User talk:Tom 144

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Again, welcome! --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 23:28, 12 December 2017 (UTC)


Does it mean message or sea? DTLHS (talk) 01:21, 6 January 2018 (UTC)

@DTLHS It means sea. Why did I make a mistake or something? I have trouble viewing the characters. --Tom 144 (talk) 01:25, 6 January 2018 (UTC)
@DTLHS 𒄩𒇻𒅗𒀸 this one means message. --Tom 144 (talk) 01:31, 6 January 2018 (UTC)
You wrote the definition as [[message|Sea]]. The second parameter of a link controls what is displayed, while the first parameter is what actually linked to. DTLHS (talk) 01:32, 6 January 2018 (UTC)
Ah, thats because I copied the other page an pasted it so I wouldn't have to rewrite the format all over again. My bad --Tom 144 (talk) 01:34, 6 January 2018 (UTC)

html in entries[edit]

Hello. I think using html markup directly in entries is discouraged, and that the practice is to always work with templates. Just letting you know! --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 20:50, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

@Per utramque cavernam, Good to know. I'm still getting used to the different policy. --Tom 144 (talk) 22:12, 10 January 2018 (UTC)


Hi ! I'm no expert, but aren't Hittite lemmas rendered in cuneiforms ? Leasnam (talk) 21:58, 13 January 2018 (UTC)

@Leasnam, Maybe, I don't know how the policy works here with ancient dead scripts, but I wanted to add the transliteration and the broad transcription because that is how they are usually given in books and dictionaries. Authors rarely ever write in cuneiform. I guessed that if Egyptian could be written in it's transliteration, the why Hittite couldn't. Plus, it's hard to browse though categories when their all written in cuneiform. --Tom 144 (talk) 22:13, 13 January 2018 (UTC)
To me my first thought was: Is Hittite now Serbo-Croatian?
I think it would be the best to use something like Chinese and Japanese: “Romanization of …”, so you should make some templates if you like to have such entries (well now you have to as you have begun to create romanization entries …), and keep the Latin entries short and the transcription-declensions at the cuneiform anyway. If you look into linguistic literature they even romanize Arabic, so what authors do is a bad guide. If you know cuneiform you shouldn’t be hampered by having to use cuneiform for Wiktionary entries; also, cuneiform-written languages demand even more to have the entries in cuneiform because the transcriptions vary so much, whereas by a writing system that has been in use for using the language the lemma form suggests itself. I would be unamused by the way if I had to see Akkadian or Sumerian lemmas in Latin script. We want to do it better than the usual dictionaries. Palaestrator verborum sis loquier 🗣 22:45, 13 January 2018 (UTC)
In this old conversation, Angr (now going by the name of Mahagaja (talkcontribs)) has expressed support for having Romanisation entries of Hittite. You should probably bring this up on the Wiktionary:Beer Parlour again. I don't know anything about Hittite, but I'd support having Romanisation entries too. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 23:23, 13 January 2018 (UTC)
@Palaestrator verborum The only variation I've found is w/u̯ and y/i̯, and apparently we've already chosen the y,w spelling. I don't think that Hittite transliterations are comparable with Arabic romanizations, while Arabic has a fixed orthography and it's written in an alphabet that suits the nature of the language, Hittite was written in an extremely deficient syllabary, they would often use both phonograms an logograms in a single word, and would have multiple orthographies (see 𒀭𒌅𒉿𒀪𒄩𒀸, 𒉿𒀀𒋻). I would prefer if the lemma were in the broad transcription, since it's often the most stable (e.g. yukan accounts for both spellings of 𒄿𒌑𒃷).
@Per utramque cavernam, Thank you! I will. --Tom 144 (talk) 23:47, 13 January 2018 (UTC)
Well and in that linked thread Ivan Štambuk says: “Hittite in particular has several problematic issues and Romanization is not straightforward (e.g. hyphens, Sumerograms, determinatives, combining plene writing as macrons) and each Romanized Hittite word is likely to have several different forms.”
And I dare believe Ivan Štambuk. If Hittite was written in an extremely deficient syllabary, the transcriptions will also be deficient. One cannot compensate for it by comparative linguistics. If you have not found many differences, you should have some suspicions either about the truthfulness of those linguistics or about your capabilities.
Yeah, make those romanization entries with the appropriate templates, I have nothing against it, but the base should be the script that is attested. If multiple versions of the same word are attested, you make some alternative versions, I do not see a problem here. We are in the year 2018 after all. Palaestrator verborum sis loquier 🗣 23:56, 13 January 2018 (UTC)
I've left a comment here. @Palaestrator verborum you are invited to do it too.
@Per utramque cavernam:@Mahagaja:, I would appreciate a lot if you expressed your support. --Tom 144 (talk) 00:54, 14 January 2018 (UTC)


What is the Hittite way of writing Lazpa (Λέσβος)? Is it 𒆷𒊍𒉺? — (((Romanophile))) (contributions) 06:06, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

@Romanophile, yes, it's pretty much the only one way to write it. Although city names take the logographic marker URU, (e.g URUḫattuša), in that case it would have been 𒌷𒆷𒊍𒉺. Another thing is that wood related meanings take the logogram GIŠ, but I doubt this is the case since it's real stem is almost always tāru-. --Tom 144 (𒄩𒇻𒅗𒀸) 16:22, 20 January 2018 (UTC)


Tom, I appreciate you taking a new interest in English PIE entries, but you need to add sources to your reconstructions, regardless of how well accepted they are: *ǵʰésr̥, *-ih₂, *ǵénh₁trih₂, *déywih₂, *-tr̥, *-ótr̥, *h₁ítr̥, *h₁sónts. @Rua, JohnC5, Tropylium --Victar (talk) 02:07, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

