel part of the rule was even extended to nouns ending in consonants that weren't affected by Szemerényi's law originally, e.g. *dyḗws, *pṓds. These nouns kept their -s, however. —CodeCat 16:21, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
Thank you for the explanation (no irony). As you will. -GuitarDudeness (talk) 16:28, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

Latin conjugation tables[edit]

Since you seem interested in fixing these, I've a got a few forms for you:

--Barytonesis (talk) 11:46, 3 August 2017 (UTC)

This I gather:
  • Maereo: "maerui" seems to be attested and has passive impersonal use.
  • Curro: may take acc. thus has passive forms also has passive impersonal use.
  • Concurro: has passive impersonal use.
  • Faveo: has passive impersonal use.
  • Pugno: may take acc. thus has passive forms also has passive impersonal use.
  • Pecco: may take acc. thus has passive forms.
  • Consto: does not seem to have passive forms.
  • Pudeo: is personal and impersonal with "puduit" or "puditum est" also has passive forms.
  • Taedet: is impersonal and with "taeduit" or "taesum est" also later had personal forms.
  • Piget: is impersonal and with "piguit" or "pigitum est" also later had personal forms.
  • Misereo (coll. misereor): is personal and impersonal.
  • Clango: rare use with no attested perfect forms.
  • Consurgo: has passive impersonal use.
  • Concumbo: is intransitive and does not seem to have passive forms.
  • Inheredito: has rare use but is transitive thus should have passive forms.
  • Praegestio: has rare use but seems transitive thus should have passive forms, some give it no perfect forms.
  • Narro: seems normal.
  • Perdo: is normal but classical times supplied its passive forms with pereo. Passive forms appear more after that.
  • Vendo: is normal but classical times supplied its passive forms with veneo. Passive forms appear more after that.
- GuitarDudeness (talk) 00:57, 4 August 2017 (UTC)