User talk:Connel MacKenzie

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I don't archive my page to make it easier for you to post questions here. I archive my page when I get too many requests(/complaints) for me to do so. The majority of conversations on this page (and in my archives) belong on WT:VIP, WT:BP, WT:ID, WT:GP, WT:TR, WT:RFD, WT:RFC or WT:RFV. Please consider redirecting your question, from me personally, to the general discussion pages (even if you think I'm the only one likely to reply there.)

Lua error in Module:parameters at line 290: Parameter 1 should be a valid language code; the value "User talk:Connel MacKenzie/archive" is not valid. See WT:LOL. terms starting with “Connel MacKenzie”
Older page history: history, 2006, 2007, 2008
Vandalism archive: /vandalism
Edit index

I have transcluded the following from the new users log: ‎

  1. 22:00, 1 January 2008 EizneKcaM lennoC (Talk | contribs) created account for User:HsibolG (Talk | contribs)
  2. 22:00, 1 January 2008 EizneKcaM lennoC (Talk | contribs) created account for User:OttolB repmeS (Talk | contribs)
  3. 21:59, 1 January 2008 EizneKcaM lennoC (Talk | contribs) created account for User:NnamlluD treboR (Talk | contribs)
  4. 21:59, 1 January 2008 EizneKcaM lennoC (Talk | contribs) New user

EizneKcaM lennoC is attempting to impersonate you, NnamlluD treboR is attempting to impersonate Robert Ullmann, and I think you can figure out the rest by turning them the right way. (The impersonators' user names are backwards.) --MacReporter 02:59, 2 January 2008 (UTC)Reply

SIGH. I imagine I am partly to blame, for User talk:Image egamI.  :-(   Thanks for the heads-up. --Connel MacKenzie 03:26, 2 January 2008 (UTC)Reply

Listing WT:PMT at the bottom of WT:CP


As per your suggestion on Beer parlour, I would surely add the Project Multilingual Translations to the listing of WT:CP. Thanks for your consideration and suggestions for newly proposed mega-project.

Project Multilingual Translations is only in the stage of being framed; but is a big goal to be achieved. So, firstly we would give enough time to frame all things correctly for everything expected to function in right manner and then only set out with work. kindly do give additional suggestions at Project Multilingual Translations discussions page.

Also, kindly convey some deserving names for PMT group membership from various languages.

Shreehari 08:55, 2 January 2008 (UTC)Reply

As with any wiki-project, the volunteers for PMT must volunteer themselves. It would not be an act of kindness to suggest names of specific individuals, who very probably are already over-committed themselves! On the group membership page, you may have inadvertently chosen the wording "control language" when you really mean "language proficiency?" That subtle difference isn't so subtle in that context. --Connel MacKenzie 14:05, 2 January 2008 (UTC)Reply

work to be done


Hi. If you like, I'll go through these tomorrow. User:Newnoise/Stuff Probably delete a much higher %age than he (WF?) states. - Algrif 18:23, 4 January 2008 (UTC)Reply

Thanks. I'm busy now, too. Maybe strikeout the ones kept that have been completely rewritten. --Connel MacKenzie 19:04, 4 January 2008 (UTC)Reply



Can you look at his recent edits and advise him, please? I'm not sure what would be the best way to phrase it, and I have to sign off now anyway. Thanks. - Algrif 19:14, 7 January 2008 (UTC)Reply

Funny, I was thinking the same thing - punt. That is, punt and hope that someone other than myself, could handle it more gracefully. We have a long standing prohibition on "word histories" (particularly in etymology sections) that covers the style of the approach. But there are two problems: 1) what s/he is entering clearly isn't a copyvio, 2) what s/he is entering does belong in those entries as ===Usage notes=== (reworded, chopped WAY down.)
I dunno. Suggest floating ideas on "Talk:" pages first, to ask what sections they belong in and/or help rewording? Diplomacy really isn't my strong suit. --Connel MacKenzie 19:26, 7 January 2008 (UTC)Reply

reordering definitions


So what is the etymological objection to reordering the two definitions for husbandry? The conservation-of-resources one seems to be broader and encompasses the other one. Fair enough that m-w and aren't enough justification for wiktionary, but what in the world is "etymological order" and how do you determine that those two definitions are in it now? Eaefremov 23:22, 8 January 2008 (UTC)Reply

The figurative extension of the original literal meaning encompasses the original? I disagree. But your assertion that Wiktionary should be made to comply with (in the edit summary) is suggestive of a larger conceptual error. While Wikipedia is only a tertiary source, Wiktionary cannot be and is not. --Connel MacKenzie 07:23, 9 January 2008 (UTC)Reply

Apparent cheatbot error


As recently as Dec 07 Cheatbot declared a past form to be a present participle. (arced was the one.) I have so far found three instances of this error. I hope we can come up with ways of standardizing more of our entries so that it easier to get bots to behave. DCDuring 14:25, 9 January 2008 (UTC)Reply

Wow, that is a very strange bug. Thank you for pointing it out. And timely, too, since I was preparing to upload the batch from 1/2/2008. I'll add another check to ensure that particular problem doesn't resurface, then regenerate the upload. --Connel MacKenzie 16:05, 9 January 2008 (UTC)Reply
I looked at a few of the errors. Another aspect is that 3rd p singular entries were missed, a pres. participles were labelled as 3rd p singulars. I'm really glad it was timely. I caught about 8 errors through the middle of the b's so fewer than 100 in total probably for English. DCDuring 16:27, 9 January 2008 (UTC)Reply
I hope the logs at the bottom of the userpage User:TheCheatBot are helpful, in finding them. I am inclined to think this is a relatively recent bug, as the inflection template has changed so very much, over the years. --Connel MacKenzie 16:50, 9 January 2008 (UTC)Reply
It may be connected with cases where en-verb with four explicit verb inflections. DCDuring 17:49, 9 January 2008 (UTC)Reply
Or maybe just the number of separator bars. verge has no entry after last sep bar and had the problem. DCDuring 18:09, 9 January 2008 (UTC)Reply
Thanks again - tracking a problem down is typically the hard part. Hopefully I'll remember to correct this and regenerate, before uploading any of these. (This is on the longer list of things I want to rewrite for a different platform, to get more up-to-date checks in place, but I guess that is neither here nor there. Traversing the entire XML dump is still the first pass, either way.) --Connel MacKenzie 05:59, 13 January 2008 (UTC)Reply



Is was going through to check that there were no references to the shortcuts, as oppposed to to the pages they linked. But it really wasn't worth it. Thanks a lot. Conrad.Irwin 20:53, 9 January 2008 (UTC)Reply

cast not a clout


Hi. Some advice please. Having seen your modifications to this proverb; am I to understand that we no longer use/need the "context" tag? - Algrif 20:09, 10 January 2008 (UTC)Reply

It is still sometimes used for very rare context tags that don't have their own "wrappers" yet. When I find such templates, I try to clean them up (so they match, e.g. {{slang}}) and update the AutoFormat tables about them. "Context" itself is getting phased out gradually. There were a few discussions about it on WT:GP in 2007... --Connel MacKenzie 20:12, 10 January 2008 (UTC)Reply
While you're here though...should I have sent that to RFV? Where is that phrase from? [1] gives no clues. --Connel MacKenzie 20:14, 10 January 2008 (UTC)Reply
The proverb entry might need to be modified. [2] My mum always used it as per my entry. But the saying is quite old, so perhaps it should be "ne'er". - Algrif 14:18, 11 January 2008 (UTC)Reply
(Later edit) This [3] seems to seal it for "ne'er cast a clout.." although alternatives do show up (including my entry) they are definitely in the minority. - Algrif 15:45, 11 January 2008 (UTC)Reply
Weird that says it is used (only?) in British English. Well, I've never heard it here, so a {{UK}} tag seems reasonable, based on their say-so. Moving it to "Ne'er ..." seems reasonable. --Connel MacKenzie 16:13, 11 January 2008 (UTC)Reply

Japanese demonstratives


Hey, I don't remember whether you knew Japanese or not; but I finally made a table of the Japanese demonstratives (just check out the page kono or sono). However, demonstratives aren't accepted as headers; how should I categorise it then? --BiT 08:14, 11 January 2008 (UTC)Reply

I'm sorry, but my efforts to investigate this have proved fruitless. Perhaps User:EncycloPetey could give better guidance? WT:AJ does not yet mention them; its talk page is another good place to ask. --Connel MacKenzie 21:23, 12 January 2008 (UTC)Reply
Hm too bad, thanks for the effort though. :) Why can't they just be categorized as "demonstratives" though? That's what they bloody are! --BiT 12:40, 13 January 2008 (UTC)Reply
I'm sorry I misread your question! Yes, Category:Japanese demonstratives is fine - I thought you were asking about the heading. --Connel MacKenzie 18:44, 13 January 2008 (UTC)Reply
Yea both actually, why can't you make the header be "demonstrative" (like this ===Demonstrative===)? --BiT 20:29, 13 January 2008 (UTC)Reply

Ticket "2008011210003289"


Ticket created for verification purposes, between the emails and this, hopefully we're set. :)

btw, ever considered archiving your talkpage? o.o It's long! ~Kylu (u|t) 09:08, 12 January 2008 (UTC)Reply

No. Never. No! I mean it! NO! --Connel MacKenzie 09:38, 12 January 2008 (UTC)Reply
And no snarky comments about irc:// either! No! NO! --Connel MacKenzie 05:52, 13 January 2008 (UTC)Reply

Are you founder of Wiktionary?


Thank you for such an interesting project. - 20:33, 12 January 2008 (UTC)Reply

You are welcome. No, I was not aware of "wikis" at all, when this started. User:Brion VIBBER created this wiki. User:Eclecticology was here on day one, with a few others. I am a contributor here, just like you. --Connel MacKenzie 21:16, 12 January 2008 (UTC)Reply



Hi, i just noticed that while you do the Unicodifying and removing the HTML entities, it seems to overlook Ö for Ö. You edited f.e. Ofen and replaced the ß for ß but the Ö stayed (which i have now removed manually). Maybe you can add that to your script. Greets, Mutante 22:46, 13 January 2008 (UTC)Reply

Thanks - but I hope I never do this again! I think I got the Ouml's manually during the first pass, but I'll re-add it now just in case. --Connel MacKenzie 22:48, 13 January 2008 (UTC)Reply
(I made sure these are all case-sensitive - since they are - perhaps that was how it slipped through? AWB bug? Argh.) --Connel MacKenzie 22:49, 13 January 2008 (UTC)Reply



Can you go Visviva's talk page and let this guy know that spetchel passed the criteria for verification since it falls under "Cite, on the article page, usage of the word in permanently recorded media, conveying meaning, in at least three independent instances spanning at least a year" for permanently recorded media with Google Books. --Marmoset Marmalade 16:48, 16 January 2008 (UTC)Reply

