Wiktionary:Tea room/2011/December

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discussion rooms: Tea roomEtym. scr.Info deskBeer parlourGrease pit ← November 2011 · December 2011 · January 2012 → · (current)

December 2011


Hello guys. My question is: how do English-speaking people pronounce this ? --GaAs 18:53, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

I just read it out: as far as I know. That generally takes less time and is easier for me to say than to spell it out verbally: ei ef ei ai kei. -- Eiríkr ÚtlendiTala við mig 19:24, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
Same, I only use this as an Internet short hand, I would never say it out loud. Having said that, I have started saying OMG out loud, which I'm not exactly proud of... Mglovesfun (talk) 19:44, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
You mean sthng like /əfɛɪk/ (sorry, I'm very bad with english IPA) is not used ? --GaAs 20:56, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
I've never discussed it with anyone until you posted your question, and have never heard anyone say it (not even myself, I don't think), so don't know how people pronounce it. I've always imagined it pronounced as as far as I know.​—msh210 (talk) 18:00, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
Ditto. (Similarly SFAIK, AFAICT, SFAICT. But I take IIRC to be an initialism. I couldn't say why.) —RuakhTALK 03:32, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
Maybe it has something to do with the number of syllables in each form. Although honestly I use OMG and WTF all the time as initialisms, despite "double-you" having three syllables and "what" having one. Although I use them purely for comedic effect. There's nothing comedic about AFAIK. --Robert.Baruch 00:51, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
google books:"humorous doubt" gets enough hits to make it conceivable that someone, somewhere, will someday find a way to use AFAIK for comic effect. :-)   —RuakhTALK 15:49, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
I wouldn't speak it aloud, but in my head it's always sounded like "aff-AY-ik". Equinox 15:27, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
For me, like "a fake" (too lazy to do the IPA, sorry). Mglovesfun (talk) 12:04, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

practice to achieve perfection

I can't remember where I recently read the sentence "SirEdmundHillarywasthefirstmantoclimbMtEverest" followed by the same sentence spelled backwards. This was used as an example of repetitious practice to achieve a level of proficiency in any field. I thought I read it in "The Genius in All of US' by David Shenk. It was not. Has anyone seen this anywhere? —This unsigned comment was added by Christyreuben (talkcontribs) at 17:32, 6 December 2011‎.

I fail to see your point, sorry, please explain further. Mglovesfun (talk) 11:23, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

checksyns template

There is the template {{checksyns}} on the psychopath page. I'm not sure what to do about it since sociopath seems to be a general synonym for the senses of the definition. RJFJR 02:36, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Does sociopath fit sense 4? It looks like there are many missing synonyms. Collins has "madman, lunatic, maniac, psychotic, nutter (Brit. slang), basket case (slang), nutcase (slang), sociopath, headcase (informal), mental case (slang), headbanger (informal), insane person" as synonyms. They don't fit all the senses given. It seemed like a lot of work, but worth doing (eventually) if we are to maintain an ability to convey the colloquial distinctions. DCDuring TALK 01:51, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
This might be a job for Wikisaurus. DCDuring TALK 01:52, 10 December 2011 (UTC)


"Examples include thoughts, ideas, theories, practices, habits, songs, dances and moods and terms such as race, culture, and ethnicity." What does this mean? That, for instance, the word "Caucasian" might be a meme? Equinox 15:26, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

I've wondered whether this kind of thing would be better defined by a {{non-gloss definition}}. DCDuring TALK 01:58, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
I'll just chip in and say I don't understand it either. Mglovesfun (talk) 12:03, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
I think the sentence should be deleted. It is encyclopedic. The definition given seems adequate. DCDuring TALK 09:59, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

white ball

In combination of watching the snooker and reading the debate on nominative case et al., I wonder if white ball, red ball (and so on) would be acceptable. They're often just shortened to 'white', 'red' and so on and I think they definitely need an entry at white, red etc. But what about white ball? It is a ball that's white after all, but has specific implications in pool, snooker and other billiards games. Mglovesfun (talk) 12:02, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

