User talk:Rhyminreason

Definition from Wiktionary, the free dictionary
Jump to navigation Jump to search


Hello, welcome to Wiktionary, and thank you for your contributions so far.

If you are unfamiliar with wiki editing, take a look at Help:How to edit a page. It is a concise list of technical guidelines to the wiki format we use here: how to, for example, make text boldfaced or create hyperlinks. Feel free to practice in the sandbox. If you would like a slower introduction we have a short tutorial.

These links may help you familiarize yourself with Wiktionary:

  • Entry layout (EL) is a detailed policy documenting how Wiktionary pages should be formatted. All entries should conform to this standard. The easiest way to start off is to copy the contents of an existing page for a similar word, and then adapt it to fit the entry you are creating.
  • Our Criteria for inclusion (CFI) define exactly which words can be added to Wiktionary, though it may be a bit technical and longwinded. The most important part is that Wiktionary only accepts words that have been in somewhat widespread use over the course of at least a year, and citations that demonstrate usage can be asked for when there is doubt.
  • If you already have some experience with editing our sister project Wikipedia, then you may find our guide for Wikipedia users useful.
  • The FAQ aims to answer most of your remaining questions, and there are several help pages that you can browse for more information.
  • A glossary of our technical jargon, and some hints for dealing with the more common communication issues.
  • If you have anything to ask about or suggest, we have several discussion rooms. Feel free to ask any other editors in person if you have any problems or question, by posting a message on their talk page.

You are encouraged to add a BabelBox to your userpage. This shows which languages you know, so other editors know which languages you'll be working on, and what they can ask you for help with.

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wiktionarian! If you have any questions, bring them to the Wiktionary:Information desk, or ask me on my talk page. If you do so, please sign your posts with four tildes: ~~~~ which automatically produces your username and the current date and time.

Again, welcome! --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 13:55, 19 January 2018 (UTC)


UK traffic sign 601.1.svg Please stop disrupting the Etymology Scriptorium with non-sequitur speculation, as you did here.

You've been called out at least three times for this before. mellohi! (僕の乖離) 17:25, 2 February 2018 (UTC)

Raison d'etre[edit]

@Rhyminreason, what are you doing here? Paul G's query at the start of this thread is trivial to look into, and yet all you've done is respond with (what appears to me as) ungrounded nonsense. I ask out of curiosity and honest confusion -- what are you hoping to accomplish here, at Wiktionary? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 22:45, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

@Eirikr: I took the liberty to move your question to my talk page, because it was off-topic at the tea room and only directed at me.
However, I choose to ignore it, just as you choose to ignore my statement about the comparability, which already answered your question about that.
Maybe I will answer later. Rhyminreason (talk) 00:43, 1 March 2018 (UTC)
PS: Unfortunately I messed up the ping before. Rhyminreason (talk) 12:02, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

Warning No. 2[edit]

UK traffic sign 601.1.svg Please stop disrupting the Tea Room, as you did here.

You've been called out at least six times for disruption before. mellohi! (僕の乖離) 01:37, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

On another note, your attempts at pinging Eirikr here failed because you used his signature instead of his actual username. 01:41, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

@Hillcrest98 Of what are you warning me, Unintended consequences? Rhyminreason (talk) 15:13, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
I have noticed that you are continuing to add nonsense to multiple forum pages, despite being warned, having it explained to you, and having your additions reverted. What you're being warned of now is that if you continue in this vein, you will be blocked. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 00:30, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
@metaknowledge: On the risk of more nonsense, let me ask, which meaning of nonsense is it? Rhyminreason (talk) 19:11, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

Ambox blue question.svg
This blocked user is asking that his or her block be reviewed:

Rhyminreason (block logactive blockscontribsdeleted contribsedit filter loguser creation logchange block settingsunblock)

Request reason:

Meta is reverting me on sight, blocking me now with a blanket statement. The latest revert accompinying the block is a pre-judgement in a discussion of languages without speaking the necessary language, on account of other users who's conduct is no less disruptive. Here a post to the etymology scriptorium was reverted with the suggestion to post an eymologic question to the tea room instead. I feel there is a strong preoccupation against me. I attempted to discuss prior reverts on my talk page only to be ignored. This is unacceptable. I know there are a few good admins around here, who don't honour fool language, however carefully it's worded. I hope those will read it. The block is only for a day, yes -- this time. Unblocking should be a sign. Yes, I am not yet an active editor: Quite frankly, in this atmosphere I don't think it will be worth the hassle to become one.

Just so you know: I attempted to discuss on my talk page prior events, but which were not reverts on my talk page. English is hard. Rhyminreason (talk) 23:48, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

कान्हा (kānhā)[edit]

It's obviously from कृष्ण (kŕṣṇ), which you would be able to tell if you had looked at any reliable source. The development is regular: kŕṣṇa > Prakrit kaṇṇa > Old Hindi kān(h)ā > Hindi kānhā. Your ideas have no basis in the sound laws that govern Indo-Aryan language development, not to mention linking it to the word you did is kind of offensive. —AryamanA (मुझसे बात करेंयोगदान) 16:34, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

@AryamanA: There's a reasonable reply in your comment. My question is helpful because it revealed that the etymology at कान्हा (kānhā) could be improved a) with the intermediate step and b) with the appropriate sources. If that's the case, why would that information have been too much to ask for? Rhyminreason (talk) 09:49, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
@AryamanA: Thanks for your translation. I have to admit, My first guess was हर्रे (harre) looks like a pictograph of a rabbit, so, yeah, I can be outright paranoid at times. It's only fair if you all are highly skeptic in return. Now that I saw those "ears" are quite common in devangari script, I don't really think so anymore. Google translate only gave the transcription "harre", so my imagination was kindled, likening it to hare.
However, in the meantime I found that h?r- in some form describes bright colors in PIE and Sanskrit. Incidentally, the fruit w:Terminalia_arjuna (via w:Myrobalans) looks goldish and the byname arjuna attess to that.
In other news, McGregor has कान्ह glossed also as "black". I don't know if you read the reverted comment -- that one explains my hypothesis a bit. So this was really not so much about religion. I might be provocative, but I didn't mean to offend anyone. I hope you accept my apology. Rhyminreason (talk) 10:29, 12 March 2018 (UTC)
It's okay, I'm sure you did not mean to offend. As for your theories, Devanagari is not pictographic or logographic, it is an abugida, somewhat like a syllabary. The word हर्रे (harre) can be split into (ha) + (ra) + (vowel killer) + (ra) + (e). *h is not a phoneme in Proto-Indo-European (PIE), so I do not know what you mean; maybe you're talking about *h₁, *h₂, *h₃, which are called "laryngeals" in PIE, but these were historically lost in Sanskrit and can never lead to the actual (ha) sound. The word हर्रे (harre) (which as far as I know is an obsolete or regional form of हड़ (haṛ)) is from Sanskrit हरीतक (harītaka, literally that which is green), from हरित (harita, green). So you're on the right track, but not totally there.
कान्हा (kānhā) / कान्ह (kānha) probably did mean "black" historically, (as did their ancestor Sanskrit कृष्ण (kṛṣṇa)), but that meaning is obsolete now. There's no relation to Hindi काली (kālī) or काला (kālā).
I advise you to not pose your own theories without having a solid grasp of the scholarly research that goes into established etymologies. Too many mistakes can be made in that manner. —AryamanA (मुझसे बात करेंयोगदान) 00:00, 13 March 2018 (UTC)
@AryamanA: Regarding the color words, I meant h?r- as a catch-all for various terms in that pattern in various languages (most notably *hairaz (grey, noble)), among which were some laryngeals, but I meant an aspirant and read laryngeals as such. So, thanks for the reminder. I lost the list I had compiled anyway. Let's not get side tracked; Back on topic:
I'm still trying to understand the full argument. You wrote, "The development is regular: kŕṣṇa > Prakrit kaṇṇa".
  • Is that something you could add to the etymology?
  • I guess the Prakrit is much later than some cannabis words, and I only looked at and linked to the Hindu anyway, so there's some lack of rigor from me ... but, none of that rules out a connection, which is to be expected because I didn't give anything else to rule out (except for a short post to the ES deleted by Metaknowledge, in which I pointed out to look at the senses black, terrible etc.).
By the way, black goes back to a root to shine, paradoxically ... a much more endearing basis for a spiritual name.
And to be perfectly honest with you, I was considering Gras (grass, specifically cannabis, weed). Honesty pays, right? Check this out. I wasn't sure whether PIE *g would become k in Sanskrit and tried to find a *g root with indo-arian descendants listed. I had found *ǵerh₂- (to grow old, mature), which lists जरति (járati). So I tentatively checked Gujarati and found some info on Prakrit I hadn't read before, which answer my questions above a bit. I followed through to w:Gurjar which has an etymology somewhere in the text proposing gur+urjar=enemy+destroyer. I wondered, if gur is enemy, what's guru? Well, that's quite something: Skip the heavy route and go straight to "the syllables gu as 'darkness' and ru as 'destroyer'". What a coincidence, I was, after all, still looking for info on black cannabis. So, let me rephrase the question: could gu have anything to do with it? And by the way, what does *gʷréh₂us have to do with *ǵerh₂- and *ǵʰreh₁- (to grow (of a plant?)) (whence green)? Oh and we have *gʷerH- (to express approval, praise), whence sanskr. जरते (járate), गृणाति (gṛṇā́ti, cog. gratis) and more -- looks much better a source for guru, IMHO, if that *gʷe is close to gu.