Well, I'm not sure that these links do show noun use. Visviva's action was correct, in that the citations themselves never were added to the entry...closing out backlogged RFVs is a painful task that I'm not about to second-guess here.
I think the best way to proceed is to create Citations:spetchel with at least three book citations, then request un-deletion from Visviva, based on the "new" citations given.
--Connel MacKenzie 16:58, 16 January 2008 (UTC)Reply
But do they show "use"? They look like "mention" to me (i.e. in dictionaries, not in ordinary text). SemperBlotto 17:01, 16 January 2008 (UTC)Reply
Further down look like possibilities, so I'm not about to say this can never be entered - I'll only say that Visviva's action looks correct. --Connel MacKenzie 17:04, 16 January 2008 (UTC)Reply
At the time, I didn't realize I had to add citations to the entry. I just knew that under the List of searchable archives for the clause of usage of the word in permanently recorded media, conveying meaning, in at least three independent instances spanning at least a year, Google Books pops up as a source for validation under "How does one verify a sense?". Spetchel appears in 23 separate books as a noun, so it should be suitable, correct? --Marmoset Marmalade 19:47, 16 January 2008 (UTC)Reply
Citations are needed to prove that it actually is a word - we can't/don't use secondary sources directly for a number of reasons, so we look for the term being used. That's the problem identified to begin with, that searching b.g.c. doesn't really help with...the first entire page of results list only (unusable) secondary sources. --Connel MacKenzie 23:48, 16 January 2008 (UTC)Reply
Ah. My misunderstanding then. So I just need to find three sources where the word is used. Now I assume that wikipedia will not be an accepted source? --Marmoset Marmalade 13:51, 18 January 2008 (UTC)Reply
(A username such as "monkey cum" doesn't exactly instill confidence, however.) --Connel MacKenzie 17:10, 16 January 2008 (UTC)Reply
..............ookay. It's not "monkey cum". Great. I didn't really need to think of that. Now my username is going to be tainted by that image. Thanks a lot. --Marmoset Marmalade 19:47, 16 January 2008 (UTC)Reply
Well, um, but, well, ahh, erm. Do tell, what is "marmalade" in a simian context supposed to mean then? Surely I can't be blamed for that association...I'm not that creative. --Connel MacKenzie 23:48, 16 January 2008 (UTC)Reply
They are two of my favorite words. Honestly I wasn't feeling very creative so I typed in the first two words that came to mind. It seemed funny to me at the time (just look at him! He's hilarious!), however, I hadn't drawn that particular conclusion. --Marmoset Marmalade 13:51, 18 January 2008 (UTC)Reply

protected titles


I'd like if we always used max 1 year when adding these. That makes it easier to see when they are added as well. Yes, there are a few that may recur, and will never be valid, but in this way we won't have an ever increasing pile of cruft. It would be good if Special:Protectedtitles remained useful to look at. (e.g. do we really care about spra/nkton, or whether it ever reappears?) Robert Ullmann 18:26, 16 January 2008 (UTC)Reply

Several things:
  1. spra* No, never. It resurfaced after years, last few times it was unprotected (after a year or more.)
  2. We shouldn't be keeping pages, now that we have two other methods of preventing them. This pile of cruft should be steadily decreasing (as should WT:PT.)
  3. Generally, one year sounds good, but it shouldn't be yourself and myself that decide that.
--Connel MacKenzie 18:39, 16 January 2008 (UTC)Reply

Something for you to look at...


News, but also c/p of en.wp script

Made you look! - Amgine 05:02, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

I can't tell how that is able to get invoked. Once running, it is just pulling some random web copy of the ILOVEYOU virus (looks like.) We can probably use parts of it for the thing to auto-download random(Firefox|Opera|Netscape|...) whenever a page is opened in IE. But such ridiculous silliness aside, thanks for the link/explanation. --Connel MacKenzie 06:00, 17 January 2008 (UTC)Reply

Hi again from Polyglot


Hi Connel,

I logged in once more and found I had a new message. It was from you about something that happened in September 2005. I don't even recall the specifics anymore. Anyway, I'm sure you're doing a great job and I wish you all the best for the coming years!


Wow, it seems I caused quite a fuss by trying to do some good uploading my pictures and recordings and then subsequently disappearing from the face of the earth for a while... If I ever upload anything again, I'll do it to commons directly from now on. Recently I picked up a new interest though: It's great fun to go around with a GPS and a camera and try to build a useful map of the world --Polyglot 08:26, 22 January 2008 (UTC)Reply
Whoops, you were asking a question back there, but I was so stunned to see your name, I forgot to answer! Yes, that stuff is loooooong since taken care of. Your stuff was irksome, but not nearly as bad as some of the others. openstreetmap sounds like it might be overlapping one of the similar initiatives from GoogleEarth...but if it is anything like it, it must be fun! (And somehow, a bigger time-sink than en.wiktionary!) --Connel MacKenzie 08:31, 22 January 2008 (UTC)Reply

Nbarth usertalk deleted?


Hi Connel,

I noticed that my user talk page, User talk:Nbarth, was deleted: [4]. I haven't used it afaik (I just noticed a "New messages", which yielded a deleted talk page) and I presume the page had something offensive on it. Could you tell me what happened at my Wikipedia talk page? Thanks!

Nbarth 16:51, 20 January 2008 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for the clarification!
Nbarth 21:10, 20 January 2008 (UTC)Reply



I am sorry for misrepresenting you on the Grease Pit, it was unintentional. Conrad.Irwin 21:32, 20 January 2008 (UTC)Reply



Hi, Connel. I am thinking of merging Wikipedia's deprogramming and exit counseling articles to Deconversion (at Wikipedia, of course - not here! :-)

Then I'm planning - with help from Jossi, Andries and others (I wouldn't do this by myself) - to rework deprogramming and exit counseling and daughter articles of the new deconversion article.

The rationale behind this is the realization that there is no general article on people leaving their faith with the assistance of (or under pressure from) others. There is also a lot of overlap between deprogramming and exit counseling, in terms of models of manipulation (from the 'cult') and methods of talking the person out of their beliefs/membership. The main difference between the two is the degree of force used: a lot in (forcible) deprogramming, none it all in (voluntary) exit counseling.

The reason I'm involving you is that (1) you have a bot that will be triggered if I start doing this and (2) it involves meanings of words, which is a Wiktionary specialty. -- — This unsigned comment was added by Ed Poor (talkcontribs).

blind man's bluff


I think this is another UK-US difference. In UK most folks say buff. I did think how best to tackle these entries before I made them, and one of my options was a syncronised link. What do you think? -- Algrif 19:07, 23 January 2008 (UTC)Reply

Wow, how unexpected. Did I mark "buff" as a mere typo? Trying to use {{sync}} as a subst'd template might be best then. I wonder what buff means in UK English. Over here, you can buff your shoes with a cloth to finish shining them. You could also use buffed (not buff) to describe something very over-inflated (like a body-builder's muscles.) That series of entries could probably use a lot of attention. --Connel MacKenzie 20:10, 23 January 2008 (UTC)Reply
I very much suspect that back in queen Vic's youth, they talked about playing blind man's bluff in UK too. I suspect it is nothing more than a corruption that is now more common than the root. Might have something to do with the way a young child would say the word? I've never used the {{sync}} template before. Would mind doing the honours? and I will receive the learning with gratitude. Ciao -- Algrif 20:28, 23 January 2008 (UTC)Reply
Done. On line one (before ==English==) I added {{subst:synch|blind man's buff|blink man's bluff|subst=subst:}}. Fortunately, the instructions for it are still accurate.  :-)   --Connel MacKenzie 20:42, 23 January 2008 (UTC)Reply

Cardinal numbers cats


Um, Connel these are POS categories; they are (were) all correct. Kindly put them back. Robert Ullmann 22:23, 23 January 2008 (UTC)Reply

Grrrr. I was just going through non-empty {{catred}}s. The categories themselves are marked backwards? --Connel MacKenzie 22:25, 23 January 2008 (UTC)Reply
Note that the WT:POS section is wrong (hence part of the "debated" bit); if you look at the all the other POS cats they DO NOT use the xx: code prefix, the use the language name and the part-of speech. This is left over from the attempt to force "number->numeral" on us, when clearly almost everyone preferred "number".
Look at the rest of the POS cats in WT:POS, which are full policy. Robert Ullmann 22:30, 23 January 2008 (UTC)Reply
Sigh. I didn't even notice "numeral" in those. So, basically anything with {{catred}} on it that pertains to numbers is backwards. Great. Wanna help re-align the categories themselves while I run the bot for the category members? --Connel MacKenzie 22:35, 23 January 2008 (UTC)Reply
be happy to, but it is past sleep time for me tonight ;-(
Also, you aren't using the option to leave other categories in place. (-inplace) Robert Ullmann 22:37, 23 January 2008 (UTC)Reply
Please fix {{cardinal}} et al., when you get to them. --Connel MacKenzie 22:47, 23 January 2008 (UTC)Reply
What a mess. Why can't people get the category naming concept? It has been two years now. (I see, EP created the whole mess last year.) Robert Ullmann 12:03, 24 January 2008 (UTC)Reply
I'm sorry, EP made such a horrendous mess of these POS names and cats last February while trying to force everyone to use "Numeral" instead of the generally preferred "Number" that I can't deal with straightening it out right now. Robert Ullmann 13:14, 24 January 2008 (UTC)Reply

rearrange the deck chairs on the Titanic


No joke. Just trying to make it consistent with w:Rearrange the deck chairs on the Titanic which redirects to here. Evrik 19:37, 24 January 2008 (UTC)Reply

Please note: any mention of S. C. here is guaranteed to receive a hostile response. He has personally, directly been responsible for far too much vandalism here to do an about-face and suddenly start acting as promoters of his spam. The fact that it was redundant makes it silly. The fact that is was more than one sentence makes it a distinct liability. --Connel MacKenzie 12:22, 25 January 2008 (UTC)Reply
Wow. That was a pretty absurd allegation. --Connel MacKenzie 16:37, 28 January 2008 (UTC)Reply

No "Han tu"


Why? — This unsigned comment was added by Cehihin (talkcontribs).

That isn't a valid heading - but could you please be a little more specific? What exact entry? Link please. --Connel MacKenzie 01:35, 27 January 2008 (UTC)Reply



The Wiktionary in turn should refer back to the Wikipedia to cover

Peter Horn 23:36, 28 January 2008 (UTC)Reply

Language Codes


Where can I find some information on the language codes, like 'en', 'sp', etc.? I'd like to find out how to specify my languages correctly for the admin nomination. Thanks. RSvK 01:42, 29 January 2008 (UTC)Reply

Never mind; I found them. Thanks. RSvK 02:13, 29 January 2008 (UTC)Reply
The two-digit codes come from w:ISO 3166-1, (which are actually country codes.) The Wikipedia Babel templates have historically been copied whenever a language is missing. --Connel MacKenzie 02:14, 29 January 2008 (UTC)Reply
Connel, why do you keep confusing this with 3166? The two letter codes for languages are w:ISO 639-1, no relation to 3166 (and, note, predates it by quite a bit), except that a number of countries and languages with the same names happen to have the same code. We do not use ISO 3166 anywhere. Our list is Wiktionary:Index to templates/languages Robert Ullmann 11:38, 29 January 2008 (UTC)Reply
Because 3166 is what has been used consistently for wiki URL names. My bad. --Connel MacKenzie 01:35, 31 January 2008 (UTC)Reply



Anything I can do to make life easier on cleaning up these old things? I hear that history merger is no fun. Did I accidentally create some history that forced that requirement on you or is it necessary anyway? I don't mind doing some info-extraction/cleanup work once in a while, but I don't want to make work for anyone or waste my time. DCDuring TALK 00:58, 31 January 2008 (UTC)Reply

The history merge is only "no fun" when I totally mess it up.  :-)   In theory, anytime you use the content from a transwiki, they should be history-merged. I don't think we've typically been very good about it, so far. But that is one of the main reasons the full history is coming over the wall. --Connel MacKenzie 01:34, 31 January 2008 (UTC)Reply
Would that mean that if all we would get is a badly formatted quote or one WL to a synonym, I may as well just look it up again and allow the transwiki to be speedied without a merger? If there is actually at least a sense line or something a little more substantive, it would seem more worth the extra steps of history merging. Alernatively, is there any template or something that could allow me to select an existing WT entry as target, append all the content of the TW, and merge all the history? I would then finish by editing out the error and duplication manual, leaving a complete trail. DCDuring TALK 02:23, 31 January 2008 (UTC)Reply
Well, there is {{merge}} that should help with that. I haven't done that side of it in a while; you might ask User:Goldenrowley what his preferred method has worked out to be. --Connel MacKenzie 18:02, 31 January 2008 (UTC)Reply
Thanks, will do. DCDuring TALK 18:18, 31 January 2008 (UTC)Reply

melt faces


is a common phrase. The most oft-cited example would be Shadow priests melt faces. 07:40, 1 February 2008 (UTC)Reply