Meh... accelerator pedal is a pedal that's an accelerator, but it has specific details in vehicles (e.g. it's located in a certain position relative to the other two pedals). That's encyclopaedic. Equinox 22:00, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
If you look into Category:en:Snooker you will find that all the colours already have snooker definitions. -- ALGRIF talk 14:58, 22 December 2011 (UTC)


This is missing a computing sense (as in, the cylinders of a hard drive), but I don't know how it should be defined. -- Liliana 21:57, 10 December 2011 (UTC)


I was reading in The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, the chapter entitled "The Red-Headed League". A Mr. Merryweather, who is a bank director, says, "Still, I confess that I miss my rubber. It is the first Saturday night for seven-and-twenty years that I have not had my rubber." Sherlock Holmes replies, "I think you will find that you will play for a higher stake to-night than you have ever done yet, and that the play will be more exciting." I wondered if the "rubber" that he is referring to is the soft covering for a finger used to count money - like a rubber thimble, or if it is something else. Does anyone know?

It's a best-of-three game of bridge, the card game. See rubber bridge. Equinox 23:19, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

triple O

This would far more commonly be written triple 0, right? A phone number 12045 would usually be read out "one-two-oh-four-five" but never written 12O45. Equinox 23:48, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

I would expect so. A search of Google News confirms it, finding only 29 "triple O", only half in English and very few in the meaning given vs. 189 "triple 0"s. DCDuring TALK 09:53, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
Triple zero = triple 0 = triple oh = triple O. Transitivity doesn't carry that far in the humanities. I would consider it to be an error. DAVilla 16:18, 13 December 2011 (UTC)


Does fantastical really mean fantastic (as in extraordinary), and if so shouldn't the sense be more clearly explained? DAVilla 03:30, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

acinaces plural

Is acinaci a legitimate plural of this? Equinox 13:17, 12 December 2011 (UTC)


"The p is optionally silent, thus comptroller may be a homophone of controller." Huh? Since when does m sound the same as n? Equinox 23:23, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

In New York State and its cities, comptroller is an elected office usually pronounced "controller". DCDuring TALK 09:56, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
Even if that isn't just a malapropism, wouldn't the inflection still vary? It should be stated that it's a near homophone which makes pronunciation of the p all that more significant. DAVilla 16:16, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
It is pronounced that way in the swearing-in ceremonies for the offices. That is the first pronunciation given at MWOnline. DCDuring TALK 19:08, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
I don't dispute that it may be a homophone of controller, but I do dispute that that pronunciation is the obvious "visual" pronunciation of comptroller with a silent p. This would require an m sound turning to an n sound. Equinox 21:40, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
It's not just a homophone, it's also the same word and it has the same etymology. The spelling was influenced by French compte but if anyone pronounces the m or p, it would be a spelling pronunciation. —CodeCat 22:57, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
Okay, fine, but see my original comment in this discussion. I think it's inaccurate. Equinox 00:57, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
You must be saying that if "the p is optionally silent" it would be pronounced comtroller. Well, it is not what the explanation wants to say. The p is silent, and the m is pronounced n, just like controller. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 04:37, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
Then I really don't understand the explanation. Am I stupid, or will this be even more confusing for most casual users? Equinox 03:37, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
@Equinox: I completely agree. @everyone else: The problem isn't the statement that "comptroller may be a homophone of controller"; the problem is the statement that this is so because "[t]he p is optionally silent". Silencing the <p> does not, by itself, turn the "COMPtroller" pronunciation into the "conTROLLer" pronunciation. —RuakhTALK 18:43, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
But I think the question has been answered incidentally, I mean what other answer do we want other than the one(s) we have? Mglovesfun (talk) 19:06, 14 December 2011 (UTC)


"To be watching over something. It's tough to sneak vandalism into Wikipedia as there are plenty of other users prowling the recent changes page." The usex is believable, but does it really mean "watching over" rather than (say) patrolling or hanging around it? Equinox 10:57, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Moved usage example. Not sure if definition is legit. DAVilla 16:12, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
An early Wonderfool entry. As a result, should be given a rewrite. --Simplus2 20:00, 23 December 2011 (UTC)


I don't understand how this could be more than 2, maybe 3 definitions. How would you classify these?

