Wiktionary:Tea room/2018/July

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discussion rooms: Tea roomEtym. scr.Info deskBeer parlourGrease pit ← June 2018 · July 2018 · August 2018 → · (current)


I wish to change the English Language Entry for silver taking out the Indo-European source word and adding the words: "The replacement of Indo-European *H¹erĝṇtom in Germanic has been thought to be linked to increasing metalurgical sophistication." To add "but has been considered phonologically and geographically improbable" to the discussion of an Akkadian source also inserting the Akkadian script. I also wish to cite references for this - any problem if I add this to the Etymology bit or should I put it under further reading? Is there any problem with me doing this?

No response so I've gone ahead and done it.

For future reference, posts about etymologies should go in the WT:Etymology scriptorium. Andrew Sheedy (talk) 23:04, 6 July 2018 (UTC)


@Mocha2007 pointed out on the talk page that the "humorous misspelling of girl" definition would seem to be a separate etymology.

I'm not really sure how we should handle it: on the one hand, it's definitely derived from girl, but on the other, it's also definitely derived from grill. This is a pun, which takes its humor from simultaneously being (sort of) both of two different terms or senses.

Is this really a lexical form of either girl or grill, or is it merely the substitution of one lexically-unchanged word for another in order to make a joke?

I see that we have ladies and germs from "Good evening, ladies and germs", but we don't have a sense at germ for "(humorous) gentleman", and we don't have "I resemble that remark" or a sense at resemble for "(humorous) resent". Chuck Entz (talk) 04:37, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

Is there anything prohibiting an etymology along the lines of: "Humorous misspelling of girl influenced by the spelling of grill"? Mocha2007 (talk) 17:04, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

Examples of where this is used would help. "I resemble that remark" seems not to be using "resemble" to mean "resent", but rather to be using it to mean "resemble" and humorously replacing disagreement with a remark with agreement. It seems no more entry-worthy than "I resent that remark". "Ladies and germs" seems like it probably is as idiomatic as "ladies and gents". To the extent it exists, a separate etymology section for this (grill) seems fine, especially as the page already has several, so it's possibly unclear which of them girl is being respelled to resemble (but again, examples might help clarify). - -sche (discuss) 17:20, 1 July 2018 (UTC)
"I resemble that remark" = "I am like or similar to that remark"? It doesn't make sense to simply insert the one current sense we have for resemble in there, and it certainly sounds like a new, unfamiliar sense to my ear.--Prosfilaes (talk) 22:24, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

grill 2: obsolescence[edit]

Are the "provoke", "terrify", "shiver" and "snarl" senses obsolete? Century marks the first as obsolete even in its (1910s) day, so I've added a tag, but I suspect the others may also be no longer used. Other dictionaries I checked don't even have them. - -sche (discuss) 17:17, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

I think they should be labeled as obsolete until someone produces contrary evidence, eg, attestation of entry from OED, DARE or other high-quality authority.
But the only real problem is that someone might come across the term, eg, in Wikisaurus, and decide to use it in an entry, ie, as part of a gloss. I don't think an obsolete definition should ever be used in a list of synonyms without the appropriate qualifier. I hope it isn't a common problem, as it would be hard to clean up. DCDuring (talk) 17:59, 1 July 2018 (UTC)
With the search "Wikisaurus: grill" I found four pages that used grill, none with the offending definition. OTOH, looking at Wikisaurus:frighten (for the "terrify" gloss), I found affright and harrow without any qualifier label, though fray is labelled "archaic". DCDuring (talk) 18:14, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

"what all you can do"[edit]

Seen today: "here's what all you can do with (such-and-such a tool)", i.e. the totality of what can be done with it. Seems to be US usage; reminds me of y'all. Should we cover this at all somehow, or even at what all? Equinox 18:21, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

Good catch. what all at OneLook Dictionary Search shows only MWOnline (and Urban Dictionary) as having a real entry. MWOnline defines it as "whatnot". For many usages "whatever" seems good too, possibly covered in whatever#Pronoun.
It is probably a use of all. It derives from, extends from all in "We all wanted to come visit." It is not limited to use with pronouns. Proper nouns (plural) and common nouns (plural) also accept all in the right sense, I think. "The Smiths all wanted to visit." "The drivers all wanted to visit." "The cars all ran out of gas." DCDuring (talk) 20:09, 1 July 2018 (UTC)
What all seems to allow for a large number of things, whereas whatever seems to allow for any one thing. Whatnot does seem closer. DCDuring (talk) 20:12, 1 July 2018 (UTC)
"Whatnot" doesn't seem like a substitutable definition, though, since it doesn't seem possible to say "here's whatnot you can do with it". And in order to substitute "what all" into the usexes at "whatnot", it seems it might be necessary to add "else" (examples from Google Books: "cigarette stubs and chewing gum wrappers and Babe Ruth wrappers and what all else", "knowing the love that flows within this family, our history, and what all else, I'll admit I was hurt").
I'm not sure whether it should be at what all and who all or at all. The similarity to we all that you mention, and the fact that I would expect although I can't find evidence(!) that one could also less frequently express "why all they did it and how all they did it", would suggest it could be at all. But the lemming principle suggests we should at least have redirects at what all, etc, if we don't lemmatize there.
Inconsistently, Merriam-Webster does not have an entry for who all and instead covers it with a definition and usex at all which seem just as applicable to what all.
- -sche (discuss) 15:23, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
  • Not in the OED, but they do have who-all, which is similar. Ƿidsiþ 09:35, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
Yale's Grammatical Diversity Project has an example of "where all did he go" from Kanye. They quote McCloskey (2000), Murray and Simon (2006) and DARE as saying that "what all"-type constructions are found in many dialects, including the South, South Midland, and Midland in America, and Scots and Northern Irish in the UK. - -sche (discuss) 15:34, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
I grew up in Texas thinking this was standard. I would add this to "all" because it extends to "what all", "who all", and "where all" (but only these three) to the same effect. But I've never come across an example like the one Equinox gives. I thought it was exclusively interrogative, or interrogative-adjacent (my mind is blanking on the term) as in Yale's example of "tell me what all happened". Ultimateria (talk) 15:53, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
Robert Cirillo, "What all happens when a universal quantifier combines with an interrogative DP", in The Noun Phrase in Romance and Germanic (→ISBN), explores examples of constructions like this in various languages, writing that "British English"—(but compare the claim about Scottish, above!)—"and the Romance languages do not have it, Swedish seems to be evolving away from it, and American English applies it arbitrarily and inconsistently, allowing all to occur only with singular interrogative DPs." He opines that, because not all phrases are actually valid ("*why all", *"how all"; a LinguistList poster adds *"when-all"), those which do occur (he cites "whom all"(!), "what all" and "where all") are "indivisible phrases in the lexcon", "lexical rather than syntactic [...] comparable to lexicalized, 'frozen' expressions". But I think decent arguments have been made above for nonetheless putting this at "all" with senseid-specific redirects. And I can find an example of "how-all": in Football's Best Short Stories (Paul D. Staudohar, 1998), on page 107: "I mean, you could have called us—collect, o'course—jes' to let us know how-all it's a-goin'." This StackExchange thread mentions "which all", and says Indian English also uses these but with plural verbs ("who all were at the party"). - -sche (discuss) 16:23, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
Wouldn't our usual practice be to have both a definition at [[all]] and entries at [[who all]], [[what all]], and [[where all]]? DCDuring (talk) 18:21, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
...would it? It seems to me we'd usually either redirect "what all" et al to a senseid-specific sense of "all" that would cover all these, or have a line at "all" saying "Only in what all, who all, and where all." If this is a general sense of all, then who all etc would be SOP, no? (The fact that different dialects differ on which ones they allow, and on whether they take a singular or a plural verb, could argue for or against or be orthogonal to idiomaticity, I guess.) - -sche (discuss) 19:41, 4 July 2018 (UTC)

Dutch/Low German hard[edit]

Not actually an invitation to 'Dutch hard'. The word 'hard' seems to resist the shift /Vrd/ > /Vːrd/ that exists in these languages, cf. Dutch aard, baard etc. Does anyone have any idea why that is? Korn [kʰũːɘ̃n] (talk) 20:50, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

I don't know the answer, but we also have Dutch flard. Since final d is devoiced, if this is a systematic shift, you would also expect /ɑrt/ > /art/. Examples where such a shift did not happen abound.  --Lambiam 11:54, 4 July 2018 (UTC)

"legal representant"[edit]

Hello, is legal representant considered as a set phrase in English? French Wiktionary has an entry legal representant, but I suspect it is only to translate the French phrase représentant légal (used in law). — Automatik (talk) 10:44, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

Apparemment, on dit plutôt legal representative en anglais : [1], [2]. Per utramque cavernam 11:01, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
Normally "legal representative" DonnanZ (talk) 13:23, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
English representant is considered obsolete. DonnanZ (talk) 13:30, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

Reorganizing the entry for Basque verb izan[edit]

This verb izan can be used as an intransitive copula ("be"), as transitive verb meaning "have", as an auxiliary for intransitive verbs (with finite forms the same as the copula), and as an auxiliary for transitive verbs. It's also used as an auxiliary for intransitive verbs with a dative argument, with a whole different set of finite forms. The dative argument is usually translated by a possessive in English. (These are called nor-nori verbs in Basque.) It's used as an auxiliary with transitive verbs with dative arguments (nor-nork-nori verbs) as well, with yet another set of finite forms. The nori (dative) argument of these verbs sometimes corresponds to an indirect object in English, in other cases to a possessive.