No need to respond, but please take notice. -- Rhyminreason (talk) 03:10, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

I'm sorry, this is just wrong. I no longer have the inclination to explain why. —AryamanA (मुझसे बात करेंयोगदान) 13:22, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
@AryamanA: That's OK, I don't expect you to explain what caused the sound shift in the first place, and so we just assume it's a natural simplifying reduction. But that leaves a lot to guess.
Notice Kot, *gʷuē- (excrement, dung), *gʷēdh- (muck, excrement, dung, filth, disgust, vermin). Now, I could see how you might take that as offense again. Be assured it's not meant like that. Rather, it would be a terrific fit for a sense development involving terrible, and perhaps even fit to "gur" - enemy as a pejorative. The sense for terribly shiny black krshna would not fit in too well, but I would suppose that terrible is not the primary reading, and krsna<*kr̥snós (black) would seem clear enough. What does fit is that fruit gets heavier and darker with maturity, and more so, if left growing old it will rot. I think that makes a ton of sense and agriculture is a good source for words and spiritual metaphors.
I like to think of this not as wrong, but incomplete and maybe problematic, because ...
The point is, I didn't expect Prakrit was that young. It cannot be the source of Ancient Greek, Trachian, etc., alright. But I would still hold on to the general idea around black, smoke, burning, terrible, shiny, enlightening, etc. And I would look for that close to northern India because of the modern perception of the cultivation of cannabis, "Kush" being close to a brand name for a subspecies. But, Africa has a fair share of cannabis cultivation, too (even has a Kush, too), so maybe I should let it go, indeed. Rhyminreason (talk) 14:15, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
You're connecting a lot of seemingly unrelated words. Even if any one of your connections is likely or possible, all of them combined make for a whole lot of speculation. I'm not offended, not at all, I just see no reason to expend my energy on a very fringe theory that has little foundation in modern scholarship. —AryamanA (मुझसे बात करेंयोगदान) 18:02, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
I'd like to make a convincing argument to the opposite effect, but I can't tell anyone what to do. Suffice to say, I do actually feel quite blessed not to get lost in minute details, but sadly that comes down to making unlikely predictions, and many mistakes. Chalk that up to the learning process.

I was just reminded of geo-, and thought that would fit to the above mentioned gu, because earth is dark; Coincidentally it is also very old. And "scorched earth", modulo the negative connotation, does not need any explanation either. I shouldn't mention yin/yang in this context, but there it is. Or juju.

The following got much longer than I meant to and I don't intend it for anyone to read, I'll have enough of a hard time myself and still need to connect the dots and weed out the contradictions. I want this here anyway, because it's pretty nifty to have the links and a backup, if nothing else. Could set up a server but I already exceeded my target 5 minute timelimit by 2 hours.

I learned about *keh₂n- (to sing), too. Now that's one mighty interesting new perspective for anything kana. Comparing sing and singe, one has to wonder whether those are related: Singing songs around a bon fire seems like it could be an ancient ritual (and to stay on topic, goes well with smoking a joint, which by the way might be jazz slang for smoking one in a joint group, not alone), "to burn for something" is quite poetic, etc. etc. Likewise, because of calm (see there), I suspect a connection between black and burned. I also think *kan- would fit well to bekannt (cf. famous probably meaning talked about, cf. infamous as if unknown). The Latin carmen (song) even has an 'r' (but also an 'm' ... weird, I am referring to *krsn- black, of course). I wonder about the chance to connect *keh₂n- with *senk- (and by extension *sengw) -- now I'm grabbing for a straw, but -- looking at *singwaną etc. I'd try to see *kana as a remnant of some *singkana or so; Or the other way around, because I have not the foggiest idea how the suffix *-ana developed. That's not even a straw, that's a needlestack with perhaps a straw in it. Reading this again, it strikes me as nonsensical, too, to consider Germanic as the root for the Latin, Persian, etc. But the next paragraph somewhat convinced me againRhyminreason (talk) 22:34, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

  • Sadly, there are few derived terms listed at *sengʷ- (to sink, fall drop). Likewise, the root for schwarz (black) is eluding me still.
  • I probably shouldn't say this, because explaining one mystery with another is most often a trap, but if there is some *sinkana that became kana, then, because *sin became a taboo, sin being the mother of all taboos. Imagine singing being forbidden, or some songs having sinful content. I can't stomach to strike this. Why does Germanic have no other cognate then hen, but all the others derive sing words of it? Because of being superseded by sing, which appears only in Germanic. It's probably nothing, but consider how important singing is for learning language as a young child. I see now that sin gives a redlink PIE root, I thought it was highly uncertain!?Rhyminreason (talk) 22:34, 17 July 2018 (UTC) That hardly fits the narrative, or at least begs for an in depth explanation, if trying to connect it back to Classic Syriac qnpʾ, Germanic *hanapiz, and all that at κάνναβις. The Sanskrit is sana ... so intuitively one'd think then that Sanskrit krsna, Prakr. kanna must be unrelated, but there's something about multiple back and forth borrowing.
  • "Song of songs" as polysemic song of fire seems endearing. שיר(song), שריפה(fire). Quite the coincidence.
  • scorn, Old French escharn reminds me of verscharren, perhaps Schande, schänden, Schandlied, but am too tired to falsify.
  • vis-a-vis kennen (to know), Egyptian Arabic oḡneya (song) reminds of gnosis etc. গান (gan) too, Cherokee: ᎧᏃᎩᏍᏗ (kanogisdi) -- get out -- Chinese gŏ, ge, etc. etc.? The Maltese għanja we have as from the Arabic oḡneya (song). The Sanskrit gita and related terms remind of Arabic kitab (book ... song book?) Said to be from a root writing, why not the other way around? At any rate "writing history" fits either. The Hindi {{m|hi|गाना]], is closer yet, its PIE *geH- (to sing, cry) notes difficulties (I am all too often keen on too many *g- roots to expect German participle ge-, here gesang ... hey, how does keen fit in here?).
  • Ger. Lied on the other hand has something of light.
  • keen is indeed related to kennen, *ǵneh₃-, but sense 3 "Having a fine edge or point; sharp." tells another story, cf. archaic Hochgesang (Hochkultur), C# (cee sharp) and why is that called a key anyway (because of how to tune a guitar, turning the screws like nails? Or because clavis is close to PIE *kley (to hear)?). Under ety 2, the single sense "A prolonged wail for a deceased person", from Irish, looks a lot like it could relate to *keh₂n-, cano.
  • And then there's the unclear honor. There's also onus (burden) from *h₃énh₂os from *h₃enh₂- (glossed to onerate; to charge), related to *-h₃onh₂- et al, which is an unclear reconstruction for a suffix designating burden, authority, your honor. I've got a lot more on this, but because I don't know Laryngeal theory.
  • Now take geo-, ge, earth, and try to explain all of the above as basically from that. Or what's the idea here? I don't even know. I guess genesis, gnosis, origin, *gneH, *genH as songs of origin isn't too wrong?

