User talk:Sarri.greek

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Aναλόγιο μουσικής, αναγνωστήριο[edit]

Please can you help with this term (αναλόγιο μουσικής (analógio mousikís)). Would you say that the plural is αναλόγια μουσικής (analógia mousikís) or αναλόγια μουσικών (analógia mousikón) (or both) ? In English the second of these would be incorrect since music does not have a plural form, so we would say "Have you got the music?" meaning have you brought the score or scores (score = sheet music = παρτιτούρες)

Thanks again — Saltmarsh. 06:22, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
sarri.greek 171012. αναλόγιο (μουσικής). plural: αναλόγια (μουσικής)
1) αναλόγιο = a stand or furniture for reading books or music scores. (cf. the greekpage: 'stand for reading'). the 'μουσικής' explanation, is not used necessarily, only implied. Musicians say: give me the αναλόγιο. So, plural would be αναλόγια (μουσικής) = αναλόγια for music. Αναλόγια μουσικών is not a plural. It just means: the αναλόγια used by many musicians. I do not think that a separate page would be needed for the expression 'αναλόγιο μουσικής' at all. You may mention the plural within the definition 2 (pl: αναλόγια μουσικής)? By the way. The IPA for analogio is /anaˈlojio/ [as in dict.Inst.Triantaf.] I am checking the greekpage now. They do not have your inflection. Shouldn't they?
1b) yes the expression Have you got the music? in gre: Έχεις τη μουσική? would also mean: Do you have the score?
2) Ooops. I just read the αναγνωστήρι page. Careful: there is NO word 'αναγνωστήρι'. Only 'αναγνωστήριο' (gre.anc: ἀναγνωστήριον) plurals for BOTH: αναγνωστήρια = room for reading (e.g. in libraries, schools, etc).
3) DO you want me to copy for you verbatim the lemmata from Babiniotis and from Institute.Triantafyllidis dictionaries? I have them here, next to me, (I presume, you have them too) but I can do such work for you (typing) to save your valid time. I do not know how to edit things in Wiktionary as you do, but at least, I can save you from typing. I can email them to you. And anything else you need. Love, Katerina.Sarri.greek (talk) 18:27, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
1) thanks - I've annotated the entry
2) Babiniotis doesn't have 'αναγνωστήρι' but it is in my small Oxford dictionary (labelled εκκλ ie church) and also on Πύλη ατ here.
3) Please have a bash at doing an entry - just a few to start with. Things can always be re-edited or even deleted!
Saltmarsh. 06:23, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
sarri.greek 171018 answering on 2: You are so right! I found it in two old dictionaries of the 1930s. It is mediaeval ecclesiastical from Koine. Babiniotis does not have it because it is not used in modern greek. Your Oxford source is great. For the ears of a contemporary greek it sound funny... something like σκαλιστήρι or some other instrument. As for 3: I presume there are rules on what sources should be used, what words are missing, etc. Although i can write .htm pages, I dare not touch the templates.
When browsing, I check the eng-page, the greek-page and sometimes the german-page. I do not understand why pages differ. I would expect a coordination. Also, the sources cited as in the pages for gre.ancient. Good night! sarri.greek (talk) 02:17, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
sarri again. Good morning! I had your recommended 'bash' with αντικλεπτικός. No idea how to write the links... and the IPA, I did it as I usually write it. but system says there's something wrong with it. sarri.greek (talk) 05:55, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

Babel: about Babel[edit]

from sarri.greek. 2017.11.02. Thank you, for your concern, for adding Babel to my userpage, but: Why have i erased the Babel feature?

  1. i speak only two languages. my native is obvious from my username. If i spoke more than three languages, i would have used it.
  2. probably Babel creates a notice on who-speaks-what lists, but at the moment, i am reading and learning, so, i do not wish to expose myself more.
  3. from the first day i came as a visitor to wiktionaries, i found Babel a bit weird... I mean, these little phrases... :) lol Could be simpler: el = lang:greek: native / eng: lang:english, good. etc.

Greek, ancient to modern[edit]

sarri.greek 2017.11.09. (see COMMENTS at end)
This is a revision of some of my thoughts, as a greek newcomer in wiktionary. My wise mentor Saltmarsh, pointed out that it was too long, so here are my points.
Observations on the Division of Greek in Wiktionaries [or other languages].
--I would like the wiktionary wording 'Greek' to become: 'Greek Modern'.
--I would like the two pages for ONE word of gre.anc. and gre.mod. to be linked prominently, or in disambiguation-page (not just the common 'See also: xxx' at top of page, or at Descendants which is somewhere at the bottom of the page).
--Here is why:

  • I fully understand the wiktionary-policy of creating separate pages for different scipts of words. (sciptform=entry=page) But:

1. the word Greek in indexing

  • I.S.O. has indexed/named languages with criterion: xx first letters of endonym.
  • But in dictionaries? especially the ones for an international audience?
  • With the word 'greek' i understand all greek languages. The word chinese, for all Chinese languages.
e.g. difficulty in finding chinese bu when looking for e.g. bu#mandarin
in Lists for many languges: ancient greek is under A, not G, so far away from her child, Greek, Or Greek (Modern) from its mother Ancient Greek.

2. greek with or without diacritics in wiktionary

  • In greek, polytonic script is used for Ancient Greek, but also was used for all greek until 1982. The change to the more simple monotonic did not reflect any change in pronunciation or grammar, and definately not in language.
  • in wiktionary they split in 2 languages. But they are one!
I need ὁδός and οδός to be one: they are both 'greek'. It would be ideal for me to have them in the same page... Unlike répertoire, repertoire and Repertoire 3 scripts-3 languages. [Here too, I'd like REPERTOIRE page with lnks].
e.g. My surname is Σαρρή. My grandmother who was not an ancient greek signed Σαῤῥῆ, I signed until 1982 Σαρρῆ, and now I sign Σαρρή. Same language. Same script. Different diacritics. Now, if you make an entry on me, would you split me in two pages?
  • true, there are words that do NOT appear in Modern Greek, but only in Ancient. They few that did not survive.
e.g. ἄρουρα@perseus This belongs to Anc.Greek exclusively.

about katharevousa

  • The word άεροπλανοφόρον is Kathareuousa only, because there were no airplanes in ancient greece. Separate entry. And αεροπλανοφόρο is the Mod.Greek entry.
  • A today's (2017) greek under the age of 40, has NEVER been exposed to katharevousa. By birth we speak modern greek and at schools we also learn ancient (mostly attic version). When we use a casus dativus, we do not think of katharevousa at all. Most, use an ancient expression without realizing it. Others, just swap to ancient consciously.

- - - - - - - -


by sarri:

And, after so long, I found this: Category:Hellenic_languages Why isn't the parent language easily visible from the pages, accessible to a visitor? to an editor? So, no split for greek (grc) and el after all. It's just the word 'greek' for us greeks, = Hellenic. We don't have two words (well, we do: we speak τη γραικική, τα ρωμαίικα). But the anglophones use the linguistics-terms for the families of languages. 5 November 2017, rev sarri.greek (talk) 07:05, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

by Saltmash (comments for the previous LONG article): sic:

  • You have said a quite lot above - so I may miss some points. It might be better in future to split them up under separate wikitext headings.
(1a) Language headings - modern Greek is called "Greek" in the same way that modern English is called "English" and Mediaeval/Middle English is called "Middle English" here (see "bake" which comes in both languages. (If you haven't already done it - you can go some way towards getting things on the same screen by clicking "Enable Tabbed Languages" on your preferences page under "Preferences/Gadgets/User interface gadgets".)
(1b) I assume that the language(s) are split as they are because of the two fields of interest Ancient (=Classics & Bible studies) and the Rest. So the break point isn't exactly arbitrary. I am not the right person to try and get all Greek terms (A&M) under one heaading. Try the WT:BP - I try to avoid going there as discussions take too long!
(2) We have, or should have, have polytonic words in Greek (modern) - I am an offender who contributed towards their absence. Although we have words labelled as "Katharevousa" they are probably Modern "derived from Katharevousa".
Saltmarsh. 06:06, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
sarri to @Saltmarsh: Dear Mentor! thank you for your patience -again- with me. Of course, you are right in everything, and present things correctly. Ok I'll make a summary, its too long.
---WAW "Preferences/Gadgets/User interface gadgets/ enable tabbed" I would never have found it myself. Thank you. They should put this option somewere in the entries. I never touched Preferences, they are too complicated. Hmmm they list at bu every irrelevant languages under English, They are just giving a different layout of the page. They must TAB relevant languages-categories, and the rest, as they were normally, with the relevant tabbed. Cat:EngLang, Cat:OldEngLang, etc are under Cat:WestGermLanguages. Shouldn't there be a Wiktionary section-category 'Cat:English languagesssss' Don't bother to answer. It's just a rhetoric suggestion, probably impossible to be done.
---about (2) why not: Heading: Other scripts: /'Alternative Versions' is another thing/ Text: polytonic script Katharevousa: thewordNoLinkbutAnchored, Ancient Greek: wordLinked. Capital letters: WORDNOLINK nocasesensitiveforsearch. So, search ἑλληνικός (= ΕΛΛΗΝΙΚΟΣ) will direct to a disambiguation page (as in Wikipedia) with ἑλληνικός and ελληνικός. Or for bake: Heading: In Other English Languages: blabla. (Don't bother to answer :) I know, it is impossible.)
---Do you have the Babiniotis.1998 dict? I have the 1998a and the 1998b. I do not need both, I could send you the 1998b (there was some silly legal matter for a lemma, and they had to publish again). Good night mentor! sarri.greek (talk) 05:13, 9 November 2017 (UTC)
* (2) Introducing new headings is difficult (I mean long involved discussions and votes). However there are/should be links between ἑλληνικός and ελληνικός. Firstly at the top of each page will be a see also link (ελληνικός links to Ἑλληνικός and vice versa, and then to ἑλληνικός when it has been created). Also, where there are etymological connections, ἑλληνικός will/should have a ====Descendants==== heading link and the reverse of an ===Etymology=== section in ελληνικός. I hope that these go some way to answer the point.
* Other languages have "diglossic" problems: Norwegian (see hund and ku) has I think three currently spoken forms.
* Thanks for the offer - my Babiniotis is 2008.— Saltmarsh. 06:42, 9 November 2017 (UTC)
ok! @Saltmarsh: yes, again you are right. And I have shortened the article into a note, as it should be from the beginning. I don't want to take up your time. You are doing far more serious things, in Wiktionary :) Do you have the Christidis book? It's very good. I could you send you that one. sarri.greek (talk) 07:05, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

Plutarque, Vies parallèles[edit]

Merci, Sarri.greek, de votre petit mot. Un lien de remplacement a été fourni par un contributeur anonyme, était-ce vous ? Merci encore. --Zyephyrus (talk) 23:19, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

oui, c'est moi, sarri.grecque! j'ai cherché pour Vol.3 mais, rien... Seulelment la collection '6 Lives' traduit par Dreyden: Nicias et ONLY eng. pas de grec.anc. Pas de Pericles I'm afraid. Merci, Zef, votre links saved me a lot of time! sarri.greek (talk) 23:36, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

Terms for philologists[edit]

from sarri to @Erutuon:: Yes I have seen in en.wikt the terms contraction and for συντετμημένο: shortened (which avoids confusion with 'abbreviated-abbreviations'). Perhaps we should Request a list of all the terms officially used in en.wikt, el.wikt, etc. Thank you, πολύτροπε Eru! [This.mp3 is for you (from here).] sarri.greek (talk) 01:11, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

HLP: welcome + links[edit]

2017.07.08 by Saltmarsh: Welcome to Wiktionary

You also asked if help was available with editing - any of the Wiktionary editors will willingly give advice with editing. I don't read my email regularly and I'm usually editing on Wiktionary more frequently - so the best place to ask me is on my talk page (where you first raised your point).

  • You could start by creating a "sandbox" ie a page where you can try things out. Click on User:Sarri.greek/Sandbox (clicking on a red link gives you an opportunity to create that page). You can do what you like in this space without creating problems. You could start with creating a page for an adverb - perhaps the simplest lemma page.
    • Click on "edit" for an existing adverb and look at how it's formatted
    • Copy the text to your sandbox, and then change the relevant bits to give your new word.
    • When your happy with the way it looks, and if it hasn't already been created, you could add it by searching for it and then clicking "create it".

Some pages you might find helpful:

And remember you can always "edit" an existing page of any sort — look at how its done — and then exit using "cancel", leaving it unchanged. — Saltmarsh. 06:16, 8 July 2017 (UTC)

ADDED:2017.11. by Equinox as extra link-source:

Hello, welcome to Wiktionary, and thank you for your contributions so far.

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Again, welcome!

HLP: subpage: lab[edit]

I created a page for me I think I have opened by accident a new username? Ohh.. Need to erase? Help! sarri.greek (talk) 06:36, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

Γεια σας. Μην ανησυχείτε· it's not a new username. You've correctly used a slash, so it's automatically recognised as one of your subpages. Also, I'd suggest using the internal way of linking: [[blabla]]. It will be much cleaner.
Another thing: if you want to make sure that a user gets your message, you can use {{ping}}, which works like this: {{ping|Username}}. So {{ping|Barytonesis}} > @Barytonesis.
Last thing: for clean bullet lists, you can use "*". --Barytonesis (talk) 09:42, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

ahhhh thankkkk you, for all extra info. I promise i'll practice! sarri.greek (talk) 23:56, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

Hello. I see you're asking a lot of questions on your userpage; is it for you only, or do you want people to answer them? --Barytonesis (talk) 19:52, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

from sarri: :) Bary! you are 'οφθαλμός ος τα πάνθ' ορά' (an eye that watches everything). Thank you, I will first try to find out things for myself, and if not, then, i shall bother others, in the rooms. One thing though: i visit other lang-wiktionaries, and i get warm welcomes... i got one in arabic. Must i reply? sarri.greek (talk) 20:00, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

Nah, often the welcome is an automatically generated welcome message. I see nobody sent you one here, and you're asking about formatting etc., so I will include it below. Equinox 20:21, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

from sarri to Equinox: Thank you. Saltmarsh & Barytonensis have been helping me a lot. Your links below are useful. I am currently reading all that, and I need a month or two months to learn things in here. The help pages are not so great for people like me (who know only a bit of htm writing). If it's any use to the supervisors of this site, I can write a 'impressions of a newcomer' including what helped me and what bothered me. But I need more than a month.

Your "new user feedback" will be an interesting read, if you find time to write it. Our help pages are limited because Wiktionary is a much smaller project than Wikipedia and we have fewer users. We also have more difficult formatting, because our entries use a complicated structure, while Wikipedia's articles are more like essays. Equinox 20:53, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

Your userpages[edit]

You have been making lots and lots of edits to your userspace pages, and very little to actual entries. We admins have to manually mark every edit of yours as being okay, which is fine when it's actual content, but it is getting rather tiring to do so for endless edits to long "lab" pages. Please try to restrict your activity to what is actually useful for Wiktionary, and combine many edits in one by using the Preview feature. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 16:34, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

Ohhh dear! @Metaknowledge:. I have been marking them as non-important. I am trying to make a list of the commands. HELP is confusing me, I cannot find Template:xxx in the search box. I can only do the inflectional-types-pages. I don't think I can do anything else. But of course, I will stop. Sorry, didn't know I burdened you. sarri.greek (talk) 16:48, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

Greek Ancient: average user impressions[edit]

For @Erutuon: (who encouraged me to write this feedback), JohnC5, and the Ancient Greek Team: I have been reading your lemmata, modules and discussions with awe and great admiration. You are pursuing refined aspects of your discipline. Dialects, rare occurances etc. The general public -especially after the 1960s- know less and less about classic languages. So, your role here is crucial. Most of your visitors arrive at your pages through the etymon of words in other languages. In Greece, school students look up your inflection tables. My notes are for trivial matters. My gre.anc. is just what i learned at school, so, i can describe my impressions as an average user of wiktionary, in my case, an average hellenophone.
Why do i like your work?

  • Because Liddell-Scott is too complicated, has no inflection tables, it is made for philologists. (Has no abbreviations for sg f p xxx... and it takes me a long time to find out what century the writer Xxx.X.XXX is.)
  • your pages have it all-in-one: Etymo, IPA, tables, sources.

'All' but which 'all':

  • When i logged in, and realized that non-changeable elements were automatic, I confess, i panicked. We neeed to TRUST the tiniest info. (Guaranteed from the sources. Info can not override the sources.)