Linguists usually give a separate etymology for the transitive forms even the citation form and participles are the same in standard Basque. Some regional dialects have separate participles for the transitive forms.

The verb has about 1500 inflected forms (not counting hika and subordinate forms) and multiple meanings and usages, so the entry needs to be broken down into subsections somehow to make it easier to follow. I guess, following standard Wiktionary formatting, I can use the etymology to split the entry into two parts. In outline, the result will look like this:

Etymology 1[edit]


izan (intransitive)

  1. to be
    (usage examples)
  2. (auxiliary for intransitive verbs)
    (usage examples)
  3. (auxiliary for intransitive verbs with dative arguments)
    (usage examples)


(Conjugation table for nor verbs)

(Conjugation table for nor-nori verbs)

Etymology 2[edit]

From an unattested earlier form *edun, reconstructed on the basis of the finite forms and the dialectal participle eduki.


izan (transitive)

  1. to have
    (usage examples)
  2. (auxiliary for transitive verbs)
    (usage examples)
  3. (auxiliary for transitive verbs dative arguments)
    (usage examples)


(Conjugation table for nor-nork verbs)

(Conjugation table for nor-nork-nori verbs)


I'd like to split the entry up into four parts, though, with separate sections for the transitive and intransitive forms with nori (datve) agreement, so that the conjugation tables will show up under the relevant definition.

I've only been active on Wiktionary for about two weeks, so I wanted to run this by people here and get some feedback before jumping in and doing a major reorganization of an entry. If anybody has some good ideas about handling the subsections for nori agreement forms, I'd appreciate it. Namnagar (talk) 13:53, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

I would agree with this separation only if there are in fact two separate etymologies. If not, the following structure is fine:
  1. to be
    1. aux.
    2. aux.
  2. to have
    1. aux.
    2. aux.
As for the conjugation tables, there's no problem in putting usage notes between them, explaining in one or two lines which sense each one applies to and any other info that's necessary. I can't really find an example since I don't know of any other languages that have different conjugations for different senses...
Since I'm totally ignorant of Basque, I have to ask: are these four conjugations are completely different or do the last three just have elements that the "nor" table does not? Ultimateria (talk) 16:19, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
The agreement prefixes and suffixes are pretty regular and predictable once once you get the hang how they work. For this verb, the in-between stuff, the variant forms the stem takes, isn't predictable.
Thanks, @Ultimateria:. You reply has been very helpful. And thanks to you and others for cleaning up behind me. I'll go edit the entry shortly and try to make less mistakes! Namnagar (talk) 01:33, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
Part of the reason the conjugations are different is because Basque synthetic verbs agree with the subject, the object, and the indirect object (if present or required by the verb), so eman nion means "I gave it to her", and "I gave them to her" is eman nizkion. Nintzen, "I was", on the other hand, just has nor (intransitive subject) agreement. This all the more confusing because Basque has ergative alignment and there are lots of idiomatic usages. I picked past-tense examples because they're easier to follow and the first-person singular prefix n(i)- is the same in all three.
There are suppletive stems throughout the transitive and intransitive izan paradigms, but there seems to be enough evidence for the transitive and intransitive forms having separate origins to list them under separate etymologies. If this is disputed, we can go with your suggested alternative, breaking the entry down by the the glosses of independent forms. The entry for izan is going to get really complicated once it's fleshed out. Basically, what I care about is making sure we still have a readable entry once we get there. Namnagar (talk) 04:12, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
Wow, I see how that would add up to a lot of verb forms. I would say go ahead and make any changes you see fit to the page, since I can tell you know your stuff (although I definitely appreciate your seeking help before making big changes!). I've added izan to my watchlist so I can check up on it every few days to see if there are any errors. If you need any help with conjugation tables, I'm useless on that front, so you should make a post in the Grease Pit, or you can probably do a lot just by copying and tweaking the existing ones. One last formatting gripe: synonyms should be connected to their respective senses; the trend lately is to use {{synonyms}} for that. Ultimateria (talk) 13:07, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
Thank you, @Ultimateria:! I'll feel a lot better knowing that somebody who knows what they're doing is keeping eye on the entry, because I'll probably make a lot of mistakes. Also, if some of my examples and explanations don't make sense feel free to let me know, and I'll try to make them clearer. Thanks for the heads up about {{synonyms}}. I'm still pretty fuzzy about anything that isn't "Derived" or "Related". I really need to learn how to format "See also" sections, and when they're appropriate.
Anyway, once again, thanks for all your help! Namnagar (talk) 14:30, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
Yes check.svg Done, sort of. I reorganized the entry, with each usage of izan that has different conjugation listed as a separate verb. I hope this will make these entries easier to follow when they're fleshed out more.
Glaring things I know I need to fix: The nor nori table has some layout issues and needs to be replaced. I need to make nor nork and nor nori nork tables. (I'm still learning templates, so this will take me a while.)
The usage notes for izan/egon aren't entirely accurate for northern Basque. Northern varieties do make the same distinction between inherent and temporary qualities, but don't use different verbs. I need to check to make sure I've got the northern usages right before editing that part. I'm not sure how to format the usage examples for this section.
Any feed-back would be welcome! Namnagar (talk) 23:45, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

Another sense of bebop?[edit]

There is currently a verb sense referring to dancing to bebop jazz, but it is commonly used to refer to a type of walking, in an easygoing or maybe even jaunty manner. Would this merit another sense or could it fall under the existing one? I have some cites if that helps:

  • As soon as I'd gulped down my breakfast, I'd bebop over to the sink ...
  • Just about this time Mary Helen came bebopping into the room and plopped down in the other chair.
  • He has a small radio and he plays it full blast as he bebops down the dirt road ... [walking]

-Ultimateria (talk) 16:58, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

are you and we determiners real?[edit]

At you, we have a Determiner section to cover "have you gentlemen come to see the lady?" and "you idiot!" Other dictionaries I checked don't have such a section (though one has a noun section for things like "another you" and "that outfit is so you", which seems equally hard to justify). But are these really determiners, or just uses of the pronoun? Because other pronouns can be used this way, too, e.g. e.g. "y'all fools" and "sing y'all folks a song" are both attested, as is "we Canadians" (which I notice we also have a determiner section for), and not just in English: "wir Deutschen sind eine Nation von Kaffeetrinkern" and "ihr Deutschen seid" and "Du Idiot!", "nous ne consentirons jamais, nous Françaises, à nous transformer en mères gigognes" and "Parisiens, et vous Français de tous rangs et de toutes les classes", etc. - -sche (discuss) 17:18, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

They serve a determinative function, I think, parallel to these, those, as does us. Not all of the English personal pronouns seem to function as determinatives in mainstream English AFAICT, eg, not I/me, he/him, she/her (her possessive is a semantically different determiner.), they/them, so there may be reason to note that we/us and you can. DCDuring (talk) 21:23, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
Good point. I suppose only some of the second-person pronouns function this way, too; e.g. "y'all / all y'all / youse / ye Americans use a lot of fireworks" work(s) this way (in speech and on the web, "you-uns" sometimes does too, but apparently not in CFI-compliant media), but *"you guys / you lot Americans use a lot of fireworks" do(es) not. - -sche (discuss) 03:33, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
CGEL favors the determiner treatment too. DCDuring (talk) 03:02, 4 July 2018 (UTC)

take a shit, give a shit...[edit]

Etymology-wise, why is it that you take a shit when you leave one behind, but when you give a shit (which no one but plants might actually want), it's a good thing?

How did these uses develop?

Similar for take a piss (i.e., "why take?", although I don't think there's an analogous give a piss expression...).


‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 18:32, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

For "take" (American English) read "have" in British English. There is also the crude "(don't) give a fuck". DonnanZ (talk) 18:57, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
Even for have, the semantics are odd: once one does the deed, one doesn't have a shit any longer because it has been left behind. The meaning of the verb (either take or have) has been almost reversed. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 23:48, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
To have a shit is to "have (an episode of) shitting" Leasnam (talk) 22:11, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
Yes, like "having" a dinner party or a psychotic episode. It doesn't particularly imply possession. Equinox 22:18, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
For "take a shit", compare take a leak, take a walk, take a nap, take a break. I think this is take sense #14 ("To experience, undergo, or endure."), maybe subsense #4 (compare the example sentence "I had to take a pee."). As for "give a shit", compare give a damn, give a fuck, give a rat's ass. I'm not exactly sure how this sense of "give" developed, but here's some speculation: if you care a lot about something, you might say you would give anything to have it happen (or not happen). If you don't care at all about something, maybe you could say you wouldn't give a rat's ass; in other words, you wouldn't give anything, because you care so little. Maybe something like that developed into the expressions like "give a shit" that are common now. —Granger (talk · contribs) 05:04, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
Could also include sense #33 "perform, do", which I have expanded just a bit by the addition of "practice", "carry out", "execute" (e.g. an action or task), so take a shit can be thought of as "performing/carrying out/executing a shit (i.e. a defecation)" . Leasnam (talk) 05:51, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
@Granger, I don't think it's sense 14.4, to participate in, and I don't think that sample sentence is appropriate there. The expression take a pee (or take a shit) is nearly always used in a single-person context, whereas participate implies some sort of cooperative endeavor.
@Leasnam, sense 33 seems more likely, but I note that other "activity" expressions using take are more clearly actions, like walk or vacation or voyage, whereas shit when preceded by an article parses more as a physical thing.
Hmm...I'm not so sure. What do you make of take a poop ? It wouldn't quite be the same if I said take a turd (which is a physical thing), so clearly shit and poop here are actions (cf. "that was a good shit this morning" or "I took a loooong shit" --the piece of shit wasn't long, but the duration of the activity of shitting was), see, not physical things, right ? Leasnam (talk) 08:57, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
@Both, all, I am curious about the historical development of this particular phrasing. Aside from specific excretory functions, I cannot think of other cases where one takes something in order to get rid of it. I don't think one takes a puke, for instance. At a bare minimum, this is a semantic oddity. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 06:37, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
I can't help but think that reasoning take to somehow mean "get rid of, give" is a step in the wrong direction...it doesn't mean "give" that at all. I think we may be incorrectly re-analysing it and getting ourselves lost... take a shit is exactly like take a nap, take a break, take a rest, take vengeance and take a bath where bath here refers to "a bathing" (action). Leasnam (talk) 09:15, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
Compare also take the waters, which does not mean "take possession of the waters", but "practice bathing as a therapeutic activity".  --Lambiam 22:13, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
I've switched out the "take a pee" usex for "take a meeting". Regarding "taking" something to get rid of it, sense 54 is "give" ("lett me se the tribute money. And they toke hym a peny"). And in baseball, to take a pitch is to decline to swing at it, letting it pass untouched. Erutuon seems right that this is a light verb with little semantic content, but it wouldn't surprise me if the original notion was from one of the many senses, like 45 "deal with" (as in "take matters as they arise"), or a notion of "taking a shit [out of one's body]", related to "I need to take a minute [out of the day / my time]". - -sche (discuss) 07:28, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
@-sche, I've added "bring" to sense 54. I think the the example of the tribute money can also be explained as they brought him a penny Leasnam (talk) 09:48, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
to shit means to defecate, related to de- (remove) and faeces. Words do not have an inherent positive meaning: the meaning is determined by context. To take can loosely mean to do an action, e.g. to take breakfast (to do breakfast), which is broader in meaning than to eat breakfast, but often used interchangeably. So, to take a shit can be analysed as to do a shit without any special etymology. I don't give a shit is basically I care so little I couldn't even be bothered to defecate in support. Considering that defecation is a necessary bodily function, and not defecating when needed can be unpleasant or painful, this is an extreme and offensive way of expressing your disinterest. to give a shit is equally offensive, even though it is a positive statement. It is usually defensive in nature. Do you even give a shit? Of course I give a shit! It would be odd in the extreme to say out of the blue I give a shit about you! Danielklein (talk) 05:38, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
@Danielklein, the term defecate is not at issue here. Regarding shit, see above: it is odd to take something to get rid of it. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 06:37, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
This might not really be an answer as to how the sense developed, but I think take in take a shit is just a light verb. So maybe take is just forming an idiomatic verb phrase with shit and it doesn't really have a meaning on its own. Light verb constructions are puzzling. — Eru·tuon 06:48, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
The origin might (and I stress might) be slightly reflexive. Consider take a ride (e.g. a horse ride) back in the Middle Ages. If I say "I'm going to take a ride" that means that "I am going to take (for me / for myself) (a / some) riding" OR "I am going to help myself to (some / a little bit of) riding" (--as if riding were somehow like cake or something). From here it is easy to see how take can enter into these types of constructs, where it has distanced itself utterly from its original meaning of "apprehend/appropriate" Leasnam (talk) 09:31, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
Again, take a bath = "take (for myself) a little bit of bathing" ⇒ "help myself to some bathing" = take a bath . Of course this is only speculation at this point, but it does demonstrate well how English uses of simple verbs have become obscured over time Leasnam (talk) 09:35, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
@Eirikr This seems obvious to me, but shit is usually a mass noun (occasional exceptions notwithstanding) so "to take a shit" obviously implies an action/activity rather than actual (metaphorical) feces, compare "to take shit" which means something else entirely.

Thus you couldn't say (excuse the graphics) "took a piece of shit" or "took a bucketload of shit" to mean defecating as it would force the mass noun interpretation.

I would also consider "someone left a shit in my toilet" borderline ungrammatical, although googling it shows that some people do use it like that, although maybe they aren't native speakers (I'm not a native speaker either) or maybe they are just joking. Crom daba (talk) 15:03, 12 July 2018 (UTC)


I can't think of the English term for this - personal possessions buried with the deceased owner, as in “gravgods” in Det Norske Akademis ordbok (NAOB). and “gravgods” in Den Danske Ordbog, literally "grave goods". DonnanZ (talk) 20:09, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

I think the term is grave goods, or sometimes "burial goods". - -sche (discuss) 21:02, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
Well I never, and it's in Oxford too. There is a main entry for grave good, which isn't quite right, I think. Thanks. DonnanZ (talk) 21:30, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
It's in Merriam-Webster, too; I reckon that lemming argument and the subtle restrictions of it (one wouldn't normally call the clothes a person today is buried in "grave goods", though our current definition is very basic and doesn't reflect that) make a case for having an entry. Looking at Ngrams, the plural is much more common than the singular, so this seems like a case where the plural could be made the lemma and the singular entry could use {{singular of|grave goods}}; what do you think? - -sche (discuss) 23:53, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
Yes, I would agree with making the plural the main entry. In Danish and Norwegian gravgods appears to be uncountable. DonnanZ (talk) 08:45, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
Yes check.svg Done. - -sche (discuss) 01:35, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
Are these calques in some direction? DTLHS (talk) 01:30, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
It's hard to tell, as grav and gods are Norwegian / Danish words anyway. DonnanZ (talk) 07:32, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
There are also terms for a single item of grave goods, German Grabbeigabe (Oxford Duden calls it a burial object) and “gravgave” in Den Danske Ordbog. DonnanZ (talk) 08:17, 4 July 2018 (UTC)

nonce etymology[edit]

The etymology for "nonce" (cryptographical sense) claims its etymology is a contraction of "number used once". The cited definition for the edit that originally added the etymology is from Ross Anderson, Security Engineering. Luckily, the full text of the book is freely available online. The relevant quote from chapter 3, page 66, is:

"The in-car token sends its name T followed by the encrypted value of T concatenated with N, where N stands for ‘number used once’, or nonce."

I don't believe this qualifies as an etymology, however, it is quite widely believed. The author is giving two definitions of N, not defining the word nonce. "number used once" is simply a convenient way for programmers to remember what a nonce is used for, and is inaccurate in that it's not actually a number. I think it is only worth mentioning in order to debunk it. I would like to see this entry merged back into nonce#Etymology 1, with a note about the dubious folk etymology. Danielklein (talk) 04:49, 4 July 2018 (UTC)

Done. DTLHS (talk) 04:51, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
How does our definition fit nonce bit (17 Google Books hits) and nonce bits (55). DCDuring (talk) 18:14, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
What's not actually a number? It's digital; everything is a number, and there's no reason to think about N as a string or other object instead of a random number. It's possible that "number used once" came first, and then it was contracted to "nonce", which already had a convenient meaning.--Prosfilaes (talk) 22:14, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

nonce (British slang?)[edit]

1985, Hunter Davies, The Beatles:
Paul did things much quieter. He had much more nonce.

