Wiktionary:Information desk/2021/March

discussion rooms: Tea room • Etym. scr. • Info desk • Beer parlour • Grease pit ← February 2021 · March 2021 · April 2021 → · (current)

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I would like to edit the term “loser” to reflect global events.

One who consistently and naturally-and usually in groups- monitors, harasses, denigrates, demeans, isolates, and obfuscates: loser; regardless of wealth, position, authority, power, affiliation, or attribution.

This is the true definition that everyone on earth knows in their heart. — This unsigned comment was added by Cdesmazes (talk • contribs) at 17:23, 1 March 2021 (UTC).

It's the true definition that you have just made up in your head. Well done. Equinox ◑ 17:28, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, this just falls under 'A contemptible or unfashionable person.' where the word 'contemptible' refers to whatever Cdesmazes or anyone thinks is bad. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 19:22, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

Do we have to paraphrase?

Hey there. Long time Wikipedian, new Wiktionary editor. I am thinking about adding this definition to Manchurian candidate: "a person, especially a politician, being used as a puppet by an enemy power". However it is a direct quotation from another dictionary. Is that allowed here, or do we have to paraphrase? Please ping me in replies. Thanks. Novem Linguae (talk) 18:53, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

@Novem Linguae: In general you can't just copy stuff from copyrighted sources, for the hopefully obvious reasons. See Wiktionary:Copyrights. Equinox ◑ 19:25, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

And more importantly for this entry in particular, it seems your definition would just be a subset of the definition we already have, rather than a sense meriting a truly separate definition line. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 19:27, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

Sounds good. Glad I checked. Thanks for the feedback. Novem Linguae (talk) 19:28, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

Side note, Wiktionary:Copyrights needs updating. It says "Quoting a sentence from a contemporary author to illustrate the use of a word is an important example of fair use" and "If you use part of a copyrighted work under "fair use", [...] you must note that fact (along with names and dates) on the history page or talk page of the article." I don't think anyone who adds a quotation from a book puts "...and I'm doing this as fair use!" in their edit summary. Conversely, if someone (for example) quotes another dictionary in writing a usage note here, it is not enough to say which dictionary they're quoting in their edit summary, they have to actually cite the dictionary in the entry, at least via ref tag. - -sche (discuss) 02:46, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

Non-compounding hyphen

Is there a way to suppress the default categorization of entries with a hyphen as "multiword terms"? There are at least two cases where this creates wrong categorizations:

1. In some languages (especially in the Philippines), the hyphen is an orthographic device to indicate a medial glottal stop, especially after a consonant, e.g. Cebuano bug-at, Batangas Tagalog ngay-on or Ilokano nasam-it. (Arguably, English uh-oh also might fall into this group.)
2. Some languages (especially in Indonesia and Malaysia) use hyphens in words with an apparent reduplicated structure, even if the root does not exist, e.g. Malay ubur-ubur, biri-biri.

–Austronesier (talk) 11:46, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

A related issue was discussed recently at Wiktionary:Grease_pit/2021/January#Wrong_entries_in_Category:German_multiword_terms. According to that discussion, one "can add a language to data.hyphen_not_multiword_sep in Module:headword/data to disable adding a term to 'multiword terms' if it has a hyphen in it". If you specify which languages (beyond the ones you give above) should not have the hyphen treated as indicating a multi-word term, I or another administrator or template editor can add them. - -sche (discuss) 22:26, 7 March 2021 (UTC)

@-sche: Ah, I haven't seen that discussion, thank you! For the second group of languages above, the flag |nomultiwordcat= is sufficient, since the automatic inclusion mostly yields correct results, and the few exceptions can be handled manually. For the first group however, the hyphen almost always cuts right through roots. So here's a list of languages to be added to data.hyphen_not_multiword_sep in Module:headword/data:

• Cebuano [ceb]
• Hiligaynon [hil]
• Waray-Waray [war]
• Aklanon [akl]
• Masbatenyo [msb]
• Ilocano [ilo]
• Tagalog [tl]

As an explanatory comment you can write something "hyphen used to indicate word-internal medial glottal stop" or just "too many false positives" as in the case of German. Btw: is it "-sche" as e.g. in Schawellsche? :) More info at w:User:Austronesier#IPA –Austronesier (talk) 07:23, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

I rarely consult Wiktionary any more, because word meanings seem to be of secondary importance in the entries!

It seems to me that when ordinary people consult a dictionary, they are often MOST interested in the meaning of a word--not in its etymology, forms, or relationships with similar words in other languages. But Wiktionary seems to be a work by lexicographers written for other lexicographers, and the meanings of words are a secondary consideration. I cannot hope to see that changed, of course, but if you want to meet the needs of ordinary folk, I would suggest placing more up-front emphasis on the MEANINGS of words, and less on the esoteric impedimentia that seem to be most important at this time. — This unsigned comment was added by 64.33.155.96 (talk) at 12:23, 5 March 2021 (UTC).