Things i would like:


  • Problem with not-very-ancient words. I would start with a lang-determiner: e.g. Hellenistic Koine. I need to know at what historical time the word appears. (By the way, 'Koine' alone, i dont know how many people know the term.)
    There is a code for "Koine Greek", grc-koi, that can be used in templates such as {{derived}}, {{inherited}}, {{borrowed}}, {{cognate}}, {{noncognate}}, {{descendant}}. Look in Module:etymology_languages/data for other Greek dialect codes that can be used in those templates. They can't be used in other etymology or linking templates, such as {{affix}}, or {{l}} or {{m}}, however. — Eru·tuon 01:44, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
Yes @Erutuon:, thank you, but people like me cannot do etymologies. I am not an expert. I cannot take such a responsibility. Unless I am to COPY info from some Dict designated by you. But I can proofread; check perseus and if I see New Testament, Lucian, Hippoc, etc. I will leave messages.
  • As a greek, I would love to see a second line at the etymo for the future of the word, not just its past: What happened to it? Did it survive in Modern Greek. (is Etymology only a study of the past?. Of course, non hellenophones would not be interested.) e.g.
    < xxx + xxx < PIE xxx
    > Byzantine xxx > Kath xxx > Mod xxx. Also see Descendants.
    • This is not the intent of this section. That is the purpose of the Descendants heading. —*i̯óh₁nC[5] 11:02, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
      • Yes @JohnC5:. As a non-anglophone user, I had no idea that greek would be in there. as in βούτυρον. Never mind. Was just a thought.


  • Hellenistic words do not have a 5th century Attic pronunciation. A parameter can by added. (I can do all this repetitive work for you if you wish.)
    There is a parameter to determine at which period transcriptions will start. See Template:grc-IPA/documentation § Parameters. You can certainly add period parameters; it would be appreciated. We only added the feature recently and haven't had time to make use of it. — Eru·tuon 20:37, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
OK @Erutuon: I'll start checking words at Cat.AncGreLemm If perseus says Hellenistic I ll add koi1. If I am doubtful I ll leave a message at lemma's Talk. sarri.greek (talk) 21:04, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
Hmm, it might be better to create a thread in Module:grc-pronunciation with a list of words that you have doubts about. We will not necessarily notice your messages on the talk pages of the entries. — Eru·tuon 01:50, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
@Erutuon: It s not just greek. Visitors will not know Module pages. If they see mistake, the put note at Talk page. Perhaps put an auto alert in there.
  • Labels of phases - links to wikipedia: shouldn't they correspond? I would prefer: 5th BCE Attic. 1st BCE Koine. 4th CE Koine 10th CE Byzantine 15th CE Byzantine. (The terms Egyptian and Constantinopoletan may be δόκιμοι for an expert, but confused me. I thought it meant Coptic, and some αττικίζουσα from Const.). Also, I would prefer BCE and CE.
    I think there is a way to format BC and AD so that they can be automatically changed to BCE and CE by JavaScript depending on a setting in Preferences. I will look into that. — Eru·tuon 20:37, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
    Actually, the other way around: BCE or CE to BC or AD. The gadget is found in Wiktionary:Per-browser_preferences. — Eru·tuon 20:48, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
Yes, thank you @Erutuon:, I though I saw shomewhere that BCE CE is the standard. sarri.greek (talk) 21:04, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
Erutuon is being a bit unclear; the standard here is to use the templates {{BCE}} and {{CE}}, which add a bit of formatting and allow people to configure their own preferences. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 21:18, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
@Metaknowledge: Thanks; I had forgotten about those templates, I was simply thinking of the labels used in Module:zh-usex/data. — Eru·tuon 22:07, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
  • I would like the word 'reconstructed' somewhere. IPAkey reconstructed: ....
    • That's not a question for just Ancient Greek. We tend not to mark pronunciations for dead languages as "reconstructed". This would have to be brought up on a wider scale. —*i̯óh₁nC[5] 11:02, 1 December 2017 (UTC)


  • You have syllabication, which is great. It is weird that wiktionary puts hyphenation under pronunciation. Syllabication, i understand, is for phoneticians, hyphenation, which is a grammatical and typographic gadget, should be somewhere else? (Users need it for writing their texts. Well, in modern greek it is useful.)
    • Regardless of where the hyphenation should go (this again is not the concern of only AG), hyphenation is a modern editorial convention. We do not and should not provide them at all for AG as there is no such tradition. —*i̯óh₁nC[5] 11:02, 1 December 2017 (UTC)


  • Quotations are in the sources, no need here. But would be nice to choose the MOST famous one, a brief one, as EXAMPLE. The one that students of gre. lang or history would encounter.


  • titlebar: We really need '(Attic)' at all tables? Isn't it standard and presented in all grammar books? The footnote does not suffice? Koine or middletime words are inflected in the same pattern. If a table is for a specific dialect, or an exception, then fine, I would like its name at the titlebar as in your ἡμεῖς, μνημεῖον tables!
    • Only recently we added the "(Attic)" to the default tables, the tables generated when a dialect (|dial=) is not given. (Also until recently, contracted nouns like πάθος showed both contracted and uncontracted forms, without any indication of which dialect they belong to. The uncontracted forms were, I think, the hypothetical forms that would have yielded the Attic forms, meaning that some of the uncontracted forms, like *ἀλήθεε, were probably not attested in any dialect.) I have been in favor of explicitly saying in which dialect a word or inflected form is used, even though most readers of Wiktionary will only be interested in Attic.
    • I am uncertain: on the one hand, most people learn Attic (or Koine, which is pretty much identical) and will expect an unmarked table to be Attic; on the other, it is potentially misleading not to indicate at all which dialect the forms come from, when there are so many dialects, and someone might assume, incorrectly, that, because no dialect is indicated, the table somehow includes the forms of dialects, and that the same forms will be seen in Herodotus, Homer, or Pindar. So I think the dialect should be explicitly indicated somewhere in the declension table: if not in the title, then in the notes. That way there is no room for confusion. It might also be helpful to have a page that lists the dialects, the writers who use them, and the regions and time periods in which the dialects used or appeared in inscriptions. — Eru·tuon 22:33, 16 December 2017 (UTC)
Ok @Erutuon: you persuaded me, Attic at titlebar. I know how much you love your ionic etas and your doric alphas. And you love uncontracted types, as one loves Bach on the clavichord, rather than on a Steinway. But if sincere, shouldn't the etymology state: Attic, also Koine? and mediaeval? and katharevousa?. I have seen in tables, uncontracted+contructed together, or, root+ending=grammatical type (χαρίεντ-ς=χαρίεις) not as presentation of dialects, but as an explanation of the production from the root. The root. I need the root. As for πάθος, i knew gen. πάθους@perseus and i dont' find it in the table. I would image titlabar:
πάθος , -εος/-ους. Third Decl. Attic. root: πάθεσ-. And, then 2 tables: Uncontracted example. Contracted in Attic, or 1 table with both, what ever. If you like, add tables for dialects, or add notes for some dialectal types. I like that. But don't worry too much. Historical Grammars are for you, happy few. For the curious reader there's always Liddell-Scott for further exploring. In the future, wiktionary will probably have lemmata for EVERY written word.
Your idea of page with authors+dialect+century is excellent. You cannot image how stupid i feel in Lidd-Sc when i try to find out what century is an abbreviated author in: Koine? late hellenistic? early Byz? I have to go to wikipedia, check dates. Takes me hours. Already Sunday here, sarri.greek (talk) 00:01, 17 December 2017 (UTC)
When Koine and Byzantine have the same forms as Attic, I think all three dialects should be mentioned in the title of the declension table (if that's what you're getting at). It would be dumb to have three different tables for Attic, Koine, and Byzantine if the forms are identical. The module does not allow this yet.
I know that Koine almost always has the same endings as Attic, but I don't know much about Medieval (Byzantine). (There are words that Koine has different forms of – γλῶττα, γλῶσσα; λεώς, λᾱός, but that should not be a problem.)
At the moment, the module doesn't specify any non-default forms for Koine or Byzantine, so I have to figure out if that leads to any forms being incorrect or incomplete. — Eru·tuon 01:44, 20 December 2017 (UTC)

tables, more[edit]

  • titlebar: catch-word for infl. model: I like them for mnemonic reasons. e.g. very common characteristic words. If possible, same catchword for Anc and Modern. Nice to juxtapose.
  • titlebar: First Decl of xxxx. (It has a second one too??). Perhaps:
    xxxxx, -xx. Root xxxx-. First Decl. as in 'catchword' (Dialect if necessary).
    no need for transcription at titlebar, it is in the table. takes too much space
  • ROOTS, i would love to see the roots at top of tables. Strong and weak. With longa/brevis.
  • adj: the LINE: Derived Forms. Weird. First box has adverb. Second box has compar. but not of the adverb. And the comp/super are not inflected anyway. I would rather NOT have this line at all in this table. Why not a separate placing in the page, immediately visible to the user: adj. degrees, and link to the adverb.
    • The comparative and superlative adjectives are inflected? I can't tell what your argument is here? —*i̯óh₁nC[5] 11:02, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
      • E.g. καλός καλώς (first box) and then καλλίων[-ον] and then κάλλιστος[-η-ον]. I just don't love the placing. I cant find infl for comp/sup The degr. of adv. ? κάλλιον κάλλιστα? Im just saying idont love the look. That's all. sarri.greek (talk) 16:10, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
  • ATTESTATION: If a table includes many words that are more a grammatical exercise rather than real, attested words, maybe you could use () or grey colour or something? that could be added after the automatic table is done? (The non-existant words should not be lemmatized) (LSJ is claimed as source, and if @perseus does not give it, how can it be there? This is violation of source. In my old days, with NO computers, we had to consult all these heavy volumes... Today, it is done instantly. I always check the infl.types, and i keep a note of FOUND/NOT FOUND.)
    • Lexicographic practice in Latin and Greek has always been to lemmatize the nominative singular if predictable, even if unattested. I would be nice to mark attestation somehow, but that might be beyond the immediate scope of this project. —*i̯óh₁nC[5] 11:02, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
      • Yes of course you are right. There is always the source LiddScott if someone wants to check. sarri.greek (talk) 16:10, 1 December 2017 (UTC)


  • longae/breves: some tables have them, others do not. What's the policy? If i can see the root with these diacritics, i don't need them, ίνα μη καταχαράσσωνται οι πίνακες.
    It was decided a while ago that we would mark all ambiguous vowels, rather than only marking long vowels and leaving short vowels unmarked, or only marking length when there is no other accent on the vowel. (It's fine to leave ambiguous vowels unmarked if you don't know the length, or you just don't want to bother with it.) That way, macron means long, breve means short, and no length mark means "unknown". For the explanation of the policy, see Wiktionary:About Ancient Greek § Diacritics and accentuation. However, there are still a lot of unmarked ambiguous vowels.
    Unfortunately, there aren't many fonts that display, for instance, breve and smooth breathing and acute on a single letter (ᾰ̓́νθρωπος) correctly. Usually the acute is placed above the breathing, which looks stupid. Evidently most font makers aren't aware that this combination of diacritics is used, so they do not program them into the correct positions (or whatever it is that font makers do to make diacritics display well). There is one, New Athena Unicode, described in Wiktionary:About Ancient Greek § Fonts and display. It's the first font listed for "polytonic" in MediaWiki:Common.css, so it will be used if you have it. (It's still not perfect. The diacritics are kind of close together.)
    To enter combinations of diacritics (or to add macrons or breves), you can use {{chars}}. — Eru·tuon 01:15, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
  • (ν) at end of types, often breaks from line. Needs a no-break gadget.
  • FONT SIZE problem, brevis/longa+accent: to me, and old people in general, very difficult to see, even at 150%. I know you cannot change fonts now. Still. Perhaps if letters were spaced a little wider they could be clearer.
  • FONTS for syllabaries, old scripts, are little squares at my computer. I would like an extra image-representation.
    • You can download fonts for these. It would be complicated to add image representations for Unicode characters into our current system of linking between entries. For Linear B, if that is what you are thinking of, there is a page of fonts. There are also lists of fonts for many scripts in MediaWiki:Common.css. You can search for the script that is displaying as boxes and find fonts for that script. If you download one of the fonts in the list, it will automatically be used throughout Wiktionary (except in the mobile version of the site). To find scripts used by a particular language, you can go to the language's category page and look at the table of information: for instance, Category:Ancient Greek language. — Eru·tuon 01:15, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
  • LARGE crowded TABLES (as in verbs): when i save them at my computer, I add grey BORDERS to help my eyes fix at each box. (I wish this table@pyli had borders too.)
  • DUAL ooωω how i hate dual :) I know, good grammars present it between sing and pl. But i neeed to see sing-pl side by side. By the way: are all duals attested?
    • Definitely not. The dual was moribund even in Homeric Greek. —*i̯óh₁nC[5] 11:02, 1 December 2017 (UTC)


  • when i type e.g. μνημείο, or even μνημείον (i dont have poly fonts at my computer), i do NOT get your μνημεῖον. Could you do your magic tricks and force search engines to include you?
    • We have discussed before but not implemented SEO (Search Engine Optimization). —*i̯óh₁nC[5] 11:02, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
      • This is a slightly different problem than the MediaWiki SEO addressed earlier. A collapsed table such as Informal Typographical Variants, perhaps under Alternative Forms, would address both. I only half-support such clutter, but it may increases traffic and contribution volume. Inflected typographical variants would likely require non-lemma pages. Isomorphyc (talk) 15:44, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
    • The solution in this case is to add the Modern Greek descendant to the entry. μνημείο was added to the descendants list of μνημεῖον, and now μνημεῖον shows up if you search Wiktionary μνημείο.


Would you like me to make pages for inflectional types? It's the only thing i can do confidently. If you provide a standard style for all declinabilia, I can copy paste (usually i visit gre.mod. words lacking their ancient-script-word and vice vesa).
P.S. and what a pity; all this work cannot be transferred horizontally to other wiktionaries?
σφῷν ὀφθαλμοῖν μόνον, sarri.greek (talk) 19:30, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

Thanks @Erutuon: You are so fast... sarri.greek (talk) 20:43, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

Two etymologies[edit]

Hi - thanks for taking on some work. When there are more than one etymologies the subsequent headings - noun/declension/etc each need to be raised by one level (ie noun 3>4, declension 4>5, related 4>5, and so on. — Saltmarsh. 19:24, 3 December 2017 (UTC)

Hey, @Saltmarsh:, I did do it, ατ πυρά, I think. At lease when I wrote them at Notepad. Then I erased it, then I made changes, and then I copied again but forgot to re-re do. OK thanks. I assure you I understand this :) Thank you sarri.greek (talk) 01:08, 4 December 2017 (UTC)

Alternative forms[edit]

Γεια — you asked whether some "Alternative forms" were mislabelled. Would you like to point me at some examples. Should they (for example) be "Synonyms", or something else? — Saltmarsh. 12:50, 9 December 2017 (UTC)

Probably, dear @Saltmarsh:, it is because i'm not an anglophone. My understanding of the english word alternative was only partial. In my mind alternative was the same as interchangeable. But I can see that alternative is broader. Still. I feel readers must be warned about the 'alternative' uses of a word being rare, or non-standard. Probably a label? qualifier? would clear up things. Yes, i would rather list them under synonyms. And in infl.tables a parenthesis?
--alternative words (their meaning): non-identical senses. e.g. broader sense. of plural: τα άλευρα, and rare sing άλευρο not interchangeable to αλεύρι (cf. my notes). Or, socio-nuances: We cannot say 'This γέρος needs assistance' in front of the old man. It is impolite. We will say 'this 'ηλικιωμένος κύριος' needs assistance'. And certainly not γριά. And παλιός is not for people (compare fre. ancien, vieux)
  • I've ammended the γερός/παλιός entries, you might like to amend if necessary.
  • With regards to άλευρο and αλεύρι: both my little λεξικό τσέπης and Μπαμπινιώτη have "άλευρο βλ. αλεύρι" - just that - Μπάμπι. doesn't mention "τα άλευρα", from what you say I presume you say that it means "flours" (in general — the products of milling) have I understood you correctly ? Google also shows me pictures of "batter" (flour/water + posibly egg/milk) is that another meaning? And what about "η αλευριά" = batter? — Saltmarsh. 06:50, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
--alternative forms/gramm.types in tables: e.g. τρώω has a very 'anarchic' behaviour. τρώγω ancient, lends SOME of its grammatical types to modern greek. Not all. (DSMG, but i need to check further). Imperat.΄τρώγε!' is standard,'εσύ τρώγεις' i have never heard, 'τρώγω' i have heard, but rarely. So the conjugation table cannot include all the τρώγ- types. The evasive schoolbook says it is 'idiocliton' (i.e. has a mind of its own). Like the doctors, who say 'you have an 'idiopathy', meaning 'I dont now what s wrong with you'.
As i go through your precious model pages (I'm still at A from αγγούρι-κορίτσι) I'll keep some notes. Have a nice weekend:) sarri.greek (talk) 00:45, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
Thank you @Saltmarsh: I read all your comments. Need to study each lemma. I got some notes on αβγό. What I suggested at γέρος & παλιός , (thanks for your thanks) you may use ad libitum. I need to check one by one μπύρα (this is a transcr-offoreignword matter, αδελφός (general rule: when using an ancient form, is is always more official, posh, and the demotic type is more colloquial). άλευρα @DSMG(ux: Maria, bring me the αλεύρι, I want to make a cake; all the brands of the Greek άλευρα-industry are very good, they make really fine αλεύρια.) I don't cook much, so I don't know αλευριά pronounced with diphthong [a.le.`vria], but I know the [a.le.vri.`a] which is like μουσταλευριά. Δουλειά (job) -εργασία (job) δουλεία (slavery) I'll check and send you notes. sarri.greek (talk) 06:19, 12 December 2017 (UTC)
Thanks — my translation of the note in αβγό would have have been slow (if I had done it) and I am always worried that I have not understood nuances in any technical discussion. I will put a note with αβγό — please feel free (as you must always be) to amend (a wiki-principle). — Saltmarsh. 07:14, 12 December 2017 (UTC)
Stop being modest. Well, MY problem is, that I am not a native eng-speaker, so I never publish any English text. It takes me long to transl. the u.xamples for instance. And as you see, I never make a defin/trans for any word, even translate DSMG examples. I always feel I could be wrong, or be betrayed as non-anglphn. So... you add eng nuances, i'll add the greek, bingo! sarri.greek (talk) 07:32, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

Verbs - inflection tables[edit]

Given the liability (or probability) that non-existent or erroneous forms may be displayed in the conjugation tables I am revisiting the subject. The current templates are overcomplicated - I wrote them, but it would take almost as long to amend them as to start again, and they are not easy to use. I would seek to start again with simpler tables displaying a greatly reduced number of forms.

