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July 2019

鎖具足#Japanese

Latest comment: 5 years ago15 comments2 people in discussion

Term added by Mare-Silverus (talk • contribs), who either is, or is somehow related to, our long-term UK anon who adds lots of problematic Japanese terms.

I think this is SOP, as simply 鎖 (kusari, “chain”) + 具足 (gusoku, “armor”), but I'd like to get input from others. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 19:59, 22 July 2019 (UTC)Reply

Perhaps we should create 具足 before deleting this. Also, is the usual English term not chain mail? --Lambiam 07:44, 23 July 2019 (UTC)Reply

Japanese 具足 created. This is an old term cited first all the way back to 722, but despite its age and Chinese-derived reading, I can't find evidence of a borrowing from Middle Chinese. My resources for Chinese are limited, so I'd appreciate it if any more-Chinese-savvy editors could have a look at the etymology.

Re: English chain mail, @Lambiam, were you commenting on the use of alt spelling chainmail at the 鎖具足#Japanese entry? If instead you were suggesting non-SOP-ness on the basis of the English term mail not corresponding exactly to 具足 (gusoku, “armor”), I would counter by suggesting that someone fluent in English would understand that mail in the context of the armaments of centuries past is broadly equivalent to armor on the one hand, and on the other, that someone fluent in Japanese and familiar with the same contexts would choose the term 鎖帷子 (kusari katabira) instead, as indeed we see at the JA WP article ja:w:鎖帷子. In terms of raw Google hits (granted, only a very rough measure, but still), google:"鎖帷子" "は" (adding the "は" to filter for Japanese) gets us 4.8M hits, while google:"鎖具足" "は" gets only 4.3K. At best, this would be an uncommon synonym, but I argue that it's not an integral enough term to even warrant an entry. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 23:41, 8 February 2021 (UTC)Reply

@Eiríkr— I was commenting on the senses listed for 鎖 (kusari), which do not include any of the synonyms “mail”, “chain mail” or ”chainmail”. In English, just “chain” does not have the sense of “chain mail”; for someone not familiar with the meaning (and possibly also not with medieval armour), trying to figure it out from the literal translation 鎖+具足 = “chain”+“armour” might not work too well. I do not know if 鎖 by itself can have the sense of “mail”, or that this requires the combination 鎖具足. If the former, that sense should be added. If the latter, I am not convinced we have an SOP here. --Lambiam 01:39, 9 February 2021 (UTC)Reply

@Lambiam, I'm curious about your reasoning. You state, "the senses listed for 鎖 (kusari), which do not include any of the synonyms “mail”, “chain mail” or ”chainmail”" -- no, they do not. For that matter, neither does English chain?

Japanese 鎖 (kusari) generally just means chain. Indeed, so far as I know, any "armor" sense for English chain on its own only comes about from use of this term as a shortening of chain mail, so I'm a bit confused why you think Japanese 鎖 (kusari) needs to have some kind of "armor" sense for Japanese 鎖具足 (kusari gusoku) to not be an SOP? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 02:29, 9 February 2021 (UTC)Reply

@Eiríkr— My reasoning is very simplistic. If I see that the meaning of compound noun X+Y, where X modifies Y, is rendered in English as A+B, then I expect that one of the meanings of X is A and one of the meanings of Y is B. So when there is a claim that this is a sum of parts (which I can see is the case for A+B), then I expect that an astute language learner can understand from the context which combination of meanings applies. Application of this simplistic formula in the hope of getting from 鎖+具足 to “chainmail”+“armour” requires 鎖 → “chainmail” and 具足 → “armour”. Chainmail armour, to me, is armour fashioned of chainmail. The notion of “mail” as a quasi-fabric used to fashion armour is absent from either of the components 鎖 and 具足, but paramount in their compound 鎖具足. So, apparently, 鎖具足 ≠ 鎖+具足. --Lambiam 10:22, 9 February 2021 (UTC)Reply

@Lambiam: Ah, I see now where we have our disjuncture. I perceive English mail in this context as synonymous with armor (technically, a hyponym). Thus, English chain mail = chain + mail = chain + armor, which I view as analogous to 鎖 (kusari, “chain”) + 具足 (gusoku, “armor”). The usage of English mail in armor contexts is very limited, with (I think) only three such collocations allowed: chain mail, plate mail, scale mail. The more common senses of English mail could also arguably make the armor-related collocations more distinct lexically: we're not talking about sending these things via post, for instance. The usage of Japanese 具足 (gusoku) is not limited in this way, and I think this makes the collocation of kusari ("chain") + gusoku ("armor") less of an integral lexical item, and more of an SOP.

I'd also like to draw your attention back to the fact that English chain mail is not glossed as Japanese 鎖具足 (kusari gusoku) in any reference I've encountered -- the term 鎖帷子 (kusari katabira) is used instead. In fact, there is no page at ja:w:鎖具足 (Kusari gusoku), and the article at ja:w:鎖帷子 (Kusari katabira) contains zero instances of the term 具足 (gusoku). In addition, the JA WP article links through to the EN WP article at w:Chain_mail and vice versa. See also bilingual entries for "chain mail" at Eijiro and Weblio, glossing this in Japanese as 鎖帷子 (kusari katabira). See also the lack of any entries for 鎖具足 (kusari gusoku) at Eijiro, Weblio, and monolingual dictionary and encyclopedia aggregator Kotobank. For that matter, Weblio's page amusingly suggests that kusari gusoku might equate instead to "chain furniture". :) ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 19:47, 9 February 2021 (UTC)Reply

How chain mail is glossed in Japanese texts is (IMO) not relevant to the present issue. (This might have some limited relevance if the issue is whether the term can be verified.) I am not a native English speaker; I have always understood mail to refer primarily to the material, like one can say that early armour was “made from mail ”.^[1] Note that, whereas armour has a countable sense, chain mail is uncountable. A medieval knight may have been “wearing an armour”,^[2] but not _*“a chain mail”. In French, the term maille from which the English term is derived, is just a single link; you can combine a lot to make a cotte de mailles. Two centuries ago the term chain armour would have been readily understood,^[3], but today this is less obviously so.^[4] On Wikipedia, the article Kusari (Japanese mail armour) states: “Kusari gusoku (chain armour)(鎖具足) is the Japanese term for mail armour. Kusari is a type of armour used by the samurai class and their retainers in feudal Japan. When the word kusari is used in conjunction with an armoured item it usually means that the kusari makes up the majority of the armour defence.” This is supported by a citation to a book entitled A Glossary of the Construction, Decoration and Use of Arms and Armor: In All Countries and in All Times that mentions kusari gama, kusari gote, kusari kabuto, kusari katabira, kusari-kiahan, kusari sode, kusari tachi, kusari toji, kusari wakabiki, kusari-zukin. It seems reasonable (to me) to include a definition of the kind “(of armour) chain mail”. --Lambiam 21:14, 9 February 2021 (UTC)Reply

@Lambiam: The English Wikipedia's articles related to Japan are, far too often, a cesspit of pop-culture misunderstandings and imaginings about Japan. I generally avoid wading in on Wikipedia, as I simply don't have the time to simultaneously manage the morons while also assiduously citing every minor detail.

That particular article is one such example: the very first sentence in that article is plainly, patently wrong. What's more, the referenced work never uses the combined term kusari gusoku. Monolingual sources never mention armor or arms in definitions of the term 鎖 (kusari, “chain”), and given my own subjective understanding of the term and its uses, I'm not sure it makes sense to add any such sense to our entry. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 21:32, 9 February 2021 (UTC)Reply

But what about the terms kusari gama, ..., kusari-zukin listed in the cited glossary. Are these not romanizations of attestable Japanese terms of art, such as 鎖帷子? --Lambiam 21:50, 9 February 2021 (UTC)Reply

@Lambiam: Sure. Here's a brief breakdown to provide a bit more detail and context.

鎖帷子 (kusari katabira) is literally 鎖 (kusari, “chain”) + 帷子 (katabira, “single-layer kimono”, literally “kata "single, one part of a pair", in reference to the usual double layering of a kimono + hira "flat thing" = "layer"”). Strictly speaking, 鎖帷子 (kusari katabira) refers to a single layer of chain mail used as a shirt-like or robe-like garment covering the upper body. This is arguably the single most common application of the material called chain mail in English, which I suspect is why bilingual sources tend to relate these two terms. The material itself, as a sheet of linked metal loops, is often referred to using the English-derived term チェーンメール (chēn mēru). Some dictionary entries will clarify that the item of armor is kusari katabira, and the material is chēn mēru, as indeed we see in the two sense lines at the Eijiro entry for "chain mail".
鎖鎌 (kusari-gama) is literally 鎖 (kusari, “chain”) + 鎌 (kama, “sickle, scythe”). This is a weapon consisting of a short-bladed sickle with a long chain extending from the base of the handle. See the image at ja:w:鎖鎌, and more content in English at w:Kusarigama.
鎖頭巾 (kusari zukin) is literally 鎖 (kusari, “chain”) + 頭巾 (zukin, “hood”, literally “head + cloth”). See also the images at google:"鎖頭巾". Lemmings-wise, monolingual JA sources do not treat this as a single term.

Looking further at the other kusari items in that index view:

Kusari Gote: 鎖篭手 (kusari-gote, literally “chain + gauntlet”)
Kusari Kiahan: not a Japanese term, presumably a mistake for kusari kyahan → 鎖脚絆 (kusari kyahan, literally “chain + leggings, gaiters”), referring to something like chain-mail greaves, only presumably also covering the back of the lower leg, not just the shin.
Kusari Sode 鎖袖 (kusari sode, literally “chain + sleeve”). Lemmings-wise, monolingual Japanese sources do not treat this as a single lexical term.
Kusari Toji: I'm really not sure what this is supposed to refer to. The toji element is presumably 綴じ (toji, “binding, fastening”)? If so, this doesn't seem to be any specific item of armor.
Kusari Wakibiki: 鎖脇引き (kusari wakibiki, literally “chain + armpit-pulling”), from the way the material is pulled or drawn across the gap between the other parts of the armor: a piece of gousset. Lemmings-wise, monolingual Japanese sources do not treat this as a single lexical term.

I note a few other items listed in that index view, things like Krug, Kurdaitcha, and Kurtani, that cannot be Japanese terms. Given the instance of Kusari Kiahan, I am left uncertain if these are misspellings, or simply non-Japanese terms.

Anyway, HTH! ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 23:32, 9 February 2021 (UTC)Reply

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘The book is supposed to be a glossary for all countries, so it should not be a surprise to find Romanizations of Japanese terms in an alphabetical list in the company of non-Japanese terms.

Case in point. Imagine someone with a beginner’s level of Japanese who comes across the term 「鎖頭巾」 in a context where the meaning is not at all clear (such as an ad offering an antique 鎖頭巾 for sale). Since she cannot find the term in Wiktionary, she assumes it is a sum of parts, and looks up its components: 鎖 = “chain”; 頭巾 = “wimple, hood, gorget”. In her understanding of the term “chain”, it is a linear sequence of links. Neither ”chain wimple” nor “chain hood” make any sense to her, but after looking up the unfamiliar term “gorget” and seeing the image, she guesses that “chain gorget” could be a gorget worn on a chain, just like a “chain watch” is a watch on a chain. Is there a plausible way she could have discovered that in this combination 「鎖」implied an item made from mail? --Lambiam 22:14, 10 February 2021 (UTC)Reply

@Lambiam: (after edit conflict)

... Where do you get the wimple or gorget senses for 頭巾 (zukin)? Those aren't in our entries. I can kinda see where wimple might come from, as the core meaning of the JA term is literally "head + cloth", and that's at least the right ballpark. But gorget is just wrong as a translation for 頭巾. The expected Japanese term is 喉当て (nodo-ate, literally “throat + putting, applying, placing-against”).

If you got kusari zukin and its mistranslation of "gorget" from the linked glossary by George Cameron Stone, I'm mystified -- I can't find any instances of zukin at all in that book, kusari or otherwise.

For the expected senses of 鎖 (kusari, “chain”) + 頭巾 (zukin, “hood, head covering”), I wouldn't expect as much potential for confusion as you suggest. For example, google:"chain hood" comes right up with pictures of the expected hood made of chain. Similarly, google:"chain shirt" and google:"chain gloves" come right up with relevant armor-related images, and even the more unusual google:"chain sleeves" and google:"chain leggings" find armor-related hits within the first page. :)

Some collocation-specific senses must be understood from context, even though the collocations themselves might not be lexical. Consider white crane. This could be a large white bird that inhabits wetlands, or it might be a white piece of construction equipment used to lift things. The term crane here is polysemic, but that doesn't necessitate that collocations using different senses of crane are necessarily lexical items unto themselves. So it is with 鎖 (kusari) -- though arguably even to a lesser extent than crane, since the armor and non-armor senses for 鎖 (kusari) are still about "loops of metal chained together". ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 00:49, 11 February 2021 (UTC)Reply

Ah, re: the erroneous gorget sense at ずきん, that is a mistake apparently entered when that page was created, which has not been replicated at the lemma entry at 頭巾#Japanese. I'm about to correct the ずきん entry. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 00:54, 11 February 2021 (UTC)Reply

If chain hood can legitimately mean “hood fashioned of mail” (as an instance of, more generally, chain NP meaning “NP fashioned of mail”, then a sense is missing at English chain. --Lambiam 09:22, 11 February 2021 (UTC)Reply

June 2020

死人#Adverb

Latest comment: 5 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion

Chinese. I believe this is best analyzed as [[VERB-死]-人], and 人 "someone" can be replaced freely with "I", "you", etc. The usage examples should be moved to 死. —Suzukaze-c (talk) 05:18, 20 June 2020 (UTC)Reply

Comment: if we do keep this, I think it should be merge with the Gan sense under pronunciation 2. While it's analyzable as above, it seems to be fossilized as a kind of intensifier (at least in certain varieties). It's in some dictionaries, such as 南昌方言詞典 and 臺灣閩南語常用詞辭典. I'm leaning on the keep side, but I'm not sure. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 06:06, 20 June 2020 (UTC)Reply

Actually, after some thought, the two meanings seem to be different depending on the verb/adjective. 南昌方言詞典 defines it as "用在動詞或形容詞後，表示令人非常（高興、生氣、難受等）" and lists 熱～, 笑～, 氣～, 煩～, 急～ and 冷～ as examples. To me, these belong to the definition that is being rfd-ed. @Mar vin kaiser who added the Gan sense recently. 臺灣閩南語常用詞辭典 defines it as "置於動詞之後，用來表示「非常……」、「很……」的意思" and lists 驚死人 and 貴死人 as examples. 驚死人 could be interpreted as the rfd-ed definition, but 貴死人 is harder to interpret as such. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 06:24, 20 June 2020 (UTC)Reply

September 2020

악성비루스

Latest comment: 2 years ago9 comments8 people in discussion

This just means "the malign virus" in Korean. In this article we can see that North Korea has also called Ebola and MERS the "malign virus". Delete as sum of parts.--Karaeng Matoaya (talk) 07:07, 17 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

And since Korean has no definite article, it may just as well mean “a malign virus”, which these viruses certainly are in the medical sense of “harmful, potentially lethal”. --Lambiam 21:51, 17 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

If the gloss is correct, though, 악성비루스 refers not to the virus SARS-CoV-2 but to the disease COVID-19, which would technically make it not SOP anymore. —Mahāgaja · talk 05:36, 18 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

@Mahagaja: There's no actual evidence that the gloss is correct. The creator is not a native speaker, and the actual NK statement in late July (quoted here) that presumably prompted this creation was about "a defector to South Korea suspected to have been infected by the 'malign virus'" ("악성 비루스에 감염된 것으로 의심되는 월남도주자"). The word used here, 감염 (gamyeom), is usually for viruses and not diseases.--Karaeng Matoaya (talk) 08:32, 18 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

Delete. — LoutK (talk) 02:19, 17 January 2021 (UTC)Reply
Question: Could the use of this term be considered a euphemism? MSG17 (talk) 01:25, 8 December 2021 (UTC)Reply

Agree with Mahagaja. If the provided definition is correct, it is obviously not a SOP. This seems more like a verification issue to me. Fytcha (talk) 00:27, 17 December 2021 (UTC)Reply

Delete. It is a SOP. KCNA (in June 18, 2015 [5]) was also called "MERS", "SARS" and "Ebola virus" as "악성비루스" in 2015. And Choson Sinbo (in October 19, 2017) and Rodong Sinmun (in December 26. 2018) were also called "스툭스네트" (stuxnet) as "악성비루스" during 2017–18. Dubukimchi (talk) 11:28, 10 November 2023 (UTC)Reply
If I'm understanding correctly, it's just a descriptor for Covid (most recently), and not a name for it. In that case it would be SOP. Ultimateria (talk) 04:15, 16 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

January 2021

ポケットモンスター

Latest comment: 1 year ago8 comments7 people in discussion

Discussion moved from Wiktionary:Requests for verification/Non-English.

Continuing discussion from RFV to RFD per “WT:BRAND is for RFD, not RFV, take it there.” — Mnemosientje. J3133 (talk) 14:09, 19 January 2021 (UTC)Reply

WT:BRAND states: "A brand name for a product or service should be included if it has entered the lexicon." So the question is, can it be verified that 「ポケットモンスター」 has entered the Japanese lexicon. (For English Pokémon it appears that is has.^{[6][7][8][9][10][11]}) Should verification that there are uses attesting that a term has entered the lexicon not be handled at RfV? --Lambiam 00:18, 20 January 2021 (UTC)Reply

WT:BRAND is for WT:RFV and not for WT:RFD. (As per WT:BRAND 3 special cites are needed and not just any cites; WT:RFV is about finding and adding cites.) The closure of the RFV obviously was done in error. --2003:DE:372F:4522:88A8:41EC:CDF6:D857 20:06, 23 January 2021 (UTC)Reply

Pinging @Mnemosientje who closed the RFV. J3133 (talk) 09:51, 24 January 2021 (UTC)Reply

WT:RFV states that the RFV pages are for "disputing the existence of terms or senses", and to test whether something meets the attestation criterion at the WT:ATTEST header of WT:CFI. So I tend to heap everything that's not disputing the existence of a word into RFD. I can see how the wording of WT:BRAND can make it seem like a "verification" matter and thus be put under RFV, it's honestly open to interpretation and I don't have very strong feelings on the matter. The closure, though, was not in error: people had not been responding for two years (which seemed a bit ridiculous) and I could've just closed it as unresolved (as nobody seemed to care enough to solve it), which would've circumvented this whole discussion. If someone wants to solve the issue of this word meeting WT:BRAND (be it here or at RFD), go ahead, as long as it actually gets taken care of and doesn't sit unanswered for another 2 years. — Mnemosientje (t · c) 12:52, 24 January 2021 (UTC)Reply

@Mnemosientje I would very much argue that WT:BRAND is an RFV matter, since it is about finding attestation of uses that meet WT:BRAND. As far as I can tell, that is also the current practice. — sur jec tion ⟨??⟩ 19:32, 14 February 2021 (UTC)Reply

Keep, move to WT:RFVN. --幽霊四 (talk) 23:55, 5 February 2021 (UTC)Reply

keep Shlyst (talk) 17:33, 13 February 2025 (UTC)Reply

KCIA

Latest comment: 5 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Not a Korean word. The actual Korean abbreviation is 중정 (Jungjeong).--Karaeng Matoaya (talk) 04:30, 24 January 2021 (UTC)Reply

Keep, move to WT:RFVN. --幽霊四 (talk) 23:53, 5 February 2021 (UTC)Reply

今日実子

Latest comment: 9 months ago20 comments6 people in discussion

Probably part of the Talk:真実和 series of nonsense. —Suzukaze-c (talk) 09:31, 26 January 2021 (UTC)Reply

Same page author, 4RM0 (talk • contribs), same time-frame, in mid-2008. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 21:29, 26 January 2021 (UTC)Reply

After puzzling over another highly suspicious set of Japanese "female names" with other people, I've come to the conclusion that these websites make up kanji spellings by combining known names and kanji readings for the less imaginative. Reading 李 as い is only explainable as the Korean surname, and surely would not appear in someone's given name. —Suzukaze-c (talk) 21:04, 28 October 2021 (UTC)Reply

https://web.archive.org/web/20070516205541/http://www.dd.iij4u.or.jp/~ume20/f_name/index.html

The source of all evil? —Suzukaze-c (talk) 21:19, 28 October 2021 (UTC)Reply

I've deleted 今日実子 (Kyōmiko) as bogus. google:"今日実子さん" finds all of one hit, which is just a list of potential feminine given names -- of what provenance, I have no idea. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 23:24, 17 March 2022 (UTC)Reply

吾実理

—Suzukaze-c (talk) 06:28, 12 October 2021 (UTC)Reply

Special:Contributions/4RM0

this is stupid. can we just delete all of these female given names? —Suzukaze-c (talk) 06:28, 12 October 2021 (UTC)Reply

No particular opposition from me. I might go so far as to suggest a quick Google search, and immediately deleting anything that doesn't return hits. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 21:50, 14 October 2021 (UTC)Reply

FWIW, I just searched as follows for one such spelling:

google:"吾実理" "は" -glosbe -namedic -weblio -name -enamae -wiki

That still returns hits, but only 4 of them, and all of these four are mentions and not actual cases of people with this name. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 21:55, 14 October 2021 (UTC)Reply

Special:Contributions/72.82.45.69, Special:Contributions/72.82.47.169

Blindly believing in red links. —Suzukaze-c (talk) 21:01, 28 October 2021 (UTC)Reply

Apparently deleted. —Fish bowl (talk) 00:29, 14 March 2022 (UTC)Reply

Special:Contributions/Shāntián Tàiláng

—Suzukaze-c (talk) 21:19, 28 October 2021 (UTC)Reply

The "edit summary search" is apparently broken, not returning more than one page of results. —Fish bowl (talk) 00:29, 14 March 2022 (UTC)Reply

Special:Contributions/71.246.148.192

—Suzukaze-c (talk) 22:39, 20 November 2021 (UTC)Reply

It appears that 花観 is a verifiable female name. [14][15] It is also a noun. (I added it to the entry.) Whym (talk) 02:26, 16 August 2025 (UTC)Reply

Special:Contributions/Tim Euler

—Fish bowl (talk) 21:47, 18 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

@Surjection, Fish bowl, Eirikr: Any objections if I go ahead and mass delete + mass revert Tim Euler? His German edits were as clueless as always (I actually already suspected it was him on the 13th: [16]) so I have little faith in his edits in other languages. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 22:04, 18 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

@Fytcha: I have no objection. —Fish bowl (talk) 00:18, 19 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

No, by all means go ahead. — SURJECTION ^{/ T / C / L /} 05:39, 19 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

Done. I spared 悼齔, 卵巢炎, תיקון because other editors have edited them in the meantime. FYI @Justinrleung. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 12:38, 19 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

기 때문이다

Latest comment: 5 years ago4 comments2 people in discussion

@Wise Bridges Fool Walls, I think it's a sum of parts: 기 (gi, verbal nominalizer) + 때문 (ttaemun, “because”, bound noun following a noun to mark it as a cause) + 이다 (ida, “it is”) > "it is because..."--Karaeng Matoaya (talk) 05:52, 30 January 2021 (UTC)Reply

기 때문에

As above.--Karaeng Matoaya (talk) 05:53, 30 January 2021 (UTC)Reply

I will add that I think both should be redirected to 때문 (ttaemun).--Karaeng Matoaya (talk) 05:58, 30 January 2021 (UTC)Reply

@Karaeng Matoaya: Honestly, I thought redirects might be more appropriate, but I was not sure. Thank you for letting me know.-—Wise Bridges Fools Walls (talk) 20:43, 30 January 2021 (UTC)Reply

April 2021

Japanese ブルータス、お前もか

Latest comment: 4 years ago4 comments4 people in discussion

We have a very prolific anon from Vietnam, likely Baka Fumiko. This is one entry created by that anon.

I don't dispute that this is attestable. I question whether this is dictionary material. @TAKASUGI Shinji, Suzukaze-c, Huhu9001, Alves9, Dine2016, any other JA editors, what is your sense? Is this more widely used than I'm aware, with any overtones or nuances that might point to this meriting a dictionary entry? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 03:32, 7 April 2021 (UTC)Reply

Delete. It’s not a fixed phrase but rather a reference. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 13:02, 7 April 2021 (UTC)Reply
Neutral —Suzukaze-c (talk) 23:23, 12 April 2021 (UTC)Reply
Comment. It or the variant ブルータスよ is in Daijisen, Daijirin, Kōjien, and various kotowaza references. The first two even say 用いられる. BRPXQZME (talk) 04:42, 16 August 2021 (UTC)Reply

January 2022

正八胞体

Latest comment: 2 months ago8 comments6 people in discussion

Merely 5 results total at https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=%22正八胞体%22, accompanied in 4/5 results with similar constructions like 正多胞体正五胞体正十六胞体正六百胞体, which seems to make this an unremarkable sum of parts.

@Binarystep —Fish bowl (talk) 01:00, 7 January 2022 (UTC)Reply

We document English equivalents like 5-cell, 8-cell, 16-cell, 24-cell, 120-cell, 600-cell, and so on without considering them sum of parts, I don't see why the Japanese terms should be treated differently. Binarystep (talk) 01:35, 7 January 2022 (UTC)Reply

I think they're all also SOP by sense 19 of cell. WT:SOP: "Idiomaticity rules apply to hyphenated compounds in the same way as to spaced phrases." — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 02:23, 7 January 2022 (UTC)Reply

I'd argue that 8-cell isn't SOP due to the fact that most people wouldn't automatically picture a tesseract when they hear the word, even if they knew the relevant definition of cell. Besides, where do we draw the line between SOP and common formulas used to construct new terms? You could easily make a convincing argument that common prefixes like anti- and non- should fall under SOP, along with chemical formulas like trichloromethane (if anything, chemical formulas are quite literally "sum of parts").

Point is, I think we should at least consider the context of how words are used. All of the "X-cell" entries (and any translations thereof) are legitimate mathematical terms, and I think removing them would do more harm than good. There's a difference between a generic term like "wooden door" and technical jargon that has zero meaning outside a specific context. Binarystep (talk) 02:52, 7 January 2022 (UTC)Reply

Another way to argue would be to point out that, since pentachoron etc. are obviously inclusion-worthy, it would be ridiculous to exclude their much more commonly used n-cell synonyms, especially since deletion of 5-cell entails the removal thereof in the article pentachoron. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 03:20, 7 January 2022 (UTC)Reply

Without the articles for 正八胞体 and its siblings, I would have no way to find out what it means, because the individual article for 胞 doesn’t have the meaning “cell (in 4-dimensional geometry)”, only “cell (in biology)”. The articles also provide translation entries for the English articles for “8-cell” and its siblings, as well as “tesseract”. If these are to be deleted, at the very least there should be a redirect added to 多胞体 “polytope (in 4D geometry)”.

122.213.236.124 02:22, 19 December 2023 (UTC)Reply

keep Shlyst (talk) 17:33, 13 February 2025 (UTC)Reply

keep Maraschino Cherry (talk) 13:44, 25 March 2026 (UTC)Reply

March 2022

実行に移す

Latest comment: 1 year ago3 comments3 people in discussion

Japanese.

# [[put into effect]], [[put into practice]]

Perhaps sum of parts? —Fish bowl (talk) 20:24, 17 March 2022 (UTC)Reply

Possibly. I note that various other things (both physical and abstract) can come before the に (ni): google:"に移す"

Definitely worth a usex and / or usage note at 移す. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 23:13, 17 March 2022 (UTC)Reply

keep Shlyst (talk) 17:32, 13 February 2025 (UTC)Reply

電話をかける

Latest comment: 1 year ago6 comments5 people in discussion

Japanese.

===Etymology===
{{ja-l|電話}} (''telephone'') + {{ja-l|を}} + {{ja-l|かける}} ([[hiragana]] spelling of {{ja-l|掛ける}}, ''to speak'', ''to call out'')

===Verb===
{{ja-verb|でんわ を かける}}

# to [[call]] someone over the [[telephone]]

====Synonyms====
* {{ja-r|電%話する|でん%わ　する}}
* (''uncommon'') {{ja-r|架%電|か%でん}}: a [[call]]

====Antonyms====
* {{ja-r|電%話を切る|でん%わ　を　きる}}: to [[hang up]] the [[phone]]

====Related terms====
* (''intransitive'') {{ja-r|電%話がかかる|でん%わ が かかる}}:
* {{ja-r|電%話|でん%わ}}: [[telephone]]
* {{ja-r|電%話に出る|でん%わ に でる}}: to [[answer]] the [[phone]]

Perhaps sum of parts? Not in monolingual dictionaries. —Fish bowl (talk) 20:29, 17 March 2022 (UTC)Reply

電話を切る

===Etymology===
From {{m|ja|電話||telephone|tr=denwa}} + {{m|ja|を|pos=a grammatical marker following the direct object|tr=o}} + {{m|ja|切る||to disconnect, to hang up; to cut|tr=kiru}}. Literally meaning "to hang up the phone" or to "disconnect or cut the phone".

===Verb===
{{ja-verb|でんわ を きる|type=1}}

# to [[hang up]], to [[terminate]] a [[phonecall]]

====Conjugation====
{{ja-go-ru|でんわ を き}}

Perhaps sum of parts? Not in monolingual dictionaries. —Fish bowl (talk) 20:45, 17 March 2022 (UTC)Reply

Both of these might count as SOP, but the idiomatic (or at least non-obvious) use of the verbs makes me unsure.

