Wiktionary:Information desk/2016/August

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Category:English phrasal verbs with particle (in)

turn in is not in the list. i think it should be added — This unsigned comment was added by 186.23.34.62 (talk).

It's there on page 2 - click "next 200 pages". Keith the Koala (talk) 17:42, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

Names of TV series or video games other brand names or other trademarked pop culture elements

Why is it that CFI doesn't allow just regular TV series to be added. I found three book citations that attest Duckman, the television series (not the surname), in Books. I found independent citations as well, i.e. books that are not about Duckman, although CFI still somehow doesn't allow an entry for this...

But seriously, why? I mean, they're still proper nouns, and many actually have 3 durably archived book sources (I mean a lot of them). Why can they not have definitions here? Philmonte101 (talk) 21:51, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

That's not what a dictionary is traditionally for. Wikipedia can "define" such things far better. They are not general terms but specific things. How could you define it apart from just "a TV show" or whatever? Equinox ◑ 22:08, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

Wiktionary does more than define terms. It gives etymologies, pronunciations, and so on. For this reason I think that brands should be included. —CodeCat 22:17, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

@ User:Equinox "not general terms but specific things" is like the definition of a proper noun. We have countries, cities, names of people and animals, etc. The TV series and video game series and such would obviously need to be mentioned in three citable sources that weren't just about the subject or from the creator of the subject, but they are still technically proper nouns just like Denmark or Winesburg. I'm sure Winesburg, Ohio, as a book, would be notable if these were the guidelines, since it's mentioned in many works of literature and journals, at it is a classic novel. Philmonte101 (talk) 12:44, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

Agreed with User:CodeCat. But I'm just wondering, what is the current motive for WT:BRAND or you know, for other trademarks, such as Transformers (the toyline), Naruto (the anime), Halo (the video game series), Duckman (a TV show and comic series), etc.? Philmonte101 (talk) 22:52, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

"All words in all languages" - what could be simpler. SemperBlotto (talk) 05:02, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

I asked this, because I wanted to see what was up with that. Perhaps, now that I see that there are both a good share of people who believe that brand names and trademark names don't belong, and some who believe that they do belong, perhaps it is a good idea to create a vote about this? Philmonte101 (talk) 12:34, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

Family-spoken and family-invented constructed languages

I know it isn't common. But is there a term for constructed languages that are part of a family tradition and specific to one family? I'm in one of these families and I'm trying to figure out what to really call it. We call it a familispro, but that just literally means "family language".

Okay so and if there's not a term for it, do you guys know any other examples of this sort of rare thing? I'm sure it happens far more in Europe than it does here in the US, since that continent is very multilingual. I think I've heard Esperanto is more commonly spoken in Europe than any other continent, but that's unrelated. Philmonte101 (talk) 12:58, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

I would just call it a family language, unless you really want to emphasize the fact that it is constructed. --WikiTiki89 14:49, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

grammar question

Are both these two sentences grammatically correct? Or only one?

1) If we stay at home, it is comfortable and there is no need to spend money. 2) If we stay at home, it will be comfortable and there is no need to spend money.

Can anyone help? ---> Tooironic (talk) 13:53, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

Both are grammatical, but I would suggest "Staying at home would be comfortable and there would be no need to spend money", which avoids the tense issue altogether. At any rate, it's hypothetical, so you should use a subjunctive construction with "would". Chuck Entz (talk) 14:10, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

I disagree, the first one sounds wrong to me. The second one would also be better if you change the tense of the second verb: “If we stay at home, it will be more comfortable and there will be no need to spend money.” You could also use "would" instead of "will". --WikiTiki89 15:33, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

I now realize that the first sentence would sound right to me if you were talking about a repetitive past action, rather than planning a single future action. --WikiTiki89 15:50, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

Both syntactically sound. I think they are both generally acceptable too; despite Chuck's comment, you don't have to use the subjunctive just because something is hypothetical ("if it rains tomorrow, we will get wet"). #2 sounds slightly odder to me because of the mixture of tenses ("it will" but "there is"). Equinox ◑ 15:44, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

