Wiktionary:Information desk/2022/March

discussion rooms: Tea room • Etym. scr. • Info desk • Beer parlour • Grease pit ← February 2022 · March 2022 · April 2022 → · (current)

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Can someone update Nheengatu data? :)

Old Tupi is one of its ancestors as well, but it is not listed as such. It also use the Latin script. Any help is welcome. — This unsigned comment was added by ContaDeletada2906 (talk • contribs) at 19:32, 1 March 2022.

The template senseid

How do I use the senseid template? — This unsigned comment was added by 107.77.195.138 (talk) at 23:58, 1 March 2022.

In the article with the sense: {{senseid|en|foo}} between # and the start of the gloss. In the article linking to that sense: {{l|en|article|id=foo}}. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 00:01, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

For an example of these templates in action, see the etymology section of byte, in which “bit ” links to bit#English:_binary_digit.  --Lambiam 11:46, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

gitmek

Please add the conjugation table of the Turkish verb gitmek. Thanks 4nn1l2 (talk) 06:24, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

 Done – not a trivial exercise since {{tr-conj}} does not work for this verb, so I put in all forms by hand, and likewise for the conjugation of etmek. So I probably made a couple of mistakes; please review. Even better, of course, would be the fix {{tr-conj}} or create a variant for t→d changing verbs, of which there are many (addetmek, affetmek, akdetmek, ..., zikretmek).  --Lambiam 16:16, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

"Seamy" needs one more definition

We’ve used “seamy” to mean “the least pleasant, the worst” since the 1600s. The idea comes from the seamed side of a sewn garment being the less attractive.

Source: Bill Butler's New York Times crossword puzzle website regarding the answer to clue 82 Down. https://nyxcrossword.com/2022/01/30 — This unsigned comment was added by Dsbened (talk • contribs) at 02:25, 8 March 2022 (UTC).

So add it then, you're more than welcome to if you're so compelled SalomeCzapiewski (talk) 18:51, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

We already have a sense "Sordid, squalid or corrupt" for seamy, which I think covers this meaning. If there's something not already covered then feel free to add a separate one (ideally with a usage example to distinguish the two similar meanings). 70.172.194.25 19:00, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

How do I turn off the IPA keyboard?

I hit something by mistake, and now I can't type a colon for namespace or double brackets for a link, because they're changed into IPA etc. characters (e.g. "templateː", "ʽlinkʼ". This happens both in the search and edit windows, but only on Wikt-enː not on WP or on other wiktionaries. The only reason I can sign my names is that typing a tilde twice turns it back into a tilde. How do I switch back? Thanks. ̴̴̴̴ [oops, looks like those aren't actually tildes.] — This unsigned comment was added by Kwamikagami (talk • contribs) at 00:16, 9 March 2022 (UTC).

@Kwamikagami: Are you using the Vector skin? If so, changing to Monobook will fix this. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 06:07, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

I was using Vector Legacy. Changed to Monobook, shut down my browser & restarted, no difference in behaviour. I don't have custom CSS or JS. This just started happening today. ̴̴̴̴— This unsigned comment was added by Kwamikagami (talk • contribs).

@Kwamikagami: Have you seen mw:Help:Extension:UniversalLanguageSelector/Input methods? —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 08:26, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

That was it! Thanks. I don't know how I changed my prefs. kwami (talk) 08:57, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

Capital para

Is the |capital= parameter of {{place}} meant to be utilized only in English entries, or can it be used in non-English entries (see ইউক্রেন for example) as well? ·~ dictátor·mundꟾ 16:25, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

Are you sure you the name of the capital is up to date? It's recently widely changed to something unstable in English!

I think the place for looking up the translation of the name of the capital into Bengali is the page for Kiev. And it's already there in the translation table, which gives us a unique place to update if the name changes to a more modern Ukrainian form. --RichardW57m (talk) 15:54, 20 April 2022 (UTC)

Alphabetical Index in Categories

Can we have an alphabetical index for Category:Phoenician_letters, please? I'm joking, but seriously, there are a lot of big categories which could use a finer index like Hebrew has on offer.