I have to say that wiktionary feels very empowering. Of course I overestimate my abilities and underestimate the difficulty of ... compiling a dictionary (almost wrote to construct). So I'm looking for some grounding. And grounded I was. I'd like to give back, eventually. But as you can see, I'm quite busy. Rhyminreason (talk) 03:30, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

Your speculative screeds[edit]

Wiktionary's fora are for building the dictionary and improving it. Nothing more, nothing less. Your baseless and absurd etymological proposals do nothing but waste our time, as I have already explained to you. You need to stop posting them. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 17:36, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

It appears that you don't understand what "sum of parts" means. Stop wasting other people's time. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 22:18, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
@Metaknowledge: I believe the phrase "kill it with fire" originates from an online meme (or trope, or whatever you want to call it, you know what I mean) around disgusting spiders, in which case the expression is not figurative but merely exageration. I can only guess that not figurative is the part of the definition at sum of parts which you wanted to point out. Is that correct?
Generally, your reverts are sometimes reasonable, I have to admit, as far as I am open to critique. But your form of critique raises criticism, too. It's kind of lazy. You seem to try to be objective and patient as much as possible and I try to respect that, but it makes me curios. Frankly I'm a bit worried that you are overreacting.
Could you explain your objection to the question on the etymology of Hindi kanha (diff)? Likewise, the question for the difference between *flatas and *flakas was likely valid, even if packed in fluff. Etc. etc.
Also, you indirectly calling Starostin a "crackpot" borders on defamation. I mean, the compilation is useful; Reconstructions are inherently probabilistic, so that they are unlikely is a given, but that doesn't invalidate the work as unscientific, if just a small share has some chance of being true.

Rhyminreason (talk) 01:39, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

Excessive Block[edit]

Please, someone repeal the block duration, it's unreasonable (diff). A month would be excessive but OK, maybe a year, but not indefinite. Rhyminreason (talk) 22:48, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

@Chuck Entz: Wyang complained about being kept from work, so I don't think it right to bother that blocking admin any further. Since you are actively monitoring for problematic users, I'll have to ask you first to review this -- also because you commented before. I'd like to defend myself as a last resort, if that's OK. Rhyminreason (talk) 18:34, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

To be clear: I meant myself with "problematic", though I don't want to be rounded up with vandals. And I didn't intend to drive a fork between the admins, so I'll take the lack of response as just that, not as validation of the block, rather indifference. Rhyminreason (talk) 01:59, 10 July 2018 (UTC)


@Per utramque cavernam: Compare that to the semantic of the stem of insane.

BTW I doubt rock spider reaches notability, ugly a term as it is. Anyhow, since you asked, consider that the spider as prison tattoo signifies predatory behavior ie. drug dealing, where prison tattoos follow established symbolism, and that prostitution often involves drug addiction as a means to control the victims. So the Urban Dictionary quip was probably an after thought.

I hope this doesn't count as block evasion? I should not go on to make responding on my talk page a habit, but I am suffering from withdrawal. Rhyminreason (talk) 05:06, 30 May 2018 (UTC)


@Jberkel: Do you have a source for the ety at bunda#Portuguese you added in diff?

Of course I expected the same PIE root as for bottom, butt. I still can't rule out a Portuguese innovation of this sense that entered the bunda languages. Further I am just trying to connect loose ends, because punk mentions Spanish "pu(n)ta" "pun(t)o" (prostitute), but I don't see "punta" "punto" in that sense and I am frankly too tired to verify whether that's mere stipulation or an obscure word. Ultimately, I don't trust a 19th century dictionary e.g. written in Portugal for a term used in Brazilian Portuguese that has hardly any currency there in Portugal.

Either way, I can't fix the entry. Can you take a second for a second look?

Rhyminreason (talk) 01:11, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

Added a ref to the entry. – Jberkel 12:00, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

I found Greenspan all tentatively suggested "*putV" as one ultra conserved word, having *buti and *butu as derived Nilo-Saharan and Niger-Congo proto forms. So, Proto Human is ... Portuguese? lol. Rhyminreason (talk) 23:17, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

Ulme, elm-tree[edit]

A popular etymon for the city w:de:Ilmenau#History Ilmenau is an older i-form of Ulme. Grimm mentions "ahd. u. mhd. hochstufenform elm, ilm", i.e. Old High German. We only have this as MHG at Ulme. Saying this just in case you missed it.

But of course I went looking further.

  • Russian ильм (ilʹm) and Czech wikt:cs:jilm for the elm might be interesting, but I cannot read Czech and didn't find anything on the Russian. Thuringia, the state governing Ilmenau today, shares a boarder with Czechia, by the way.

More precisely, the river by the city is also called Ilm. That's likely older, I guess.

  • w:de:Ilm_(Saale)#Namensherkunft lists an alternative idea: "Baltic-Celtic" origin (?) from Lithuanian "elmes" ("die Flüssigkeit, die den Leichen aus dem Mund kommt" -- the fluid that comes out of the corpses mouth??? w:de:Ulme says the elm was in ancient Greece a symbol for death and mourning). The Ilm flows into the w:de:Saale, which has an extensive etymology saying river ... by willows, but mentions everything from Ibrahim Ibn Yaqqub ("S.lawa"?) over Slavic Settlers to Strabon (general name meaning flowing body of water?) and the Wends ("Solowa" -- salt+water,river,meadow?); A comment on the talk page links it to Sal-Weide ([[1]]), which says from a root meaning dark, grey, etc., salix (willow) just says PIE willow.
  • Other rivers are named w:de:Ilm as well. w:de:Ilm_(Abens) says from PIE "*el" - "to move about", which we don't have; It's attested as "Ilma" from 821 CE.

This is where I should stop, but have to wonder what *el- is. I wont draw preliminary conclusions from a slew of *?el- roots. Or who borrowed timber.

By the way, is this not by any chance related to the name Helmholtz? I often wondered whether that's helmets made of wood. PS: compare Helmschrott, Helmholdt. The elm-wood is called Rüster; Is that comparable to Rüstung (armor)? I guess that nobody knows..