Really? Well, prove me wrong, please. Find three citations here showing that sense, spanning a year. I don't see any evidence for this as a common set phrase. I mean, c'mon - zilch? --Connel MacKenzie 07:44, 1 February 2008 (UTC)Reply
And don't use OPs. You can e-mail me if there is really a need. --Connel MacKenzie 07:45, 1 February 2008 (UTC)Reply



Why this revert? This way {{proto}} can't link to it. Roots have implicit '-' in their name, and that differs them from other POS that can be fully reconstructed for PIE (like those in Category:Proto-Indo-European nouns, not those "nominal stems" as Dbachmann used to lemmatize them) --Ivan Štambuk 11:27, 1 February 2008 (UTC)Reply

A broken template is no reason to move them to the wrong place. Add a parameter for "noun" or "root" to make it point to the right place. I really don't understand the complaint. --Connel MacKenzie 11:36, 1 February 2008 (UTC)Reply
I've redirected lots of those some time ago before you reverted that particular redirect of mine; but I don't understand, why didn't you also redirect the other ones in Category:Proto-Indo-European roots? The template is not "broken", root is everything that ends with "-". reconstructed PIE nouns are also often cited in '-' form, just to be clear what is the stem onto which suffixes are appended, but unlike paper dictionaries that can't afford the cost in space, it's easy to provide full declensional paradigm on wiktionary, lemmatized as nominative singular, which finally renders the '-' postfix superfluous. --Ivan Štambuk 13:34, 1 February 2008 (UTC)Reply
Connel: the page titles should not have "noun" or "root" in them. Robert Ullmann 07:51, 3 February 2008 (UTC)Reply
Wiktionary:Reconstructed terms is very interesting on this. Robert, you added that qualifier to no longer say "noun" or "root"? The respective vote didn't specify that. While I am certain that is a mistake, the relevant policy page, does in fact, support your position. I've made the counter-correction you've suggested, moving it back to what I understand to be the "wrong" appendix title. --Connel MacKenzie 18:46, 3 February 2008 (UTC)Reply

Rollback me


Hi Connel, I screwed up something. Can you revert or rollback the edits I made today from this one?- I didn't read Category:Pages containing style information before changing a bunch of stuff. Sorry--Keene 11:34, 1 February 2008 (UTC)Reply

Done. For future reference: you can do it yourself nearly as fast by enabling "Lupin's Popups" in WT:PREFS. --Connel MacKenzie 11:40, 1 February 2008 (UTC)Reply
Cool, thanks for the tip. I'll try that. Or I might just wait til I become an admin if it doesn't work--Keene 11:43, 1 February 2008 (UTC)Reply

Archival edit summaries.


Hi Connel,

Your archive-bot is very useful; I firmly approve. :-)

One question: would it be possible for the edit summary to indicate somehow the title of the section that's being archived? That would be really useful in looking through the history.

Thanks in advance!

RuakhTALK 11:58, 1 February 2008 (UTC)Reply

There are three significant improvements I want to make to "" - proper section editing (instead of the whole page,) edit summary customization (your request) and proper apostrophe handling in section titles. Unfortunately, all three are a lower priority than rebuilding the older cross-references from the full XML dump analysis and sorting the 27 WT:DEL subpages.
Another somewhat important feature still needed, is double checking that {{rfv has been removed from the target entry, when entries are kept. (If not, then the bot should add a reminder comment to that section...thereby delaying archiving another two weeks.)
Of greater concern, is that the various announcements on WT:GP haven't encouraged quite the help I thought it might. To strike a title is to mark it as kept. Delete the target entry to turn the link red. Sign both events so that people can comment/object/correct/whatever. (Forgetting to sign, can cause the bot to put it into the older archive - which for some of the backlog might be appropriate, if 100% non-controversial.)
Glad you too, like it. --Connel MacKenzie 12:10, 1 February 2008 (UTC)Reply
Understood. :-) —RuakhTALK 12:23, 1 February 2008 (UTC)Reply
Well, you've broken my priority list by presenting me with something interesting. But it isn't workin' right. Yet. --Connel MacKenzie 23:28, 1 February 2008 (UTC)Reply
Ah ha! --Connel MacKenzie 23:52, 1 February 2008 (UTC)Reply
I should recognize these weaknesses of mine, better. --Connel MacKenzie 20:58, 3 February 2008 (UTC)Reply
Great, thank you! —RuakhTALK 04:13, 4 February 2008 (UTC)Reply



Hi, I've responded to your question about copyleft at User talk:Kop. You may wish to start with my final thoughts I just added to the bottom. --kop 14:40, 2 February 2008 (UTC)Reply



I can indeed confirm that Chris.B is my account on the English Wikipedia. I'm afraid I can't answer there as I'm on an enforced wikibreak, but you may wish to have a look at my Wikimatrix on Meta for verification. Apologies for any confusion. Regards, RedCoat 15:32, 2 February 2008 (UTC)Reply

Enabling your e-mail there is still an invisible user preference, isn't it? --Connel MacKenzie 15:40, 2 February 2008 (UTC)Reply
I can't quite make out what you want me to do now. I am currently using a JavaScript-based "wikibreak enforcer" and thus can't sign in to reply or re-enable the email function. What exactly do you mean by "an invisible user preference"? Regards, RedCoat 15:57, 2 February 2008 (UTC)Reply
I mean, in your browser's options turn off javascript for five minutes, (For Firefox: Tools, Options, Content, uncheck "Enable Javascript". For IE: Tools, Internet Options, Security, Internet (zone), Custom Level, Scripting, Active Scripting: prompt or disable. For Netscape: Edit, Preferences, Advanced, Scripts & plugins, uncheck "Navigator".) then visit w:Special:Preferences and check the "Enable e-mail from other users" and click save. (I suppose just replying there would also do the trick, at that point.) --Connel MacKenzie 16:34, 2 February 2008 (UTC)Reply
Okay, done. I've also enabled email for the avoidance of doubt. RedCoat 16:44, 2 February 2008 (UTC)Reply

Block of


Why did you block a user for "stupidity" when ze had no contributions? (I remember some topic on a discussion room about blocking some other IP for "stupidity"). --Ionas | Fuck Censorship 05:14, 3 February 2008 (UTC)Reply

Why would you expect to be able to see deleted entries? This block for you (now for the absurd signature) is incrementally longer than the last. --Connel MacKenzie 06:22, 3 February 2008 (UTC)Reply

Rfc on "ei"


Hi, you added this { {rfc|find source of copyvio, delete}} on the Finnish section of ei. Copyvio...delete? What did you mean by that? -- Frous 19:29, 4 February 2008 (UTC)Reply

It is not remotely possible that that technical exposition was garnered from whole cloth just from common knowledge of that term. No reference for it was given, yet it clearly was copied from somewhere. --Connel MacKenzie 19:37, 4 February 2008 (UTC)Reply

Hair-trigger block


Bite much? Do admins on wiktionary even bother warning well-meaning kids when they make silly mistakes, or do you just show them the door? Disappointedly yours, Anetode 04:15, 7 February 2008 (UTC)Reply

A misspellings vandal entering bad redirects into a dictionary? You realize you're busting my chops over a one day block? I've made mistakes - but this was not one of them. I wouldn't be surprised if another sysop blocked you for this harassment. ONE DAY! No wonder 'pedia is...well, 'pedia. --Connel MacKenzie 04:43, 7 February 2008 (UTC)Reply
I can't see deleted revisions, so if this user created a few useless redirects, then my appraisal of the situation may be mistaken. If this was the case, then I apologize, my assumption was that the block was in direct response to this edit. But to characterize my concern as harassment? Give me a break and get over yourself, I'm not an active contributor to this project and I don't care about whatever petty power games you exercise with your administrator privileges. I'm not here to get into a pissing match with you, have fun threatening anyone who dares to question you on your turf. Cheers, Anetode 05:14, 7 February 2008 (UTC)Reply
Get over yourself, indeed. I'm not concerned about you attacking me, I'm concerned about you advocating misspellings in a dictionary. This dictionary. --Connel MacKenzie 05:18, 7 February 2008 (UTC)Reply
Threat? Fuck you. --Connel MacKenzie 05:19, 7 February 2008 (UTC)Reply
"I wouldn't be surprised if another sysop blocked you for this harassment." I take it that this was not an implicit threat, but merely a reminder to keep civil - a reminder that clearly doesn't apply to you. So long and thanks for all the fish. Anetode 05:31, 7 February 2008 (UTC)Reply
I invite you to look up the word threat. Good riddance. --Connel MacKenzie 06:23, 7 February 2008 (UTC)Reply
At the risk of sounding like a schoolteacher, I'd like to call a time out. Can you both cool it for a while? Posting while tempers are hot is clearly not helping resolve this. Just a thought, -- ArielGlenn 06:30, 7 February 2008 (UTC)Reply

User:Connel MacKenzie/Wantedpages


Just about all mainspace links to onomatopoeic have been fixed to point to onomatopoetic. Why does onomatopoeic redirect to onomatopoetic, though? bd2412 T 21:49, 24 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Why'd you comment here? On User talk:Connel MacKenzie/Wantedpages.
Why are all our main namespace entries point now to the not-really-a-word archaic spelling variant? Dude, vs - is the point to confuse newcomers, or to show off the fact that we love calling misspellings "real words?"
I'll bot-correct these shortly.
--Connel MacKenzie 04:22, 7 February 2008 (UTC)Reply
It seems that both words are considered "correct". The OED has cites for both words going back over 150 years (although onomatopoeic is preferred). Atelaes 04:57, 7 February 2008 (UTC)Reply
OED makes a point of listing obsolete and archaic words - so what? OED, SchmOED.  :-)   Most resources, like perhaps ones that actually care about their readers list that as a misspelling. That it is rare, is beyond question right? So what is the point of confusing readers by using a rare alternate? --Connel MacKenzie 05:03, 7 February 2008 (UTC)Reply
gbc shows 900 cites for the nonexistent variant, and 1200 for the "correct" one. Both certainly deserve entries. Rfv the one if you like. To be honest, I wouldn't even give the second a "common misspelling of", rather I'd give it "alternative spelling of". But, onomatopoeic certainly deserves preference. Atelaes 05:07, 7 February 2008 (UTC)Reply
Huh? I don't want to RFV it - I acknowledge it is a variant. But ALL our main namespace entries that have that characteristic should link to the correct (onomatopoeic) spelling, not the rare (onomatopoetic) variant. --Connel MacKenzie 05:13, 7 February 2008 (UTC)Reply
At the time, the "correct" (onomatopoeic) was a redirect to the (onomatopoetic). If it's wrong, fine, but it was on your list as a missing term with links to it, and I directed those links to the nearest existing entry. bd2412 T 23:29, 8 February 2008 (UTC)Reply
Oh, I see now. Thanks for the explanation. (Always a pleasure to stumble across a almost-year-old subpage thing. Moving it here probably could have been more graceful.) --Connel MacKenzie 23:59, 8 February 2008 (UTC)Reply
Sorry about that. I will clean up my mess. Cheers! bd2412 T 00:21, 9 February 2008 (UTC)Reply

hello connel


just saying hello -- 14:18, 8 February 2008 (UTC)Reply

math spam ??


