Wiktionary:Information desk/2022/June

discussion rooms: Tea room • Etym. scr. • Info desk • Beer parlour • Grease pit ← May 2022 · June 2022 · July 2022 → · (current)

---

Potentially German word in an English-language film

There is a word I'm trying to make out in the film The Vampire Bat (1933), a movie which is in the public domain in the United States. The film is provided above. The film is set in a German village, and the film often uses borrowed German words to reflect the setting of the film.

The scene in question starts at 35:30. This is a scene where the hypochondriac character Aunt Gussie is making some kind of drink to cure various perceived ailments she has. The full line is:

That's for the neuritis...and the pepsin—that hasenpfeffer was tougher than shoe leather. And (inaudible word)—that'll help, at least it won't do any harm. And ginger...that will warm my stomach. And, now, a little bicarb of soda.

It sounds to me like another borrowed German word, perhaps preceded by the English word "sweet" or perhaps not... But online film transcriptions don't give a definite answer as to what this word might be. One transcription lists it as "sweet" with nothing after it, and another lists it as "sulfatonate", and both of these answers are clearly wrong.

Any ideas as to what this mystery word might be? Any German speaker opinions? PseudoSkull (talk) 16:36, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

I hear "(a) sweet spritz of ?". The last word sounds like "lighter". – Jberkel 17:15, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

Maybe niter? Equinox ◑ 17:18, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

Or sweet spirits of nitre^[1][2][3]?  --Lambiam 20:22, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

Need a transcription (and even English translation) of this Hebrew text

It's from the American silent film Raggedy Rose (1926). Full video file of the public-domain film for context: it appears at 11:58.

There may be more needed Hebrew text incoming. PseudoSkull (talk) 23:46, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

The same question has been posted at the Wikipedia Reference Desk.  --Lambiam 19:30, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

Can edit summary be edited after saving?

Hi,

For example, after adding a Ukrainian section on the page "старше" I noticed that "Adverb:" was mysterious added before my summary, when my addition was in fact a comparative adjective form. Thus...

→Adverb: Added Ukrainian section with comparative adjective forms.

...and there have been other times when I would have liked to modify my summary simply to be a little more clear. Can I not edit my summaries because I'm using a mobile device? Or for some other reason? Or is it generally just not possible?

DaveyLiverpool (talk) 10:40, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

From Help:Edit summary#Fixing on Wikipedia: “After you publish the page, you cannot change the edit summary”. We use the same wiki software, and this also applies here.  --Lambiam 12:04, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

Is there an API for wiktionary.org?

A few questions on how to programmatically use/read/"consume" "words" at wiktionary.org 1. Is there an API-interface for reading content from wiktionary.org in a structured way? 2. Is there a typed schema/format of the "words" (data) stored in wiktionary.org? 3. It is difficult to search for information about wiktionary in itself, you most of the time end up on "content pages". What is the best way to search/find information on wiktionary itself and not the data it contains? 213.80.106.242 12:41, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

I wish it was possible to search the Internet for information. Have you seen: [4]? Equinox ◑ 12:46, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

Etymology Coding Issue

Hey @Fish bowl, Justinrleung, Quercus solaris, -sche, Sgconlaw, Theknightwho, Whoop whoop pull up, Wyang & all lovely and talented editors who see this: I don't know who could do this, but would you or someone be willing to add:

m["cmn-hp"] = {

canonicalName = "Hanyu Pinyin",

aliases = {"Pinyin"},

parent = "cmn",

wikidata_item = 42222,

}

m["cmn-wg"] = {

canonicalName = "Wade–Giles",

aliases = {"Wade-Giles", "Wade Giles"},

parent = "cmn",

wikidata_item = 208442,

}

into the script at Module:etymology languages/data here? I apparently don't have the authority to do so- I get a message that says "This page has been locked to prevent editing. (You can recommend any additions or changes to this page on its talkpage, if the latter is not similarly locked, or at the Information Desk.)"). See diff and Talk:Kuomintang for discussion. It's a good move in the right direction as far as the editors involved thought. Make any change you think appropriate! I just want to use "cmn-wg" or similar to be auto-generated to say 'Wade-Giles'. Peace out. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 19:46, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