I wouldn't take this to the beer parlour because I shouldn't start a thread that I can't finish. So I'm just asking if the point has been raised before? Anything with more than three pages would benefit, unless of course if it is too (computationally) expensive keeping addition indexes around. ApisAzuli (talk) 21:12, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

PS: The wikilink wouldn't display: Category:Phoenician_letters Why is that? ApisAzuli (talk) 21:15, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

@ApisAzuli a category wikilink, by default, adds the page to the category without displaying or linking to it- that's what it's designed to do. You have to put a colon first to make it into a displayed link: [[:Category:Phoenician_letters]]. I fixed your wikilink above, since this page is not an entry for a Phoenician letter. Chuck Entz (talk) 04:34, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

How to add Ỉ, Ỏ, Ủ, and Ỷ in (Letters using hook sign)

I edited Template:mul-script/Latn-list so that |Ả|Ɓ|Ƈ|Ɗ|Ẻ|Ƒ|Ɠ|ɦ|Ƙ|Ɱ|ɱ|Ƥ|ʠ|ʂ|Ƭ|Ʋ|Ⱳ|Ƴ would become |Ả|Ɓ|Ƈ|Ɗ|Ẻ|Ƒ|Ɠ|ɦ|Ỉ|Ƙ|Ɱ|ɱ|Ỏ|Ƥ|ʠ|ʂ|Ƭ|Ủ|Ʋ|Ⱳ|Ƴ|Ỷ . (I added Ỉ, Ỏ, Ủ, and Ỷ.)

Now, (Letters using hook sign): Ảả Ẳẳ Ẩẩ Ɓɓ Ƈƈ Ɗɗ ᶑ Ẻẻ Ƒƒ Ɠɠ ɦ Ƙƙ ᶆ Ɱɱ Ởở Ƥƥ ʠ Ƭƭ Ʋʋ Ửử Ⱳⱳ Ƴƴ is displayed in the entries Ỉ, Ỏ, Ủ, Ỷ, and their lowercase counterparts (except ủ).

However, (Letters using hook sign): Ảả Ẳẳ Ẩẩ Ɓɓ Ƈƈ Ɗɗ ᶑ Ẻẻ Ƒƒ Ɠɠ ɦ Ƙƙ ᶆ Ɱɱ Ởở Ƥƥ ʠ Ƭƭ Ʋʋ Ửử Ⱳⱳ Ƴƴ still does not include Ỉ, Ỏ, Ủ, Ỷ, and their lowercase counterparts. What must be fixed?--Intolerable situation (talk) 03:13, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

The situation is the same, even after editing Template:mul-script/Latn/groups. Now what should I do? Intolerable situation (talk) 10:10, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

You need to add them to HOOK under Template:mul-script/Latn/groups-list. — SURJECTION ^{/ T / C / L /} 12:08, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

I edited Template:mul-script/Latn/groups-list, and now there is the expected result. Thank you! Intolerable situation (talk) 09:54, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

Issues with uploading pronunciations

Hey there folks, so one of the things I like to do most on Wiktionary is record pronunciations for various words. Just a moment ago, I tried to insert my pronunciations into two articles (catfucker and chick with a dick, for reference) and, although there's nothing I did differently with my files nor any mess-ups in my {{}} formatting, the audio file player just isn't appearing. In chick with a dick, which has another audio file, the audio player appears just fine but is absent for mine. Previous entries of mine are unaffected, only the two that I've done today. Does anyone know what could be behind this?

Thank you kindly!

SalomeCzapiewski (talk) 18:49, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

I'm not sure the root cause, but it's not anything specific to Wiktionary or {{audio}}. Even on c:File:En-US-chick with a dick.wav, the audio player doesn't display. My best guess is that it could be related to the WAV format. MediaWiki converts WAV to OGG and MP3, but the file page has this information under the "Transcode status" section: "Download: Not ready. Status: Added to Job queue 13 minutes, 37 seconds ago." There could be a big backlog of files waiting to be converted to OGG. Someone on Commons or Phabricator might be able to tell you more. 70.172.194.25 18:56, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

Thank you, I wonder if this might be the reason. I'll see about asking over on Commons. I haven't had any issues using .wav in the past, almost all my other files are, but thank you for that little tidbit of info too SalomeCzapiewski (talk) 19:05, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

Now the transcode status says "Completed 19:28, 15 March 2022" and the audio plays. I think this confirms my previous guess: the queue must have been busy for some reason. 70.172.194.25 19:52, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

Dystychiphobia

Now, I found a page called dystychiphobia, and I saw that it was deleted for failing to pass the RFV. Now I decided to find sources, and found two sources on archive.org that may or may not count as actual sources.