Look at this knot#See_also. Is that random 'math spam' or something real that i dont have a clue about? Mutante 19:16, 8 February 2008 (UTC)Reply

Do you see the "square root of n" symbol when you edit this section? Edit this section and click it...when it is over three lines of stuff, it is probably intentional. (Why one wouldn't just click [cancel] or close the window, is a bit baffling.) --Connel MacKenzie 19:23, 8 February 2008 (UTC)Reply
Ahaa, i understand now, thanks ;) Mutante 19:27, 8 February 2008 (UTC)Reply

A warning


I don't know if you've been told about this before, but are these unsigned comments yours? At the moment I'm too lazy to go back in the history and see whatnot, but if they are, I would like to warn you about something. Please do not be rude and just block people for "stupidity". And this:

Someone who has in the past made questionable edits here, comes along suggesting a misspelling as a valid alternate. (Note that about half their previous contributions are spam links to external sites, on their user page.)

is unacceptable. Who are you to decide what is "questionable" or not?

This should not reqire a block, just a notice on someone's talk page. Your actions, however, would require a one-day block for being incivil. And we all know this is you:

Importing that template would be more than useless; blocked users cannot comment on their talk pages here. That is custom 'pedia software. I understand you can't see, or didn't notice the deleted redirect that caused the block. Misspelling vandalism might be good for Wikipedia, but doesn't have a place here. A one day block. Your realize you are going on and on about a one day block, right? --Connel MacKenzie 05:10, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

and the signed "no" comment, with no explanation.

You don't explain why importing the "template" (software) would be useless (in actuality I believe it to be useful), just name-calling, just like you did with the [r]thing.

If this was not you, then I'm sorry. --Ionas F

And I do agree with Anetode: You are biting an innocent, well meaning kid and refused to AGF, even if those unsigned comments are not you, the signed ones are enough to prove your incivility and liberal use of the word "vandalism", which, can be considered a personal attack. --Ionas F. -- 21:11, 8 February 2008 (UTC)Reply

Rest assured that citing "stupidity" as a block reason is perfectly acceptable wikt procedure. And if you're going to make accusations against Connel, it would be nice if you could at least sign your accusations. Atelaes 21:10, 8 February 2008 (UTC)Reply
That, in and of itself is stupid. It is only what someone considered stupid, this is new to me, I don't consider a good-faith attempt to include an alternate spelling as vandalism or stupid. I don't think what somebody considers stupid to be a block reason, unless it violates some kind of spirit or letter of policy or guideline, in which, I think Connel should be blocked. --Ionas F. 21:15, 8 February 2008 (UTC)Reply
Gee, in my view, evading a multi-wiki (WMF-wide, right?) ban to troll here, knowing full well you again, can't see deleted edits...gee whiz. That's stupid. --Connel MacKenzie 22:20, 8 February 2008 (UTC)Reply
Gee, in my view, this wiki is overly tolerant with people like you who constantly break the spirit of the guidelines, and then are exempt from blocks. I am not under a WMF-wide ban. I didn't say shit about deleted edits. Was it you that made those unsigned edits? -- 05:21, 9 February 2008 (UTC) Ionas F.Reply
Yes it was. But see Atelaes' comments, and if you want to discuss stupidity as a reason for blocking, there is already a thread in the Beer Parlour. Please stop harassing Connel. Harass me instead if there is something you would like to know. This conversation ends here. DAVilla 06:30, 9 February 2008 (UTC)Reply
I never make unsigned comments. Perhaps someone subdivided my statements for some reason or another. But I sign my talk page comments. --Connel MacKenzie 06:34, 9 February 2008 (UTC)Reply
It may have been the horizontal rule that threw him off, but if it was my fault in dividing the statements then my apology for the lack of clarity. DAVilla 06:39, 9 February 2008 (UTC)Reply

I'd be lying if it didn't bother me at all...but it doesn't bother me too much - I don't think many people were mislead (or even confused) by it. Well, with one obvious exception. But I think that is another (entirely separate) agenda, rathen than genuine confusion...and completely irrelevant. --Connel MacKenzie 06:40, 9 February 2008 (UTC)Reply

Hi Connel. Is


Hot Tea a troll? Jcwf 19:54, 9 February 2008 (UTC)Reply

Yes, by meatball's definition, 100%. --Connel MacKenzie 21:30, 9 February 2008 (UTC)Reply
IRC is handy in too many ways. It is useful for asking a question, because 20 people have the opportunity to give you an immediate answer. (Or in my case, if, say, I were to be flying off the handle in exasperation, someone like User:Opiaterein can provide a word of caution that I apparently need, on occasion.) IRC itself is a simple protocol (you can turn on a primitive link to it, in WT:PREFS, or use a nicer client like Chatzilla, or use a medium-level tool like {{USERNAME}}.) About half the conversations tend to be about specific words, half about technical questions (bot/XML/JS) and a small amount of grousing about wiki politics. Some people use it very efficiently, connecting only one or two hours a week. Others (like me) maintain persistent connections, then "backread" to keep up with current events. It provides access to some of the more advanced vandalism tools as well. Lastly, it inherently promotes cross-wiki cooperation (tremendously.) I haven't seen many blatant abuses of the tool; abuse there tends to get smacked down rather quickly. While I'm sure some subtle abuses of the tool must exist, those are not endemic to IRC. Overall, I find it to be a useful tool. --Connel MacKenzie 01:15, 10 February 2008 (UTC)Reply

To Connel MacKenzie


my friend got blocked due to semperblotto who is he? can he or you unblock him due to vandal lonestar

View source From Wiktionary for User talk:Connel MacKenzie Jump to: navigation, search You do not have permission to do that, for the following reason:

Your user name or IP address has been blocked by SemperBlotto. The reason given is this: exceeded crap limit You may contact SemperBlotto or one of the other administrators to discuss the block. Note that you may not use the "e-mail this user" feature unless you have a valid e-mail address registered in your user preferences. If you have an account, you can still edit your preferences when you are blocked.

Your IP address is Please include this address in any queries you make.

You can view and copy the source of this page:

the reason is unknown he always says excessive crap limit --Lone.guner 04:47, 10 February 2008 (UTC)Reply

I've reviewed the block log, and the crap limit was indeed exceeded from this IP (for example, throwing a delete tag on a perfectly good article here). It's a one day block, so tell your friend to try being more productive tomorrow. Cheers! bd2412 T 05:06, 10 February 2008 (UTC)Reply
I've already replied to him via e-mail. I'm not about to wheel war over a valid block. Excessive poor-and-mediocre edits are the primary complaint. (Note also that the three week incremental block was instead, only one day.) It would behoove him to follow some of my recommendations on that e-mail...and ask for some specific help on specific entries during the block period, so he can come back and vindicate himself (instead of repeating past performance.) --Connel MacKenzie 05:10, 10 February 2008 (UTC)Reply

what the fuck unblock him dont tag team shit on me and 22332 whatever i thought was vandalism due to some asshole that fucked it up i wanted to revert it fuckers — This unsigned comment was added by Lone.guner (talkcontribs).

I think I'll let DAVilla take it from here. --Connel MacKenzie 05:15, 10 February 2008 (UTC)Reply
With those words he won't receive much sympathy from me, but he could try to get an explanation out of SemperBlotto which I think was the original question. DAVilla 05:36, 10 February 2008 (UTC)Reply

davilla you like a war monger or something oh blotto is a ****** — This unsigned comment was added by Lone.guner (talkcontribs).

Coding information


Can you help me understand your code that you use for your wiktionary analysis? For instance in User:Connel_MacKenzie/checktrans I assume the code at the top is shell code, but have you made 1-letter aliases to specific commands? Thanks. --Bequw¢τ 20:16, 10 February 2008 (UTC)Reply

Much more interesting than that. See w:MUMPS ... (yes, commands can be abbreviated to one letter) Robert Ullmann 20:21, 10 February 2008 (UTC)Reply
It is w:MUMPS AKA "M." After each XML dump, I import into my M database the contents of en.wiktionary. I leave little one-liners like that around, to help me remember what I did, particularly when I forget about it for a month or a year. To translate that to pseudo-code for you:
  kill                   ;erase all local variables - start clean
  write #                ;clear screen)
  set x=""
  for  (~= "while (true)") do:
    set x=$order(^wiki2(x)) ;next iteration in main table of Wiktionary entries
    quit:x=""            ;exit loop when done
    set t=^(x,"text")    ;get the text from ^wiki2(x,"text")
    set n=^("name")      ;get the page name from ^wiki2(x,"name")
    if t["{{checktrans", ; "[" = "contains"
       t'["{{ttbc",      ; "," is logical "and" here
         then  write "[["_n_"]] "
               write:$x>60 ! ;wrap text nicely for cut-n-pasting

Hope that helps. --Connel MacKenzie 20:26, 10 February 2008 (UTC)Reply

I have a program around somewhere to convert syntactically correct code into expanded pseudo-code like the above, somewhere, and planned to expand all of at some point, if anyone is interested. Propably more important is to refresh the contents of that directory so that it is current. --Connel MacKenzie 20:30, 10 February 2008 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for the welcome!


{{User talk:Amgine}}

Thanks Connel! - Amgine/talk 20:31, 11 February 2008 (UTC)Reply



Hello Connel, I'm a bit confused by your recent edit to the article TLC where your removed the {{initialism}} header template from the Spanish section. The article no longer categorises into any Spanish category - are we doing away completely with header templates and if so I suppose we need to add category links as appropriate?--Williamsayers79 19:18, 13 February 2008 (UTC)Reply

Whoops. That template can be used as a definition-line quaalifier, but the "|lang=" stuff can't go in headings. Sorry I missed the category. --Connel MacKenzie 19:22, 13 February 2008 (UTC)Reply

Urban Dictionary discussion


Hi Connel,

As per the discussion at User_talk:Conrad.Irwin#Re:_Template:R:Urban_Dictionary, I started a thread in the beer parlour at Wiktionary:Beer_parlour#Referencing_user-contributed_dictionaries_.28like_Urban_Dictionary.29.3F, linking to relevant discussions.

Nbarth (email) (talk) 01:35, 14 February 2008 (UTC)Reply



halp! I got the note about the prod on Affetti, so I went to try to move it over to Wiktionary...but there is already a definition over there for a different meaning of the word...can you help me to sort it out properly so I don't mess anything up over there? The definition that is already there is that its a plural of an Italian word, and I'd like to add the art definition that we've got here but I'm barely up to speed editing over here, I don't want to destroy anything over there :) THANK YOU!! Legotech 17:35, 15 February 2008 (UTC)Reply

I see our entry for affetti - that is what you mean? If not, then pleae add {{Copy to Wiktionary}} to the top of w:Affetti (again?) and it will become Transwiki:Affetti here, to be move/merged into our entry here, if needed. But it already looks to me, like someone has gone to the trouble of trimming the art definition down to a concise, comprehensible definition here, so I'm really unclear on what information you think is missing. --Connel MacKenzie 18:48, 15 February 2008 (UTC)Reply

Brockton block


Please indulge me. This is a good case for me to begin to understand the issues around problem-user or problem-IP behavior. "Brockton" has sent me terse e-mails about "Causeway" "accidentally" causing a block. I noted that Causeway had spammed, apparently once. I take it that the IP address is now blocked. Brockton is, at present, a marginally positive contributor, possibly educable. It could easily be that multiple individuals using a single IP connection sign up for accounts, couldn't it? How many offenses were there from that IP account? If there were not too many, say, 3 or fewer, could we give Brockton a chance? Is there any way of having a really tight monitor on that IP address? Is there a way for non-checkusers to "watch" a specific IP address? (I'd volunteer to monitor anyone I went to bat for, although not 24/7!) Let me know if I have misread the situation and your thoughts about it at your convenience. DCDuring TALK 18:06, 15 February 2008 (UTC)Reply

  • (Sorry for barging in) No, this is a long-time sockpuppet whose entries are fairly easy to spot. It has taken him about two years to learn to add a ==language== and ===part of speach=== headers. ALL of his entries need tender loving care, and most of them are not worth the trouble. SemperBlotto 18:12, 15 February 2008 (UTC)Reply
    "Easy-to-spot", but ineffably, I take it. Not just always the same IP address? So the result of multiple simultaneous uncoordinated, non-expert patrollers is that we get several entries from the same editor in RfV, RfD, or heavy edit. Suggests signing up for coverage in shifts, if it can be done securely. DCDuring TALK 18:38, 15 February 2008 (UTC)Reply

Note: the accounts blocked yesterday were a result of a positive CU check. Many, many, many other directly-related accounts with inconclusive CU results have been left alone, for now. --Connel MacKenzie 18:41, 15 February 2008 (UTC)Reply

Roger, wilco. DCDuring TALK 20:10, 15 February 2008 (UTC)Reply

Talk:Wayobjects Talk:Wayobjects (Copy and paste from)


2008-01-27 Automated pywikipediabot message


Template:transwikied to Wiktionary --CopyToWiktionaryBot (talk) 04:41, 27 January 2008 (UTC)Reply

Not yet successfully completed!!! Peter Horn 17:00, 15 February 2008 (UTC)Reply

Peter Horn 23:12, 28 January 2008 (UTC)Reply

as well as
Before deleting this article look at "what links here".