Any other examples? DTLHS (talk) 05:02, 4 July 2018 (UTC)

  • Is this is a mistake / misprint for nous (common sense). SemperBlotto (talk) 05:06, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
Nuance? — SGconlaw (talk) 17:43, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
Looking a Google Books search for "more nonce" finds mostly typos and scannos for notice and more'n once, and linguistics. I'd go with nuance in the citation, looking at the context. DCDuring (talk) 18:10, 4 July 2018 (UTC)


Would a linguist kindly confirm the pronunciation of mirative? Is it /mɪˈɹeɪtɪv/, /ˈmɪɹətɪv/, or both? — SGconlaw (talk) 17:42, 4 July 2018 (UTC)

I would think /ˈmɪɹətɪv/, but I've never heard it pronounced. For comparison, its possible immediate English etymon admirative apparently used to be pronounced /ˈædmɪɹətɪv/, as that is the only pronunciation in Century (although modern dictionaries give only pronunciations with /-maɪ.rə-/ or /-mə.reɪ-/). And when I search for other French words ending in -ratif (like this word's possible French etymon), they seem to correspond to English words in /-ɹətɪv/, although admiratif is the only one in -iratif I can find. - -sche (discuss) 20:34, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
Thanks. I was unsure as the word doesn't appear in online dictionaries like Merriam-Webster Online and Oxford Dictionaries Online, and the first edition of the OED indicates that one pronunciation of admirative is /ædmɪˈɹeɪtɪv/ (unless I read it wrongly). I even tried searching on YouTube for a video to no avail. — SGconlaw (talk) 22:14, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
@-sche: thanks for this edit. Actually, what is the difference between /ɪ/ and /i/? You said in your edit summary that /mi/ sounds like me, but I thought that would be /miː/? "Wiktionary:English pronunciation" claims that General American would use /i/ where Received Pronunciation would use /ɪ/. — SGconlaw (talk) 02:48, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
Me is /miː/ in dialects where length is contrastive, like many British dialects, and /mi/ in dialects where length is not contrastive, like GenAm. When the only difference between RP and GenAm is the length marker, many editors don't consider it worthwhile to separate the pronunciations, so many entries only give /miː/, etc. /i(ː)/ and /ɪ/ are different sounds; the former is used in beat and meet, the latter in bit and mitt. Note that the appendix only says (certain) Brits have /ɪ/ and Americans have /i/ in words like ready, where (conservatively-speaking) Brits do end the word with the bit vowel; our logo famously formerly prescribed that pronunciation for the y at the end of our name, which made us seem very stodgy. The appendix correctly reflects that in see, both Brits and Americans use /i/, and in bit, both use /ɪ/. - -sche (discuss) 03:57, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
OK, thanks! — SGconlaw (talk) 04:09, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
This mood occurs in Albanian (where it is also called admirative) and is sometimes said to occur in Tibeto-Burman languages and Navajo, so perhaps User:Stephen G. Brown, User:Wyang or User:Etimo has heard the word pronounced...? - -sche (discuss) 00:57, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
I've only seen the word mirative, and have never heard anyone pronounce it. When I read it, I pronounce it /ˈmɪɹətɪv/ to myself. —Stephen (Talk) 04:20, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
I had a look at a print copy of OED2 (sadly I no longer have access to OED Online). Mirative does not appear in it, but the pronunciation of admirative is given as either /ædmɪˈreɪtɪv/ or /ædˈmaɪrətɪv/. I don't know if this is a good guide to the pronunciation of mirative, which could thus be either /mɪˈreɪtɪv/ or /ˈmaɪrətɪv/. — SGconlaw (talk) 06:18, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
I would certainly say /ˈmɪɹətɪv/. It's not an easy pronunciation to verify, since it's so rarely used – I can't find anything obvious on YouTube. If someone pronounced it differently I would be surprised, but it would be hard to justify calling it wrong. Ƿidsiþ 11:09, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

Proto-Norse ᚱᚨᛇᚺᚨᚾ (raïhan)[edit]

Is this evidence for the preserving of nasal vowels in Proto-Norse? Wikipedia's article on Proto-Norse mentions uncertainty of nasal vowels in PN.

It's not even certain that ᚱᚨᛇᚺᚨᚾ's Proto-Norse; it could be the predecessor to Old English rāha, rāa, (each representing successive forms of this word's development, though it's usually considered to be North Germanic due to the form of the ᚺ) --Hazarasp (talk) 09:13, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

bad loser[edit]

NISOP? --Harmonicaplayer (talk) 14:49, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

Yes, IMO. DCDuring (talk) 16:54, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
How would this entry be considered SoP? What sense of 'bad' is being evoked in the definition, "Someone who gets upset when they lose a competition"? ---> Tooironic (talk) 16:13, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
bad#Adjective sense 3: "Seemingly non-appropriate [sic], in manners, etc" DCDuring (talk) 19:29, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
MWOnline's definitions aren't worded to make applicability to this collocation clear, but Oxford has "Failing to conform to standards of [moral virtue or] acceptable conduct." We have sore loser, which I thought might be a synonym, as does MWOnline. MWO also has sore: "Angry, irked", with usage example a sore loser. DCDuring (talk) 19:39, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

salsa sauce[edit]

Hey all. I want to put salsa sauce in a category like Category:English reduplications. Are there any more expressions like this - made up of an English word and its translation in another language? Things like madera wood, poissonfish, tympano drum would work. Also, PIN number and other RAS syndrome stuff should probably be categorized somewhere. --Harmonicaplayer (talk) 15:21, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

Like pizza pie? DCDuring (talk) 16:55, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
Or Sahara desert. Andrew Sheedy (talk) 17:25, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
I don't wish to spoil this nice party, but isn't salsa sauce SOP ? Leasnam (talk) 22:05, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
I think so, as are some of the others. It might make a better Appendix than a category, with no link shown for the SoP terms. DCDuring (talk) 03:57, 6 July 2018 (UTC)
Yes. But your example of "pizza pie" does suggest a category idiomatic entries could go in: Category:English pleonastic compound nouns. - -sche (discuss) 04:37, 6 July 2018 (UTC)
Lake Chad? —Suzukaze-c 04:39, 6 July 2018 (UTC)
See also w:List of redundant place names. - -sche (discuss) 04:48, 6 July 2018 (UTC)
Category:English pleonasms? As for it being SOP: for the people who use the term, it isn't. They have no idea what salsa means, so it's no more SOP for them than hollandaise sauce. Chuck Entz (talk) 07:00, 6 July 2018 (UTC)
Point taken. DCDuring (talk) 19:42, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
Does this seems like an interesting linguistic phenomenon, @Per utramque cavernam?. DCDuring (talk) 19:45, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
@DCDuring: I didn't get your ping. I've added that to my user page. Per utramque cavernam 09:56, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
I got yours. Apparently I found yet another way of making {{reply}} not function. DCDuring (talk) 12:50, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
One of my favorite such examples was on a bilingual placename sign in Tokyo.
English: "Shinsen-gawa River"
Literally, "New-River River River". Oofda. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 22:16, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
Beautiful. —Suzukaze-c 02:28, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

have had the Richard[edit]

Australian slang, apparently along the lines of "be screwed", "be FUBAR". Anyone familiar with it? It's in a couple dictionaries, some of which even have citations (from local Australian papers, etc), but I can't find any citations on Google Books or Issuu. - -sche (discuss) 02:53, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

Apparently we are missing a bit of Cockney rhyming slang: Richard <= Richard the Third "bird '(slang} A loud sound expressing disapproval; a raspberry.'" I wonder whether 'the Richard' occurs in other expressions. DCDuring (talk) 04:15, 6 July 2018 (UTC)
The Australian National Dictionary's entry on "richard" seems (from a screenshot I saw of it) to only have examples of this one phrase. Beside the bird theory some other sources mention, they mention that it could also be a play on dick. (I can see how "have have the dick" could be a circumlocution for "be / have been fucked", like "extract the urine" for "take the piss".) - -sche (discuss) 04:36, 6 July 2018 (UTC)
One problem with rhyming slang is that there are usually multiple possibilities for the rhyme, eg, turd and word, not to mention less likely possibilities among nouns like herd, curd, and nerd. And, as you say, Richard could be intended to evoke dick, which adds sick, kick, and mick. This adds a huge amount of polysemy to possible entries and ambiguity to instances of possible attestation of meaning. No wonder that we have relatively little of such slang. DCDuring (talk) 11:18, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

Disputed entry: wallless[edit]

Hi. I believe this wiktionary entry should be verified again. The English language generally doesn't allow words with 3 letters the same, concurrently; they are usually hyphenated, and Merriam-Webster hyphenates Wall-less (here. Could we get this checked please? See other examples such as cross-section, bell-like and so on. DaneGeld (talk) 21:30, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