@Hillcrest98: I just wanted to point out a potential /i/ influence, because you said u-stem, if that's any help. Now I'm sure somebody else will point that out, but I've already written it up. Rhyminreason (talk) 22:54, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

genette, genet[edit]

@Benwing2 @Lambiam: fr.WT says it is from spanish jineta, from jinete, from the Berbers, who had their own script and quite different language. There is a semantic gap, and confusion with civet does not make it any easier. I hope the questioner will be content with the french link, anyhow. Rhyminreason (talk) 10:39, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

(@Benwing2) Reusing the common name for one species (or genus) to name other, unrelated and unfamiliar but similar-looking species, is something that happens all the time. The visual similarity between (at least some) civets and raccoons, whose habitats do not overlap, is enough for me to think the semantic gap is not a big deal. So if the Berber origin is right (Wikipedia Genet (animal) states as a fact that the common genet was brought from the Maghreb to the Mediterranean region as a semi-domestic animal about 1000 to 1500 years ago, and from there introduced to southwestern Europe during historical times; however, the source cited in support of this is much more tentative in its claims), the name was originally something like Zenata cat, which can easily have been shortened – just like Turkey fowl became turkey. Plausible enough, although lacking a proper documentary trail.  --Lambiam 12:07, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
Rhetoric question: Could this be related to the w:saber-toothed cat? Ger. Säbel, saber is a stretch to civet and genet, but that should be expected if the saber tooth cat went extinct around 10 kya. Verifying whether "Saber toothed Tiger" is a neologism should be easy -- or not, if myths had lived on long after extinction, but everyone now assumed it's so obvious that we don't even need an etymology section for it. smilidon, the scientific term, is new at any rate.
I find the mysterious w:Zanata stone quite reminiscent of a tooth and/or rather a sword or dagger. Either way, teeth and bone do have ancient spiritual significance. I'd tentatively look to es. saber (to know), and compare that to wisdom tooth and a sharp mind, but I am sure most people are well satisfied with the PIE root to sapience, as if it came out of nowhere. The ivory tower, by the way, has a purported origin in the w:song of songs, but the Hebrew just translates to long tooth, as far as I can tell, so the connotation is implicit, and known to us only from commentary. Nevertheless, the tiger is indeed related to Sumerian "ti" (arrow, maybe life, see w:TI_(cuneiform)) -- imaginably, the reason among others for this was the teeth lending themselves well for arrow tips (or because tigers dart out of an ambush? Anyhow, a foreign influence to Berber language along with metal work knowledge is not too crazy. Whereas imagining folks riding on saber tooth cats kind of would be, indeed, but highly entertaining -- Pieter Hugo's photographs of Nigerian Hyena Handlers (Gadawan Kura) comes to mind, said to be "traditional". Overall in most of Europe a loan is most likely, even the Japanse "kenshiko" (sword tooth tiger) might be just a semantic loan, but that the loan is so readily accepted, and the weird name to begin with make one think. Does that sound crazy? I can't even say what prompted me to make that rhyme (perhaps the Zobel, yeah, definitely the sable cat), and there is very little reason to it, except that swords for teeth are awesome and that I'm sure of other examples of animal nicknames made to allude to their awesome distant relatives, cf. perhaps Waschbär (racoon) which just shares the name with Bär, but surely is not easily confused with a bear, it's not even brown, but perhaps just as wildly ferocious. So, for sable there are соболь (soboli - sabel ... though I see Kobold and ferrets are mean little house poltergeists aren't they?) and Persian smwl (more there), at which point I have to give up. (no need to ping here) Rhyminreason (talk) 13:34, 1 July 2018 (UTC)
Add to that: this off base stipulation about cat from a root to cut figures right into this, if only because the existence of so many potentially old cut roots. Although I hear you, that would be rather an argument for a chance match without any relation, but there's more: Catholic, greek kata -- I jest; I don't see a fit, but it's obscure. Better: Kette (chain), probably connected with cassis (hunting net), Pokorny (often outdated!) sees casa as a possible cognate, PIE *kat (to link or weave together; chain, net) or *ket (hut, shed) -- after all we say "Hauskatze" (house cat, literally domestic), a house or wall may be made of stone and stones can cut and are grey (cp. hare, from a root grey), even a hunting net would have stones for ballast; More so, the Old Egyptian sek- paradigm with sekhat, sekhar, sekmet etc. (apparently holy animal names?) does remind of *sek- (to cut), cf. Jap. "sekki" (stone tool), Arab. صَخْرَة‎‎ (ṣaḵra - rock), Hungarian szikla (rock), Latin saxum (rock) ... and perhaps sacred, secure (cp. cast seperate divisions in society for such a sense development from cutting; castle - shutting in/out; garden, paradise, etc. etc.); Further Armenian քար (kʿar - rock; related to some words "kur" - mountain?). I did not miss that "szikla" is said to be from the slavic "skala", from Lt., from PIE *skend- (“to jump, scale, climb”), but I don't think that's the end of it, cf. scatter and scratch and secant. A look at cat would be incomplete without considering the mouse, which at the very least rhymes on house (and as an after thought, Mauer, murus, PIE *mey- is polysemic enough to fantasize a lot, e.g. between to bind and small. If house is considered, look at dominus, indecisive between *demh₂- (“to tame, subdue”) and *dem- (“to build”). Sadly dam, dämmen doesn't tell me much (cf. Hebrew "sekhar" - dam, also sugar, perhaps sugar crystal), but ... at least I found domino might be derived from finding rocks of suitable size to align in a row to build a wall, lol. I am a bit dumbfound that demo-cracy, from δῆμος is not seen as belonging to dominus (e.g. rule of the subdued?), but then *deh₂- (to divide, share), at least makes my point that every other term has a root related to cutting, dividing, separating ... I mean, the stone age went on for 100.000s of years, it's an entertaining thought that it has left a mark. Rhyminreason (talk) 11:53, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
And I forgot to mention carat, which with *ḱerh₂- (horn) (more there) ties right back in to the saber-toothed story, kind of. Whereas carus (precious, dear, lovely) further fits the notion of tame, pet. Are we really saying carat has nothing to do with Prokorni's *kar- ("stone; hard"), neither with carus, *kāro- (“dear”), *kéh₂ros, from *keh₂- (“to desire, to wish”), as in precious stone?
On the matter of cat note Köter (big dog, derogatory), too, although, if I had to take a guess I would see an influence from Kot, one who shits a lot, and by extension a mean bad-ass. Given the root *gʷuē- (excrement, dung) refer back to #कान्हा (kānhā) above for a look at various *gʷ- roots with senses related to black, dark (like dung?), heavy (big dog) -- and please tell me the connection from pot, hash, cannabis to the vernacular shit (hash) is not new (in the other thread, but who cares). "Kot" links to ME qued, and at OE Old English *cwēad, *cwǣd (“evil, bad”), cwēad (“dung; dirt; filth”, noun) my spider-senses are tingling again (wēad>weed, to make a tentative suggestion; ok, there's Old English wēod (“weed”), but I am not impressed, *wedʰ- is not too convincing here, but of course I am just saying that out of spite; Vowel alternation is a thing at least; then take quetschen into consideration for a negative connotation opposed to wringen, "wenden", "drücken", etc. perhaps; Take Unkraut, if weed had a k- once, then those might be related). Anywho, when I am literally talking shit, it might be time to stop.
Back on topic, I thought the Coptic was the most likely origin of cat, but then, where did that come from? Perhaps he Catholic angle wasn't that wrong, from κατά, perhaps from Proto-Indo-European *ḱm̥-teh₂, from *ḱóm (beside, near, by, with), which is "perhaps from *ḱe" (particle here, this), I imagine companion, old pal mouse hunter would work.
By the way, in German fables the tom cat is "Hinze" or "Murr", what was it in Aesop and Fuchs Reinike? Rhyminreason (talk) 13:37, 3 July 2018 (UTC)


The etymology looks good to me. Thank you for your continued efforts.

Well, I've got two notes on the etymology, what do you think? For one, Fallbeil, came on my mind and I wonder whether guillotine like contraptions are simple enough to have been used earlier. For another, I'm reminded of spell.

With four different etymologies at spell, it's not as decisive as the first ety would make it seem: Mitteilung has connotations of splitting; To spell a word is to split it up into letters; The third ety has something like Zeitabschnitt (as in dry spell) and the third just outright relates to wood (splinters). But, I had that inspiration from Turkish balta mentioned at πέλεκυς. Nevertheless, the fourth "spell" ety links to speld, which mentions *(s)pel- (to split), so I'm not too far off. And indeed, fall mentions *(s)pol-. "einen Baum oder ein Urteil fällen" might be later conflations. Suffice to say I'm always happy when an etymology admits possible conflation, as for Beil at परशु (but not at Beil?). Anyhow, those two "fällen" in my native speaker mind are obviously not related thematically at all. "To bring down judgement" is a parallel, but Urteil seems to employ yet again a metaphor to splitting, parting, deciding.