User:Peter Horn|Peter Horn 18:41, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

No definition yet either way:

INVALID Wikipedia link to: {{wiktionary|Wayobjects}} INVALID Wikipedia link to: {{wiktionary|Wayobject}} User:Peter Horn|Peter Horn 19:49, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

The contents have NOT actually been moved!!! User:Peter Horn|Peter Horn 15:14, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Peter Horn 18:31, 15 February 2008 (UTC)Reply

Please read this


Ok i am new here but i miss spelt my name how can i change it. ~~~~God Loves & You 00:49, 16 February 2008 (UTC)Reply

Wiktionary:Changing username if you have an edit history, but in your case just register a new account and stop using the old one. DAVilla 00:52, 16 February 2008 (UTC)Reply
Thank you. GLYASDI. And yes, your reminder is appreciated right now! --Connel MacKenzie 01:24, 16 February 2008 (UTC)Reply

Extracting Multiword Terms -Transferred from SemperBlotto

Butting in, if I may. John, that sounds very interesting. I've done a straight frequency count of the contents of Project Gutenberg, myself. I haven't done the collocations (SMOC & time constraints) yet. Are there any published algorithms, e.g. for case sensitivity, sentence boundaries, clause boundaries, etc.? I think if the community here sees a list of the top 1,000 collocations, they may soon thereafter change their tune on "Sum-of-Parts" and what it means. (Adding a little levity to a dry topic:  :-) Also, are there any free (as in speech) references out there that you've seen? Of the free sources out there, my frequency analysis is by far, the largest (which I frankly think is pathetic.) But perhaps I'm not looking in the right places? (Or really, looking at all.) --Connel MacKenzie 03:10, 9 February 2008 (UTC)Reply
Hi Connel. There has been a lot of published work with mutual information in text over the past 40 years in Computational Linguistics and Machine Translation communities. The simplest and fastest algorithms use heuristics to include some minimal syntactic constituency into the phrase bounding. So for example instead of doing a complete syntactic parse in order to determine noun phrase boundaries you can just use a list of prepositions and make sure that you don't let one end up phrase final. In other words you don't want "The city of London" and "The city of Paris" to suggest that "The city of" is a significant collocation because it isn't a syntactic constituent. I work with proprietary software, but you might check out "AntConc" on wikipedia. It is a freeware concordancer from Laurence Anthony that claims to extract collocations. It has been on my list to play with it, but I haven't had time. For fun, here's a few of the most frequent collocations that I just mined from the first 10 chapters of Pinocchio from wikisource.

Key Word Term # times # Tok piece of wood 11 3 go to school 7 3 Talking Cricket 6 2 Mastro Antonio 6 2 Mastro Cherry 5 2 A-B-C book 4 2 old man 4 2 tiny voice 4 2 three pears 3 2 Very bad 3 2 no one ! 3 3 Mastro Geppetto 3 2 run away from home 3 4 tip of his nose 2 4

Johnfbremerjr 11:65, 9 February 2008 (UTC)Reply

Wow. I'm curious as to why they found it necessary to parse a sentence grammatically (isn't that impossible in English?) to apply rules. That presupposes much more than I am likely to do in my brute-force approach to analyzing Project Gutenberg. I suppose I should exclude single word propositions (and articles and single word conjunctions) from consideration, for speed and size purposes. I didn't do that when trying to "fingerprint" different writer's styles experimentally 1, 2, 3, 4, and was not displeased with the results. But failing to exclude them might be a DB size issue. Getting too fancy with heuristic exclusions, is probably a bad idea at this stage. Thank you for your comments. (OK, back to regularly scheduled discussion.) --Connel MacKenzie 08:11, 10 February 2008 (UTC)Reply
There are some algorithms you could use that are very simple and that could get you good recall on finding collocations. You can always add linguistic knowledge later to improve precision and clean things up. Improving the precision is the "last 10%" that takes years of effort and tons of code to achieve, but even without it I think the rough collocation lists sorted by frequency can be very helpful for lexicon construction. So to start really really simple you could just stick all of the terms from a text into an array tokenized by whitespace, e.g. "I make cup cakes and they eat cup cakes too" becomes myWordsArry[0]="'I'", myWordsArry[1]="'make'", etc. Then you can have a companion hash that you can use to look up the offsets of any particular term, e.g. myAllWordsHash{'cup'} = "2,7" meaning that the word "cup" is the 3rd and 8th whitespace delimited term in the text. Once you have these data structures constructed you can use a single pass algorithm to calculate the multiword terms "headed" by any given term. You do this by sorting the hash by the terms and then walking through it doing a pairwise comparison of each entry to the next. So for example you look up all the instances of "cup", append some context words and sort, and then compare the instance n to n+1 one word at a time moving left to right. So in the example above we would have line n "cup cakes and" and line n+1 "cup cakes too", so we would compare line n, word w+1 "cakes" with line n+1, word w+1 "cakes" and recognizing that "cup cakes" has been repeated we would add it to our multiword terms myMultiwordTermsFrequencyHash{"'cup cakes'"}+=1 and push (myMultiwordTermsOffsetsHash{"'cup cakes'"}, [2,7]) so that we are keeping track of how many of each multiword term there are and what the offsets back into the text are in case we want to fetch them out later. I call this algorithm "Johnny's Virtual-Concordance-Driven Multiword Term Spotting". FYI, when you do teh comparison of terms you can make sure that you're starting on a left most head by looking left one word comparing line n, word w-1 to line n+1, word w-1 in order to make sure that you're not in the middle of a collocation that is headed by another word. Johnfbremerjr
Wow, something you said there, made me realize that going backwards will be much easier! The first pass through I can do all two word collocations. Second time through, all three-words. Third time, four-word combinations. But going backwards will make my "simple" collocation finder much more efficient with regard to sentence boundaries. I won't dare check anything to prevent larger group inclusion, as that's kindof pointless for Wiktionary: we want the most common two word and most common three word combinations and four, five, six...combos. The more I look at the theory, the more I think any reduction is wrong, for this purpose. Pronouns can be excluded pretty easily from the results, but rebuilding them later, if curious, is essentially impossible. Hmmm. --Connel MacKenzie 06:08, 16 February 2008 (UTC)Reply

I think you're right about not excluding stuff. A lot of the work I've done in the past has been focused on entity recognition so that means I'm mostly limiting things to Noun Phrases, but I've seen lots of work trying to do stuff like text mining for verb subcategorization frames. A full on syntactic parsing system for natural language needs really detailed descriptions of the different possible argument structures for each word. These often include prepositions, "He blew in her ear" and particles, "He blew the bus up". Some systems go even farther and start to assign possible semantic roles to the differnt argument structures. So for example with the syntactic entry for "blow" with the particle "up", X blows Y up you might define X as an agent of the action that is human or robot and Y as the target that is material. It would be nice to see Wiktionary start to define some XML schemas for the dictionary entries such that they could eventually be used as a computational resource. Right now they are pretty informal. Johnfbremerjr 19:23 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Ouch. That's really annoying. You've reminded me I'm supposed to help set up rfc:2229 on toolserver with what's-his-name. Now that the new en.wikipedia XML dump is available, there's a crunch on, to get it available as a bittorrent. (Which I also don't have the free disk space to do.) Ugh. Need more terabytes. --Connel MacKenzie 04:09, 17 February 2008 (UTC)Reply

Feedback script


Hello Connel MacKenzie,
you both have made a great job! But, please have a look on User_talk:Conrad.Irwin#Your_feedback.js. --- Greetings, Melancholie 07:42, 18 February 2008 (UTC)Reply

Another bug: See there - Click on an article link and you will get to instead of! "Allowing multiple votes is intended as we'd have to do privacy-invasive stuff, otherwise.": Already considered cookies? --- Greetings, Melancholie 07:58, 18 February 2008 (UTC)Reply
OK, the works right, now.
Yes, already considered cookies. We assumed we'd have less than 300 votes/clicks per day (so you should expect about 20, I think?) and since they are purged after a day or two, (or a week) and the counts don't really matter it was assumed (by me, mainly) that 500,000,000 votes for MILF would be pretty obviously from just one person.
But now that you mention it, preventing it on the server-side would certainly prevent someone from even trying. And TS is rather overloaded as it is, so preventing attacks is a Good Thing. I'll work out the iphash stuff tomorrow. --Connel MacKenzie 08:44, 18 February 2008 (UTC)Reply
Blegumph! Cruddy server-side check is in place. Enjoy! --Connel MacKenzie 11:11, 18 February 2008 (UTC)Reply

Important: User_talk:Conrad.Irwin#IE7_does_not_vote! --Melancholie 11:37, 18 February 2008 (UTC)Reply

The resulting page on the toolserver opened in a iframe when voting currently shows the number of votes so far. If we want to show the actual results of the feedback survey for the given page, we could do it like this (actually it's the only way, as "cross frame DOM access" is restricted for good reason by good web browsers (and maybe even by IE ;-) Another possibility would be just to let the toolserver result page alert() the results... --- Best regards, Melancholie 00:21, 19 February 2008 (UTC) P.s.: Just linking to the new per page result pages is easier (regarding little space in box), see de:MediaWiki:If-anon-feedback.js and de:MediaWiki:If-user-feedback.js. --- Greetings, Melancholie 01:40, 20 February 2008 (UTC)Reply
Argh. I need some translation help with those. What does it say? --Connel MacKenzie 01:56, 20 February 2008 (UTC)Reply
Just wanted to say, that <h5> and fb_thanks are linked to the pages you provided yesterday! Furthermore for users those links are shown in the toolbox, now (in German Wiktionary). --- Greetings, Melancholie 02:17, 20 February 2008 (UTC)Reply
Sry, busy with archiving, (interrupted by CU) so, maybe tomorrow I'll write the single-page thing. --Connel MacKenzie 00:34, 19 February 2008 (UTC)Reply
Sheesh. OK, where was I? Oh, almost done with WT:DEL archive rebuilding... --Connel MacKenzie 02:04, 19 February 2008 (UTC)Reply

Do you also intend to output the results by a given time range? E.g. 2008-02-20 til 2008-02-25? Because vote results for only one day aren't very representative, I guess! --- Best regards, Melancholie 02:14, 19 February 2008 (UTC)Reply


now work, with the default for &fb_wiki=enwiktionary. --Connel MacKenzie 07:26, 19 February 2008 (UTC)Reply

Hello Connel,
Nevertheless, this project gets better and better :-) --- Best regards, Melancholie 02:18, 20 February 2008 (UTC)Reply




I presume you were referring to my work on Little Russia. (What does WWIN mean?)