We actually have crosssection! I agree we haven't done enough to indicate how rare these forms are. Equinox 21:34, 6 July 2018 (UTC)
Wallless doesn't seem excessively rare; it was historically like 1/10th as common as wall-less, and even now it's like 1/17th. (For comparison, that's about the difference in commonness between "United States" and "United Kingdom".) Then again, our criteria for labelling something "rare" or "uncommon" are not partcularly clear. - -sche (discuss) 22:09, 6 July 2018 (UTC)
Can we be certain that Google's Ngram Viewer doesn't ever run together word-wrapped words that have a hyphen ("wall- / less")? Note this person's comment: [3]. Equinox 22:17, 6 July 2018 (UTC)
Good point. - -sche (discuss) 22:20, 6 July 2018 (UTC)
I don't trust those numbers; a Google Books search for "wallless" turns up so many hits that show wallless in the sample text and wall-less (or wall- (line break) less) in the scans. The rule of "no 3 letters the same" seems like a rule that pedants and careful editors might use, but English users seem quite likely to write "wallless" and not worry about such pedantic rules.--Prosfilaes (talk) 22:22, 6 July 2018 (UTC)
Yes. To cite words like this you absolutely need to see an image of the text and not what Google's OCR thinks is the text. DTLHS (talk) 22:23, 6 July 2018 (UTC)
Oxford also has wall-less which is definitely preferable, but there's no entry for that. DonnanZ (talk) 22:59, 6 July 2018 (UTC)
  • David Foster Wallace uses these a lot. I remember "tallly" occurring in Infinite Jest. Ƿidsiþ 11:19, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

Missing entry for dørslå in Norwegian Bokmål[edit]

In Norwegian Bokmål, there is no entry for dørslå/slåen, which seems to be a door lock/type of a door lock. So far I can't even say I know the basics of NB so adding a whole new page myself is out of the question, as it'd end up being sub-par at best.

Would someone with more knowledge than me be so kind and add it? C0rn3j (talk) 23:02, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

It's a bolt for a door, I'll do an entry in the morning. DonnanZ (talk) 23:11, 6 July 2018 (UTC)
dørslå Yes check.svg Done, I also added this sense to slå. DonnanZ (talk) 10:46, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

Missing entry for drogene in Norwegian Bokmål[edit]


I think I'll run into quite a few in the next few days, is it okay to keep posting like I've been doing? Or perhaps keep posting under a single thread instead of creating a new one like this?

By the way, thanks DonnanZ! C0rn3j (talk) 22:10, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

@C0rn3j: There is Wiktionary:Requested entries (Norwegian). —Suzukaze-c 21:58, 7 July 2018 (UTC)
@Suzukaze-c: Thanks! I'll post my further requests in there then. C0rn3j (talk) 22:10, 7 July 2018 (UTC)
I will have to make a point of looking in requested entries, I usually forget. DonnanZ (talk) 22:54, 7 July 2018 (UTC)
@C0rn3j: Do you have any context for drogene? It is a definite plural of both drog and droge. DonnanZ (talk) 09:25, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
@Donnanz: Third paragraph, might be drugs. https://i.imgur.com/EJ23F8b.png C0rn3j (talk) 09:53, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
@C0rn3j: Yes, drugs. Drogene han solgte (The drugs he sold). Entries Yes check.svg Done for droge, drogene etc. DonnanZ (talk) 11:08, 8 July 2018 (UTC)


So, WF is using signposts in cartoons as quotes now. It's probably OK, as all Simpsons episodes are 100% archived. The question is, how's the formatting? --Harmonicaplayer (talk) 09:59, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

Maybe not the best cite in the world. Formatting looks okay to me. Find something else to do, like adding crappy sports journalism to everyday verbs. (TWO NIL. OI! OI!) Equinox 10:52, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
Thanks for the comments, Eq --Harmonicaplayer (talk) 14:25, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

drug (translations)[edit]

Should we shunt off translations for pharmacological drugs to medicine? DonnanZ (talk) 12:38, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

It's already redirecting to medicine with {{{{trans-see|substance used as a medical treatment|medicine}}}} --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 12:44, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
Yes, I know, that's stating the obvious. I don't think it should. DonnanZ (talk) 13:50, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
That's stating the obvious to you. It wasn't obvious to the rest of us that you knew that, or that that was true. This is not a vote; don't tell us that you think it should, discuss why it should or shouldn't.--Prosfilaes (talk) 22:46, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
I want to know why this has happened, I won't be entering any translations until I find out. If the answer is unsatisfactory, no translations. DonnanZ (talk) 23:07, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
@Donnanz: It wasn't obvious to me why you were asking. In many languages, pharmacological drug = medicine but not all languages. You can either add to medicine with a {{qualifier}} or create a new translation section like this:
Put it below the redirect {{trans-see}} and add new translations to it. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 23:14, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
Sorry, I realise now that my question was ambiguous. Let me look into this, I have seen another way (maybe it's the same way). DonnanZ (talk) 08:21, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
@Donnanz: While you're deciding what to do with the Norwegian translations, I've added a Norwegian/Bokmål translation droge m (drug) to medicine#Translations. Ambiguity/multiple senses of terms makes translation work harder but it's not that the problems can't be solved. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 01:29, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
@Atitarev: I knew I would find it in the end: {{trans-top-also}}, which seems to be quite useful. DonnanZ (talk) 13:07, 13 July 2018 (UTC)
@Donnanz:: Good job. I've added a German and Swedish equivalent translations, even though our Swedish drog entry is incomplete. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 13:14, 13 July 2018 (UTC)
@Atitarev: Apparently French drogue can be both a narcotic and médicament, it was already shown as a narcotic translation. DonnanZ (talk) 13:27, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

Third-person plural perfect and pluperfect passive indicative of mute and liquid Ancient Greek verbs[edit]

In mute and liquid verbs, the third person plural of the perfect and pluperfect passive is formed by means of the perfect passive participle and εἰσί(ν), ἦσαν, from εἰμί. [4] The monolectic forms τετάχαται, γεγράφαται, ἐφθάραται, ἐτετάχατο are very rare and the forms τεταγμένοι εἰσί(ν), γεγραμμένοι εἰσί(ν) etc. should also be included in the respective templates. -- 17:59, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

pay tribute[edit]

Hi friends.

Is there any reason why this article doesn't exist here on en:? I just created fr:pay tribute, and was wondering if I was making a mistake, due to my limited understanding of English language.

Waiting for your lights, --ArséniureDeGallium (talk) 18:51, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

The reason may be that pay may mean "to give (something else than money)", as in pay attention, while that which can be paid can not only be attention or tribute, but also homage, respects, and reverence. So it can be argued that the term pay tribute is sum-of-parts. On the other hand, the list of things that can be paid is rather limited; you may give someone a minute, but you wouldn't say that you pay someone a minute of your time. The sense of "give (something else than money)" is, apparently, not idiomatically productive. So a lot can be said for having separate entries for the combinations that are idiomatic, as we already have for pay a visit, pay heed, and pay attention. On the other hand, not only can you pay attention, we hope you will then also pay proper attention; likewise, not only can you pay respects, you can also pay your respects or even last respects, and instead of plain homage you can pay someone a well-earned homage, and so on. So I'm not sure where this would end. An interesting aspect of pay tribute is that the original, literal sense, actually was about the transfer of substantial amounts of money or monetarily valuable goods. So the something-else-than-money" sense was, I think, not inherited from the verb pay, but induced by the transition to a figurative sense.  --Lambiam 20:36, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
The argument that I usually make about this kind of thing is that it is transparent to decode it. Others make the argument that it is not transparent to encode it. My counter is that the place where it belongs for encoding is in the glosses in the FL entries for the words for which it is the most natural translation. But FL contributors seem to find it much easier to add a red-linked translation that to add an entry with, eg, pay tribute as a gloss. So entries for such SoP terms serve as a kind of scaffolding for the eventual construction of the future Wiktionary that has no redlinks on translation tables. DCDuring (talk) 02:11, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
To pay is to render or give something that is due, so it's narrower than simply "give" Leasnam (talk) 02:16, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
It may be easy to decode, but it is not easy to know whether or not it exists. "Give tribute", "pay tribute", "render tribute" – not to mention phrases using words like "tax" or "security" or "impost" – are all equally easy to decode. Is one of them orders of magnitude more common than the others? If so, it may be a set idiomatic phrase. Extra points if it's unexpectedly difficult to translate. These factors add up and make me more inclined to give something its own entry. Ƿidsiþ 11:07, 10 July 2018 (UTC)


The English definition of this word says it's slang, used as an intensifier, but I have never seen "hecken" used anywhere. Shouldn't the correct form be heckin', a shortened term of hecking in a similar pattern to freaking/freakin'? Tymewalk (talk) 22:40, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

@BelandSuzukaze-c 02:16, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
You are not alone in your skepticism. Such doubts are resolved by finding "attestation", instances of use in durable media with a given definition (WT:RFV). hecken has come up in an RfV discussion of another word. DCDuring (talk) 02:22, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
Sorry, I misspelled heckin, which I found without an apostrophe but we also have heckin'. 8( [5] -- Beland (talk) 04:50, 10 July 2018 (UTC)