Now, I'm loosing track, so I should stop here with more pseudo cognates. But that's hard, there are so many. part mentions *per- (to cut, bore), which itself doesn't have that gloss, but is the root to pro-, so it's highly productive (and too complex for me to begin with). I guess, in summary that suggests between *pel- and *per-, if we are looking at a dialect continuum, the Sanskrit could be a separate innovation ... or retaining older features. With Akkadian being semitic, proto-afro-asiatic becomes a concern, but that's long range.

Now I see that bite and *bilją (e.g. "Beil") have the same root, furthering the metaphors related to the mouth. I have to admit I find that more interesting than battle weapons. Still, battle-axe would be a clear distinction to a wood axe. While fight only sounds similar to *bʰeyd-, the root *pek- is rather similar to *per-.

Never the less, it occurred to me to look at the second part of πέλεκυς and parasu. ek, I speculate is related to Ecke, Hacke, Zacken, nick, etc. etc. -- a wedge of any kind. Further, in my mind, *sek- is a very old root for to cut and I see that in the 's' in the sanskrit. Compare that to 石器 (stone tool), (stone). The old Chinese is /*dAk/, so that's no 's', but on the other hand dagger mentions Armenien դակու (daku, “adze, axe”). There's also the hand-axe, which I'll throw in (no pun intended) just because *penkwos starts with a p-, too, and a k as in *pek-.

Yet another idea would be to look into stone industries, perhaps axes were made of large splinters, specks, splits, flakes. I'm thinking the decisive feature is that for an axe one needs a flake that is flat (from *flataz, *pletH; But "flach" is from *flakaz, which gives *plāg-, *plāk-, *pele- (“broad, wide, flat”)) as opposed to a pointy pick-axe.

What am I doing here? Well, I guess I am confused because I cannot tell how regular the supposed PIE root and the descendant developments are. So I am fantasizing a bit about things that were on my mind anyway, mostly about the dozens of cut roots in PIE. @sche. Rhyminreason (talk) 12:06, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

@-sche: I messed up the ping. Rhyminreason (talk) 06:15, 30 June 2018 (UTC)

PS: Not to be misleading, the Akk. evidence does not support the above derivations directly. I'm tempted to try, but I can't. The Akk. parasu (to cut, separate etc.), as per paleoglot should surely get a mention too. Just one more thing to the doubt at paleoglot. The differing accents in sanskr. and agr. might be a problem, but the spindle gloss not so much, because it's easy to imagine that either a primitive spindle tool could look like a double axe (and a sharp edge would help for splitting hairs, pun intended), or that an axe like weapon would look more like an axle, or even a Djed (horizontal oval with sharp edges around vertical handle), perhaps of bone, e.g. backbone (if the sanskr. parsu reading mentioned at paleoglot, is taken into account together with its bone reading). "Kriesgbeil" is symbolic, at least. For double -axe I found *pleḱ- whence duplex quite interesting. The synonym *pel- with its other synonms, with other meanings shows how conflated and convoluted these roots can be. The symbolism of twofold also fits to the only two PIE cognates and Akk. as the stem.

I shouldn't mention paradise, a separated, secluded garden, because it does not currently make the explanation any easier, but there it is. Note "Hecke" (hedge) means enclosure, too, and I've long been looking to find some source to corroborate that terms for country border are related to ridges in the ground (something between "kratzen" and "grenzen" for example, I don't even think that's debatable), not the least because canalization would be a natural boarder on acres. "Heide", heath and heathens are related, might be related, too.

Battle-axis is also a term to look at, I was never convinced that axis and axe, *h2eks- and *h2ek- were not related. Comparing Hacke and Haken, the meaning of Hakenkreuz becomes more symbolic (the swastika is on 3000 BC Samara ware, holy pot). And then there's the symbolic "axis of ...", e.g. "evil", where "war driver" would work, but "that which something evolves around" would fit a spindle, too.

I looked at more *p-, *(s)p and even *kw roots in PIE, which was fun, but of course doesn't help with Akkadian.

I'm so sorry, that wasn't just one more thing. There is even more, but I don't have the time to sum it up and reduce the fractions. You are likely not too interested anyway. I'm just a little paranoid, is all. Rhyminreason (talk) 15:03, 30 June 2018 (UTC)

PPS, as if he whole notion above wasn't confusing enough: Might I employ the same argument as brought up previously against me, that the hole thing is coincidence? I found the 50% chance as in the usenet post linked in the etymology scriptorium in May quite good, which people frequently like to post regarding "fringe". Because for a single guess between agr. "palaku" and sanskr. "parasu" fifty:fifty is an acceptable compromise for a chance of relation if we really don't know. The mismatch between the accents (omitted here) might be really problematic, I don't think so, but I have no clue. After all, everything is coincidence, that we exist is, and everything else, too. Rhyminreason (talk) 00:23, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

PPPS: Not to miss that para- as in parallel, paramilitary has definitely a notion of separation, as far as cut roots are concerned.

Also, the paladin and palace give a lot to choose from, so I end up at pax, placid, and looking at place, I would guess the Palation had a very wide, flat top. lol.

I'll stop now, Pfadfinderehrenwort (boy scout promise, literally path finder promise). I should start a blog though. Rhyminreason (talk) 12:13, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

take as a light verb[edit]

I'm not even going to link that discussion directly. Anyway: Compare "to take out the trash", and "I am going to take out", although I have no use-ex in mind for the latter, I think it exists in a number of ways, basically to go.

By the way, consider that to take etymologically has a sense of to grab, grasp, and by extension clench. The latter I guess might offer the explanation you are looking for.

The need to apologize for my speculations is still strong. Given the topic I am responding to I can see how Freud would have a field day, on the other hand I don't understand what about my contribution would be particularly outrageous.

I only remarked on clench', because recently OE qued, PIE *gʷuē- (“excrement, dung”) reminded me of Ger. quetschen (squeeze).

It's very telling that quetschen is of unclear origin and attested rather late. Fortunately we are mature enough. Here's some food for thought:

  • quatschen (to talk but often derogatory) and Quatsch (nonsense) link to the perhaps cognate quat (bad, evil), from the same PIE root *gʷuē-. Then, bullshit, to talk bullshit are perhaps obvious here, but quack, quacken, quackeln deserve a mention in the paradigm, too, being rather sound imitative.
  • de:quetschen mentions Lt. quatere, which has a sense overlap with the take etymon. The other senses, especially harass seem to fit the vulgar "are you shitting me?".
  • squat could be an s-mobile form; The page even has a picture of a squatter-toilet; The Etymology even concludes with "cōgō (“force together, compress”)". The house squatting sense even fits to the shake-down one above. We had that question this year in TR or ES ... and I opined it was related to "hog".
  • to quit, and [[quiēs] (“rest, repose; quiet”) remind me of restroom and shitter at the same time.

I think I made my point. I'll save you the rest. I am looking at *hekwos and that's just too much for today.

Rather, I should ponder that I'm still risking to be blamed for evading the ban, given that the talk-page access is probably meant strictly for appealing the ban. I concede that in the absence of viable fast rules, which wouldn't fit the open nature of wikimedia (e.g.), I have to practice self composure.

But I really don't have that. I'm looking at *ḱenk-, शङ्कते, see Cognate with Latin cunctor (“to delay, stall, hold up”), and still minding the topic in context think to myself, "stall, gnihihi". I lol'ed for actual at the thought of explaining "jemanden ankacken", "hör auf rumzukacken", etc.