All the etymology, forms and relationships are very valuable to readers, and they are all part of the ideal dictionary. Definitions that need work should be worked on too. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 12:38, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

A valid concern is that etymologies come first in Wiktionary (in the page layout), and yes there are entries with a low definition-to-etymology ratio. – Jberkel 13:56, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

I agree that putting etymology and pronunciation before the meaning is a bad layout. At least we could compress them down more, instead of giving them entire paragraphs to themselves. Equinox ◑ 14:42, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

Wiktionary is built by amateur enthusiasts. They have a variety of interests. Personally I just add definitions (and sometimes simple etymologies based on prefixes &c). Other online dictionaries are available, but they do not have our breadth of coverage. SemperBlotto (talk) 14:59, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

I wouldn't have expected a heckling comment from an ip to invite so much agreement, but I too think this is a good point. For a typical reader, the etymology is one of the least salient pieces of information we provide. I'm guessing we made the decision to put the etymology first simply because that's how paper dictionaries have usually done it. But I would definitely support moving it way down, perhaps just above or below Translations. Though there's some trickiness with homographs, since we currently use etymologies as the root node of their subsections (e.g. vent and its 5 etymologies). Colin M (talk) 04:54, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

I think homographs are actually the main reason we put etymologies first, as plenty of paper dictionaries do in fact put etymologies last. One possible solution (though it may be confusing) would be to have ====Etymology==== be subsection of ===Etymology 1/2/3=== in such cases, e.g.:

Etymology 1

Noun

vent (plural vents

1. An opening through which gases, especially air, can pass.o
2. ...

Etymology

Partly from Old French vent, from Latin ventus and partly from French éventer....

Etymology 2

Noun

1. Ventriloquism.

Etymology

Clipping of ventriloquism.

And so on. Maybe it would be less confusing if we had some other term besides "Etymology" before the numbers, like "Form 1" or "Term 1". I'd stay away from "Noun 1" etc. since sometimes a single etymology can have more than one entry with the same part of speech. —Mahāgaja · talk 08:26, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

Yes, I like the idea of using a different term for these headings. (While we're at it, I also wonder about adding one or two keywords to identify each group rather than just numbering them. As it is now, to find the group of senses you're looking for you just need to scroll through everything. But it would be nice if you could jump to the right section straight from the table of contents. I suppose most multiple-etymology cases are like vent where there's one 'main' group followed by one or more marginal ones. But there are some cases like bow where it would be helpful (e.g. "Form 1: curve", "Form 2: gesture", "Form 3: ships")). Colin M (talk) 09:26, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

Being relatively new to Wiktionary, I find "Etymology" as primary key for distinguishing homonyms/homographs sometimes confusing. Especially for languages other than English with less well-studied etymologies, this creates a lot of empty or request template-filled subsections. OTOH, it sets a high and well-defined threshold to create separate sections for diferrent fields of meanings. Without the "Etymology"-key, editors might be more prone to create sections for different ranges of meaning (especially figurative meanings) where now we have numbered lists. But I agree (even though I am a historical linguist) that etymological bloat at the very top is not very helpful for most readers. So we might change the label as suggested above, but retaining etymology as primary principle for separating sections. The actual "Etymology" subsection then could appear at the bottom. –Austronesier (talk) 14:33, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

I agree we need to move definitions up. (Years ago, I didn't, but many entries have long etymologies that push definitions out of sight, and collapsing the etymology just means even veteran editors don't notice it, as happened a while ago on cat.) I think our entries have too much empty space, especially in Mobile view, as big headers like "Noun" take up a whole line, then headword lines beneath them; it'd look better to put the part of speech on the headword line, but it'd make editing the entry or navigating the TOC much more difficult so it's probably out of the question. One idea is that like "Alternative forms" can be either above or below definitions, etymology could also be allowed in either place, so entries with only one etymology could give it below the definitions, whereas entries where that would cause issues (e.g. entries with five etymologies and eight parts of speech) could keep the existing layout. - -sche (discuss) 00:34, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

An alternative might be to split the content of the etymology sections into a one-liner, plus (if applicable) an extended version for ety aficionados, collapsed in the default view but expanded by clicking  [more ▼].  --Lambiam 12:17, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

From Wiktionary:Beer_parlour/2021/March#Etymology_bashing Jberkel(?) brought up an important point that the Etymology header is hard to change. That there is a counter for this heading. (The discussion is about changing the etymology header if it is inappropriate for some entries)

Then, from above, we noted that some of the other parts of an entry assume that the etymology header is at the top of an entry.

The common theme is changing any part of the strict and rigid MOS for Wiktionary is going to mess up quite a lot of WT programming (scripts). So some of the suggestions above will need extra back end work, if it is ever going to be implemented.