This is the first time I have seen a dictionary define a word by noting that it is a proper noun, and giving some usage notes (italicized in brackets), without telling you what it is the name of --- the most important function of a dictionary was omitted. Unforgivable! -- Solo Owl 11:57, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

Not sure what you mean, as the entry clearly states that the word means “Facebook”. — SGconlaw (talk) 12:49, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

take it out on? should the "it" be there[edit]

I'm just wondering, since it seems you can replace "it" with a bunch of things, like "take your stress out on your friends", "take their marital problems out on the kids". Should a separate entry be made at take out on? Mofvanes (talk) 22:10, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

You're right. I believe the main entry should be take out on, and take it out on should redirect to it. Ultimateria (talk) 15:00, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
Seconded. DCDuring (talk) 15:17, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
Or should the lemma include "something", like "give something a try" and several other "give something..." entries do? "take something out on" should be a redirect, at least. - -sche (discuss) 04:50, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
I support a soft redirect from "take it out on" to "take out on." Soft, because the "it" is not a self-explanatory component of the phrase as "one's frustration" would be in "take one's frustration out on." Andrew Sheedy (talk) 21:27, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

Some Bokmål words that are also Nynorsk are not defined in Nynorsk[edit]

Here's a list(not complete) of words that are defined in Bokmål but not Nynorsk https://haste.c0rn3j.com/mukehukoze

lots of those seem valid but there are also some that are not (hellig for example, it seems to exist in Nynorsk too as a noun).

Am not sure if you guys have such a list (you probably do), but on the off-chance there's none and someone wants to spend time going through it, hope I helped.

C0rn3j (talk)

It's a wiki! If you are comfortable with Nynorsk, feel free to add the missing entries! —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 23:12, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
Absolutely uncomfortable with Bokmål, much less Nynorsk! Just thought it'd be useful for someone who is ^^ C0rn3j (talk) 08:01, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
As far as I can see hellig doesn't occur in Nynorsk, but helling does, is there any confusion there? Apart from that there are spelling differences between the two, as well as some verbs entered in Bokmål but not Nynorsk, due to a period I went through. Also some words have been entered in Nynorsk but not Bokmål, for example I sorted slagmark out today. A dictionary never seems to be complete. DonnanZ (talk) 23:32, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
You know what, looking at the dictionary site I used for a quick check again(dinordbok.no), the H for the Nynorsk entry is capital, so I guess it is a name. Or a wrong entry there. If it'd be any help I could also create a list of entries only defined in Nynorsk and not Bokmål. As I said, am not sure if this functionality is not provided by the wiki itself and my whole post pointless ^^ C0rn3j (talk) 08:01, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
Your interest is appreciated. As you feel uncomfortable with making entries yourself it is perhaps better to add requests for missing words as you have been doing. When creating entries I look for words that are missing in what I read, and don't work from a vocab list. However I don't enter every word I come across, especially compounds, if there is no dictionary back-up. DonnanZ (talk) 10:40, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
I should add that Norwegians make spelling mistakes just like English speakers, even on Wikipedia, which doesn't make the task any easier. DonnanZ (talk) 11:04, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

defeat (noun)[edit]

I think the translation table should be split; a défaite in French is always an instance of being defeated, not of defeating someone. Per utramque cavernam 10:47, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

I agree. Most other major dictionaries I checked, and some of the minor ones, also have separate senses here. I've split the senses and added two more. - -sche (discuss) 04:44, 12 July 2018 (UTC)


Objective pronouns work also as emphatic by nature not "understanding"

"if the me is understood as an emphatic form". (from the entry for 'i') but... it is. should say, "but that prescription is only sociolinguistically meaningful." Yoandri Dominguez Garcia (talk) 15:56, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

I've just dropped that part; it didn't make sense. - -sche (discuss) 04:25, 12 July 2018 (UTC)


Why is 電 described as a phono-semantic compound of 雨 and 申, instead of just a semantic compound? 雨 being rain or cloud, and 申 being lighting. The resulting pronunciation could have been inherited from 申, which was 電's original character. Perhaps, at some point, 申 was re purposed (as we can see due to the plethora of uses and meanings this character was given), and a new semantic compound character was created referring to the original word, the same as, for example, 無 and 舞. QAureal (talk) 06:38, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

"that day month", "that day year"[edit]

Just came across the phrase "that day month" in Charles Dickens' excellent short story Captain Murderer (see the citation at paste); you can also find "that day year". What is the syntactical explanation for these curious phrases? Are there others? ("That month year" doesn't seem to be used this way, nor "that hour day", etc.) Is it something we can/should document? Equinox 04:55, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

  • Yes it's a special sense something like, "Used with another measure of time to indicate the same day that distance into the past or future". Usually it crops up with "this" rather than "that", and as far as I know it only affects day. Ƿidsiþ 09:17, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
  • I was almost tempted to make the "closed" set of six entries [this|that] day [week|month|year], but then I saw this day three weeks. Something for the hypothetical future WikiGrammar, then. Equinox 21:16, 13 July 2018 (UTC)
    In Scotland they had a special one: "This day eight days", meaning a week today (or a week ago). Ƿidsiþ 06:04, 14 July 2018 (UTC)


Would someone be willing to clean this up? All these definitions look very redundant. @-sche? Per utramque cavernam 14:01, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

I've had a go at it (the adjective only, for now). I removed a few redundant senses, and some with defdates saying they weren't attested in English, which also weren't in other dictionaries. Incidentally, Century has a sense I wasn't sure if we lacked or simply covered in a different sense: "10. Immeasurable; not definable by measurement; not led up to by insensible gradations: as, the distinction between right and wrong is absolute. The opposition is no longer of the rigid or absolute nature which it was before, A. Seth." Other dictionaries have a sense, similar to the sense "positive (form of an adjective)", for the "lemma" or "isolated" form of a word as opposed to the form that appears in contractions, but I haven't spotted citations that show usage of that yet. - -sche (discuss) 05:43, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

defence force[edit]

It seems to be a euphemism for a military force, as in Israel, so it may be entry-worthy. DonnanZ (talk) 17:56, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

Etymology of Istanbul[edit]

The conventional etymology of the name of Istanbul is as a bastardization of the Greek phrase εἰς τὴν Πόλιν. In a process known as iotacism, the pronunciation of the letter η had already been raised and changed to /i/ by the time Turks presented themselves adjacent to the Byzantine Empire. The sound shift /i/ > /a/ is hard to explain. It is even harder to explain in the Turkish name for the island of Kos, İstanköy, which has a similar etymology, because there it also goes, on either side, against Turkish vowel harmony.

Several sources explain the etymology as stemming from the dialectal variant εἰς τὰν Πόλιν; for example, here in a commentary in a 2015 edition of Pliny's Natural History, or, in a Greek-language source, in a contribution by Misaïl D. Engonopoulos – an expert on the many names of Byzantion/Constantinople/Istanbul – to the 2000 book Κωνσταντινούπολη: λογοτεχνική ανθολογία – 60 κείμενα για την πόλη (ISBN 9607771354, page 60, unfortunately no Google preview).

Should we mention this as an alternative etymology, or perhaps even replace the current one?  --Lambiam 12:14, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

Sounds good, go ahead. Crom daba (talk) 22:53, 13 July 2018 (UTC)
It's favorable to this explanation that according to the Ancient Greek dialects map on Wikipedia, Doric, one of the dialects that had τὰν (tàn), was spoken around the area of what's now Istanbul – rather than Ionic, which, like Attic, had τὴν (tḕn). — Eru·tuon 00:41, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
I was aware of that, but that map is derived from Woodward, and in the source its caption is, “The Greek dialects in the first millenium BC and neighboring languages.” So we are looking at a time gap here of 10 to 20 centuries, and it is doubtful whether the dialectal variations with their geographical distributions survived all this time. A Google search reveals many later instances of τὰν and even the phrase εἰς τὰν πόλιν, but I don’t know the locations of origin of their authors.  --Lambiam 09:59, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

at play[edit]

Would the sense "at play" as in "there may be other factors at play" be considered SoP here? ---> Tooironic (talk) 12:50, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

We would first need a sense of "play" like "operation, activity" for it to be SoP. I think that sense might only be used in "at play" and "in play", but I've also looked for translations of that sense many times... Ultimateria (talk) 13:02, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

Terms of abuse ending with "fucker"[edit]

Hello. There are many vulgar terms of abuse that end with fucker — e.g. camelfucker, catfucker, dogfucker, donkeyfucker, duckfucker, goatfucker, horsefucker, mousefucker, pigfucker, ratfucker — but I haven't found any category or list that link them to each other (e.g. fucker#Derived terms or Thesaurus:git, where I guess they could be added). Moreover, should animal-related terms be grouped in any list? For example, a category, a thesaurus, etc.? — Automatik (talk) 13:04, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