I should be making arguments for why I should be unbanned, not why I shouldn't have been banned. Did "take out the trash" solve your translation problem? If not, "to take a long while" vs "a short while" might. @Eirikr Rhyminreason (talk) 04:22, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

die Wiesen[edit]

while I can't fix the whole shebang, I should at least note *h₂wes-, which links Proto-Germanic *wistiz, but that doesn't link back, instead links Proto-Germanic *wesaną (in both sections) which then proposes among others *h₂wes- but not certainly and only for one sense and *wes- for the other, glossed to graze, but that gloss is not given in the actual entry, rather clothes, cover.

The PIE somewhat reminds of house. Ironically that one's root *(s)kews-, from *(s)kew-, also glosses to cover. I could simply ignore that. But!: the broader picture I was looking at is even more confusing. So confusing in fact that I have to question the authority that is always brought up in questions of quality assurance.

Sound laws are not much help between Vesta, vestis and vestigo. Or between *wesaną and *wesaną. Therefore semantics are important. A choice of cognates from other languages is speculative, and leads to different roots. So I can't but join in with the speculation.

I went from silver, sarapum to Serapis, Apis, Apfel, Abfall, fall, spoil, spill, Spiel, Fest, vestibule, vestige, invest, investigate and Vesta. To explain the thoughts behind that would take a while. One interesting, innocent notion that I am unsure about is -- thanks to a terrible in-vesti-gator aligotor joke -- whether vest, Weste (the garment) is a sign of association and authority, similar to hats.

On that note, "to speak through one's hat" to denote lack of authority seems counterintuitive.

If the cognates to Wiese (meadow) give a sense of flow, maybe vest is from a sense of affluent, that fits invest, too, e.g. in a sense of influence. If that's so, then it appears in vestio sense 4 - to make emperor.

Why is Wiese important? Because it connects a few things, in my mind, that might help with *wesana: A meadow is where cows graze, it's where a village feast might be held ("Festwiesen", Oktoberfest), and it's generally a dwelling ground. *wesana gives the sense to dwell at ety 1 and consume, feast at ety 2. The root given for the second ety, *wes (to graze) is quite a semantic distance apart from consume, feast. Ironically Vesta got me there, when comparing that to Fest, festivity, so finding feast after two clicks is better than I expected. I was looking into Fest, because of Spiel (game, to play), which says from PGmc *spilą (“dance”). And I was looking at that just because it rhymes loosely on spill, which I looked at because of fall, from *(s)pōl-, and spoil. Let's conclude that at the start of fall (autumn), big feasts are traditional (anything from midsummer fest to thanksgiving). More over a festival could be held in a bigger vestibule, a courtyard. At any rate, Wiese gives a different root, *weis- (to flow), but why would *wes- not fit? *wistiz- with the nature connotation surely has a heathen aspect to it and there are surely many more cognates I'm currently not aware of.

The vest garment fits right into that, because people would dress fancy. The idiomatic "Weiße Weste" (clean record, literally white vest) fits the purity aspect of Vesta. "Weste" might even be used as metonym for clothing, I suppose, so maybe it's not strictly a sleeveless robe, but traditional Germanic folk dresses often do include vests, at any rate. The style of the vest might serve several functions, so by extension vests as occupational uniform are not far off, e.g. for carpenters. And maybe for investigators. That's it for the vest.

The root gloss cloth, cover related to vest seems rather basic (also derives wear, but that should be compared to ware, too, later). It's not clear how that would fit grazing or meadow -- I mean I'm looking for a reasonable metaphor like "Wolkendecke" for meadow. But I have something else: The Fließ (fleece) and fließen (to flow), *plews- and *plewd- respectively. At that point I refer to the previous treatment of *ple- et al, with a sense of plain among others, vis-a-vis meadow.

By the way, given the Wiese root gloss to flow, it's surprising that meadow does not link *meh₂d- (wet), and given that on that page we have m̥h₂d-tó-s deriving Indo_Iranian drunk words, it's all the more surprising that mead should not be related. Also: nass (wet) gives *ned- (to be wet); feucht gives *pen- (moist, wet; swamp). ... I just had a eureka moment, literally: What if the measure roots *meH are related to *meh₂d- (wet)? Perhaps cp. Wasser, Masse and Wassermasse and Maß (a pint of beer). Eureka! eu- is pretty interesting, too; "bon heureaux" is a pleonasm, really ... but augur is new to me. On the other hand, I was considering mitteilen, to decide etc. in comparison with Mund and measure, because of marking and cutting vs speaking and biting. And I had a lot more but lost a few sessions to browser crashes (T_T).

Imma go sleep now. Note to self: There's still Ballkleid, Ball vs Fall, play from *bal, play vs Spiel, Ballspiel to go into, and spell etc per above; Fest and fest are homophones at least; I didn't even get around to festivus; spill or spoil gives a sense to raid (before and after which the raiders hold a feast?); A stronghold can fall, often just a tower, not a fullblown castle, so tree metaphors might apply; I'll have to investigate ago again, I did so not long ago, though. And I'm really keen on the Wesen of verwesenen or never dagewesenen Weisheiten about Weiswasser; BTW, what is Wrasenbildung; What about Weide, weiden, weite Weiten, witzige videos of feucht-fröhlich Wetter? wet. wetzen. Wanzt. And I should find the word among the vest kinds that had stock in the definition, to make a serious joke about toga-stitching styles

Rhyminreason (talk) 01:40, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

Sklave, not Slave[edit]

@-sche: Can you say something on *(s)kleh₂w- and alternatives, Latin claudo, have you seen this considered before for Sklave? cue walls of arguments ... bla bla bla ... in Nadelöhr gehört Ohr zur Wortverbindung!?! Quite clever, eh?

Just commenting because of your thread in the ES -- accordingly I have to presume if you had seen it, you would have posted it, but ... The notion is rather obvious ... any obvious reason why it wouldn't have been considered, other than that it's derived as from the Slaves, not vice-versa, probably since Byzantine times? Rhyminreason (talk) 02:48, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

girl, grill, grrl[edit]

@User:Chuck_Entz I'm trying hard to take this as an opportunity to make a point. Is this something I shouldn't be able to post to the Tea Room? It is support for the argument to have an extra section in case of doubt, and to add a note on pronunciation.

Referring to Tea Room discussion. As -sche implied, how do we know the pun did originally refer to the cooking implement?

Consider grrl and the in my experience less frequent form grrrl with the etymology from girl+grrr in w:Riot grrrls. Then surely grill (to make angry; provoke; incite) fits very well. Yet, fieriness from a burning grill can be read into it, too. There's not much difference if the joke is more phonetic than spelling related. Indeed, w:Riot grrrl sources: "Riot grrrls took a growling double or triple r, placing it in the word girl, as a way to take back the derogatory use of the term." Rowe-Finkbeiner, Kristin (2004). The F-Word: Feminism In Jeopardy—Women, Politics and the Future. Seal Press. ISBN 1-58005-114-6.

In my own words: At first sight grrl might seem like a weird pun and actual eye dialect in the sense that the intended pronunciation is, by the unsuspecting reader, considered to be completely normal. But it might just as well reflect an over the top dialect with a heavily backed, rhotic 'r' that almost occludes the 'i'. Whether the grrrrowling aspect was an older jocular mannerism without specific connotation would have implications for grill but I don't know. In later usage after the coinage the pun lost most of the connotation -- it took me only 20 years (!) to get the joke. I'm happy we have it, but the pronunciation angle could be emphasized.

Whether that's the etymon of grill (girl) I don't know, though. I believe it's likely -- if I try saying the words myself -- and I believe who ever added it to grill ety. 1 doesn't know any better. Likewise, most speakers (on the internet) probably don't care about the sense either and just embrace the absurdity of a weak pun (which really grinds my gears, but it's ironically supposed to).