How to report another user

An admin sent me a malicious message the other day on another user's talk page. To give some context, I attempted to appeal a rollback, in favor of immediately deleting a dubious Wiktionary page. The admin in question, with whom I had no prior contact, said, "Tagging it for immediate deletion just makes you look overbearing and clueless". In my eyes, this offhand remark is a display of deliberate intimidation, and violates Wiktionary's 'Terms of Use', specifically the following:

Harassing and Abusing Others Engaging in harassment, threats, stalking, spamming, or vandalism; and Transmitting chain mail, junk mail, or spam to other users.

If anyone could help me report the user known as Chuck Entz, I would greatly appreciate it. Thank you. 2601:282:1881:E460:6537:F64E:67F3:93BB 11:34, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

Regarding this, you must assume good faith with fellow editors and admins - and there's no reason to say that the comment was supposed to be "intimidating". You tagged the page with {{d}} without even giving any reason, and @Chuck Entz also gave you the process (that is, to use {{rfv|en}}) if you wished to question the word's attestability. —Svārtava (talk) • 12:13, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

If Chuck's mild comment is "harassment" then so is your reporting of him! Equinox ◑ 12:32, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

If that comment is "harassment", then I harass people a dozen times a day. On a good day. Zumbacool (talk) 12:41, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

Equinox That's a rhetorical fallacy. Harassment's on a spectrum. Sure this comment was "mild", but it's still incredibly inappropriate. Moreover, reporting harassment is not itself harassment.

Zumbacool If you make comments such as that, dozen of times a day, then you should take a long look in the mirror and ask yourself why you feel the need to behave so perniciously.

Svārtava I completely disagree. There's good reason to say that the comment was supposed to be intimidating (without quotations), most notably its disparaging tone i.e. "overbearing" and "clueless". This could've been articulated far more respectfully. As for the rest of your comment, you're right, I messed up tagging the page for deletion without giving any reason. While Chuck Entz did provide me with a process of questioning the word's attestibility, (that is, to use {{rfv|en}}), this does not excuse his behavior.

To all, thank you so much for answering my question, showing me how to report another user, and upholding Wiktionary's terms and conditions /s.

Transcription Style

Is there editorial consensus on how much our quotes should reflect the original printing or scribal hand of the texts we're quoting? I've run into three problem areas

1. Obsolete letter forms like ſ, ẏ, and ꝛ, and the interchange of u and v
2. Scribal abbreviation like ꝥ, ð, ꝑ, and ⁊
3. Typefaces like Blackletter, Insular, Unical, many of which are in unicode

To give an example, is there editorial concencus on whether the quote should read:

• (From a book printed 1542)
  • When that Apryll wyth hys ſhoures ſote / The dꝛought of Marche had perced to rote / And bathed euery vayne in ſuche lycoure...
  • (or) Whan that Apryll wyth hy shoures sote / The drought of Marche had perced to the rote / And bathed every vayne in suche lycoure...
  • (or) 𝖂𝖍𝖆𝖓 𝖙𝖍𝖆𝖙 𝕬𝖕𝖗𝖞𝖑𝖑 𝖜𝖞𝖙𝖍 𝖍𝖞 ſ𝖍𝖔𝖚𝖗𝖊𝖘 ſ𝖔𝖙𝖊 / 𝕿𝖍𝖊 𝖉ꝛ𝖔𝖚𝖌𝖍𝖙 𝖔𝖋 𝕸𝖆𝖗𝖈𝖍𝖊 𝖍𝖆𝖉 𝖕𝖊𝖗𝖈𝖊𝖉 𝖙𝖔 𝖙𝖍𝖊 𝖗𝖔𝖙𝖊 / 𝕬𝖓𝖉 𝖇𝖆𝖙𝖍𝖊𝖉 𝖊𝖛𝖊𝖗𝖞 𝖛𝖆𝖞𝖓𝖊 𝖎𝖓 𝖘𝖚𝖈𝖍𝖊 𝖑𝖞𝖈𝖔𝖚𝖗𝖊