May he rest in peace.
Peace on earth, good will torward men.
Peace be with you.

DAVilla 16:07, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Our second definition, "A state free of oppressive and unpleasant thoughts and emotions", has an example sentence with "peace of mind". I suspect this sense requires "of mind" or similar, and that it's actually just the "A state of tranquility, quiet, and harmony" sense. That latter seems very different from the "A state free of war" sense: people speak of as nation at peace even if there's little tranquility in the country. (We should provide a gloss for state there: it's a status, not a country.) I'm not sure what our current sense 3 ("Harmony in personal relations" means, or whether it's different from the "A state free of war" sense — or, if so, whether it exists. I'm also not sure we don't need a different (countable?) sense, found in separate peace.​—msh210 (talk) 19:00, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

language templates not used - why?

I'm looking for the discussion on language templates such as {{en}} for English etc. I wonder if those templates are available why are they not used in the translation section. Can anyone give me a link to the discussion in the tea room archive? I couldn't find it. Kampy 19:07, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

The translation section alphabetizes by language name, which is hard for people to do when editing manually and seeing language codes. (It's also more for code for bots then.) I seem to recall that that's why we use the names, but could very well be wrong.​—msh210 (talk) 19:25, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
I see. Thank you. Kampy 19:31, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
It also puts too much template burden on a page download when all the translations have different templates for their own languages. Each template takes time to decode and render, and for pages with many definitions, this can hugely slow down user access to the information. --EncycloPetey 03:31, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
This doesn't really matter, because the translation template {{t}} includes those templates anyway. —CodeCat 15:44, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
It does. Page load is calculated for every use of a template. If you use {{de}} ten times in an entry, it has ten times the load of a single transclusion of {{de}}. -- Liliana 16:00, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

zero gravity

  1. The state of apparent weightlessness which occurs when in free fall.
  2. A state/shuttle/simulator which produces weightlessness.

I'm not sure exactly what sense 2 means, but is it not just listing examples of sense 1? Michael Z. 2011-12-14 00:12 z

1 is a state (situation); 2 is a machine.​—msh210 (talk) 00:32, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
Not getting it. Does shuttle mean “space shuttle?” I can't imagine how or when such a device is called “zero gravity.” Other dictionaries aren't helping me. Citation? Michael Z. 2011-12-14 03:54 z
You are getting it, then. (Well, if I am, then you are.) 2 is, yes, a space shuttle. Like you, I've never heard of this meaning of zero gravity; perhaps {{rfquote-sense}} or {{rfv-sense}}?​—msh210 (talk) 05:28, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
I'm quite certain that a space shuttle doesn't produce weightlessness. Having stared at this for a day, I believe it is nonsense. A bit of rewriting and rfv-sense, I think. Michael Z. 2011-12-14 15:10 z
WT:RFV#zero gravityMichael Z. 2011-12-14 15:30 z
It definitely produces weightlessness. Anyway, the sense 2 seems to be a nonsense. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 18:00, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
Being in free fall, including being in orbit, leads to weightlessness, enshuttled or otherwise. A shuttle can be used to put you there, but to say that the machine “produces” the state implies some mechanism that doesn't exist. Michael Z. 2011-12-15 01:11 z
More precisely, being within any free-falling object produces a state equivalent to that of "weightlessness". However, "weightlessness" is a misnomer as the object does not actually lose all weight during its fall; objects simply are not resting against a static surface. "Weightlessness" can occur in a falling elevator, at the crest of a roller coaster, or inside a plane specially designed to free-fall with astronaut trainees inside. So, the second "definition" results from attributive use of the noun's primary definition and is not distinct. --EncycloPetey 03:28, 15 December 2011 (UTC)


In the entry for post, there's a bit of overlap. Some meanings are mentioned under both Etymology headers. --Simplus2 10:47, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Acromyrex: shouldn’t it be Acromyrmex?

