User talk:Tharthan

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Hello. Welcome to my talk page. If there is something that you wish to discuss, please feel free to do so. However, I ask that you remain civil and cordial if you can. I can sometimes be a little hotheaded, but please don't let that get to you.

cancel, travel[edit]

Hi, I reverted your most recent edits as too controversial to be done without any prior discussion. What evidence do you have? I recommend a WT:TR thread as the most appropriate forum to discuss this. Mglovesfun (talk) 18:11, 14 June 2012 (UTC)


First off, I did not see your comments before I reverted twice. Second, I did not mean my sign-off message as being offensive. Third, while it's fine to mark them differently than I had, I hardly believe my edits to be worthy of a block.

You have (essentially) blocked constructive edits from my account. I would appreciate if my edits could be changed to the way -sche marked them. Tharthan (talk) 19:08, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

The whole point of discussion is waiting for someone's comments before continuing to edit war. If your message was not meant to be offensive, then I don't understand why you would be bringing up something so unrelated (and G-d is a touchy subject). Finally, I think that there is a weak case against you as far as POV-pushing goes, but the block was justified by your edit warring and attacking attitude (essentially calling Ruakh's edits vandalism). --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 19:23, 14 August 2012 (UTC)


None of your new German entries have headwords. See the format of existing German nouns and verbs for help, or preferably, read Wiktionary:About German. SemperBlotto (talk) 15:49, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Section editing.[edit]

If you click the 'edit' link next to a section header, you'll end up with a more-useful edit summary that links to the specific section you're editing. This is especially useful in cases like your recent comment at Wiktionary:Tea room: the whole purpose of your comment was to try to get people to see and reply to your discussion, but because you didn't use section-editing, your edit summary didn't contain a link to the discussion, making it needlessly difficult for people to do so. —RuakhTALK 07:39, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. I was unaware of that. Tharthan (talk) 11:07, 2 October 2013 (UTC)


I questioned your etymology of ‎Tauber in Wiktionary:Etymology scriptorium#Tauber, your input over there would be appreciated. -- 01:36, 25 October 2013 (UTC)


Who exactly pronounces lad as /lʌd/? It's certainly not the majority of New England. Is it a Rhode Island thing? Is it a Virginia thing? Or is it just you? --WikiTiki89 20:22, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

After reviewing the page, I have come to the conclusion that there is a slight mislabelling to that audio file. It would be more accurate to say that it is an unstressed pronunciation. I do hear it around my area, but I'm not particularly conserved with its timeless "archiving" on Wiktionary or anything like that. In fact, I'd like the pronunciation to die off personally; only having recorded it for accuracy purposes. I'd take no issue if you just listed /lʌd/ as an unstressed dialectal pronunciation and removed my audio file entirely. Tharthan (talk) 22:31, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
Ok. Do you think it would be wrong to transcribe it as /ləd/? Also, can you give me an example sentence in which you would pronounce it that way? --WikiTiki89 22:34, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
Nope, /ləd/ actually seems more accurate per situatio.

"He's a tough young lad /læd/ with strong ambitions, but /bət/ lads /ləds/ are /ɚ/ lads /ləds/, and /n̩/ there's /ðɛɚz/ only so much he /i:/ can /kn̩/ do." Tharthan (talk) 22:46, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

Interesting. Did you mean /lədz/? --WikiTiki89 22:53, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
Yes. Tharthan (talk) 00:24, 4 February 2014 (UTC)


Regarding the reversion of the changes I made, the definition specifically mentions an "ancestor language". This agrees with the term as used in historical linguistics. A cognate specifically refers to something related through ancestry, not borrowing. Old Norse is not an ancestor language to English, just one that was a source of many borrowings. Thus, skirt—though related to shirt—is not cognate with it. —Leftmostcat (talk) 05:30, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