If these entries are removed, the collocations should definitely be included as usexes on the relevant entries (at least the verbs, possibly the noun as well). ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 23:23, 17 March 2022 (UTC)Reply

To me, both terms seem idiomatic, so I vote keep. Compare analogous Korean 전화를 걸다 (jeonhwareul geolda, “to telephone”) and (just created by me) Korean 전화를 끊다 (jeonhwareul kkeunta, “to hang up”).--Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 01:08, 30 May 2022 (UTC)Reply

Leaning delete as SOP, though not super strongly. If deleted, these should definitely be added as {{coi}} to both the noun as well as the verbs entries. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 11:45, 24 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

keep Shlyst (talk) 17:32, 13 February 2025 (UTC)Reply

ワープロソフト

Latest comment: 1 year ago5 comments5 people in discussion

Japanese. Sum of parts, ワープロ "word processor" + the explanatory qualifier ソフト "software". —Fish bowl (talk) 09:26, 28 March 2022 (UTC)Reply

SOP. Delete. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 19:30, 4 April 2022 (UTC)Reply

Delete. Binarystep (talk) 06:29, 13 May 2024 (UTC)Reply

Looks SOP but it's in 大辞林. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 11:49, 24 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

keep Shlyst (talk) 17:34, 13 February 2025 (UTC)Reply

May 2022

ミル

Latest comment: 1 year ago4 comments4 people in discussion

Japanese.

===Etymology===
Borrowed from {{bor|ja|en|mill}}, from {{m|en|Millstone}}, a ''{{w|Magic: The Gathering}}'' card with a similar effect.

===Noun===
{{ja-noun}}

# {{lb|ja|Hearthstone}} A strategy centered on depleting the opponent's deck.

====Derived terms====
* {{l|ja|ミルウォーロック}}
* {{l|ja|ミルウォリアー}}
* {{l|ja|ミルデッキ}}
* {{l|ja|ミルドルイド}}, {{l|ja|ミルドル}}
* {{l|ja|ミルローグ}}

Game-specific official jargon, WT:FICTION? —Fish bowl (talk) 10:29, 25 May 2022 (UTC)Reply

Is it official jargon? From the info provided on the page, I assumed it was a fandom term. Binarystep (talk) 21:14, 27 May 2022 (UTC)Reply

Crikey, what a dog's breakfast. The entry misses the perfectly cromulent senses of English surname Mill, or the mil that is one thousandth of an inch, or the ミル (miru) that is the common name for Codium, a kind of edible seaweed, or the borrowing of English mill that appears in various borrowed compounds, such as コーヒーミル (kōhī miru, “coffee mill”).

No time at the moment to dive in and fix the entry. Suffice it to say that Etym 1 as it currently stands must likely be deleted due to WT:FICTION. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 04:59, 19 June 2022 (UTC)Reply

I'm only familiar with this term in English, not Japanese, but in English it refers to a game mechanic that exists in multiple CCGs. If the Japanese word is used the same way, I think it should obviously be kept. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 11:56, 24 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

July 2022

禮拜儀式

Latest comment: 3 years ago7 comments3 people in discussion

Chinese. SoP: 禮拜 "religious service" + 儀式 "ritual". — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 03:31, 30 July 2022 (UTC)Reply

Is this limited to Christianity in Chinese? Theknightwho (talk) 16:41, 30 July 2022 (UTC)Reply

@Theknightwho: No, it could also be used for Islam, for example. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 22:04, 31 July 2022 (UTC)Reply

I think it probably does pass WT:PRIOR, though. The Christian liturgy is a well-defined concept. Theknightwho (talk) 14:36, 15 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

@Theknightwho: I don't see how it would have any more specific meaning than the sum of its parts. Liturgy can look very different across different branches of Christianity. Also, 禮拜的儀式 is also commonly attested, which suggests that the "compound" isn't that tight. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 14:33, 16 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

Pinging @Mar vin kaiser as the entry creator. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 05:59, 30 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

@Justinrleung: I think the reason why I added this is because it can be said as the equivalent of the English word "liturgy" which itself can be used for Islam and Buddhism (Islamic liturgy and Buddhist liturgy). I think the meaning of 禮儀 is broad enough (it could mean etiquette? ceremony?) that it would be useful and reasonable to have this entry remain to provide people the technical term in Chinese for "liturgy". --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 12:59, 30 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

August 2022

Japanese entries by User:Japanfreak0

Latest comment: 1 year ago33 comments6 people in discussion

I've gone through some of their contributions. Most (all?) of this appears to be copy-paste from some other bilingual JA→EN dictionary, which includes lots of things that we would treat as SOP. There's the occasional nugget of validity in there, but most of the entries they've created are problematic. I've flat-out deleted a small handful of them as patently obvious phrasal SOP, and I've listed a few others below. I don't have time to fully vet the rest of their contributions, however, so I'd like to ask the rest of us to pitch in. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 23:20, 5 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

keep, except maybe 一時帰休制 Shlyst (talk) 17:43, 13 February 2025 (UTC)Reply

一時会計監査人#Japanese

SOP:

一時 (ichiji, “temporary, provisional”)
会計 (kaikei, “[financial] accounting”)
監査人 (kansanin, “auditor”)

Pinging entry creator @Japanfreak0. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 17:43, 5 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

Delete Daniel.z.tg (talk) 23:41, 18 May 2023 (UTC)Reply
Delete. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 12:21, 24 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

一時休業#Japanese

SOP.

一時 (ichiji, “temporary, provisional”)
休業 (kyūgyō, “work suspension; shutdown; holiday”)

Pinging entry creator @Japanfreak0. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 17:45, 5 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

Delete Daniel.z.tg (talk) 23:41, 18 May 2023 (UTC)Reply
Delete. Suitable for {{coi}} though. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 12:21, 24 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

一時帰休#Japanese

SOP.

一時 (ichiji, “temporary, provisional”)
帰休 (kikyū, “layoff, furlough”)

Pinging entry creator @Japanfreak0. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 17:50, 5 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

Delete Daniel.z.tg (talk) 23:41, 18 May 2023 (UTC)Reply
Leaning towards keep. It's also in DJR. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 12:21, 24 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

一時帰休制#Japanese

SOP.

一時 (ichiji, “temporary, provisional”)
帰休 (kikyū, “layoff, furlough”)
制 (sei, “system”)

Pinging entry creator @Japanfreak0. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 17:52, 5 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

Delete Daniel.z.tg (talk) 23:41, 18 May 2023 (UTC)Reply
Delete. Suitable for {{coi}} though. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 12:21, 24 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

一時預かり#Japanese

SOP.

一時 (ichiji, “temporary, provisional”)
預かり (azukari, “custody; checking, as in a coat check or luggage check; taking something or someone into one's care from someone else”)

Pinging entry creator @Japanfreak0. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 17:49, 5 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

Delete States that this term is especially used with baggage. Daniel.z.tg (talk) 23:41, 18 May 2023 (UTC)Reply
Neutral. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 12:21, 24 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

一時預け#Japanese

Also SOP, just using the related verb stem 預け (azuke, “putting something or someone in someone else's care”) to express the other side of the action (putting into care, as opposed to taking into care). ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 18:05, 5 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

Weak Keep States that this term is especially used with baggage. Daniel.z.tg (talk) 23:41, 18 May 2023 (UTC)Reply
Neutral. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 12:21, 24 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

一時預かり証#Japanese

Meh, might be valid, looks borderline SOP to me.

一時 (ichiji, “temporary, provisional”)
預かり (azukari, “custody; checking, as in a coat check or luggage check; taking something or someone into one's care from someone else”)
証 (shō, “certificate”)

→ "claim check"

If this is deemed not SOP, the entry needs cleanup -- Japanfreak0 goofed on the reading, etc.

Delete No special usage this time Daniel.z.tg (talk) 23:41, 18 May 2023 (UTC)Reply
Neutral. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 12:21, 24 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

一時預所#Japanese

SOP.

一時 (ichiji, “temporary, provisional”)
預所 (azukari-sho, “check, depository, storage place”)

‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 19:03, 5 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

Keep The English translation is "cloakroom" not "temporary depository" Daniel.z.tg (talk) 23:41, 18 May 2023 (UTC)Reply
Leaning towards keep. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 12:21, 24 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

一時解雇#Japanese

SOP.

一時 (ichiji, “temporary, provisional”)
解雇 (kaiko, “dismissal, firing”)

Pinging entry creator @Japanfreak0. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 17:56, 5 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

Keep Usage contrasts with 一時帰休. Daniel.z.tg (talk) 23:41, 18 May 2023 (UTC)Reply
Leaning towards keep. It's also in DJR. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 12:21, 24 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

一言も無い#Japanese

SOP.

一言 (ichigon, “one word”)
も (mo, “even”)
無い (nai, “not have”)

Pinging entry creator @Japanfreak0.

Delete Daniel.z.tg (talk) 23:41, 18 May 2023 (UTC)Reply

There might be some value to this, as the first term 一言 could also have the pronunciation hitokoto or ichigen, and in this particular turn of phrase, it seems like ichigon is more common / traditional. I would argue that this would be better as a usex at 一言 (ichigon) though, as I don't think this is enough to merit a full independent entry. There's also the problem that this might be shifted to more polite forms such as 一言もありません (ichigon mo arimasen) or 一言もございません (ichigon mo gozaimasen). ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 23:01, 5 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

It is somewhat idiomatic in the sense of "[I have] no complaints", "no excuse", etc, in agreement to what has been said by others. It is usually not used in the sense of "I have no words [because I am astonished]". Isn't there a need to explain that? Whym (talk) 01:21, 1 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

Keep. Idiomatic. I'm solely to blame. I have no means of refutation / face-saving. #apologetic

WT:LEMMING 大辞泉, 「一言もありませんが」のNG例とお勧め文例 -- Ywhy (talk) 07:08, 1 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

Keep. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 12:21, 24 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Undelete 丿部, 支部, and 辵部

Latest comment: 3 years ago9 comments5 people in discussion

These names for Kangxi radicals were all deleted for supposedly being SOP, despite the fact that they reference the characters' shapes rather than their meanings. They're no more "sum-of-parts" than 十字 or H-shaped. Binarystep (talk) 10:04, 7 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

I'd also like to note that 丿部 was deleted after four months by an RFD with zero votes (not counting the nomination), and no discussion other than my initial objection. There are entries at the top of this page (such as 死人 (sǐrén)) that have managed to survive for over a year under similar circumstances. Binarystep (talk) 05:55, 28 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

Support undeletion it doesn't make sense to do so, since there are useful non-encyclopedic information about these radicals, such as their names and pronunciation in each languages, which sometimes can be different from the normal pronunciation. Also it is absurd that we have entries like 單人旁 and 走之底 which are the descriptive names of the radicals, but not the standard 人部 or 辵部. I do see the reason of the deletion about SoP to be sort of valid, but if they are treated as such the radicals would require a separate etymology in the character pages, since they "reference the characters' shapes rather than their meanings" as BinaryStep suggested. However this would mean that the information about radicals to be extremely scattered across an already lengthy page, if not forgetting about them entirely, which is the case for most pages. –Wpi31 (talk) 02:29, 30 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

Comment: 部 is added to each Kangxi radical name, so in a way these are kind of SoP. These should probably be instead be a definition under 丿, 支, 辵, etc. Also, it's not fair to compare these to 單人旁; things like 人部 and 辵部 (as far as I can tell) refer to the classification of a character under a particular radical, which may or may not reflect a particular component of a character (i.e., it's an abstraction from character components). — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 06:13, 30 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

What about separating 人(U+4EBA) and ⼈(U+2F08) etc? That way it won't be SoP, but also allows separate radical entries to be created at the codepoints in the Kangxi Radical block. –Wpi31 (talk) 15:13, 30 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

A separate "radical" part of speech would be better, especially given the Kangxi arrangement was not the only one. Theknightwho (talk) 16:39, 30 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

@Wpi31: They were separated, but were merged: https://en.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=⼈&action=history —Fish bowl (talk) 18:46, 31 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

Keep deleted as Justin notes. See also my comment at Talk:丿部. —Fish bowl (talk) 18:46, 31 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

@Fish bowl: I count 1 support vote and 0 oppose votes. Given that 丿部 was deleted without any votes at all, it doesn't seem fair to hold this RFD to a higher standard. Binarystep (talk) 03:20, 4 November 2022 (UTC)Reply

November 2022

知らんがために我は信ず

Latest comment: 2 months ago12 comments5 people in discussion

Japanese. Some kind of apparently SOP motto. This, that and the other (talk) 10:28, 14 November 2022 (UTC)Reply

Full phrases like this are generally not includable unless they are proverbs. Is this one?

Re: the apparently derivation as a calque of Latin credo ut intelligam (WP article: Credo_ut_intelligam), I think the JA literally parses out as "I don't know, so I don't believe", which would seem to be quite different from the Latin... ??? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 23:46, 14 November 2022 (UTC)Reply

I think it’s a correct literal translation:

知らん, the classical volitional form of 知(し)る (shiru), directly translates intelligam, a form of the verb intelligere (“to understand”) in the present subjunctive;
ために and ut both indicate purpose;
信ず would be the classical conclusive form of modern 信(しん)ずる (shinzuru), so 我は信ず directly translates credō, which is a first person singular form of crēdere (“to believe”).

About whether it’s a proverb, I googled it and it seems to be used mostly in reference to Anselm’s position of credo ut intelligam. Examples:

here, p. 6:
アンセルムスが合理主義にも反主知主義にも反対し，「知らんがために我は信ず」という信仰と知識の関係を調和的に捉えている点では，本当のスコラ哲学の父として認められると九鬼は考えているわけである。それについては以下のように述べられている。
here, ６１−７０位:
アンセルムス(1033-1109) 　イタリア生まれのスコラ学者。「知らんがために我は信ず」の立場をとり，神の存在証明を試みた。初期スコラ学の代表者の一。

Since it seems to be a consistently used translation, could it be included like 我思(われおも)う、故(ゆえ)に我(われ)在(あ)り (ware omou, yue ni ware ari, “I think, therefore I am”) was? Mcph2 (talk) 13:55, 30 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

@Mcph2, thank you for the breakdown, at first blush I clearly got the wrong end of the stick.

That said, I see that google books:"知らんがために我は信ず" -wiki -dict nets a paltry 29 ostensible hits, collapsing to just 16 when paging through. While clearing CFI's bar of three, this is still clearly not widely used in the Japanese-writing world. Searching instead for google books:"credo ut intelligam" "は" -dict -wikt -wiki (adding the Japanese topic particle は (wa) to filter for Japanese texts), we get 367 ostensible hits, collapsing to 167 when paging through, most of which seem to offer different translations of the Latin.

By way of contrast, google books:"我思う、故に我在り" gives us 1,780 ostensible hits. Still not tons, but substantially more. Alternative spelling google books:"我思う、故に我あり" yields another 2,950 ostensible hits. I see also that both the Kojien and Gakken dictionaries include this latter phrase, while omitting the former.

I don't think this particular phrase, 知らんがために我は信ず (shiran ga tame ni ware wa shinzu), passes muster. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 17:43, 9 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

@Eirikr: I hadn’t thought of searching Google Books like that. Since it’s rarely used and it’s one of many translations of the same Latin phrase, I agree that we should delete it. Mcph2 (talk) 13:24, 11 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

If it's rarely used, couldn't it just receive a "rare" qualifier? MedK1 (talk) 02:04, 22 October 2023 (UTC)Reply

keep Shlyst (talk) 17:38, 13 February 2025 (UTC)Reply

@MedK1, @Shlyst, this is a translation of a phrase, not an idiom as Japanese. Moreover, the varying translations of the Latin also show that this is not a fixed and regular translation, but rather one of multiple possible translations.

With that in mind, why would we keep an entry for something that is clearly not a lexical item? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 22:16, 25 March 2026 (UTC)Reply

Ah. Admittedly, I don't remember this one, but I think I probably said keep because of its inclusion in Kotobank which is sometimes used to verify entries. https://kotobank.jp/word/%E7%9F%A5%E3%82%89%E3%82%93%E3%81%8C%E3%81%9F%E3%82%81%E3%81%AB%E3%82%8F%E3%82%8C%E4%BF%A1%E3%81%9A-80921 Shlyst (talk) 22:41, 25 March 2026 (UTC)Reply

@Shlyst, thank you for the reply and the link.

I note that the reference listed at Kotobank is the Japanese translation of the Encyclopedia Britannica international edition, not any of the dictionaries that Kotobank includes. Does that change your views at all? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 23:29, 25 March 2026 (UTC)Reply

Delete, since I'm also now realizing that crēdō ut intelligam isn't an existing Latin entry or phrase on Wiktionary and lacks presence as, say, cogito, ergo sum does. I had assumed it was like one of those cases. Shlyst (talk) 23:50, 25 March 2026 (UTC)Reply

Cheers, thank you for taking another look. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 01:02, 26 March 2026 (UTC)Reply

March 2023

貧富の差

Latest comment: 1 year ago7 comments6 people in discussion

Japanese. "wealth inequality": sum of parts. (@Shen233) —Fish bowl (talk) 01:43, 28 March 2023 (UTC)Reply

agreed, go ahead Shen233 (talk) 18:24, 28 March 2023 (UTC)Reply

Hmm, I note that this is a set phrase. One doesn't say, for instance, 富貧の差 (fuhin no sa, literally “rich poor 's difference”). An alternative way to say this in Japanese is 持てる者と持たざる者の差 (moteru mono to motazaru mono no sa, literally “can-have people and not-have people 's difference”), but this is also a set phrase: one cannot swap the noun order to 持たざる者と持てる者の差 (motazaru mono to moteru mono no sa) and still have it sound "right" -- just as one cannot say "the difference between the have-nots and the haves" and have that still work stylistically / idiomatically.

All that said, I'm not sure how much set-phrase-ness counts towards grounds for inclusion. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 21:15, 2 July 2023 (UTC)Reply

I think 貧富 vs 富貧 is a separate matter. 寒暖の差 is much more common than 暖寒の差, but that doesn't inform us anything about the の差 part, which is the main part to look at when discussing whether it is a sum of parts or not. --Whym (talk) 12:20, 12 July 2023 (UTC)Reply

I'm inclined to say it's not idiomatic enough considering the parts can be separated, as in 貧富の大きな差[17]. Whym (talk) 13:57, 2 September 2023 (UTC)Reply
Leaning towards delete. Makes for a good collocation though. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 12:34, 24 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

keep Shlyst (talk) 17:41, 13 February 2025 (UTC)Reply

April 2023

ジャンヌ・ダルク

Latest comment: 1 year ago5 comments4 people in discussion

Japanese

This was tagged long ago but seems not to have been listed here. The fate of this RFD should probably be tethered to that of its donor language term, at Jeanne d'Arc, unless we can see metaphorical use in one language not present in the other. —Soap— 11:56, 21 April 2023 (UTC)Reply

It occurred to me after I posted this that I'd rather see it at RFV, since what we're looking for is metaphorical use, but I will leave this here as its French counterpart stands currently at its own RFD. —Soap— 11:57, 21 April 2023 (UTC)Reply

If Pricasso is allowed then I don't see why ジャンヌ・ダルク and Jeanne d'Arc shouldn't be. Protegmatic (talk) 17:14, 30 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

It was included with other-language equivalents at Wiktionary:Requests for deletion/Non-English. —Fish bowl (talk) 07:15, 21 May 2023 (UTC)Reply

I agree that this should be solved as a matter of RFV. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 12:35, 24 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

May 2023

法性寺入道前関白太政大臣

Latest comment: 1 year ago9 comments3 people in discussion

Japanese. The term is the courtesy title of Fujiwara no Tadamichi. According to WT:NSE, [n]o individual person should be listed as a sense in any entry whose page title includes both a given name or diminutive and a family name or patronymic, which should also applies to specific names referring to a person like this. The entry is therefore out of scope.廣九直通車 (talk) 09:52, 10 May 2023 (UTC)Reply

後京極摂政前太政大臣

Japanese. The term is the courtesy title of Kujō Yoshitsune. Delete for the same reasons (out of scope per WT:NSE) as mentioned above.廣九直通車 (talk) 09:56, 10 May 2023 (UTC)Reply

入道前太政大臣

Japanese. The term is the courtesy title of Saionji Kintsune. Delete for the same reasons (out of scope per WT:NSE) as mentioned above.廣九直通車 (talk) 09:56, 10 May 2023 (UTC)Reply

It seems that you overlooked the last part of the green text: “...page title includes both a given name or diminutive and a family name or patronymic”; linking the four for emphasis. Don’t see the alleged proper names there... what seems to be the matter? You were probably thinking about card numbers 6, 11, 16, etc. of that particular anthology which do have said names... by the way, there’s a few more! ～ POKéTalker （＝◉＝） 05:04, 14 May 2023 (UTC)Reply

OK, perhaps I misunderstood. I thought WT:NSE may also extend to cover specific non-idiomatic personal names that may not fulfill these requirements. This leads to another point: they are prime examples of sum of parts, just like we won't create an entry named Queen Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God Queen of this Realm and of Her other Realms and Territories, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith that states that it's the formal title of Elizabeth II, or Lord of All the Beasts of the Earth and Fishes of the Seas and Conqueror of the British Empire in Africa in General and Uganda in Particular as the title for the dictator Idi Amin.廣九直通車 (talk) 09:53, 16 May 2023 (UTC)Reply

This is the first time am seeing a user appealing to the SOP card when the sense(s) do mean more than just them... assuredly, the above three aren’t the so-called “non-idiomatic sum of parts” you were expecting; and do not drag English to this discussion. An example that would both qualify for SOP and NSE is 6 (Middle Counselor Yakamochi) and 11 (Councillor Takamura) mentioned earlier. Since when is the “courtesy title of...” sense out of scope for this or other non-English language? Never seen such a case... what of Zhongni (second-born from Ni Hill), for Confucius? ～ POKéTalker （＝◉＝） 05:04, 18 May 2023 (UTC)Reply

Sorry, but as the terms's meaning are clearly directing to the courtesy names of people, why are you speaking card numbers? Some sort of playing card meanings like king of spades? I don't understand.廣九直通車 (talk) 09:31, 7 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

To the point: at least read Hyakunin Isshu on Wikipedia to know what these three really are. Where in the NSE says that courtesy names, especially in foreign languages, are “out of scope” from your understanding? Don’t see any proper names of persons somewhere in the three you are requesting for deletion.. ～ POKéTalker （＝◉＝） 13:43, 8 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

Unlike the nomination, I don't think it's covered by WT:NSE, but I still vote delete all: encyclopedic. —Fish bowl (talk) 22:05, 20 March 2025 (UTC)Reply

June 2023

민서

Discussion moved to Wiktionary:Requests for verification/CJK#민서.

August 2023

值銅鈿

Latest comment: 1 year ago9 comments4 people in discussion

Chinese. SoP: 值+銅鈿. Musetta6729 (talk) 11:30, 8 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

I feel like it's keepable? "Worth money" doesn't necessarily mean "worth a lot of money", right? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 11:29, 19 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

Delete "is [adjective]" always psycholinguistically means "is noticably [adjective]] in all languages, especially Chinese with 很 (hěn) Daniel.z.tg (talk) 05:00, 27 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

Mainly I felt as if 值銅鈿 was not a distinctly lexicalized construction. It is (to me) a somewhat acceptable way to say "valuable" but I wouldn't say it's that idiomatic at all - in Shanghainese at least I would default to 價鈿大 or 價鈿貴, and 值銅鈿 isn't necessarily a defined standalone adjective either, compared to something like 吃價鈿 "expensive, valuable".

It also sounds a lot better to me separated e.g. as 值交關銅鈿 "worth a lot of money", and in that sense I also don't necessarily see how it's special as opposed to, say, a phrase like 值鈔票. Musetta6729 (talk) 13:09, 27 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

Just to revive this discussion, I see some ghits for google:"老值銅鈿". I think this kind of shows that it's keepable as an adjective? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 16:17, 5 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

(Pinging @Musetta6729, ND381). — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 16:18, 5 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

I think that still wouldn't really be strong enough evidence since 老值鈔票 is also idiomatic

I'm not against keeping it but I just want to point that out — nd381 (talk) 12:05, 12 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

^ second this here.

With this in consideration I wouldn't be opposed to keeping the entry either (though maybe as a V/O phrase), and I think the adjective sense should maybe be moved to rfv or have a rfex, if we want to keep it.

Though the phrase is sayable and attestable in Shanghainese (I myself would rarely say it so I don't necessarily have good judgement for how natural it is), what seems like a big problem to me is the (Wu) label. Currently we have many words that are simply tagged as Wu where in reality they are only used in a certain range of Wu varieties. Most of these are fixable fairly quick, but this one doesn't seem very straightforward because there's probably a good range of localities even within Northern Wu for which the adjective sense might not be too natural (especially if they don't use 銅鈿 as a standalone word), and there just doesn't seem to be a good way of testing or certifying that without a good number of attestations from around the place. The word should probably be tagged as Wu either way (and then maybe a following list of descriptors or a usage note), but this would need to come from what we can gather from attestations then. — Musetta6729 (talk) 21:54, 27 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Per above, tentative keep but add V/O sense and move adjective sense to rfv.

(also if we were to keep 值銅鈿／值铜钿 then this implies that we should probably also create 值鈔票／值钞票 for at least some consistency. which I would be fine with, but it depends on what everyone else thinks) — Musetta6729 (talk) 22:00, 27 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

日向, 大和, 武蔵, 長門, 金剛

Latest comment: 10 months ago9 comments4 people in discussion

Japanese. Rfd-sense:

(historical) an Ise-class battleship of the Imperial Japanese Navy during World War II (see Japanese battleship Hyūga on Wikipedia.Wikipedia )
大和: a World War II battleship
a battleship of the Imperial Japanese Navy during World War II (see Japanese battleship Musashi on Wikipedia.Wikipedia )
a class of dreadnought battleships in the Imperial Japanese Navy built after World War I ( Nagato-class battleship on Wikipedia.Wikipedia )
the lead ship of the pair, known for its participation in Operation Crossroads ( Japanese battleship Nagato on Wikipedia.Wikipedia )
(historical) a class of battlecruisers in the Imperial Japanese Navy built before World War I, see Kongō-class battlecruiser on Wikipedia.Wikipedia
(historical) the lead ship of her class, which was rebuilt into a battleship in 1929, see Japanese battleship Kongō on Wikipedia.Wikipedia

Encyclopedic. – Wpi (talk) 11:57, 8 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

@Wpi, I see your point about encyclopedic detail.

That said, I think it is still lexically significant and useful information that these terms can be used as ship names.

As an example, what would you think about rewording the Japanese 大和 (Yamato) sense line to something more like what we see in the topmost line at w:Yamato#Ships?

Yamato, several Japanese ships of this name

‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 17:13, 9 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

Delete and replace with "names of various battleships" Daniel.z.tg (talk) 05:00, 27 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

Delete entirely —Fish bowl (talk) 02:53, 28 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

Switching to Delete for the same reason as my other diff. Daniel.z.tg (talk) 03:37, 28 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

@Fish bowl, @Daniel.z.tg, are you arguing that there is no lexical sense wherein these terms are used as ship names? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 19:15, 1 September 2023 (UTC)Reply

I think it's not something that should be in the dictionary. —Fish bowl (talk) 00:34, 3 September 2023 (UTC)Reply

We have plenty of other entries that basically say "this is a given name", "this is a surname", "this is a place name". Why would "this is a ship name" not be similarly significant lexical information about a given term? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 05:21, 13 September 2023 (UTC)Reply

@Eirikr: WT:NSE applies here as these are names of specific ships (or specific ship classes), as opposed to a generic name. I'm fine with a sense along the lines of "Yamato, name of several ships" if it's used as a generic ship name, but I don't think that's true in this case.