So any change to MOS appears to have to go through the guys at Grease pit to make sure that it can be successfully implemented.

This discussion has consensus so I am bringing it up again. Consider it a bump119.56.103.150 05:31, 30 March 2021 (UTC)

Can we incorporate a family tree template?

There is a template on Wikipedia which makes family trees. Can incorporate this into Wiktionary, because it could be useful to display kinship terms in different languages? I was thinking of this to create appendices on various languages using kinship terms. BrightSunMan (talk) 20:21, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

We already have a family tree template that appears on the language category page of every language or proto-language that has descendants. For example, if you go to Category:Magadhi Prakrit language you'll see a gray box that says "Family tree". If you click on "Show" you'll see all the descendants of that language arranged by subfamily. —Mahāgaja · talk 08:33, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

What do you call the loop for hanging a coat?

A coat is hung on a hook by means of a band or loop of fabric in the coat, located near the back of the wearer's neck. What is that band called? Equinox ◑ 20:23, 7 March 2021 (UTC)

I dunno, but when I was a kid the corresponding loop on a shirt was called a fag tag. —Mahāgaja · talk 20:59, 7 March 2021 (UTC)

Ah. But it seems a fag tag is on the back of a shirt, not inside the collar/neck area. Equinox ◑ 21:02, 7 March 2021 (UTC)

This wordreference thread describes it as a "coat loop", which seems to be attested both for this and for other loops/bands on coats, though it doesn't seem like a usual, idiomatic term. Per that thread and fr:lichette, in Belgian French it can be a lichette. "Collar loop" seems to refer to something else (at least some of the time), since I find an 1889 US Army regulation for "a collar loop about 41 inches long and 14 inches wide", which can hardly be this, unless the army was outfitting giants. - -sche (discuss) 22:53, 7 March 2021 (UTC)

I've heard of locker loop. Pretty sure it's not really the word. ॥ ☼ সূর্যমান ☽ ॥ 23:08, 7 March 2021 (UTC)

Category:Eponyms by language

Should this include acronyms, like ZFC?__Gamren (talk) 11:23, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

The practice already appears to be to include eponymous initialisms, such as AA tree, BTZ black hole and CKM matrix. A prime example is JFK for John F. Kennedy International Airport, although this initialism has not been categorized as an eponym. In the course of my examinations I spotted that ZF in the sense of Zermelo–Fränkel set theory is classified as a proper noun; I think it is a common noun. Also, BHO is labelled as an eponym, but I think it is merely a synonym for “Barack Hussein Obama”.  --Lambiam 11:11, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, regarding BHO, I wouldn't consider mere initials to be eponyms, and I see FDR, LBJ and AOC are not so categorized. As for ZFC, I guess it counts as an eponym. If there prove to be very very many such acronyms and they swamp the main category we could consider splitting them into their own (sub)category. - -sche (discuss) 20:33, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

Invalid category label

Hello, How to deal with invalid category label here? Thanks in advance. Lightbluerain (talk) 13:41, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

With {{dialectboiler}}. {{auto cat}} can't handle something as specific as that. —Mahāgaja · talk 14:22, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

@Mahagaja: Thanks a lot. Lightbluerain (talk) 17:49, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

Terms or words?

After looking at Category:Terms by etymology subcategories by language, its subcategories seem to variably use “terms” or “words”, despite no apparent difference (in their contents), i.e., between “word” categories and “term” categories; e.g., “Ghost words” and “Nonce terms”. J3133 (talk) 08:09, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

I believe we use term because a word is generally understood to be delimited by a word divider, whereas a term can also be multi-word term, or an affix. One exception to this is English words like burger sauce, which is pronounced as one word but written as two.__Gamren (talk) 14:12, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

Indeed, most people would not consider the ghost term raffle and crank a word. I don’t think it has any deeper significance than that the creators of “... words” categories were not paying attention to maintaining naming consistency.  --Lambiam 16:58, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

Sometimes, "X words" seems like a set phrase where "X terms" does not, e.g. "ghost words"—a category name which is my fault, sorry—because that's the set phrase while "ghost terms" seems like it means terms for / related to ghosts. (But "ghost words" is already opaque enough that I suppose little is lost by renaming.) In general, as Gamren and Lambiam said, "terms" is better since it is felt to allow multi-word terms. - -sche (discuss) 18:30, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

numeronyms

We have Category:Spanish numeronyms (as, currently, the only numeronym category) with entries like 23F defined as "1. (numeronym, Spain) the date of the 1981 Spanish coup d'état attempt, February 23th, 1981. 2. (metonymically, Spain) the coup d'état itself". First, is it sensible to have "numeronym" as a usage context label, or should it just be a category? Second, should we categorize 9/11 and 7/7 as Category:English numeronyms? (Given the broad scope of the description, "number-based names", should we also categorize things like 1/O and 2-by-4 / two-by-four? 2-by-4 is currently a redlink but doubtless attested and as idiomatic or SOP as the spelled-out form.) - -sche (discuss) 20:37, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

