User talk:Arafsymudwr

Welcome!

Hi! You're clearly not new and know what you're doing, so I'll just say hi! Good work with the Welsh entries so far! – Guitarmankev1 ^(talk) 20:03, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

Thanks! New to Wiktionary but not to Wikis. Looking forward to seeing you around :) Arafsymudwr (talk) 19:03, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

May I also respectfully draw your attention to Wiktionary:Requested entries (Welsh)? We don't have many Welsh speakers around, but the requests page is quite tiny too. You could clear in a weekend mate :) Equinox ◑ 00:15, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Sure, I'll look at it now! Arafsymudwr (talk) 12:07, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Cadw draenog yn ei boced

Hello - I would firstly like to thank you for your great work in creating these Welsh pages!

This idiom, however, is correctly 'cadw draenog yn ei boced'. The one under the entry 'cadw draenog yn boced un' is incorrect gramatically in its lack of aspirate mutation after 'yn' (in the sense of 'in') and also its use of 'un' in a manner equivalent to the English. I think the current wording is a literal (mis)translation, or a misremembered version of the correct idiom.

Cofio n 2A00:23C7:7C9B:AB01:8CB8:97E1:9C41:CFC3 15:35, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Thanks! I was sure that “un” does have uses like English “one” but just checked and yeah not in a genitive sense whoops.

About the mutation, do you mean lack of nasal mutation? Because that's what I would expect. Arafsymudwr (talk) 16:55, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Nasal mutation is most likely what they meant: ‘ym mhoced’ would certainly be correct in this instance. 2A00:23C7:7C9B:AB01:1C71:4047:8AC4:8F0B 07:58, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Welsh rhymes

Why do you only put the rhymes from the northern pronunciation? Stríðsdrengur (talk) 18:38, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Because it is an established practice on Wiktionary. See e.g. grudd and rhudd which I have never edited and also show the northern rhyme only. The links for the rhyme lists include the necessary information about Southern rhymes. Arafsymudwr (talk) 18:54, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Taro

Shwmae gyfaill,

I notice that the initial and already-existing article for 'taro' had the incorrect verbal root: it is 'traw' (and irregular). See: https://www.geiriadur.ac.uk/gpc/gpc.html?trawaf

I have therefore changed the stem in the articles you have recently made, and hope that I have not stepped on your toes!

Also, the idiom is 'taro bargen' rather rhan 'taro'r fargen' (see Geiriadur Prifysgol Cymru).

Thanks for all the good work you've done recently: you've increased the number of Welsh entries monumentally, and many, many people are grateful for your efforts! 2A00:23C7:7C9B:AB01:9014:85B3:58F6:1893 14:48, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

It's ok - I copied that from taro and later noticed that had the same error! Thanks for picking it up :) Arafsymudwr (talk) 14:50, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

aspirate mutation of yr?

My very limited knowledge of Welsh makes me very confused about mutation (like every other learner, I imagine), but can there really be aspirate mutation of the article in any grammatical circumstance? You've included mutation tables for yr undydd and yr unnos. --Hiztegilari (talk) 17:39, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

You're correct, there cannot be. Arafsymudwr (talk) 17:41, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Equative

Hello there, I was wondering if you could help with something, as you seem to be well-versed in the templates used here.

For Welsh adjectives, most of the equatives are incorrect: they are automatically rendered as [cyn-] + [adjective, with correct soft mutation], whereas there should be and [-ed] after the adjective, thus giving:

[cyn-] [adjective, with soft mutation] [**-ed]**. Without the necessary -ed ending, it is incorrect, and worse, implies 'former' (cf. cyn-fyfyriwr - alumnus/former student).

That is to say, for 'bras', the equative, thus formed, is 'cyn frased', not 'cyn fras', which means nothing.

Somebody would therefore have to adjust the template, and I feel that you might know how to do that!

• I should add also that the 'cyn' is not strictly required when using the equative degree, but is usually included.

Warm regards 2A00:23C7:7C9B:AB01:DB6:CE07:AD45:7BF3 14:36, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Most of these templates are locked so only accounts with a certain level of clearance (that I don't have) can edit them. I think you should either talk to Mahagaja (Wiktionary administrator who recently edited that template) or post your question in the grease pit (forum dedicated to discussing templates).

Sorry I can't be more helpful :) Arafsymudwr (talk) 15:07, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

psygodle & na'i gilydd

Hey. First, just to say "Diolch yn fawr" for all the work you've done on the Welsh entries.