  • Before anything else in considered, which one-word forms should be omitted? It is noticeable that the Βικιλεξικό (see el:δίνω) only displays a second form for the imperfect and aorist tenses - would this be sensible? Using the National Greek Thesaurus statistics I show some frequencies (temporarily) at User:Saltmarsh/Sandbox. — Saltmarsh. 07:24, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
Τιτάνιο έργο! @Saltmarsh: Tables in grammars have so many comments under them. How can you squeeze these notes in a table? Βικιλεξικό is economical. I always take a look. But i know you wish to cover all possible types, thouroughly. ---Your survey at ΕΘΕΓ is great (I didnt know it; thank you), but you should not exhaust yourself. The reason why you are worried about rare types is because someone might be looking them up. ---I would check Holton & your well informed eng. grammars, but i would follow what the average greek consults when in doubt: the official schoolbook #check λύω and triantabyllidis tables. I can send you the comments under the verb λύνω at the schoolbook mot à mot; here are some points:
1. The addition of ε ending: (at -ουν -ουνε -αν -ανε) is given as parenthesis in both schoolbook & at Triantafyllidis tables. -ουν(ε) -αν(ε) Comment schoolbook: The first type [ουν] is frequently used in written λόγος, mainly in 'conforming to type' or neutral style. The second [ουνε] is very frequent in spoken λόγος and in children's literature. It's no big deal. I use both. I noticed that the wikt.ancient greek tables use a parenthesis for euphonic (ν) e.g. λύουσι(ν).
2. on the αύξηση έ of past tenses: with or without: έλυναν / λύναν(ε), έλυσαν / λύσαν(ε). Comment.schoolbook: WITH έ frequently used in written λόγος, mainly in 'conforming to type' or neutral style. The second [λύναν(ε)] is very frequent in spoken λόγος and in children's literature. There could be a little note ^colloquial or something like that.
3. on the -ουμε / -ομε plurals: these are really different. Comment schoolbook: very rare in speech, and more by speakers from southern Greece. Trianaf.tables put parenthesis -at the wrong place, i think-: κλειδώνο(υ)με when they should: κλειδών-ουμε(-ομε). My note: any type resembling/copying the corresponding ancient type is either posh or ironic. There could be a note ^^rare. Or you can put the type in {λύνομε}. Or i see now your πολύς with nice little notes.
4. The other voice? λύνω+λύνομαι, γράφω γράφομαι... Usually they are together in the same table.
5. For template of simplest verb, i would not choose a verb which belongs at the comments section e.g. with root ending in consonants that behave in a special way e.g. γράφ-σ-ω > γράψω. γραφ-μένος > γραμμένος. Or δίνω which has flactuating-roots, and comes from δίδωμι complicating things. I like e.g. λύνω: short, smooth, no suprises. (λύν-σ-ω=λύσω easier)
6. I love your vertical tables, it's what's we are mostly used to. But then, the corresponing ancient table is horizontal.. Doesn't matter what your choose.
P.S. I got some αδελφός notes and questions about -πουλος, i am not sure where to send them? (I sent a message). Oh Salt! making all these tables, is too hard. If there's anything i can do for you... Like, reading word-lists for each table. Good night. sarri.greek (talk) 21:39, 16 December 2017 (UTC) Just remembered: Imperatives are also done periphrastically λύσε = να λύσεις etc. And.. is the negating μη θεωρήσετε! μή λύσεις! inluced in your eng.grammars. sarri.greek (talk) 21:48, 16 December 2017 (UTC)
Hi, a quick response to some of your points above (leaving aside possible comments about particular forms until later):
1, 2. I have put some ideas at User:Saltmarsh/Sandbox - leaving out the dot (with "tooltip" link to transliteration). Transliteration is liked wherever possible - but in tables they cause problems, and I don't thin that "tooltips" work with tablets and phones. I think T3 is my favoured alternative, but i have no fixed ideas.
Rare forms could be omitted from the table but still exist in the dictionary as "Alternative forms"
3. Holten et al have "-ομε" ... sometimes found in formal use and in some regional Greek"
4. Passive forms where omitted from the original tables until I was committed to the existing ones. They can be included in the "new" ones.
An incomplete answer - more to follow if necessary. — Saltmarsh. 19:22, 18 December 2017 (UTC)
Yes @Saltmarsh: vertical is nice. Your colours are very helpful to the eye. __Rare types yes in table, exotic no. (λύομε=rare. exotic:λυνόσαντε=my father's village in the 1930s) __T3, nice but: cannot have all of a sudden stem+suffix (Some tables do it columnary for all types). __You have to decide: how do i signal rares&formals? how do i signal optionals? The question will reappear in all kinds of tables.
1) standard+(rare)note standard(optional)note λύουμε (λύομε)1 έλυναν λύναν(ε)2
Or 2) standard+rarenote standard(opt)note λύουμε λύομε2. έλυναν λύναν(ε)2. note1: rare. note2: (optional).
The (ε) is quasi euphonic to λύναν. Cannot have sequence T1/T2 έλυναν λύνανε λύναν. The only problem with the small (ε) parenthesis, is that it sometimes breaks off the line. I cannot find non-breaking(). I hope these magic templates are amenable is the word? to future tiny differentiations. Notes in this anarchic microcosmos are unavoidable. __As for transliteration for mod.greek, i hate it. When i visited arabic, Turkish, unknown to me, i thought it was the pronunciation. Translit is useless if i cannot say the word. __Don't read the notes I've sent you yet. You have too much να λύσετε, dear Salt. Good night sarri.greek (talk) 02:52, 19 December 2017 (UTC)
New T2 might fulfil. Some notes can always be put on the forms entry in Wikt - rather than in the table. — Saltmarsh. 07:14, 19 December 2017 (UTC)
Replaced by newer T1, now with passive forms. Any comments on the general layout will be gratefully received. Aside from typos, are there any forms which have no business being there? Thank you — Saltmarsh. 16:49, 20 December 2017 (UTC)
It is GREAT @Saltmarsh:. I love it. Ι know you also add at dependent (+να/μη/θα). And, also there is the λυμένο (as in έχω λυμένο), not λυνμένο. The style is great. sarri.greek (talk) 18:01, 20 December 2017 (UTC)


Χαίρομαι που γύρισες! Καλή χρονιά.

ΥΓ. Μπορεί "χαιρετίσματα" να χρησιμοποιείται ως επιφώνημα ("Χαιρετίσματα!"); Προσπαθώ να μεταφράσω best wishes στα ελληνικά.--Per utramque cavernam (talk) 15:48, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

Ωχ, ξέχνησα >>ξέχασα<< να αναφέρω πως είμαι User:Barytonesis! --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 15:52, 5 January 2018 (UTC)
2018 wishes @Barytonesis:! No, χαιρετίσματα is not 'best wishes'. There is no literal equivalent. Ευχές για... τον καινούριο χρόνο. or in letters/more formal: Τις καλύτερες/θερμές/θερμότερες ευχές (μου/μας) για... And what's this name now? You will move to latin? I seek you here, I seek you there, and cannot find you anywhere. Bary, I was thinking of your next name. I've got a good one. sarri.greek (talk) 23:53, 5 January 2018 (UTC)
Πω πω! Συγνώμη, δεν μιλάω ελληνικά αρκετά συχνά και ξεχνάω οτιδήποτε έμαθα...
No, I'll keep working on Greek, it's just that I like to change usernames from time to time.
Ποια είναι η πρότασή σου; Περίεργος είμαι. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 21:15, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
Your greek is excellent @Barytonesis: Do i need to reply at another name? O, don't be some other name. Shakespeare was wrong. rose and τριαντάφυλλο are completely different. One more antimetathesis! δωράκινο/δοράκινο (Koine/Byz) - ροδάκινο = peach (i am trying this). And you have ήμερος - ήρεμος = tamed - calm at you pairs? As for the name...I had a greek deity in mind. It could become your final name, one day/Θα μπορούσε να γίνει κάποτε το τελικό όνομά σας. Το όνομά του αρχίζει από Πρ. But, i understand, there are many more names you will acquire until then. sarri.greek (talk) 21:55, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

Verb - tables (2)[edit]

I think I might be in danger of over complicating things. Please can you comment - I'm thinking of:

1) having just one perfect tense form - ie omitting alternatives (eg "είμαι γραμμένος")
2a) omitting alternative and two-word imperatives (eg "να γράφεσαι")
2b) giving the editor the choice leaving an imperative blank or replacing the default with an alternative
This is to simplify life for editors and make template maintenance easier. —

Saltmarsh. 07:59, 21 January 2018 (UTC)

Yes @Saltmarsh: I am looking now at your User:Saltmarsh/Sandbox which version? a.#1?
Yes - now under Template 1 - I'll deal with most the rest tomorrow. — Saltmarsh. 19:08, 21 January 2018 (UTC)
1) I think είμαι,ήμουν γραμμένος is essential
OK - will do — Saltmarsh. 19:08, 21 January 2018 (UTC)
2a) yes. A note at word Imperative (Imperative can also be expressed with subjunctive would be enough. And when blanks, one can ref to this note.
I really think that people should rely on the Greek Grammar for this - I'm anxious not to overload with too many notes. — Saltmarsh. 19:08, 21 January 2018 (UTC)
BUT you need to write singular 2, 3 and plural 2, 3 under 'imperative'. 2b) yes, one would need to add all sorts of little notes eventually.
I don't understand - don't we only have sing and plural (and only 2nd person)? — Saltmarsh. 19:08, 21 January 2018 (UTC)
Another thing to consider (well, for greeks) The terminology of eng. is SO different. Gerund (too latin). Dependent (you had a nice box for this one). I need to check more.
The "Deponent" is linked to the Glossary, I'll do the same for "Gerund" - I don't think we have an English term. If you want the Greek translations to be different, please list them (it takes me a "month of Sundays" to read Greek).— Saltmarsh. 19:08, 21 January 2018 (UTC)
I am looking at this new schoolgrammar for young children (10-12yo) by Philippaki, introducing for the first time in Greece the new modern terms. Also terms in Holton.Compr and with Iordanidu verbs. I also keep in mind the correspondence with the terms in ancient greek tables γράφω (gráphō). A user might need to find the equivalents.

Verb - tables 2+[edit]

to be dealt with later! — Saltmarsh. 19:08, 21 January 2018 (UTC)
Give me 2 or 3 versions to compare. I am thinking again of horizontal. Saves space for terms (longer words). Copypaste is possible only in horizontal (for users). Also, you may make different hide-show frames, splitting the hyper-table. Just a thought. Don't want to upset your line of word=work. sarri.greek (talk) 08:39, 21 January 2018 (UTC)
about 1) είμαι γραμμένος. On second thought, never mind with it (it can be described at lemma γραμμένος). There IS a slight difference with έχω γράψει. sarri.greek (talk) 09:29, 21 January 2018 (UTC)


Καλησπέρα. Φαίνεται να υπάρχει κάποια δυσλειτουργία στα interwiki. Δεν ξέρω αν παρατηρείται σε άλλα λήμματα. Πήγα να μετονομάσω και τα δύο λήμματα, μήπως κάποιο είναι με άλλον χαρακτήρα γραμμένο ή έχει κάποιο κενό στην αρχή ή στο τέλος. Δεν ήταν αυτό το πρόβλημα. Κι ούτε νομίζω πως επηρέασε η ανακατεύθυνση που είχε εισαγάγει κάποιος χρήστης. Δεν ξέρω τι άλλο να υποθέσω!… Όντως, μας ταλαιπωρούν αυτά τα αβγά! Svlioras (talk) 13:28, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

Απίστευτο @Svlioras:. Θα το βρούνε... (αν είδατε τη συζήτησή τους). No, I have not spotted any other problems with interwikis to el.wiktionary so far. I'll keep you posted, if something new comes up! Thanks. /Όχι, δεν έχω επισημάνει άλλα προβλήματα με interwiki προς το el.wiktionary έως τώρα. Θα σας κρατώ ενήμερο. Ευχαριστώ/ sarri.greek (talk) 13:46, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

New entries check[edit]

I've created a few Greek entries since yesterday. Could you check that everything is correct? --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 18:21, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

Impressive list. ΟΚ @Per utramque cavernam:X, I've got somewhere a bilingual glossary for phonetics but not so many. Are you using this one @greek-lang?
Interesting έκκροτος. It is a contemporary word made for phoneticians. There is ancient ἔκκρουσις etc. Babiniotis does NOT give an etymon. There is anc. verb ἐκκρούω = I strike out, I remove > έκκρουση (silencing of one of 2 vowels as in έκθλιψη, etc). And there is the anc.(and mod) noun κρότος (>verb κροτέω/κροτῶ) = I make a clack sound. Source.Hofmann. (Both κρ- elements are ηχοpoetic (eng onomatopoetic?) Source.NotSoGreat.) But for your plosives, you need κρότος. Ι I'll come back to you. sarri.greek (talk) 18:43, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

Conjugation tables[edit]

  • The progress to date can be seen at User:Saltmarsh/Sandbox - comments welcome.
  • I've mentally noted your comments about "αλυκή", "salt marsh" etc. Looking at views of Missolonghi and so on I thought "those aren't salt marshes". I then realised our tides are larger than yours. Our sea level rises and falls in my bit of England by about 5 metres twice a day - so of course things look totally different here! — Saltmarsh. 07:25, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

Dear @Saltmarsh: (tides, or no tides -as in Mediterranea-, the άλας is what matters in life!), looking at your verb-Sandbox:

  1. I like your new structure: Present-Past-Future (vertical) & Active + Mediopassive or passive (horizontally)
  2. yes, your compound imperatives are Great (εμπνέω, διευρύνω -tricky ones-, παραλείπω, ανασταίνω, αναδιοργανώνω)
  3. subjunctive is supposed to be over Imperative? (Sorry, the other day, i confused 2nd 3rd πρόσωπα at imperatives, from ancient greek)
  4. are you going to write fully the forms with auxiliary: έχω (έχεις, έχει, έχουμε έχετε, έχουν) + present indic...bla blah?
  5. For the 'Other Forms' section: i liked your old little box for participle and infinitive(Non-finite)... (I have been reading a lot these past days about verb-terms, about Participles. I will not tire you with details. The discussion in Greece is long (National Conference for terminology, endless blogs and posts about schoolgrammars etc). The transition from traditional grammar-terms to the modern ones is happening NOW (later better than never. And your tables are going to play a vital role to this transition for students of greek. Compare with the trad. el.wikt tables at el:λύνω. Secondary-grade students are being tought traditional-grammar terms, and primary-grade students contemporary with Philippaki's grammar (as in Holton.Philippaki et al). She deals with participles outside the verb-ables. Calls the Present-participle: 'Indeclinable Participle (resembling an adverb)' and the Perfect Participle 'Declinable Participle' (resembling an adjective). The feeling I got from the discussions about Participles, was that the term 'Gerund' (which is being discussed alongside 'adverbial participle' etc) is not widely accepted. I have always associated it with latin, not greek. Perhaps the feeling of the word in english is different. The -οντας participles are not noun-behaving forms, so why 'gerundia'? Owww please, do call it some other name! :) Of course, it is your decision.
  6. PoS at participles-behaving-as-adjectives: another long discussion in greece. Schoolbooks are accused of being inconsistent and contradicting. Your solution was great (adding both CATs at the pages). AFTER you decide what to call the 2 types of participles in your tables, don't we need to go to all participle entries and make the description according to your table? I could do that. e.g. Could you choose from the expressions:
    1. λύνοντας. XXXX of verb λύνω
    2. λυμένος. Perfect participle of passive voice of verb λύνω
    3. λυμένος. Perfect participle of λύνομαι, passive voice of verb λύνω
    4. and possibly add under PoS: 'functioning as adjective' or something
  7. By the you know that at the moment, lots of imperatives are published wrong (compounds), and that λύω has λυνμένος as Perfect Participle...
  8. just for the record: perfective = simple στιγμιαίος and imperfective = continuous εξακολουθητικός? Philippaki has 'εξακολουθητικός'=continuous (θα λύνω, imperative: λύνε), 'συνοπτικός=simple (fut. θα λύσω, imperative 'λύσε') and συντελεσμένος=perfective? (fut. θα έχω λύσει).