(Sorry for the extremely late reply) – wpi (talk) 06:26, 15 July 2025 (UTC)Reply

October 2023

失ウ, 失フ, ウシナウ, ウシナフ, +relevant item at ushinau#Romanization

Latest comment: 2 years ago15 comments5 people in discussion

Japanese. Katakana was used predominantly before the modern era in some genres of text (w:Meiji Constitution, etc.) in the same way that hiragana is today, so attestation is not the issue. Rather, I doubt that recording these is meaningful, as it would apply to essentially every native word in the language, and the search function is capable of finding words in either hiragana or katakana. —Fish bowl (talk) 21:27, 17 October 2023 (UTC)Reply

@Fish bowl: I came across 失(ウシナ)フ (ushinafu) in w:Talk:Historical kana orthography#Some things I can think of., referring to the Shōwa Emperor's use of it in the 1945 玉(ぎょく)音(おん)放(ほう)送(そう) (Gyokuon-hōsō, “Jewel Voice Broadcast”) (see File:ImperialSurrenderRescript.jpg, central block, column 12, characters 8–9). I searched for it on the English Wiktionary. It didn't come up, despite the fact that both 失う and うしなふ (but, perhaps crucially, not 失ふ) already existed. I'm not all that bothered whether these specific katakana forms stay, but it should be considered whether removing them and others like them helps or hinders someone running across such terms who wants to know what they mean, as I did. 0DF (talk) 22:58, 17 October 2023 (UTC)Reply

@Fish bowl: Could you explain what the problem is with having entries for these forms with katakana where we would normally find hiragana, please? 0DF (talk) 10:33, 21 October 2023 (UTC)Reply

I think it would be an unnecessary proliferation of entries ("apply to essentially every native word in the language"). —Fish bowl (talk) 21:30, 23 October 2023 (UTC)Reply

@Fish bowl: Thanks for responding.
I'd like to rebut your earlier assertion that "the search function is capable of finding words in either hiragana or katakana", by which I took you to mean that the search function finds hiragana terms given katakana queries and vice versa: Whilst working on the quotation at Citations:失フ, I searched for クシ (kushi), which didn't and still doesn't exist in the English Wiktionary; the search box's shortlist for that query currently comprises (in order) クシノマヴロ (kushinomavro), クシー (kushī), クシャクシャ (kushakusha), クジラ (kujira), クジャク (kujaku), and グジャグジャ (gujaguja); くし (kushi) exists, but isn't shortlisted. IMO, the shortlist for a katakana query should give, in priority order: 1) the katakana term that exactly matches the query; 2) the katakana term(s) that differ(s) from the query by the addition or removal of one or more 濁(だく)点(てん) (dakuten) and/or 半(はん)濁(だく)点(てん) (handakuten), and/or by variation in kana size relating to 促(そく)音(おん) (sokuon) and/or 拗(よう)音(おん) (yōon); 3) the hiragana term that is the exact equivalent of the katakana query; 4) the hiragana term(s) that differ(s) from the katakana query in the same manner as that described in point 2, with the added qualification that it or they be the hiragana equivalent(s). (And, of course, the shortlist for a hiragana query should give the same results re hiragana and katakana terms, mutatis mutandis.) Insofar as the search box doesn't prioritise other-kana equivalents in its shortlists (in the same way that it does prioritise letter-case equivalents for Latin-script queries), having entries for other-kana equivalent terms has greater utility. I would say that that utility outweighs the drawback of entry-proliferation.
Besides that, there is the matter of consistency: Why, if they're unnecessary, do entries exist for クシャクシャ (kushakusha) and グジャグジャ (gujaguja), the katakana equivalents of the hiragana くしゃくしゃ (kushakusha, “crumpled, wrinkled, disheveled”) and ぐじゃぐじゃ (gujaguja, “soggy, soaking”)? Why does 孔雀 (“peafowl”) have both くじゃく (kujaku) and クジャク (kujaku)? And why does 鯨 (“whale”) have くじら (kujira), クジラ (kujira), and the historical くぢら (kudira), but not the historical クヂラ (kudira)? It is a remarkable coincidence that I should find four unnecessarily proliferated kana entries from the six-entry shortlist yielded by a single katakana query.
Is there a clearly stated policy on this matter somewhere? 0DF (talk) 14:06, 24 October 2023 (UTC)Reply

How did you search?

If I use the full search feature to look for katakana クシ, as at https://en.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?search=%E3%82%AF%E3%82%B7&title=Special:Search&profile=advanced&fulltext=1&ns0=1, I get くし in hiragana as my second hit.

Different approaches to searching will produce different results, unfortunately.

The sorting of alternative hits that you describe (starting from "IMO") relies upon collation settings that, if memory serves, are not entirely within our control as Witkionary editors -- for that, I think we need to get help from the WikiMedia folks, and they have not always been generous with their time when it comes to Wiktionary.

As for "why ... do [katakana] entries exist" for equivalent hiragana ones, that often comes down to the simple fact that this is an open wiki, with many participating editors who are not familiar with (or sometimes don't agree with) our various practices and policies. If you peruse the user contributions of the editor who created the クシャクシャ entry, you'll see that they spent a lot of time and effort creating these alternative-from entries as stubs using {{ja-see}} to refer readers to the "main" entries. I have no details as to their motivation for doing so.

Re: "Is there a clearly stated policy on this matter somewhere?", I presume you're asking if there's a policy on including katakana-only entries? The closest I can think of is a general practice to only have lower-case entries for English terms, at least for those that aren't proper nouns or for some reason otherwise usually written with special capitalization. Even that is only a practice, as best I can find at the moment -- I see nothing in WT:ELE or WT:CFI that specifically says "don't create entries like PEACOCK" (which is essentially not too different from what we have at クジャク). The rule of thumb for languages using the Latin alphabet appears to be, "only create entries for a specific capitalized form if there is a solid lexical reason for doing so."

For Japanese, we generally don't have any solid lexical reason for creating katakana-only entries, so our modus operandi has been to not create these. There is no hard and fast prohibition against creating katakana-only entries, as mentioned at Wiktionary:About_Japanese#Considerations_about_Japanese_language_entries, but these may be viewed as cruft by the Japanese-language editors here (including me, for many such entries), and if there is no clear reason for these to exist on usability-related or lexical grounds, they might be removed -- as this thread is discussing.

In most cases, it looks to me like users create katakana-only entries simply because the underlying MediaWiki software platform is, frankly, not all that good at properly handling Japanese text. See the third paragraph above in this very post. This is a large part of why we have such "unnecessarily proliferated kana entries". If the MediaWiki folk were serious about supporting Wiktionary, and serious about supporting all the languages we work with, most (all?) of the issues you bring up would vanish.

----

Separately, about the main point in this thread that @Fish bowl brought up, our basic standard for creating Japanese entries is outlined at Wiktionary:About_Japanese, specifically in the #Lemma_entries section:

As a general rule, the most common spelling is considered the lemma.

In modern usage, particles and verb conjugation endings are all written in hiragana. As such, we should have an entry at 失ふ (using hiragana for the okurigana), but not at 失フ. Any historical citations of spellings using katakana should go on the citations page for the form using hiragana.

HTH! ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 01:36, 7 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

We definitely do have variant-script versions of Japanese words. I think the policy should be attestation: if we can find 3 qualifying citations for a term written in unusual orthography, where the entire passage is not written in such orthography, then it should be included. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 01:29, 1 December 2023 (UTC)Reply

Three is a vanishingly small number for a well-attested language like Japanese. Especially if we include manga in the scope of any such search, given that manga authors are famously / notoriously flexible in their spellings. Let alone the simple fact that katakana was the de facto "main" kana variety for governmental and other official texts from the Meiji period up through the end of WWII.

Again, the hiragana / katakana distinction in Japanese is analogous to the lower-case / upper-case distinction for Latin-alphabet text. I notice we have no entry at [[SONY]], for instance, despite that company's use of the all-caps spelling on its website and products. Similarly, we don't have any entry at [[アラス]] (the diacritic-less katakana rendering of 非ず (arazu, “there isn't”)), despite this particular spelling's use in the Japanese text of the script of the proclamation of surrender made by Emperor Hirohito.

I maintain that, if a term's katakana spelling is not lexically significant (with the possible exception of discoverability / usability concerns, as I outlined earlier in this thread), I don't think it merits inclusion. Just like how [[PEACOCK]] is not lexically significant, and does not merit inclusion. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 23:14, 1 December 2023 (UTC)Reply

@Eirikr: Thanks for your long comment. You've given me much to think about. As a resolution to this particular case, what do you think about using redirects? 失ウ would redirect to 失う、失フ would redirect to 失ふ、 ウシナウ would redirect to うしなう、 and ウシナフ would redirect to うしなふ (the katakana sense at ushinau would simply be deleted). What do you think of that as a solution? 0DF (talk) 21:27, 11 December 2023 (UTC)Reply

@0DF, I am mildly concerned about the potential for unintended behavior, and the maintenance overhead of keeping track of entries like this. That said, I am open to the idea of redirects, if other editors are also amenable. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 18:53, 8 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

Katakana being the default kana variety in Meiji-era Japan does not address my point, because I've explicitly excluded the case where the entire passage uses unusual orthography by modern standards. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 22:08, 14 December 2023 (UTC)Reply

@King of Hearts, the question remains, are these alternative spellings like 失ウ demonstrably lexically significant? Or are these the functional equivalent of all-caps spellings of regular English terms like [[PEACOCK]]? Until and unless we can show lexical significance, or there is a compelling technical reason (such as the usability and discoverability issues outlined above), we have no grounds for creating entries for such katakana spellings. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 18:53, 8 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

If PEACOCK appears 3 separate times, each in the course of otherwise normally capitalized English text, then yes I would include it as an alternate spelling. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 18:55, 8 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

Is there any lexical significance in that alternate spelling? If not, and the only difference is capitalization (or swapping hiragana / katakana), then the behavior should be an automatic redirection to the correct variant. This is already laid out at Wiktionary:Entry_layout#Entry_name:

If someone tries to access the entry with incorrect capitalization, the software will try to redirect to the correct page automatically.

Indeed, if we browse to https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/PEACOCK, the system redirects us to the entry at [[peacock]]. The fact that the system currently does not do that for spellings like https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/カワル, which should redirect to [[かわる]], is a failure of configuration. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 23:34, 16 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

Totally agree. Shen233 (talk) 00:12, 17 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

November 2023

사실은

Latest comment: 2 years ago3 comments3 people in discussion

Sum of parts. 사실 (sasil, “actually”) + -은 (-eun, topic marker).--Saranamd (talk) 12:46, 28 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

No opposition towards deletion as the entry creator. However, the broadly analogous 実は#Japanese is in monolingual dictionaries (https://www.weblio.jp/content/実は). Is there a clear difference as to why 사실은 isn't? —Fish bowl (talk) 02:44, 2 December 2023 (UTC)Reply

If you mean the Japanese adverb "実は", it is similar to the Korean word "사실" or "실은", not "사실은". So, the Korean entry "사실은" should be moved to "실은". Dubukimchi (talk) 08:29, 7 December 2023 (UTC)Reply

January 2024

久治良

Latest comment: 2 years ago6 comments2 people in discussion

(Notifying Eirikr, TAKASUGI Shinji, Atitarev, Fish bowl, Poketalker, Cnilep, Marlin Setia1, Huhu9001, 荒巻モロゾフ, 片割れ靴下, Onionbar, Shen233, Alves9, Cpt.Guapo, Sartma, Lugria, LittleWhole, Mcph2): can we have a conensus for lemmatizing old japanese entries? I prefer no okurigana, and only manyogana variants if the term isn't attested semantically in WOJ (e.g. 許呂佐; lemmatize as ko2ro2s- regardless of conjugation) Chuterix (talk) 02:26, 15 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

Old Japanese spellings in man'yōgana are so variable that I don't think we should create lemma entries at any man'yōgana spelling. Instead, I think we should formalize our EN Wikt approach to romanizations for Old Japanese (particularly with regard to the as-yet-uncertain vowel variants marked in many materials as /i₁, i₂, e₁, e₂, o₁, o₂/), and use the romanized spellings for our Old Japanese entries.

→ I am personally a fan of using the subscript numerals as above, as this distinguishes the vowel values without making any implicit or explicit judgment on how these were actually pronounced. That said, I recognize that it is not obvious how to input these for many people's keyboard layouts, and I am open to argument for some other notation.

I am perfectly happy for there to be soft-redirect entries for the various and sundry attestable man'yōgana spellings for any given term, provided that the main lemma entry is at a standardized spelling -- which, as far as I can think this through, would have to be a romanization.

I am opposed to creating entries at truncated root forms like ko2ro2s-. No reference that I am aware of collates verbs using truncated roots; they all use the terminal / predicative for Old Japanese, same as for modern Japanese. We know what the terminal / predicative form of Old Japanese verbs would be even for those verbs where we don't have attestations of such conjugations (such as /ko₂ro₂su/ for the 許呂佐 example above), so we should follow the principle of least surprise and use these for our lemmata. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 23:25, 16 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

Old languages are surprising in at least one way.

Perhaps we could input them as normal ASCII numbers, like a sample ko2ro2s-. This is like how we see a romanization link like Mandarin mi3 (Pinyin (numbered tone) reading of 米 (mǐ, “rice”)). Then, it could be sufficent that way. What do you think? Chuterix (talk) 00:24, 17 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

I've created page User:Chuterix/Comparison of A and B type romanizations in Old Japanese. Expansions will occur on this page. The index notation will be used for the principle of least surprise.

Also yeah; how the heck anyone is supposed to type subscript numbers like this? Chuterix (talk) 00:38, 17 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

Western linguists often use the truncated root form for yodan verbs, and renyokei for nidan/ichidan. Vovin, Pellard, Frellesvig, etc. See ONCOJ dictionary here Chuterix (talk) 20:18, 17 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

That may well be, but outside of such niche academic contexts (which includes ONCOJ's morphological analysis), every dictionary I've seen uses the terminal / predicative form for verbs as the lemma. I recommend that we do the same. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 21:40, 17 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

ko2ro2su

Latest comment: 2 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

See Wiktionary:Requests for deletion/CJK#久治良 Chuterix (talk) 00:03, 18 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

That discussion is still ongoing, and we have not achieved consensus. Given my current read of that thread, ko2ro2su would indeed be one of the proposed forms for the Old Japanese lemma.

We should hold off on any RFD of this term until the discussion about how to lemmatize Old Japanese has been resolved. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 20:54, 18 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

February 2024

写真写りがいい

Latest comment: 1 year ago5 comments5 people in discussion

Japanese. Defined as "photogenic"; is a phrase that literally translates as "reflection/appearance in photographs is good". @Frj9. —Fish bowl (talk) 00:20, 3 February 2024 (UTC)Reply

Ya, I think this is a naive entry, possibly inspired by other bilingual resources that might include otherwise-SOP terms and phrases as translations. See, for instance, the EJ ↔ JE Weblio entry here, and the corresponding lack of any such entry in the monolingual Japanese Weblio here.

Looks like the same user added this as the translation at English photogenic. I have no objection to including this as a translation in our table there, but it should be clearly broken down into its components -- as Japanese, 写真写りがいい (shashin utsuri ga ii) is an SOP phrase (actually an entire grammatical sentence), and this literally breaks down to 写真 (shashin, “photo”) + 写り (utsuri, “appearance in something, as an image”, from verb 写る (utsuru, “to appear in something as an image”), our entry is currently defective) + が (ga, subject particle) + いい (ii, “good”). ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 18:58, 6 February 2024 (UTC)Reply

Maybe rename to 写真写り? I feel like 写真写り can be considered idiomatic. Photographic devices can be said to have good or bad 写り, as in 写りのいいレンズ, as well as subjects. 写真写り's usage seems narrower - I believe it's only used for subjects of photography, such as people. We could explain that in 写り, if not in a separate entry for 写真写り, though. Whym (talk) 03:50, 4 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

I'd be in favor of moving this page to 写真写り and adding ...がいい as a collocation there. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 12:51, 24 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

keep Shlyst (talk) 17:44, 13 February 2025 (UTC)Reply

March 2024

リュキュ

Latest comment: 2 years ago9 comments2 people in discussion

Ainu. The term リュキュ (ryukyu) cannot be seen in real texts and has no historical probability. The word itself is also phonologically invalid in Ainu, which if valid would be リユキユ (riyukiyu) without the palatalization (no CyV in Ainu, all CyV would become Ci.yV such as Kiyo for Kyo=Kyoto, and Tokiyo for Tokyo). Ōta Mitsuru has coined ルチュ (Rucu) for Ryukyu based on Ryukyuian pronouciation) in his 和愛辞典. This リュキュ (ryukyu) can be seen as coinage most likely from a English or Japanese speaker without enough Ainu knowledge. So I would suggest the deletion. Mkpoli (talk) 08:33, 3 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

As you note, this is historically improbable, as the population of Ainu speakers in Hokkaido, Sakhalin, and other northern islands would not have had much contact with anyone talking about the Ryūkyū islands.

This might alternatively be a modern borrowing into Ainu, which could also account for the palatal glide.

That said, we would need evidence that this is actually used by Ainu speakers. My limited resources (mostly from The Foundation for Ainu Culture) don't include this term, to the best of my searching abilities. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 17:50, 19 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

リンゴ

Unsure what the nominator intends for リンゴ (ringo, “apple”). Batchelor recorded it as an Ainu borrowing from Japanese, in the 1905 second edition of his Ainu-English-Japanese Dictionary, as we can see here in the scanned version available via Archive.org.

We also see the word spelled in hiragana as りんご in running Ainu text, as on page 77 of this intermediate-level teaching text for Chitose-dialect Ainu. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 18:17, 18 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for your evidence. リンゴ seems to somewhat in used, although Batchelor's dictionary is infamous of its accuracy, and for the modern usage it is difficult to determine if it is code-switching or proper borrowing. In late 20th century, almost all (if not all) Ainu speakers are bilingual, so it's probable if the Japanese term with a voiced plosive ('g') is borrowed with that as a marginal phone. Anyway, I would like to withdraw my request for リンゴ for now. Although it should be disscused if the Hiragana form should be used. -- Mkpoli (talk) 11:25, 19 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

ロソク

Ainu. Same as リュキュ (ryukyu) although with valid phonology, without attestation and any support in dictionaries.

There is an entry in М. М. Добротворски's dictionary refering to 蝋燭 (osoku) Mkpoli (talk) 08:48, 3 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

Sorry, I mis-clicked the Send button. There is a entry, but the Aynu term is Ratchako instead [18]. There is no direct usage of rosoku. Mkpoli (talk) 08:53, 3 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

Batchelor recorded ロソク (rosoku, “candle”) on page 380 of his dictionary here. Meanwhile, per Batchelor's other entry here, ラッチャコ (ratchako) means "lamp", not "candle".

@Mkpoli, I cannot find any instance of either ラッチャコ or ratchako in your linked PDF. That file apparently spans pages 227 to 273. Could you explain where you found the term in the file? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 18:17, 18 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Eiríkr Útlendi, sorry I put the wrong link there. The correct one is here: M.M.ドブロトゥヴォールスキーのアイヌ語・ロシア語辞典(19). It says:

Рачако. Мос. лампа (отъ Яп. росоку, или рассоку,
свѣча), фонарь, (отъ Яп. (ラ
ツ
シ
ヨ
ク) рассіоку, восковая свѣча).

and translated as:

Ratchako. Mos. ランプ（日本語の rosoku, あるいは rassoku「ろうそく」から），灯火，
（日本語の（ラツシヨク）rassioku「ろうそく」から）．

-- Mkpoli (talk) 11:11, 19 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

Hmm, interesting. There is a Japanese reading rassoku for the modern term rōsoku (蝋燭). I can find suggestions that 蝋燭 might rarely have been pronounced as rōshoku, so while I cannot find evidence of any rasshoku pronunciation, it is plausible enough to suppose that this might have existed.

However, it seems less plausible to me for Japanese rassoku or rasshoku to become Ainu ratchaku — how and why would the medial consonant /sː/ or /ʃː/ fortify to become /tʃː/? Ainu has a native /sː/ phone. And how and why would the second vowel /o/ become /a/? These are contrastive in both Japanese and Ainu.

Separately, I note on page 73 of the PDF that the authors record Ainu terms rosoku and rósugu as borrowings from Japanese rōsoku. These are much more straightforward.

‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 17:41, 19 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

敵

Latest comment: 7 months ago5 comments4 people in discussion

Japanese. Rfd-sense: "revenge, vengeance". Submitted by an ephemeral IP user.

親の敵: the murderer/humiliator of one's parent;

妹の仇: the violator of one's sister; (the nature of grievance is unspecified)

The correct sense is actually "enemy". Whether vengeance would be exacted is contingent on the context. -- Ywhy (talk) 09:31, 29 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

(This would appear to be User:Fumiko Take, FWIW. —Fish bowl (talk) 03:53, 30 March 2024 (UTC))Reply

The edit in question was this one from Feb 28, 2021. Sure looks like Fumiko.

Looking more deeply now, I can't confirm this sense in any of the references I have access to, such as the Nihon Kokugo Daijiten entry here at Kotobank, or the Daijisen entry here at Weblio (both in Japanese). In the context of the quote added by the anon, the "enemy" sense still fits. I suspect the "revenge" sense is a mistake, due either to the anon misunderstanding a Japanese text, or reading a mistaken translation.

(FWIW, I'm sorry I didn't dig deeper earlier.)

Barring any native speakers chiming in to confirm any "vengeance" sense, I'd say delete. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 23:13, 24 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

Yes, it seems like a misunderstanding. I would imagine this comes from reanalysis of phrases such as かたき（敵／仇）を取る, which can be translated 'take vengeance [on someone]', and might motivate one to analyze 取る='take' and かたき='vengeance', superficially. However, I believe 取る here rather means 'kill' more explicitly (and thus かたき simply means 'enemy'). The usage of 取る in that sense is rare nowadays, but it's not strange to see it lives on in idioms. Compare with かたきを討つ which means basically the same, suggesting 取る=討つ in these idioms. Whym (talk) 03:47, 4 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

The Daijirin dictionary entry for 取る (toru) includes this sense:

討ち果たす。殺す。また，首を切る。「命を―・る」「仇(ｶﾀｷ)を―・る」「敵将の首を―・る」
Tachihatasu. Korosu. Mata, kubi o kiru. "Inochi o toru" "Kataki o toru" "Tekishō no kubi o toru"
To dispatch. To kill. Also, to decapitate. "Take a life" "Kill an opponent" "Take an enemy general's head"

Note the sample sentence here, explicitly including the term kataki as the object of the verb, albeit with the alternative kanji spelling 仇. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 18:18, 4 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

大日本帝国陸軍

Latest comment: 1 year ago5 comments5 people in discussion

Japanese, SoP of 大日本帝国 (Dainippon Teikoku, “Empire of Japan”) + 陸軍 (rikugun, “army”). Also cf. reasons for WT:RFDE#People's Liberation Army Navy.廣九直通車 (talk) 13:35, 31 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

Delete. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 12:54, 24 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
Delete. 20041027 tatsu (talk) 15:48, 15 February 2025 (UTC)Reply

keep Shlyst (talk) 18:36, 16 February 2025 (UTC)Reply

Delete —Fish bowl (talk) 00:53, 28 February 2025 (UTC)Reply

大日本帝国海軍

Latest comment: 1 year ago5 comments5 people in discussion

Japanese, SoP of 大日本帝国 (Dainippon Teikoku, “Empire of Japan”) + 海軍 (kaigun, “navy”). Also cf. reasons for WT:RFDE#People's Liberation Army Navy.廣九直通車 (talk) 13:36, 31 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

Delete. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 12:55, 24 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
Delete. 20041027 tatsu (talk) 15:48, 15 February 2025 (UTC)Reply

keep Shlyst (talk) 18:36, 16 February 2025 (UTC)Reply

Delete —Fish bowl (talk) 00:53, 28 February 2025 (UTC)Reply

April 2024

塳文化亞東

Latest comment: 1 year ago8 comments3 people in discussion

Vietnamese, tagged but not listed with comment “Ad hoc construction from known elements”. MuDavid 栘𩿠 (talk) 01:53, 4 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

塳文化𡨸漢

Same. MuDavid 栘𩿠 (talk) 01:53, 4 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

Exists in the research paper, Silent Conversation through Brushtalk (筆談): The Use of Sinitic as a Scripta Franca in Early Modern East Asia on page 2, table 1.

https://dx.doi.org/10.1515/glochi-2019-0027 Lachy70 (talk) 06:40, 7 March 2025 (UTC)Reply

塳文化東亞

Same. MuDavid 栘𩿠 (talk) 01:53, 4 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

Probably an RFV issue? 沈澄心 ✉ 12:58, 9 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

I think @PhanAnh123 means we shouldn’t include multiword phrases in Hán–Nôm, as the separate parts can be looked up. I certainly agree with the sentiment, but we don’t yet have policy on this. If this passes here, I’ll nominate it for verification. MuDavid 栘𩿠 (talk) 01:49, 10 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

Exists in the research paper, Silent Conversation through Brushtalk (筆談): The Use of Sinitic as a Scripta Franca in Early Modern East Asia on page 2, table 1.

https://dx.doi.org/10.1515/glochi-2019-0027 Lachy70 (talk) 06:40, 7 March 2025 (UTC)Reply

Those are very much not uses, but merely mentions. MuDavid 栘𩿠 (talk) 07:30, 7 March 2025 (UTC)Reply

dou3-2, waa6-2, kiu4-2, dek6-2

Latest comment: 6 months ago4 comments4 people in discussion

Cantonese Jyutping transcription for morphemes with a changed tone (3→2). Do we want this? This feels like it is entering "word" territory, and we do not have Jyutping entries for compound words. —Fish bowl (talk) 08:41, 4 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

Leaning towards delete. I wonder if we should redirect these to dou2, waa2, kiu2, dek2 and have the links in {{zh-pron}} point there as well. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 19:58, 9 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

Same view as Justin. – wpi (talk) 06:15, 13 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

Delete but I think there should be some categories on the tone change ...? English words have Category:Rhymes:*. Ping me User:内存溢出的猫 plz!^📝瞄？_💬喵! 17:05, 6 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

都市計画税

Latest comment: 1 year ago5 comments4 people in discussion

Japanese, SoP of 都市計画 (toshi keikaku, “urban planning”) + 税 (zei, “tax”). Do we need to create other entries of different kind of Japanese taxation, for which a number of them are SoP?廣九直通車 (talk) 09:40, 6 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

Crikey, no! 😄 I don't think there's any utility in adding SOP entries for all the umpteen kinds of 税 (zei, “tax”).

SOP, delete. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 23:14, 24 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

WT:LEMMING: included in Digital Daijisen? —Fish bowl (talk) 03:57, 28 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

If 消費税 and 所得税 are fine, and 都市計画税 and 自動車重量税 are not, what is the difference? Whether they have counterparts in other countries (and Wiktionary wants to document the well-known translations)? Whym (talk) 10:07, 29 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

My thought: (1) because the former two are widely levied worldwide while the latter two is not, and (2) we have English entries for them; such that the relevant English entries (goods and services tax; income tax) would survive as translation hubs?廣九直通車 (talk) 07:21, 14 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

한겨레

Latest comment: 5 months ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Korean. Rfd-sense:

''{{w|The Hankyoreh}}'', a [[daily]] [[newspaper]] in [[South Korea]]

Encyclopedic; WT:COMPANY / WT:BRAND? —Fish bowl (talk) 22:13, 27 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

Hi, I'm not really familiar with how deletion works on Wiktionary, I just happened on this RfD by looking up this term here. I don't know if being useful to readers is a valid reason to oppose deletion, but it was useful to me. If this is deleted, will there be any way to retain the information that this is a compound of two other words? Toadspike (talk) 06:59, 19 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

June 2024

獨立國

Latest comment: 1 year ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Chinese, SoP of 獨立 / 独立 (dúlì, “independent”) + 國 / 国 (guó, “state”).

Unlike other terms like 共和國 / 共和国 (gònghéguó, “republic”) or 王國 / 王国 (wángguó, “kingdom”) that signifies a country's form of government, the term is pretty much of a declaratory title used by all sorts of countries from Papua New Guinea (Independent State of Papua New Guinea) to Fascist Croatia (Independent State of Croatia).廣九直通車 (talk) 09:16, 5 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

It's literally the fourth word of the Korean Declaration of Independence. Delete the Chinese part if you must, but it's a Pan-Asian term.--Aquatiki (talk) 02:10, 28 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

樹莓派

Latest comment: 6 months ago4 comments4 people in discussion

Chinese.

===Proper noun===
{{head|zh|noun}}

# Raspberry Pi (computer).

WT:BRAND —Fish bowl (talk) 02:04, 14 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

Wikipedia says "Pi" in Raspberry Pi is a reference to the Python programming language, so maybe we should keep this translation. In China, the "Pi" has therefore been used for lots of similar development boards like Orange Pi. Also, the name might be confused with the actual raspberry pie dessert, which has happened in Chinese Raspberry Pi communities before — they sometimes gets posts from raspberry farmers. 内存溢出的猫 (talk) 12:30, 2 July 2024 (UTC)Reply

Delete; I think WT:NSE is the more appropriate policy here. – wpi (talk) 14:06, 14 July 2025 (UTC)Reply

Does this not meet the attestation requirement? The Raspberry Pi/樹莓派 is widely used and its popularity has resulted in a number of competitors springing up in China. As in the comment above, these all use the Pi/派 part of the name in their own names together with some other random fruit, e.g. Orange Pi/香橙派 and Banana Pi/香蕉派. That's why I added the entry - so that it can be seen that these are not all different types of baked fruit pies, as a literal interpretation would suggest.

True bugman (talk) 12:03, 9 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

July 2024

国会

Latest comment: 1 year ago3 comments3 people in discussion

Japanese, various country-specific senses for their national legislatures, including:

the National Diet (Japan's bicameral legislature)
the Cortes Generales (Spain's bicameral legislature)
the Parliament (France's bicameral legislature; Sri Lanka's and Singapore's unicameral legislature)
the House of Nation (Bangladesh's unicameral legislature)
the National Assembly (South Korea's unicameral legislature)
the National Assembly (Vietnam's unicameral legislature)

These country-specific senses are clearly encyclopedic, should be retained for Wikipedia, and violates WT:CFI#Wiktionary is not an encyclopedia. This is just like we will not include senses like "the Parliament (Britain's bicameral legislature)" in parliament (and even in Parliament we only mentioned especially while do not list every national legislatures called parliament).廣九直通車 (talk) 10:15, 10 July 2024 (UTC)Reply

Agreed that the Japanese 国会 entry is a mess: the various "Etymology" sections are mistakes, as this is the same Middle-Chinese-derived Japanese term 国会 (kokkai) in each instance, with the same Middle-Chinese derivation. There was no borrowing from Korean or Vietnamese. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 23:19, 23 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

I would delete all of the legislature proper noun senses, with the possible exception of National Diet. That one seems to me to be the most common referent of the word, though that might be a pragmatic rather than a lexical fact. Cnilep (talk) 00:24, 1 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Japanese terms of 訪X

Latest comment: 1 year ago7 comments4 people in discussion

訪日 (hōnichi)
訪英 (hōei)
訪露 (hōro)
訪韓 (hōkan)
訪朝 (hōchō)
訪台 (hōtai)
訪仏 (hōfutsu)
訪米 (hōbei)
訪欧 (hōō)
訪独 (hōdoku)
訪中 (hōchū)
訪米 (hōbei)

All Japanese terms. Clear SoP of 訪 (hō, “visit”) + the corresponding abbreviations of various countries and territories. Also cf. the reasons given in #Chinese terms of 訪X.廣九直通車 (talk) 10:24, 10 July 2024 (UTC)Reply

While I understand the Chinese case, the Japanese case might be more tricky because of how formal/literary these compounds are. 訪(ほう)日(にち) (hōnichi) for one is found in goo, a monolingual dictionary. --kc_kennylau (talk) 14:05, 10 July 2024 (UTC)Reply

Are there more dictionary entries? After all WT:LEMMING is not automatically applied whenever there is entries in third-party dictionaries.廣九直通車 (talk) 07:54, 25 July 2024 (UTC)Reply

Keep. 訪(ほう) (hō) is neither a word nor an affix and from what I know, WT:SOP has never applied to pure kanji compounds. This doesn't mean that we have to include any kanji string; words like 試験問題 are SOP because they are transparent compounds of words, not kanji.