Second, I noticed a typo in the entry psygodle. I'm guessing it's best to redirect and get it deleted, as its not a common spelling mistake.

Also, I wondered whether na'i gilydd really needs its own entry. It's just na (“than”) + ei gilydd (“each other”). Or is there some idiom I'm not remembering that uses it?

Thanks again! Llusiduonbach (talk) 21:23, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

Duw duw! Yes, it's redirected now.

About na'i gilydd, I feel there is more point to having it than creating a page for every mutated form of a word like I see getting created all over the place, but I wouldn't object to you binning it. Arafsymudwr (talk) 21:37, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. I agree with you the mutated forms are not priority, especially as they're findable in search results. It's a shame the same can't be said for mutated non-lemma forms and that there's not a bot that can automatically create these entries as for other languages. Llusiduonbach (talk) 13:40, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Links to Middle Welsh terms with the dot

Hi - following on from what you said at WT:RFDN, it sounds like the combining dot should be ignored in link targets for Middle Welsh, in a similar way that macrons and breves are for Latin (e.g. the input {{m|wlm|teẏrn}} should output teẏrn). Are there any other orthographical differences that need to be accounted for? What about Old Welsh? Theknightwho (talk) 14:14, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

@Theknightwho hi, I don't have much to do with either Middle or Old Welsh actually - mostly confined to recategorising terms mistakenly entered as Modern Welsh. But afaik Middle Welsh (as normed by modern scholars) also uses the ð symbol, which should be redirected to d. Although it seems that this is already accounted for.

Btw, on an unrelated topic, could we see about having a "literary form of" template made? Welsh could use such a template a lot, and atm manually adding "literary" to the "form of" template doesn't automatically sort an entry into the literary terms category. See: rhedyn y dwfr and dwfr where two different workarounds have been attempted. Arafsymudwr (talk) 16:14, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

@Arafsymudwr Thanks - these seem like odd decisions to me, especially the hard redirects, because they're somewhat different from ignoring diacritics. @Mahagaja Could you please elaborate? Also pinging @Benwing2, who may have views on this. Theknightwho (talk) 16:18, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

ð → d doesn't involve a hard redirect; rather, using ð in a Middle Welsh link automatically links to the term with d. Thus, typing {{m|wlm|dyð}} links to [[dyd#Middle Welsh]] automatically; it's a kind of diacritic stripping. As for dotted y, I don't think we should be using it at all. I've only seen it in Morris Jones's book as way of indicating when Middle Welsh y corresponds to Modern Welsh i, but I've never seen it used in editions of Middle Welsh texts or in other pedagogical works such as Evans's grammar – both of which do use ð. —Mahāgaja · talk 16:24, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

@Mahagaja Thanks. I should've been clearer: that page says that ⟨ỻ⟩ and ⟨ỽ⟩ are handled via hard redirects, which is what seemed wrong to me. Theknightwho (talk) 16:26, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

@Theknightwho: yes; I wrote that in WT:AWLM because AFAIK those letters aren't used in any language other than Middle Welsh, so a hard redirect would do no harm. Having a separate page for ỻyuyr that just says it's an alt form of llyuyr seems like a waste of the reader's time; taking them straight to llyuyr is more efficient. And since ỻyuyr won't be a word in any other language, the hard redirect won't be taking someone to the wrong entry. —Mahāgaja · talk 16:36, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

@Mahagaja Can ⟨ll⟩ occur outside of the digraph? Because if so then it's probably not a good idea. Theknightwho (talk) 16:46, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

Not an expert, but I believe that callon is an example of just that. In Modern Welsh, calon is pronounced with a short /a/ even in dialects that normally have a long vowel in stressed open syllables. Arafsymudwr (talk) 16:49, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

Having hard redirects from ỻ spellings to ll spellings implies only that ỻ always corresponds to ll, not that ll always corresponds to ỻ. —Mahāgaja · talk 17:02, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

I'm not keen on hard redirects because it implies they're exactly equivalent when they aren't. Theknightwho (talk) 18:04, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

We could also simply say that entries shall not use ⟨ỻ⟩ and ⟨ỽ⟩, just as we already don't use wynn for Old English or long s for any language (I think). —Mahāgaja · talk 16:45, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

@Arafsymudwr In terms of a literary form of template, that's definitely possible. Please see the new {{literary form of}}. Theknightwho (talk) 16:25, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, much appreciated! Arafsymudwr (talk) 16:33, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