Inflections in example sentences

I've been searching around Wiktionary for a while and cannot really find a definite answer to whether example sentences of a word are allowed to use an inflected form of that word instead. I've seen this in several entries, but instinctively I would think that the example sentence should use the exact form of the word when possible. Is there a definite policy to this? AtalinaDove (talk) 17:59, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

Yes, example sentences should be able to use any form of the word. We typically don't add example sentences to non-lemmas. It would be too much work, and users should be able to see how a word is inflected without having to visit each inflected page. DTLHS (talk) 18:01, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

Adding languages

How can I add codes for new languages onto Wiktionary as so that I can create entries for that language (such as Kalasha)? Lincoln1001 (talk) 11:05, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

Always check our List of languages and our Language treatment page first, since we've spent a lot of time and effort over the past decade on language codes, and there's usually a reason if we don't have a specific code. In this case, though, we do have one: Kalasha is "kls". Chuck Entz (talk) 13:21, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

Yes, but is there a template to use to create Kalasha entries (like Template:en) as there is for English? Lincoln1001 (talk) 14:14, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

What kind of template do you mean? There is no Template:en. —CodeCat 14:20, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

A language code is all that is needed to create the entry (i.e. templates are convenient, but not necessary). For the header, if that's what you are talking about, just write {{head|kls|[part of speech]}}. Andrew Sheedy (talk) 14:23, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

Also, how can I get this format {{index/English|count=271073|date=2012-Apr-28}} for the Kalasha Index page (and other formats used on other language index pages)? Lincoln1001 (talk) 14:53, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Do you mean how to get the word count (271073)? I think you need to ask for the most recent XML dump (such as 2016-Aug-08 XML dump), but I don’t know where to ask for that. Someone here will know. Or if you mean how to format such a page, just click on {{index/English}}, then in the nav bar in the left margin, choose "What links here" to see the pages that use that template. For example, Index:English/e. Then you can examine the page to see how it is formatted. —Stephen ^(Talk) 11:19, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Translation of Russian sentence

"Вес проводников приблизительно 50 тонн." in the context of this Russian text. Specifically, I am interested in exactly what it is that weighs 50 tons. Is it all of the conductors for the 450km transmission line? What hangs between two adjoining towers? Something else? DCDuring TALK 21:56, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

Exactly - this is the total weight of all the conducting material (wires) hanging throughout the length of the transmission line. There's a great site called Russian Language Stack Exchange, by the way, it is a question that migth have been okay there. Cheers, ---CopperKettle (talk) 07:08, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

Languages "relevant to you" gadget, get rid of it once and for all?

I don't really like this very much at all. I always liked to go to popular entries/articles on wikis and scroll down the language list just for fun. I love the interwiki function, and I love how I can immediately see all the languages at once in alphabetical order. It is just one of those weird things I like to do in my spare time.

In all seriousness, now for my question. Is there a way I can internationalize in my preferences that I do not want the new relevant to you languages gadget? I find it really annoying how whenever I go to a new wiki it has that gadget. On my account, I'd like it to burn with fire! Thanks for the help. Philmonte101 (talk) 00:06, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

You can disable it under Preferences, Appearance, Languages. You might have to do this separately on every wiki you use. Equinox ◑ 00:09, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

@User:Equinox Sorry for not clarifying, but that's what I have been doing. I was just wondering if there was a way to disable it on all wikis at once? Philmonte101 (talk) 00:10, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

Doubtful. I see some dreary discussions at [1], [2]. Equinox ◑ 00:15, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

I'm in the same boat. It would be nice to get an answer to this. --WikiTiki89 00:15, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

@ User:Wikitiki89 and anyone else who would like to know, I've finally figured out a way to fix this. Look through the second link Equinox sent off in his comment. There are lines of code you can enter into meta's global.js that will internationalize all your preference settings not to use a CLL. I did it myself. See my code at meta:User:Philmonte101/global.js. Philmonte101 (talk) 05:56, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

English yet

What does the word "yet" mean in this case? "Do you forgive me?" "I yet forgive you."