Moreover, these entries serve to inform readers about the correct pitch accent, if nothing else. Unlike affixed constructions or compounds of words, kanji compounds don't have predictable pitch accent. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 18:16, 29 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

But then, it can also be argued that the previous batch of Chinese terms deletion could tell others of the Chinese pronunciation, isn't it?廣九直通車 (talk) 07:23, 14 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

@廣九直通車: From what little Chinese I know, the situation doesn't seem to be analogous: The Chinese pronunciation is always predictably derivable from the parts which is not true for Japanese. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 20:13, 14 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

keep Shlyst (talk) 02:02, 2 March 2025 (UTC)Reply

결사옹위

Latest comment: 7 months ago3 comments3 people in discussion

Korean, SoP of 결사(決死) (gyeolsa, “being desperate resolute with one's life”) + 옹위(擁衛) (ong'wi, “to support and defend”). Might mention as an usage example in the entries though.廣九直通車 (talk) 04:02, 30 July 2024 (UTC)Reply

Delete. I've checked the dictionaries published in North Korea, none included this word. Maraschino Cherry (talk) 09:24, 4 February 2025 (UTC)Reply

Delete. There are few instances where the word is used alone. It is mostly used as "수령결사온위". YeBoy371 (talk) 14:28, 11 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

August 2024

八角楓科

Latest comment: 1 year ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Chinese. SoP: 八角楓 Alangium/Alangiaceae + 科 family. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 00:30, 16 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

September 2024

制圧下

Latest comment: 7 months ago6 comments5 people in discussion

Japanese.

# under [[oppression]]

WT:SOP: 制圧 + 下, cf. collocations at [19] such as 騒音下の in noisy conditions, 高応力下の highly stressed, 還元性環境下の under a reducing environment《化学》. —Fish bowl (talk) 03:46, 11 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

Delete. Cnilep (talk) 05:28, 14 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
Delete. Can be converted to a {{coi}}. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 12:57, 24 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
Delete. 20041027 tatsu (talk) 18:17, 12 February 2025 (UTC)Reply

RFD deleted. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 05:16, 11 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

戦時下

===Etymology===
{{ja-compound|戦|せん|時下|じか|t1=war|t2=these days}}

===Noun===
{{ja-noun|せんじか}}

# [[wartime]]

Accurately analyzed as 戦時＋下. —Fish bowl (talk) 21:40, 30 May 2025 (UTC)Reply

龜跤趖出來

Latest comment: 1 year ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Chinese. Analyzable as 龜跤 / 龟跤+趖 (suō)+出來 / 出来 (chūlái), although this phrase is included in Taiwan MOE's dictionary.--Mahogany115 (talk) 23:26, 24 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

October 2024

光復香港、時代革命

Latest comment: 1 year ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Chinese. SoP/encyclopedic. Moved from WT:RFVCJK. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 05:57, 3 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Neutral —Fish bowl (talk) 00:54, 28 February 2025 (UTC)Reply

開水

Latest comment: 1 year ago6 comments2 people in discussion

Discussion moved from WT:Requests for verification/CJK#開水.

Chinese. RfV Sense: "(Wu) to boil water". This is not found as a Verb-Object phrase in most northern Wu varieties checked so far, rather only glossed as "boiled water" instead. Musetta6729 (talk) 09:45, 3 February 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Musetta6729: 上海话大词典, p. 70: "㊁ k‘ᴇ₄₄ sɿ₃₄ 水烧开了：～了水开了。" — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 04:50, 23 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

I think this entry should maybe be rephrased then, and I would even go so far to say it might be SoP.

This would mean not "to boil water" but "(of water) to be boiling" in Shanghainese.

It would be analogous to something like 水開了 but in a 王冕死了父親-esque word order, and seeing that stuff like 水開 or 水滾 aren't entries I'm not sure if this warrants an entry either. I would argue 開水了 isn't even a very common word order in Shanghainese - Qian could have put the alternative meaning in to clarify on the potential impact that using LPS or RPS can have on how the phrase is interpreted. Musetta6729 (talk) 02:32, 24 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Musetta6729: Should this be moved to RFD then, since it's a SoP issue? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 14:50, 3 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Justinrleung Sure - that sounds reasonable. — Musetta6729 (talk) 10:02, 4 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Chinese. Rfd-sense: "(Wu) to boil water". Moved from RFV (see discussion copied over above). — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 20:49, 4 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

帶等

Latest comment: 11 months ago3 comments2 people in discussion

Chinese. SoP: 帶 ("lead", verb) + 等 (progressive particle). — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 05:58, 6 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

帶等 (Dictionary of Taiwan Hakka). Kethyga (talk) 05:35, 29 May 2025 (UTC)Reply

This dictionary often has things we would consider SoP. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 02:12, 5 July 2025 (UTC)Reply

當牛

Latest comment: 8 months ago4 comments2 people in discussion

Chinese. SoP: 當 "very" + 牛 "naughty". — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 01:38, 16 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

當牛 (Dictionary of Taiwan Hakka). BTW, "naughty" sense isn't listed in 牛 (niú). Kethyga (talk) 05:32, 29 May 2025 (UTC)Reply

The "naughty" sense is now listed at 牛. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 05:24, 15 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

The dictionary glosses it as 指人非常淘氣, and the example 這兜本來當牛个細人仔全變到當乖 is translated 這些本來很頑皮的小孩子全部都變得很乖, with the parallel 當乖 translated as 很乖. All this is to say, this is SoP. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 05:26, 15 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

蓋牛

Latest comment: 8 months ago3 comments2 people in discussion

Chinese. SoP: 蓋 "very" + 牛 "naughty". — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 01:40, 16 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

蓋牛 (Dictionary of Taiwan Hakka). Kethyga (talk) 05:36, 29 May 2025 (UTC)Reply

The dictionary glosses it as 指人非常淘氣, and the 對應國語 is 很頑皮. All this is to say, this is SoP. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 05:27, 15 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

November 2024

亂嗮龍

Latest comment: 1 year ago4 comments3 people in discussion

Chinese. 亂龍 + 嗮. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 04:28, 2 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Leaning towards delete, but I wonder if 亂嗮大龍 should be kept. – wpi (talk) 11:47, 14 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Weak keep/redirect/{{alt form}}? It seems to be included in 廣州方言詞典 by 白宛如 [20] [21] and has a stub entry in words.hk. —Fish bowl (talk) 23:22, 21 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Definitely not {{alt form}} since it's an inflected variant. It could be a redirect perhaps. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 16:40, 27 February 2025 (UTC)Reply

一失足成千古風流人物

Latest comment: 1 year ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Chinese. Sounds whimsical and humorous enough but can this reckoned to be a word and be included in Wiktionary? In my personal judgment, it is but a neologism-blend taken from classical poems, although not entirely meaningless still no need to be included at all. If this is passed, can I say like 黄河之水天上来，飞入寻常百姓家 eligible to get included as well? Thingamajig related to 黃泛區／黄泛区 (Huángfànqū), coined of the same kidney. This is my first time adding topic here so I really look forward to other editorial opinions. Maraschino Cherry (talk) 10:53, 14 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

嚇殺

Latest comment: 1 year ago3 comments2 people in discussion

Chinese (Wu). SoP - 嚇+殺. 殺 is a verb complementizer in much of Northern Wu meaning "[to do ...] so as to induce death". — Musetta6729 (talk) 20:47, 21 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Comment: We do have a lot of entries with 死 as the complement, like 嚇死, 殺死, etc. I imagine 死 is as productive as 殺? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 07:46, 1 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

That would be correct so fair enough. Though would this mean that other such ～殺 compounds can also be added in the future provided there's some degree of idiomaticity? — Musetta6729 (talk) 04:07, 8 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

嚇殺人

Latest comment: 1 year ago4 comments3 people in discussion

Chinese (Wu). SoP: 嚇+殺+人. The verb sense ("to make people afraid") is definitely not fossilized SoP - it would be a Verb-Object phrase in any case (analogous to Mandarin 嚇死人). The current Adjective sense ("... to a very high extent", which, shouldn't it really be adverbial?) is arguably idiomatic to some extent, but there are expanded variants such as 嚇殺個人 which can in most cases be employed in the same way in e.g. Shanghainese. Should only the verb sense of this be deleted or should both senses be altogether removed? See above thread about 嚇殺 also. Note also the variant characters 嚇煞人 which is currently also logged as an entry. — Musetta6729 (talk) 20:57, 21 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Delete SOP — nd381 (talk) 08:00, 23 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Musetta6729, ND381: I think I can agree that the verb sense is SoP, but I wonder what the best way to deal with the sense of "to a very high degree; extremely" should be. Would it be a sense under 嚇殺? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 16:30, 27 February 2025 (UTC)Reply

It would probably be derivable from 嚇人 instead (which should have similar usage as 嚇殺人). 殺 itself can also be put post-verbs or adjectives for intensification.

Though to think back on this, I'm also not sure if I'd consider the "extremely" sense a uniquely lexified one either way - its usage in that sense after 得 or 來 is fairly idiomatic, often it's parsable as "extremely" in discursive contexts, but "XXX to a frightening degree" also often successfully implies "to a high degree" anyway. (ie arguably in this sense it still does arguably function more like the verb phrase)

We do currently have 嚇殺人香 as a lemma where it seems to more concretely just mean "extremely" by surface analysis, but then again I'm not sure if this maybe less SoP-like usage of it as a pre-modifier can be backed up by further usage examples or dictionary citations (it certainly isn't very productive as a pre-modifier in Shanghainese and can be just a one-off term where it has fossilized too). — Musetta6729 (talk) 16:54, 27 February 2025 (UTC)Reply

嚇煞人

Latest comment: 1 year ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Chinese (Wu). SoP. See Wiktionary:Requests for deletion/CJK#嚇殺人.　— Musetta6729 (talk) 21:00, 21 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Delete SOP — nd381 (talk) 07:59, 23 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

一からやり直す

Latest comment: 1 year ago5 comments3 people in discussion

Japanese. SOP. Better documented as a collocation. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 13:29, 24 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

I go back and forth on this one. On one hand, the use of 一(いち) (ichi) is metaphorical: literally a number, used idiomatically to signify a prior state. But on the other hand it is such a common metaphor, even cross-linguistically, that the usage doesn't really feel idiomatic. I don't know that much would be lost by deleting this, but I don't know that much would be gained. Cnilep (talk) 01:45, 29 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Cnilep: I think this metaphorical use merits inclusion but is better documented at 一 or 一から. やり直す is far from only verb that can be combined with it. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 10:00, 29 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Fytcha: I think you are probably right. There is currently 一 sense 2.2: "the beginning". Maybe a note or something? In any case, I'm comfortable calling 一からやり直す SoP. Cnilep (talk) 04:21, 12 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

keep Shlyst (talk) 02:01, 2 March 2025 (UTC)Reply

見てる

Latest comment: 1 year ago2 comments2 people in discussion

見ている

Japanese. SOP. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 20:19, 28 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Unless I miss my guess, it is standard to have root and preterite forms of Japanese verbs, and to leave the other forms to a conjugation table on the root entry. In which case, delete the full form. And since the colloquial form is the result of a common and productive morphological process, delete both. Cnilep (talk) 23:27, 28 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

てる#Etymology_1 OR る#Etymology_3

Latest comment: 10 months ago5 comments5 people in discussion

(Notifying Eirikr, TAKASUGI Shinji, Atitarev, Fish bowl, Poketalker, Cnilep, Marlin Setia1, 荒巻モロゾフ, Shen233, Cpt.Guapo, Sartma, Lugria, LittleWhole, Chuterix, Mcph2, Theknightwho):

I think one of these two has to go and I suggest we use the same convention (of whether we include て/で or not) for all similar contractions.

What speaks for てる is that it meshes more nicely with とる and とく and that monolingual dictionaries generally seem to document it under this headword.

What speaks for る is that we don't have to have everything twice (て/で) and that it is more canonical (analyzing it as てる is rebracketing IMO).

Any opinions? — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 20:23, 28 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Fytcha Agreed - I favour keeping てる (-teru), which is the actual suffix. Theknightwho (talk) 20:26, 28 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

I think that Fytcha is correct to call てる rebracketing; it comes from [Conjunctive verb + いる], with て part of the inflected verb. That said, I have absolutely no objection to keeping てる (which is intuitively and functionally suffix-like) and losing る 3. I would also be happy to call でる a variant of てる, though that may be beyond this discussion, and might not simplify much anyway. Cnilep (talk) 23:20, 28 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Fytcha Agreed – I'm also for てる (-teru), since, as you said, it falls into the same category of abbreviated forms like とる (-toru) (as abbreviation of 〜ておる), とく (-toku) (as abbreviation of 〜ておく), ちゃう (-chau) (as abbreviation of 〜てしまう), &c. — Sartma ^{【𒁾𒁉 ● 𒊭 𒌑𒊑𒀉𒁲】} 15:01, 3 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

As a counterpoint, I see that the example given at てる#Etymology_1 is problematic:

待(ま)ってる
matteru
I am waiting

Not only does this not have proper bolding (only emphasizing half of the headword), but it also points to a morphological issue with this analysis -- てる (teru) here appears to suffix onto 待っ (ma'), which isn't anything in Japanese.

The bolding is easy enough to fix.
The morphological issue would presumably be best explained in the etymology.

I am mostly copacetic about keeping てる#Etymology_1, so long as these issues can be addressed.

At the same time, I think we should also keep る#Etymology_3, not least on discoverability / usability grounds. To wit, Japanese learners will be familiar with the so-called "te form" for verbs, and are thus more likely to see 待ってる (matte ru, matteru) and recognize the 待って (matte) part, and rightly wonder what that る (ru) is doing there on the end.

‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 21:54, 14 July 2025 (UTC)Reply

December 2024

海老

Latest comment: 1 year ago3 comments3 people in discussion

Chinese. Rfd-sense: (literary, of a sea) to dry up. Tagged by @Maraschino Cherry without much of an explanation. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 07:44, 1 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

Sorry. Let me explain the reason here: First of all, this usage, if can be called so, after my painstaking search, is seldom seen, likely even once or twice; Secondly, it is a metaphor imaginatively devised out of someone's creativity. Take this verse for example:

威靈丕振，即教地仄天廻；憤恨難平，漫説水乾海老。 [Classical Chinese, trad.]
威灵丕振，即教地仄天迴；愤恨难平，漫说水干海老。 [Classical Chinese, simp.]

From: circa 1711, 章藻功, 《告潮神文》

Wēilíng pī zhèn, jí jiào dìzè tiānhuí; fènhèn nán píng, mànshuō shuǐgān hǎilǎo. [Pinyin]

(please add an English translation of this usage example)

Here 海老 itself is explained by 水乾／水干, therefore we can clearly know the literally aging of sea is a vivid figure of speech meaning water drying up. Although this is not where 海老 is first attested, but the usage is exactly same, only with the order reversed, i.e., 水乾／水干 was originally following 海老. So far I haven't found any example where these two don't appear together. That being the case, in my simple understanding, should this RFD not be passed, 水乾 must be created as well, mustn't it? Maraschino Cherry (talk) 09:27, 1 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

It's included in Hanyu Da Cidian and Ciyuan, "海水枯竭" (literally seawater dried-up) Kethyga (talk) 22:27, 30 April 2025 (UTC)Reply

TCM prescription entries

Latest comment: 1 year ago5 comments4 people in discussion

Chinese. Encyclopedic and potentially WT:BRAND. The list includes the following 109 entries with more or less the same format: 七厘散, 活血止痛散, 九分散, 阿魏化痞膏, 八味沉香散, 舒筋丸, 茴香橘核丸, 跌打活血散, 狗皮膏, 小金丸, 十香返生丸, 化症回生片, 跌打丸, 少林風濕跌打膏, 七十味珍珠丸, 二十五味珊瑚丸, 二十五味珍珠丸, 經方, 白帶丸, 琥珀抱龍丸, 八味檀香散, 麝香保心丸, 羚羊清肺丸, 戊己丸, 通宣理肺丸, 少腹逐瘀丸, 保赤散, 八珍益母丸, 前列舒丸, 二至丸, 四君子丸, 十香止痛丸, 舒肝丸, 昆明山海棠片, 千柏鼻炎片, 清肺抑火丸, 石斛夜光丸, 十六味冬青丸, 五虎散, 五子衍宗丸, 定坤丹, 附子理中丸, 麻仁丸, 七味榼滕子丸, 清眩丸, 七味葡萄散, 青果丸, 清咽丸, 生血丸, 四正丸, 桂附理中丸, 二冬膏, 三子散, 女金丸, 降糖丸, 桂枝茯苓丸, 避瘟散, 刺五加浸膏, 八味清心沉香散, 桂林西瓜霜, 痧藥, 安胃片, 得生丸, 蛤蚧定喘丸, 更年安片, 清肺消炎丸, 六味木香散, 六合定中丸, 香砂六君丸, 芎菊上清丸, 四神丸, 舒胸片, 舒肝和胃丸, 四味土木香散, 三妙丸, 三金片, 五苓散, 五味沙棘散, 十二味翼首散, 十三味榜嘎散, 控涎丸, 良附丸, 黛蛤散, 二妙丸, 大山楂丸, 香附丸, 五味麝香丸, 鼻炎片, 清瘟解毒丸, 木瓜丸, 豨薟丸, 紫雪, 三味蒺藜散, 鷺鷥咯丸, 國公酒, 痛經丸, 固經丸, 石淋通片, 刺五加片, 顛茄酊, 妙濟丸, 益心酮片, 香連片, 胡蜂酒, 坎離砂, 生脈飲, 薑酊, 四逆湯, 龜齡集. – wpi (talk) 10:07, 14 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

Just want to point out that the entry 經方 is different from others listed here and not a name of a specific prescription. Keep the entry 經方. Dokurrat (talk) 04:20, 15 December 2024 (UTC) (edited)Reply

Thanks. I generated this list by searching the reference text, so it was included inadvertently. Agree that it should be kept, but the definition may need some reworking to be less encyclopedic. – wpi (talk) 10:05, 15 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

What is the purpose of this? How can we possibly assess all of these terms against the criteria at once? ---> Tooironic (talk) 10:52, 18 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

@wpi: I agree with @Tooironic that this may be too hard to assess. I think each entry should be checked to make sure they are indeed WT:BRAND or WT:SOP, and each entry should be tagged with {{rfd}}/{{rfv}} accordingly. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 16:39, 27 February 2025 (UTC)Reply

January 2025

極了

Latest comment: 18 days ago6 comments3 people in discussion

Chinese. SoP: 極 + 了. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 06:26, 21 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

Is it, though? You can't make a suffix by just using 極 or 了 by itself. And I don't think you can substitute 極 with another adjective to achieve the same effect (correct me if I'm wrong). ---> Tooironic (talk) 10:51, 18 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Tooironic: 極 is kind of where most of the meaning comes from, so switching it out of course would make it mean something different. That said, it doesn't always need to go with 了; it can go with 啦 or 嚕 as well. There can be a note at 極 saying that it often goes with a l-family particle. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 00:31, 22 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

That is a good point. Thank you for clarifying that. ---> Tooironic (talk) 06:03, 25 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

If 極 can't occur alone in this sense and in this position in cases where the meaning of 了 isn't called for, and if it can only do so when 了 or certain other particles follow it, then this means that the meaning isn't fully compositional, and that there should be entries for each of the combinations.

In MIT's 'Learning Chinese: A Foundation Course in Mandarin' (Part I, Unit 2, p.60), -jíle ‘extremely’ is presented as an 'intensifying suffix', even though it is also analysed into jí ‘the extreme point’ or ‘axis’ and le. This presupposes that the two morphemes co-occur often enough to justify presenting them as a lexical unit.

From a more practical standpoint - if you just hear jíle and don't know how it's spelt, you can easily look it up by typing jile and getting to this entry. If you have to pass through just jí, you need to check 106 different possible characters first.--62.73.72.101 15:57, 16 August 2025 (UTC)Reply

I've added a few more examples of this 極 without 了 or any l-family particle. It would not be good to created all possible combinations with 極 and other particles given these examples. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 01:34, 21 May 2026 (UTC)Reply

chòe-hér

Latest comment: 1 year ago2 comments1 person in discussion

Hokkien. Extended POJ for Quanzhou accents. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 05:19, 22 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

chère-hér

Hokkien. Extended POJ for Quanzhou accents. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 05:19, 22 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

書些

Latest comment: 1 year ago2 comments1 person in discussion

Chinese. SoP: 書 "book" + 些. 些 seems to be a plural marker applicable to most nouns in Sichuanese, with an even wider application than Standard Mandarin 們. 成都方言詞典 p. 39: "用於一般名詞之後，表示多數，使用的範圍很廣：人～都走了｜學生～放假了｜東西～收拾好了没有？｜書～都買來了｜家具～都抹乾凈了｜行李～都捆好了" — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 08:51, 31 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

四川方言词典 pp. 400-401 〈些〉：用于名词之后表多数，使用广泛。名词指人时，相当于“们”：人～大体都来啦！（潮212）｜丈夫停了一下，才把刚才乡里女人讲的话～告诉出来。（艾小选279） — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 19:42, 6 February 2025 (UTC)Reply

February 2025

一甲子

Latest comment: 10 months ago3 comments2 people in discussion

Chinese. SoP. Not a fixed collocation, since it can be said like 一個/箇甲子, 半個/箇甲子, etc. Maraschino Cherry (talk) 10:58, 3 February 2025 (UTC)Reply

Weak delete. It appears in a few monolingual dictionaries, such as 教育部重編國語辭典修訂本, 中華語文大辭典 and 五南國語活用辭典, but it is indeed SoP. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 19:38, 6 February 2025 (UTC)Reply

一甲子 seems more like a collocation commonly used in Taiwan, but only within Taiwan. Maraschino Cherry (talk) 06:19, 30 July 2025 (UTC)Reply

통조림공장

Latest comment: 1 year ago2 comments1 person in discussion

Korean. Lunabunn (talk) 08:45, 11 February 2025 (UTC)Reply

Tagging for deletion. 🌙🐇 ^⠀talk⠀ ^{⠀contribs⠀} 04:52, 29 March 2025 (UTC)Reply

통조림제조

Latest comment: 1 year ago2 comments1 person in discussion

Korean. Lunabunn (talk) 08:47, 11 February 2025 (UTC)Reply

Tagging for deletion. 🌙🐇 ^⠀talk⠀ ^{⠀contribs⠀} 04:51, 29 March 2025 (UTC)Reply

夏慤

Latest comment: 8 months ago3 comments2 people in discussion

Chinese. Rfd-sense: "(Hong Kong, specifically) Cecil Harcourt, Commander of British Military Administration of Hong Kong after World War II". This seems to be an intentional Chinese-style name that uses phono-semantic matching in transliteration. Thus, it is in a form that is pseudo-"family+given name". — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 21:03, 26 February 2025 (UTC)Reply

Question It appears that the term explicitly corresponds to his surname "Harcourt". I understand there are names that are formed so like 彭定康 (“Chris Patten”) (彭定->Patten, 康->Chris(topher)) or 楊慕琦 / 杨慕琦 (yáng mù qí, “Mark Young”) (楊->Young, 慕琦->Mark), but is it the case for Cecil Harcourt?廣九直通車 (talk) 06:07, 18 March 2025 (UTC)Reply

@廣九直通車: Is the "Cecil" part ever transcribed along with Harcourt? If so, maybe this can be considered a surname transcription. Otherwise, it's, as I said, a pseudo-"family+given name" form. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 00:17, 3 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

March 2025

只要目的正當，可以不擇手段

Latest comment: 9 months ago5 comments4 people in discussion

Chinese. Tagged by @ENCN, with the comment "it's definitely not a chinese proverb, and google only has 4000 results." without listing here. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 20:40, 4 March 2025 (UTC)Reply

Delete. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 20:41, 4 March 2025 (UTC)Reply

Send to RFV? In Google Books, past the first page of English proverb collections, the remaining uses appear to be in natural text. —Fish bowl (talk) 00:52, 6 March 2025 (UTC)Reply

It seems that the phrase comes from the translation of Niccolò Machiavelli the Ends Justify the Means. Kethyga (talk) 10:08, 6 April 2025 (UTC)Reply

Keep. 4000 results isn't little. It doesn't have to be a proverb of Chinese origin to be relevant. It's an internationally known proverb, and if this is the standard way of rendering it in Chinese, then it should be retained. If English has an entry for the end justifies the means, why not Chinese? It isn't an originally English proverb either. --62.73.72.101 16:19, 16 August 2025 (UTC)Reply

清澈見底

Latest comment: 1 year ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Chinese. SoP: 清澈 "clear" + 見底 "(clear that) the bottom is visible". — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 22:20, 6 March 2025 (UTC)Reply

갈아타는 곳

Latest comment: 7 months ago4 comments3 people in discussion

Korean. Transparently 갈아타- (garata-) +‎ -는 (-neun) +‎ 곳 (got); constituents can be replaced, e.g. 환승하는 곳, 갈아타는 데, etc. 🌙🐇 ^⠀talk⠀ ^{⠀contribs⠀} 18:32, 9 March 2025 (UTC)Reply

Delete. AG202 (talk) 04:09, 31 March 2025 (UTC)Reply

Keep. It is used as a subway sign in Korea. [22] --YeBoy371 (talk) 10:59, 11 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

That doesn't mean it's not SOP. AG202 (talk) 12:18, 11 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

바람피우다

Latest comment: 7 months ago11 comments4 people in discussion

Korean. Clear SoP, as evidenced by the supposed "alternative form" 바람 을 피우다 (baram-eul piuda). 🌙🐇 ^⠀talk⠀ ^{⠀contribs⠀} 19:33, 29 March 2025 (UTC)Reply

Courtesy ping @Atitarev. 🌙🐇 ^⠀talk⠀ ^{⠀contribs⠀} 19:34, 29 March 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Lunabunn: Multiple inflected forms are easily attestable in Google Books. Standard Korean Dictionary entry [23]. Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 22:23, 29 March 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Atitarev I concur that the line can get blurry; here, 바람피우다 (barampiuda) and 바람 피우다 (baram piuda) and 바람 을 피우다 (baram-eul piuda) all have the exact same meaning and usage. Do we consider this a word just because there is no space? Or because WT:LEMMING? 🌙🐇 ^⠀talk⠀ ^{⠀contribs⠀} 22:40, 29 March 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Lunabunn: This part is a bit annoying in the Korean spelling for me and I don't want to sound disrespectful about the language. We generally support inclusion of words per WT:CFI if they are attestable (labels can be added if they are rare, proscribed, colloquial or marked with {{misspelling of|ko}} or {{alt form|ko}}). Note also that we keep coal mine per Wiktionary:Idioms_that_survived_RFD#Coal_mine_test, so that both coalmine and coal mine are valid.

What is this particular case? Would 바람 피우다 (baram piuda) or 바람을 피우다 (baram-eul piuda) be the main entry and 바람피우다 (barampiuda) an alternative spelling of 바람피우다 (barampiuda)? The term passes CFI, let's just agree what the main form is. You, as the native speaker will know better, which.

BTW, the Japanese 浮気(うわき)する (uwaki suru) can also have the longer form 浮気(うわき)をする (uwaki o suru). Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 23:07, 29 March 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Atitarev I agree it's annoying; no disrespect taken. The issue with applying WT:COALMINE to Korean is that basically every space can be omitted in colloquial Korean, and it's only a gradient from there. Some things that should be spaced according to prescriptive rules are often unspaced if they denote a single conceptual unit, even in formal writing.

する (and its Korean analogue 하다 (hada)) are different because they act like verbalisers. The Korean standard dictionary classifies this usage of 하다 (hada) as suffixal, and indeed since verbs are (mostly) closed classes in both languages, this is the only productive way to form new verbs. My native intuition (though tainted by education) is that this definition should just live in 피우다 (piuda), because this is only one of many cases wherein 피우다 (piuda) acts as a sort of light verb, meaning to exhibit some attitude or behavior. (c.f. 재롱 을 피우다 유난 을 피우다, 땡깡 을 피우다...) This is not a closed class, either, which makes me think this should be a collocation, not its own lemma. I would of course be open to more input from other Korean editors. 🌙🐇 ^⠀talk⠀ ^{⠀contribs⠀} 00:11, 30 March 2025 (UTC)Reply

To add: we could not lemmatise such forms as 바람 피우다 (baram piuda) or 바람 을 피우다 (baram-eul piuda) because they are transparently nonidiomatic; there is a high degree of collocation, but their meanings may be derived from their constituents. 🌙🐇 ^⠀talk⠀ ^{⠀contribs⠀} 00:12, 30 March 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Lunabunn: Sorry for not getting back to you earlier.