Hello, I typed by error “acromyrex” on Google and found there was a page on en.wikt, but I suspect this is an typo/spello too. However, being quite incompetent in taxonomy, I can’t say that fore sure (but I searched the Max Planck Gesellschaft and the University of East Anglia websites in addition to Wikipedia before posting). --Eiku (t) 17:01, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

  • Yes. My mistake from 2006! Now moved to the correct spelling. SemperBlotto 17:06, 14 December 2011 (UTC)


  • 1. A container for liquids or gases, typically with a volume of several cubic metres.
  • 6. In USA scuba divers' usage, a compressed air or gas cylinder.

Why should 1 be limited to large tanks, and 6 to USA scuba divers? To me, welders use medium-sized acetylene tanks, a barbecue has a small propane tank, and a camp stove may have a very small (liquid or gas, refillable or disposable) fuel tank. On the other end of the spectrum, oil companies and water utilities use tanks of many thousands of cubic metres capacity. Also, fuelling a car is “filling the tank.”

Any objections to merging these into one general sense? Michael Z. 2011-12-15 17:09 z


Can someone help me with capitalization and Wiktionary? We currently have IMDB which redirects to IMDb as the "correct" capitalization. I'm trying to add the verb form, to IMDB someone. In print sources, I've got two "IMDB him"s and two "IMDb her"s (note the capitalization) in independent sources. I've got a bunch of hits on Google Groups for "IMDB him" or "imdb him" and a couple for "IMdb him", and one more for "IMDb him". (I've got an "Imdb him", but it seems like merely sentence-initial capitalization.) So. Do I just add everything to IMDb? Do I make entries on IMDB, IMDb, and imdb for verbal forms? (And IMdb?) IMDB is arguably wrong, I'd argue imdb and IMDb are both acceptable variants (though any use should be tagged casual or whatever the equivalent is) and IMdb seems clearly wrong.--Prosfilaes 04:58, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

I replaced the redirect with alternate spelling since we generally do not use redirects. RJFJR 14:59, 24 December 2011 (UTC)


Is the interjection real, or is it just the adverb sense with an exclamation point (or comma) after it?​—msh210 (talk) 06:26, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

An interjection is not a part of speech, it is a word or phrase uttered as an exclamation with no particular grammatical relation to a sentence. Interjections are comprised of words of various parts of speech, often adverbs. —Stephen (Talk) 21:14, 16 December 2011 (UTC)


"(poetry) A rhyme in which the first line of a stanza (A) rhymes with the fourth line, and the second and third lines rhyme (B)." Yes. But doesn't this open the doors for all kinds of poetical structures (for example ABCB is well known)? It isn't an initialism, doesn't stand for anything; the letters are "variables" for specific rhymes, if you like, making this more akin to a statement like 2a+3b (math equation) which we clearly would not include. Equinox 03:35, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

Kith and Kine

I think this is an eggcorn of kith and kin. Albeit, an old one. The word kith more generally refers to friends and acquaintances while kin refers to family ... thus kith and kin means "friends and family". The word kine is an archaic plural of cow. So kith and kine would mean "friends and cows". Kin and Kine would make more sense than kith and kine. Other than a play on words in a book or articles about cows/animals, I haven't found "kith and kine" used.

In ME English there are many spelling variations that could lead to this confusion:

Oþer whyle þou muste be fals a-monge kythe & kynne. ... and here kynne = kin.