The divorce between traditional greek grammar and contemporary understanding of it, seems final. Still, I feel, a divorce should end in friendly terms. For greek studies, the encountering of both modern and ancient grammar, is inevitable for all hellenists. A nod to ancient grammarians, would be a nice thing. Philippaki keeps the words Aorist, etc, and for the Subjunctive & Imperative she adds a tiny footnote. ... Σε άλλες γραμματικές ... what used to be Present Subjunctive, Aorist Subjunctive... etc.

  • and oh, please, when you finish the verb-έργο could you rethink the 'uncountable' term for nouns, please??? The existence of plural depends on it.

I shall not edit things, until the end of your work, dear mentor. Awaiting for your publishing, with great προσδοκίες. sarri.greek (talk) 18:48, 2 February 2018 (UTC)

Reply 1[edit]

@sarri.greek:Whoa - rather a lot there :)
3. Do you mean Subjunctive should be below "Future perfect" and above "Imperative" in the table ?
> sarri: yes (I understand you avoid 'Indicative' word, but there is the end of it
> salt: point taken!
4. No - I was going to leave it as it is now (just 1st person singular) and do the same for Future & subjunctive. Surely anyone viewing the perfect tenses will be familiar with that much grammar.
> mmmm. not if he does not speak greek.
5. "old little box" - I don't understand! Do you mean like the 'old table' as seen at λύνω ?
> sarri: yes, two little squares Participle, Non-finite above Notes. Shows how diff from other forms. I like it
> salt: I've made a change - is this what you mean?
6. The PoS headings used thoughout Wiktionary are set in stone (more or less) - I'm not sure that we have to agree between the table and word-entry. If I understand you λύνοντας should be labelled "indeclinable participle" and λυμένος "declinable participle" in the table?
> sarri: no, not at PoS --god forbid--!:). Under PoS at the definition line. A fixed expression. For people to copy-paste, like from your model pages.
That enough for the present! — Saltmarsh. 19:46, 2 February 2018 (UTC)

sarri, replying above @Saltmarsh: sarri.greek (talk)

> — Saltmarsh. 06:58, 3 February 2018 (UTC)

Comments 2[edit]

Magic @Saltmarsh:! Your changes great. I love it.

  1. details:
    1. these headings are not centered, but aligned left: Indicative. Subjunctive. Imperative. Other forms.
    2. these headings are not centered, but aligned right, I presume intentionally, to show they are under 'Future tenses': PresentPerf. PastPerf FuturePerf.
    3. these headings are not centered, but aligned right, I presume intentionally, to show they describe their right-side-cell: Present participle \thaaanks\ Perfect Participle. Active non-finite form. Passive non-finite form.
    4. are all the headings going to have links.
      > salt: I think this is sorted (further links may follow)
  2. at line-headings 1 you have: Imperfective apsect. Perfective aspect. Imperfective TENSES. Perfective TENSES. Is the distinction intentional?
    > salt: typo - but I am a bit vague about the nomenclature of grammar :)
  3. I love, love the tooltip at the little arrows. In greek too!. Can you believe it, i have never been sure of the translation of the terms... (Should it be an arrow... or something ☜ Put it at all same words too?)
    ☜ looks good if I view it with Edge - but it's crap with Chrome and Firefox!
    1. Imperfective aspect: Εξακολουθητικοί χρόνοι (as in el.witkionary) -we cannot say Εξακολουθητικό ποιόν ενέργειας. Babiniotis at his grammar uses Ατελές ποιόν.
    2. Perfective aspect: Συνοπτικοί/στιγμιαίοι χρόνοι. Babi: Τέλειο ποιόν.
    3. now, the third aspect, Συντελεσμένοι χρόνοι [what'sss the term?], you correctly --i think-- do not add horizontally. They are at your Future Tenses: PresPerf. PastPerf. FutPerf. BUT, you also need a subjunctive for Present Perfect. Συντελεσμένη Υποτακτική: να έχω λύσει, να έχεις λύσει... & Passive: να έχω λυθεί... etc. Extra row at Subjunctive?
    4. love the tips at sg and pl. Will you add (ενικός αριθμός) (πληθυντικός αριθμός)? You even have enough space to add εγώ εσύ αυτός-ή-ό εμείς εσείς αυτοί-ές-ά :-)
    5. Dependant: = Εξαρτημένος τύπος. Your tip: The Dependent is not used alone, it is used to from Future simple /Simple future?/ Perfective subjunctive and other forms. Philippaki: The Dependent is used with particles θα and να to form ...She adds: Its 3sg is used as indeclinable...\you don't need this\
  4. Non-past tenses would be Παροντικοί χρόνοι. Past tenses Παρελθοντικοί χρόνοι. Future tenses: mmm Μελλοντικοί... which they are. Maybe Συντελεσμένοι χρόνοι (You need your third aspect. Could use both terms?)
    > salt: I think I've attended to most of this. I've shortened the "dependant" tip (user should follow the link to the Glossary - you could extend this entry if you wish)
  5. When you give only one form instead of a whole column. You could perhaps write (I've seen it at french aimer):
    1. at Fut.Continuous: particle θα + Active Present Indicative forms (θα λύνω, θα λύνεις...)
    2. at Fut.Simple: particle θα + Active Dependent forms (θα λύσω, θα λύσεις...)
    3. at PsssS.Fut.Cont: particle θα + Passive Present Indicative forms (θα λύνoμαι, θα λύνεσαι...)
    4. at Pass.Fut.Simple: particle θα + Passive Dependent forms (θα λυθώ, θα λυθείς...)
    5. at PresentPerf: auxiliary έχω + Active non-finite form (έχω λύσει, έχεις λύσει...) and so on.
      > salt: I've partially done this
  6. at PresentPerf, PastPerf. FutPerf: about your double-column-cells (col2+col3) (e.g. έχω λύσει... / είχα λύσει/ θα έχω λύσει) & (έχω λυθεί, είχα λυθεί, θα έχω λυθεί): their STEM corresponds to the column3 stem. Under Perfective aspect. Do you intend to align them right?
  7. at Imperative, i think you must add 2sg and 2pl at column1. Because in other languages the persons are more.
  8. at Present participle could also be: Gerund, indeclinable (Ενεργητική μετοχή, άκλιτη). And at Perfect partiiciple: Passive perfect participle, declinable (Παθητική μετοχή, κλιτή)
  9. for the non-finite forms, maybe add a tip: indeclinable. They don't know it.
  10. Note2: periphrastic imperative... I think, need a ref sign at word Imperative. Note could be shorter? like: Imperative is also formed periphrastically with να+subjunctive.
  11. perhaps α note: Particles such as ας, μην, ίσως etc + verbal forms, may express various modalities (wish, άρνηση, απορία). ...or... Particles + verbal forms may express various modalities: e.g. να, ας (wishing), μην (negation), ίσως (απορία) \or not. You are right, this is not a grammar textbook\

Conclusion: your talbes are the best! (I've looked at many, and they are the best). Do you want me to go through the translations -sometimes the parenthesis-marks are omitted, little things like that. sarri.greek (talk) 20:17, 3 February 2018 (UTC)

> salt: I still must look at the Subjunctives , but every addition makes template maintenance more difficult!
Thank you SO much for all your attention to this - I haven't deliberately ignored any for you careful suggestions — Saltmarsh. 12:38, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

Verb inflection templates - again![edit]

Thank you so much for your extended and invaluable help so far - it continues! I'm contacting some currently active editors of Greek entries to get some more opinions. Please have a look at User talk:Saltmarsh#Verb inflection templates and reply there. cheers — Saltmarsh. 11:35, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

You are so kind! From the first day I arrived with my endless notes, you have shown such patience with me. Your tables are winners. I'm sending you a SMALL message. sarri.greek (talk) 15:23, 19 February 2018 (UTC) Forgot to @Saltmarsh you. (Oh, erase them). NOT the verbs! the Notes! sarri.greek (talk) 16:08, 19 February 2018 (UTC)


I can't remember where we got to with -εστε/-όσαστε, is the current format OK? — Saltmarsh. 06:48, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

Yes. Indic.2pl λύνεστε (λυνόσαστε). Παρατατ. λυνόμουν(α) λυνόσουν(α) λυνόταν(ε) λυνόμαστε (λυνόμασταν), λυνόσαστε (λυνόσασταν) λύνονταν (λυνόντουσαν) λυνόντανε Ι put third. This -οντανε form, must go off at learned verbs. sarri.greek (talk) 06:56, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

Correction: @Saltmarsh All my greek books & DSMG have this order at plural λυνόμασταν (λυνόμαστε they dont' have, so this is the optional). λυνόσασταν (λυνόσαστε). λύνονταν/λυνόντουσαν (λυνόντανε is from Iordanidou).sarri.greek (talk) 07:01, 22 February 2018 (UTC) Holton also has the -όμασταν first, the-όμαστε second. Only he has δένονταν-δενόντανε-δενόντουσαν at 3pl. sarri.greek (talk) 07:05, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

  • @Sarri.greek: I will change these in the next 36 hours - If I mis-interpret your advice PLEASE SAY :)
  • I am presently going through Jordanidou's paradigms trying to check that the template works for 95%+ of them. We could probably go live then.
  • Do we then demote non-deponent passives from lemma to non-lemma forms? — Saltmarsh. 12:00, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
@Saltmarsh: You know what? It is not so serious. The types and variations. May change in the future. They are not wrong as they are now... It is refinement issue. I am more worried for the missing cells: e.g. passive present particile. The types -έστε -όσαστε etc, will differ anyway from verb to verb: verbs labelled Demotic, vebers labelled Learned (these do not have the -όντουσαν kind of endings... It will be probably done manually... It will take months. Every verb published must be checked. sarri.greek (talk) 12:09, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
@Sarri.greek: Thank you so much. I've done the active/passive template (please check - and are there any other word orders that worry you) and will so the separate passive template later. — Saltmarsh. 12:15, 22 February 2018 (UTC) ++ @Saltmarsh Sorry, I did not understand the demote non-deponent passives from lemma to non-lemma... my brain is stuck.. sarri.greek (talk) 12:17, 22 February 2018 (UTC) ++ What do you mean you've done the active-passive template? You mean at Sanbox3? sarri.greek (talk) 12:21, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
Ah yes sorry @Saltmarsh: you mean if λύνομαι kind of verbs will be lemmata.. Bof... I guess they are forms. And perhaps you would like to still put a table in their page... But the reader HAS to go to main page λύνω. I am wondering if usage notes, special definiotions for -μαι forms..., yesss, they must be in main page. I think I saw this in Entry layrout or somewere, it says that such definitions of forms must be in main page... (Salt, we are masochists...) sarri.greek (talk) 12:31, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
Yes @Saltmarsh: I saw the changes at Template:el-conj-2-1st. Much smoother now. I ll need to recheck with clearer eye, but I think they are geat. sarri.greek (talk) 12:38, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
(1) I will deal with the pass.pres.participle.
(2) Learned's -όντουσαν ending can be suppressed with a flag or a separate template if there are many other differences.
(3) My hopes (the KISS principle) are that lots of this (eg imperatives) can be taken care of showing only one form. Its entry having sections ---Alternative forms--- and ----Usage notes---- togive details.
(4a) Passive forms lemma/non-lemma. We should certainly have definitions (at present most have "passive of …" is just a placeholder until a proper translation can be added.
(4b) Each should have a ----Conjugation---- with a link to the main/lemma λύνω page?
(5) active-passive template is the one which shows the voices beside each other horizontally (Yes as at User:Saltmarsh/Sandbox3.
Apologies if you've already covered any of these! — Saltmarsh. 06:52, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
see User:Saltmarsh/Sandbox#Testing 1 for example of pass/pres/participle, I need to sort out which verb types have this form — Saltmarsh. 17:01, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
True @Saltmarsh: Keep-It-Simple is not easy. There are words that do not have simple inflections.
1)4) ok. 2) I know you have flag=optional and flag=rare.
3) as a reader i got the impression: Alternative forms at top of page, for e.g. a dialectal or different form of the lemma itself. Usage = how i use the lemma. The inflectional forms is another section in my mind. Probably notes under ---Inflection--- and above the template. But, better in the table. Oh it depends...
5) passPres/Perf participles: sorting out which verbs have it...: Cell everywhere (at doubleAct+Pass-templates too), empty or not #TalkSandbox). About which verb has what types: verb styles#TalkSandbox. Don't worry about it, If the cells are there, manual edits can take care of all that, gradually in the future. sarri.greek (talk) 00:55, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

Verb tables (yet again)[edit]

I'm working my way through User talk:Saltmarsh/Sandbox and report some here. Incidentally you do know that can create your own Sandbox just by using a link User:Sarri.greek/Sandbox. It's just the same as any other "page".