I started each entry with the simple definition, and then expanded it to specifically define what the thing is, and what it is not. I'm not sure how to accomplish this without referring to the historic facts. I also tried to be precise about specific translations that are often used indiscriminately, like province, district, region, etc. It's a detailed definition, but I tried to restrict it to a definition and not attach unnecessary encyclopedic information.

Feel free to pare it down if you see anything which doesn't fit the bill. —Mzajac 20:07, 18 February 2008 (UTC)Reply

"What Wiktionary Is Not."  :-)
I'm not sure that two separate senses is accurate. The word is used to mean anywhere around there, not the exact, specific boundaries, right? --Connel MacKenzie 20:09, 18 February 2008 (UTC)Reply
Little Russia in general meant lands inhabited by Little Russians—ethnic Ukrainians. I suppose at the time in colloquial Russian it would also refer to Ukrainian lands outside of the Russian Empire (i.e. parts of Austrian Galicia and Ottoman Bukovyna).
But the territory of Little Russia also included political-administrative divisions which had Little Russia as part of their official name (the Province, later Governorate of Little Russia, and still later the Little Russian Governorates-General of the Left Bank and of the Right Bank), as well as at least one which didn't (the Province of Kharkiv). These did have specific boundaries (which were shuffled around several times in history).
See also my recent contribution to Ruthenia.
Thanks. —Mzajac 21:15, 18 February 2008 (UTC)Reply
For comparison, my CanOD only has an entry for Little Russian, hist. n and adj, defined as "(a) Ukrainian". —Mzajac 21:22, 18 February 2008 (UTC)Reply



Hi. I also deleted this entry at 18:32 I think it should be watched, along with anyone who tries to re-enter it. Cioa. -- Algrif 19:10, 19 February 2008 (UTC)Reply

Yes, I saw that. After a couple more I'll protect the deleted page. Won't cry if someone beats me to it, though.  :-)   --Connel MacKenzie 19:13, 19 February 2008 (UTC)Reply
Better still, would be if the real definition was entered then semi-protected. --Connel MacKenzie 19:14, 19 February 2008 (UTC)Reply

wiktionary-l subscribers


I am not subscribed to the wiktionary-l mailing list (nor do I intend to add yet-another-mailing-list-that-I'll-never-in-a-million-years-be-able-to-stay-on-top-of) and I think you mentioned that you are. Could you please announce Wiktionary:Votes/cu-2008-02/User:TheDaveRoss there? --Connel MacKenzie 21:26, 19 February 2008 (UTC)Reply

I'm a little embarrassed to say that I'm not either. I figure as long as I'm active here there's no need to be, right? Hopefully someone will see this and pick up on it. DAVilla 22:43, 19 February 2008 (UTC)Reply
OK, I've passed it on to IRC - couple subscribers of were there. --Connel MacKenzie 22:48, 19 February 2008 (UTC)Reply
Oh, it seems to be an Information Desk for WikiMedia non-Wiktionary regulars. Since this is the only project I much care about, I don't see the point of joining. DAVilla 23:19, 19 February 2008 (UTC)Reply

m:n:project:IRC and #cafenea


Dear Connel; Thanks again for your help at #cafenea. I have seen that the bot « CalulBalan » has Wiktionary and not Wikipedia as default project family:

[[Craiova]] links to at Wik†ionar (Wiktionary in Romanian language] as

it should link to

[[Craiova]] at Wikipedia in Romanian language as

Could you please change this? Thanks for all your help in advance! Best regards
‫·‏לערי ריינהארט‏·‏T‏·‏m‏:‏Th‏·‏T‏·‏email me‏·‏‬ 10:40, 21 February 2008 (UTC)Reply

Done? --Connel MacKenzie 11:48, 21 February 2008 (UTC)Reply



I must be missing something.. I have never edited this entry.. 16@r 11:58, 21 February 2008 (UTC)Reply

Butting in: visualisation. /Butting in. DCDuring TALK 20:57, 21 February 2008 (UTC)Reply
Replied on his talk page. --Connel MacKenzie 21:17, 21 February 2008 (UTC)Reply
Perhaps this reflects a larger problem; foreign words entered that preclude English words (by merit of us not even seeing the the red-links, because they are blue) are not methodically search and detected. AFAIK, 16r is the first user to actively enter such terms; earlier similar mistakes have been caught much more quickly. I must admit, the obscure British spelling is uncommon, which may have compounded the issue for this particular entry. --Connel MacKenzie 21:17, 21 February 2008 (UTC)Reply
It's a problem in every language other than English, where the color of the link is not reliable. That it's a rare problem for English is not the fault of any particular contributor. The OED Any unabridged dictionary (edit:) The English language itself has several times as many English words as we do, and the odds are a number of them are blue here and lacking an English section. Yeah, you could ask for a quick look-up, and that's going to create a lot of entries like jefe which you weren't too thrilled about, if I remember correctly. Anyway, this entry was created a year ago, so...? DAVilla 11:22, 26 February 2008 (UTC)Reply
Apparently you don't use Hippietrail's "Orange links" thing. Wholesale copyright violation from the OED is a very strange conclusion to reach, DAVilla. On the other hand, "visualization" (and presumably its British counterpart also) is a painfully common word that shouldn't be precluded by FL entries. --Connel MacKenzie 13:42, 26 February 2008 (UTC)Reply
No, I don't know what that is, but it sounds like it could use some fine tuning, and as a bonus maybe it could be useful for languages other than English as well. Wasn't it exactly Hippietrail who'd been working on language discrimination?
OED was given as an example. I should have appealed to M-W since I forgot you don't consider the OED to be as authoritative. DAVilla 17:50, 26 February 2008 (UTC)Reply
Hippietrail's thing does work, but only if you turn it on. The OED is an authoritative collection of most possible combinations of letters, especially obsolete combinations. With the signal to noise ratio being so low for the OED, indeed, I do not consider it to be of any usable value. But that aside, wholesale copyright violation from is not acceptable either, particularly when trawling their lists for obscure (or very obscure) items. We have our own methods for generating lists of missing entries; copying from other references is always wrong, here. --Connel MacKenzie 18:05, 26 February 2008 (UTC)Reply
Okay, I think this is getting off-point, and I agree with everything you say, so I'll just correct myself and drop it. DAVilla 05:40, 27 February 2008 (UTC)Reply

Word list


I was checking links into a word and found your page User:Connel MacKenzie/usr/share/dict/words. Great list of words. I don't recognize the source file: how reliable is it for spelling and such? Should I expect to find many words that don't meet CFI? Thanks. RJFJR 19:05, 21 February 2008 (UTC)Reply

That is the main file used for "aspell" on Because I'm not certain of it's source, I'm not sure it can be used here...perhaps it should be listed on RFDO as a possible copyright violation...if I can't figure out where it came from. --Connel MacKenzie 19:14, 21 February 2008 (UTC)Reply
I googled aspell and found which says it is part of GNU. Should be a compatible license if it was entered as part of gnu but we might have to better document the source. As a word list for checking our coverage, like a concordance, seems OK to me. We may want to delete it when we're done checking our coverage. RJFJR 19:23, 21 February 2008 (UTC)Reply
Well, yes. I found the same site at about the same time you did, from the man page. Digging just a little further, it seem that Kevin says it is - wait, I can't tell what the heck he's saying they are released as. (But yes, whatever it is, he obviously intented for it, as we do, to be GNU-compatible! I.e. GPL or GFDL.) To answer your earlier question regarding our CFI, I think DAVilla's vote of Sep/Oct/Nov 2007 makes those ones "likely to meet CFI" but I (obviously) never completely understood his specification there. The Given Names and Surnames and Place Names, seem to have general consensus for inclusion. --Connel MacKenzie 19:36, 21 February 2008 (UTC)Reply
If you feel like being bold, splitting that into 26 subpages, I'd be quite pleased. --Connel MacKenzie 19:38, 21 February 2008 (UTC)Reply
Splitting into subpages is complete. While doing that I noticed a number of pipe characters embedded in the data. I don't know what they are doing there. (It also has a number of names of brand name products). RJFJR 03:57, 22 February 2008 (UTC)Reply

WT:PREFS arabic alphabet


There are several characters which I cannot click in the "special characters in the search field" box. - [The]DaveRoss 17:17, 24 February 2008 (UTC)Reply

Check the section name in MediaWiki:Edittools... --Connel MacKenzie 18:50, 24 February 2008 (UTC)Reply
Seems to have started working randomly, I'll fiddle around and see if I can figure out what it was. Thanks - [The]DaveRoss 19:30, 24 February 2008 (UTC)Reply
Sounds more like a caching problem. ctrl-f5? --Connel MacKenzie 21:00, 24 February 2008 (UTC)Reply
Might have been, haven't been able to reproduce. - [The]DaveRoss 21:03, 24 February 2008 (UTC)Reply

Wiktionary:Literal and figurative language


Hi. I just rolled back a couple of stupid entries, only to realise that the earlier entries were further stupidities, and, as they cannot be rolled back I'm not sure of the correct procedure. Can I leave it with you? Cheers. -- Algrif 19:22, 24 February 2008 (UTC)Reply



In the interests of peace of mind I have deleted my comment from your talk page. DaBPunkt fixed the problem by manually editing the database. Yours Conrad.Irwin 00:23, 25 February 2008 (UTC)Reply

Hrm. Dude, it's a wiki. Seeing goofy "hacking" attempts is part of the game - the fact that you can sometimes see them means they didn't work. (Presumably, because I did sanitize the input adequately during the early tests, blah, blah, blah.) --Connel MacKenzie 15:11, 25 February 2008 (UTC)Reply



I reverted your edit of this entry. The definition which you introduced is not supported by the Wikipedia article on this substance. __meco 08:18, 28 February 2008 (UTC)Reply

Your assertion is completely false - I made that modification because of the Wikipedia article and its references. --Connel MacKenzie 17:04, 28 February 2008 (UTC)Reply
I have written most of that Wikipedia article and have been following the Jenkem story for close to two years now. Your reading of that article cannot be other than superficial, and I am surprised that you don't take a second and more thorough look when you are being corrected. What Jenkem is is not what the controversy you seem to have balked at is about. The controversy is all about whether Jenkem use has been taking place, or taking a foothold even, in the US. I have now added a paragraph to the introduction of the Wikipedia article to emphasize this distinction. The part about it being a hoax should definitely be removed from the dictionary definition. __meco 21:17, 28 February 2008 (UTC)Reply



your allegation that this edit inserted "false" information is completely unfounded. The edit did cite the source consulted (OED). The information added is directly informed by OED: lob n. (1) "a spider".[5] lob n. (2) "A country bumpkin: a clown, lout. Now dial."[6] One would expect the minimal courtesy that you would actually verify a claim before idly claiming it is "false", let alone revert it, let alone use the block function. When in doubt, a polite enquiry often works wonders. Your misplaced aggression is damaging to the project: it seems obvious that you should not be trusted with admin functions. Dbachmann 14:25, 28 February 2008 (UTC)Reply