Maybe this is not important work. That depends on whether the pun is shallow or not.

I feel it's not the time to appeal the block directly. I would welcome a few hints in that direction.

As a side note: @User:PseudoSkull Whether the block is permanent or not is to be seen. Deleting a blocked user's user page is uncalled for and not best practice as far as I can gleam from Wikipedia. I mean, what's the purpose, scorched earth policy? grrrr --Rhyminreason (talk) 01:28, 13 July 2018 (UTC)


I am having a problem. I am starting another post because I think I am that good, although, in most cases I am likely either wrong or not novel. But that's not the problem. The problem is I need to go to sleep soon.

A mote is a small particle, a speck of sand or dust. that mud in your eye, mote, and sandman

  • Here's to mud in your eye! Maybe I should drink a strong vodka to become sleepy, but then I'd probably just write nonsense.
  • The sandman can probably help, said to bring good sleep, very popular in German TV (still?). Although, Steven King's sandman tells a different idea and hence I am not so sure about the sandman's benevolence. Obviously the mythical figure derives at least some of it's aspect from the remains of rheum after sleep. Wikipedia mentions a 1816 story on the sandman as threat to children who wouldn't sleep.
  • moth, Motte with strong cognates might be relevant. It would fit right in with biting bed bugs and monsters under the bed. Certainly they are associated with the night because they seek light in the dark and creep through open windows. They are certainly creepy. So maybe the sandman was once a sand-moth, especially when houses were perhaps not sealed airtight and it was advisable to shut the light (OK, I'm not sure that figures, I haven't stayed in rural housings). The phonetic difference would hint at an older tale.
  • matt#German is an interesting term, de.wt and DWDS have more. In one sense it means tired, and can be well compared to platt (flat). However, his word is problematic because: The check mate sense is "from Arabic" via French (via ..?), although chess might be Persian or Indian; The floor matt sense is unclear, perhaps semitic; The dull sense could be from the flatt floor matt sense, but does fit to the Old Irish máel ("bald, dull") mentioned at mad. So we may ignore this.
  • müde means tired, links to *mōþaz (tired); That in turn mentions *me-, *mo- as root and relates *mōdaz (will, ... whence also moody). I have the will to go to bed, soon, but not yet.
  • The Lt. mōs, also from *me-, is glossed for one as wont, which reminds me of my initial understanding that mote was just a small thing, as in a slightly misunderstood "for want of a ..." (in fact I thought it was wont of a). I have to admit, that is a stretch. But consider children learning a language, then strong rules of linguistics don't count much. Is that saying I'm being childish?! Surprisingly, want and wanton are not linked together here, and wont is "uncertain" all together.

The conclusion: mud and sand -- in my opinion -- might be folk etymological additions to mote, although that folk etymology might be rooted deeper than I am able to tell. With the mud root going to a sense of wetness, even mead and mad might in fact be related and mad even more so if tiredness and old age are considered together. Actually, the mad root *mey- has many senses in different sections, one being small, little.


  • The Maikäfer (cockchafer, literally May-Bug) is not so little. Fittingly May is derived from the mega root, a megabug. Although, as *mey- also meas change that would be quite fitting for the month, wouldn't it?
  • Wouldn't maikäfer as the bug of all bugs make sense, taking the root from Motte meaning bug, whence also maggot and Ger. Made? Then perhaps the g in maggot is ... somewhat from mega? That would be a difficult development.
  • On a more important note: *mey- and *meg- are now the third pair of roots for which I would derive a development from hard to soft sound as diminutive or vice-versa. Another pair is *lewk-, *lewg- (another with *k-, I forgot). That's where I thought surely that's known and I should just read more outside of wiktionary.

I hope you give a mote enough to read all that.

PS: I started from Talk:mote#Etymology. I will refrain from going down on check mate and *maidijaną (“to cripple, injure”).

PPS: talking about bugs and mote note that mite is from *mey- indeed.

PPPS: note Miete is missing the sense of storage clamp for Potatoes; meiden (avoid) is from *mey-, vis-a-vis Old German gemieten (mad) mentioned at talk:mote; mayhem is from *maidijaną. Maidan is cognate with medium, middle. meddle is ... I could go on and on. Maybe even relevant: Mittelchen, Schlafmittel.

PPPPS: Didn't I want to go to sleep like 2 hours ago? Rhyminreason (talk) 23:48, 15 July 2018 (UTC)


No, old high german krappeln is not a strong counter argument against a derivatiin from crab, Krabbe. At least at crawl no such concern is raised. I came there from agr. karabos, scarab, because of idiomatic Krabbelkäfer, crawly bug. The picture of the deep black scarab reminded me of the whole khana, kala, krsn,' black argument I still labour with, cp. carcinom, cancer.

Anyway, I know people who would occasionally talk like that, "Krappeln" " statt krabbeln. Good to know that' s from an old dialect (only half jokin; but "khreifen" for greifen really irks me).

Perhaps Knabe and Knappe are related?

Also it stands to reason that language aimed at toddlers might be overly pronounced, say in "brappeln", brabbeln. Rhyminreason (talk) 15:46, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

Words or etys to check[edit]