I'm having trouble believing this is anything other than a mistake for kith and kin unless used more literally:

By the end of this disaster, the Bull stands amidst the corpses of kith and kine. ... Is he standing among the corpses of friends and family or friends and cows? --AnWulf ... Ferþu Hal! 17:18, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
  • As the editor who added this, I agree with you. I think from memory I added it as some kind of special request.. but I share your analysis of it. Ƿidsiþ 17:53, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
Maybe the meaning should be changed? I looked on sundry pages with a Google search and didn't find any usage along the line of "relatives and property; one's total possessions". If no objects, I'll put the first meaning as an error for kith and kin ... As for the other meaning, it looks more like someone trying to backform a meaning from the error (like folks backformed a meaning for "hone in", an error for "home in"). I think it should go unless someone can find a few usages of it with that meaning but I'll leave that yu. --AnWulf ... Ferþu Hal! 14:24, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

The attitude of not having to answer to anyone

Is there a word or phrase that describes the attitude or ideal of not having to answer to anyone? 20:24, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

Headstrong? Recalcitrant? ---> Tooironic 09:59, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
I am "my own man/woman"? --Robert.Baruch 22:31, 26 December 2011 (UTC)


Is there any methodical difference between baking and roasting in oven, or is it just that some foods you bake and others you roast? --Hekaheka 05:54, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

AFAIK, you bake stuff in an oven, while you can roast things in an oven OR over a fire. Of course, collocations vary; normally, one says, "Let's bake a loaf of bread!" not "roast a loaf of bread". ---> Tooironic 09:20, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
A baked potato is very different from a roast potato, but I can't explain how. Equinox 14:27, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
To me, baking implies the application of dry heat within a container (oven), whereas in roasting the thing being cooked normally lies in a liquid (e.g. fat), or is basted with a liquid during cooking. SemperBlotto 14:39, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
Okay, that explains the potatoes. You can bake a potato in a microwave or conventional oven, and you're basically just heating it up. But a roast potato is cooked in meat fat (right?) so it ends up golden and crispy. Also, a roast one tends to be peeled first, while a baked potato is done with the skin on, but that's a cultural / fried egg thing. Equinox 15:10, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
Chestnuts roasting on an open fire isn't lying in a liquid, for one example of why I don't think that's the proper distinction between the two, although I cant say what the distinction is, exactly. Roasting on a spit is another, I think, though typically what's being roasted has liquids inside, such as animal or game meat. sewnmouthsecret 08:47, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

home is where the heart is

"One's true home is where one feels happiest." Really? I thought this proverb meant something like, "Your home will always be the place you feel the most affection for, regardless of whether it is your true home or not." ---> Tooironic 09:58, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

McGraw-Hill has both[1]: "People long to be at home.; Your home is whatever place you long to be." Equinox 14:26, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
There is also home is where the hearth is, which brings up many Google hits. I don't know if this may be the original form of the phrase, but it would make sense because it corresponds more closely to the Dutch equivalent, eigen haard is goud waard. —CodeCat 19:42, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

nuclear as rhyme

Are these edits sound? [2], [3]. The stress doesn't seem right for a rhyme: it's NU-clear, not nu-CLEAR. Equinox 15:08, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Undid those edits independently of this thread. A lot of users 'mistakenly' add rhymes based only on the last syllable, which is not what we do here. The IPA in the entry clinched it for me. Mglovesfun (talk) 16:31, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
I'm amazed at the number of people, some of them well educated, who seem to think that nuclear rhymes with avuncular! Dbfirs 23:09, 30 December 2011 (UTC)


How are these definitions any different from each other? How can "rude" constitute a single definition when rude itself has five meanings? DAVilla 12:48, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Rude might not have had 5 senses at the time when insolent was created. There is probably work to be done there. Equinox 00:37, 9 January 2012 (UTC)


Why is this in "Category:English politically correct terms"? Equinox 23:22, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Ditto person. Sure, policeperson is PC, but just person? Equinox 01:46, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
Also -person is a peculiar entry --Simplus2 13:16, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
Robin Lionheart seems to have added a couple of hundred of these last year - most of which look like being simply gender-neutral rather than politically correct. For a lot of them, I can't even think what a gender-specific version might be. 16:34, 28 December 2011 (UTC)


Surely this isn't a suffix! Everything here should be moved to handed, IMO. Equinox 12:55, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