As I've mentioned above, the OED is not a reliable source. That's one reason we have {{nosecondary}}. Furthermore, I specifically referenced 1913 - that "spider" meaning is a fabrication, as is the "bumpkin" meaning. --Connel MacKenzie 17:08, 28 February 2008 (UTC)Reply
Rechecking the "The Oxford Dictionary of English (2nd edition revised)" yes, indeed, both "spider" and "bumpkin" meanings are clearly fabrications, not obsolete. --Connel MacKenzie 17:13, 28 February 2008 (UTC)Reply

About block earlier


Hi, Connel, I remember you blocking me 23 days ago when I was adding to marshmallow, and you just plain blocked me for it when I did nothing wrong. That was uncalled for. You were biting a newcomer for that. I'm somewhat inexperienced with this wiki, and I'm beginning to get more as I get used to it. I still didn't like that block you gave me. I find it impolite to block anyone who did nothing wrong. I was about to add more references to my userpage until you came along and blocked me for no apparent reason, but you say I inserted false information, but it was not false info, it was only a misspelling added! When I was blocked, I was extremely embarassed (and not in a good way)! I couldn't add any references, or even leave messages! Then I had nothing to do! That made me feel like I was under a curse, because it worsened my day. You know how rude it is to block innocent users when they were doing nothing wrong. You owe me an apology.Kitty53 19:38, 29 February 2008 (UTC)Reply

Sorry to but in, however: Kitty53 as you have not bee following this discussion on Wiktionary, you will not know the amount of fuss it caused. Had you read all of that (it is spread around in the Beer parlour and the Wiktionary vote archives among other places) then you would not be asking this. This discussion has been settled to the satisfaction of the Wiktionary community, and it does not need further discussion. Yes, Connel may have been wrong but please, for the sake of the community, rise above it. Conrad.Irwin 19:50, 29 February 2008 (UTC)Reply



Sorry about that; habits from Wikipedia and all. :) Trivialist 20:30, 29 February 2008 (UTC)Reply



i tried to stop some of it. and also good to see ya connel. -- 04:10, 1 March 2008 (UTC)Reply

Speeding up bot


Is there a way to speed up bots? Whenever mine's going, it announces it is sleeping for 3.8 seconds, before adding the next page. Any way of making the 3.8 seconds become 0.1 seconds, and speeding the process up? --Keene 23:47, 1 March 2008 (UTC)Reply

Yes. The I think is where that setting hides. (Maxsleep, or something.) Be sure you have the community nod before doing so. (In general, I think the sleeps are harmful, as they don't spare the servers any significant grief, but do make it annoying to watch and wait for.) The one reason to keep (or increase) the sleep, is if you have had entries questioned, and people still want to review them closely for a few more weeks. (And what do you care? The bot will catch up while you sleep, but your main entries are still normal speed, simply queueing up a gazillion form-of entries, right? Or has that bot changed that much since I last saw it?) --Connel MacKenzie 23:54, 1 March 2008 (UTC)Reply
Ha, I was pretty close. It is, but it is minthrottle and maxthrottle. --Connel MacKenzie 00:38, 2 March 2008 (UTC)Reply
Well, actually. And "put throttle". At least on mine. --Keene 10:29, 2 March 2008 (UTC)Reply
Erm, no, is something different. (Unless I've done it wrong...entirely possible.) --Connel MacKenzie 16:42, 2 March 2008 (UTC)Reply
You are supposed to make the changes in, not in See note at the top of Else your configuration will get overwritten when you update to a new version of the framework. Robert Ullmann 16:47, 2 March 2008 (UTC)Reply

Connel my wiki

[edit] i thought you might like to join. --Yukongold 03:22, 2 March 2008 (UTC)Reply

also just wondering but how can i create my own wiktionary? please reply. --Yukongold 03:24, 2 March 2008 (UTC)Reply

morris dance


Hi. I looked at the IP's edit earlier today, and decided it was a more accurate description. Being from UK, and having seen many morris dances, I would agree that "team" is not only the correct word, but also, women can sometimes be included. Furthermore, sticks are optional, not essential. -- Algrif 17:24, 2 March 2008 (UTC)Reply

I believe we are now crisscross posting. Having never seen one, eliminating the fact that it is traditionally a men's dance is astoundingly misleading. Please take a look at Definition sometime - the purpose of defining a term is not to mislead readers. If you want to tweak the wording to say "usually by men" or "mostly by male dancers" or "almost always men" or similar, that is one thing. But eliminating the meaning is quite another. --Connel MacKenzie 17:33, 2 March 2008 (UTC)Reply
Point taken -- Algrif 17:35, 2 March 2008 (UTC)Reply
(And yes, I plan on removing that short term block as soon as I've finished correcting the other edits and talk-paging.) --Connel MacKenzie 17:54, 2 March 2008 (UTC)Reply
That's what I get for AGF of someone who obviously is here with a twisted agenda. Is there any reason to waste my time researching this stuff? When they are crap contribs, they are crap; I guess my instinct to just rollback all was probably better. --Connel MacKenzie 18:14, 2 March 2008 (UTC)Reply
I have never (ever) seen women morris dancing. Perhaps it is a modern feminist thing. Also, the use of sticks or handerchiefs (I think) is a matter of local convention - I've seen hankies in Gloucestershire and sticks elsewhere. SemperBlotto 18:18, 2 March 2008 (UTC)Reply
Maybe it was just poor vision, fooled by the drag costumes? I don't know, and don't care what that person's problem is/was. --Connel MacKenzie 18:25, 2 March 2008 (UTC)Reply



I guess you're right. I mean, I had actually seen the word in a magazine before, but I suppose I shouldn't have edited seeing as how I forgot to write down any of the neccessary citation info. Thanks for correcting me. Teh Rote 18:11, 3 March 2008 (UTC)Reply

Welcome message at my talk page


Hello Connel, I do not understand the intention of the welcome message from you at my user talk page. What part of that message should I take notice of? --Daniel Polansky 08:31, 4 March 2008 (UTC)Reply

Some of the entries you've entered this last month (since the 2/14/2008 XML dump) are in conflict with WT:ELE - obviously you aren't following it, or you wouldn't be generating cleanup items. "Welcome", as always, is a plea for you to read WT:ELE and follow it. --Connel MacKenzie 15:07, 4 March 2008 (UTC)Reply
Thanks. Now, could you please mention one or two of these entries? I really have no idea in which way I am breaking layout conventions. This nonspecific feedback does not really tell me how I can improve. I have read WT:ELE, and have always tried to stick to it, checking it in case of doubt. --Daniel Polansky 17:47, 4 March 2008 (UTC)Reply
Oh no. I've just checked twice and I think I may have misclicked (wrong username,) as I see nothing untoward in any of your recent contributions, nor anything you did previously to my edits around the time I posted that message on your talk page. I had quite recently finished regenerating so there may have been a section there with headings with spaces in them, or something, that you coincidentally edited. If I see something again, I'll be sure to be much more specific. --Connel MacKenzie 21:01, 4 March 2008 (UTC)Reply
I'm glad it is clarified now. When I have read at my talk page that I might want to consider to log in instead of using anonymous IP, I originally thought it must have been a kind of misclick. Anyway. :). --Daniel Polansky 21:10, 4 March 2008 (UTC)Reply

Adding sidebartrans to WT:PREFS


I was wondering if it'd be ok to edit User talk:Connel MacKenzie/custom.js to add an option for User:Bequw/sidebartranslate.js to WT:PREFS? It converts the sidebar languages to be displayed in English (rather than in the FL). It's copied from w:User:Tra/sidebartranslate.js and I've been using it for a while. Thanks --Bequw¢τ 20:50, 4 March 2008 (UTC)Reply

I think that would be fantastic. You'll add #44 to User:Connel MacKenzie/custom.js then again where it load the JS in the middle section, then add a commentary for it at the bottom. I do wish this had been moved out of my talk space sooner. Moving it now will break many things (some not even on en.wiktionary!) --Connel MacKenzie 21:03, 4 March 2008 (UTC)Reply
To clarify: yes, please be bold. --Connel MacKenzie 21:03, 4 March 2008 (UTC)Reply
Bolded. See if you like it. --Bequw¢τ 18:54, 5 March 2008 (UTC)Reply
Nice. (I have it turned on, seems to work well!) --Connel MacKenzie 23:24, 5 March 2008 (UTC)Reply

Some Czech proverbs


Hello Connel, recently, when you asked me to keep WT:ELE, you could have had the following in mind:

I have created that entry in the hope that in that state it is better than nothing, and that someone else can do the rest of the work, like wikifying the words of which the entry is composed. I too am wikifying some other entries, and cleaning them up, after someone else has left them in an imperfect state.

If you prefer that I do not create these Czech proverb entries at all, I can do so.

I cannot with any confidence provide the idiomatic meaning of the entry, despite being a native speaker. To me, proverbs are strange beasts; any attempt of mine to provide their idiomatic meaning would be guesswork.

What I could promise to do next time around is to wikify the single words of which the entry is composed.

You asked why {{infl}} is not used. Is that template preferable to {{cs-prov}}? Why? Are not language specific templates preferable to {{infl}}? If not, is that documented somewhere? In that vein, is it then wrong to have and use {{cs-noun}}?

--Daniel Polansky 10:28, 5 March 2008 (UTC)Reply

The issue may also be resulting from the fact that WT:ELE says virtually nothing on the creation and formatting of proverbs, and that I have found no policy specifically on how do handle proverbs. It seems to me that handling non-English proverbs is rather specific as compared to, say, non-English nouns and adjectives. --Daniel Polansky 12:42, 5 March 2008 (UTC)Reply

I've put at its discussion page a close Romanian relative, hopefully whoever makes that page acceptable, will do the same for the other one too. --Skepsis 02:44, 8 March 2008 (UTC)Reply

Sorry for the delay getting back to this. Every time I look a little closer, another subtlety appears. My initial complaint was about the format, not the contents. Proverbs are often some of the best entries on en.wiktionary. I'd be kicking myself for years, if I did something to discourage their entry.
It appears my chagrin was completely misplaced. I though that {cs-prov} was actually {cs-noun} or similar...I didn't realize it was the correct inflection template at all. Yes, all component words of the entry's headword need to be wikilinked (no matter what language) but in hindsight, that seems to be an astronomically petty concern.
Looking at the entry, I do recall wondering what the English equivalent was...and being annoyed that none was listed. Looking at it more and more, I can't think of an equivalent. The closest idiom we seem to have is "shit happens" which doesn't match the register, at all.
The {{infl}} is to be used only when there is no viable substitute like {{cs-prov}}. Using "cs-prov" is far and beyond, the right one to use there, so I'm now very confused, as to why I was so sure it was wrong. And apparently, at the time, I was.
Thank you very much, for clearing up my confusion on this one. I hope you can determine a closer English equivalent for it...none seem obvious, at the moment. --Connel MacKenzie 06:16, 8 March 2008 (UTC)Reply
Thank you. I am about to replace the literal translation with an estimated meaning of the proverb, as I think finding a direct equivalent is going to be difficult. There is still one issue with the proverbs: where to put literal translations, and how to format them, given they are wanted at all. An attempt to sum up the issue has been made at Wiktionary talk:About Czech#Proverbs; I and User:ThomasWasHere found it difficult to determine what the common practice was, as follows from the table in the linked section.
An aside: I hope your talk page is not an altogether wrong place to discuss this issue. I already wondered whether I should have opened this thread at Grease pit. --Daniel Polansky 07:01, 8 March 2008 (UTC)Reply
My talk page is still fine for this, but yes, a separate discussion somewhere else is better (linking back here is OK.) The zh: idioms and proverbs are the gold standard for how to enter them. User:A-cai has done some spectacular work on those. Each idiom is different - sometimes it seems superfluous to enter a literal translation, other times absolutely essential.
Still wondering though..."no one lives forever"? "Nothing lasts forever"? --Connel MacKenzie 07:08, 8 March 2008 (UTC)Reply
Thanks for the links on zh: .
I estimate that the meaning of the proverb is: be careful not to use thing too much, lest they break down at some point. But I will check this with other Czech speakers.
Another issue: should I move Category:Czech proverbs to Category:cs:Proverbs? It seems to follow from your recent addition to Category:German proverbs, and from modeling on zh: proverb category. --Daniel Polansky 07:17, 8 March 2008 (UTC)Reply
I shall continue trying to walk on eggshells regarding that topic. I won't run '' on those until I have solid confirmation from EncycloPetey. --Connel MacKenzie 07:23, 8 March 2008 (UTC)Reply

patrol error


any thoughts? Not on the color, that is MSPaint's fault. - [The]DaveRoss 23:19, 5 March 2008 (UTC)Reply

The last time I looked at that bug, I didn't find the repeat. I'm not sure if it really is getting marked three times separately or not. IFAIK, no one really cares to dig deep enough to find the error though. Not too many people see it, so I'm not too worried. Should I be? --Connel MacKenzie 23:23, 5 March 2008 (UTC)Reply
If you aren't concerned I am not concerned, just making you aware. - [The]DaveRoss 23:46, 5 March 2008 (UTC)Reply

Militant RFVing


Please take a step back for a moment, to consider the backlog of RFV. Items can be cleared and reviewed later. If you wish to call a small handful into question, please consider waiting a few days on them, so that some of the enormous discussions can shrink first. Then quietly (or otherwise) re-list the ones that overly concern you.