• (From a manuscript from c. 1400 )
  • Whan that Aueryl w^t his shoures soote / The droghte of march hath ꝑrcd to the roote / And bathed euerẏ veẏne in sweich lẏcour
  • (or) Whan that Auerẏll with his shoures soute / The droghte of march hath pe[r]rcd to the roote / And bathed euery veyne in sweich lycour Winthrop23 (talk) 14:53, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

I'll take the easy one first: we don't use obsolete typefaces in quotes. They just make it harder for most users to read without imparting any useful information. The mere fact that we don't have most of our quotes for older German terms in Fraktur should be evidence enough. As for obsolete letter forms: there's no hard and fast rule. Some like to use them to make the quotes seem more authentic, but others prefer the more readable modern equivalents. As for the scribal abbreviations, their occurrence as dictionary entries is still being argued out on technical grounds. I'm not sure we have consensus re: their use in quotes. Most printed editions expand them into the text they represent. Given that Middle English, for example, is wildy varied orthographically and different manuscripts of the same work often use different spellings, I would say that we would be better off only using variations such as those to illustrate occurrence of the variation itself, not stylistically for giving the look and feel of the original- but that's just my opinion. Chuck Entz (talk) 15:18, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

Should the quotation be in the Unicode script implied by the extant text being quoted? As an example, Fraktur (Latf) should generally be converted to Antiqua (Latn) because Unicode does not distinguish them except for special purposes such as mathematical symbols. (Ligation controls are another matter. They do distinguish words in Fraktur.) An example of the question would be quoting Pali text from a Roman script edition of some old text. May or should one transliterate it back to, say, Sinhala or Burmese even though one potentially cannot know from the Roman script how the original was spelt? (For example, where it is documented when to use ligating as opposed to touching conjuncts in the Sinhala script? What are the rules for round v. tall AA in Burmese Pali? Have they changed in the past few centuries? They have for Burmese!) --RichardW57m (talk) 10:25, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

Head of compound proper nouns

It seems that the first word of all compound proper nouns on Wiktionary is always the head, even if that word is not a noun. E.g. United Arab Emirates or New York. Is this by design or is there a way to assign the head of a proper noun phrase to the actual noun if it is not the initial word?

E.g.

===Proper noun=== {{en-proper noun|head=[[united|United]] [[Arab]] [[emirate|Emirate]]s}}

===Proper noun=== {{en-proper noun|head=[[new|New]] [[York]]}}

Gavinkwhite (talk) 10:18, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

@Gavinkwhite I don't understand what you mean by the first word being "the head" on United Arab Emirates or New York. All of the constituent words are treated the same, aren't they? For instance, you can click on "Emirates" and "York". 98.170.164.88 04:55, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

@Gavinkwhite: "head" here has nothing to do with lexical or syntactic terminology. In our templates, |head= is for headword, and is used for controlling the display of the template. Text in the parameter is displayed without the automatic linking of the component words that would happen otherwise. Putting wikilinks in the parameter causes linking to only those parts that are in the wikilinks. In the examples you gave, the result is displaying everything capitalized, but linking to the entries for lowercase common nouns and adjectives where appropriate: united Arab emirates, new York. Chuck Entz (talk) 05:16, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

@Gavinkwhite: Note that the entire marked up phrase forms the |head= parameter passed to the template; the first word is not singled out. Without it, the page name would be the headword, without any realisation that some words were capitalised simply because they were part of a proper name. --RichardW57 (talk) 06:46, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Thanks @Chuck Entz & @RichardW57 - this is much clearer now. From what I can tell so far, for an isolating language such as Vietnamese, |head= can be used to

- link to common noun components of a compound proper noun (as in the examples above and Hoàng Hạc Lâu)

- show the component parts of compound words such as cao lương mỹ vị (cao lương and mỹ vị)

- remove links to component parts devoid of lexical meaning (nấng in nuôi nấng)

Are there any other uses of |head= that I have missed here? Is there any way to search for Vietnamese lemmas with |head= in their entries or to create a category of them?