  • Add -goaler and -looking and -cheeked and -headed to this debate. Maybe this part should be linked from these pages. I dunno how to do that. --Simplus2 13:10, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
    • Yep, delete/merge everything. It's a misunderstanding than using a hyphen for affixes is a notation used by dictionaries (for example, to distinguish between re and re-) while something like two-headed uses an actual hyphen. Mglovesfun (talk) 18:35, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
Merged. Equinox 00:39, 9 January 2012 (UTC)


This term is marked as an obsolete spelling, but I think the spelling is still used, although considered nonstandard. Could it be both? —CodeCat 19:33, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

It can be. (I don't know that it is, but believe you.) You can use {{obsolete|now|_|nonstandard}} or similar.​—msh210 (talk) 08:16, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
Seems to be very much in use. A Google search gets 2,7 million hits. Msh210's suggestion looks fine. --Hekaheka 00:18, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
I'd have to agree with Hekaheka (talkcontribs) here, this is still very much in use. -- Cirt (talk) 23:35, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

road works

I'm surprised this entry doesn't exist yet. Can it be added, since we already have roadworks? —CodeCat 20:38, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Road works seems to be significantly more common than roadworks, so WT:COALMINE says yes. —RuakhTALK 21:48, 22 December 2011 (UTC)


I was thinking of adding an adjective sense of leading meaning "playing a primary role in a film or similar", as found in the phrases leading man, leading actor, etc. Then I realized that it might be a verb (lead). But google books:"led|leading in films" turns up nothing relevant; likewise "to lead in films". So maybe it's an adjective after all — but I'm not confident enough saying so to add it. Thoughts?​—msh210 (talk) 08:14, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

and leading role You could be right. COBUILD has it as an adj. and gives leading actor as an example. Includes two more senses (although I'm hard put to see much difference between the them :-/) as leading industrial nation and leading group (in front in a race). -- ALGRIF talk 15:39, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
Though the collocations with "man" and "lady" are limited to performances and seem like live metaphors when applied outside of theatrical type performances, other collocations of "leading" such as "leading role" don't seem so limited. Apparently some professional lexicographers think these are not transparent: leading man at OneLook Dictionary Search and leading lady at OneLook Dictionary Search. In contrast we don't have leading man and leading lady. DCDuring TALK 18:49, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
I would say it's a verb:
  • *She is the very leading lady.
  • *The lady became leading.
If it were an adjective, those should probably work.--Brett 01:41, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
But if it were a verb, then we would say There are two ladies leading rather than There are two leading ladies, wouldn't we? . Another point in favor of adjective would be the Oscar nominations .. Best actor / actress in a leading role. It has to be an adj in this phrase. -- ALGRIF talk 14:29, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
"There are two running ladies" works. So does "best juggler in a moving vehicle".​—msh210 (talk) 00:55, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
My point being that an English L1 speaker sees the difference! Basically because of recognizing the adjectival sense in There are two leading ladies. -- ALGRIF talk 14:57, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

parent of my child

What's the word in English meaning "parent of one's child"? There is one, right? If not, do other languages have a word for this? --Simplus2 12:34, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

Well, there's baby mama and baby daddy, but those terms are somewhat loaded. I think for most of history people just said "the father/mother of my child" in any case where "husband" or "wife" didn't cover it. —Angr 14:36, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
Don't we use the terms biological father and biological mother? As in, say, "my son Timmy's biological mother"? --Robert.Baruch 22:26, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
Just "my son Timmy's mother", no?​—msh210 (talk) 19:39, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
In Dutch "The father of my child" is used to explain in one sentence: "We are divorced, I hate him, and that's how got my son". Joepnl 01:59, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
The term co-parent exists, and IMHO is usually pretty clear in context, but is not terribly common. I wouldn't expect most people to recognize it. —RuakhTALK 02:11, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

let the buyer beware

Isn't this a proverb, as opposed to a verb? ---> Tooironic 23:43, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