Speaker is from the UK. Does that mean she has forgiven me, or that she hasn't? I can't tell. @User:Equinox, User:DTLHS, or anybody else know this? Philmonte101 (talk) 05:51, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

• By itself, it means that she forgives you even though your behaviour was unforgivable. With the addition of "don't" (I don't yet forgive you) it means that forgiveness is a future possibility. SemperBlotto (talk) 05:57, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

Should this sense be added? I see a "despite" sense like what you said as a conjunction, but in this case it is being used as an adverb. Philmonte101 (talk) 05:59, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

• In which case it could mean the same as "I am yet to forgive you". (but don't hold your breath) SemperBlotto (talk) 06:13, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

It sounds at least archaic and possibly unacceptable. There is one G.Books hit for "I yet forgive you" and it is from 1878: "although you have crushed and wounded my feelings, and deeply wronged and humiliated me, ... I yet forgive you": this is what Blotto suggested, and here you could replace "yet" with "still". Equinox ◑ 08:28, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

Can it be used this way? "I know that penguins have wings, but I yet find it odd that they cannot fly." Philmonte101 (talk) 17:38, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

That sounds very strange. You'd use "yet" instead of "but": "I know that penguins have wings, yet I find it odd...". Equinox ◑ 16:58, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

I was referring to yet being used as a replacement of the word "still". Maybe it was a bad example, but I took the made-up sentence "I know that penguins have wings, but I still find it odd that they cannot fly." Philmonte101 (talk) 03:39, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

Headstone translation needed

This stone is in our family plot but we do not know who it might be. I would like to know what it says and what language it is in. Here is what is on the stone: IT NY AZ URBAN IF TOROS IS TVAN ET 16. MEG. HALT 1904 11 ?/6 N.BE.PO. No one in the family knows anything about this grave. Thank you!

@Panda10 You have the writing all messed up, but it’s Hungarian. It’s a man named "István Toros". Meghalt means he died. 1904 11 ?/6 appears to be a date, something like Nov. 6, 1904. —Stephen ^(Talk) 11:57, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

@Stephen G. Brown The question was asked by someone else, not me. I think the full sentence is this:

• Itt nyugszik az Úrban ifjabb Toros István, élt 16 évet, meghalt 1904 11 ?/6-n, béke poraira.
• It(t) ny(ugszik) az Úrban if(jabb) Toros István ET(élt) 16. (évet) meghalt 1904 11 ?/6-n BE(béke) PO(raira)

English translation: Here lies in the Lord István Toros Jr. He lived 16 years, died on ?/6-11-1904. Rest in peace. --Panda10 (talk) 12:57, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

Indexes vs. all lemmas

Is there anything which would appear in an index which wouldn't appear in the all lemmas category? I know in theory there is a category for non-lemma terms, but I don't even know what goes there. Korn [kʰũːɘ̃n] (talk) 08:52, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

Inflected and other (morphologically/phonologically) predictable forms are non-lemmas. Crom daba (talk) 12:37, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

I think of lemmas as the terms that would appear in a regular (paper) dictionary, except for irregular inflections such as better. —CodeCat 12:55, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

Requesting some information ( Please move if appropriate)

Hi.

Over on Latin Wikisource I was transcribing thiss:la:Pagina:Faoistin naoṁ-Ṗadraig (1906).djvu/54 andnoted that a number of words have 'u' subst for 'v'. I suspect this is a printers convention, but was asking here for a clarification. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 10:39, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

• See Wiktionary:About Latin for our preferences ("u" for vowel usage, "v" for consonant usage) - but not everyone agrees with that convention. SemperBlotto (talk) 10:53, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

• Makes me wonder why /ekwus/ is ⟨equus⟩ here and not ⟨eqvus⟩. Korn [kʰũːɘ̃n] (talk) 10:59, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

• That's explained at WT:ALA. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 15:14, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

Followup to the former.