Is the noun threesome number-based? I suspect (I was not familiar with the term) that, more accurately, a numeronym is a term that is or contains a symbolically represented numeral, so 3some would be one but threesome is not. Do Roman numerals qualify, as for the proper noun LXX? Numeronymness is prima facie evident, so labels are overkill. The categories seem (to me) harmless, but I don’t see how they are useful.  --Lambiam 14:20, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, same -- doesn't really seem interesting.__Gamren (talk) 01:24, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

The elusive abanga

Because Category:en:Palm trees is starting to get a little full, I thought I would do some preliminary groundwork toward splitting the category. As I generally do, I created a user sub-page with the taxonomic structure of the group so I can sort all of the names into taxonomic groups and see what sub-groups have enough members to justify a new category. Little did I know that the first name on the list would defeat all of my best efforts at finding anything definite about the plant.

Our entry was imported from Webster 1913 by an IP in 2002:

Abanga, noun [Name given by the negroes in the island of St. Thomas.]

A West Indian palm; also the fruit of this palm, the seeds of which are used as a remedy for diseases of the chest.

The second edit was in 2003, and included a note:

• Note This editor has not yet been able to identify the exact plant intended.

Not much has changed since then. There are a people and places in Africa that make this hard to search for, but basically, just about everything is in a dictionary or an encyclopedia, and there are no pictures or botanical names. This Encyclopedia Britannica entry from 1841 has about as complete a collection of the details that are shared by the other entries as I could find:

ADY in Natural History, a name given to the palm-tree of the island of St Thomas. It is a tall tree with a thick, bare, upright stem, growing single on its root, of a thin light timber, and full of juice. The head of this tree shoots into a vast number of branches, which being cut off, or an incision being made therein, afford a great quantity of sweet juice, which fermenting. supplies the place of wine among the Indians The fruit of this tree is called by the Portuguese caryoces and cariosse and by the black natives abanga. This fruit is of the size and shape of a lemon, and contains a kernel, which is good to eat. The fruit itself is eaten roasted and the raw kernels are often mixed with mandioc meal These kernels are supposed very cordial. An oil is also prepared from this fruit, which answers the purpose of oil or butter This oil is also used for anointing stiff and contracted parts of the body.

Aside from some details of the alleged medicinal uses (which resulted in abanga and ady showing up in older medical dictionaries), the main part left out is how the seeds are boiled and a butter-like oil floats to the surface, which is said to be the color of saffron (here is a reference with the other details). Every other entry is some combination of the facts mentioned in the Britannica entry with those other details.

Finally, I found this French reference, which mentions a source:

ADY. (Bot.) Palmier indiqué dans l'ile de Saint Thomas l'une des Antilles dont le fruit est nommé caryoces et cariasso par les Portugais, abanga par les Nègres de cette ile, au rapport de Jean Bauhin, vol. I, p. 386 Dans le Pinax de Gaspar Bauhin publié postérieurement, ce même palmier ou son fruit est sous le nom d'abariga qui a été probablement mal imprimé, et de plus Gaspar Bauhin le confond avec un palmier de Guinée cité dans Clusius Exot p. 194. Il est probable que c'est la même espèce transplantée d Afrique en Amérique. L'ady a suivant Bauhin un tronc nu gros et très élevé. De ses sommités jeunes coupées sort un suc abondant que l'on reçoit dans un vase et qui devient un vin enivrant très-facilement. Lorsqu'on laisse ces sommités intactes elles donnent des fruits de la grosseur d un limon qui sous un brou charnu renferment une noix ou plutôt une amande nucleus blanche recouverte d une pellicule et bonne à manger avec la farine de manioc. On lui attribue la propriété de rétablir les forces et on en donne aux malades. Le brou charnu trituré dans de l'eau bouillante laisse échapper une huile qui monte à la surface et que l'on recueille pour l employer à divers usages soit stomachiques soit médicinaux Ce palmier a quelques rapports avec l'areng (J.)

That led me to the Pinax theatri botanici by Gaspard Bauhin, which says:

IV. Palma coccifera ex Guinea. Avellanæ Indicæ fpecies Matth Lugd. Avellana Indica, Lob. Tab . (Garz. Fructus I.cum Cocco affinitatem habens Clus. ad Palma Ady, Roëlsio in epist ad Clus. qui an sit Pal- mæ Caryotides Diosc. & Galeni, dubitat. Fructus Abariga incolis Caryoces & Carcosso Lusitanis, Citrii mali magnitudine, ex cujus pulpa oleum exprimunt, id eduliis miscentes ex germi- nibus succum colligunt, quo uu Vino inebriantur.