I seem to remember reading somewhere that |head= should also be used to specify the component of a compound noun that is modified by a classifier (hence my confusion about |head=) but I can’t seem to find this again. In any case, this does not now seem to be the case. E.g. for the noun đại dịch (pandemic), dịch is modified by the classifier trận, although it is not possible to specify this word as the grammatical head in Wiktionary. Gavinkwhite (talk) 05:08, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

@Gavinkwhite: most headword templates have a headword parameter, even if it isn't always called "head". I noticed that you replaced {{vi-noun}} with {{head}}. That wasn't necessary, because you can do anything with the first parameter of {{vi-noun}} that you can do with the |head= parameter of the {{head}} template. I'm sure there are ways to get {{head}} to do the same things that {{vi-noun}} does, but they would require a lot of unnecessary wikitext to imitate what {{vi-noun}} is specifically designed to do. If you haven't already done so, you should go to the templates themselves and read the documentation there. The template I used here to display the names of the templates displays them as clickable links to the template pages, or you can search for Template:head or Template:vi-noun, etc. If you're editing a page and you click "Show preview", there is a list below the edit window of all the templates and modules used in the previewed section, in the form of clickable links. Chuck Entz (talk) 06:07, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

I noticed that you replaced {{vi-noun}} with {{head}}. In which entry? I am still trying to work out how exactly to use the {{head}} template for Vietnamese.

If you haven't already done so, you should go to the templates themselves and read the documentation there. They're not really all that helpful TBH and they don't answer the questions I raised here.

If you're editing a page and you click "Show preview", there is a list below the edit window of all the templates and modules used in the previewed section, in the form of clickable links. Ok, I'll look into this but it doesn't seem entirely relevant to my problems here. One thing I noticed is that there are two templates for IPA: {{vi-IPA}} and {{vi-ipa}} which redirects to {{vi-IPA}}. Any idea what that is about?

I appreciate Vietnamese may not be your field of expertise but I feel like I'm progressing by trial and error in the absence of relevant information about how to contribute to Wiktionary. Thanks. Gavinkwhite (talk) 03:58, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

Usage of "crèche"

There are four definitions in English Wiktionary. Two of them are never used in the United States ("A hospital for orphaned infants; a foundling hospital" and "A day nursery." But there is no statement of where these two definitions are used. (I know they are used in Britain, at minimum.) Is it appropriate to add to these definitions the parenthetical "(not in USA)"? Downtowngal (talk) 16:02, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

Are you certain? They might be historical or obsolete (i.e. used in US once but no longer). Equinox ◑ 16:12, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

The word appears in the 1892 Webster's HS Dictionary as "a public day nursery for poor children", which is only the 2nd definition. And that doesn't tell us where or how much it was in use in the US. I think research in newspaper articles or novels would be necessary.

I have never heard "crèche" spoken in the US, or seen any contemporary texts that use it. The terms are "orphanage" or "children's home". Can we say "obsolete in US"? Downtowngal (talk) 16:42, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

Have a look now. I found an orphanage sense in an old US book. Equinox ◑ 16:52, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

Great. Thanks. Downtowngal (talk) 16:54, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

Citing Kindle for Quotations

I need help in choosing the parameters for {{quote-book}} to quote a book giving the content and location of some rock inscriptions, which inscriptions I quote. (The inscriptions themselves are clearly in the public domain.) I have set the references up in {{RQ:oty:Mahadevan}}, which can be seen in action at 𑀫𑀓𑁵 (makaḷa). I primarily reference the quoted text by page number. The source I have seen the book via is the Kindle edition.