@Victar: Do I need to state the page number? Not all reference templates have a page parameter. --Tom 144 (𒄩𒇻𒅗𒀸) 02:24, 5 February 2018 (UTC)
I'd be happy to fix any reference templates that lack a page param -- all should have them. --Victar (talk) 02:26, 5 February 2018 (UTC)
Is there a general guide for adding page parameters? Most Uralic reference templates that I've added so far are pretty much just plaintext. --Tropylium (talk) 08:10, 5 February 2018 (UTC)
I notice page you cited in Fortson 1st Ed. does not support your reconstruction of *-tr̥. Also, is *-ótr̥ meant to be for the Hittite -atar suffix? —*i̯óh₁nC[5] 08:21, 5 February 2018 (UTC)
@JohnC5: The page might be 126 in pdf, it's the point is the 6.32. And yes, *-ótr̥ is for intended for -ātar with a lenited "t" due to the "ó". --Tom 144 (𒄩𒇻𒅗𒀸) 13:27, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

Transliteration and transcription modules for Hittite[edit]

Hey Tom, I was thinking about making a transliteration and transcription module for Hittite. Do you think this would be good idea? To do it correctly, we'd need to implement some pretty elaborate algorithms, probably using user generated transliterations for feed broad transcription in the case Akkadograms and Sumerograms. Do you think this would be feasible? —*i̯óh₁n̥C[5] 05:23, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

@JohnC5: This would be great. However, I guess making the module distinguish between Sumerograms, Akkadograms and syllabic script, since they tend to use the same signs (e.g. ḪI.A, DINGIR) . Although I doubt this would be too troublesome, in worst case scenario we would have to add it manually as always. Anyway I think that it can be done. We should probably base ourselves on the Hittite font list. It seems to me that it's complete. Tom 144 (𒄩𒇻𒅗𒀸) 03:01, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
Yeah, the idea would be to assume Hittite, then Sumerogram, then Akkadogram, based on the sign inventory. That's why sometimes you'd have to manually feed in the narrow transcription for it to create the broad transcription. Would you be interested in helping me make a sign list? —*i̯óh₁n̥C[5] 19:43, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
@JohnC5: Definitely. You'll just need to instruct me on what to do. --Tom 144 (𒄩𒇻𒅗𒀸) 22:20, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
So, I've created Module:hit-translit. For the signs in the pdf from the Hitttie font at [1], add each one to the table with the Unicode sign as the key, the Hittite values first, the Sumerograms in all caps second, and the Akkadograms (in you can find any) in all caps third. Of course, the data in Module:typing-aids/data/hit should be helpful for this. Do you know where we can find the Akkadograms used in Hittite?
I'll write some logic to help it decide based on adjacent characters which value to choose. This will be complicated, but it should be fun! —*i̯óh₁n̥C[5] 23:54, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
Also, if you find errors in Module:typing-aids/data/hit, please correct them. For instance, I think 𒁁 for "be" is wrong, and should be 𒁉, if the pdf is correct. Instead, 𒁁 should be "pì" and "pè". —*i̯óh₁n̥C[5] 00:01, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

You shouldn't be using sandboxes in the mainspace[edit]

It is against Wiktionary policy. —*i̯óh₁n̥C[5] 04:13, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

@JohnC5: Ok, I'll change them. I was using the sandboxes temporarily as I updated the declension tables.--Tom 144 (𒄩𒇻𒅗𒀸) 17:07, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

On the categorization of Hittite transliterations[edit]

Hey, first of all thanks for your work on Hittite! It's a bit of a neglected area here on Wiktionary but you seem to be doing great. Anyway, I was looking at some of the transliterations, e.g. LUGAL-uš, and was wondering what was causing {{hit-tr}} and {{hit-broad-tr}} to not categorize the entries as non-lemma forms (as kawaii and hraiwadubo are for example)? I assume the relevant code ought to be somewhere in Module:headword, but I'm not really sure and I'm weary of editing such modules, since they're so integral to the function of so many entries and I am quite a rookie module editor. — Mnemosientje (t · c) 19:58, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

Well, I don't really know how to edit modules, so I'm afraid I can't help you with that. A band-aid solution could be just to add the missing category to the templates {{hit-tr}} and {{hit-broad-tr}}. Anyway, the category transliterations is contained in non-lemma forms, so all pages belonging to it will be found there anyway. –Tom 144 (𒄩𒇻𒅗𒀸) 23:58, 12 December 2018 (UTC)


Tom, you should join the en.Wikt Discord Server. --{{victar|talk}} 18:09, 29 December 2018 (UTC)

@Victar: Thanks! — Tom 144 (𒄩𒇻𒅗𒀸) 21:38, 29 December 2018 (UTC)

Sourcing PIE entries[edit]

Hey Tom, you only sourced one derived form in this entry. Can you please source the reconstruction itself and and many of the derived forms as you can? We're trying to maintain a high standard for PIE entries. Thanks. --{{victar|talk}} 03:06, 3 January 2019 (UTC)

Nulling {{desc}}[edit]

Hey Tom, is there some reason you nulled out {{desc}} in this edit? --{{victar|talk}} 19:46, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

@Victar, Just because the Anatolian reflex could either be *Hárǵis or *Hr̥ǵís, so I just nulled it so the “[Term?]” message wouldnt be displayed. But if I had to guess, I would reconstruct *Hr̥ǵís, because I have seen that accentuation generalized in other anatolian i-stems. — Tom 144 (𒄩𒇻𒅗𒀸) 21:00, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
I recommend you put both if you're unsure, and if that makes you uncomfortable, leave it un-nulled for the future. --{{victar|talk}} 21:08, 19 February 2019 (UTC)