"abariga" is obviously an error for "abanga", but there are a few references that use that spelling. "Roëlsio in epist ad Clus." refers to a 1597 letter from Thobias Roels that was printed in Carolus Clusius' 1601 work, Rariorum plantarum historia (the letter starts here is the start of the letter). This reference has some background on Roels.

My Latin isn't very good so it's been slow going, but I notice that all the details in the later works can be found here, including oddly specific ones like the fruits being the size and shape of a lemon, and the oil being saffron-colored. Apparently the earliest reference works cribbed from Bauhin and Clusius/Roels, snd everyone after that copied from them. That means that the dictionary entries for the English terms "ady palm" and the palm fruit called "abanga" come from 420-year-old Latin correspondence between Dutch and Flemish speakers.

Which is why I brought this here, so people who read Latin better than I do (and maybe someone who knows Dutch history, etc.) can answer a few questions:

1. What source does Roels give for the information about the ady palm? My first impression was that it was from household slaves in Middelburg who had been there, but I'm not sure about that.
2. Is there any information that can pin down where this "St. Thomas" island is? In spite of what later references say, 1597 seems too early for it to be St. Thomas in the Virgin Islands, and references to the Portuguese seem wrong for that island. To top it off, Roels apparently says it's south of the equator at 33 degrees longitude. The Virgin Islands are north of the equator at something like 64 degrees longitude for a while there, I thought it might be Sao Tome off the African coast, but that would be too far east, and the references to manioc don't fit.
3. Are there any botanical details that might be used to identify the plant?
4. Is there any actual usage anywhere, or are there references I missed that tie "ady" or "abanga"/"abariga" to known trees in known places?

Thanks! Chuck Entz (talk) 07:40, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

I started researching it, and then I realised it was a waste of time. It doesn't seem like it would even pass CFI. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 07:57, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

Several sources equate caryoces with (the fruit of) “the Guinea palm tree”,^[1][2][3] which appears to be Elaeis guineensis.^[4] This fits with the oil extraction described in the Encyclopaedia Britannica entry.  --Lambiam 10:25, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

Roels identifies the Prefect of the Indies, who had enslaved and brought twelve “blacks” from St. Thomas, as an informant. The verb subjaceo means “lie beneath or near”, so it need not imply the Southern hemisphere, but the text also suggests a relation to Brazil not compatible with the Virgin Islands, reinforced both by the statement that the inhabitants of the island use the term manioc, a Tupi word, and the 33° longitude. There are small islands around there off the coast of Brazil, to wit the Fernando de Noronha archipelago.  --Lambiam 18:27, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

Redlink at secrets d'état

Hello, why did I have a redlink at secrets d'état? How to correct it? Lightbluerain (talk) 03:21, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

• I'm looking at the things this user has created and noticing e.g. Category:Okinawan terms spelled with 人 read as っちゅ defined as a dialect category (like also several other categories I deleted, e.g. Category:ne:Vikram Samvat calendar months) and measures the drapes not with ACCEL but manually spelling out first the template (incorrectly) and then the words ... - -sche (discuss) 03:56, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

• Because there's no entry for "d'état" (nor should there be). The way to correct it is by using the |head= parameter. If you put square brackets ([[ ]]) around things inside the head parameter, the template treats everything inside them the same as if they were inside the {{l}} template, and doesn't do anything with anything outside the square brackets. Without the head parameter, it would use spaces and punctuation to divide the entry name into separate words, then it would link to each of them.

Thus it would treat:

• secrets d'état

as if it were:

• {{l|fr|secret}}s {{l|fr|d'état}}.

Adding:

• |head=[[secret]]s [[d']][[état]]

tells it to link the headword as if it were:

• {{l|fr|secret}}s {{l|fr|d'}}{{l|fr|état}}.

The template is designed to make things look deceptively simple, but actually it's very sophisticated. Chuck Entz (talk) 04:02, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

Chuck Entz, Alright, thanks. Lightbluerain (talk) 18:55, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

Pali Transliteration

@Octahedron80: I believe pi-translit is now ready to be added as the Pali transliteration module in the languages data module, and therefore request its addition.

Now, as may be seen from its testcases, Pali has a rich enough array of writing systems for some scripts that correct transliteration cannot always be achieved. Is there some mechanism to feed in a hint as to which writing system is in use? I couldn't see one. An override mechanism is needed for headwords, not only for the rare difficult cases, but for ambiguous cases. For example, เสนหะ could transliterate to sneha or senha. I intend to add the override to the headword templates once there is by default something to override. RichardW57 (talk) 21:53, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

the word "awry" is not in Wiktionary

I looked in "Requested entries." I cannot find where to actually enter "awry" or where to begin.

I request assistance in starting the inclusion in Wiktionary of "awry."

Thank you.— This unsigned comment was added by Donthun1 (talk • contribs) at 03:24, 16 March 2021 (UTC).