The two sources (both PDF's):

1. https://download.archiveofourown.org/downloads/447655/nil_Tell_Me_About_Your.pdf?updated_at=1387325965

Mentions dystychiphobia as a word, so idk if it counts.

2. https://download.archiveofourown.org/downloads/5221478/I_Wanna_Get_Outside_Of.pdf

Mentions it in a sentence, but idk if it still counts.

If both these sources do not count, please tell me, and if they do, thank you! Noel The T (talk) 11:22, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

First of all, those are from archiveofourown.org, so it's unclear whether we can count them toward attestation. A recent change to our WT:CFI policy does allow for certain online sources, but it's silent about which websites are valid, instead forcing us to debate them all on a case-by-case basis. And we don't have any precedents to go by. IMO, AO3 is probably at least as "good" as random Tweets, but not as "good" as, say, an e-magazine with editorial oversight. (Goodness being a combination of likelihood of text being preserved, and grammatical quality of text.)

Ignoring the provenance, I think 2 would definitely count as a valid use: "Castiel is a diagnosed OCD suffering from PTSD and agoraphobia, mysophobia, and dystychiphobia." It's being used in a sentence to convey meaning. 1 is less clear, and could certainly be argued to be a mention. It's in a weird zone where I probably wouldn't create an entry if such uses were all I could find, but I personally wouldn't challenge one that already existed either; others may feel differently. 70.172.194.25 16:16, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

How to link common nouns used with capitals in proper nouns?

Hi. In this page https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/H%E1%BB%99i_Tam_%C4%90i%E1%BB%83m#Vietnamese how do I link the words 'Hội' 'Tam' and 'Điểm' to their existing entries as common nouns? New user. TIA. — This unsigned comment was added by Gavinkwhite (talk • contribs).

@Gavinkwhite: Sorry, I've read this a few times and I can't understand the problem. Can you reword this? —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 15:10, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

You want {{head|vi|noun|head=[[hội|Hội]] [[tam|Tam]] [[điểm|Điểm]]}}. You can also link [[tâm điểm|Tam Điểm]], if that's more appropriate (I don't know the semantics), etc. 70.172.194.25 15:15, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

Hi. If you click on the link above, you'll see that 'Hội' & 'Điểm' are red [they have no existing links in Wiktionary] and the word 'Tam' links to the wrong word. However, the lower case words 'hội' & 'điểm' are existing entries. How do I make the connection between the words in upper case and those in lower case that have the same meaning? Presumably when I know how to do this, 'Tam' will also link to the correct Vietnamese entry of 'tam'.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/h%E1%BB%99i

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tam#Vietnamese

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%C4%91i%E1%BB%83m Gavinkwhite (talk) 04:12, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

@Gavinkwhite: Thanks for explaining. I edited per 70.... above. Does this entry refer to "freemasonry" (generically) or "Freemasonry" (the specific group)? —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 04:17, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

Freemasonry, hence the caps in Vietnamese. Can you show me how you did this? What do you mean by 'per 70.... above'. Thanks again. Gavinkwhite (talk) 04:27, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

Oh, I got it:

===Noun===

head|vi|noun|head=hội|Hội tam|Tam điểm|Điểm Gavinkwhite (talk) 04:29, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

@Gavinkwhite: Another user in this thread does not have a username but edits that this person makes are attributed to his IP address, which is "70.172.194.25". The way that I made this fix was the same way that he suggested. This link should show you how the code was changed, let me know if it's still confusing or if you have any questions about Wiktionary at all. I'm very happy to have a new colleague here. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 04:30, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

Appreciate it. Thanks. I had been editing / adding entries for a while myself without logging in, but then ran into this problem which I couldn't find any information about. My interest is Vietnamese so I'll hopefully be busy improving my vocabulary and updating the database. See you around. Gavinkwhite (talk) 04:36, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

As – what part of speech?