Seems pretty amateur to me. Michael Z. 2011-12-29 04:03 z
I've never actually heard it, but it doesn't look like a proverb, too literal, looks more like a verb use only in the infinitive and the imperative (same as the infinitive of course). Mglovesfun (talk) 15:36, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
It is more usual in the Latin - see w:Caveat emptor. SemperBlotto 15:39, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
buyer beware is usually a catchall phrase for consumers making purchases or signing up for services; often these services are confusing to the general public, i.e. purchasing real property, buying a car, signing up for phone service, buying jewelry from shady street vendors, etc. I'd say it can be taken proverbially and literally. sewnmouthsecret 08:41, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
Thought I've seen both usages, it's more common as simply, buyer beware. -- Cirt (talk) 23:34, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

push (early Australian slang)

"Push.—A company of rowdy fellows gathered together for ungentle purposes." (from wikisource:The Songs of a Sentimental Bloke/The Glossary); What C.J. Dennis really means is a violent gang. Several Wikipedia articles refer to a push but other that this, I can't find a formal definition. See for eg. w:Sydney Push, w:Rocks Push, w:The Songs of a Sentimental Bloke.

It would be good to added into the push article. Moondyne 14:22, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

up the aisle

I feel sure we should have this, for example google books:"go up the aisle" and google books:"got him up the aisle", quite how to define it, I don't know. I also don't think the sense should be at aisle, but rather at up the aisle. Mglovesfun (talk) 17:01, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

  • I've had a stab at it. Feel free to improve (and add citations). SemperBlotto 08:39, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
    • Looks pretty good so far. ;) -- Cirt (talk) 23:32, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

dictionnaire de langue

French includes a useful distinction between dictionnaire de langue (a dictionary providing definitions + linguistic information, such as etymology, pronunciation, gender, etc.) and dictionnaire encyclopédique (a dictionary including in some entries encyclopedic information, e.g. the causes of a disease, how it is treated, etc., as well as linguistic information ; generally speaking, most entries about proper nouns are 100% encyclopedic, while only some of the other entries include encyclopedic information). I understand that only the first kind of dictionary is traditional in English, but what are the English names for dictionnaire de langue and dictionnaire encyclopédique? Would not be useful to be more precise when describing the difference between Wikipedia and Wiktionary e.g. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, Wiktionary is a language dictionary? Lmaltier 08:50, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

Well, the second one is encyclopedic dictionary. --Simplus2 08:59, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
Well, not really. It's mainly just a language dictionary with some extended features. It deliberately avoids encyclopaedic material. In English, dictionary nearly always means just a language dictionary. Dbfirs 23:03, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
So, language dictionary may be used in English? I would use it to refer to the project, mainly for people used to encyclopedic dictionaries (in some countries, best-selling dictionaries are encyclopedic dictionaries). The fact that we include proper nouns when they are words (for etymology, pronunciation, etc.) may be misleading because, unlike Wiktionary, almost all dictionaries including proper nouns are encyclopedic dictionaries (except some specialized dictionaries, e.g. those specialized in placename etymologies). Of course, this is a huge plus of the project, especially for pronunciation: I don't know any other dictionary systematically giving the pronunciation of proper nouns, but this difference may be misleading. Lmaltier 08:29, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
I'd regard "language dictionary" as tautology, but that doesn't prevent you using the term to make a clear distinction. Specialist encyclopaedic dictionaries are sometimes called "A dictionary of" [specialist subject]. Dbfirs 22:17, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

word request

Is there a word for the style/device of making one aspect of a literary work contrast with another drastically? E.g., making the medium/style of a book contrast with the subject matter (as in Maus*) or having the tune of a song contrast with its lyrics (as in "Copacabana" (w:))?

*Nowadays, there are many serious graphic novels, but I don't think that that was the case when Maus came out.​—msh210 (talk) 19:45, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

Now re-asked elsewhere.​—msh210 (talk) 06:46, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
I look forward to the answer. DCDuring TALK 14:23, 1 January 2012 (UTC)