We already have an entry at awry- it's been there since 2004. Unlike Wikipedia, our entries are both upper and lower case (Polish and polish are two completely unrelated entries), so if you were looking at Awry, you were looking in the wrong place. Chuck Entz (talk) 04:20, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

Concern about propagation of mistakes in Esperanto entries

(If there's a more appropriate venue for this, please move.) Recently I noticed that @Eaterjolly had made multiple edits to Esperanto entries that introduced errors, some of them very basic [5] [6] [7], some of them more subtle, such as this [8] and this [9], and at least one of them containing bizarre, unsupported speculation [10]. I undid these edits, but unfortunately, when I came back today, Eaterjolly reverted many of entries back to the incorrect version.

Even though the current versions are clearly wrong, I didn't want to start an edit war, so I'd like to highlight this for community consideration. Just for extra context, this user has also contributed to Esperanto Wikipedia, demonstrating a very poor grasp of the language. It's not my intention to single out anyone in particular - I just don't want these mistakes to be propagated further, especially since some of them remained live for months at a time without being spotted.

Best, Audrey (talk) 03:26, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

I have a friend who once got angry when someone tied a trash bag without carrying the trash outside. I asked that friend "why get angry about a job half done when you would not get angry about a job not done?" so from then on I would tie the trash bag that someone else would carry and the trash would go out at least twice more often. Eaterjolly (talk) 10:24, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

@Eaterjolly, Audreycious: Eater, your analogy shows that you don't understand this. It's more like if you did take the trash out, but you didn't bother tying the bag, and spilled trash everywhere. You did half the job, but you made a mess for someone else to clean up. Here's your official warning: if you keep making errors in your Esperanto edits or edit-warring, you will be blocked. Audrey, please revert any incorrect edits, and leave me a message if the issue persists. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 21:06, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

That's rude. Eaterjolly (talk) 21:19, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

Thank you, @Metaknowledge! I appreciate your rollbacks. The mess should be all cleaned up now. Audrey (talk) 15:19, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

If Aaron Swartz still lived, that fellow would say that the social system of a wiki has more importance than the reputation for credibility. Class or education discrimination undermines neutrality and truth. Again and again throughout history when truth contradicts the morality of the elite or educated then institutions lie and lie with full competence. User:Audreycious still a fresh administrator has not learned that Microsoft sits on the board of the Linux Foundation and Ambrose Bierce wrote w:WP:IAR. Audrey, you know that my edits originated from good will and passion for Esperanto. You posted here rather than AN because you wonder why no one helped me by now not because you wanted to stop me. Kuraĝon, mia amiko! Bonvolu stari pro boneco! Tenu via koro! Adiaŭ Eaterjolly (talk) 21:52, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

This message is absurd both in and out of context. The discussion shows that you're in a hole, so it's probably best to stop digging. — surjection ⟨??⟩ 23:16, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

Fine. Should I do anything else? Eaterjolly (talk) 06:17, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

Attestation in Griko... and ONLY in Griko

Hello! I hope this is the right place - if not, let me know where to put it. I've been doing some note-taking for Griko (Italiot-Greek), nothing serious/trying to avoid actually changing pages since most of it's Supported Theorizing, but I ran across this! https://forum.termometropolitico.com/193067-poesie-griko-notare-somiglianza-litaliano.html#post4372021 It's a poem written in Griko... And then all the commentary is in Italian...

I am a passionate linguist, but I am not good enough in either Italian, modern Greek, OR (god forbid) Italiot-Greek to translate or read any of this, which is a **shame** because it looks like this (or even maybe the original source of the poem) would be a fantastic attestation for a lot of our Griko words. I recognize a lot of them from the entries I've been reading, but without at least some context for the poem, I can't actually say that they mean what our entries say they mean. Anybody here a little better at this than me and/or willing to help? (And/or where do I go?)

Elliott Dunstan (talk) 18:08, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

Hi! I do not know if this is the best solution, but you could insert that poem into an Appendix (A page beginning with "Appendix:", for example, Appendix:Griko poems or Appendix:Griko sources), and leave it there. Speakers of Italian may by chance stumble upon it and help you. However, the obvious solution would be to learn Italian or Greek. ॥ ☼ সূর্যমান ☽ ॥ 20:59, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

No, don't do that. @BrightSunMan, we want to avoid copyright violation... —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 21:00, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

Even if we cite the sources? ॥ ☼ সূর্যমান ☽ ॥ 21:07, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

Just don't copy entire copyrighted texts over to Wiktionary. It's legally unwise, and it's not what Wiktionary is for anyway. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 21:11, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

Knowing only Italian means you’ll recognize a word every now and then, without understanding the text. Knowing both Greek and Italian is not a guarantee you’ll fully understand the text.  --Lambiam 15:32, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

Nevermind, but it seems Griko isn't language in this Wiktionary. ॥ ☼ সূর্যমান ☽ ॥ 21:03, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

@BrightSunMan: Yes it is, but we call it Italiot Greek. —Mahāgaja · talk 07:53, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

Does 'graduation' mean this?