@Mahagaja I tend to dislike hard redirects in the mainspace although I understand some people use them as an easier way of creating an entry than a soft-redirect entry. I think however your suggestion that ⟨ỻ⟩ and ⟨ỽ⟩ should simply not be used is a good one; it's unlikely someone will want to go out of their way to type them and unless they frequently show up in modern editions found on the Internet (where someone might reasonably cut and paste a term with those characters in them), there's no reason to create redirects. Benwing2 (talk) 23:10, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

I've updated WT:AWLM to state that ⟨ỻ⟩ and ⟨ỽ⟩ are not used. I don't think we have any hard redirects using them at this point. —Mahāgaja · talk 07:36, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

IPA for malltod

Hi. Just checking why you reverted malltod. Phonolgically it's /ˈmaɬdɔd/ but phonetically [ˈmaɬtɔd]. Thanks. Llusiduonbach (talk) 10:58, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

Phonetically the fortis/lenis distinction in Welsh is primarily aspirate vs unaspirated. The lenis stops are unvoiced word-finally in isolation, and voiced when a sonorant follows Arafsymudwr (talk) 12:00, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

Have you got any references for that? I'm thinking here the devoicing begins during the consonant rather than the vowel, e.g. /taːd/ is more [tʰaːd͡d̥] rather than [tʰa͡ḁt], but I'd love to see a study about that in particular (and learn more) if I'm wrong. I'm guessing a number of a number of phonetic transcriptions may have to be changed if I am. Thanks. Llusiduonbach (talk) 13:14, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

@Llusiduonbach sure, check out Grawunder and Asmus and Asmus, Jaworski and Baran. John Well’s paper on the relationship between Welsh phonology and orthography takes it for granted too (not open access, but I have a copy if you’d like it). The Journal of the International Phonetic Association’s description of Northern Welsh phonology seems to go even further and treat voice in plosives as not even phonemic.

I can’t find a description specifically for Southern Welsh, but the Asmus Jaworski and Baran paper is cross-dialectal, and I’ve been told in person that Northern Welsh tends to lean more on an aspiration distinction while Southern Welsh devoices final stops but is otherwise much like English. Certainly my flawed perception as a native English speaker mostly exposed to Southern Welsh hasn’t noticed anything particularly different from English in the stops. Arafsymudwr (talk) 14:27, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

{{t}} vs. {{t+}}

Hi, just FYI — we use {{t+}} when the page exists on the foreign-language Wiktionary, and {{t}} when it doesn't. If you use the 'Add translation' interface, it will magically handle that for you. (But don't worry, it's not a big deal if you use the wrong one; I run a bot every so often that switches between the two templates as necessary. The only reason I'm even mentioning it is that I noticed that you mistakenly changed a {{t}} to a {{t+}}, which made me suspect that you'd misunderstood the difference, and might want to know about it.) —Ruakh_TALK 06:42, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Hi @Ruakh thanks, I actually was aware of this and the bot - I just default to adding t+ because I never really saw the harm in it. I don't generally bother with translations already added by others unless I'm changing another parameter like gender. Arafsymudwr (talk) 10:42, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

OK, fair enough! —Ruakh_TALK 16:48, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Amrhydlwyd (amhrydlwyd)

By the way, the entry for ‘amrhydlwyd’ in y Bywiadur and the associated publications is incorrect. It is ‘amhrydlwyd’, as in GPC. This one has been lingering for a while the Cymdeithas’ otherwise brilliant work; but then again, given that it is an uncommon noun, the misspelled variant is ptobably by far the most cited, given the prominence given to it by y Bywiadur. 2A00:23C7:7C81:9001:6826:35D:CA5B:DC3 22:19, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

The GPC lists both amhrydlwyd and amrhydllwyd though, and ammrhydllwyd was the spelling used in Hugh Davies' Welsh Botanology, cited in the GPC. The intention has has always been to list variant spellings as alternatives when an entry for the word is eventually made, with prominence given to the form that is more common, regardless of my feelings about which spelling is best on etymological grounds. Arafsymudwr (talk) 22:36, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

I can’t see that GPC has a record for the spelling ‘amrhydlwyd’? 2A00:23C7:7C81:9001:5034:5825:4034:B031 13:24, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

I don't see why it needs to. The GPC is not the ultimate arbiter of whether something exists or not in Welsh. Arafsymudwr (talk) 17:24, 27 March 2024 (UTC)