The Kindle edition seems to cite itself as:

Early Tamil Epigraphy: From the Earliest

Times to the Sixth Century C.E.

Iravatham Mahadevan

©Central Institute of Classical Tamil, Chennai

First published 2014

Amazon Kindle Edition, 2020

Subject: Inscriptions, Tamil.

Language: English

ISBN: 9789381744147

Typeset & published by Central Institute of Classical Tamil

The 2014 book is the second edition; the first edition of the book was published in 2003. I use the 'republication' format and modify the text returned by {{quote-book}} to give 'published in' rather than 'republished as', which happened to be suppressed by the use of |edition2=. I can't verify that the page numbers given in the Kindle edition are the same as in the paper book. As they start at '1', for the flysheet, I strongly suspect that they are not. (I partly work around this by giving designations for the inscriptions.) It is even conceivable that viewing the book via the web is giving me different page numbers to what I will get when I download it to a physical device - on the web I am told page numbers up to 1054, but Google books reports that it has 769 pages. For the 2014 book, Abe Books reports 772 pages, and gives the same ISBN as above.

I currently give the identification of the edition by the following parameters to {{quote-book}}:

|location2 = Chennai

<!--|publisher2 = Central Institute of Classical Tamil-->

|publisher2 = Amazon

|year2 = 2020

|edition2 = Amazon Kindle edition of 2^nd

|isbn = 9789381744147

I am not happy with the output for the reference. What parameter values should I be using? Do I have to buy the paper book? --RichardW57 (talk) 22:54, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

It would be easier to answer if you explained why you are not satisfied with the current citation format, which looks decent to me (although I think "Central Institute of Classical Tamil" may be a more informative publisher value than "Amazon"). 98.170.164.88 06:54, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

@98.170.164.88: I'd rather reference the 2014 paper book and cite the CICT as publisher, rather than the cheaper Kindle edition (less than a third of the price, and instantly available), as I feel the book is more durable. The inscriptions themselves have limited durability - two of those recorded in the book have already been destroyed by graffiti over the last century or so. Unfortunately, I currently only have page numbers for the Kindle edition of 2020, which appears to differ from the book in at least that respect. A compromise would be to reference both. Perhaps I can make figure or plate numbers usable - they are probably conserved between the paper edition and the Kindle edition. I've gone some way towards that by using inscription designators as titles of the work in the quotation. Another possibility is to sever the connection with {{quote-book}}, perhaps updating it manually. At least stylistically, I think that severing that connection is a bad solution. --RichardW57m (talk) 10:28, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

If there is a figure number for the quote, that would be a good thing to add, perhaps with |section2=. Chapter name/number could also help. 98.170.164.88 13:05, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

If I fully switch to citing the Kindle edition, then I have a problem with |location2=. I'm not sure where the Kindle edition was published from, but I need the parameter to get an appropriate format for the reference! I suppose I could put Tellus Tertius or something equally ridiculous, and edit it out, but that decreases the resilience of the template to changes in {{quote-book}}. --RichardW57m (talk) 10:40, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

@98.170.164.88 I've decided to refer to figure numbers, and to cite the 2014 book. This means ditching page numbers. As there is no central list of figures, I've added a link to the citation to say where in the book the figures are. --RichardW57 (talk) 21:54, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Request to Un-delete a page I started that was wrongly and justly deleted upon its publication

How can I submit a request to un-delete a page I published? MaximvsDanensis (talk) 20:21, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

@MaximvsDanensis: What page was it? It probably didn't meet our inclusion requirements at WT:CFI. Equinox ◑ 22:14, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

I tried to make an entry for the Greek word "αὐτουργός" [autourgós] (farmer). MaximvsDanensis (talk) 17:44, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

There were a lot of issues with the formatting. For future reference, here was the content of the page:

==English==

===Noun===
{{en-noun}}

# farmer

At bare minimum, the section heading should be "Ancient Greek" instead of "English", the word "farmer" should be linked like [[farmer]], and {{head|grc|noun}} should be used instead of {{en-noun}}, although it would be even better to use {{grc-noun}} with the correct parameters for declension. And there are some users who create bare-bones entries like that, e.g. see kuulipilduja.