The French word graduation apparently means something like "Encoding of a sound or image producing a digital signal of which one may use a greater or lesser part corresponding to better or worse quality." Does the English word "graduation" mean this too? Or is there another word for it? Troll Control (talk) 09:08, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

The usual English term for the concept is hierarchical coding.^[11] This is a patent in French that uses the term codage gradué, which in English is translated as graduated encoding. The English text of a Chinese patent on hierarchical coding uses the terms hierarchical transmission and graded transmission as apparent synonyms. I think that in this context graduation is the nominalization of the verb graduer, as used in codage gradué, and if the noun has this meaning, then so has the verb. (See also here.) But I think no one would think of this very specific technical meaning without the context of encoding a signal for transmission over a channel with unknown bandwidth.  --Lambiam 14:58, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

deleting obscenities

Please remove this entry under tencere saplı (comparative daha saplı, superlative en saplı) stalked, with a handle saplı tencere ― saucepan (slang) Who has a penis saplı sultan (“chick with a dick; shemale”) 452 bytes (48 words) - 15:19, 15 March 2020

I know such obscenities can be suspicious, but saplı is a normal entry. It does not seem to require deletion. What is the reason for your deletion proposal. (Also, check out Wiktionary:Requests for deletion for serious issues) ॥ ☼ সূর্যমান ☽ ॥ 21:15, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

Note that the slang term saplı sultan also has an entry in the Turkish Wiktionary. IMO it is not any more obscene than chick with a dick. But as we list all words, we also include any attested obscene senses.  --Lambiam 12:24, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

vina

the page for this word does not include the Swedish verb, although the present form 'viner' does exist and includes link to 'vina.' Ps I am obviously a new contributor and would be glad to have instruction how to report such more efficiently. Thanks. Gbrynolf — This unsigned comment was added by Gbrynolf (talk • contribs).

So? What are you waiting for? Go on, and create your first entry! ;) (You do not have to report anything. Wiktionary is full of missing words) ॥ ☼ সূর্যমান ☽ ॥ 21:42, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

The other thing you could do is add something to Wiktionary:Requested_entries_(Swedish) Troll Control (talk) 07:32, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

Hindi Translation to be reviewed?

Hello, I went to the page bitter seeing it in the Category:Requests for review of Hindi translations. But, I didn't see any Hindi translation in the page. What specific task am I supposed to do here? Lightbluerain (talk) 13:37, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

@Lightbluerain: At the bottom of bitter § Translations, there's a box labeled "Translations to be checked". In that box, there's a line listing Hindi कडुवा (kaḍuvā). The required task is to decide which sense(s) of 'bitter' that word corresponds to, and move it to that/those translation table(s). —Mahāgaja · talk 13:49, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

@Mahagaja:, alright. Thanks. Lightbluerain (talk) 16:33, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

שבלת

שִׁבֹּלֶת is claimed to be a defective spelling although it's a biblical spelling. —Mykhal (talk) 21:17, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

Doesn't "defective" in the context of Hebrew spelling merely mean "without matres lectionis"? It doesn't mean there's anything wrong or nonstandard or unhistorical about the spelling. —Mahāgaja · talk 21:49, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

I guess biblical Hebrew is legitimate language, like e.g. ancient Greek. Before my rather plain addition, the only "meaning" was wrong spelling, so at least the formal syntax of the new version of the "article" should be verified. —Mykhal (talk) 08:15, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

We treat Biblical Hebrew and modern Israeli Hebrew as the same language, unlike Ancient Greek and Modern Greek which we treat as two different languages. And as I said, "defective spelling" doesn't mean "wrong spelling", it means spelling without matres lectionis. It's a technical term; we probably need to add a sense to defective and/or create an entry for defective spelling. —Mahāgaja · talk 09:15, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

@Mahagaja: Or maybe what is needed is just a "support" for ISO 639-3 language hbo. —Mykhal (talk) 18:02, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

"Defective spelling" is the standard technical term for this used in just about every dictionary or grammar written in English for centuries. Just as accusative does not involve blaming people and perfect/imperfect is not a description of quality, this doesn't mean what you think it does, and we would have to rewrite hundreds of entries to "fix" this. Changing the language code/header is irrelevant- "defective" is used throughout Biblical scholarship. Instead of Category:Hebrew defective spellings we would have "Category:Biblical Hebrew defective spellings", since there's no other term that I know of for this. The alternative would be not mentioning that there are equivalent spellings that differ only in whether the yod or vav is written out. Chuck Entz (talk) 20:18, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

@Mykhal, Mahagaja moved to Information desk; not an RFV issue but a discussion of terminology — Mnemosientje (t · c) 12:38, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