What part of speech is the word as in, “The boy is a scalawag, as is his father.”?  --Lambiam 11:25, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

It's a preposition:

the boy.n is.v a scalawag.n , as.p is.v his father.n .

It's clearer written this way with a noun phrase following 'as':

the boy.n is.v a scalawag.n , as.p his father.n is.v .

You can use this tool to parse sentences in English: https://www.link.cs.cmu.edu/link/submit-sentence-4.html Gavinkwhite (talk) 06:47, 21 March 2022 (UTC)

I expect a proposition to have a noun phrase as complement. Are there other examples of <prep> <verb> <subject>? A sentence like "among grows grass" seems wrong to me.  --Lambiam 12:59, 21 March 2022 (UTC)

Hmm, in trying to think if there are counterexamples (of preposition + verb), and considering ere (which can be followed by a verb sometimes, e.g. google books:"ere dies the"), I notice we have some uses of ere as a conjunction, and other very similar uses of ere as a preposition, which is something to ponder some other time (perhaps it's right, perhaps not). For now, that just made me realize that you can pull the as and its clause to the front of the sentence: from Google Books: "As his father before him, he would doubtless be [...]", "As his father before him he served two terms"; "In 1915, just as his father before him, he became Mayor", "And as his father before him he gave it to another young man", and with verb following as "As had his father, he impressed observers" and "As had his father, he opposed [...]" (you can also find "[...], as had his father" as the second half of sentences, of course). I don't know if this actually helps narrow down the POS any. (Maybe the MED is onto something with viewing it as a conjunction?) - -sche (discuss) 22:02, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

Thinking out loud: you can use other forms of be, and do ("these are/were red, as are/were those", "these will explode, as will those", "these taste/tasted sweet, as do/did those"), can you use other verbs directly after as (without fronting the noun) in modern English? "The boy stole, as his father stole" works, "the boy stole, as stole his father" sounds archaic; OTOH, it seems to have been valid in the past. The Middle English Compendium seems(?) to regard this kind of as as a conjunction, although it's hard to be sure as none of their examples exactly match. We seem(?) to treat the somewhat-similar sense of "so" ("the boy is a scalawag, so is his father"; "these tasted sweet, so did those") as an adverb, if it's intended to be covered by the sense "In the same manner or to the same extent as aforementioned"(?). The OED has a long entry I don't have time to comb over (in a quick skim-over, nothing leapt out at me as covering this exact kind of use). - -sche (discuss) 06:16, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

In such sentences the word can be replaced by the combination of a conjunction and an adverb: “The boy is a scalawag, and so is his father.” Leaving out the conjunction we get a comma splice. I'd write a full stop or semicolon then: “The boy is a scalawag; so is his father.”  --Lambiam 23:25, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language does not discuss this use of as, although the text itself uses it several times, such as in the sentence, “Hard and harder are then forms of the same lexeme, as are are and is.”  --Lambiam 15:45, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

Are приходить and прийти verbs of motion or not?

The other verb of motion pages make reference to concrete / abstract categorizations, but these pages do not. Are they considered verbs of motion or not? Thank you — This unsigned comment was added by 46.252.115.100 (talk).

Change page from common noun to proper noun

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/t%E1%BB%A9_linh should have been created as a proper noun per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Holy_Beasts. I have edited the noun entry in the page but the main page is still showing as a common noun. How can I edit the main page itself to initial caps? TIA. Gavinkwhite (talk) 06:35, 21 March 2022 (UTC)

In the source text, use {{vi-propn}} instead of {{vi-noun}}. See for example Mẹo.  --Lambiam 22:45, 21 March 2022 (UTC)

This is the edit that I was enquiring about: PhanAnh123 moved page tứ linh to Tứ Linh. It changes the page url rather than the contents of the entry. How is this operation done? Gavinkwhite (talk) 02:41, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

Moving a page changes the page to be at a different spelling, but it doesn't change anything in the page itself. It really is just changing the spelling from lowercase to uppercase. Usually we only use uppercase for proper nouns, but not always. Besides which, just changing the capitalization doesn't change the header that says "Noun", nor does it change the category that says "Nouns" instead of "Proper nouns", and in many languages you need a different headword template to display the correct links on the headword line, since nouns and proper nouns inflect differently in those languages. Also, it can be used to change the spelling in other ways than capitalization.