You seem to have an incorrect understanding of etymology. The two terms are cognate because they both are derived from the same Proto-Germanic etymon. This is common knowledge amongst even many non-linguists. Tharthan (talk) 11:18, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
I'm well aware of the related etymologies, but linguistic usage of cognate refers specifically to words which have a direct ancestral link. Thus, Old Norse skyrta is cognate with shirt (and so, it would seem, is the Icelandic), but skirt is a borrowing. The following definition from Lyle Campbell's Historical Linguistics is illustrative:
Cognate: a word (or morpheme) which is related to a word (morpheme) in sister languages by reason of these forms having been inherited by these sister languages from a common word (morpheme) of the proto-language from which the sister languages descend.
Note that skirt does not fit this definition. English does not inherit it from Proto-Germanic but borrows it from Old Norse. As a side note, your statement that I "seem to have an incorrect understanding of etymology" comes across as confrontational. Though I'm certain this isn't what you meant, it may be worth keeping in mind. —Leftmostcat (talk) 21:08, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
If one considers the possibility of the word being borrowed into late Old English from Old Norse (which is, as I'm sure you can concede, at least possible), then perhaps the word could have been conflated with northern dialectal forms of the word "shirt" (for instance, the dialects that were then spoken in Northumbria and Scotland, which are known to have often reverted /ʃ/ to /sk/) In that case, the word would be at least partially derived from Old English scyrte, which is inherited from Proto-Germanic *skurtijǭ, and would thus be cognate to Modern English shirt by the definition you gave.
And my apologies for my questionable wording of that sentence; 'Twas not my intention to seem hostile.
On a side note, the definition of the word cognate that you presented seems to be implying that doublets, etymological twins and loanwords of any kind cannot be cognate to any other words within that language, even if the word that they were derived from would. That seems quite far-fetched to my ears. I'm relatively certain that the word "cognate" isn't so starkly restrained that it would exclude doublets. Tharthan (talk) 22:43, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

Revert at fey[edit]

I'm not sure if your edit comment was completely correct: a lot of the "magical, otherworldy" senses could have developed from the "fated to die" meaning- the semantic change isn't that great. Either way, you don't address that kind of issue by deleting huge chunks of content.

If you think they're separate, then change the current etymology to Etymology 1, and create another Etymology 2 for the other meaning. Distribute the content between the two etymologies, duplicating any headers so that splitting a section won't leave one half without a header. Change level 3 headers (with "===") to level 4 headers (with "===="), etc. so that they all nest under the etymology sections. Anything such as pronunciation that's common to both can be moved ahead of the first etymology section.

See WT:ELE for more details.

Thanks! Chuck Entz (talk) 22:30, 29 June 2014 (UTC)


Look at the German entry for the German word. The pronunciation is not the "German" one you claim. Equinox 20:38, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

Correct, hence why it says "imitating the German". If you would like to add the literal German pronunciation to that list, that's fine. I've already placed three other pronunciations. /ˈjuːbə/ or /ˈɪuːbə/ seem to be the most common ones that I have heard, but I have indeed heard /ˈyːbə/ as well. I've never heard a literal /ˈyːbɐ/ or /ˈʏbɐ/ though. Tharthan (talk) 21:58, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
Where have you heard this? --WikiTiki89 23:29, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
On the Web, mostly. I've heard /ˈɪuːbə/ in public though. It's sort of like the deal with "pwn" I think. There are several pronunciations due to it being primarily a "word of the web" in English. Tharthan (talk) 00:21, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
You mean in online videos? I hear it more often in person than online and I have only heard /uːbɚ/. --WikiTiki89 00:25, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
I don't hear it offline much, but when I do, it's usually /ˈjuːbə/ (or /ˈɪuːbə/). I've heard /uːbɚ/ as well, but more so years ago, in the early 2000s. I dunno. Like I said, I've personally never heard people pronounce "pwn" as /piˈoʊn/ or /pɔːn/, but I don't doubt that people do. Tharthan (talk) 00:40, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
I always hear "pwn" as /poʊn/. I also don't necessarily think that /ˈjuːbə/ is due to mimicking German. It could more easily be just reading the word as it is spelled. --WikiTiki89 00:48, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
I have only really heard /pwoʊn/ or /poʊn/, though I've heard some of the others on perhaps a few occasions.

Maybe, or maybe not. My dialect doesn't read "u" as /ju/ in those ambiguous words. It tends to read it as /u/ in those words. And the people I am referring to tend to speak rhotically. Plus, that still doesn't explain /ˈɪuːbə/ Tharthan (talk) 01:29, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

I don't think that how you read u- has anything to do with dialect. As for /ˈɪuːbə/, can you link me to a video or something that has this pronunciation? --WikiTiki89 01:33, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
My dialect has a sort of /ɪu/-/u/ distinction in words. "u" is /u/, "ue" and "ew" are /ɪu/. /ju/ is neither of those. The word isn't spelt u-ber, either, so they couldn't be looking at it like that. And, like I said, their speech is rhotic. Hence why I'm pretty sure they're imitating the German when they say it that way. Tharthan (talk) 01:43, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
How would you pronounce use? When I say /juː/, I am referring to whatever pronunciation you have for the u in use. --WikiTiki89 01:54, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
I would pronounce "use" with /juː/, but not (say) "ube" if that were a word. It's hard to explain, it's like... "avenue" is /ævɛnɪu/, not /ævɛnu/ or /ævɛnju/. I guess words that are already particularly well established with /ju/ would use /ju/, but not words that are not. That's probably the best way I can explain it. Tharthan (talk) 02:01, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
How sure are you that you don't also pronounce noon as /nɪun/? --WikiTiki89 02:04, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
100%. No question. I say /nu:n/. But I pronounce "new" /nɪu/. Tharthan (talk) 02:07, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
Ok, because I pronounce both with a /ɪu/-like sound. The other thing is that this sound in your dialect only exists after coronal consonants, so it is hard to say how it can be used at the beginning of uber. --WikiTiki89 02:08, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