For examples please see User:Saltmarsh/Sandbox#Testing which uses the modified template.
1. I think I've dealt with the perfect present participle - some tooltip help may be required from you please.
2. Imperative headings - the aspect headings are repeated because the column merge above (perfect tenses and subjunctive)
3. I will go through your imperative corrections "έδενε" for example uses the imperfect stem, this fails with augmented verbs.
4. I have to deal with —μένο inflections - but I would rather not add all that extra text under subjunctive.
5. Styles of verbs - still to be dealt with.
Incidentally. You have created a language heading of "Mediaeval Greek" for ζεῦγος, in wiktionary (at present anyway) it is not a separare language. Mediaeval, Koine (all those before the fall of Constantinople) come under "Ancient" but can be given the label mediaeval.
Saltmarsh. 07:30, 26 February 2018 (UTC)
I think I've dealt with (4) above - but now creating a table for long verbs with Active-Passive arranged vertically — Saltmarsh. 06:41, 27 February 2018 (UTC)
  • Now done
I don't know if it was deliberate, but you used {{el-adj-form}} instead of {{el-part-form}} (it's the headword template which allocates words to a category. You can see (hopefully) the whole list at Category:Greek headword-line templates.
Saltmarsh. 12:14, 28 February 2018 (UTC)
Καλό μήνα @Saltmarsh: (sorry, been away, too much work). Magic-work with the verbs!
> Sandbox... (i presume a pge one writes-erases. Does it matter how we call it? I call them lab, commands, etc?
1. The 4 cells (as in Iordanidou) for participles:
row1: Present Participle Μετοχή Ενεστώτα [I presume, imperfective aspect] Now, tooltip cannot include the word 'indeclinable': active is indeclinable, but passive (learned, whereever it exists), is declinable. cells: i) Gerund, Μετοχή Ενεργητικού Ενεστώτα, άκλιτη (ορίζοντας) ii) Learned Μετοχή Παθητικού Ενεστώτα (οριζόμενος)
row2: Perfect Participle Μετοχή Παρακειμένου [I presume perfective aspect]. --Salt, do you call παρακείμενος (el) (parakeímenos) Perfect? or Present Perfect? the el.wiktionary does not have a translation--. i) Μετοχή Ενεργητικού Παρακειμένου (έχοντας ορίσει) ιι) Μετοχή Παθητικού Παρακειμένου (ορισμένος). Frankly, between you and me the έχοντας ορίσει form, is included, to balance the passive cell. Iordanidou has it, otherwise it would not be very very needed...
2. and 3. OK. 4. -μένο? never mind. You mean the Accusative. a tooltip? But, as you often say... the table is not a grammarbook.
5. that's for 'internal' use, for our understanding. Flags: I cannot remember now, but I have seen tables with little 1, 2 (also in colour) for your notes 'learned', 'rare'...
6. Medieval Greek. Well, truth is, it is not under ancient, like Koine is. There are not too many lemmata for it. Yet. In the future, the problem will arise. If Med. is close to a phase, that is the modern phase. (I followed the el.witkionary style Cat:Med & Cat:Med.Grammar) I'll avoid such words in the future (I was thinking of doing ζευγάριν but i'll drop it).
> {{el-part-form}} Oh dear.. Yes, I copied adj. mistakenly. I will check all participles. Thanks for Category:Greek headword-line templates I'll need it.
> I will be following your herculean work with verbs... Are you going to publish one by one? Has anybody else seen them? Asking me to take a look at your work flatters me, but, I am no philologist...
> tooltips Imperfect and Simple Past: make capitals the words as in your other tooltips? P.S. I usually log in, weekends and Monday. Bye now sarri.greek (talk) 10:11, 1 March 2018 (UTC)
— Καλό μήνα to you too!
  • Sandbox - you can try stuff out there without bothering about doing harm, or just use it to store things temporarily. It will stay there until you delete it. For example (if you wanted) you could try out the new conjugation tables (Category:User:Saltmarsh) has the ones done so far, one of my sandboxes (User:Saltmarsh/Sandbox0) has the table of parameters, although this is still under development.
  • Medieval Greek - the Ancient/Modern division is arbitrary (see Wiktionary:About Greek/Draft new About Greek) - a wider discussion would need to happen if we were to have another language heading, I am not qualified to discuss it, perhaps you could ask the community at the Wiktionary:Beer parlour.
  • Looking at the tables - I asked Xoristzatziki, Stelio and Rossyxan, only Stelio replied (once I think). Question: I was thinking of putting a flag whcih would assign verbs to a suitable category - perhaps "unchecked" or "checked", although I suspect this would be a "hostage to fortune" (my dictionary says "εκτίθεμαι σε μελλοντικούς κινδύνους") - a category of hundreds which I would be unqualified to check.
  • No need to check correct spellings of table contents yet - as long as the headings, tooltips etc are in the right place - a very big ευχαριστώ.
Saltmarsh. 14:16, 1 March 2018 (UTC)
— More
  • Medieval Greek - see About_Ancient_Greek — I don't see why a word cannot appear under both Ancient Greek and Greek, and labelled as Mediaeval in both?
  • Thanks for you comments (I'm very grateful) on format etc. I am looking through them.
  • Question: I never learnt about the alternative perfective perfect tense (έχω ορισμένο) I hadn't thought long enough about this "ορισμένο" is accusative - so it is always remains accusative and only changes with gender & number? No - it behaves as a noun, so just has number??
Saltmarsh. 06:44, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
- Snow? @Saltmarsh: In northern greece too. But in southern, 15-17 Celsius now.
  • 1. Sandbox: ...without bothering about doing harm... Harm to what? I presume you mean changing templates, modules. Is 'Sandbox' a page unlike any other user page? I just write and rewrite my lab pages (like a παλίμψηστος-palimpsest). Is a 'Sandbox' different? I am totally ignorant of computers and scripting... except very little htm TABLE DT and so on...It is very hard for me to find 'templates' every time i edit... So I chose participles, and I messed up, because i copied the wrong thing...
  • 2. Mediaeval Greek: let's postpone this issue for the moment? I will collect data-arguments for its emanicipation...
  • 3 Showing tables for feedback: Goodness! you are all alone in this? There are professional grammarians who would dread attempting what you have already done. I'll try to find aquaintances who could take a look... In the meantime: Flyax. [He is inactive. Is he OK? We have never 'met', but I am worried] I see, he has done most of the verb Templates @el.wikt. Except the traditional style Active. el:δένω Passive el:δένομαι, sometimes added in BOTH pages el:λύνω & el:λύνομαι again only the Passive. There is also this horizontal style: el:σηκώνω.
  • -IF you deal with the passive as a lemma, with its own examples, etc, then, its own inflection could be added also there, plus at the main lemma page. So, you have double tables: Act+Pass together e.g. at page λύνω -which is very good for juxtaposition-, and a Passive alone at the page e.g. λύνομαι. So all kinds of table formats could be available: Active. Passive. Act+Passive.
  • 4. >>as long as the headings, tooltips etc are in the right place Not yet, tooltips need check. Not serious. Some capital letters. Is your policy this: Include in tooltips all terms: english & greek attested-in-grammars, either traditional or more modern.
  • 5. Present Perfect = Παρακείμενος. There is Parakeimenos A = έχω λύσει/έχω λυθεί and Parakeimenos B = έχω λυμένο (yes, in Acc)/είμαι λυμένος (in Nom). The story of these two is long. The B. type is older, comes from koine, even older. It survives vividly in today's dialects. In Koine Neohellenic (Standard Mod.Gre) it has a slightly different nuance in its meaning (grammarians debate and debate). I need to write a summary of my notes.
  • 6. PS. How do you delete pages? e.g. κουραστηκός κουραστηκά not κουράστηκα, αγγέλω not αγγέλλω, αγγείλω
  • 7. PPS. Participles: I need your OK. After you finish with verbs, I will ask you to take a look -I 'll do one and show it to you-, otherwise, what's the point of my editing in the wrong way dozens of words?
PPPS. O Salt! I have so many questions, SO MANY edit-notes sitting there at my laptop. Don't know where to start.
  • 8. About tables and tooltips: How about a rendez-vous in real time: you edit, I read, we talk, you edit... Hope you will not mind my smoking. sarri.greek (talk) 06:12, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

—It's 2degC now, so thing are getting better. Replies to some of your points:
— 1. Subpages: these are just like you "User:Sarri.greek/lab" page so you dont need to call them Sandboxes - its just another title for an experimental area. I have some subpages (eg "User:Saltmarsh/template1") where I experiment with a developing template, note that 'official templates' are kept in an area 'Templates:' (like categories in an area 'Category:', and users in 'User:'). If your put the name of a page in curly brackets {{page name}} it will be "transcluded" - the whole page will be included in another.
— 3. Flyax - used to be very active on en:wikt but is still around but not very active (go to any page edited by him, look at page history, click on contributions/συνεισφορές against and editor's name and you'll see a list of his most recent edits. "17:53, 12 Φεβρουαρίου 2018" at present.
—Active/Passive lemma non-lemma can be delt with later
— 4. I think Tool tips should include:- in English: terms which the English speaker might be familiar with (eg gerund) —in Greek: a commomn term useful to a Greek. Probably all caps should be removed. I cribbed the Greek terms not supplied you from Μανόλης Τριανταφυλλίδης (his "Concise" translated in Australia bu John Burke).
— 5. Thank you for the lesson - changing language is interesting, I remember Flyax (I think it was him) saying that he used to address his father with the formal 2nd person plural but that his kids wouldn't dream of it!
— 6. Deletion: finding your way round Wiktionary is not easy, and after more than 10 years I am not familiar with areas where I don't venture. The Help pages are sometimes not very helpful and may use unfamiliar terms - but have a look at Wiktionary:Cleanup and deletion process. The formal procedures are to prevent incorrect deletions. If want a page in your user personal area deleted I can do it. And if folloing the procedure and after a few days of consultation with no objections I can delete.
— 7. The terms used by grammarians seem to change and are subject to fashion.
— 8. Skype on my computer does not work properly at present. (Smoking would be compulsory - but I'm not allowed to in the house!)
Now I must try to do some editing — Saltmarsh. 07:43, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

Γραμματικοί όροι[edit]

I fancied a change from verbs - a list at User:Saltmarsh/Lists/Grammar probably contains errors and is incomplete - culled mainly from Μανόλης Τριανταφυλλίδης (Concise) translated by John Burke of Melbourne Uni. — Saltmarsh. 17:44, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

My dream came true @Saltmarsh:. I never had real lessons of grammar neither in greek.mod. (we are supposed to know it) nor in eng. Your Lists are published as Appendices! Lovely. --Reverse the headings English Greek. συνεκφώνηση. full stop. στίξη. 1st syllable αρχική (συλλαβή). participle x2. Will you do a different one for linguistics? sarri.greek (talk) 17:52, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
You spotted by deliberate errors! I think that eventually we should have these lists as proper appendices. — Saltmarsh. 18:12, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
προσφώνηση too, @Saltmarsh: (I get your messages 20 min late... Is it my connection... Weird that Triantafyllides has κορωνίς at his Modern Greek Gr. I thought it happens only in ancient. But, it has to be included in your list! sarri.greek (talk) 18:26, 3 March 2018 (UTC) @Saltmarsh:, are you duplicating some on purpose? ok... sarri.greek (talk) 18:30, 3 March 2018 (UTC) @Saltmarsh, I think diphthongization is the opposite of συνεκφώνηση=uttering together. It is διφθογγισμός=vowel breaking, or διαίρεση, but διαίρεση I am not sure. sarri.greek (talk) 21:58, 3 March 2018 (UTC)


I HOPE i did not mess again. I corrected θλιμμένος + its forms. Could you please please check them (when you have time?).

  • 1. at ety, i like to show the passive verb -μαι, but also the basic lemma -ω (κουρασμένος) (to save 2 clicks for the user, and well, i find it more complete). Do you agree, or is it too much?
  • 2. el-participle of takes a nodot=1 but if i wish to go on adding a comma, it comes after a space. θλιμμένος (no big deal, i can omit the comma)...
  • 3. For SOME participles, I wish to add α note: More often/frequently? used?/functions? as an adjective and for the -ώντας: ...functions?/behaves? as adverbial participle. Old grammars used: επεχει θέση επιθέτου... (it 'holds' an adjectives' role/place). Should i put it as 'Usage notes'? (Wish there were 'Notes' or footnote, or northing, just write under PoS.
  • 4. Categories: There could be a Category: Passive Present Participles (learned) (οριζομενος). A Cat: Passive Past Participles?/Simple Past Participles? learned (ορισθείς). And a Cat: Participles from Katharevousa (e.g. απηλλαγμένος versus mod. απαλλαγμένος, same thing in ancient fashion). Babiniotis-Clairis grammar has long list of such participles.

You are the boss! sarri.greek (talk) 19:34, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

1. Looks fine
2. White space now removed
3. By all means add a level 4 "Usage notes" (in plural even if there's only one)
4. a category: "Greek passive present participles" it must have "Greek" and no more caps. It should nested in Category:Greek participles - see Category:Greek present participles on how to achieve this. I ain't the boss - any further categories are up to you :) — Saltmarsh. 05:43, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
I am here @Saltmarsh Ok, not boss: Master, Δάσκαλε @Saltmarsh:! (a word reserved for someone beyond 'καθηγητής'). Thanks, and thanks for that comma, and all. sarri.greek (talk) 09:26, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
Salt, what is correct English:
1. Present active/passive participle
2. Active/pass present participle. (in greek we say Participle of active present... At Template:el-part & el-participle I will need more than the tense. Active present. Active past. Passive present. Passive past. Passive perfect. I can try add them, but the order of the words... The equivalent ancient is {inflection of|xxxx||pres|p|part|lang=grc} its order of words is ad libitum. Should I use this one when needed? Thhhanks sarri.greek (talk) 11:30, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

Verbs - closure[edit]

I've made the latest changes - I hope accurately from your notes (thank you). I am anxious not to titivate much more. Just attend to any errors! And thank you again — Saltmarsh. 06:40, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

I am looking at ορίζω/ορίζομαι @Saltmarsh. Your nice solution: all small letters (I presume will be the same for all tables).
  • Tooltip Passive Present Participle: κλιτή (not κλιτό). Active Perfect Participle: add άκλιτη? & Pass.Perf.Part. add κλιτή (if you want same expressions with the actives).
  • At non-finite, i would add άκλιτος τύπος, απαρέμφατο. (just to make sure you cover all its names).
  • Subjunctive mood is not really presented. Its 3 froms. You know that, I understand it was your concious decision?
  • Future: it is possible that some readers will not realize it is θα+Indictative. Maybe some tooltip like the one at participles...
  • Perfect aspect, not perfective (over the perfect tenses). Holton, discusses aspect at 7.1.3 as 'two' aspects. Then, at 7.1.4: Greek also has a set of 3 prefect tenses which stand outside the aspectual system of imperfective versus perfective. He does not name it 'third aspect', but greek books do: συντελεσμένο ποιόν [ενέργειας]. (same word as συντελεσμένοι χρόνοι). It IS presented as a 3rd aspect, even if Holton chooses to discuss it separately and a bit vaguely; probably he has doubts about its characterization. I thought the whole section centered, to show it is neither imperfective nor perfective.
And all this you and your magic modules will transfer at every table! You must show this to Iordanidou. After everything is ready, why not... Hurrrahhhh sarri.greek (talk) 09:32, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
|ευχαριστώ πολύ! I'll do those and then transfer them to the other table templates. — Saltmarsh. 11:32, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
15 minutes later - I hope/think I've done what you wanted - tooltip to future forms showing formation - and the others. Correct agreement of endings was always a problem with me, since I did Latin at school in the 50s. — Saltmarsh. 11:48, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
 :) ok @Saltmarsh:, I'll look now. I left you a little question at participles... sarri.greek (talk) 11:50, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
@Saltmarsh:, Great. Do you also want a tip at Perfect aspect? συντελεσμένο ποιόν. Future, is great.
About the Notes: 1. Multiple forms are usually shown I don't think you need the word 'usually'... 2. maybe some flag to Imperative? it seems like a general note when it is not. sarri.greek (talk) 12:00, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
  • it should perhaps read "Multiple forms: usually shown in order of reducing frequency" better?. I would rather not introduce a flag (KISS!) and it does apply to other forms like 3rd person plural forms.
  • Please repeat (sorry) your " little question at participles"
Saltmarsh. 12:19, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
@Saltmarsh: I would just erase the word usually. (the tables ALWAYS show the forms that way) ..a detail. Ok. no flags... A.. when you have time. The participles. Just above this section. Not now, when you have time :) sarri.greek (talk) 12:24, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
Do you mean where it says " For SOME participles, I wish to add α note: More often/frequently? used?/functions? ..."? — Saltmarsh. 12:26, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
I was talking about the word 'usually' in the pink notes #1 at the verb tables. Never mind. sarri.greek (talk) 12:28, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
Done. I'll copy those changes onto the other tables. Then check through Jiord's 1st conjugation for any paradigms which give a problem. — Saltmarsh. 05:51, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

Verbs closure 2[edit]

Dear @Saltmarsh,

  • 1. Oops. at Subjunctive: <<Formed using present, simple past or present perfect from above...>>
Correct: Formed using present, dependent (for simple past), present perfect from above...
  • it's on my ToDo list
  • 2. a detail, but not so detail: That tooltip arrow. Is it your choice? or a wiktionary thing? At the beginning, for some days, i thought it was pointing somewhere, but it did not occur to me to pass the mouse over it. Is there a ... something like a rosette, a star, an info round icon... for stupid people like me?
  • Please suggest something which character would be best.
  • I have tried a rosette ֍. — Saltmarsh. 14:45, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
  • 3. I do not know your procedure in publishing process. I think it would be good if you could also check-together each verb with one of its compounds, rather than do it later. There may be slight or major differences. I have checked ορίζω/ορίζομαι. It is FINE. αντιπροσωπεύω/αντιπροσωπεύομαι: some tooltips are not ready yet. I, again, feel that the cells under Perfect should be centered. Active αντιπροσωπεύω is fine. BUT Passive αντιπροσωπεύομαι needs the double -σθ- learned types, and needs to drop some demotic types (compare to Iordanidou δημοσιεύομαι). I know, that now you are only interested in the TABLE-as-blank, so you may see my thoughts here and the table-notes here, later.

and 4. I made you, a little diary-note, which may become handy if some guest has objections over this or that in your lovely tables. sarri.greek (talk) 16:15, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

  • Template maintenance becomes a problem if there is too many different styles of table - eg changing a tooltip at present has to be done on each of the 4 "table" templates in Category:User:Saltmarsh we don't want too many more (there's still 2nd conj. to deal with!). The other 4 templates are used to feed the "table" ones. So I will have to look at the implcations of what you say above.
  • You might like to try using {{el-conj-2-1st}} in your lab, there is some help there and you could use some of those on my Sandbox for guidance. And tell me if it's all Greek/Chinese to you :). We need a list of verbs which cannot be accomodated by the current templates, I've been going through Jiordanidou, but perhaps your compound verbs will raise a problem? — Saltmarsh. 17:22, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
    • I've done διορίζω και καθορίζω (User:Saltmarsh/Sandbox#for_Sarri) - does the output look correct? — Saltmarsh. 17:46, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
    • Well having logged off I read further down your notes and see you're ahead of me. Please comment on the output — Saltmarsh. 18:50, 5 March 2018 (UTC)


你好 nǐhǎo @Saltmarsh: replying to #Verbs closure 2. I have a blurred, vague understanding of your magic templates.

  • 3 and 4: >>comment on outpout of (User:Saltmarsh/Sandbox#for_Sarri)
    • a) I understand that διορίζω type of table is identical with the table of ορίζω. If an editor chooses to suppress (‑όντανε) ( could he do it?
    • b) καθορίζομαι needs double types,... but you know this. also you have seen my notes.
  • 1. Template Maintenance of tables. I thought there was a magic thing (your language: template, module, i dont know) for tooltip, and if one changed the magic thing, it would fssssst go to all tables of all wiktionary. (yes, yes it is chinese to me) Aaaa I see you add ↑ with 2=&#x2191;
    • I am totally ingnorant of such things, but here are some candidates for tooltip singal. Or just superscript?
  • 2. >>You might like to try using {el-conj... 你好 中國 你好 中文 especially for #if... Is there a tutorial somewhere?
    • I thought: You have active finished, checked; and you have passive finished ok. If you choose to put them in one table side by side, you just 'load them' to a table with TD active and TD passive. If you want them one of top of the other, you load them to a table with TR active and TR passive. (I do not see why not visibly separate). And if you want them separate (especially passive) you already have them. So, i need active table. passive talbe. and a 'frametalbe' to host them. But how this is done i have no idea.
    • I can see how you name variables (??? I got the term right?) a-present-1s etc. but i do not know where that {{{present|}}} is.