To me 바람 을 피우다 (baram-eul piuda) seem very idiomatic. Our coverage of the components is not suffucient how this collocation means "to have an affair". What makes it too obvious to you? Maybe you can add more senses or usage notes to the verb?

I have no issue with the current handling of Korean hada-verbs vs Japanese suru-verbs. They are handled differently, although in many cases, as you know, hada verbs may behave as separate verbs, or at least show some alternative forms as in 그 사람은 공부를 안 해요 ― geu sarameun gongbureul an haeyo ― He doesn't study. There is a consensus, anyway.

Re: I would of course be open to more input from other Korean editors. Sure, let's see if anyone wants to add anything. (Notifying HappyMidnight, Tibidibi, Quadmix77, Kaepoong, AG202, The Editor's Apprentice, Saranamd, Lunabunn): Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 00:35, 31 March 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Atitarev Sorry I didn't make that clearer; we are missing a sense at 피우다 (piuda) meaning "to exhibit a certain attitude or behavior." And thank you for the ping. If other editors prefer to keep per LEMMING (but not COALMINE), I'd be content with that. 🌙🐇 ^⠀talk⠀ ^{⠀contribs⠀} 08:20, 31 March 2025 (UTC)Reply

Leaning keep per WT:LEMMING. Side note: 우리말샘 lists an additional meaning of "허황된 짓을 자꾸 하다." under North Korean, so that should also be added. AG202 (talk) 03:57, 31 March 2025 (UTC)Reply

Strong keep --YeBoy371 (talk) 12:37, 11 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

April 2025

不谷

Latest comment: 1 year ago3 comments2 people in discussion

Chinese. Incorrectly simplified from 不穀. All Chinese dictionaries I looked up claim this word literally stands for "not good". As per Xiandai Hanyu Cidian and Xiandai Hanyu Guifan Cidian, 穀 ought to be kept rather than simplified wherever it means good. In simplified pre-Qin texts published in Mainland, 不穀 is also used instead of *不谷. Maraschino Cherry (talk) 10:06, 20 April 2025 (UTC)Reply

By the way, Both Xiandai Hanyu Guifan Cidian and Cihai 7th list 不穀 as a headword. 不谷 can be seen as a non-standard simplified form. Kethyga (talk) 11:15, 26 April 2025 (UTC)Reply

Still pending attestations on publication. I'd be much grateful if someone could help cite some. Maraschino Cherry (talk) 16:08, 19 May 2025 (UTC)Reply

Thesaurus:原子爆彈

Latest comment: 1 year ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Chinese. 原子爆彈 and removed 原爆 are seldom used in Chinese to refer to atomic bomb. I think there's no need to create a Thesaurus entry. --Kethyga (talk) 11:07, 26 April 2025 (UTC)Reply

To me (I'm from Hong Kong), 原爆 refers to an event of atomic bombing, as in 日本廣島原爆79周年　市長籲世界改變核威懾政策, while 原子彈 is the bomb itself. They are not interchangable. Jonashtand (talk) 08:37, 4 May 2025 (UTC)Reply

May 2025

最寄駅

Latest comment: 1 year ago3 comments3 people in discussion

Is this SOP? Jonashtand (talk) 18:04, 3 May 2025 (UTC)Reply

WT:LEMMING: Digital Daijisen [24] [25] —Fish bowl (talk) 02:00, 11 May 2025 (UTC)Reply

keep Shlyst (talk) 03:34, 15 May 2025 (UTC)Reply

プリキュア

Latest comment: 2 months ago15 comments4 people in discussion

Japanese, tagging alongside English PreCure. As the “name of an individual entity”, this does not have guaranteed inclusion, and, as far as I’m aware, we include no official names for any media — only abbreviations like HP. Polomo47 (talk) 16:53, 9 May 2025 (UTC)Reply

けもフレ, スマブラ, マイクラ#Etymology_2, ソニック#Proper_noun

Same as above. —Fish bowl (talk) 02:05, 11 May 2025 (UTC)Reply

keep Shlyst (talk) 01:45, 12 May 2025 (UTC)Reply

Not a vote. Polomo47 (talk) 10:21, 12 May 2025 (UTC)Reply

スマブラ and マイクラ are clippings/abbreviations. Shlyst (talk) 16:18, 12 May 2025 (UTC)Reply

This is RFD, not RFV; voting is valid. —Fish bowl (talk) 21:46, 30 May 2025 (UTC)Reply

Comment: Oh, yeah, I didn’t realize these are not the official names of the franchises. Consider keeping all except for “Sonic”, which is nevertheless the name of the character, yeah? Polomo47 (talk) 16:27, 12 May 2025 (UTC) Edited by Polomo (talk) 15:36, 11 July 2025 (UTC)Reply

And I didn't realize that プリキュア is the primary name, which does make this not exactly "same as above".

Although the 4 I listed above are shortenings, they are also entirely in official use (公式略称は「スマブラ」。 — w:ja:大乱闘スマッシュブラザーズシリーズ), and as I noted at Talk:クリスタ, these are a dime a dozen nowadays. —Fish bowl (talk) 21:46, 30 May 2025 (UTC)Reply

I never replied. I do want to mention that basically every single video game has an English abbreviation, so I don't think it's something that should get different treatment in Japanese. I’m not exactly of the opinion all of these deserve entries, but I have no grounds to delete it either. I would probably support a proposal that sought to restrict these sorts of entries, but deleting case-by-case... I don't think so. Polomo47 (talk) 18:33, 18 June 2025 (UTC)Reply

Am the creator of the katakana entry. Must disagree for deleting the "Sonikku" sense, and there is good reason why I didn't make a Wiktionary link to full StH name... in which @Shlyst done so inadvertently? The entry was already good enough as last edited it five years ago; disregarding the Lua error. An extra keep vote from yours truly.

There goes my opportunity to add Teirusu after a while... ～ POKéTalker （＝◉＝） 02:55, 30 March 2026 (UTC)Reply

I thought it was allowed to make entries of highly known fictional characters. There's Mickey Mouse and ミッキーマウス Shlyst (talk) 13:08, 31 March 2026 (UTC)Reply

マリオブラザーズ, スマッシュブラザーズ, ソニック・ザ・ヘッジホッグ

Similar to above. —Fish bowl (talk) 02:05, 11 May 2025 (UTC)Reply

keep Shlyst (talk) 01:45, 12 May 2025 (UTC)Reply

See my reasoning above regarding Sonic. Polomo47 (talk) 16:29, 12 May 2025 (UTC) Edited by Polomo (talk) 15:36, 11 July 2025 (UTC)Reply

孤独死

Latest comment: 1 year ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Korean. 孤独 is used in simplified Chinese (孤独 (gūdú)) and Japanese (孤独 (kodoku)), the Korean form should be 孤獨.--Kethyga (talk) 08:33, 11 May 2025 (UTC)Reply

有一天

Latest comment: 1 year ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Chinese. SoP: 有 "there is" + 一天 "one day". — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 04:39, 26 May 2025 (UTC)Reply

死者數

Latest comment: 1 year ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Chinese. SOP? BTW, 死者数 (ししゃすう), 死亡人數／死亡人数 (sǐwáng rénshù). --Kethyga (talk) 04:02, 31 May 2025 (UTC)Reply

June 2025

Undeletion: 僕が先に好きだったのに#Japanese, BSS#Japanese

Latest comment: 10 months ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Created by User:0.02s; deleted by User:Eirikr ("Non-idiomatic sum-of-parts term") (log); but see Nico Nico Pedia, pixiv Encyclopedia, and the writeup by Dr. Wes Robertson / Scripting Japan. Despite the name being an entire sentence, this is the accepted name for a trope familiar enough online to receive its own abbreviation. —Fish bowl (talk) 02:44, 24 June 2025 (UTC)Reply

Re: 僕が先に好きだったのに#Japanese, any such entry would seem to be something for an encyclopedia, not a dictionary. Along similar lines, note that the provided links to Nico Nico Pedia, pixiv Encyclopedia are both encyclopedias. The Robertson article also reads more like encyclopedia content.

I could see more of an argument for a BSS#Japanese entry, which could explain its origins as used in manga / anime content as from the phrase 僕が先に好きだったのに (boku ga saki ni suki datta no ni) -- provided also that any BSS#Japanese entry includes other common expansions, such as at least a few of the ones we see on the JA WP disambig page at w:ja:BSS, or https://eow.alc.co.jp/search?q=BSS, or https://www.weblio.jp/content/BSS. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 21:23, 14 July 2025 (UTC)Reply

スペイン・バスク

Latest comment: 10 months ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Japanese. Means "Spanish Basque Country", SOP. Note that the definition is a red link. Benwing2 (talk) 19:14, 27 June 2025 (UTC)Reply

FWIW, a quick check at google:"スペイン・バスク" shows me 330K putative hits (if you click on the "Tools" text at the top and view the pop-up), collapsing to 185 when paging through (185 hits, not pages). A chunk of these seem to be from YouTube, unsure if they come from many different posters or just a small handful.

Narrowing the search to google books:"スペイン・バスク", the "Tools" pop-up suggests 1M hits, collapsing to 219 when paging through. That said, our target text does not appear in the small extracts in the hits for most of these, and many have no preview, leading me to suspect that a lot of these are false positives. The last hit that includes a preview is this one from page 17 of the hits, but if you click through to that "MUFFIN & CAKE" cookbook, you'll see that our target phrase "スペイン・バスク" is not actually found anywhere in that work. (Side note: WTF is Google doing with this kind of garbage non-hit?) It's not until I page backwards to page 12 of the hits that I see our target text actually appear in text extracted from the book.

→ Despite the low numbers of confirmable search results, I do see enough to meet WT:CFI. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 19:42, 25 July 2025 (UTC)Reply

July 2025

食食

Latest comment: 11 months ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Chinese. Rfd-sense for Hokkien verb senses:

to continually eat; to regularly consume; to ingest (repeatedly again and again)
to eat up; to use up (thoroughly or completely)
to misappropriate (money, valuables, etc.); to embezzle (thoroughly or continually)
(board games) to capture; to devour; to kill; to destroy (thoroughly or continually)

These are predictable senses from the senses of 食 and how reduplication works in Hokkien. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 07:42, 3 July 2025 (UTC)Reply

明くる日

Latest comment: 10 months ago4 comments4 people in discussion

Japanese. SoP? 明くる Will Hendrix (talk) 18:49, 12 July 2025 (UTC)Reply

I think we should keep, with this basically being a fossilized term. Also per WT:LEMMING, this is included as an entry in basically every ja-ja dictionary I checked. I don't feel strongly either way though. Horse Battery (talk) 18:18, 14 July 2025 (UTC)Reply

I think I agree with @Horse Battery — I think a parallel can also be made to 翌日, which is also sum-of-parts, but likely unquestionably includable. It can be kept around and be helpful as one of a few extra common collocations of 明くる. (In fact, in my IME, I can't even type 明くる by itself, only when I add the ひ). Kiril kovachev (talk・contribs) 20:38, 14 July 2025 (UTC)Reply

As a counterpoint, 翌日 (yokujitsu) is an integrated two-morpheme term, it has a specific pitch-accent contour, and it is first attested in roughly 900 CE as what appears to be a borrowing in toto from some variant of Middle Chinese 翌日 (MC yik nyit).

Meanwhile, 明くる (akuru) on its own also has a specific pitch-accent contour (which it would not if it were only ever used in compounds), monolingual Japanese sources include this but often not the arguably-phrasal 明くる日 (akuru hi) (see 明くる in Digital-Daijisen, Nihon Kokugo Daijiten (NKD); meanwhile 明くる日 appears in Digital-Daijisen but not the NKD, nor in my local copy of Daijirin).

明くる (akuru) is also used with other following nouns in ways that are clearly not fossilized set phrases, such as the example given in my copy of Daijirin as 明くる三十一日 (akuru san-jū-ichi nichi, “the coming 31st [day of the month]”).

All that said, I have no objection to keeping an entry for the phrase 明くる日 (akuru hi), so long as we also maintain an entry for the standalone attributive-verb-form entry at 明くる (akuru, “the coming, the following”, used attributively to modify units of time). ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 21:38, 14 July 2025 (UTC)Reply

サーティワン

Latest comment: 10 months ago3 comments2 people in discussion

Japanese.

This is simply a phonetic spelling of the "31" part of Baskin Robbins' logo. I don't think WT:BRAND gives a pass for informal versions of brand names created in other languages. Chuck Entz (talk) 20:35, 20 July 2025 (UTC)Reply

It is not even the informal version; Baskin Robbins is officially B-R サーティワンアイスクリーム / B-R 31 ICE CREAM in Japan. Delete. —Fish bowl (talk) 04:55, 21 July 2025 (UTC)Reply

I know it only as what people call the aforementioned in conversation. Delete. Citations page too. Haplogy (話)

Citations:サーティワン

A link to someone's Monster Hunter screenshot on Twitter, with the caption "senpai gave me Baskin Robbins". what? —Fish bowl (talk) 04:58, 21 July 2025 (UTC)Reply

August 2025

toranpukyou

Latest comment: 7 months ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Japanese.

Two issues here:

This not the romanization style used on this site. It should be toranpukyō or possibly toranpu-kyō.
What was incorrectly romanized may not belong in the first place. It does not exist yet--the user who created it (see Special:Contributions/199.245.156.253) added only the romanization and not the lemma itself. Probably, they were thinking of トランプ狂, which is simply トランプ "playing cards" + suffix 狂 "enthusiast" = "card freak" or "card games enthusiast." WWWJDIC does not have it. My searches for attestation online were fruitless, but it's hard due to (a) the fact that it's also the name of an ancient video game and (b) the present political situation. Haplogy (話)

Delete. This seems to be a SOP. The suffix is productive and there seems to nothing special about the term compared to other terms like 探偵小説狂 (detective story enthusiast) and チューリップ狂 (tulip mania). Whym (talk) 02:40, 16 August 2025 (UTC)Reply

As a side-note, I'm not aware of any policy ruling out alternative romanizations, and there have been spotty threads over the years about including alternative romanized forms. This particular term toranpukyou (toranpukyou) would be in the so-called "waapuro roomaji" system.

Personally, I'm not opposed to such entries, provided that they are not presented as the "main" romanization spelling, as this improves searchability / discoverability / usability for our site. A user who doesn't know kana input nor the Modified Hepburn system we use here, but does know waapuro, would thus still be able to find the term.

That said, I agree that this particular term appears to be SOP, and should be deleted for that reason. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 16:51, 15 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

ニホン

Latest comment: 7 months ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Japanese. This redirect seems inappropriate. — Polomo ⟨⁠ ⁠oi!⁠ ⁠⟩ · 22:47, 22 August 2025 (UTC)Reply

Ya, delete as a non-lexical alternative spelling. I'm confused that anyone took the effort to create the entry in the first place. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 19:17, 15 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

お動画

Latest comment: 7 months ago3 comments3 people in discussion

Japanese.

Sum of parts? And a rather unlikely one. I realize that some terms of the same pattern are acceptable, e.g. お茶. See Category:Japanese terms prefixed with 御 or Category:Japanese terms prefixed with お. To be honest, I don't know Wiktionary's position on deciding whether a term of this form (honorific prefix + noun) is acceptable. Can anyone produce a relevant past discussion? All I can say is that something like お茶 or ご協力 would sound rude and strange without the prefix. Others like お金 are not strange without the honorific prefix, but sound a bit direct, and you'd generally be better off with the honorific. On the other hand, 動画 is totally normal without an honorific prefix, as opposed to "お動画" which is new to me. Haplogy (話) 06:15, 25 August 2025 (UTC)Reply

Yes. It seems like just an instance of the productive prefix お. Maybe we can instead add a usage note mentioning examples like this in お, to show how wide the usage can be. To me, おシェアします was more unexpected to see, but that subjective experience alone does not justify an entry here. Whym (talk) 10:45, 3 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

Nearly anything can be prepended with the honorific / beautifying prefix お- (o-). Not every such resulting word is treated as a lexical item, however. While お茶 (ocha, “tea”) has become fully lexicalized, おビール (o-bīru, “honorable beer?”) has not, and may well come across to native speakers as either annoying or mildly ridiculous. (For those curious, see also the thread at Wiktionary:Etymology_scriptorium/2025/September#美味しい, and the YouTube Shorts video mentioned there.)

In this case, お動画 (o-dōga, “honorable movie?”) gets 43K ostensible google hits at google:"お動画", collapsing to just 110 when paging through. If I click the "repeat the search with the omitted results included" link at the bottom of the eleventh page of hits, and page through that, I only get six more hits, for a total of 116.

Meanwhile, google:"動画" -"お動画" gets 1.2B hits (that's "B" as in billion), and paging through showed me 312 before I got the "repeat the search with the omitted results included" link. Clicking that and paging through, I got 272. (Google is sometimes very weird.)

Over in Google Books, google books:"お動画" nets us 1M ostensible hits, collapsing to 27 when paging through. google books:"動画" -"お動画" also indicates 1M ostensible hits, collapsing to 167 when paging through.

As additional data points, お動画 is not recognized by the Microsoft IME as a valid spelling, and no monolingual Japanese dictionary that I currently have access to includes an entry for お動画.

I'd say delete as non-lexical SOP. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 17:13, 15 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

港樂

Latest comment: 3 months ago5 comments3 people in discussion

Chinese. WT:NSE. – wpi (talk) 08:31, 30 August 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Wpi: Is this specifically about WT:COMPANY? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 05:18, 15 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Justinrleung: I don't think this is strictly a company, but now you've mentioned it, I suppose that could also be applied here. – wpi (talk) 15:37, 16 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

港樂 may refer to the popular music in Hong Kong (seems mostly referred by people outside HK, as I have not heard of the term in HK as a Hongkonger). I think it can be kept upon adding a sense about that. Sun8908 (talk) 03:14, 20 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Added a noun sense about the popular music in Hong Kong. However, I think the proper noun sense is about WT:COMPANY and hence that sense should be deleted. Sun8908 (talk) 07:07, 13 February 2026 (UTC)Reply

毛沢東

Latest comment: 7 months ago7 comments4 people in discussion

Japanese. Name of an individual person. — SURJECTION ^{/ T / C / L /} 15:24, 31 August 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Surjection Is that bad? There is one thing about the entry which is helpful, in my opinion, which goes beyond a mere encyclopedia stub, which is the pronunciation of his name in Japanese. One thing is Mao Zedong, which, if it existed, would just be an unadapted borrowing of his Chinese name, i.e. just the most obvious, basic usage of a foreign name in a different language. On the other hand, in Japanese, his name is not just transparently 「まおつぇーてぅん」 or something of the sort, it's 「もうたくとう」, with the specific choice made to render his name using the corresponding Japanese readings of the man's original name, in Chinese characters. This is not a given, and some names in Japanese even from the Sinosphere are (also) rendered as they are in the original language.

In this way, I think this entry serves purpose just like John the Baptist: in English, we have our own name for him, and don't just refer to him by the most original Koine Greek or whatever, because that's a real lexical difference that exists specifically when referring to a particular named person. In my opinion, therefore, it's of interest for people to know that "the Japanese localization of 'Mao Zedong' is もうたくとう". This logic can likewise be applied to other Sinosphere kanji readings, such as 平壌 (Pyongang, also can be read as 「へいじょう」), or 朴正煕 (Park Chung Hee, also can be read as 「ぼくせいき」). Kiril kovachev (talk・contribs) 18:46, 31 August 2025 (UTC)Reply

"Is that bad?" Yes, see e.g. WT:NSE and precedent (Talk:Joan of Arc). — SURJECTION ^{/ T / C / L /} 18:50, 31 August 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Surjection Eh, okay, I see that. That's kind of lame, as I argued above I see the entry as being useful and don't care to see it deleted. But, if that's what everyone in general considers to be the correct thing to do, then that's fine. May you please comment on whether there is any merit to the argument that I made, in particular due to the interpretation by Japanese people of foreign names using their own readings? Kiril kovachev (talk・contribs) 19:10, 31 August 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Surjection, I'm curious -- if WT:NSE applies, why do we still have an entry for John the Baptist?

By analogy to that, for Japanese 毛沢東 (Mō Takutō), I do see some evidence of this used metaphorically, as we see in hits at google:"毛沢東する", a bit like saying "go all Mao Zedong on something" or just using the name as a verb in English. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 17:22, 15 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

We probably shouldn't. But one can argue that Biblical characters are an exception due to the fact that their names are properly translated. — SURJECTION ^{/ T / C / L /} 17:53, 15 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

Delete per WT:NSE (No individual person should be listed as a sense in any entry whose page title includes both a given name or diminutive and a family name or patronymic.). — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 05:20, 15 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

September 2025

反華

Latest comment: 7 months ago3 comments3 people in discussion

Chinese. Tagged by @ENCN with the reason “SoP” but not listed. --dring sim 12:17, 6 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

I think we need to split it into two senses (anti-Chinese / anti-PRC) as zhwiki does. This case is less SoP than 訪+X, I think. Ping me User:内存溢出的猫 plz!^📝瞄？_💬喵! 02:59, 5 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

反中

Chinese. Tagged by @ENCN with the reason “SoP” but not listed. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 04:57, 15 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

三兄

Latest comment: 8 months ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Chinese. Tagged by @ENCN with the reason “SOP” without listing here. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 05:04, 15 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

高解像電視

Latest comment: 8 months ago4 comments2 people in discussion

Chinese. Tagged by an IP without listing here. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 05:09, 15 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

高畫質電視

Tagged by an IP without listing here. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 05:12, 15 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

高清晰度電視

Tagged by @ENCN without listing here. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 05:12, 15 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

HDTV (high-definition television) is more common in Chinese, same to 高清晰度電視. You may add {{lb|zh|rare}} in 高清晰度電視 / 高清晰度电视 (gāo qīngxīdù diànshì). HerrGutmannsWiki (talk) 20:33, 20 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

October 2025

縣政府

Latest comment: 6 months ago5 comments3 people in discussion

Chinese. Clear SoP of 縣 / 县 (“county”) + 政府 (zhèngfǔ, “government”).

While I understand that there's an entry in the MoE Mandarin Chinese Dictionary (thus there is going to be users arguing WT:LEMMING), the entry at that Dictionary is an encyclopedic description of the term, so LEMMING should not be applied, and WT:ENCYCLOPEDIC should be applied to remove that entry.廣九直通車 (talk) 13:21, 4 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

Comment: This is analogous to 市政府. Should both be deleted? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 16:56, 7 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

But 市政府 can also mean "city hall", not only "government" (a organization). Kethyga (talk) 05:09, 2 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Kethyga: Can 縣政府 be used also as something like the building where the county government/council meets? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 21:15, 8 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Justinrleung I think so. Kethyga (talk) 23:05, 8 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

妖妖舞

Latest comment: 4 months ago3 comments2 people in discussion

Chinese. Tagged by @ENCN with the comment "brand name and homophonic". — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 21:22, 10 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

There were days when this cloud drive brand was very popular, and this word is used in many online forums. Also I don't think being homophonic makes it the same as the original brand name, esp in Chinese. Ping me User:内存溢出的猫 plz!^📝瞄？_💬喵! 17:04, 19 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Seems more of an RFV issue. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 06:13, 26 January 2026 (UTC)Reply

變臉像翻書一樣

Latest comment: 7 months ago3 comments3 people in discussion

Chinese. Tagged by @ENCN, with the following comment: SOP and it's usually phrased as "变脸像翻书一样快". — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 04:47, 11 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

I think it's a idiom. Kethyga (talk) 21:56, 12 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

I thought it's usually phrased as "变脸像翻书一样快" as well, but I found:

《人间失格》translated by 高詹灿, 袁斌, →ISBN: "没想到人类变脸就像翻书一样简单。"
《黑白之城》by 苏丹, 文汇出版社, →ISBN: "变脸像翻书一样迅速，收放自如。"

Ping me User:内存溢出的猫 plz!^📝瞄？_💬喵! 02:52, 5 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

耳朵聾

Latest comment: 6 months ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Chinese. Rfd-sense: "deaf". Tagged by @Musetta6729. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 05:08, 11 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

Usage note for 聾 writes "the term 耳聾／耳聋 (ěrlóng) may occasionally be used instead due to homophony with 龍／龙 (lóng, “dragon”)" and I think 耳朵聾 is also the case. E.g. one will say “你耳朵聾了嗎” to emphasize the emotion. — Ping me User:内存溢出的猫 plz!^📝瞄？_💬喵! 02:33, 10 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

メリットとデメリット

Latest comment: 7 months ago5 comments4 people in discussion

Japanese. SOP: メリット + と + デメリット. 20041027 tatsu (talk) 17:09, 12 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

Keep. Shlyst (talk) 17:31, 13 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

Keep. Would メリット・デメリット also be needed as an alternative form? --YeBoy371 (talk) 23:24, 13 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

I'm leaning towards keep.

We have English pros and cons as a kind of set phrase.
google:"メリットとデメリット" produces tons of hits, likewise suggesting that this specific phrase is in common use.

‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 17:26, 15 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

It also seems like there needs to be further discussion about whether to add メリット・デメリット(alternative form) page. YeBoy371 (talk) 16:53, 17 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

男の人, 女の人

Latest comment: 7 months ago18 comments3 people in discussion

Both clearly SOP. These are different from 男の子 (otokónoko) or 女の子 (onnánoko), both univerbations of their components, as clearly indicated by their single accent. — Sartma ^{【𒁾𒁉 ● 𒊭 𒌑𒊑𒀉𒁲】} 09:22, 15 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

I'm borderline on this.

Most monolingual dictionaries don't include these, from what I can find. JA Wikt seems to be an exception.

Some bilingual dictionaries have these, or at least one of them, such as JDIC and Eijiro (https://www.edrdg.org/cgi-bin/wwwjdic/wwwjdic?1MUJ男の人, https://www.edrdg.org/cgi-bin/wwwjdic/wwwjdic?1MUJ女の人, https://eow.alc.co.jp/search?q=女の人).

Interestingly, the OJAD Online Japanese Accent Dictionary, whose main UI is in Japanese, does have entries for both (男の人, 女の人). ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 17:34, 15 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Eirikr They definitely are SOP, though. At least phonetically. The fact that the accent of otokó and onná get neutralised when attacching ~no is regular, and points to those words to be considered separated from the following hito̽. For similar reasons we don't have otoko no katá/onna no katá. I would definitely want these terms to be in a usage note to otokó and onná, being a more polite way to say those words, but I can't see why they should have an entry of their own. The only excuse could be that in otoko no hitó/onna no hitó, the hitó seams to always be accented, and that's not something one would otherwise know, as 人 can be either hito or hitó. — Sartma ^{【𒁾𒁉 ● 𒊭 𒌑𒊑𒀉𒁲】} 09:30, 16 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Eirikr: Regarding JDIC and Eijirō: the first is not created by Japanese speakers and I'm not too sure about their cretiria to include and revise lemmata, since anyone can just add new entries at any time. The second is a Japanese-English dictionary, so criteria might be different. I can imagine a Japanese native wanting to know if there is a way to say otoko no hitó, as opposed to just otokó, thinking that there might be a difference in English, too. — Sartma ^{【𒁾𒁉 ● 𒊭 𒌑𒊑𒀉𒁲】} 15:36, 16 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

Hmm, hmm... Regarding pitch accent contours, the final downstep in 男の人 (otoko no hitó) seems somewhat irregular, in that 人 (hito) in isolation has no downstep. By way of comparison, we also have the no-downstep term 節句 (sekku) and the compound 男の節句 (otoko no sekku), which also has no downstep. Slowly going through other attested lexical terms ending in 〜の人, and for which I can find a pitch accent, a few have a final downstep while others do not. This difference in pitch contour of the longer phrase appears to be a property of how 人 (hito) combines with other words, in which case this could suggest that, even as a semantic SOP, this has specific phonological processes at work that are non-obvious and may merit documenting in an entry. This would presumably explain the inclusion of 男の人 in OJAD, as you suggest further above. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 17:15, 16 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Eirikr I'm not home at the moment and can't check with my Japanese accent manual, I'll do it next week. I remember that hito̽ behaved similarly to tokí, which in relative clauses changes accent and becomes tóki, as in "ano hon wo katta tóki, yasúkatta!" and not *ano hon wo katta tokí, .... But I'm not 100% sure. If that's the case, hitó instead of hito would further indicate that it's not a single word. — Sartma ^{【𒁾𒁉 ● 𒊭 𒌑𒊑𒀉𒁲】} 08:19, 17 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Eirikr Actually, I've just checked 男の人は、女の人は、村の人は、この店の人は、昨日料理をした人は on Suzuki-kun, and the results seem to confirm what I've just said. They are all given with hitó, instead of hito: otoko no hitó, onna no hitó, mura no hitó, kono mise no hitó, kinô ryôri wo sita hitó. It seems to be just a regular accent rule of hito when it's the head of a verb/noun phrase. I'd say we have our confirmation that otoko/onna no hitó is a SOP. — Sartma ^{【𒁾𒁉 ● 𒊭 𒌑𒊑𒀉𒁲】} 08:35, 17 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

If the downstep-final pitch of hito is fully predictable, then that removes my concerns about any phonological non-SOP-ness. And if this phonological shift in hito when appearing as the head noun of a phrase is consistent, we should include a note about this in the Japanese 人 entry. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 18:09, 17 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Eirikr It does look like that, but give me a couple days to check my accent manual too once I get home. I never really trust Suzuki-kun 100%, I'd feel much better if I found an actual description of this rule. — Sartma ^{【𒁾𒁉 ● 𒊭 𒌑𒊑𒀉𒁲】} 22:53, 17 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Eirikr Ok, I found this on pag. 707 of my pdf of Samuel Martin's A Reference Grammar of Japanese (text in bold is mine):

The final accentuation of sitá 'below', ué 'above', utí 'midst; home', hitó 'person', hí 'day', and tokoró 'place' holds only when these words are modified by an adnominal element present in the surface structure; otherwise they are atonic. But Hamako Chaplin treats sitá as always atonic; for that reason, here I have marked it with the optional accent cancellation (-). And utí(-) is always atonic for certain speakers; others make it oxytonic when modified; but for some speakers the word is oxytonic even when unmodified.