I was also slowly transcribing the latin portion here s:la:Pagina:Ruffhead - The Statutes at Large, 1763.djvu/48 and was using a Latin spelling dictionary that was available for Firefox.

However, there seem to be some more obscure words it didn't recognise and some which seem to be corruptions or coinings(/) of the Medieval period. (In particular ae->e seems to have occurred more than once.).

From the single page I was working on, I put a page in my userspace User:ShakespeareFan00/Latin_terms_in_Ruffhead which as I do more transcription pages, I intend to add to. The assistance of other Wiktionary contributors in confirming the words would be appreciated, not least as I am having to determine if it s,f, or long s in some places in the scan. :( ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 13:30, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

Anatomy vs. Zootomy Context Labels

When describing the anatomy of animals, what is the preferred label to put before a definition? For instance, I labelled one definition "zootomy" at auge, but I'm not sure if "anatomy" or perhaps a more specific label is better. Andrew Sheedy (talk) 15:20, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

I'd prefer to do away with the "Zootomy" label. It's a very rare word, and frankly there's so much overlap between human and nonhuman anatomy that it seems like kind of a pointless distinction for us to be making. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 09:07, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

Agree. Not a common word. Gives me nightmares about Webster 1913 and diaeresis. Equinox ◑ 13:11, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

Alright. I just wasn't sure if we wanted to make a distinction between human and nonhuman anatomy for categorization purposes. I've changed the label at auge. Andrew Sheedy (talk) 14:12, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

I agree, and AFAICT the only other entry which used that label was secondary. I've made "zootomy" an alias of "anatomy" so new uses will display "anatomy". - -sche (discuss) 16:53, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

Continuing with the admin votes

Hi. Please do not take this the wrong way, but I notice that we're having admin votes like all the time. Don't we have enough admins here already (just being honest)? Why do we keep holding admin votes when there are already plenty of admins who do the right thing for the site; just to name a few, User:Equinox, User:Romanophile, User:Stephen G. Brown, User:Metaknowledge, User:-sche, User:Angr, User:Leasnam, and User:Chuck Entz, among many other helpful ones? It kinda seems like the majority of active users here are admins. Isn't that kind of unbalancing? Don't we need a good balance between regular active users and admins? Philmonte101 (talk) 14:27, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

LOL, I've noticed that myself. I think regular users are outnumbered by sysops on discussion pages, and anyone who is a regular and long-term contributor here seems to be made an admin. I don't have a problem with it, personally, but it does seem excessive sometimes. Andrew Sheedy (talk) 14:50, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

Well, "admin" is perhaps not the best name. You are probably thinking that "admin" means policeman, boss, or whatever. Sometimes we have to take on that role, but not very often. We make people admins (1) when we trust them, and (2) when they are editing and doing other chores that would benefit from having the buttons, as we say. As admins, they can protect and unprotect files when need be. They can delete or undelete files. Being an admin allows people to work better and more efficiently. Making someone an admin is not so much a benefit to the new admin, it is a benefit to the project, since the admin can do more and do it better. It would be nice if we could make everybody an admin by default, but some people would abuse the power and vandalize the project, and others would screw things up because of immature judgment, etc. So first, we have to be able to trust them. —Stephen ^(Talk) 15:03, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

I agree with Stephen. Admins don't have any more authority than anyone else, just more tools. I see nothing wrong at all with having the majority of our most active editors having the admin tools. Deleting mistaken pages and blocking vandals are things any trusted user should be able to do, and only users with the "admin" or "sysop" flag can do that. It's a good thing for most active editors to be given those tools as soon as they've been around long enough that people trust they won't abuse them. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 15:10, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

Re: "Don't we need a good balance between regular active users and admins?"