I am reading, I am reading, I need time. --writing down some notes, but unchecked, too hasty--
In the meantime:

The Rosetta, nice. see my candidates too. sarri.greek (talk) 14:53, 6 March 2018 (UTC) @Salt: sorry for the mess..Just found out how to write < strike > sarri.greek (talk) 15:41, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

In no particular order
1. Bots Some wiktionary editors use a "bot" (short for robot I guess), this enables them to make global changes. The conjugation templates could be written as a "module", modules use something like a proper programming language and allow more sophisticated decisions to be made depending upon the input. I did programming when I was at work using a number of languages, but I have become something of a Luddite (I never use that word in a derogatory sense - admirable fellow "Νεντ Λουντ"). But undertaking either bot or module would I think involve me wasting time (such things are interesting in themselves) and changes to my computer software, which I don't want to carry out.
But I can make global changes to each template file using my text editor. The problem with editing these templates is that an error might not show up until a particular set of conditions occur.
2. Double forms The only double forms catered for are ACtive-imperfect & aorist. With really odd verbs every form an be entered look underlying text at the User:Saltmarsh/Sandbox3#Custom this is really laborious, and to be avoided whenever possible. Have a look at User:Saltmarsh/Sandbox#for_Sarri again I have added a note to καθορίζω, I had already done this for "ελέγχω" on the same page.
3. Unwanted forms I should be possible to control the oddities of imperative forms - but any more optional extras are I think (unless really very common) impossible to achieve. There is a caveat emptor warning at the bottom of the old verb conjugations (this is why I said "usually" previously - is anything totally universal?) as a warning that some shown forms may be "rare or non-existant".
4. This is how it is and I don't want to start again! I'm just trying to run through the verbs to find out if there are any serious oproblems.
5. Wiktionary:Page deletion guidelines and Wiktionary:Cleanup and deletion process explain the processes. I've deleted "κοριτσάρων " but I think you should give me a clear list of terms that you want deleted. I don't think that it's wrong to have words that are miss-spelled reasonably often - if someone looks it up with the wrong spelling they will leave a wiser person.
6. Move - move allows you to move a page with its history to a new one - example: I create page "craby" and intended it to be "crabby" I can move the first to the second (provided "crabby" doesn't already exist.)
Saltmarsh. 12:46, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
Dear @Saltmarsh:! Thank you for aaaaallll the time you took to teach me, really, I appreciate. Lovely tooltip. Luddite... I'll think about it. _2. Double types... laborious: don't worry: I can write them quite fast. Give me verbs - i write - you oversee. __3. rare or non existant... in tables? at tables i like precision. That is why they are called 'paradeigmata'. You can OMIT, but not include an ambiguous and wrong type. If in doubt, omit. __4 Yes yes, I know, you will get a medal for these verbs, I KNOW how much work you have done! __5 About erasing pages: yes wrong utterances can be recorded as such. (But only when frequent). Ok: now: to my job, proofreading. Here, at SndbxTlk Good night, or: good morning. sarri.greek (talk) 02:29, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

Wikt logging you off[edit]

Firstly - you're obviously an accomplished templater/programmer - but "Μια εικόνα αξίζει όσο χίλιες λέξεις" (with Google's help) and I see what you were talking about. I'll be back in the morning. And thanks very, very much.

1. Logging off, I'm not sure why that should be - although lately pages especially loading categories, saving edits have been very slow lately. I cannot help, see if it continues.
2. "Learned", "Literary" I have no feeling for precisely what these mean. Please can you give me some examples of where you might expect to find them (poetry, prayer, legal document, act of parliament, Η Καθημερινή, university lecture, etc etc)
and thanks again — Saltmarsh. 19:00, 9 March 2018 (UTC)
Oww @Saltmarsh: copy-paste with alterations promotes me to a 'programmer'? You are being supportive and encouraging. __Loggin off: not so much. Probably my internet is lagging. __learned, literary: yes, one can find them in all your examples. I have similar problem: I know what it means in greek, I am unsure of english. You could see if my greek-dictionary terms are useful? I still have a problem with some of them. Good night. sarri.greek (talk) 21:40, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

Learned: verbs or forms?[edit]

  1. (repeated from elsewhere) -όντανε: do we omit this for all verbs? Is it important to leave it in for others?
  2. Dangerous cells:
    1. How many cells?
    2. How many forms in each?
    3. Is it important that all are 'linked'?
I am thinking about future users of our templates. If there is only one form - it can be linked automatically. If there are more, or if rare/learned brackets are to be attached life becomes more complicated. If you think that future editors can be relied upon, it is would be possible for them to enter text character-by-character eg {[[βλαηβλαη]]}, [[[βραηβραη]]] which would give {βλαηβλαη}, [βραηβραη].
Saltmarsh. 07:12, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

@Saltmarsh: also, Thank you for your interesting notes
For your questions here, my answer, and ultimately your decision, will be based on your final paragraph: thinking about future editors. You, dear Salt, know better how wiktionary works. I do not. But you also have to think of the future readers too, and the future of wiktionary: It is going to become more and more precise, detailed. If you allow possibility to enter text character-by-character, the hundreds of variations can be written, without creating hundreds of templates. Yes, Yes, I like {[[βλαηβλαη]]}, [[[βραηβραη]]]

  • 1. -όντανε compromise: Keep the standard -ονταν, plus (-όντουσαν) in parenthesis, and GET RID EVERYWHERE of -όντανε. (cf my last paragraph)
  • 2.1. How many: 9 Dangerous cells: anarchic cells:notes: passive imperfect plural 3rd (if you do the COMPROMISE this is out), the Imperatives, the Participles= 1+4+4=9. Or 8.
  • 2.2. how many forms: Just an option for senior editor to re-write ad libitum the cell. For pass.perfect.participles, (e.g. κεκλεισμένος) you may make a provision for a second learned type (when non-existand:invisible, not with long dash blank). Also, editor should be allowed to add a little singnal/flag/ref --how do you call it?-- for his |note=. If you do not, the editor can add it as a note, or as a Usage note.
  • 2.3. linked? I do not understand... Is not EVERY word on the table linked to a page?
  • your title: Learned verbs or forms? At the 'dangerous' cells: both. There are common demotic verbs with POP! one little learned form (e.g. pass.perf.part κεκλεισμένος). And there verbs that are categorized as learned in most of their forms (they behave more like their ancient version). = The compounds, the -χθ-/χτ σθ/στ etc are also behaving thus.
  • 1 -όντανε again: IF you decide to make 2 kinds of basic templates: I would include it in parenthesis at normal verbs (let's all them the 'δένω' verbs). And I would completely take it off, as well as -όντουσαν at compounds (Let's call them the 'προσδένω' verbs). (I choose δένω, because λύνω's compounds go: επιλύω, which is a different verbal stem). Iordanidou omits these endings (-όντουσαν, -όντανε) at compound/'learned' verbs. At my recap I made a 3fold categorization, which, is TOO meticulous. excessive. But I feel, that learned compounds, should be dealt separately. (el.wiktionary, greek schoolgrammars DO NOT have -όντανε AT ALL). sarri.greek (talk) 08:21, 12 March 2018 (UTC)
  • Firstly an apology - if you have to repeat yourself sometimes!
  • 1. Got it, "χχχόντουσαν" will be in full because of the shifted tonos.
I will have a think about the rest - so no more request for a day or so please!
Saltmarsh. 19:10, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

March 13[edit]

I am making changes to the parameters of {{el-conj-2-1st}} - everything will be unstable for a day or so. — Saltmarsh. 06:51, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

Anarchic cells[edit]

Allowing verbatim entry by an editor into a cell will involve multiple nested "if" statements. I working on allowing all imperative & participle cells to be overwritten or blanked (ie not verbatim). Please give me one cell where you would like verbatim entry and I can experiment - "template language" is a blunt instrument, more could be achieved with modules, but don't wish to venture there. — Saltmarsh. 07:13, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

Ok, @Saltmarsh:, don't bother... There is 'Usage notes' which will deal with everything:-) sarri.greek (talk) 07:19, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
Γαστρεντερίτιδα! Thanks (and sorry about that unusual opening) I've now got to get back up to speed and hope to be back in full working order within a couple of days. — Saltmarsh. 06:44, 20 March 2018 (UTC)
O dear! @Saltmarsh: I was truly worried... Thanks for letting me know you are ok... I am online, available for chores if you need me... sarri.greek (talk) 10:05, 20 March 2018 (UTC)
  • Thanks - it would be good if you could look at User:Saltmarsh/template1b (not a template) with the naming scheme I am aiming for. (1) Is the wording reasonably clear? (2) Are the parameter names reasonably understandable? They need to be shortish, of similar lengths (easy pasting) but still understandable! They don't work yet, but I am working up U:S/template1 & U:S/template1a with the changes — Saltmarsh. 11:00, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

looking at template1b[edit]

quick thoughts @Saltmarsh:

  • At first column (with the green cells), the only word which is NOT exact is: simplepas. Instead of 'simplepast' or just 'past'. If an editor needs to remember by heart, this is the only wording he has to remember. If it is only for your use, it does not matter.
  • At imperatives: it is the only occasion where you name them by aspect, not tense: the perf here might confuse editors (with perfect TENSE). I would signal the 2 imperatives as present and past or....a-imperf-imptv-sg, a-pfctive-imptv-sg... uff i dont know , just to avoid confusion.
  • EXPLANATIONS at column2: e.g. present = stem of active present form.
  • Should be = stem of present active, passive (AND: a-imperfect-sg1, 2, 3b. AND: a-present-imptv-pl2. AND: p-present-imprtv-pl2. AND: a-present-part.) etc.
  • Do you want me to make a list of: what form corresponds to which stem? I think of stems as three, easy for editor:
  • e.g. ενεστωτικό ('present-bound'): presStem: presStem2=δήλων presStem1=δηλών presStem0=δηλων (the imperfect is done with THIS stem). and your 2nd for φρεσκάριζ=2presStem2.
  • αοριστικό (pastStem) δηλωσ-.. etc plus your 2nd for φρεσκάρισ etc.
  • and παθητικό αοριστικό (lets call it perfStem).
  • The editor does not need to remember which stem does what. He just adds all the stems with their variated accentuation: It would help him if the order of the stems which you ask for, is the easy order, not necessarily the 'grammatically logical' but the phonetically logical. e.g. φρεσκαρ φρεσκάρ φρέσκαρ φρεσκαριζ φρεσκαρίζ φρεσκάριζ φρεσκαριστ (φρεσκαρισθ not for this one, but for other verbs) φρεσκαρίστ (φρεσκαρίσθ) φρεσκαρισμ. Even if he adds a stem which does not exist in the table, it would not matter.
  • what the editor DOES NEED to remember, is when he wants to override auto, and write his own word: that is in Imperatives, and the Participles. Here, he needs to remember your names-of-cells: a-imptv-imperf-sg, a-imptv-perf-sg, etc. I would use a-pres-imptv-sg, a-past-imtv-pl, etc (voice-tense-mood-number). similar: Participles: a-perfect-2: what's this? Please give example. A... is it for learned participles?
  • ref: 'during development' you mean, the readers/users will not see it. Hope it will be hidden in < -. Helps a lot! sarri.greek (talk) 12:21, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

I have assumed that no one (not even me) will remember them - I keep blank "template calls" in a text file so that I can paste them into a page. So they may have all the param-names and delete the unwanted ones. ie the names may not be remembered but should mean something when read.

  • OK simplepas > simplepast
  • I used the "column headings" - I think the identical part of the name should come first. I've changed the names slightly to make things clearer, following the pattern:
a-imptv-perfctv-pl and p-imptv-imperfctv-pl
  • Parameter order - the editor can use them in their own preferred order - the template picks up the name, that's all.
  • I should have made it obvious that the stem used is taken from the "1st person sg" in each case, so imperfect is taken from sing > "δήλψνα, …" and plur. present > "δηλώναμε, …". Is Greek grammar taught with a different meaning to stem?
  • a-perfect-2 - it says at the top of the section:Use the parameter below to give the passive perfect participle and the alternative perfect tenses.
  • ref will disappear in time - from the heading when it goes live and in small print in the footer eventually.
 :)))) @Saltmarsh: ok, I thought i had to remember it all...
--Participles: my brain is stuck. Give examples here too as you do with all the other forms?
--how stems are taught... They are thought as stems, not as forms. Well, they do related to this or that tense, but, for instance: imperfect uses the present.Stem. this is how i think of them.
You know what? Your verbs are FINE.... Start publishing now! pleeeaszzzz. Champagne and everything. sarri.greek (talk) 16:58, 20 March 2018 (UTC)
Good morning Sarri - almost finished, checking through the Jiordi list and finishing off the guide. — Saltmarsh. 05:51, 23 March 2018 (UTC)
Great morning! @Saltmarsh: I saw explanations at Template1b (yes yes now I understood - sorry). So, I am available if you need me to proofread or something. sarri.greek (talk) 05:57, 23 March 2018 (UTC)
Teacher! I forgot to tell you @Saltmarsh: I tried a template for ηγουμένη Template:el-nF-η-ες-2a1, but I was so nervous I first created it as Template:el-nF-η-2a1 ... I asked for delete. sarri.greek (talk) 06:02, 23 March 2018 (UTC)
Deleted and thank you - if you have time to have a look at any on User:Saltmarsh/Sandbox that would be nice. I shall be here until about 7GMT (about an hour from now). — Saltmarsh. 06:06, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

Suspicious edits[edit]

Hello. What do you think of the edits of 2A02:587:D832:8900:2DCE:AC32:CCD5:4CF7 (talk)? It seems this IP is making literal translations. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 14:22, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

Yes, he is. Word for word. And he wrote γιός when it is γιος. Nice to see you X! Are you by any chance aphenphosmphobic? ++A, yes, now it see it is you... sarri.greek (talk) 21:33, 23 March 2018 (UTC)
Thanks, I've reverted the edits. Yes that's me, you have a keen eye! --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 21:51, 23 March 2018 (UTC)
I am looking forward to your next name @Per utramque cavernam: Could you please make it shorter... sarri.greek (talk) 22:00, 23 March 2018 (UTC)
Τι λες για το όνομα Anus Dei (talkcontribs); Κακόγουστο είναι; --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 21:58, 24 March 2018 (UTC)
Αχ, FX. You boys @Per utramque cavernam: with your wonderful names... No, I do not like it, It is not as witty as you are. You can look up Martialis for your next one. I have one in mind, but I shall wait until YOU come up with it. Greek, of course. By the way: The Derived Terms section just below: you should be talking to somebody else... You may cut it and paste it at is right place. errr... If I may: Have you got your PHD or DEA yet? sarri.greek (talk) 22:10, 24 March 2018 (UTC)
You have to give me some clues, I'll never find it otherwise!
No, the message below is at its proper place :-) Perhaps I should have chose another example than that Russian one, but I'm pretty sure I've discussed this issue with you specifically.
And no, not yet unfortunately. :/ --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 22:21, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

Νο, we have have not discussed Derived Terms (except that i don't like the word @Per utramque cavernam: 'terms'. We have discussed borrow-versus-inherit at Talk page of errr... πῶλος and θύρα. _Name: I have given you clues before (at #Χαιρετίσματα) _DEA: go get it... don't waste your time: you can start editing in Wiktionary in your 60s:)))) sarri.greek (talk) 22:30, 24 March 2018 (UTC) +++ If you mean (at Derivatives) that I told you I don't like phrases in them, yes I don't, and I asked you to VOTE for separation of COMPOUNDS, not phrases. sarri.greek (talk) 22:32, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

Derived terms[edit]

Hello. I think we discussed this at some point, but now I can't find where it was. Anyway, I seem to remember that you didn't want to have phrases like natural selection in the ====Derived terms==== of selection, but only words: selectionist, selectional, etc. (i.e. morphological derivations).