We should definitely add a note about accent change to all those words. — Sartma ^{【𒁾𒁉 ● 𒊭 𒌑𒊑𒀉𒁲】} 23:23, 17 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Eirikr Ok, checked on my Japanese accent manual, and it confirms the above, too. Here's what it says after giving a long list of sentences containing 2-mora nouns with their accents:

以上(the list)の中には、同じ言葉でも、単独で用いられる場合と修飾語が付く場合、あるいは一般的な意味と特殊な意味に使われる場合とではアクセントが異なるものもあるので、注意してみてください（上、家（うち）、国、事、頃、先、下、時、何、人、儘、右、元、物、など）。

For 人, the sentence he gives is: "shōjíkí na hitó wa hito ni sukaréru".— Sartma ^{【𒁾𒁉 ● 𒊭 𒌑𒊑𒀉𒁲】} 14:49, 20 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

Excellent, thank you for the digging!

FWIW, the NHK Hatsuon Accent Dictionary and Daijirin only give atonal / 0 / no-downstep for 人 (hito). NHK has a sample sentence showing the pitch, but they only include the one example and it's where the term is used as a bare noun with no modifying clause. Daijirin doesn't explicitly show pitch for sample sentences, but presumably they should exemplify the indicated senses and pitches -- and despite indicating atonal / 0 / no-downstep, a few of they examples do show 人 (hito) with a preceding adnominal, including the 男の人 (otoko no hito) that started this thread.

Shinmeikai lists pitch by each of the six senses they list for 人 (hito), and all show atonal / 0 / no-downstep, with sense 2 also having the alternative pitch contour of oxytonal / 2 / downstep at the end. This sense is described as 「社会を構成している人。個人。」 They don't include sample sentences for all senses, but where they do, all samples use 人 (hito) as a bare unmodified noun -- except for sense 2.

In light of the above, I find myself thinking that either the editors were ignorant of the change in pitch in these constructions, or they disagreed or were working with a different speech community who used this word mostly with an atonal pitch contour, even when preceded by an adnominal modifying clause.

→ Should we include any caveats in any such explanatory note in our entry? "Some sources say X, some say Y, there are also dialectal and regional differences, etc. etc." kind of thing? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 17:43, 20 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Eirikr In 人 I just added "when preceded by a modifier" as a note to the oxytonal version in the pronunciation section. That would be enough for me. I doubt the editors who added 男の人 knew about the accent rule, since it's not very well known even by people who actually learned their pitch accents. I myself, despite being aware of accent changes for certain nouns when preceded by a modifier, had forgotten about "hito" being one of them. I wouldn't mention dialectal/regional differences, as long as it's clear we are talking about the standard language, and the pronunciation sections does make it clear.

As for the 男の人 and 女の人, independently of how "hito" is pronounced, it is still clearly a SOP (otokó becoming otoko before no clearly shows we are dealing with a regular modifier), so I'd remove it. I'd add it on a note under 人 and I'd do the same with 男の方 and 女の方 under 方. — Sartma ^{【𒁾𒁉 ● 𒊭 𒌑𒊑𒀉𒁲】} 10:38, 21 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Eirikr In the end I went for keeping 男の人 and 女の人 as prases. That's what they are after all, and that way we get to keep an entry and can show their accent. What do you think? — Sartma ^{【𒁾𒁉 ● 𒊭 𒌑𒊑𒀉𒁲】} 12:09, 3 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Looks good to me. I went ahead and added etym sections to both, for completeness and clarity. Cheers! ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 18:37, 3 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Why phrase instead of noun? Is the reasoning that it is analyzable as a sum of parts containing の? Would these also be phrases in that case?

Shlyst (talk) 19:12, 3 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Shlyst No, it's not because of the の. It's a bit long to read, but the explanation is in the thread above.

As for the examples you gave, some definitely are phrases, some are just nouns:

男の子 (otokónoko): This is one word. It's clear by the fact that otokó retains its accent. If it was a phrase, it would loose its accent before ~no, becoming otokọ no ko.
手の甲 (ténokō): This is one word. If it was a frase, both elements would keep their accents (té no kô), but kô looses its accent becoming kō, clear sign of univerbation.
背の高い (sé no takái): This is clearly a phrase/collocation, not an adjective. If it was an adjective you should be able to use it as one, so you should be able to say *あの子は背の高いですね。 This shouldn't even have its own page, it's just a SOP. I'll ask for deletion after posting this. Same goes for 背が高い. They're not "adjectives".
言葉の綾 (kotobạ no ayá): This is clearly a phrase/collocation. 綾 (ayá) alone means "turn of phrase used for retorical effect". That's why you also have variations like 文章の綾 (búnshō no ayá), if you're talking about written text.
世の中 (yonónaka): This is one word. It would be yó no náka or yo no náka"' if it was a phrase. The fact that "nó" is accented, clearly points to univerbation.
髪の毛 (kaminóke): One word. Same as yonónaka. If it was a phrase it would be kamị no ke.
気の毒 (kinodóku): One word. The accent on ~dóku clearly points to univerbation. If it was a phrase it would be ki no dokú.
日の出 (hinode): This could be both, phonetically speaking. I'd argue that this is one word on semantic basis, since it's the name of a natural phenomenon, and it only refers to that. It's not a general expression like 水の出 (mizu no de, “how water comes out”) or other meanings of the noun 出 (de). But there would be arguments to consider this a phrase, too. Japanese monolingual dictionaries do have it as its own entry, though, so I'd follow them. — Sartma ^{【𒁾𒁉 ● 𒊭 𒌑𒊑𒀉𒁲】} 11:55, 4 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Keep Shlyst (talk) 17:59, 3 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

氽燙

Latest comment: 21 days ago4 comments2 people in discussion

Chinese. Tagged by @ENCN with this comment: “unlike 汆, 氽 doesn't mean "to blanch" according to chinese dictionaries, 1.某些地区指物体在水上漂浮。2.某些地区指用油炸。”. Pinging @Mar vin kaiser, who created this entry. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 01:04, 21 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

氽湯

Chinese. Tagged by @ENCN, with the comment: “should be 汆汤, chinese people often say cuan1tang1. unlike 汆, 氽 doesn't mean "to blanch" according to chinese dictionaries, 1.某些地区指物体在水上漂浮。2.某些地区指用油炸。” — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 01:14, 21 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Justinrleung: Both 氽湯／氽汤 (tǔntāng) and 氽燙／氽烫 (tǔntàng), I seem to have just copied it from CC-CEDICT Chinese-English Dictionary. Whether it's an error of the source itself, I don't know. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 14:14, 21 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

Changed to RFV since seems like an issue of verification (perhaps of a misspelling). — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 23:29, 17 May 2026 (UTC)Reply

給到

Latest comment: 6 months ago3 comments2 people in discussion

Chinese. SoP: 給 "give (something to someone)" + 到 (successful completion verbal complement) = "to successfully give something to someone". — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 01:08, 21 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

My friends and I have seen multiple discussions about this phrase; we thought the phrase is from IT industry's corporate speak. There is even an app named after it. Also there are multiple threads on zh:北大未名BBS:

[2022/8/5 8:12] How did the usage of "给到" emerge?

It is usually seen in corporate settings (我们这边给到的方案 - "the proposal given to you from our side"), and customer service (我们这边会给到您 - "our side will give it to you").

Did it originate from the English "give to"? Or was it imported from Hong Kong or Taiwan? (It's possible "give to" arrived in Hong Kong/Taiwan first, then was re-exported to the mainland)? Or did it develop from local colloquial speech?

via PKU Weiming BBS Top Ten (https://bbs.pku.edu.cn/v2/post-read.php?bid=63&threadid=18336290)

[2022/8/30 9:42] Lately, I'm absolutely annoyed by the two terms: "给到" and "一个" (one/a).

...

According to 彭雅琪 (2025), “汉语新兴结构“给到”考察”, in (硕士学位论文)‎^[26], 上海师范大学,

while structurally similar to other V+到 constructions, 給到 has a wider range of use, and 給 does not meet the typical qualifications for the V in the V+到 structure; it is a result of the continuous grammaticalization. Ping me User:内存溢出的猫 plz!^📝瞄？_💬喵! 02:45, 5 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

田雞腿

Latest comment: 7 months ago2 comments1 person in discussion

Chinese. Tagged by @ENCN, with the comment: "sop, 田鸡+腿, 田鸡 can be replaced by any animal." — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 01:09, 21 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

青蛙腿

Chinese. Tagged by @ENCN, with the comment: "sop, 青蛙+腿, 青蛙 can be replaced by any animal." — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 01:10, 21 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

滑偽

Latest comment: 7 months ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Chinese. Tagged by @ENCN with the following comment: "brand name, homophonic and insulting". — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 01:21, 21 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

Does the current citations page suffice? Ping me User:内存溢出的猫 plz!^📝瞄？_💬喵! 02:22, 5 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

瓦爾喀

Latest comment: 1 month ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Chinese. Tagged by @Maraschino Cherry without a reason provided. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 01:21, 21 October 2025 (UTC)Reply

Sorry for the belated reply. My reason is that sense #1 is an individual of little importance that ought not to be included in any non-encyclopedic dictionary, whereas 索尼 (Suǒní) is also a Manchu official, apart from his high ranking, that word has multiple meanings so that it should be included. Back to the entry nominated by me, it actually has one useful sense, which is nothing more than a see-also sense. I looked up dictionaries like Ciyuan and Cihai, none included this without ～部. Maraschino Cherry (talk) 18:38, 28 April 2026 (UTC)Reply

November 2025

背が高い/背の高い, 背が低い/背の低い

Latest comment: 5 months ago70 comments6 people in discussion

These are all clearly SOP. — Sartma ^{【𒁾𒁉 ● 𒊭 𒌑𒊑𒀉𒁲】} 12:19, 4 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Agreed, these are SOP, and are not treated as integral terms in any monolingual JA resources I have to hand. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 18:30, 4 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Also delete as SOP. —Fish bowl (talk) 23:36, 9 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Weak keep, the "height" part as 背 is generally not translated to maintain natural language and is mainly treated as a grammatically figurative component. TNMPChannel (talk) 10:11, 11 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

@TNMPChannel: Sorry, I'm not sure I understand your reasoning. How a term is translated in another language should not be relevant to whether those expressions are SOP or not. We can have those phrases as collocations or examples under 背 (sé). If we keep them, we need at least change "adjective" to "phrase", because none of those expressions are "adjectives". — Sartma ^{【𒁾𒁉 ● 𒊭 𒌑𒊑𒀉𒁲】} 12:10, 5 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

They can count as a phrase, and the Head template can say “i-adjective” TNMPChannel (talk) 12:23, 5 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

@TNMPChannel I'm not sure I understand what you mean with "the Head template can say i-adjective". If they are phreses, the head template will be {{ja-phrase}}. It would be wrong to consider the whole phrase as an adjective, and especially so for the versions with の. The implication is that you wuold be able to say things like *お父さんは背の高いです, wich are absolutly wrong. — Sartma ^{【𒁾𒁉 ● 𒊭 𒌑𒊑𒀉𒁲】} 13:51, 5 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

Okay, I’d settle with it as a phrase, not an adjective since you said it does not flow well in the above sentence unlike something like 頭(ず)が高(たか)い (zu ga takai) which have a single meaning together. Also, I remember there are の construct phrases like かけがえのない (kakegae no nai) being used as an adjective. TNMPChannel (talk) 14:14, 5 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

@TNMPChannel Those are all phrases. And if there is a の, it's a phrase that can only be used as a modifier, not as a predicate. All these need to be changed to "phrase". — Sartma ^{【𒁾𒁉 ● 𒊭 𒌑𒊑𒀉𒁲】} 14:39, 5 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

頭が高い has an idiomatic meaning like 頭(あたま)がいい (atama ga ii). Without the が or の the phrases above actually count as an adjective as you said, however 背 is only seen with those particles more commonly than those two. TNMPChannel (talk) 14:48, 5 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

It's seen with both particles more commonly because it's just a SOP, and like any other relative sentence in Japanese, it can take interchangeably either が or の. If anything, that's further proof that the phrases with 背 are just SOP. — Sartma ^{【𒁾𒁉 ● 𒊭 𒌑𒊑𒀉𒁲】} 15:06, 5 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

keep Shlyst (talk) 23:53, 11 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Shlyst Do you care to explain why? — Sartma ^{【𒁾𒁉 ● 𒊭 𒌑𒊑𒀉𒁲】} 12:11, 5 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

These deletion requests drive me nuts. Is the reasoning for deletion that it can be analyzed as separate terms containing が? In that case, would you also remove: 頭が良い, 頭が高い, 襤褸が出る, 虫がいい, 耳が早い, 取り返しがつかない, 頭が固い Shlyst (talk) 17:21, 5 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Shlyst Why do they drive you nuts? It would help if you tried to explain your thoughts with a bit more clarity and less impressionistically. The reason for deletion is that those phrases are just SOP: their meaning is directly derivable by the sum of the words they contain. We can keep them as phrases, if you want, since they can be considered collocations, but they are no different than 鼻が長い (hana ga nagái) in the sentence 像は鼻が長い (zô wa hana ga nagài), or 鼻の長い (hana no nagái) in 鼻の長い像 (hana no nagái zô).That's why you can have sentences like 女の背はそれほど高くはない" (onnạ no sé wa sorehodo tákaku wa nái). If that was a fixed expression, a one-word adjective, you would never be able to split its components that way.

As for the other expressions you gave: they are all phrases, collocations and idioms, but they are pretty much all SOP, yes. The proof is that their adverbial forms given in the entries are all ridiculous. You can't take the adjective in a fixed expression, put it in the adverbial form and get an adverb that maintains the meaning of that fixed expression. — Sartma ^{【𒁾𒁉 ● 𒊭 𒌑𒊑𒀉𒁲】} 18:28, 5 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

Drives me nuts because I never understood it. Aside from obviously bogus entries, how can anyone think that they're helping this site by actively removing information from it? 背が高い literally translates to "high of stature," and 鼻が長い to "nose is long" as analyzable by terms 鼻, が, 長い; the difference being that the former is non-literal and the most remarkably common Japanese term for the notable adjective tall, alto, grand, 高 (gāo), высокий (vysokij) and the latter a bog-standard sum of parts (perhaps if long-nosed or big-nosed existed or were a notable adjective, 鼻が長い could hold up to our scrutiny).

You're right about the adverbial part. For that I've just removed the adverbial inflection from those pages. I believe that problem comes from calling it "adverbial" instead of "conjunctive." For example, the sentence: "あの人は頭がよく、賢い人だ。" Shlyst (talk) 19:52, 5 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Shlyst: I'm not proposing to "remove" information, though. Just put it where it belongs: in {{usex}} and {{collocation}} within the page of an entry. Despite what you seem to believe, 背が高い (sé ga takái) is not different from 鼻が長い (hana ga nagái). You are thinking from a "translation" perspective that doesn't correctly represent how Japanese works. That's why no monolingual dictionary has an entry for that phrase, but only for 背 (se/sé) and 高い (takái). Maybe you just need to accept the reality that not all languages work the same. Reality should not drive you nuts. — Sartma ^{【𒁾𒁉 ● 𒊭 𒌑𒊑𒀉𒁲】} 22:10, 5 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

This is an English-multilingual dictionary website, so it's hard to imagine why you would complain that I'm thinking from a "translation" perspective, nor why the highly notable term 背が高い is not deserving of its own page. I find it in dictionaries and JLPT vocabulary lists. Again, do you also propose to delete all those other terms containing が? It's not just the deletion requests that drive me nuts, but this haughty attitude that the people like you who make them always seem to give. This crap makes me want to stop using this website. Shlyst (talk) 22:33, 5 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Shlyst: I think I gave you enough arguments for why 背が高い is a SOP, the most compelling and difficult to ignore would be that you can actually split the parts and have sentences like 女の背はそれほど高くはない. How would your "one word" theory explain those cases? As for spotting SOP's and listing them up here for deletion, I'm not the one who made that rule, I'm just applying it. You're annoyed by what you perceive as a "haughty attitude", but I can assure you that your stubbornness despite being presented with absolutely solid evidence is just as irritating. — Sartma ^{【𒁾𒁉 ● 𒊭 𒌑𒊑𒀉𒁲】} 23:23, 5 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

You made it up. Funnily enough, English terms such as drive someone crazy can also be split up, for example: "This argument is driving me absolutely crazy." Also, if we're following WT:SOP, we have terms such as boiled egg which is understandable by its sum of parts, but deemed acceptable due to its excellent notability in reference to the food item. Shlyst (talk) 03:11, 6 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

@ShlystSorry: what did I make up?

In English there is a category of verbs that are called phrasal verbs, with different behaviours depending on the class, but often splitting is just normal, so nothing strange about it. Japanese doesn't have phrasal verbs or similar phrasal constructions with adjectives, so bringing English grammatical peculiarities into this discussion doesn't help.

I can't find in your link to WT:SOP a part talking about boiled eggs and the rule of "excellent notability". Can you post the correct link or copypaste the part you're referring to? — Sartma ^{【𒁾𒁉 ● 𒊭 𒌑𒊑𒀉𒁲】} 16:47, 7 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

Drive someone crazy is not a phrasal verb, and Japanese has other similar constructions that may split, such as the idiomatic 虫がいい or 耳が早い. See Talk:boiled egg and Wiktionary:Idioms#Tests of idiomaticity. Shlyst (talk) 19:03, 7 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Shlyst You're right, it's not a phrasal verb. I only thought so because its entry here on Wiktionary says "verb". That's actually just a SOP, too. I'll request for its deletion, together with drive someone nuts, drive someone mad, drive someone insane, etc. — Sartma ^{【𒁾𒁉 ● 𒊭 𒌑𒊑𒀉𒁲】} — Sartma ^{【𒁾𒁉 ● 𒊭 𒌑𒊑𒀉𒁲】} 20:01, 7 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

Turning things around, why shouldn't we remove things like 頭が良い (atama ga ii, literally “head is good”)? We use a similar expression colloquially in English to say that someone is smart / intelligent, and we have no such entry at [[good head]].

Re: 背が高い (se ga takai), this is parseable literally as "stature is tall". 背 (se) is often glossed as "back" in reference to the part of the body, but Japanese dictionaries also include senses like 身長。せたけ。 (Shinchō. Setake., “Stature. Height.”) -- copied just now from my local Daijirin. After factoring in this additional sense of the noun, I hope it is even more clear that the expression 背が高い (se ga takai) is sum-of-parts (SOP): the meaning is fully understandable from its constituent terms. As a basic rule, we don't create entries for SOP constructions, as described at WT:SOP.

Meanwhile, other ga collocations are not straightforward, such as 虫がいい (mushi ga ii). While literally "bugs are good", this has the idiomatic sense of "selfish, self-centered, brazen". Probably due to this idiomaticity, monolingual JA dictionaries also have entries for this, including Daijirin, Digital Daijisen, and the NKD (the latter two visible online here).

That said, due to Japanese syntax and grammar, even for the idiomatic expressions like 虫がいい (mushi ga ii), we should not be listing these as adjectives, as these are clearly phrases composed of multiple words, and the particle が (ga) can be swapped out for の (no) in relative clauses, among other possibilities.

‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 02:24, 6 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

"Have a good head?" Can't say I've heard that.

Conversely, I would say that 背が高い being more common itself than the individual word 背 proves the notability of the term. I also see 背が高い in English-Japanese dictionaries and JLPT vocabulary lists. We have the English term boiled egg which is understandable from its sum of parts yet kept. Shlyst (talk) 03:18, 6 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

背 (se) on its own in the sense of "height, stature" includes no indication of the extent of that "height, stature". In Japanese, one must qualify that "height, stature": it is 高い (takai, “high, tall”) or 低い (hikui, “short, low”). Various kinds of nouns take these same adjectives in similar constructions, such as 値段が高い (nedan ga takai, literally “price is high”) or 気温が低い (kion ga hikui, literally “ambient temperature is low”). While the former can be translated into English as "expensive" and the latter as "cold", neither should be treated as integral terms, same as for 背が高い (se ga takai) -- these are all sum-of-parts phrases. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 08:22, 7 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

These two counterexamples 値段が高い and 気温が低い are in no way notable (the constructions are not more common than the individual words) and are also plainly understood by the individual words and thus not idiomatic. To draw a comparison, the term boiled egg is considered highly notable due to its reference to the culinary item, much like 背が高い in reference to the physical trait tall (sense 1). Shlyst (talk) 15:42, 7 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

If "値段が高い (nedan ga takai, literally “price is high”) and 気温が低い (kion ga hikui, literally “ambient temperature is low”) are in no way notable", then surely 背が高い (se ga taki, literally “physical stature is high”) isn't notable either?

I fail to understand your reasoning. It seems like you're ignoring that 背 (se) has a documented sense of "physical stature". ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 18:15, 8 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

I mean that 背が高い particularly passes the WT:JIFFY test. Shlyst (talk) 16:45, 9 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

WT:JIFFY appears to be describing cases of fossilized words appearing in longer expressions, where the word (or that particular sense of the word) is not used that way in isolation.

Yet, 背 (se) is used on its own outside of these 〜が高い (~ ga takai) and 〜が低い (~ ga hikui) expressions in the sense of "physical stature".

Consider this quote, from the 2020 book 「死体は血を流さない」 by 純丘曜彰 (“Teruaki Georges Sumioka”, Latin-alphabet link is to the DE Wikipedia), found here on Google Books:

しかし、髪(かみ)や眼(め)や背(せ)がどうであれ、自(じ)分(ぶん)たちの子(こ)供(ども)を心(しん)配(ぱい)する気(き)持(もち)に違(ちが)いはない。
Shikashi, kami ya me ya se ga dō de are, jibun tachi no kodomo o shinpai suru kimochi ni chigai wa nai.
However, regardless of their hair [color], eye [color], or physical stature, there is no doubt of their sense of worry for their own children.

This would suggest that WT:JIFFY does not apply. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 17:56, 9 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

Are you sure? Jiffy in isolation is used the same way as in the expression in a jiffy. Shlyst (talk) 23:53, 9 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

The only examples currently at jiffy for the word used in a non-specialist jargon kind of way are in a jiffy and the slightly modified in two jiffies. It certainly seems more fossilized to me than 背 (se, “physical stature”)...?? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 16:59, 10 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

How many modifications or constructions could you think of that would be 'slight modifications' of the idiomatic 背が高い? 背が低い, 背が伸びる. I could think of as many for in a jiffy. in two jiffies, in three jiffies, for a jiffy, take a jiffy, etc. Shlyst (talk) 17:48, 10 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

My point from the very beginning, which you appear to be assiduously avoiding, is that 背が高い (se ga takai) etc. are not idiomatic, any more than saying in English that someone is "of tall physical stature".

Physical stature, by its very semantics, is limited in the kinds of adjectives or verbs we could sensibly use. That semantic limitation itself does not make those expressions with such adjectives and verbs into idioms. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 20:35, 10 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

Yet you yourself are conveniently ignoring the fact that 背 on its own is hardly an ordinary or reasonable term used to refer to height (see 身長) bar the expressive and highly common term 背が高い, thus I of course argue that it is idiomatic.

In a similar vein, in a jiffy relates to jiffy by the former being outstandingly more notable than the latter in isolation. Shlyst (talk) 21:28, 10 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Shlyst: So what are all these sentences?

背はどのくらいありますか?
俺と同じくらいの背をしている
去年より背が５センチ伸びた。
背はどれくらいかよくわかんないけど、俺の膝よりちょっと下くらいかな。
背の順に並んでください。
背のわりには体重がありますね。

All idiomatic? Why do you find it so difficult to believe that 背 (sé) is just a normal word? — Sartma ^{【𒁾𒁉 ● 𒊭 𒌑𒊑𒀉𒁲】} 23:21, 10 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

I do not deny that 背 might be a word. I simply argue that it is an idiomatically grammatical component and unusual in isolation, which warrants the existence of 背が高い.

The examples that you gave are all unusual and exaggerated sentences. Substituting 身長 for 背 would make them all incredibly more coherent. (Except 背の順 which is in fact one word, evidenced by its entirely flat pitch.)

My other point is that I can pull the same stunt for jiffy/in a jiffy:

I'll be back a jiffy from now.
I'll fix it in two jiffies at my shop.
The scan only takes a jiffy to be done.
We saw him just a jiffy ago by the park.
Just give me a jiffy to look.

Shlyst (talk) 03:05, 11 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

Where do you find pitch accent for 背の順? I can't find that listed as an entry in any of my references -- it's not in NHK, DJR, NKD, nor Digital Daijisen. Accent Jiten seems to have it (can't link directly, just enter the string at https://accentjiten.com/), but they appear to source this from our entry here at Wiktionary, which in turn lists no references.

This construction also appears to be SOP, as transparently composed of 背 (se, “physical stature”) + の (no, genitive particle) + 順 (jun, “order”), literally "[in] order of physical stature". As an additional data point, the Microsoft IME does not appear to recognize this as a single integral term. Whereas 手のひら (tenohira, “palm of the hand”) is presented as a single integral term upon conversion, 背の順 (se no jun) is not, showing instead as se + particle as one segment, and jun as another. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 07:23, 11 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Eirikr It’s definitely a common collocation, but it’s just an instance of a general 〜の順 (~no jun), it’s not a compound word. If it was you would find it in dictionaries, but it’s nowhere to be seen. I’d pronounce it as two different words: 背の順 (sé no jun). — Sartma ^{【𒁾𒁉 ● 𒊭 𒌑𒊑𒀉𒁲】} 09:07, 11 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Eirikr I've just checked on Suzuki-kun and it also gives "sé no jun ni narande·kudasái" for sentence #5. — Sartma ^{【𒁾𒁉 ● 𒊭 𒌑𒊑𒀉𒁲】} 15:09, 11 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Eirikr @Sartma

I'd find it disconcerting if you trust that Suzuki-kun source. It seems to be poorly programmed dodgy voice output.

Japanese pronounce 背の順 as one word, entirely flat, so it passes the SoP test. See: https://forvo.com/word/%E8%83%8C%E3%81%AE%E9%A0%86/ and https://youglish.com/pronounce/%E8%83%8C%E3%81%AE%E9%A0%86/japanese

(Forvo and Youglish are much better for native Japanese pronunciations.) Shlyst (talk) 03:15, 12 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Shlyst Suzuki-kun isn't perfect, and it often has to arbitrarily choose one over multiple options, but it's also the best thing we have at the moment for a graphic representation of Japanese accent and phrasal contour.

That aside, Forvo is often all over the place when it comes to pronunciations, so I never really trust it, and in this case we only have one recording, by god knows who and where from.

As for Youglish, I'm surprised you even posted that link, because pretty much all speakers in the videos say "sé no jun", with accent on "sé". There's only one video where they say "se no jun" (no accent), but they are also the more colloquial, so there are chances of it being a non-standard variation. With that link you basically disproved your very argument yourself... — Sartma ^{【𒁾𒁉 ● 𒊭 𒌑𒊑𒀉𒁲】} 08:34, 12 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

What the hell? Are you deaf or trolling? Which video is pronounced with accented "se"? They're all pronounced 背の順 completely flat. I can't even believe we're having this argument.

Suzuki-kun is poorly programmed garbage. It's even beneath AI because it was built way before GPT advancements. You cannot use this as a form of reliable source for pronunciation.

Also, the Forvo pronunciation of 背の順 is from the user "mezashi" who is from Japan and has many reliable pronunciations. https://forvo.com/user/mezashi/ Shlyst (talk) 20:14, 12 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Shlyst Unfortunally the deaf one is you. All videos but #4 have "sé no jun". And to be honest, I think that even #4 is accented on "sé", it's just made less noticeable by the high pitched phrase contour. I'm checking with a Japanese friend of mine for that one, I'll let you know.

By the way, I'm sure you also hear 手のひら (ténohira) as flat, don't you? You just never properly learned to recognise all types of Japanese pitch accent, that's all. That's ok, nothing new, but a bit more humility on your side wouldn't hurt. It must be the Dunning–Kruger effect in action there. — Sartma ^{【𒁾𒁉 ● 𒊭 𒌑𒊑𒀉𒁲】} 21:26, 12 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Shlyst Also: did you notice that in the clickable subtitles on Younglish 背の順 (sé no jun) is never one individual word? Why do you think that is? — Sartma ^{【𒁾𒁉 ● 𒊭 𒌑𒊑𒀉𒁲】} 08:50, 12 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

You've got to be a special kind of stupid. Those word splits are computationally generated. Japanese has no spaces, so it's of course impossible for a computer to distinguish. Shlyst (talk) 20:15, 12 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Shlyst Sure. I'm a special kind of stupid, am I. Then tell me, why is 男の子 (otokónoko) subtitled as one word? Anyway, insults are where I draw a line. You clearly reached the limits of your knowledge – and with them, your ability to argue in a civilised manner. I won't be interacting with you any further. Let me just offer a suggestion: you’ve marked yourself as “User ja-5” on your profile’s Babel box, which is meant for those who are "experts at a level equal to or surpassing that of a native speaker but are not native speakers themselves". Do everyone here a favour and lower that to at least “User ja-3,” would you? It’s really a matter of managing expectations on your part. — Sartma ^{【𒁾𒁉 ● 𒊭 𒌑𒊑𒀉𒁲】} 21:46, 12 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Sartma: I've blocked @Shlyst for a day- that was indeed over the limit of what's allowed at Wiktionary, though the incivility in this whole discussion has gotten out of hand lately. Perhaps they will do better after they've had a day to cool off. Let's hope so! Chuck Entz (talk) 22:31, 12 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

Looks like I was right all along about the pitch accent and pronunciation of 背の順. Not that I'm surprised.