Leichnam, Gusche, Mundraub, Pharaonin, Klüsen, polken, Pöken, schneeweiß (so similar to the snow root *snewht), gebären, [[schmusen], Schnuckel, Schnuckelchen, schnuckelig (snuggel?), kuschen, kaschen, Kescher, Stift, Kirchenstift, Altenstift, Stabreim, Stube, stöbern, entfachen, Fegefeuer, raufen, rauben., Zupfen, zuppeln, zappeln, schnippeln, schnacken, Schnake, Schnecke, schnakseln, kitzeln, kritzeln, kraxeln, Krätze, Grütze, Grieß, Grießgram, Grauß, Graus, Gar_ausmachen, Gorleben, Kachel, kokeln, krakeln, krakelen, keilen, keulen, kielholen, Kiel, Kohl, Kohle, Sesam, Samen, Salbei, aaöglatt, (cp, aramaic, snow), Quartier, Quadratur, Quader, Quadrant, Hydrant, Hyperbel, Kiez, Bezirk, Burgfried, Furche, Kranz, Kringel, Klüngel, Klingel, Klump, Klumpen, Kumpel, Koje, kampeln, kämpeln, kuppeln, Koppel, Weide, Wiese, rasen, Raserei, blinde_wut, rot_sehen, roden, rohden, Reude, ranzig, Ranzen, Rand, rund, Rinne, Tarine, Trog, trough, pecken, (kleben), klappern, kloppen, Klippe, Klappe, schleifen, Schleife, Schluft, Schloss, Frage, Fracht, Gebot, Gebiet, Mund-, Mantel, Teppich, Matte, matt, ermatten, Mett, schmaddern, Schmodder, Schmiere_stehen, schmatzen, Fahrgeschäft, Kuss, Gras, Halm, Holm, Helm, Himmel, Hammel, Hummel, Gebimmel, bammeln, bummeln, Bämme, Stulle, Stall, Stille, Stil, Stelle, Stelldichein, Reigen, Ringelreihen, Stille_Post, stippen, stupsen, stieben, staufen., stauchen., tauchem, tuch, Tasche, fegten, (Danish), faga, feuern, anfeuern, Asche, aschfahl, einäschern, Ruder, Rüdiger, Ruth, Rat, Rede, Röte, Rute, Raute, fuchteln, schwuchteln, Schachtel, Schrulle, schrill, grell, Groll, Grill, Gral, Kuhle, Kehle, Schlund, schländern, lindern, Stich (Skat), Stich (Farbe, Fehler), Fackel, fackeln, pirschen, schleichen, heran, ran, rein, Reinheit, Rhein, Röhn, Rinnsal, Napf, näpfchen, nippen, knapp, Knüppern, Knüpfen, Knopf, Schlüsselbrett, Schlachtfest, schlimm, Schlamm, Schlumpf, Schlüpper, schlabbern, schlackern, Schlick, Schlacke, Schluck, wie ein Schluck Wasser in der Kurve, Schläue, Schärpe, Schürze, Schurz, Schutz, Schatz, Horde, Orden, stapfen, stampfen, staken, stäuben, betäuben, Tube, Stiege, Steg, Stehgreif, Stau, stumm, Stimme, stammeln, Stummel, Stiel, Suhl, suhlen, Seele, Saal, Saale, Sultanat, Sylogismus, Silo, Sohle, Sole, besolen, Sold, Soll, Polsterer, Pose (Angeln), Stippe, Reuse, Ruß, Schilfrohr, Reisig, roh, Morgenröte, Abendröte, Flöte, Flaute, Fläppen, Drahtesel, Fluppe, Flunder, Form, Vorspeise, verspeisen, Insel, Einsatz, schätzen, Ritzel, Rost, rösten, schubsen, Joghurt, Rucksack, Rücken, Nacken, nicken, knacken, knicken, Packen, picken, Zacken, zicken, backen, blicken, bickering, Dicker, ja, Alter, Verwalter, Schälte, unbescholten, beschuldigen, Streit, strittig, straucheln, Strauch, strotzen, trotzen, protzen, prusten, husten, rotkäppchen, Jade, Jarubim, Rubin, Ravioli, Remonstration, widerum, wiederum, jedweder, Repetitorium, Regularien (pluraletantum), irre, Galiere, Gallblase, Safran, Kuchen, gehl, geil, Gülle, quake, quaken, quieken, quäken, mauk, Käsemauken, Klamauk, Satire, Saturn, saturieren, Sattelit, Satelitenschǘssel, Salatschüssel, sal, ziehen, Drahtzieher, Dreher, Feinwerk, Trieb, Gebäude, Finesse, finster, neigen, nörgeln, torkeln, Ferkel, Bügel, bügeln, Steigbügel, Sattel, Knauf, knipsen, knuspern, knispeln, kraus, braus, fraus, raus, gestern, Gunst, gin, gun, gum, Gummi, Gammel, Kamm, kempt, ungewaschene Massen, flicken, flackern, flunkern, leugnen, Leumund (loimund?), lauwarm, lahm, Löwin, Beamteninnen, Mulle, Malle, Meile, Möller, Müller, Meyer, Mille, Schmu, schmulen, schu!, Schuh, Sumer, Sommersprossen, sprießen, reißen, reisen, ausreißen, ausweisen, einweisen, beweisen, Weisheit, geradeaus, gradus, qof, Kauf, kofen, klaufen, schlaufe, schlafen, wecken, [[einwecken], verstecken, einen wegstecken, kuscheln, Petting, Loch, locken, Locken, Verlockung, Versuchung, Anfechtung, werben, erinnern, Flocken, pflücken, Abfall, Flicken, flux, Flachs, Lachs, Lauch, Hemd, trap, Therapie (agr. terapsi), Pathos, Pathologe, Loge, Lounge, Sofa, Freud'scher Versprecher, Gewicht, gewichten, achten, Achten, Achtung, Brunnen, Brenner, braun, raunen, riechen, richtiger Riecher, rex, Erker, Kolben, Recke, rouge, rogue, Brosche, brass, Brauchtum, Bruch, Andacht, Andenken, Dünkel, Lenker, link, lewd, Lenk, Lunge, linger, Lauge, dröge, Trubadur, Tremolo, Tremor, Tor (ich armer)), Armut, harm, Ärmel, Kanal, kennel, Penne, Fänge, Finger, funkeln, Finkelstein, fingieren, fin. tin, Zinn, zehn, Zehen, zäh, jeh, Zinober, zayin, zeigen, gediegen, biegen, schmiegen, Geschmeide, kriegen, Riege, riegeln, Schlosser, verschleiß, verschlissen, beschissen, Beschiss, Schiss, Schuss, chassen, scheuen, schaudern, Schädel, Schale, Schule, opfern, Ofen, offen, öffnen, schöpfen, abschöpfen, Schöffen, Schöffel, Löffel, Luft, Licht, leicht, Flucht, Pflicht, Fleiß, Sucht, sicht, seicht, Geruch, Gericht, gereicht, genug.

ca. 100 red at the moment. That would take me a while. ca. 500 total. That'd be a days work just to read the entries carefully. I lost two elaborate expositions to a browser crash the other day, again, and I'm sick of having held them back, so now I'll try something different. It's quite a poem. I hope I will get around to finding more critically missing words to add and get around to add them eventually although most of them are on de.wt, dwds etc anyway. The obscure dialectical ones they don't even have are the most interesting. Oh, one more:

Hahn im Korb -- is Korb cognate to chicken coop? Ochse vor Tor -- Tor is a terminus technicus for a stear milking station, cf. gymnastics' Pferd, Bock. Prellbock -- where the buck stops something? Ship's Bug -- back, Rückgrat (keinen Bock haben -- spineless oder keinen Macker haben; bockig sein)? Rhyminreason (talk) 00:42, 24 July 2018 (UTC)

tie, draw, undecided[edit]

@DCDuring: What's your rational behind mentioning "entscheiden", is it to cut off, finish? With the Schiedsrichter (umpire), the connection is stronger than I first thought, and if there's a connection to sheeth, a sense of wrap up might be closer to tie than to cut. At least, now I know why they call the umpire a cunt, lol, I'm joking. But decide compared to incision has the same polysemy. If pat is connected to pax, then to enter a bond as you first alluded to would be significant, esp. Ger. Bund. Theres something about abwägen, Waage, too, I'm not sure what though. Rhyminreason (talk) 05:37, 31 July 2018 (UTC)

My rationale is just that it is suggestive of a metaphorical connection. If two competitors are tied (as we say it in the US), then the resolution is to break the link between them, by cutting it. DCDuring (talk) 10:55, 31 July 2018 (UTC)
Indeed, that may be most obvious. But in that sense I would compare tight as well, as a tight, close game.
In the sense suspended I would further compare retirer, and eventide, cp. Ger. Gleichstand (equal standing, also simply "Stand", "Stand beide").
There's the Ger. idiom den Sack zu machen (to seal the deal, effectively finish a game), there's that's a wrap, wrap up.
I very tentatively suggest to approach *deh₁- and *deh₂- through this topic. Keep the war like nature of games in mind just as much as the spirituality, though.
I see *deh₂p- (to sacrifice, loose) and become a little depri, *herp derp*, but think of derby, Derby and its Chester Green, compare chester to "riješiti (“to solve, to decide”), neriješeno (“tie, draw”), odriješiti (“to loosen, to untie”)" and rejoice a little thinking friendlies would try to end in a tidy tie without tie breaker, hail the sacrifice to the deer god roasting over the fire (pun intended) and reschedule the parties to continue the match a year later.
Other synonym to tied might be on par, by the way, and deuce, from which I consider duel (like duel of goalies in a penalty shoot out, e.g. or horses drawing as in drawn and quartered), and Stechen (stake out). From that I'm reminded of στέγος (roof), comparable to "Stand". A roof is reminicent of a triangle and by extension the Greek capital-letter Delta, reinforcing my suspicion that *deH- and *(s)teg- were related via some *del- (del-i-mit?), as dalet denotes an entry, cf. Diele and threshold, (highly polysemic though, another symbolism might be fish-tail); Ultimitely consider Akk. and Sum. ti and til (live and arrow (tip), more?).I still find Diele, delta, del, til, stel-, stand, roof interesting to compare, but that sentence was just wrong. Sorry! Rhyminreason (talk) 22:54, 31 July 2018 (UTC)