What I tend to do now is put phrases as usexes, just below the definition. Thus, at оте́чественный, I've added Вели́кая Оте́чественная война́ like this. What do you think? --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 21:52, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

Good morning! OK @Per utramque cavernam, finally, after sleeping on it, I was convinced you were actually talking to ME.
1) Derived 'terms' especially with english strings of words can become very bad for the eye. I guess, in crowded tables, a categorization (to paragoga, compounds, expressions) would be nice. But they will not hear about it. In greek tradition the distinction between paragoge and σύνθεση ((compounding) is standard.
2) Yes, I like your UX very much. I wonder if such expressions should have their place at a special 'Expressions' list, or Usage Notes, when they are too many. But for only one, its placing as UX if fine. See @google how nice they do in grey colour the UXes, Syn, etc? The eye catches immediately the definition, and THEN moves to the Examples.
P.S. Could I bother you with this IPA stress concern of mine? PPS: Go get it! You know what... sarri.greek (talk) 02:47, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

sound post[edit]

Hello, I wonder if there is any chance you could add a Greek translation for this, please? I know these violin-related words are awkward though, so do leave it if it's not convenient for you at the moment. Thanks. Kaixinguo~enwiktionary (talk) 12:21, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

Hello @Kaixinguo~enwiktionary. I am a pianist, but I have friends who are violinists and have heard the word. Also I checked at eng and greek Wikipedia. Sound post, synonym soul post. Greek: is the word for 'soul'   t+|ψυχή|g=f|t=soul (feminine noun, known as psyche). I forgot 'soul' has that meaning too, Thanks. You could add the translation yourself if you wish, since you brought it up. I'll check the greek pages of ψυχή to see that they include it too. sarri.greek (talk) 12:37, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
@Sarri.greek: Thank you, that's great and it's lucky that you are a musician, these words are often not in the vocabulary of even native speakers. How interesting, it is 'soul' in a few other languages, too. Perhaps the Greek is the origin of this concept. Kaixinguo~enwiktionary (talk) 13:09, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
Thanks, I added it to 'sound post' but it felt weird because I can't see what I am adding :) Kaixinguo~enwiktionary (talk) 13:14, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
Perfect, @Kaixinguo~enwiktionary. No, the idea to call it 'soul' was not greek, we had no violins until New Times. It is obviously a semantic loan. At w:sound post I see french âme and Italian anima but it is not clear to me, who used the word first. It's a common joke with the violinists: what happened to your soul and so on... sarri.greek (talk) 13:21, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

Your 2nd conj template[edit]

The 2nd perfect tense forms in your template: Two types of "if" statement are used:

1. {{#if:{{{param|}}}| do this | do that }} If the parameter "param" is used then "do this" else if it isn't used "do that". A simpler form is {{#if:{{{param|}}}| do this}} when there is no 2nd alternative. The rem (=remark) <!-- --> syntax is used to make things more readable.
2. {{#ifeq:{{{param|}}}| test | do this | do that }} If the parameter "param" equals "test" then "do this" else "do that", again the "do that" can be omitted.
If you look at the line(s) starting with "|a-perfec2=" in your "User:Sarri.greek/lab/temp θεωρώ" you will see both of these "#if" statements used - they are nested one inside the other, explanation:
a. "#if:" if "a-perfect-2" exists
b. - - - - then "#ifif "a-perfect-2" equals a "hyphen"
c. - - - - - - - - then "do nothing"
d. - - - - - - - - else print έχω "a-perfect-2" etc
e. - - - - else ("a-perfect-2" doesn't exist) print έχω "p-perf-part|}}}ημένο" etc
a. "#if:" if "a-perfect-2" exists 
b. - - - - then "#ifif "a-perfect-2" equals a "hyphen"   
c. - - - - - - - - then "do nothing"
d. - - - - - - - - else print έχω "a-perfect-2" etc
e. - - - - else ("a-perfect-2" doesn't exist) print έχω "p-perf-part|}}}ημένο" etc

Sorry about the lecture! I've got to log off now for a while and hope to get back later this morning. — Saltmarsh. 06:06, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

@Saltmarsh: THANK YOUuuuu:) sarri.greek (talk) 06:18, 1 April 2018 (UTC)
@Sarri.greek Looks good, well done. Do you have any outstanding problems with it? — Saltmarsh. 05:08, 2 April 2018 (UTC)
Goodmorning! NO, no problem, because my teacher, @Saltmarsh:, is very good. The teacher may have though! I have written my concerns at the documentation. Also, I have used some nobr, just for fun! sarri.greek (talk) 05:11, 2 April 2018 (UTC)
1. Is the imperfect always going to be a problem (and sometimes the simple past)?
2. How many separate 2nd cat templates do you visualise needing?
Saltmarsh. 05:27, 2 April 2018 (UTC)
@Saltmarsh: I checked 73-74-75 verbs from Iordandiou index A-Δ and there are lots with ONLY Present and Imperfect and nothing else. At notes#sub-groups I need 3 variations (except the Act and Pass tables). But if you make ONE 'Custom' table, the anticipated variations of allll other verbs will be ok? It izzz crazzzy... sarri.greek (talk) 05:33, 2 April 2018 (UTC)
Is the table at {{User:Saltmarsh/template1a}} suitable? Warning - I'm still developing it, but it probably won't change today as I'm moving the new "conj" templates to "conjug" — Saltmarsh. 05:41, 2 April 2018 (UTC)
@Saltmarsh: something is wrong with the columns, missing line at Aspects, 2sg etc are displaced. sarri.greek (talk) 05:47, 2 April 2018 (UTC)
You mean my table:1a? If so I've just changed the output slightly since there is no perfective. — Saltmarsh. 05:50, 2 April 2018 (UTC)
@Saltmarsh: comparing template1a with Template:el-conj-2-1st-act I see |colspan="3" instead of "2". What is o/p ??? sarri.greek (talk) 05:53, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

A yes, @Saltmarsh: I see. Yes, ok, I would need blank (long dashes) at the missing imperatives too. I thought something was supposed to be there. At future too. sarri.greek (talk) 05:58, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

o/p = output (on screen) — Saltmarsh. 06:01, 2 April 2018 (UTC)
 !! Thank you. Is o/p a possible lemma? sarri.greek (talk) 06:05, 2 April 2018 (UTC)


I cannot find a source for the conjugation of πείθω and αναπαριστάνω - please could you check what I have done. Thanks — Saltmarsh. 17:00, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

ancient greek pottery[edit]

Ancient greek pottery

Is there any place to put this? @Erutuon, JohnC5 Thanks. sarri.greek (talk) 11:23, 2 May 2018 (UTC)

There doesn't seem to be a category for pottery (the only sort-of related category may be en:Containers), so you could create an Appendix page: perhaps titled Appendix:Ancient Greek pottery terms. It is a quite specific topic, but there are quite specific English appendices, so that shouldn't be a problem. (I wonder if the Thesaurus namespace allows pages like this or not.) — Eru·tuon 19:21, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
Thank you @Erutuon:. I see in Category:Ancient Greek appendices that you have things for grammar only. It does not fit. I am NOT an archaeologist, my list is amateur copy-paste. So, I shall just add it at my User pages. By the way, I see in Category:English glossaries, some, for very specific interests. (Would be lovely to have Glossaries for specific books or authors too -an appendix to wikisource!). Thank you, for your response. sarri.greek (talk) 21:23, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
You needn't limit yourself to the types of Ancient Greek appendix that already exist. Ancient Greek can have glossaries like English does, and you can put them in the appendix category for now. But it doesn't hurt to put it in your userspace either. — Eru·tuon 00:58, 3 May 2018 (UTC)


Instead of using 'folsky' or 'learned', the way I've always done it is to call these types of words 'colloquial' and 'formal' respectively. I've also used 'informal' for 'laikotropo'. 'Learned' could also be 'dated' or 'archaic' if that applies. Rossyxan (talk) 11:40, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

O Ross! @Rossyxan nice to see you... can I move this at my Talk? I would like to ask you a lot about labels etc. λαϊκότροπο has been a problem for me: it is NOT colloquial... And about 'learned' (instead of archaic), for αρχαιότροπο... big problem... Could you be a darling and take a look (you do not have to read it all, just take a look at my questions while I move this? And I found Appendix:Greek_abbreviations where we can crystallize things? Thanksss. sarri.greek (talk) 11:55, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

Here we are! @Saltmarsh, @Rossyxan and ping, whoever wants to add translations: Ross, I have been struggling with these labels for sooo long. And you have a talent for translation... Lets make a list and we can add favourite translations? This naming-categories/labels will make life easier for future editors, I think.

greek terms[edit]

GREEK TERMS to english:

  • επίσημο ύφος λόγου
    • ...
  • λόγιο
    • Learned is the word Salt, suggested, and indeed, is it not λόγιος for an Anglophone? I tried intellectual but is no good. sarri.greek (talk) 12:27, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
      • Formal? It's what I use any time I encounter this in dictionaries. Rossyxan (talk) 16:38, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
    • ...
  • αρχαϊκός v. αρχαιότροπος
    • for greek lang, these two are very different: archaic is out of use. the αρχαιότροπο is like aaaaaalll the 'learned'??? verbs we use very often: επιλύω, καταλύω, ο υπογράφων, τα δηλωθέντα εισοδήματα... What are we going to call all these??? sarri.greek (talk) 12:27, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
  • αρχαιόκλιτο
    • inflection in the fashion of Ancient Greek.sarri.greek (talk) 12:27, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
  • σε προφορικό λόγο
    • colloquial. Is there a difference with informal and with 'λαϊκότροπο'? The Appendix:Glossary does not help me much. e.g. λυνόντουσαν is more colloquial than λύνονταν. But it is not λαϊκότροπο, or informal. λυνόντανε, λυνόσαντε is λαϊκό, μάγκικο and dialectal. sarri.greek (talk) 12:27, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
    • ...
  • oικείο
    • Colloquial or informal, depending on how I feel the word is used in Greek. For example τρελοκομείο, I've marked as informal Rossyxan (talk) 16:38, 13 May 2018 (UTC)


  • λαϊκό, λαϊκότροπο v. informal, and v. δημοτική
    • it is not slang, it is something like low-class, but has a colour of δημώδες... I found the word folksy at el.wiktionary el:λαϊκότροπος and I rejoiced... Any other suggestions? Ross! find us a good word here. sarri.greek (talk) 12:27, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
    • Ross! @Rossyxan Yes, I see your diff The thing is: I may speak informally, with colloquial words, but that doesn't make it λαϊκό. O please, find some good word for it!!! Yes it IS informal. But more than that. I'll make a list of those. Ufff... we need something for λαϊκό, dictionaries have it again and again... sarri.greek (talk) 16:33, 13 May 2018 (UTC)


  • 'δύσχρηστος (τύπος) for inflectional forms
    • It is not ungrammatical; on the contrary: It may be grammatically correct (not a misconstruction), but people do not use it because it is δύσχρησος = literally: difficult, uncomfortable to utter. ???? translation?? sarri.greek (talk) 07:23, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
    • awkward??? sarri.greek (talk) 16:33, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
      • I would tend to use the 'rare' label before such terms... as while they exist, they are, as Greek Wiktionary says 'difficult to say' or 'difficult to get one's tongue around' - words like 'τυροπιτών' for example or other genitive plurals Greek people might avoid as they're too unwieldy or awkward to say.Rossyxan (talk) 16:38, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

english terms[edit]

ENGLISH TERMS to greek: (Described at the Category:Greek terms by usage

  • archaic
    • αρχαϊκός to me = ultra ancient, pre-classical. (like Homer and before)sarri.greek (talk) 12:27, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
    • ...
  • dated
    • παρωχημένο? e.g. ο κάτωθι υπογεγραμμένος. We don't use it anymore? sarri.greek (talk) 12:27, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
  • obsolete
    • ...

Anybody else has any ideas? sarri.greek (talk) 12:27, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

Hello, I'm allowing myself to join the discussion :). Another label I've met is αρχαιοπρεπής… I have interested myself with these label in the past, but I have not been able to find any definite answer as to what is what. And it seems more complex than καθαρεύουσα vs δημοτική. In the Babiniotis dictionary, the following main distinctions are made:
  • ύφος και συχνότητα της χρήσης (αρχαιοπρεπές, λόγιο, λαϊκο, οικείο, σπάνιο, κ.λπ.)
  • πού (λογοτεχνία, διάλεκτοι, αργκό, κ.λπ.)
  • γιατί (ειρωνική, χρήση, υβριστική, κ.λπ.)
It's on page 30–31 of the dictionary. Of course, I'm sure each dictionary uses its own vocabulary… I've also found a related question on the web: here. — Orgyn (talk) 13:55, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
Hello @Orgyn:! I have seen your work, and it is very nice to meet you. Thank you, thank you for your notes, and the link (I'll study it).
Let's translate all these terms! If everyone adds a translation for each word, maybe we will be able to end up with ONE word for each Category. Maybe make this list in a separate page? A...Z? @Rossyxan has good ideas! @Saltmarsh? What do you think? I am having nightmares with αρχαίος-αρχαϊκός-αρχαΐζων-αρχαιοπρεπής-αρχαιόκλιτος, because archaic for an Anglophone is something different...
Orgyn, I am trying to add more DSMG and Babiniotis labels at Appendix:Greek abbreviations (Saltmarsh made this page) Please could you help (I have wave written SO many PLEASE HELP notes! Ross, you too? sarri.greek (talk) 14:15, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
@Sarri.greek, Orgyn, Rossyxan — Shouldn't the terms in context labels when used with Greek terms, have the same meaning and understanding as they have when they are used with English ones? ie Archaic (as seen in glossary) not αρχαίος (Babiniotis says <= 400BCE). We should use different terms OR expand the label. Perhaps for historical:
  • (classical Greek)
  • (mediaeval Greek) etc
for SMG terms I think it will take a native Greek to make a judgement using the rules written for English terms, I certainly couldn't do it!
Saltmarsh. 06:03, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
Generally, I'd use grc ("Ancient Greek", or "αρχαία", αρχ.) for before 300 BC; grc-koi ("Koine Greek", "μεταγενέστερη" or μτγν.) for 300 BC - 300 AD and gkm ("Byzantine Greek", "μεσαιωνική" or μσν.) for anything between about 300 AD to the end of Katharevousa. At least this is what Babiniotis uses when explaining the etymologies Rossyxan (talk) 17:41, 21 May 2018 (UTC)


...continuing from english terms... No problem @Rossyxan, Orgyn, Saltmarsh with 'αρχαίος'=ancient. The labelling of historical periods is OK as Ross puts it (with Med ending at c.1700 I guess). The problems arise with the character, the flavour of the word.
Category:Greek terms with archaic senses What does this mean? senses? I understand: Greek archaic terms. or Greek terms in archaic form. As Salt points out, the 'archaic at glossary)= no longer used... like 'thy'... = an archaism for an English reader. But αρχαϊκός for greek, is different, no? It is preclassical antiquity, or very very ancient.
Αρχαΐζων τύπος, αρχαΐζουσα γλώσσα = ultra mimicking the ancient language. The message to the reader is can he use it or not? Some, but not all Katharevousa expressions are not αρχαϊκές (the ancients did not have these expressions, only the words), but αρχαΐζουσες = quasi ancient, in the fashion of ancient, dated, near obsolete, extreme (ο κάτωθι υπογεγραμμένος: nobody uses it anymore). But κεκλεισμένων των θυρών=αρχαιότροπη is 'ancientlike', but very frequently used. Bab and DSMG call them λόγιο. Salt proposes learned, which is accurate. I proposed 'antique' but... it reminds of an antique shop. Ross proposed formal for all these expressions. sarri.greek (talk) 18:17, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
PS Please check Αιγίνης: is it ok to distinguish the two: Αιγίνης=formal, Katharevousa (it is not an archaism), Αίγινας=standard? or...? There are so many of those. By standard,I mean standard modern greek. sarri.greek (talk) 19:27, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

  • @Rossyxan, Orgyn, Sarri.greek I would imagine that most Greek terms fall into the similar sense/usage categories as English, my Greek is not up to doing this for Greek terms, unless the dictionary advises me. And I suspect that if 10 aspiring lexicographers discussed how to classify a word there would be at least 11 opinions.
  • I don't think that antique would not be recognised by readers as a word descriptive. Archaic has to be used with the same sense that it is used (I assume) for all other languages, whatever αρχαϊκός means in Greek. Learned should I have (should we use) literary? This would be for terms rarely used in everyday life but encountered in poetry and the like (they amy well be archaic as well). I translated λόγ-ιος - perhaps I should have used λογ-οτεχηνικο!
  • I have assumed that formal as the opposite of informal or colloquial, but similar to learned; I just looked up English formal terms and found badious (chestnut coloured) an unknown word (to me) and then find it's used in botanical texts, where it is extremely useful - perhaps we should follow Rossyxan's advice.
Saltmarsh. 05:39, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

New way of doing etymologies needed[edit]

Any ideas on Greek words that were first invented in foreign languages but that Modern Greek has embraced as its own? I am thinking of words like ψυχοθεραπεία; in other words what Babinitios calls "ελληνογενής ξένος όρος". For now, I just have to say it's derived from French/German/etc and give the Ancient Greek explanation after Rossyxan (talk) 16:32, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