Rather, there is a balance of power when basically everybody is an admin, because we can decide together and review the decisions of each other concerning whether a page has to be protected, a person has to be blocked, etc. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 15:13, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

Entries comprised of the same two words in two languages with entirely different meanings

Does anyone know of any two-worded entries here that have entries in 2 languages that just happen not to be SOP and have entirely different meanings from one another? If you know what I mean. Philmonte101 (talk) 16:38, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

Apparently, here here means "the rough side of a piece of obsidian" in Rapa Nui, but unfortunately in English it's only a misspelling. See if you can pick any more out of here. Keith the Koala (talk) 19:38, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

What is this character?

What is the character after tʂ and before ˥? The word is the Ersu word for 'star'. ɿ is the closest thing I can find, and WP says "Those studying modern Chinese phonology have used ⟨ɿ⟩ to represent [z̩], a vowel which represents the i in hanzi", and it is plausible that it would be a vowel... but the tail of ɿ doesn't extent below the baseline in the fonts I looked at. Is there a diacritic that might be extending the tail, or is it another letter entirely, or is it just a font flourish? WP's transcription of the Ersu word for 'star' is tʂ̩́, and various other books have /ʈɽź̩/ [ʈɽr̩]́, ʈɽź̩ - tʃə, or the same notation as depicted above, complete with the tail going below the baseline. - -sche (discuss) 21:55, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

Maybe ʅ (LATIN SMALL LETTER SQUAT REVERSED ESH)? DTLHS (talk) 22:19, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

• From your description the situation seems completely identical to Chinese. This sign is actually representing the absence of a phonemical vowel, which surfaces either as a syllabic (optionally lengthened) coronal fricative (here: [ʂ̩́], [r̩]) or some unstressed central vowel (here: [ə]), which is why you will also find /ɨ/ for /ɿ/ in texts about Chinese. Based on the phonological similarity, it seems reasonable that it's the same glyph in some font variation - or some other glyph meant to represent it. Korn [kʰũːɘ̃n] (talk) 22:20, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

ps.: That glyph is used in other Sino-Tibetan languages too. At least in Mandarin and Tibetan it basically is just a bothersome way to represent a regular allophone of /i/. (Not 100% sure about Tibetan.) Korn [kʰũːɘ̃n] (talk) 22:31, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

Please add the entry for the word Ersu. All I see is a Turkish given name. :/ Philmonte101 (talk) 22:42, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

@DTLHS: The bottom of its 'stem' is flat like that of the 'p', unlike ʅ. OTOH, the stem also goes below the baseline unlike ɿ, so hrmph, it's hard to say / it's not quite either one.

@Korn: OK, I'll assume the extra-long tail is just a font flourish. I know I've seen the symbol before...

@Philmonte101: done. - -sche (discuss)

The tail of ɿ appears long in the Windows Segoe UI and Times New Roman fonts. —suzukaze (t・c) 01:38, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

Interesting; on the computer I'm using right now, the tail ends at (not below) the baseline even in Times New Roman. But I think your pictures confirm that the symbol is ɿ; thank you! - -sche (discuss) 02:19, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

In Pullum and Ladusaw's Phonetic Symbol Guide (2nd edition, 1996, p. 89) it's called "Long-Leg Turned Iota" and it extends below the baseline. They say of it, "The sound denoted is essentially a syllabic [z], which is why the IPA does not recognize any special symbol for this sound." —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 07:51, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

Aha, thank you! And I see this page says "long leg turned iota (a misnomer)" corresponds to U+027F (and "preferred presentation is with a descender", although their own image of it lacks one, lol). So, I'll use ɿ when quoting the books that use that character (but [z̩] when representing it in IPA). - -sche (discuss) 18:17, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

Please be aware that /ɿ/ is a representation of the phonemic principle, namely that the syllable has no vowel phoneme and only a facultative vowel phone. From what you said, if you chose to represent the Ersu word as /tʂz̩/, its actual realiation is still [tʂ̩́], not [tʂź̩]. Korn [kʰũːɘ̃n] (talk) 18:54, 29 August 2016 (UTC)