Etymology of Jutes

The tribes of West Germanic peoples seem to be named after objects, such as Angles from angulō (a fishhook), Saxons from sahsą (a knife or dagger), and Franks from frankô (a spear or javellin). However, I could find no information about where the Jutes come into this. The links of the words that formed the etymology of the Jutes (such as eutīz) are all red (ie do not exist). Can some linguist explain what eutīz means? 122.148.185.44 05:58, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

In fact, there is a *blue* link to *eutaz sitting there in Jute. RichardW57 (talk) 09:42, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

There is now, but there wasn't when the question was asked. —Mahāgaja · talk 20:46, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

Sorry for not signing my question, I asked this same question on the etymology forum and someone added the correct link.122.148.185.44 05:58, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

Tablet editing

I am using only my tablet for I think 5-ish years for stuff I like from now on. Any tips for quickly editing and adding entries in tablet/mobile? ॥ ☼ সূর্যমান ☽ ॥ 20:34, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

@BrightSunMan:Hello, at the bottom of the m-obile page, there is a word Desktop which you can jump back. Visual editor still works on mainspace pages as long as it is not too large. And your fingers will have to do the work instead of a computer mouse?119.56.99.248 11:53, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

O a question of my own

Getting to Thesaurus entry

Hey. I want to quickly go between dictionary entry and thesaurus entry, and vice versa, and I finding it hard to jump between the two namespaces. Any tips?119.56.99.248 11:53, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

I don't really understand the issue. If you want the thesaurus page for příbuzný, write Thesaurus:příbuzný or WS:příbuzný in the search bar or in the url bar of your browser.__Gamren (talk) 21:33, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

The issue is that the two, Wiktionary and Wikisaurus, appear to exist in two distinct worlds. As if there is no relation between them.

Most online directionaries now already do link between their dictionary and thesaurus entries because they do see that the two resources are complimentary. The thesaurus entries are like lists of related-nyms. Online dictionary entries often make some reference to related words also. But here on WT, it is very unintuitive because Wiktionary and Wikisaurus are apart. Your usual web reader is not going to take special effort to go from one to the other.119.56.99.16 04:46, 30 March 2021 (UTC)

Many entries do link to thesaurus entries in the "Synonyms" section (or in the inline list of synonyms below the definition line). e.g. scared stiff#Synonyms links to Thesaurus:afraid. In cases where there's a relevant thesaurus entry that's not linked to, it's probably just because no-one has got around to adding it. You could always add the link yourself and help out future readers! Colin M (talk) 16:32, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

Always minimize all sections (mobile version)

How can I set that all language sections are minimized by default when using the mobile version? It’s very annoying to scroll so much. Regards, —A11w1ss3nd (talk) 16:42, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

I get you. Wikipedia articles load with sections minimized. May we check out what's different.119.56.98.98 17:27, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

I will bring this to the Grease pit to see if they know what is up.119.56.97.84 05:43, 30 March 2021 (UTC)

Moved to Project:Beer parlour/2021/April#collapsed/minimized language headers119.56.96.203 06:40, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

===collapsed/minimized language headers=== I am bringing this up again for our attention. On mobile pages, language headers are overtly expanded which makes the pages very long to scroll through.

A 2014 change in phabricator was the cause of Wiktionary headers always being expanded. This is different from other Wikimedias which have collapsed headers, which makes it easy to go to header you want to. (shared by someone from the tech community).

I was not sure how much community agreement the change has.

One suggested solution is to set the headers to collapsed again.

A second proposal is to only collapse entries with more than, say, 5 language headers. Then, shorter pages with less than 5 headers will not be collapsed. This behavior is like the _TOC_ box which only appears when there are about 5 or more language headers in desktop view.

I wonder how many of us write on mobile, but increasing number of people use mobile view to visit Wiktionary. This means overly long pages which are difficult to read are driving away readers and potential contributors. So it is quite an important issue. 119.56.98.229 04:54, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

I was thinking how many pages and how many visitors are affected by this issue. We can have a look at the most visited pages, have a look using mobile view and imagine how it will look like on a phone/tablet. There should be a link to most visited at Special:Statistics119.56.98.229 04:54, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

◇

In https://mathworld.wolfram.com/CauchyIntegralTheorem.html, this symbol is apparently used to refer two line (4-5), presumably it translates as "the line before the last". Has anyone encountered this before?__Gamren (talk) 21:28, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

I think it is a curious mistake. In an earlier version the two lines of equation (4–5) were simply labelled (4), and the reference read, correspondingly, "so (4) becomes". In late April or early May 2005 the two lines were labelled separately (4) and (5) – not a good idea IMO, since (5) does not make sense as a standalone phrase – and the reference was updated to read, "so (5) becomes". Next thing, "(5)" was changed to "(◇)", which does not make sense to me.  --Lambiam 20:53, 30 March 2021 (UTC)