You are so fast @Rossyxan! errr.. ψυχοθεραπεία is αντιδάνειο = twice borrowing or reborrowing Category:Greek twice-borrowed terms. I would just add the Cat, manually. I was TOLD to use only {af|el|.... from now on. And... can I move this to my Talk page please? sarri.greek (talk) 17:00, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
I thought about it again @Rossyxan Yes, Bab distinguishes "ελληνογενής ξένος όρος" (hellenogenous foreign term) from αντιδάνειο (reborrowing), i.e. the loan was of the compounds, not of the word as a whole (ψυχή θεραπεία). I have no idea if there is a term in English @Per utramque cavernam! Is there? latino-genous helleno-genous? something like that? Also, I was looking for the term διεθνισμός (intralingual? internationalism?) e.g. the word virtual which spread as a loan in many languages. sarri.greek (talk) 22:40, 25 May 2018 (UTC)


I shall be back with those conjugations, I am presently sidetracked with α-verbs and adding to and amending the table. — Saltmarsh. 04:58, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

Hello @Saltmarsh: huge task this Appendix! I doing participles today, and en route some verbs: Do you want me to add them with some signal at your appendix? e.g. done: διαισθάνομαι προαισθάνομαι (I ll take away that horrible παραστέκω from there) and now doing: στύβω στείβω στίβω and τρίβω (σκάβω CAT) About the A-verbs: αηδιάζω does not have passive. sarri.greek (talk) 14:44, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
Nice to hear from you @Sarri.greek - the appendix is open to all to edit, so add away. And yes, it'll take a while just to do the As ! — Saltmarsh. 14:57, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
Hey, @Saltmarsh: I just saw your αγγελμένος coming in!... I'll be around sarri.greek (talk) 14:59, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
@Sarri.greek Perhaps we just need to warn one another if we're active on that page - I won't be there for the next few hours now. — Saltmarsh. 15:04, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
@Saltmarsh at αγγέλλω there is an αγγέλω form mentioned at Alternatives: I do not think there is such a form (it is either αγγελλ- or αγγειλ- but never seen αγγελω. sarri.greek (talk) 15:06, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
@Sarri.greek Lookin at Google gives 34000, somebody is using it? And then I find out it's a name, is that so? — Saltmarsh. 15:19, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
@Saltmarsh check Babiniotis comment in that Box of his. It is a standard mistake, that's why he put that comment. ALSO: The others: DSMG disagree with Bab, that αγγέλλω is by itself a modern greek verb at all. DSMG gives only Present, and Iordanidou DOES NOT have it at all at her index: only as compound αναγγέλλω. It's a difficult one.... I assure you, that αγγέλω should be discussed only as a common minsconstruction. sarri.greek (talk) 15:24, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Right you are! I'll remove it! — Saltmarsh. 15:26, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

@Saltmarsh,oh I think it should be discussed: you know how obsessed I am with removing random mistakes, but this is not: people must know about it. The only objection I have, is that misconstructions appear in Categories: Lemmas, Nouns, Verbs, etc... and even IIIII was confused once, seeing one over there: Can't you take it offffff all such Cats, and have it ONLY at Misspellings and Misconstructions???? sarri.greek (talk) 15:29, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
@Sarri.greek The "lemma cat" is assigned by the headword template, and that is needed I think — Saltmarsh. 15:32, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
@Saltmarsh Even if people see it at google they trust, ahhhh Wiktionary has it, it is OK, they do not check: Isnt there a Hidden something category to put all those there? only found when one actually gets IN Wiktionary lemma which mentions it: I brought this up at Grease, at Tea, at Youname it... they think it is normal to have people BELIEVE to Wiktionary lemmata which are nonexistent. I really object to that. sarri.greek (talk) 15:35, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
@Sarri.greek Sorry - Windows wanted to update, the last time I ignored this (admittedly with the previous version) I had to reload everything again. There is a category - Category:Greek misspellings - I don't think there is a problem if everywhere the word appears it is labelled as a misspelling. In fact this may be better, as otherwise it might be assumed that the word is missing. — Saltmarsh. 04:42, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
Salt, @Saltmarsh I posted this at Beer but as you predicted, it is normal to have imaginary words in common sight. :) sarri.greek (talk) 10:02, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

greek names[edit]

...[about Αγγέλω]...Hopefully people will follow the link and find out the truth. I take it that capitalised "Αγγέλω" is an indeclinable form of Angelo, - = Αγγέλα (Άγγελος for women)? — Saltmarsh. 10:49, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

@Saltmarsh Αγγέλω is a very very vernacular form of fem.Αγγέλα (Angela, to match Άγγελος). Decl: η Αγγέλω, της Αγγέλως, την Αγγέλω, έ Αγγέλω! Also fem. is Αγγελική but no equivalent masc Αγγελικός exists as given name. About these -ω fem: Some are quite frequent (η Μάρω instead of Μαρία), some are vernacular (η Αγγέλω), some are affectionate (η/το Λενιώ for Ελένη Helen), and if someone wanted to mock me, he would call me η Κατέρω, and if he liked me: το Κατερινιώ in neutral. sarri.greek (talk) 11:01, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
Ευχαριστώ :) I'll create it. — Saltmarsh. 11:07, 20 May 2018 (UTC)


Do you think you would add {{Babel}} to your user page? It would be useful. Babel is more useful in wikt than Wikipedia, I think. --Dan Polansky (talk) 09:47, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

@Dan Polansky: I did add my (2) Categories the other day: User:this, that. I thought it is OK? I speak one and a half language... I feel silly to put these nice big Babel boxes :) But, if is it obligatory... you may add them. Thanks for your concern. sarri.greek (talk) 09:51, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
It is not obligatory, just very useful. It makes it very quick to find the languages a user speaks. --Dan Polansky (talk) 09:53, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
So, @Dan Polansky:, were you looking up something greek? sarri.greek (talk) 09:56, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
There are two kinds of people: those who readily add Babel when asked and those who don't. Conversations with the latter almost never lead to any useful result. --Dan Polansky (talk) 09:59, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
What a terrible thing to say! Kaixinguo~enwiktionary (talk) 10:52, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
Hi Kai @Kaixinguo~enwiktionary: nice to see you. It's ok. Some like Babel, some don't. Thing is... about these boxes, I never know what languages they represent, because I do not know the codes. sarri.greek (talk) 11:17, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
I apologize if I was impolite; I fear I have such a tendency and I do not get a good feel for these kinds of things. In the case you would decide to add Babel (not mandatory!), you might say {{Babel|el}}, for a start; then you would not have to make any guesses about the codes or the like. Or if you like, {{Babel|el|en-3}} would also indicated your English level. --Dan Polansky (talk) 11:40, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
It's ok, thank you @Dan Polansky: you want to help new users. To be honest, I don't like Babels, probably because I am jealous of all these people speaking 10 languages... So, I shall abstain,for the moment, but I'll think about it. Thank you, sarri.greek (talk) 11:49, 20 May 2018 (UTC)


Hi, yes κυρογενιά is for the ancestry/lineage of the grandmother as it comes from κυρούλα (grandmother in Mani). I have found the information here (download the pdf). Page numbered 33: Λέξεις παράγωγες και σύνθετες απ' αυτή είναι η "κυρογενιά" (= το γένος τής γιαγιάς), η "ανογενιά" (= το γένος τής μητέρας) η "πεθερογενιά" (= το γένος του πεθερού). Good read ;). — Orgyn (talk) 14:08, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

 !!! @Orgyn: Merci! (I see you are francophone, I am afraid my French is terrible). Great source. I thought it derived from κύρης (father). Why not refer to your source at your κυρογενιά page! (visitors might doubt: so much talk in the internet... But your source is so very good. The has nice pdfs) Thank you! sarri.greek (talk) 14:31, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
Yes that's also what I thought when I first heard the term… I've added a link to the thesis in the further reading section ;). — Orgyn (talk) 12:41, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

June questions[edit]

@Saltmarsh Καλό μήνα! Σας περιμένω όλους! I hope you will :-) Got some questions κυριακάτικα:

  • 1 passive2 as in στενοχωρώ headline (at {{el-verb}}) is not working
  • 2 at Template:el-conjug-1st, at [ -ομε] and at ( -όμαστε) ( -όσαστε): is this space intentional?
  • 3 participles {{el-participle of}}: Salt, could you check if these additions would be ok? Could they be added?
    • 1) I add Past, so: there are now the sufficient 3 subcats: Present. Past. Perfect. They cover everything.
    • 2) Could you add to all: Category:Greek lemmas. (we do this manually now, with {cln|el|lemmas}
      • or should this be at el-part ???
<onlyinclude><!-- = without 'Greek lemmas' (it is done) / no past=past (one is OK)

-->{{ #switch: {{{2}}} <!--
   -->|perfect|perf = ''Perfect [[Appendix:Glossary#participle|participle]] of'' {{m|el|{{{1}}}}}<!--
      -->{{#if:{{NAMESPACE}}||[[Category:Greek lemmas]] [[Category:Greek perfect participles]]}}<!--
   -->|past|past = ''Past [[Appendix:Glossary#participle|participle]] of'' {{m|el|{{{1}}}}}<!--
      -->{{#if:{{NAMESPACE}}||[[Category:Greek lemmas]] [[Category:Greek past participles]]}}<!--
   -->|present|pres = ''Present [[Appendix:Glossary#participle|participle]] of'' {{m|el|{{{1}}}}}<!--
      -->{{#if:{{NAMESPACE}}||[[Category:Greek lemmas]] [[Category:Greek present participles]]}}<!--
   -->|#default = ''[[Appendix:Glossary#participle|Participle]] of'' {{m|el|{{{1}}}}}<!--
      -->{{#if:{{NAMESPACE}}||[[Category:Greek lemmas]] [[Category:Greek participles]]}}<!--
-->{{#if:{{{gloss|}}}|;  "{{{gloss|}}}"}}<!--
-->{{#if:{{{nodot|}}}| |.}}<!--

  • I was looking here by chance - as you said some time ago "ping" does not always work!
  • passive2 is now back in {{el-verb}}, I'm not sure what happened to it.
  • I'll have a look at the "participle" categorisation allocation when I have finished with 1st conjugation tables.
  • the extra facilities to be added to {{el-conjug-1st}} are almost ready. When you have time I would be very grateful if you could try them out. The template is {{User:Saltmarsh/template1}} — indication of how to use it can be seen at User:Saltmarsh/template1b.
  • Note you can now add up to 3 individual referenced footnotes!!!
Saltmarsh. 06:44, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
Yeeeesss!! @Saltmarsh I must move from participles to verbs! (but they are so difficult: Thank you for all your efforts! sarri.greek (talk) 06:47, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Take your time, you've lots to do - ping worked that time! — Saltmarsh. 06:51, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

4 June[edit]

(1) {{el-part}} now categorises participles as lemmas, it also now accepts perf & pres as alternative, shortened tense forms.
(2) {{el-conjug-1st}} can now blank whole past tenses, and you can use freetext in individual cells
(3) Your switch statement above looks OK to me - try it out (or I will if you prefer); incidentally, the line beginning "|past|past =" need only be "|past =" (ie the 2nd |past is unnecessary)
Saltmarsh. 10:57, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
HOW nice of you @Saltmarsh to take the time to deal with participles too. past=past yes, thank you. VERBSSS: yes yes, I tried at διακόπτω it is great. With the new advanced style, so much can be done! Salt, I need to concentrate more to my preparation, and you know how addictive wiktionary can be. I cannot log in too much, only weekends; until the end of June. After that, I can proofread verbs, a...z or by category, whatever you like. Thank you! Great work! sarri.greek (talk) 12:09, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

6 June[edit]

Sarri - I hope that all goes well — I have now brought all the Category:Greek verb inflection-table templates (new) into line withthe "advanced" parameters found in {{el-conjug-1st}}. But note: (1) "el-conjug-act-imperfective" is now correctly named {{el-conjug-1st-act-imperfective}}; and (b) I have deleted the "long" template because it was unused, and the same effect can be achieved by using the "-act" template followed by the "-pass" one. This may save maintenance time in future! — Saltmarsh. 05:58, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

June 13[edit]

I have just been looking at the Iordanidou's passive imperfect forms. According to her a number (αναγγέλλω for example) lack the -όμασταν/-όσασταν/-όντουσαν forms. I was going to do something about this - but seek advice at the oracle first! Any help you can give will be greatly appreciated. — Saltmarsh. 05:50, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

About passive imperfect plural endings -όμασταν v. -όμαστε. @Saltmarsh. Iordanidou dislikes -όμασταν -όσασταν plural endings throughout her whole verb-dictionary. She always places them as second choice, and in some verbs as here, αναγγέλλω (αναγγέλλομαι#86) she insists on the -όμαστε ending completely omitting -όμασταν.
For verb-conjug generally: Most of the other grammars (I have a detailed reference list) prefer the -όμασταν/-όσασταν types as first, and the -όμαστε-όσαστε as second option. Including Holton. I personally avoid -όμαστε types because they coincide with Present: λυνόμαστε = we untie ourselves NOW. Imperfect: λυνόμασταν yesterday: λυνόμαστε is not wrong, but no one is going to understand Past.
Now, about αναγγελλόμαστε: it is SO rare (even in Present), I can find no grammar with its forms written out. (3 hits at google, all present, none imperfect). I do not understand why Iord. insists on them. If I neeeed to say this imperfect, I will say αναγγελλόμασταν, and in parenthesis (αναγγελόμαστε) as usual. Note: in ancient greek the distinction is made by the augment: ἀγγελλόμεθα is present, ἠγγελλόμεθα is imperfect. Here is an ux as I would say it:
Αναγγελλόμασταν επί μισή ώρα από τη γραμματέα, αλλά ο υπουργός δεν μας δεχότανε.
Anangellómastan epí misí óra apó ti grammatéa, allá o ypourgós den mas dechótane.
We were being announced by the secretary for half an hour, but the minister would not receive us.
Of course, I would have preferred to say: Η γραμματέας μάς ανήγγειλλε επί μισή ώρα.. The secretary was announcing us for half an hour...
PS some compound imperatives need reviewing, I'll try to give a quick look tomorrow. I am practicing like mad, my memory and my technique is not what it used to be 10 years ago, so I need to work harder now. sarri.greek (talk) 00:33, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
@Sarri.greek Thank you for fixing έρπω and thanks for the above, I shall read and digest your words - and wait a couple of weeks before asking more. Don't overdo it !! — Saltmarsh. 06:01, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
Good morning @Saltmarsh I am here! No, do ask, I ll do it:) sarri.greek (talk) 06:02, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
Γεια @Sarri.greek - I will assume in future that -ασταν as the norm. We can perhaps revisit any of Iord's paradigms later. In English some authors use the "historic present" (actually the present tense) to introduce a sense of immediacy into their writing - fine. Annoyingly (to me) some broadcasters use this continuously, when a past tense would be more correct - they may consider that it livens up their words, I don't! — Saltmarsh. 06:13, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
Yes, @Saltmarsh historic present is quite dramatic, I guess in many languages. (Especailly with football broadcasters). But here, the -όμασταν, -όμαστε thing, is different. Yes, I vote for -όμασταν as first option:) sarri.greek (talk) 06:17, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

last but not least[edit]

Hi there!
How do you mean the question "where do you want them"?
The phrases are German (lang-code de) and not necessarily English (lang-code en), so they are translations and not English alternative forms.
If you were asking for choosing a main form: only has "last, not least" and "last, but not least" (with comma), but "last not least", "last but not least" (without comma) seemed to me to be more common (by a short superficial google books search). I don't care, which sould be the main entry and which should be alternative form. But without an entry giving the alternative form, it would IMHO be misleading to only give one form as translation and to omit the other, that is, IMHO the alternative forms should be moved if the main entry exist and not be deleted before. - 16:52, 27 June 2018 (UTC)¨

@ I could never imagine English in another language, sorry. I thought you wanted them as alternative forms in the English section. (we use English too, in greek)... Truth is: I missed you; There is NO WAY to follow your educative contributions: only by chance. I call you 84.161. Would you like it as Username? I feel safer, when you are around. Thank you! sarri.greek (talk) 17:16, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
  • That ping didn't work (and it's not a matter of changing IPs).
  • Some sources state that "last not least" is German and not even English, i.e. that it's a pseudo-anglicism:
    • Sebastian Knospe in Pseudo-English. Studies on False Anglicisms in Europe. Edited by Cristiano uriassi and Henrik Gottlieb (Language Contact and Bilingualism vol. 9), 2015, p. 106: "and one supra-lexical pseudo-Anglicism, i.e. last not least, were found"
    • Alexander Onysko, Anglicisms in German. Borrowing, Lexical Productivity, and Written Codeswitching (Linguistik Impulse & Tendenzen), 2007, p. 53: "and [German] last not least (E. [i.e. English] last but not least)"
    • [1]: "the pseudo-English idiom “last not least"
  • Thank you very much. I'm glad, if I could help.
-[x] 20:08, 27 June 2018 (UTC)


84, Thank you, I did not mean to burden you with writing so many sources. I trust you without sources too.
I was hinting to your elusiveness.
Elusive, υπερκαλλιεύθραυστος

We seek him here, we seek him there
we seek him dans le wiktionnaire
Is he in Latin? Is he in Hell?
Is he in German? We cannot tell.

sarri.greek (talk) 20:17, 27 June 2018 (UTC)