They almost certainly belong only at fucker#Derived terms. This search finds 80+ terms most of which would belong there, IMO. DCDuring (talk) 15:46, 13 July 2018 (UTC)
Note that not all terms that end in fucker have the same semantic relationship with the preceding morpheme. DCDuring (talk) 15:49, 13 July 2018 (UTC)
What criteria could we use to determine if this is suffixation or compounding? DTLHS (talk) 16:14, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

freeer and freeest[edit]

I noticed that freeer is in the dictionary as a common misspelling, and created freeest as a natural companion (and one that is also attested). I am wondering, however, are these really misspellings, and not valid alternative spellings, or perhaps previously valid spellings? They seem to have been used by literate people in the past. bd2412 T 21:07, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

These don't appear in any OneLook reference, nor in MWDEU or Garner's. Take whatever action you deem appropriate. DCDuring (talk) 15:08, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
I am more interested in whether there is some rule of construction in the English language that would make these wrong. Since one who boos is a booer (granted, a different part of speech), is an adjective ending in "-ee" (I can't think of any others besides, "free") prohibited from having an "-er" appended to that? bd2412 T 00:17, 15 July 2018 (UTC)
Maybe the rule is that for adjectives ending in e, you add -r and -st instead of -er and -est. Compare nimble/nimbler/nimblest, true/truer/truest. Similar to what we do with -ed on verbs (sample/sampled, free/freed - not "freeed"). —Granger (talk · contribs) 00:22, 15 July 2018 (UTC)
The word seer (see + -er) might also be a useful comparison. —Granger (talk · contribs) 00:28, 15 July 2018 (UTC)
I suppose we could infer a (descriptive) 'rule' if we find some number of relevant cases in which the offending vowel triplet could have been used by authors. If the number of cases for which the triplet occurs more than rarely or more than some percentage of the time, we could say that such a proscriptive rule is empirically followed by authors. The cases are few and far between. So a 'rule' may not really be inferrable. Thus we are left with only prescriptive rules, which we eschew.
One can also find attestably common use of the base words with -er (eg free-er, wee-er; pee-er, flee-er, see-er). DCDuring (talk) 16:30, 15 July 2018 (UTC)
Following on from seer, there is overseer. DonnanZ (talk) 09:59, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

percent, per cent[edit]

Both are given as nouns. It doesn't feel right to me. Then "ten percent" sounds like Det+N (like "ten apples"), whereas really it's "ten per [for each] cent [hundred]", more like "ten out of twenty" or "two outside the door". Should we change the PoS; if so, to what? Equinox 01:11, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

Phrases like "half a percent" and "a tenth of a percent" are attested, which makes it look like a noun to me. —Granger (talk · contribs) 01:38, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
Hmm. Those suggest "twenty percents" (if "a percent" is the unit). We do offer "percent" as an alternative plural but that feels like syntactic rationalisation after the fact. Equinox 01:41, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
I see what you mean – the analysis that it's an irregular plural (singular percent, plural percent) is a little unsatisfying. But it explains the data as far as I can tell, and I'm having trouble thinking of another analysis that makes sense. —Granger (talk · contribs) 01:54, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
I see a big problem with claiming an irregular plural being the same as the singular: in many cases where nouns are used as (counting) units, it is extremely common for the singular to be used with a number >1. "He weighs more than 14 stone." "How long? Ten foot six." and so on and so on. It is much more plausible (to me at least) that these are simply uses of the singular. Imaginatorium (talk) 04:35, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
It seems to me like a prepositional phrase that was later reanylized as a unit of measure, thereby nominalizing it. (So the "of a percent" sense should go under a different POS heading rather than analyzing the original sense based on the newer one). Andrew Sheedy (talk) 02:17, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
That sounds good to me; don't know if others see it as overly pedantic...? BTW this should also affect permille, per mille, per mil, per mill, maybe others I've never heard of. Equinox 02:29, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
Is there any evidence that this was ever a prepositional phrase in English? In Latin it was (per centum), but maybe it was borrowed into English as an irregular noun. Can we find any quotations that don't fit under the "Noun" heading? (Maybe something like "There were a lot percent"? A usage like that wouldn't be explainable as a noun, but a Google Books search for "a lot percent" doesn't find anything. Or "How many answers were correct percent?"?) —Granger (talk · contribs) 02:49, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
What about (from Google Books) "How many per cent of the class are girls and how many per cent are boys?" Equinox 03:08, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
That still looks like it could be a noun. Compare "How many members of the class...". —Granger (talk · contribs) 03:11, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
I read it like "how many per household pay tax?". The space in "per cent" feels like a clue. Equinox 03:19, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
I think the space in "per cent" is there because there's a space in the Latin phrase it was borrowed from (compare per se). To me, the lack of a space in the now more common spelling "percent" feels like a clue that it isn't a prepositional phrase. :P
Either analysis (noun or prepositional phrase) would explain the "How many per cent of the class" sentence. But we already need the "Noun" heading to explain uses like "half a percent", and if that heading can also explain all other uses, then I don't see any reason to create another heading. This is similar to how we don't create an adjective heading in an entry based solely on attributive use that can already be explained by an existing "Noun" heading. —Granger (talk · contribs) 03:35, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
It seems your argument would also work for "fused" English PPs like instore and onboard (which we don't count as nouns, correctly IMO). Ah well. Going in circles by now. Equinox 03:44, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
Maybe I'm not making myself understood. I'm saying that the word "percent" needs to have a noun sense like the current sense 1 ("A part or other object per hundred") because that's the only way I can see to explain phrases like "a tenth of a percent". Given that, we should only create a new "prepositional phrase" sense if we can find usages that can't be explained with the existing senses.
In contrast, the words "instore" and "onboard" shouldn't be labeled nouns. Unlike with percent, there are no uses like "*a tenth of an instore" or "*a tenth of an onboard" (at least not without a noun following them). If there were uses like that, then I would say those entries should have a "Noun" heading. —Granger (talk · contribs) 04:04, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
Taking "per cent" to be a noun in "How many per cent", with or without the space, makes it sound very awkward, almost like Doge/Doggo-speak, like "how many grammar". So it does seem more like a phrase of some sort there, to me. - -sche (discuss) 03:57, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
The way the entry is currently written, I think "per cent" in that sentence is analyzed as a plural noun (like "members" in my comparison above), not a singular or uncountable noun like "grammar". —Granger (talk · contribs) 04:04, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
That's one way of reading it, but to me it seems at least as likely to be using [how many] [per] [cent] (rather than [how many] [per cent]) in the same way as ... [per] [mille] or indeed [per] [hundred]. - -sche (discuss) 04:31, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
Or "how many per day/week/month/year dropped out of the course", yes... Equinox 05:30, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
I wonder if o'clock is analogous ("of the clock"): we call that an adverb!! Equinox 02:30, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
Hmm. I wouldn't say "*half an o'clock", "*a tenth of an o'clock", "*thirty o'clock(s)", or "*0.5 o'clock(s)", whereas percent can be used with any of these and with any other number. Phrases like "What o'clock is it?" are attestable, though I think they're archaic. —Granger (talk · contribs) 02:49, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
Lemming report: Merriam-Webster, the American Heritage Dictionary and Collins have it as an adverb, an adjective and a noun. Cambridge and oxforddictionaries.com call it an adverb and a noun. Dictionary.com has it as a noun and an adjective. Macmillan and oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com call it a noun only. (We had an adjective section until this IP edit which seemed correct to me at the time.) Century directs readers to separate entries for per and cent, as if considering it SOP. One of the condensed OEDs I looked at has per annum, per capita and per cent all as adverbs (only).
IMO, it can be a noun at least some of the time, so it needs a noun section, but it seems like it can also be an adverb or phrase some of the time, and so may need a section for that, too. - -sche (discuss) 04:05, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
Merriam-Webster, Cambridge, Collins, oxforddictionaries.com and Dictionary.com all have per mill(e) exclusively as an adverb. This lends support to the idea that, when used in the same way as that word, per cent is (at least sometimes) an adverb or non-noun. - -sche (discuss) 04:10, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
A large number of older reference works call it a phrase (google books:"the phrase per cent"), and at least two discuss it being an adverb and not a noun: The American Schoolmaster volume 12 (1919), page 445: "A well known book on English composition cautions students against the use of per cent for percentage, as when some persons erroneously say a large per cent. The explanation furnished for correction of the error is that per cent is an adverb [...]", and Charles Harvey Raymond's Essentials of English composition (1923), page 461: "Per cent is an adverb meaning in the hundred. [...] Percentage is a noun meaning rate per cent." OTOH, one from the same time period does call it a noun: The Literary Digest volume 42 (1911), page 496, responding to a reader's question about whether to say "ten per cent of the books is" or "...are", says "the modifying phrase 'of the books' must not be considered in the decision as to the correct form of the verb, as the noun 'per cent.' is here the subject of the sentence." (That so many other dictionaries and works analyse it as an adverb should be mentioned in usage notes if we don't decide to have that POS.) - -sche (discuss) 04:31, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
That information from other reference works is interesting, and it could be that The Literary Digest and I are wrong. But I still don't see any examples that aren't explained by the existing noun senses. —Granger (talk · contribs) 05:27, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
  • I definitely consider "per cent" to be an adverb. I was always taught that saying "half a per cent" is wrong (which is why on the news you say that interest rates are being raised by "half of one per cent"), though I see that this noun use is in the OED without any qualifiers. Ƿidsiþ 06:01, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
  • A small number of dictionaries have cent as an abbreviation of "(one) hundred". This is consistent with viewing per cent as a prepositional phrase, even an SoP one (per#Preposition + cent). (We don't have cent#Noun defined as "one hundred".) As a prepositional phrase it could function adverbially and, in principle, adjectivally.
Otherwise, it just seems like a noun to me, accepting modification by some determiners, pluralizing with s in some senses, serving as subject of verbs and object of prepositions and verbs.
I don't believe that it can pass our tests as a "true" adjective. DCDuring (talk) 16:47, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