But do cease with the inane wheel-warring. --Connel MacKenzie 00:27, 10 March 2008 (UTC)Reply

Dude, I don't know how tattle-taling helps anybody. Isn't anyone here a grown-up? It's also apparent that you chastise without having any clue of the infinitely minor scuffle that occurred today over the course of like 3 edits, at which point the dude apparently ran and tattled. You talk about "enormous discussions" shrinking in the next few days, when my concerns were only over six-month old discussions I was a part of and the other contributor was not. The other contributor made several unintelligent judgment calls about "passing" or "failing" when discussions were ambiguous and without closure at best (as many are). He then made a few retardedly careless errors -- selecting too much text and adding a retarded /nowiki block of deleted text on the top of a completely unrelated RFV with no explanation. Before getting out the schoolmarm ruler and calling me up to the blackboard, at least know what's going on and who the dunce is. -- Thisis0 02:43, 10 March 2008 (UTC)Reply

"Show" tags


Do you wish to comment the discussions on Grease pit or Beer parlour before more is tried? :) Best regards Rhanyeia 16:56, 10 March 2008 (UTC)Reply

Thank you, yes, those are of interest to me, but I haven't recently had time to keep up with new threads. --Connel MacKenzie 16:58, 10 March 2008 (UTC)Reply

Naming of categories for non-English proverbs


FYI, I have raised the issue of naming of the categories for non-English proverbs at Beer parlour. --Daniel Polansky 18:37, 10 March 2008 (UTC)Reply

I thought the discussion was at WT:RFDO, actually. --Connel MacKenzie 21:14, 10 March 2008 (UTC)Reply

Because you obviously need more work to do...


I have no idea how to use AJAX and js to manipulate RC, but you do, so I was wondering how hard it would be to create a highlighting PREF-type thing, where I can choose a color to highlight a line of RC based on certain criteria (maybe light blue for talk pages, light green for NS:0, light red for talk pages...that kind of thing). Would AJAX/js be able to accomplish this and is it trivial enough that I could do it? - [The]DaveRoss 21:23, 14 March 2008 (UTC)Reply

b:Special:PrefixIndex/Common phrases in various languages


This will be deleted soon, and I think someone over here decided it was wanted. Would you please confirm that's so, or else let me know it's not wanted. Either way, it needs to be deleted soon. Thanks! – Mike.lifeguard | @en.wb 18:52, 19 March 2008 (UTC)Reply

Thank you kindly! There's one or two smaller ones still in b:Category:Modules for transwiki, but nothing urgent (the above had been pending for some time, and needed to be deleted). – Mike.lifeguard | @en.wb 20:36, 19 March 2008 (UTC)Reply

Did you get all the subpages of b:Glossary of Astronomical Terms too? Just double-checking. No need to mark all of them, but just drop one on my talk if so. Thanks! – Mike.lifeguard | @en.wb 02:11, 21 March 2008 (UTC)Reply

Subpages? Oh no! Those are ALL subpages! --Connel MacKenzie 02:27, 21 March 2008 (UTC)Reply
That's why I wanted to make sure :) – Mike.lifeguard | @en.wb 02:28, 21 March 2008 (UTC)Reply

User blocked


I can't understand why my user (User:Lou_Crazy) was blocked. It's the same username I use on en.wikipedia and other wikis. Can you help me? You can reply in my discussion page, I keep reading it.

-- 15:32, 31 March 2008 (UTC)Reply

That user is not blocked, maybe it's a different problem (See ). Conrad.Irwin 15:39, 31 March 2008 (UTC)Reply
Or perhaps. How is that an acceptable username anywhere? --Connel MacKenzie 21:53, 31 March 2008 (UTC)Reply
I don't understand what is unacceptable about "Lou Crazy" as a username? ("Lou is Crazy" I could understand). Thryduulf 23:15, 31 March 2008 (UTC)Reply
Sorry, what? In what way, does a suggestive name like that imply someone intends to help write a dictionary? A name like that is to cause disruption. Is he suggesting Wikipedia is crazy? Wiktionary is crazy? He is crazy? None of those things can be helpful to writing a dictionary. --Connel MacKenzie 22:13, 1 April 2008 (UTC)Reply
Erm, how on earth can you say that someone intends not to help write a dictionary just because of a name like "Lou Crazy"!? "Lou the troll", possibly (and even then not necessarily), but crazy has a range of meanings, many of them used harmlessly. Has it never been said that you're crazy to spend your free time writing a dictionary without getting paid? It's certainly been said to me. Perhaps Lou just took it as a monika like many disparaging and derogatory phrases are (one my nicknames is "Awkward" for example).
Alternatively, perhaps it is a username he uses elsewhere - perhaps he's crazily good at first-person shoot-em-up games, or perhaps he drives crazily in racing games? Maybe he's known for having crazy ideas like trying to convince people that there should be a Free dictionary that defines all words in all languages?
I would much, much rather let people's contributions speak for them rather than a name that may or may not mean anything in the context of Wiktionary. Looking at their en.wikipedia account they appear to be a respected editor, particularly with reference to Scouting articles. I am not aware of any case of a respected editor on one project being a vandal on another. Also, their user page there suggests their native language is Italian, we don't have Italian translations for all senses of crazy, and those we do have do not go into the nuances of meaning (I don't speak Italian).
All in all, see no reason at all for this user to be blocked based on their username. I will not unblock them myself, but I do hope that other admins offer their opinions and unblock if they deem fit. Thryduulf 00:28, 2 April 2008 (UTC)Reply
Crazy can be considered an endearment or a comedy name, such as in one of the definitions of crazy is "overly excited or enthusiastic". If this is the only reason Lou is blocked I'd be very worried.... Goldenrowley 01:22, 2 April 2008 (UTC)Reply
I am worried that you wish to support an obviously disruptive name - there is no possible positive connotation in this (dictionary) context. If he's crazy about a first-person shooter game, perhaps he should "play" that instead. --Connel MacKenzie 01:53, 3 April 2008 (UTC)Reply
On the other hand, I am extremely worried that you wish to block a user who is a proven and experienced contributor on at least two Wikipedias on the grounds of a username that is not offensive or indicative of disruption in the opinion of at least two other editors in good standing here (myself and Goldenrowley). Thryduulf 07:30, 3 April 2008 (UTC)Reply
There's no point in speculating on the meaning of a username. The name is not offensive or disruptive in any way. It is jocular at best, but none of us signed up to be high school librarians, so that's not an issue. The bigger issue here is the presumption that this user has already committed disruption, when the more likely scenario is that they will contribute in good faith (or would have), and it is, after all, on the merit of someone's edits that we ought to be judging them. Dmcdevit·t 07:41, 3 April 2008 (UTC)Reply
I agree. While there certainly are times when usernames are inappropriate and should be blocked solely based on the name (impersonating users, bots; obscenities), I do not think this case is one of them. Please Connel, unblock. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 07:52, 3 April 2008 (UTC)Reply
Many of our younger contributors will have silly on-line names. I think we need thicker skin and more evidence-based decision-making about such matters. DCDuring TALK 10:39, 3 April 2008 (UTC)Reply
There are 27 persons in the US with the last name "Crazy" listed in the online phone directory. DCDuring TALK 10:55, 3 April 2008 (UTC)Reply
Thanks Connel.  :-) -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 08:08, 6 April 2008 (UTC)Reply
I just think it is a harmless nickname. For example, I think of w:Crazy Horse. I'd give this person a chance. Goldenrowley 05:19, 8 April 2008 (UTC)Reply



Why? --BiT 02:09, 3 April 2008 (UTC)Reply

Why was nonsense deleted? Is that the question? Or do you want to know if that is actually a word? It is not. Some kid in grade school apparently wants credit for coining it, a la JOSH IS GAY! --Connel MacKenzie 06:09, 3 April 2008 (UTC)Reply
I for one do not know in what condition the entry was in before you deleted it, but I do know that this is a highly prominent slang onomatopoeia and verb. You can see how many entries it has in the Urban Dictionary and the people I know in real life use it a lot (they used it a lot yesterday for that matter). --BiT 12:30, 3 April 2008 (UTC)Reply
Published books that use the term please. --Connel MacKenzie 20:55, 3 April 2008 (UTC)Reply
Please note that its appearance in UD is a good indication that it is not a real word. --Connel MacKenzie 21:00, 3 April 2008 (UTC)Reply
Oh of course UD shouldn't be taken too seriously, but it's still a much used word. And since when do words have to have been published in books for them to become real words? The words "1337", "h4x0r" and "pwn" are all similar words which aren't likely to appear in books but are nevertheless used very frequently on the internet (on 4chan for example) and in video games. --BiT 23:51, 3 April 2008 (UTC)Reply
It wasn't my idea to use published books as references, but I (like the Wiktionary community) agree it is the right compromise. Three printed books please, no secondary sources, showing the term in use. --Connel MacKenzie 15:53, 4 April 2008 (UTC)Reply
There is no reference to three published books in the WT:CFI. --Richardb 02:55, 6 April 2008 (UTC)Reply
Right, it is on the RFV page. "Cite, on the article page, usage of the word in permanently recorded media, conveying meaning, in at least three independent instances spanning at least a year.". - [The]DaveRoss 03:27, 6 April 2008 (UTC)Reply
No, it is in WT:CFI#Attestation: "Usage in permanently recorded media, conveying meaning, in at least three independent instances spanning at least a year." The RFV text is quoting CFI. This being one of four alternatives, and the least subjective. Robert Ullmann 13:17, 6 April 2008 (UTC)Reply
To which the ridiculous grade-school inventions have always been held to the harshest interpretation of it. --Connel MacKenzie 19:50, 6 April 2008 (UTC) And the obsolete meaning should be tagged as such. --Connel MacKenzie 20:01, 6 April 2008 (UTC)Reply



Connel- quick question. In the edit history, you added an image and added "candidate for POTY". What is POTY? sewnmouthsecret 20:14, 4 April 2008 (UTC)Reply

commons:COM:POTY.  :-)   --Connel MacKenzie 05:37, 5 April 2008 (UTC)Reply
Thanks! I've never even looked there before. sewnmouthsecret 03:13, 8 April 2008 (UTC)Reply