re: Somewhat random, but...[edit]

My mind keeps reading your name as "Colonel MacKenzie", which makes me always read your statements in my head with the voice of an military veteran. I just wanted to mention this, because my mind has been doing this for years. Tharthan (talk) 21:36, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

I am indeed a veteran, but USN not army. If it helps at all; when you see my name try thinking of "O'Connel" or even better..."Oh! Connel!" Hope this helps. --Connel MacKenzie (talk) 22:33, 30 September 2014 (UTC)


Hello. Most of the US pronounces "aunt" as IPA(key): [ɛənt] based upon æ-tensing occurring universally before an alveolar nasal. I gave the narrower transcription to demonstrate more accurately how Americans actually pronounce the word, aligning also with audio example. 15:14, 9 November 2014 (UTC)
Such tensing does not occur universally across the country. Furthermore, I have absolute naught concern for how the Midwest (read: place that I do not care about) and the West coast (read: place that I care about even less) pronounce things. The Midwest and West coast, particularly the latter, are the most linguistically unconservative dialects in the country, and (myself being a speaker of the exact opposite type of dialect, one of the most linguistically conservative dialects in the country) I hold nothing but scorn and loathing for those over-highlighted in the media, over-spoken in society and over-hyped dialectal dregs.
Ehem... pardon my rambling. It's just that I have a bitter hatred of those particular dialects (save New York's, Minnesota's and a small few others' subdialects). The West Coast's dialect in particular reminds me of the wretched Cockney dialect of England, which over the past half decade has been befouling the idiolects of more-or-less every single youngster in the whole of the British Isles (and even partially so in Australia amongst the very young males). Utterly detestable, and should have their media presences completely taken away from them. Tharthan (talk) 02:23, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
[Urrgh..nrghh..aaghrrh..] Sorry, I'm from the Los Angeles area (my mom was from Iowa), and I was forgetting to speak one of your approved dialects for a second... Seriously, though, to my West Coast ears, IPA(key): [ɛənt] sounds somewhat rural / Southern-influenced, not standard at all. Chuck Entz (talk) 04:29, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
Yeah, sorry about the rage rant above. I don't actually have a problem with people speaking any of those dialects (dialects exist for a reason, and people should be proud of who they are and where they come from, ideally), I just wish that they would stop engaging in dialectal creep like they have been. Heck, when I first joined Wiktionary years ago, there was a clearly tipped scale (systematic bias?) towards coverage of West Coast & Midwestern terms and pronunciations, with little if any on New England pronunciation or terminology (the latter had a good several entries, but the former basically had nothing at all).
From what I am aware, the only standard pronunciations of aunt are /ɑ(ː)nt/, which is the standard in the Received Pronunciation of the UK; in Australia; in New England and Virginia, as well as sporadically elsewhere in the United States, and /ænt/, which is the standard in the northern UK; in Canada; and in much of the United States save New England and Virginia and the occasional sporadic occurrence.
So I have absolutely no clue as to what the IP is on about. Tharthan (talk) 05:13, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Bad audio files[edit]

When you run across a bad audio file added by DerbethBot (e.g. at whilst), removing it doesn't do much good, since DerbethBot will just add it again (and again, and again, and again...). To really get rid of it, you have to go to Commons and go through the process to get rid of it there. Chuck Entz (talk) 23:08, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

Ah, I see. Thanks for the heads-up. Tharthan (talk) 23:37, 8 February 2015 (UTC)


Not something I'd usually make a fuss about, and you might not care, but since your page says you are a linguistic purist, and since rather few people still use "whom(ever)" at all: here [1] you should have said "whoever", because "be/is" is a copula, i.e. subject and complement, not subject and object. "It is he [not him] who did it." Equinox 01:01, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

Typo on my part. Thanks for the correction. Tharthan (talk) 01:03, 17 February 2015 (UTC)