And apparently, I was banned for a day. I admit that the incivility got out of hand. I want to apologize @Chuck Entz for this and to the interlocutors of this discussion @Eirikr @Fish bowl @TNMPChannel @Horse Battery. I believe in maintaining a civil environment for healthy discussion.

<rant>

I want to apologize to you as well @Sartma. I respect you and will say that your contributions to this website are valuable. I will however also say, no offense, that you do have quite the ego that needs introspection. I'm just going to say how this argument went from my perspective. Guy is hilarious. Came at me with such an attitude, just like a 自治厨 (rough translation: keyboard warrior). I hadn't seen such exceeding arrogance and conviction from someone who was completely wrong and so off the mark. I think the following entry fits: every accusation is a confession, the way he was accusing me of lacking humility and Dunning-Kruger effect while himself exhibiting exactly that. The funniest is him telling me that I should lower my status to "ja-3". Come on. Japanese pitch accent in particular is a special interest of mine, so I just found this whole argument funny. Maybe he should also get his comeuppance for unilaterally vandalizing the website with incorrect information. (Just kidding. End of rant.)

</rant>

Getting back on-topic:

So more evidence for the point I was trying to make and that 背が高い is actually idiomatic is its additional sense in reference to inanimate objects, by extension to its meaning as analyzed by its literal sum of parts. For example, it is common to say 背が高いビル (tall building). I updated 背が高い to reflect this.

@Eirikr, I would like to address your point. I respect you because you are an intelligent contributor. I think that we should not remove 頭がいい because its grammatical use is without a doubt idiomatic. I mean that one would not say, for example, いい頭, or 私の頭はいい. I'd strongly argue in favor of keeping it. I think many users can agree on this one at least. Shlyst (talk) 16:12, 14 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Shlyst I'd still maintain that you should lower your Babel level to 3. You described perfectly fine and extremely common Japanese sentences as "unusual and exaggerated". You can't hear clear atamadaka accents saying they are "clearly heiban". You insist that 背 (sè) is an "idiomatically grammatical component" (whatever that is supposed to mean) and "unusual in isolation", and you believe that relative phrases like 背の高い are "adjectives". You can't seriously expect people to believe your knowledge of Japanese to be better than that of a native speaker (Babel level 5). To quote you: "Come on!". — Sartma ^{【𒁾𒁉 ● 𒊭 𒌑𒊑𒀉𒁲】} 00:16, 15 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

Yet nothing I said was false. Shlyst (talk) 03:08, 15 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

You're doing it again. Shlyst (talk) 03:14, 15 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

I did some research. You should lower yours to Japanese level 1. Shlyst (talk) 04:03, 15 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

Continued this argument at Wiktionary:Requests_for_deletion/CJK#背の順.

Also, what do you think now with regard to the new idiomatic sense that I've listed on 背が高い?

Another fear I have is that this heated discussion has dissuaded other interlocutors from participating. Shlyst (talk) 17:03, 15 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Shlyst I don't think anyone here is afraid of a heated discussion, as long as an actual discussion is taking place. People stop participating when their arguments, points, and reasoning are, to borrow @Eirikr's words, “assiduously avoided”, or when others prefer to insult their interlocutors instead of engaging with them in good faith. No one likes to have a “discussion” with a brick wall.— Sartma ^{【𒁾𒁉 ● 𒊭 𒌑𒊑𒀉𒁲】} 22:53, 15 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

Of course, I'd tell you exactly same thing, but this and arrogantly attacking my knowledge of the subject is when it became less of a discussion and more of a childish adversarial pissing match. But the main question. (背が高い) Shlyst (talk) 02:08, 16 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Shlyst Oh, you mean when I suggested you lowered your Babel level to 3? So AFTER you called me a "special kind of stupid" and got blocked for it? Don't you think THAT is when the discussion became childish? Interesting. — Sartma ^{【𒁾𒁉 ● 𒊭 𒌑𒊑𒀉𒁲】} 09:39, 16 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

I was taking the piss based on the attitude you were giving me, but you seemed to be serious.

And a correction: suggested you lower*

Go ahead and lower that English level to en-3. /j sarcasm. Shlyst (talk) 15:05, 16 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Shlyst Sorry, I read "I'd tell you exactly same thing" in your previous message and I was just trying to be nice by matching my language level to yours. /j sarcasm. — Sartma ^{【𒁾𒁉 ● 𒊭 𒌑𒊑𒀉𒁲】} 17:34, 16 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Shlyst I changed 背が高い (sé ga takái) and 背が低い (sé ga hikúi) to how I think they should be if we don't agree on deleting them as entries. That's the only way I can see them surviving as entries while remaining within Wiktionary standards. Have a look. — Sartma ^{【𒁾𒁉 ● 𒊭 𒌑𒊑𒀉𒁲】} 10:39, 17 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Shlyst, @Eirikr Regarding 頭がいい (atamá ga íi): you can actually say things like the following:

There's no reason to consider 頭がいい (atamá ga íi) anything but a SOP: 頭（＝脳の働き）＋　いい (＝水準を超えている、優れている). That's why you can say any sort of things, like:

頭が優れている
頭が鋭い
頭が緩い
頭が鈍い
頭がおかしい
頭が硬い
頭が柔らかい
頭が狂ってる

etc. — Sartma ^{【𒁾𒁉 ● 𒊭 𒌑𒊑𒀉𒁲】} 00:23, 17 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

Yes, those two sentences are unusual but possible constructions, but ultimately modifications of 頭が良い.

Shouldn't we keep 頭が良い because its expressive meaning by its literal sum of parts is unclear? You try to make it seem as if this were not the case. Shlyst (talk) 03:36, 19 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Shlyst I find it disconcerting that you believe those examples I gave are "all unusual and exaggerated sentences". I found them all online, I didn't make them up. Just grab a random Japanese person, if you have one handy, and ask them if they find any of those sentences unusual or exaggerated. They are all completely normal and commonly used in everyday speech, I would be extremely surprised if a Japanese person would tell you otherwise. — Sartma ^{【𒁾𒁉 ● 𒊭 𒌑𒊑𒀉𒁲】} 11:42, 11 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Shlyst So should we also add entries for 背が伸びる (sé ga nobíru), 背が縮む (sé ga chijimu), 背がちっちゃい (sé ga chicchái), 背がでっかい (sé ga dekkái), 僕は彼と同じくらいの背がいいなー (“bóku wa káre to onaji·kúrai no sé ga íi nā”), and any other time one uses 背 (sé) to say something else that's not 高い (takái) or 低い (hikúi)? There really is nothing special or notable about 背が高い and 背が低い. — Sartma ^{【𒁾𒁉 ● 𒊭 𒌑𒊑𒀉𒁲】} 17:26, 7 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

背が伸びる, I don't see why not. However, this is indeed a difficult question. Certainly, adding a bunch of synonymous expressions for the same term would be a bit redundant; as previously mentioned, we have the term drive someone crazy, which in the page lists a few synonymous parallel terms such as drive someone nuts, but of course that doesn't mean we'd then have to try to add every permutated utterance of the same expression: drive someone bonkers, drive someone wild, drive someone bananas, drive someone balls, drive someone over the edge, because there would be infinitely many. Seeing that drive someone crazy was chosen as the base expression of all those permutations, it makes sense to apply the same logic to the inclusion of the highly notable terms 背が高い and 背が低い. Shlyst (talk) 19:05, 7 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Shlyst I believe all those English phrases you gave are SOP. I've asked for their deletion, too.

I've also had a look at the new links you posted about boiled egg. I still can't find where "notability" of a phrase is given as criterion to keep it. The reason we kept boiled egg was because poached eggs are also boiled, so it's impossible to argue that "boiled egg" is SOP: it's a phrase that includes the way you boil the egg, therefore expressing more than just the sum of its parts. That is in no way comparable to 背が高い／低い, which don't express anything more than "body-height is high" (=tall) and "body-height is low" (=short). — Sartma ^{【𒁾𒁉 ● 𒊭 𒌑𒊑𒀉𒁲】} 20:37, 7 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

Poached eggs are not boiled. Shlyst (talk) 16:48, 9 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Shlyst: My god, you just want to say "no!" for the sake of it, don't you. Here's something that was said in the discussion for the second RFD of boiled egg (you find it in the talk page of that entry): «It is idiomatic because a boiled egg is not a poached egg, although the latter is also boiled in water. Therefore it passes the fried egg test.» — Sartma ^{【𒁾𒁉 ● 𒊭 𒌑𒊑𒀉𒁲】} 13:50, 10 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

You're contradicting yourself, and your incessant arguing is logically inconsistent. You'd take that one comment as gospel? Look up the difference between boiling and poaching. Here is something that was also said in that same talk page: "I disagree. See the second verb definition of boil." and "Quickly throwing in a half cent to say my stance is if you can look up each word separately and understand what it means, a separate entry is not needed for both words together." Shlyst (talk) 17:42, 10 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Shlyst

to boil: to cook in boiling water.
to poach: to cook (something) in simmering or very hot liquid (usually water; sometimes wine, broth, or otherwise).
to simmer: to cook or undergo heating slowly at or below the boiling point.

boiling covers both poaching and simmering. They are just two different ways you boil something. — Sartma ^{【𒁾𒁉 ● 𒊭 𒌑𒊑𒀉𒁲】} 15:16, 11 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

別れを告げる

Latest comment: 1 month ago5 comments5 people in discussion

Japanese, WT:SOP. Straightforward non-idiomatic phrase, consisting of deverbal noun 別れ (wakare, “parting, going away”) + object particle を (o) + verb 告げる (tsugeru, “to tell, to announce, to inform someone of something”). ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 00:35, 12 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Delete, SOP. —Fish bowl (talk) 02:15, 13 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

Keep Shlyst (talk) 17:22, 5 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

Delete, SOP — Sartma ^{【𒁾𒁉 ● 𒊭 𒌑𒊑𒀉𒁲】} 18:54, 5 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

Keep. I just found this useful for confirming the preferred collocation (i.e. that it's not e.g. 別れを言う) DancingCupcake (talk) 05:41, 7 May 2026 (UTC)Reply

걷

Latest comment: 4 months ago3 comments3 people in discussion

Korean. Rationale was "Examples are only verbs and nouns, this word is not a verb or noun." Ultimateria (talk) 02:56, 24 November 2025 (UTC)Reply

I suppose there might be a case for reworking that into a "verb form" entry, but it is clearly not a noun, nor a verb. For that matter, I'm not even sure "verb form" is correct?

For anyone interested, see the main entry at 걷다 (geotda), particularly the conjugation tables there, which include all of the forms listed under both the "Verb" and "Noun" headings at 걷 (geot). ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 20:51, 4 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

Cleaned up entry per RFD, removed verb and noun sections Versions111 (talk) 01:01, 27 January 2026 (UTC)Reply

December 2025

山埃貼士

Latest comment: 1 month ago3 comments3 people in discussion

Chinese. SoP. 山埃 can be an adjective on its own. See for example google:"山埃料", google:"山埃tips", google:"咁山埃". – wpi (talk) 17:42, 1 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

@wpi: We should add an adjective sense at 山埃 then. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 23:51, 3 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

I think this expression is somewhat idiomatic and should be included. Mahogany115 (talk) 13:57, 21 April 2026 (UTC)Reply

輕

Latest comment: 6 months ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Chinese. Rfd-sense: "light carriage". Tagged by an IP: "if 輕 can stand for a light carriage, can 熟 also mean familiar routes? the idiom has its own etymology and is more like an abbreviation". — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 09:02, 5 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

Delete - 駕輕就熟 is an idiom, so it does not imply 輕 has such meaning. Sun8908 (talk) 09:30, 7 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

背の順

Latest comment: 5 months ago26 comments4 people in discussion

Japanese. This is clearly just a SOP of 背 (sé, “height”) and 〜の順 (~no jun, “in order of”). — Sartma ^{【𒁾𒁉 ● 𒊭 𒌑𒊑𒀉𒁲】} 21:32, 11 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

Keep. Not SoP because of its entirely flat pitch notwithstanding the accented term 背 (せꜜ), so it passes the WT:CHAIR test and "in between" test. Shlyst (talk) 03:21, 12 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

It's not pronounced with a flat pitch. It's pronounced "sé no jun", with the accent on "sé". You posted yourself a link to Youglish where pretty much all spakers clearly pronounce it with the accent on the "sé". No monolingual dictionary has this phrase as an individual entry and even the subtitles on Youglish clearly show it's sé + no + jun. — Sartma ^{【𒁾𒁉 ● 𒊭 𒌑𒊑𒀉𒁲】} 09:29, 12 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

None of the audio on youglish features an accented せ, and I asked a native who confirmed it to be pronounced either heiban or accented on the の. Regardless, I'm weakly in favor of deleting, since の overriding the accent of a preceding word is a widespread phenomenon, so I don't think that alone can be justification for something's non-SOP-ness. Horse Battery (talk) 01:36, 13 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Horse Battery, how do you view sample #7? That seems to exhibit clear downstep, but it's also 背の高い順, not just 背の順.

Separately, I do note that online instances of 背が高い / 背の高い do exhibit downstep after the se, so the medial no seems to cause different pitch-accent behavior in these two constructions (se no jun vs. se no takai)? See also https://forvo.com/word/背の高い/ for instance. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 01:51, 13 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

I can't tell since #7 is very hard to hear with the microphone and background voices, but the forvo examples definitely sound like せ↓のたか↓い. I think these two constructions are different though; one is の being a subject particle in a relative clause, and the other is it being a genitive particle, and I'd have to check whether these two usages cause it to affect pitch differently. Horse Battery (talk) 03:33, 13 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Horse Battery Can you ask your native about #3 and #8? To me those are clearly and unambiguously accented on the "sé". If the accent is instead on the "no", that would be a clear indication of univerbation. There is no difference on how "no" behaves phonetically after a noun, whatever its function. It always "deletes" the accent of a preceding noun if the accent falls on the last syllable. All accented monosyllabic nouns are by default atamadaka, accented on the first syllable, so they never lose their accent if followed by a "no". That's why if a monosyllabic noun loses its accent when followed by a "no" there is usually something going on (=univerbation). — Sartma ^{【𒁾𒁉 ● 𒊭 𒌑𒊑𒀉𒁲】} 08:40, 13 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

Here you have it. This guy does not understand and is incapable of perceiving Japanese pitch accent as spoken by Japanese if he thinks that #3 and #8 exhibit a downstep at せ. He was previously accusing me of being unknowledgeable and telling me that I should lower my status to "ja-3". I hope he wises up as his hypocrisy now backfired. Shlyst (talk) 16:59, 15 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

I think none of us are capable of hearing it apparently. I originally asked him if 背の順 was heiban, and he said it was either that or nakadaka, but I've just sent him audio clips of #3 and #8 and he said he heard the first as atamadaka, and the second as heiban. Horse Battery (talk) 04:10, 16 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Horse Battery They say 背の順 twice in video #8. The second is clearer. Did you send your Japanese informant both instances in video #8? I think @Eirikr gave a very accurate description of the actual acoustics. In the vast majority of the videos the せ always has a higher pitch compared to the following の. 「順」IS a heiban word, so the various 「〜順に」、「〜順で」、「〜順じゃなくて」WILL sound heiban. But if you concentrate on the「背の」 bit, the fall in pitch is clear. — Sartma ^{【𒁾𒁉 ● 𒊭 𒌑𒊑𒀉𒁲】} 09:58, 16 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Horse Battery I've just realised that the "second part" of #8 is video #9. What does your informant hear in video #9? — Sartma ^{【𒁾𒁉 ● 𒊭 𒌑𒊑𒀉𒁲】} 10:17, 16 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Shlyst JapanDic also has "sé no jun" (listen to the audio). — Sartma ^{【𒁾𒁉 ● 𒊭 𒌑𒊑𒀉𒁲】} 09:43, 12 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

Again, you're bringing up a shitty poorly programmed robotic voice audio and ignoring the actual native Japanese pronunciation. See https://forvo.com/word/%E8%83%8C%E3%81%AE%E9%A0%86/ and https://youglish.com/pronounce/%E8%83%8C%E3%81%AE%E9%A0%86/japanese Shlyst (talk) 20:17, 12 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

This guy is deaf or something if he thinks that the speakers pronounced it with accented "se". Shlyst (talk) 20:26, 12 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Shlyst At this point you just have my pity... — Sartma ^{【𒁾𒁉 ● 𒊭 𒌑𒊑𒀉𒁲】} 21:51, 12 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

Listening to the 11 samples at the Youglish link (https://youglish.com/pronounce/背の順/japanese):

Videos 1, 8, and 9 are the same female speaker, who pronounces this phrase with no downstep -- but also no initial rise. If this were a regular unaccented / heiban string, we'd expect the first mora to be low, followed by a pitch rise, then a gradual decline. Instead, she pronounces it as if the pitch rise happens before the se, so all four morae se no ju n are part of a gradual decline in pitch.
Video 2 is inaudible.
Video 3 is an older male speaker who follows the same pattern as 1 -- se is already higher pitch, no downstep and a gradual decline in pitch.
Video 4 is a younger male speaker, who follows the expected heiban pattern -- se is medium-low pitch, no is higher, and the next two ju n continue a gradual decline in pitch.
Video 5 is another younger male speaker, but he's talking so fast and he mushes the medial no such that I have a hard time catching the pitch. After replaying it many times, it seems like maybe the same no-rise, no-downstep pattern as 1, 8, 9, 3.
Video 7 is another younger male speaker, and while the speech has this phrase, it also has a medial adjective thrown in, as 背の高い順 (se no takai jun, literally “in order of stature height”). The pitch pattern seems to be high se, downstep with low no, then takai exhibiting regular heiban with low ta- and higher-then-falling -kai.
Video 6, 10, 11 are all false positives -- these don't actually include this phrase.

I may well be confused -- as my wife often says, "I reserve the right to be wrong." 😄 Given what I've observed in the Youglish videos, of the 6 or 7 audible videos with this phrase, 4 or 5 are neither strictly heiban nor accented (#1, #8, #9, #3, maybe #5); one is heiban (#4); and one is accented on the se, but also a slightly different construction (#7), which arguably might be better parsed as 背の高い (se no takai, literally “of tall stature”) + 順 (jun, “order, ranking”). I'm not sure what to make of all this.

If we can confirm on any pitch-accent pattern for se no jun that does not exhibit the expected pitch-accent pattern for a purely SOP construction, then it is idiomatic, albeit phonetically rather than semantically, and we should keep the entry. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 01:44, 13 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Eirikr Your description of 1, 3, 8, 9 is the pitch contour you would expect from a noun accented on the first syllable. Japanese natives naturally interpret a series of "flat, not dropping" pitches as a rising pitch, so you need at least two consecutive flat-pitch moras for the pitch to be perceived as rising. That's what you would expect at the beginning of a heiban word (in normal, non emphatic speech, that is). The fact that you hear a constant drop in pitch from the first mora is indicative of the accent being there. — Sartma ^{【𒁾𒁉 ● 𒊭 𒌑𒊑𒀉𒁲】} 08:52, 13 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

Search "背の順" on YouTube. Much evidence.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyFkKAwIhO0&t=46s said at 0:46 and 0:55 and 1:10 and many times. CLEARLY HEIBAN

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxZfzfxmIIc&t=20 said at 0:20 CLEARLY HEIBAN

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B24HhrCACNI said at 0:00 and multiple times, CLEARLY HEIBAN

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbtbzSXoOcI said at 3:34 and 3:40 and 9:08 and 9:38 CLEARLY HEIBAN

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysCVYiV2krY said at 0:00 CLEARLY HEIBAN

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cziByZF4wq4&t=121s said at 2:01 CLEARLY HEIBAN

And there you have it. Shlyst (talk) 16:18, 14 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Shlyst Yes, these are all clearly heiban. In the meantime I heard back from my Japanese friend, and they told me that you can say both "sé no jun" and "se no jun". — Sartma ^{【𒁾𒁉 ● 𒊭 𒌑𒊑𒀉𒁲】} 23:58, 14 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

In your own words, this is univerbation. Do you withdraw your requested deletion? Shlyst (talk) 03:16, 15 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Shlyst Yes, I’m happy to keep this after the evidence in those YouTube videos. Looks like the phrase turned into a word for younger people. It’s not recorded by monolingual dictionaries yet, so it must be a relatively recent thing. — Sartma ^{【𒁾𒁉 ● 𒊭 𒌑𒊑𒀉𒁲】} 08:53, 15 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Shlyst Actually, hold on. I'm reading other stuff on the topic. It could just be that the accent of 背 started to show a double accentuation. I've also just realised that the 新明海国語辞典 clearly indicates that the pronunciation of this phrase should be "sé no jun". It also clearly shows that for the editors "sé no jun" is nothing more than a normal SOP (since it's given as an example, not as an entry on its own):

せ【背】
㊀　0️⃣ 1️⃣ せなか。「山をー〔＝後ろ〕にする／山のー〔＝尾根〕／ーを向けたまま返事をした／包丁のーで肉をたたく」

㊁　1️⃣ 立っているものの、高さ。せい。「ーの順／ーの高い人」

— Sartma ^{【𒁾𒁉 ● 𒊭 𒌑𒊑𒀉𒁲】} 11:35, 15 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

There does not seem to be enough proof for your conjecture. Does 新明海国語辞典 label 背の順 as せ＼のじゅん? Old and young people alike are evidenced pronouncing it as せのじゅん￣.

I asked a Japanese friend who is sure that it's only flat せのじゅん￣. Shlyst (talk) 15:49, 15 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Shlyst Apologies, I assumed we would all be familiar with how Japanese monolingual dictionaries indicate the accent on entries. The 0️⃣ and 1️⃣ in the definition I copied from the 新明海 mean respectively 平板型 and 頭高型, so, to answer your question, yes, the 新明海 clearly labels 背の順 as "sé no jun". — Sartma ^{【𒁾𒁉 ● 𒊭 𒌑𒊑𒀉𒁲】} 17:05, 15 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

@Shlyst Here is also another video where 背の順 is clearly pronounced "sé no jun":

モーニング娘。背の順挨拶

— Sartma ^{【𒁾𒁉 ● 𒊭 𒌑𒊑𒀉𒁲】} 17:27, 15 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

What's the deal with you and robot pronunciations? The ones I linked are all human. Shlyst (talk) 02:55, 19 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

子供向け

Latest comment: 5 months ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Japanese. SOP: 子供 (kodomo, “children”) + 向け (muke, “intended for”). If this item is accepted, we can create 大人向け (“intended for adults”), 高齢者向け (“intended for elderly people”), 男性向け (“intended for men”), 女性向け (“intended for women”), etc. --20041027 tatsu (talk) 05:01, 13 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

Delete — Sartma ^{【𒁾𒁉 ● 𒊭 𒌑𒊑𒀉𒁲】} 08:55, 15 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

子供向き

Latest comment: 5 months ago3 comments3 people in discussion

Japanese. SOP: 子供 (kodomo, “children”) + 向き (muki, “suitable for”). See also above. --20041027 tatsu (talk) 05:01, 13 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

Delete — Sartma ^{【𒁾𒁉 ● 𒊭 𒌑𒊑𒀉𒁲】} 13:11, 15 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

Delete; is like 初心者向き, 高齢者向き, 大衆向き, 大人向き, 紳士向き, 老人向き, 日本人向き, 婦人向き, or 若者向き (For an example of the last one see [[27]]). Haplology (Haplology) 02:54, 29 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

頭良い

Latest comment: 5 months ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Japanese. This is just an instance of the SOP phrase 頭がいい (atamá ga íi) with omission of the case particle—a general phenomenon not restricted to this specific case. — Sartma ^{【𒁾𒁉 ● 𒊭 𒌑𒊑𒀉𒁲】} 19:06, 28 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

価値高い

Latest comment: 4 months ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Japanese. SOP: 価値 (káchi) + 高い (takái), with omission of case particle が (ga). — Sartma ^{【𒁾𒁉 ● 𒊭 𒌑𒊑𒀉𒁲】} 19:51, 28 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

Delete, it’s more SoP than the other phrases listed. TNMPChannel (talk) 18:38, 10 January 2026 (UTC)Reply

頭の良い

Latest comment: 5 months ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Japanese. Simple grammatical variation of any similar phrase where が can be substituted by の when used attributively. The templatised Usage note in 頭がいい (atamá ga íi) already gives a clear explanation. Same goes for 頭の悪い (atamạ no warúi). — Sartma ^{【𒁾𒁉 ● 𒊭 𒌑𒊑𒀉𒁲】} 11:00, 29 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

気が気じゃない

Latest comment: 2 months ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Japanese. See also 気が気ではない (ki ga ki dé wa nái). Alternative forms of でない (de nái) are given in the corresponding page. If we want to keep this kind of entries, we should probably find a way of creating them automatically. In my view they just create clutter, though, so I'd prefer to remove them. What do you think? — Sartma ^{【𒁾𒁉 ● 𒊭 𒌑𒊑𒀉𒁲】} 16:01, 29 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

This appears to be a straightforward alternative form, no? In which case, we should have a stub entry with a minimal ===Etymology=== section explaining details for this specific form, and below that {{ja-see}} pointing the reader to the main entry for fuller details. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 18:31, 16 March 2026 (UTC)Reply

空気よめない

Latest comment: 5 months ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Japanese. This is just a normal Japanese sentence. It's what KY (kēwái) stands for, together with 空気を読め (kûki o yóme), but it's not per se anything special. It's just a regular conjugated instance of 空気を読む (kûki o yómu). The same goes for 空気を読まない (kûki o yománai). — Sartma ^{【𒁾𒁉 ● 𒊭 𒌑𒊑𒀉𒁲】} 17:08, 29 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

ケツの穴

Latest comment: 2 months ago8 comments5 people in discussion

Japanese. SOP. ケツ (ketsu, “ass”) + の (no, “of”) + 穴 (aná, “hole”) = the hole of (your) ass — Sartma ^{【𒁾𒁉 ● 𒊭 𒌑𒊑𒀉𒁲】} 18:53, 29 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

Keep if it can mean "butthole" literally, kinda something like the SoP constructs such as 髪の毛. TNMPChannel (talk) 14:54, 16 January 2026 (UTC)Reply

@TNMPChannel 髪の毛 (kaminóke) is a univerbation, so one word. ケツの穴 (ketsu no aná) is not (all elements keep their original accentuation, so they count a individual words). It's clearly just a SOP. — Sartma ^{【𒁾𒁉 ● 𒊭 𒌑𒊑𒀉𒁲】} 15:25, 16 January 2026 (UTC)Reply

~~Then I'm fine with changing it to cut.~~ Changed back to keep since other users had made quite valid points like the term in question being commonly used to refer to the anus and the term being rather interchangeable. TNMPChannel (talk) 10:23, 31 January 2026 (UTC)Reply

Keep for a pretty obvious reason. No part of it is interchangeable. ～(の)穴 doesn't regularly form names of orfices. This word is commonly contracted to just ケツ穴, which unfortunately doesn't have a page.. yet :). ケツの穴 is just very clearly not parsed as a phrase, but more like English butthole. B555c444 (talk) 15:11, 1 February 2026 (UTC)Reply

@B555c444: Are you saying that in Japanese you can’t say things like 鼻の穴 or 耳の穴? Because that would not be true at all. — Sartma ^{【𒁾𒁉 ● 𒊭 𒌑𒊑𒀉𒁲】} 07:40, 3 February 2026 (UTC)Reply

I agree that we should keep. Japanese Wikipedia also includes ケツの穴 as a synonym for 肛門. And ケツの穴 is plainly common in everyday speech for reference to this anatomical organ.

I've said this before: I think that removing common terms so frugally is anything but helpful to a user. For example, in a similar vein, French has trou de nez (“hole of nose”) meaning nosehole. Shlyst (talk) 16:15, 1 February 2026 (UTC)Reply

FWIW, there is also the derived expression ケツの穴が小さい (ketsu no ana ga chīsai, “stingy, miserly”, literally “one's asshole is small → tight-assed”). ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 18:27, 16 March 2026 (UTC)Reply

質が悪い

Latest comment: 5 months ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Japanese. SOP. — Sartma ^{【𒁾𒁉 ● 𒊭 𒌑𒊑𒀉𒁲】} 18:51, 29 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

January 2026

秀出來了

Latest comment: 5 months ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Chinese. Looks SoP: 秀 + 出來 + 了. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 00:27, 2 January 2026 (UTC)Reply

淘寶

Latest comment: 4 months ago3 comments3 people in discussion

Chinese. WT:BRAND. Saph (talk) 19:39, 4 January 2026 (UTC)Reply

Keep, at least for the verb sense. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 20:53, 5 January 2026 (UTC)Reply

@Justinrleung 淘寶 can also mean "to strike gold" or "to find sth with great value", for example 海港，淘到宝了？ Kethyga (talk) 17:45, 16 January 2026 (UTC)Reply

yídǎosù bèng

Latest comment: 2 months ago8 comments4 people in discussion

Mandarin. Misspelling of yídǎosùbèng. --dring sim 16:35, 19 January 2026 (UTC)Reply

@沈澄心: I'm not sure if this should be considered a misspelling? Why does yídǎosù need to stick with bèng? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 06:33, 22 January 2026 (UTC)Reply

Maybe because there are currently more than one page of Mandarin transliteration, which shouldn't be the case? Maraschino Cherry (talk) 09:20, 22 January 2026 (UTC)Reply

@Justinrleung GB/T 16159-2012 5.3? dring sim 01:55, 23 January 2026 (UTC)Reply

@沈澄心: Sorry for the late reply, but I think it is debatable whether this would be considered 不能按词或语节划分, unless I'm missing something. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 02:05, 11 February 2026 (UTC)Reply

We allow multiple different romanized spelling entries for Japanese terms, provided that just one of these is treated as the "canonical" spelling that gets included in the main entries.