as an alternative form of ?[edit]

Our entry for Chinese (zhā) says that it can be used as an alternative form of (zhá). Is the reverse true as well? I ask because I encountered the following sentence in Sanmao's book 撒哈拉的故事 (Stories of the Sahara): "这个啊,是春天下的第一场雨,下在高山上,被一根一根冻住了,山胞好了背到山下来一束一束卖了米酒喝。" I can't make sense of it with either of the senses listed at , but it makes sense if it means "to tie; to fasten; to bundle" (sense 3 at ). Is this just a typo, or can 札 be used as an alternative form of 扎? —Granger (talk · contribs) 01:36, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

@Mx. Granger: Seems to be a typo in your version. Compare 扎 in: [6][7][8][9][10][11], and 紮 in: [12][13][14]. Wyang (talk) 01:44, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
Looks like you're right. Thanks! —Granger (talk · contribs) 01:48, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

be a dead man[edit]

Worthy of an entry? Per utramque cavernam 17:49, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

I think so. "I'm a dead man" is clearly not SOP. Andrew Sheedy (talk) 18:37, 15 July 2018 (UTC)
Doesn't dead have a sense "doomed"? AFAICT, we don't have it in our entry and MWOnline doesn't have it, but still [] .
  • 2009, Noel Hynd, Midnight in Madrid[15]:
    You're dead. A million and one thoughts pounded her at once. But one overpowered all the others. This time you're dead.
It could be that 're ("are") is used in a sense meaning "are about to be" or dead could mean "about to be dead", ie, "doomed".
DCDuring (talk) 19:25, 15 July 2018 (UTC)
Right, this seems like a sense of dead. There's also google books:"you're a dead woman", google books:"you're a dead dog", etc, and as DCDuring points out, "you're dead". We actually have two senses in this vein in our entry, 18. "(informal) (Certain to be) in big trouble. You come back here this instant! Oh, when I get my hands on you, you're dead, mister!" and 3. "(of another person) So hated that they are absolutely ignored. He is dead to me." - -sche (discuss) 19:38, 15 July 2018 (UTC)
AHD has "Marked for certain death; doomed": was marked as a dead man by the assassin. DCDuring (talk) 06:00, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
I've edited our "certain to be in big trouble" sense so that it now covers that (and moved it to a place where it seemed to fit better in the flow of the senses). - -sche (discuss) 06:31, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

Redundant entry for 'eder' in Norwegian Bokmål[edit]


eder (Bokmål)

   indefinite plural of ed

I think this "(Bokmål)" is a leftover from when Nynorsk and Bokmål wasn't separated? It seems redundant but am unsure, so am asking here instead of deleting it outright.

C0rn3j (talk) 20:53, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

  • It is correct, but both this entry and the parent entry ed needed revision. It should be OK now. DonnanZ (talk) 07:24, 16 July 2018 (UTC)


Is this really a conjunction? Per utramque cavernam 13:53, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

Isn't it "A word used to join other words or phrases together into sentences."? DCDuring (talk) 22:07, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
In some cases you can replace it by where: You can sit wherever you likeYou can sit where you like; Add quotations wherever they are neededAdd quotations where they are needed. In such cases, it is just as much a conjunction as where is.  --Lambiam 22:14, 16 July 2018 (UTC)


Hello, the entry resting place was deleted 10 years ago and not recreated since then, however it seems that is the most common way to spell the word—without hyphen? — Automatik (talk) 00:56, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

"resting place" was deleted as vandalism, there was nothing worth keeping. Create it if you want. DTLHS (talk) 01:18, 17 July 2018 (UTC)
Yes check.svg Done resting place — I added a sense that the first definition didn't clearly include imo. Please feel free to double check :) — Automatik (talk) 11:42, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

emoji definition date[edit]

Requesting citations from the 1990s as the definition claims. DTLHS (talk) 22:50, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

Can't we wait till after 17 July, when the word has ceased to be Word of the Day? Cry.png. — SGconlaw (talk) 22:53, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
That depends, can we not add {{defdate}} when there is no evidence to support it? DTLHS (talk) 22:55, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
The information was from ODO, so it wasn’t plucked from the air. Face-smile.svg Also, I think RFV is the wrong forum for this issue, as the word is clearly verifiable. I suggest moving the discussion over to the Tea Room, and removing the tag. — SGconlaw (talk) 01:22, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── I do agree that it seems odd how difficult it is to find quotations before the 2000s. — SGconlaw (talk) 02:47, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

Presumably it would have been talked about online first. Usenet? DTLHS (talk) 02:48, 17 July 2018 (UTC)
Good point. Is there a way to search https://groups.google.com by date? I only seem to be able to arrange the results chronologically, and so am getting nothing but recent posts. — SGconlaw (talk) 02:54, 17 July 2018 (UTC)
I don't know either. DTLHS (talk) 03:05, 17 July 2018 (UTC)
My attention was drawn to this website, but I can't find anything before 2010. — SGconlaw (talk) 06:22, 17 July 2018 (UTC)
Figured it out, you can use "before:2000/01/01" to restrict the date. DTLHS (talk) 06:28, 17 July 2018 (UTC)
Thanks. No useful results, I'm afraid. I'm only getting the name of a Usenet group, "alt.friends.emoji" (or something like that). — SGconlaw (talk) 06:42, 17 July 2018 (UTC)
From an article on the website of MOMA on the 2017 exhibition titled “Inbox: The Original Emoji, by Shigetaka Kurita”: “In 1999 the Japanese telecom NTT DOCOMO released the original 176 emoji (e meaning “picture” and moji “character”) for mobile phones and pagers.” That does not directly answer the question when the rōmaji form emoji entered the English language, but it sets a lower bound.  --Lambiam 13:51, 17 July 2018 (UTC)
The emoji entry in the Online Etymology Dictionary states: “Its adoption in English was driven by Apple iPhone's inclusion of the feature in 2008.”  --Lambiam 16:48, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

eating habit[edit]

Can this be considered a set phrase? The reason I ask is that Norwegian Bokmål matvane and Swedish matvana are literally "food habit", German Ernährungsgewohnheit "nutrition habit", Dutch eetgewoonte follows the English pattern. DonnanZ (talk) 14:25, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

Personally, I would consider it a compound word, spelt as 2, so Yes ;) Leasnam (talk) 17:34, 17 July 2018 (UTC)
I have made an attempt at an entry. the definition can be revised or added to: I came across statements like "eating breakfast is a good eating habit". DonnanZ (talk) 20:05, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

ethic and aesthetic[edit]

Hello, Does anyone know whether there's an etymological connection between the two words ethics and aesthetics? My search came up with two similar (but not identical) sources (ethikos for ethics and aisthetikos for aesthetic), but I'm wary of making the connection without knowing Greek or having any linguistic background. Any thoughts would be most welcome! :) Thanks! Gal.

Wiktionary is your friend. Just look at ethic#Etymology and aesthetic#Etymology and keep clicking through until you hit the reconstructed Proto-Indo-European roots. Then you will see that ethic goes back, ultimately, to the reflexive pronoun *swé (self) + *dʰeh₁- (to put, place, set), whereas aesthetic goes back to *h₂ew- (to see, perceive). No connection.  --Lambiam 16:37, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

chicken hawk[edit]

Should the senses be split by etymology? Sense 2 is "a hawk of chickens, a chicken hawker", while sense 3 is "a hawk that is chicken". Per utramque cavernam 08:31, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

Added a reference which supports all three definitions in the current entry. DonnanZ (talk) 09:52, 18 July 2018 (UTC)