As for how to do it: as an admin, I have different menus, but I believe there should be something at the top of the page next to "Edit" and "History" that says "More". If you hover or click on it, a menu with "Move" as an option should drop down. Chuck Entz (talk) 04:48, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

Got it. Just moved https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/T%E1%BB%A9_H%E1%BA%A3i. Thanks. Gavinkwhite (talk) 08:25, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

Reference check for new Vietnamese entry

Hi. First time adding a reference. Would be grateful if someone could check this new entry https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ng%C5%A9_%C3%A2m as it's a dictionary I use a lot and want to get it right from the beginning.

Here's a link to the book itself. https://books.google.com.vn/books?id=HjWOzgEACAAJ&dq=0844283576&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiVpYCHs9n2AhUHy4sBHZR9CakQ6AF6BAgHEAI

I wonder if 'Nguyen' does not provide enough information about the author as it is such a common surname. UPPER CASE formatting is at it appears on the cover. Please advise if not appropriate, and anything else. TIA. Gavinkwhite (talk)

It looks reasonable, although I don't think the uppercase formatting is needed. If you want, I can make a template that will allow you to link to a specific page of the book which will be viewable. 70.172.194.25 09:37, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

Now you should be able to use <ref>{{R:vi:NTC|383|ngũ-âm}}</ref> to generate:

Dinh-hoa Nguyen (1995) “ngũ-âm”, in NTC's Vietnamese–English Dictionary, →ISBN, page 383

Hope that is useful. :] 70.172.194.25 09:59, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

Thanks! Gavinkwhite (talk) 10:02, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

Template:Retired

Hi all, In Wikipedia, there is the Template:Retired template. I wanted to use it here, but found out en.wikt doesn't have it. Are there any similar templates? Borovi4ok (talk) 19:05, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

Our closest equivalent at the moment is {{wikibreak}}. You can set the date on it, which is kind of like retiring. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 19:15, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

Thanks a lot! Borovi4ok (talk) 21:14, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

Questions about the "prosthesis" page

So the prosthesis page has an IPA pronunciation and two listed definitions. The first definition is the medical definition (relating to prosthetic), and the second definition is listed as "(linguistics, prosody) prothesis." The listed IPA pronunciation is very similar to the ones for prothesis (/ˈpɹɒsθəsɪs/ vs. /ˈpɹɒθəsɪs/).

The pronunciation for the first definition is different, something more like /ˌpɹɒsˈθisɪs/, and besides a dictionary.com definition and this book from 1847, all the uses of "prosthesis" I could find used the first definition, or were just copying the wiktionary one.

The pronunciation of the first definition should be added, of course, but I'm not sure if the second definition should even be listed. If anything, it feels like prosthesis (prosody) is a rare alternate spelling of prothesis, not a second definition of prosthesis (medical), but I'm new and don't know much about proper formatting. Could someone more knowledgeable give their opinion? Thanks. WippleStick (talk) 19:50, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

How to change word title?

I copied the wrong thing while making a dictionary entry. I looked for answers and it says "Move the article to the correct title." and I can't figure out where to do that in the edit menu. The word "rfefefder" is supposed to be "atade" if someone can change it, I'll appreciate it, but I'll like to know so I'll know for any future mistakes. Thank you! SkylarArte (talk) 20:40, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

The "Move" button is located under the "More" menu in the upper right to the left of the search bar. Hitting this button brings you to a page where it asks for the new title. Wikt-user123 (talk) 22:26, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

The entry has been moved now. Wikt-user123 (talk) 22:47, 26 March 2022 (UTC)