What harm is there in allowing multiple pinyin renderings, when the only difference is whitespace? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 18:55, 16 March 2026 (UTC)Reply

You can always expect someone to use or at least click into an entry that is not linked by any other page. Why not exert Occam's Razor, if no good will be done then? Japanese is special, especially when you think about how many scripts it uses (including hiragana, katakana and kanji). We cannot do a comparison with Japanese to pinyin, which is after all but a standardized transliteration system to Mandarin Chinese. So here's my opinion: keeping the space just makes it more like two words, which is called SoP here. I think this reason is enough. See 大功告成 (dàgōnggàochéng). In the etymology, I left a space in-between to indicate that when the author used it, it was very unlikely to be reckoned a single word or chengyu—more of a collocation. Maraschino Cherry (talk) 19:29, 16 March 2026 (UTC)Reply

Sorry, I really don't understand what you're trying to say here, other than a general resistance to the idea of having multiple pinyin pages with differences in spacing. Past there, you've honestly lost me.

By way of counterpoint, the ZH WP page at w:zh:胰岛素泵 for this same term lists a synonym as 胰島素幫浦 / 胰岛素帮浦. It seems clear that the first part in both is 胰岛素 (yídǎosù, “insulin”), followed by different words for "pump", either 泵 (bèng) or 幫浦 / 帮浦 (bāngpǔ). This looks like a multi-word compound term, as a stack of two nouns, "insulin" + "pump". Having spaces in a term does not necessarily imply SOP-ness, as indeed we have in the English insulin pump. Including a space in the pinyin at the word/morpheme boundary seems like the sensible thing to do.

Alternatively, setting aside romanization as irrelevant to SOP-ness, if Chinese 胰岛素泵 is deemed SOP, then presumably English insulin pump should be as well, and neither term should remain. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 00:36, 17 March 2026 (UTC)Reply

避馬瘟

Latest comment: 6 days ago5 comments4 people in discussion

Chinese. Tagged by @Maraschino Cherry without listing here.--Kethyga (talk) 22:06, 21 January 2026 (UTC)Reply

SoP. Maraschino Cherry (talk) 19:40, 16 March 2026 (UTC)Reply

Delete. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 17:41, 13 May 2026 (UTC)Reply

Delete. Linh Huynh (talk) 05:01, 28 May 2026 (UTC)Reply

RFD deleted. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 22:13, 1 June 2026 (UTC)Reply

かざんくち

Latest comment: 2 months ago4 comments3 people in discussion

Japanese. Failed RFV. Horse Battery (talk) 16:30, 28 January 2026 (UTC)Reply

Hmm, google:"火山口は" finds instances of the underlying kanji string 火山口 specifically in Japanese contexts, which for me is showing 2,680 hits, collapsing to 295 when paging through (page 30 of hits, last page showing 5 hits).

While some of these are Japanese texts talking about sites in China, several of them are instead talking about Hawaii or Kumamoto or other locations, indicating that this term is not limited to China-related contexts.

I haven't dug in enough to clarify how this Japanese string is meant to be read (kazankō? kazan kuchi? kazan-guchi?), but this string is clearly citable for Japanese, so I must point out that failing Japanese 火山口 for RFV and deleting that entry appears to have been a mistake. See also Talk:火山口#mw-content-text ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 18:53, 16 March 2026 (UTC)Reply

It's かざんこう (kazánkō). See here. — Sartma ^{【𒁾𒁉 ● 𒊭 𒌑𒊑𒀉𒁲】} 16:40, 17 March 2026 (UTC)Reply

I do believe that the correct Japanese word is 噴火口 (funkákō/funkakō), but since we have direct evidence of natives saying "kazánkō", I guess we can't ignore it. It might be they believe that that word exists, even if it doesn't, but given that even NHK Accent Dictionary gives 〜口 (~kō) as a productive suffix, I'd say it's fair game. — Sartma ^{【𒁾𒁉 ● 𒊭 𒌑𒊑𒀉𒁲】} 16:48, 17 March 2026 (UTC)Reply

February 2026

西里爾字母

Latest comment: 3 months ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Chinese. Seemingly sum-of-parts. Compare Talk:Cyrillic alphabet. — Polomo ⟨⁠ ⁠oi!⁠ ⁠⟩ · 03:04, 21 February 2026 (UTC)Reply

全速前進

Latest comment: 3 months ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Japanese and Korean. SOP. See also #전속 전진. OosakaNoOusama (talk) 06:00, 21 February 2026 (UTC)Reply

Kotobank, Daijisen, Weblio, JMDict, etc. appear to list it as its own entry. See also RFD from October 2020. No opinion from me in regards to Korean. --benlisquare_T•C 00:24, 25 February 2026 (UTC)Reply

전속 전진

Latest comment: 2 months ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Korean. SOP. See also #全速前進. OosakaNoOusama (talk) 06:02, 21 February 2026 (UTC)Reply

If we have English full speed ahead, why should we not have Korean 전속 전진 (jeonsok jeonjin)?

As a learner of Korean, I must point out that this Korean collocation, literally noun "full speed" + noun "advance, forward movement", is not immediately obvious to me as a translation of the idiomatic English phrase. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 18:59, 16 March 2026 (UTC)Reply

March 2026

華佗

Latest comment: 1 month ago5 comments4 people in discussion

Chinese. WT:NSE: surname + given name. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 03:30, 2 March 2026 (UTC)Reply

@Justinrleung There is a 华佗镇 (Huàtuó Zhèn/Huatuo Town) in Anhui province. Kethyga (talk) 19:21, 17 March 2026 (UTC)Reply

@Kethyga: Thanks. I've added this place name and changed the RFD to an RFD-sense. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 23:04, 17 March 2026 (UTC)Reply

I think Hua Tuo is a byword of a famous doctor? Mahogany115 (talk) 14:01, 21 April 2026 (UTC)Reply

Often used in 華佗再世; hard to find usage on its own, I think -- Ping me User:内存溢出的猫 plz!^📝瞄？_💬喵! 02:15, 27 April 2026 (UTC)Reply

西里爾蒙古文

Latest comment: 3 months ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Chinese. SoP: 西里爾 (Cyrillic) + 蒙古文 (Mongolian). — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 05:47, 2 March 2026 (UTC)Reply

User:IJ13IJ13's creations

Latest comment: 2 months ago7 comments4 people in discussion

User:Kafuka... has nominating Korean protologisms created by IJ13IJ13 for speedy deletion. There are over 100 nominations at this point, some of which have sat in Cat:D for two weeks now. I can't judge protologisms in Korean and they were nominated by a new user, so I'm looking for input on whether these nominations should be speedy-deleted. Pinging @YeBoy371 and (Notifying Atitarev, HappyMidnight, Tibidibi, Quadmix77, Kaepoong, AG202, The Editor's Apprentice, Saranamd, Lunabunn): Ultimateria (talk) 20:06, 4 March 2026 (UTC)Reply

For further information, I would also like to note that I have already carefully reviewed all edits by IJ13IJ13 and have placed deletion tags only on protologisms and mere creations that are not listed in any dictionary and are not even used as neologisms. Kafuka... (talk) 04:09, 5 March 2026 (UTC)Reply

Wiktionary:Requests for verification/CJK#Abab1245, IJ13IJ13 —Fish bowl (talk) 12:01, 5 March 2026 (UTC)Reply

@Fish bowl Among the requests, 이무기, 한새, 어둑서니, and 허깨비 are actual words, but IJ13IJ13 often added fake meanings for existing words so I have already edited those articles adequately. The rest are just made-up words. Kafuka... (talk) 06:19, 9 March 2026 (UTC)Reply

@Ultimateria, @Fish bowl. The user has been blocked by @Surjection. Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 05:02, 9 March 2026 (UTC)Reply

Adding ping for @Kafuka... Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 05:03, 9 March 2026 (UTC)Reply

@Atitarev: I am aware of that, but I wasn't sure how to proceed. They created over 200 pages, so RFV seems like the least expedient route. And I'm squeamish about speedy deletion for 100+ pages in a language I don't speak when the charge is lack of attestation (rather than SOP or other reasons). In these cases there is often consensus to delete all contributions even if there are legitimate ones mixed in. Or, since Kafuka already did the work of nominating certain entries, I'd just delete those if someone else could vouch for the nominations. Ultimateria (talk) 20:11, 9 March 2026 (UTC)Reply

取決於

Latest comment: 19 days ago4 comments4 people in discussion

Chinese. SoP: 取決 "depend" + 於 "in, on". — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 19:35, 10 March 2026 (UTC)Reply

I am leaning that 取決 and 取決於 both means "depend on" and hence leaning keep. Actually, 取決 alone is seldom used, but e.g. in [28], the 取決 is interchangeable with 取決於. Therefore, I think it is more like a blend. Sun8908 (talk) 02:53, 13 March 2026 (UTC)Reply

Delete. Many words are hardly used alone except in a grammatically correct structure. For example, 能事 (néngshì) is commom in 極盡……之能事／极尽……之能事 ― jíjìn...... zhī néngshì ― or similar structures otherwise I have never heard of. Maraschino Cherry (talk) 18:16, 28 April 2026 (UTC)Reply

I think we can use Template:+obj in 取决 like how English depend does. —— Ping me User:内存溢出的猫 plz!^📝瞄？_💬喵! 08:04, 20 May 2026 (UTC)Reply

次から次へ

Latest comment: 2 months ago3 comments3 people in discussion

Japanese. SOP, not different from 上から下へと or 右から左へと、ここからそこへと、隣から隣へと、前の人から次の人へと etc, or even with other particles, like 上に上にと、下へ下へと. You can have full sentences too: あふれた水が道路を川と流れる。At best it should be given as an example or a collocation under 次. — Sartma ^{【𒁾𒁉 ● 𒊭 𒌑𒊑𒀉𒁲】} 13:48, 16 March 2026 (UTC)Reply

See also Talk:次から次へ#と is optional.

I have added an {{rfd}} linking this discussion also in つぎからつぎへ which @The_dog2 created earlier today. Emanuele6 (talk) 14:35, 16 March 2026 (UTC)Reply

+1 for the suggestion of including this phrasal collocation in the Japanese 次 (tsugi, “next”) entry. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 18:20, 16 March 2026 (UTC)Reply

遠距離

Latest comment: 1 month ago3 comments3 people in discussion

Chinese. SOP. similar to 長距離, 短距離, 近距離, 中距離. --Kethyga (talk) 19:01, 17 March 2026 (UTC)Reply

Not sure how much the lemming principle applies, but online reference 便民查询网 includes an entry for this:

https://cidian.bmcx.com/yuanjuli__cidianchaxun/

‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 19:48, 17 March 2026 (UTC)Reply

I think, however, this entry is rather the one more reasonably to be kept. So my reason is that, whilst it is certainly just as commonly used as the words you have mentioned, the ones you listed are logical SoP per se, whereas this one literally means "far-distance" rather than long-distance. Despite that, it is very natural-sounding. Maraschino Cherry (talk) 04:43, 28 April 2026 (UTC)Reply

April 2026

哈基米南北绿豆

Latest comment: 19 days ago3 comments3 people in discussion

Chinese. It said that this is a "nonsense phrase". Also simplified characters should not be the main entry.--Mahogany115 (talk) 23:32, 21 April 2026 (UTC)Reply

Delete. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 20:34, 19 May 2026 (UTC)Reply

Are there guidelines on "nonsense phrases"? There are nonsense words on WT though, turlututu. —— Ping me User:内存溢出的猫 plz!^📝瞄？_💬喵! 08:11, 20 May 2026 (UTC)Reply

救生設備

Latest comment: 6 days ago4 comments3 people in discussion

Chinese. SoP: 救生 "to save a life" + 設備 "equipment" = "live-saving equipment". — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 04:42, 25 April 2026 (UTC)Reply

Delete per nom. Sun8908 (talk) 17:37, 26 April 2026 (UTC)Reply

Delete Linh Huynh (talk) 14:09, 18 May 2026 (UTC)Reply

RFD deleted. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 22:04, 1 June 2026 (UTC)Reply

多鄰國

Latest comment: 19 days ago11 comments3 people in discussion

Chinese per Wiktionary:BRAND. -- Ping me User:内存溢出的猫 plz!^📝瞄？_💬喵! 02:08, 27 April 2026 (UTC)Reply

Delete. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 17:30, 13 May 2026 (UTC)Reply

@Justinrleung @内存溢出的猫 The quotes span over three years now. You will have to purpose other reasons if you uphold the delete stance. Beefwiki (talk) 15:33, 16 May 2026 (UTC)Reply

@Beefwiki: The quotes don’t demonstrate that this word has integrated into the lexicon. Most of them explicitly talk about it as a language learning app, and the articles’ main focus are these types of apps. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 16:34, 16 May 2026 (UTC)Reply

I have hidden the quotes you saw at that time while inserted five new. Please check and comment on them. Beefwiki (talk) 07:15, 17 May 2026 (UTC)Reply

@Beefwiki:

2019 May 30: Earlier in the page, it says 這次的特輯是以多鄰國(Duolingo)這個語言學習APP相關的 - the previous context in this text clearly talks about the type of app before the meme is shown.
2024 May 6: borderline acceptable, but it still mentions the word "app". This isn't durably archived, so we would need to at least archive it using a webpage archiving service.
2025 April 3: This video shows the app interface and talks extensively about the app, so I wouldn't think this is a good quote.
2025 August 14: The video starts with 学习外语的软件多邻国 - again, not acceptable because it clearly tells you what the app is.
2025 September 17: The article is all about the app, and explicitly mentions an employee of the company (social media manager Bunrei Yamane). — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 23:25, 17 May 2026 (UTC)Reply

Your major concern regarding WT:BRAND is probably on mentioning "language app", identifying the product or service to which the brand name applies. However, I argue that most of the five quotes are not in the major topic of promoting Duolingo itself. The keyword is the material focus.

2019 May 30: the page focus is on non-official memes, especially about Duo (the green bird) . If you still complain that the explantory text violates the brand rule, we could focus the meme only (such as https://imgur.com/e1oNhCu).
2024 May 6: thanks for your approval, but I got some trouble on using archiving services. May you help me to archive that?
2025 April 3: the video is not really acceptable due to focus on the language learning feature on Duolingo, particularly from Mandarin to Cantonese.
2025 August 14: 学习外语的软件多邻国 is not the focus of the video, but instead the non-official horror game. Just using that sentence to belittle the horror game-theme is 斷章取義／断章取义 (duànzhāngqǔyì, “taking it out of context”)--strictly speaking, that sentence is the only reference outside of the horror game.
2025 September 17: fail even more thoroughly due to the mention on employee.

Beefwiki (talk) 09:36, 18 May 2026 (UTC)Reply

@Beefwiki: WT:BRAND says, "The text preceding and surrounding the citation must not identify the product or service to which the brand name applies, whether by stating explicitly or implicitly some feature or use of the product or service from which its type and purpose may be surmised, or some inherent quality that is necessary for an understanding of the author’s intent." That is why I would argue the 2025 August 14 quote is not acceptable, regardless of whether the whole video's focus is revolving around this word. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 18:59, 19 May 2026 (UTC)Reply

By learning what explicitly and implicitly means for the 2025 August 14 quote, I currently would also agree that it disobeys wt:brand. On the other hand, in https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV19RYsztEhw/ (showing same game played by same person) does not explicitly mention 学习外语软件. Is quote from this video acceptable? Beefwiki (talk) 10:10, 20 May 2026 (UTC)Reply

I've added three quotes from X (Citations:多鄰國) that should show this word's usage without any context of what it is. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 20:33, 19 May 2026 (UTC)Reply

Not durably archived, though.

I found one from 请向饮马处栖息 by 淡彩穿花, but it is a web novel without ISBN:

今天的多邻国还没有打卡！怪不得她总感觉好像忘了什么事情一样。

她一边惦记着手机里的多邻国，一边分心去蹭他：“我和周先生是偶然遇见的，我之前不认识他。我很多东西都不懂，他在旁边看到，就为我解释一下那些拍品的年代和特点。”

— Ping me User:内存溢出的猫 plz!^📝瞄？_💬喵! 07:39, 20 May 2026 (UTC)Reply

⿵𠘨⺀

Latest comment: 16 days ago4 comments2 people in discussion

I did quite a bit of work to improve this article which was recently created by another user @Pc20160106, only to realize that this character is already encoded & has an article "𭂬". Hence "⿵𠘨⺀" is redundant & should be deleted

-Best wishes

(zhēng)(鬱鬱鬱ㄓㄥ) 03:49, 29 April 2026 (UTC)Reply

@歯科医療20260423, the article "⿵𠘨⺀" already is encoded & exists as "𭂬" making "⿵𠘨⺀ redundant. Hence the need for deletion of redundant article

-Best wishes

(zhēng)(鬱鬱鬱ㄓㄥ) 17:51, 29 April 2026 (UTC)Reply

𭂬 seems to be a variant of 瓦 according to JMJ. I wonder if this is actually unifiable with ⿵𠘨⺀. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 18:49, 19 May 2026 (UTC)Reply

@Justinrleung My apologies, I somehow didn't see that you had commented here as well as in the "⿵𠘨⺀" talk section. Upon further research, I believe that ⿵𠘨⺀ is fully unifiable with 𭂬 in terms of form. This phenomenon of a simplified/shorthand form being structurally identical to a preëxisting variant character or character of an otherwise separate meaning/etymology is relatively common. The character 几 is a fantastic example of this phenomenon. That said, if anyone else has alternative viewpoints feel free to share them

-Best wishes

(zhēng)(鬱鬱鬱ㄓㄥ) 23:00, 22 May 2026 (UTC)Reply

犬隻管理員

Latest comment: 2 days ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Chinese. SoP: 犬隻 "dog" + 管理員 "manager" = "dog warden". — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 08:24, 29 April 2026 (UTC)Reply

Delete —Kethyga (talk) 14:24, 5 June 2026 (UTC)Reply

ペイヌハツカ

Latest comment: 1 month ago2 comments2 people in discussion

This appears to be a phantom Kuril Ainu form resulting from a misreading of the source. The source seems to have intended 「ペイ又ハワツカ」, i.e. pē “water” or wakka “water”, rather than a single form 「ペイヌハツカ」. This has already been discussed at Wiktionary:Tea room/2026/April#Doubt on the existence of ペイヌハツカ, where the issue was identified as 「又ハ」 being read as 「ヌハ」 in context. I think we can safely delete the page in question. Mkpoli (talk) 17:43, 29 April 2026 (UTC)Reply

Thank you for helping clear up what happened here. :)

Re: Ainu ワッカ, we already have an entry there. But re: Ainu ペイ, we don't yet have an entry for that. If we can confirm this word (also?) as "water" and not (just?) the "bubble" sense attested by Batchelor, we could presumably move (or really copy-paste, since that page already exists) some of the content over to there. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 18:53, 29 April 2026 (UTC)Reply

歷史遺產

Latest comment: 6 days ago3 comments2 people in discussion

Chinese. SoP: 歷史 "history" + 遺產 "heritage". — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 04:16, 1 May 2026 (UTC)Reply

Delete – wpi (talk) 16:09, 3 May 2026 (UTC)Reply

RFD deleted. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 22:07, 1 June 2026 (UTC)Reply

輕佻女子

Latest comment: 16 days ago3 comments3 people in discussion

Chinese.

[[輕佻]] + [[女子]]

'''Noun:''' '''[[minx]]'''; a [[flirtatious]] young woman or girl

WT:SOP, 輕佻 + 女子. —Fish bowl (talk) 23:09, 2 May 2026 (UTC)Reply

Delete Linh Huynh (talk) 14:36, 11 May 2026 (UTC)Reply

Delete. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 16:23, 22 May 2026 (UTC)Reply

よーろっぱあなぐま

Latest comment: 1 month ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Japanese. I don't think we need hiragana forms of marked loanwords (= move to ヨーロッパあなぐま). —Fish bowl (talk) 00:37, 3 May 2026 (UTC)Reply

Agreed. I didn't realize this existed when I created ヨーロッパあなぐま (yōroppa anaguma, “European badger”) or I would have moved it then. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 20:57, 4 May 2026 (UTC)Reply

黃葉つ

Latest comment: 1 month ago4 comments3 people in discussion

Old Japanese.

Or is it? If it wasn't for the language header (which puts it in Category:Japanese entries with incorrect language header) and the rfd template, there would be no mention of Old Japanese on the page at all.

Yes, it links to Old Japanese 黄葉つ, but the {{ja-see}} template it uses to do so is only looking for a Japanese entry, so it says:

(The following entry does not have a page created for it yet: 黄葉つ.)

Why bother? Chuck Entz (talk) 00:43, 4 May 2026 (UTC)Reply

Looks like it was created by Ookap (talk • contribs) in January 2025. There isn't (yet) any corresponding {{ojp-see}}, although presumably that should be doable.

@Ookap, you've been around a bit longer since then and might already have figured this out, still good to give you a heads-up -- please don't use {{ja-see}} or the other various ja-... templates for Old Japanese. :) ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 21:01, 4 May 2026 (UTC)Reply

Indeed I have. I only started seriously editing Japanese here in late 2024, so I was still learning the ropes; it's fine for it to be deleted.

My best guess is I saw the redlink on the {{ja-kanjitab}} and figured I'd make it. Which raises the question, why do we use {{ja-kanjitab}} for Old Japanese entries anyway? We have kanjitab templates for most other Japonic languages, so it can't be that hard to make an {{ojp-kanjitab}} if we need it. Ookap (talk) 21:38, 4 May 2026 (UTC)Reply

Ya, we should only be using {{ja-kanjitab}} on JA entries, not on OJP.

That said, years ago, we hadn't yet formally decided to split out OJP, so depending on the entry, that might have been a stale instance of {{ja-kanjitab}}. Caveat usuarius, I suppose? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 23:40, 4 May 2026 (UTC)Reply

阿穆爾

Latest comment: 25 days ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Chinese. Rfd-sense: "Amul, India's biggest dairy brand" (company name that does not meet WT:CFI). RcAlex36 (talk) 14:18, 10 May 2026 (UTC)Reply

Delete. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 17:27, 13 May 2026 (UTC)Reply

電視汁撈飯

Latest comment: 6 days ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Chinese. SoP: 電視汁 (television as something "consumed") + 撈 (mix) + 飯 (rice, meal). While 撈 is a common verb that collocates with 電視汁, there is syntactic flexibility as to where 電視汁 can appear, as shown in the examples at 電視汁. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 04:55, 15 May 2026 (UTC)Reply

Delete, while {{zh-co|電視汁撈飯|to watch television while eating|C}} may be put in 電視汁. Beefwiki (talk) 05:59, 2 June 2026 (UTC)Reply

歕雞胿仔

Latest comment: 21 days ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Chinese. SoP: 歕 "blow" + 雞胿仔 "balloon". — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 03:22, 18 May 2026 (UTC)Reply

外籍華人

Latest comment: 16 days ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Chinese. SoP: 外籍 "foreign nationality" + 華人 "person of Chinese origin/ethnicity". — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 16:22, 22 May 2026 (UTC)Reply

北冰洋

Latest comment: 6 days ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Chinese. Rfd-sense: "Beibingyang (type of orange soda)". Company name that does not meet WT:CFI? RcAlex36 (talk) 15:36, 23 May 2026 (UTC)Reply

@RcAlex36 Actually quite popular in Beijing, which I often order using this name in restaurants.

2015, 路寒, 蓬莱间1, →ISBN:
林夏喜滋滋地说，“到了楼下顺便再买瓶北冰洋，记住了吗？”
(please add an English translation of this quotation)
2021 August, 郭宝昌, 陶庆梅, 京剧究竟好在哪儿：了不起的游戏, 生活·读书·新知三联书店, →ISBN:
几轮听下来就不是放一句唱了，只放半句，到最后只放三秒，就俩字儿，输了的人少不得受罚，买几瓶“北冰洋”，或买两斤糖炒栗子、两包“大前门”之类，总之得出点儿血。
(please add an English translation of this quotation)
2022, 张明, “师大旧忆”, in 金融博览 [Financial View], number 10, →ISSN, page 42:
给女朋友来枝五块钱的玫瑰花，两人买上一支老冰棍与一瓶北冰洋，最后买上一份报纸，再到附近的双秀公园（门票两毛钱）找个树荫，就可以逍遥一下午了。
(please add an English translation of this quotation)
2023, Han Xiaohui, Shu Jinyu, “每个字都是用心换来的——访韩小蕙兼谈纪实文学集《协和大院》 [Every word is earned with care: An interview with Han Xiaohui and a discussion of the documentary literary collection Xiehe Courtyard]”, in 得一, editor, 名作欣赏, number 34, →ISSN, pages 41–47:
舒晋瑜：当时的工资，甚至一瓶北冰洋的价钱，都能记得清楚，作品写协和简史，其实在某种程度上也反映了中国的现代化进程。
(please add an English translation of this quotation)

——Ping me User:内存溢出的猫 plz!^📝瞄？_💬喵! 16:09, 1 June 2026 (UTC)Reply

蔣介石

Latest comment: 6 days ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Japanese. NSE, unlike 蔣光頭 / 蒋光头 (Jiǎng Guāngtóu). Delete 蒋介石 due to same reason. — This unsigned comment was added by Beefwiki (talk • contribs) at 14:33, 1 June 2026 (UTC).Reply

Delete. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 22:16, 1 June 2026 (UTC)Reply

在……上

Latest comment: 6 days ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Chinese. SoP, 在 goes with any other localizer (e.g., 裡, 下, 前, 外, etc.). — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 20:01, 1 June 2026 (UTC)Reply

花信

Latest comment: 5 days ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Chinese. Rfd-sense: Used other than figuratively or idiomatically . Even the quote is not illustrative of the sense. Beefwiki (talk) 10:07, 3 June 2026 (UTC)Reply

臺灣當局

Latest comment: 2 days ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Chinese. sop 臺灣+當局. similar combination such as 北京+當局, 華盛頓+當局.--Kethyga (talk) 14:21, 5 June 2026 (UTC)Reply

Keep — strongly idiomatic in officialese context, not mere SoP.
My response in a nutshell: 北京+當局, 華盛頓+當局 etc. disobey SoP by just the captial city as metonymy + authorities , but 臺灣當局 obeys by involving political stance, including the One China principle.
PRC means People's Republic of China, ROC means Republic of China here unless otherwise specified.

While I understand the concern about compositionality (臺灣／台湾 (Táiwān) + 當局／当局 (dāngjú)), this entry is not a generic sum of parts like the examples given. It is a fixed, conventionalized term of art in PRC official and diplomatic language with specific pragmatic and political implications that go beyond simply "authorities in Taiwan."

Specialized euphemistic usage in Mainland officialese: In PRC discourse, 臺灣當局／台湾当局 (Táiwān dāngjú) is the deliberately preferred phrasing to refer to the government on Taiwan without implying sovereignty or statehood. It is not interchangeable with 臺灣政府 ("Taiwan government") or similar neutral terms. Using 當局／当局 (dāngjú) ("authorities/regime") instead of 政府 (zhèngfǔ) ("government") is a conscious political choice rooted in the One China principle. This is codified in style guides, white papers, and high-level statements (e.g., Deng Xiaoping era and onward).
Non-predictable pragmatic force: A pure SoP reading would allow free substitution with other place names, but in practice, 臺灣當局 carries loaded connotations of non-recognition that 北京當局 or 華盛頓當局 do not.
- 北京當局 is occasionally used (often by critics or in specific contexts) but is not a standardized official euphemism denying legitimacy to the PRC government itself.
- 華盛頓當局 is rare journalistic shorthand at best and has no institutionalized diplomatic weight or calqued status in English ("Washington authorities"). It remains transparently compositional.
Calque and translation hub value: The English "Taiwan authorities" is a direct calque of this exact phrase, and the entry serves as a useful bridge for readers encountering it in cross-strait news, official documents, or translations. Wiktionary routinely keeps such specialized geopolitical/officialese terms (see similar retained entries in politics and diplomacy categories).
Durable attestation: It appears frequently in durably archived sources (PRC state media, diplomatic texts, etc.) as a set phrase, not ad hoc description. This meets the "fried egg test" in context: the whole is more than (and different from) the predictable sum of literal parts.

Conclusion: This is a clear case for keep under CFI idiomaticity exceptions for officialese, set phrases with pragmatic loading, and lexicographic utility. The counterexamples (北京當局, 華盛頓當局) are weaker and genuinely closer to SoP. I would oppose deletion. Beefwiki (talk) 14:55, 5 June 2026 (UTC)Reply

虎門銷煙

Latest comment: 2 days ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Chinese. historical incident, not dictionary entry. --Kethyga (talk) 14:40, 5 June 2026 (UTC)Reply

Keep. There are currently no regulations banned historical incidents as entries, else cat:Historical events (name category, i.e. It should contain names of specific historical events) cannot legally exist. Beefwiki (talk) 15:07, 5 June 2026 (UTC)Reply

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