But ideally, we'd want it even more fleshed out, with a template for the full declension table, pronunciation, etymology, reference templates like {{R:LSJ}}. You can look at Wiktionary:Entry layout explained and Wiktionary:About Ancient Greek for tips, or any existing Ancient Greek entry. Also, any future entry should probably note that it's also used as an adjective meaning something like "self-employed", not just as a noun meaning something like "farmer". 70.172.194.25 18:01, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

Official websites as source of quotations

Can we add quotations from official websites? ·~ dictátor·mundꟾ 10:56, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

What is an "official website"? What makes a site official? You might like to see Wiktionary:Beer_parlour#Citing_le_Reddit_etc.. Equinox ◑ 17:32, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

Official websites as this. ·~ dictátor·mundꟾ 21:01, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

As a matter of fact: quotations can be added from any websites (I've often quoted and seen news sites been quoted, in some entries we have quotes from Twitter et al. too, etc.) but non-durably archived citations may not count towards attestation unless voted upon specifically. @Inqilābī, is there any word which is citable there and which would otherwise fail? If not, you can probably quote it just as it is but to add a term from it otherwise not meeting WT:ATTEST it would need a vote like the recent validation votes. —Svārtava (talk) • 12:15, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

Words from a Native American language in a sound film

In the above 1934 film adaptation (Wikipedia article) of Hawthorne's The Scarlet Letter, can anyone familiar with Native American languages identify what's being said and in what language at 03:26—03:40? The actor of the Native American in this scene is Iron Eyes Cody (uncredited), with Roger Chillingworth who can uniquely speak to the Native Americans in the region (played by Henry B. Walthall). The film is set in Puritan Boston, Massachusetts, so they may be speaking a language that was prevalent in that place and time. It's entirely possible that it's gibberish pseudo-language, though. @Chuck Entz, any thoughts? PseudoSkull (talk) 21:24, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

My attempted transcription: "Native American: Hey! Ishkaba! Chillingworth: Dima bayutuwa bayorega? Native American: Dila shtate, dala iseshkawa. Chillingworth: Ah." PseudoSkull (talk) 21:28, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

@PseudoSkull The "Hey! Ishkaba!" part is Chillingworth yelling the Native American's name to get his attention. Aside from a little Lakhota I learned at UCLA and a word or two of Nahuatl, my knowledge is pretty much limited to California and the Great Basin. @-sche knows more about the languages of the region. That said, the name has a Yiddish feel to it, which matches the demographics of a lot of Hollywood script writers of the era: people tend to draw on non-English languages they know when they make up fake words in other languages (see Borat for this phenomenon at work). Given that Iron Eyes Cody had no relation to any of the indigenous peoples of the area, and given that this was an extremely minor side detail in a film focusing on a caricature of Puritan culture, at a time when nobody really cared about Native American issues except in Westerns, I really doubt they would have gone to the trouble of getting authentic dialog. Chuck Entz (talk) 16:42, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

While I can't rule out that it is (like the Yiddish text asked about earlier) aiming at some kernel of real language, it's not immediately identifiable to me as anything meaningful in Algonquian (Massachusett or Abenaki), and the context (spoken by a Pretendian actor as a minor side detail, as Chuck says) disinclines me to put much effort in, as it's probably made-up or warped, like many an "Irish" refrain in a song, beyond recognition. Aside from recorders of wordlists, the only author I'm aware of offhand in that general time and place who put accurate Native-American-language dialogue into his work was a Native American. I tried to find what part of Hawthorne's book the scene might be based on, which doesn't seem to include any non-English dialogue, and my guess would be that "Dima-" might be derived from Dimme-sdale, plus random foreign-sounding syllables. - -sche (discuss) 22:36, 2 July 2022 (UTC)