Wiktionary:Requests for verification/Non-English

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{{rfap}} • {{rfdate}} • {{rfdef}} • {{rfd-redundant}} • {{rfe}} • {{rfex}} • {{rfi}} • {{rfp}}

All Wiktionary: namespace discussions 1 2 3 4 5 - All discussion pages 1 2 3 4 5

This page is for entries in any language other than English. For English entries, see Wiktionary:Requests for verification/English.

Scope of this request page:

  • In-scope: terms to be attested by providing quotations of their use
  • Out-of-scope: terms suspected to be multi-word sums of their parts such as “green leaf”



See also:

Overview: This page is for disputing the existence of terms or senses. It is for requests for attestation of a term or a sense, leading to deletion of the term or a sense unless an editor proves that the disputed term or sense meets the attestation criterion as specified in Criteria for inclusion, usually by providing citations from three durably archived sources. Requests for deletion based on the claim that the term or sense is nonidiomatic or "sum of parts" should be posted to Wiktionary:Requests for deletion. Requests to confirm that a certain etymology is correct should go in the Etymology scriptorium, and requests to confirm pronunciation is correct should go in the Tea Room.

Adding a request: To add a request for verification (attestation), add the template {{rfv}} or {{rfv-sense}} to the questioned entry, and then make a new section here. Those who would seek attestation after the term or sense is nominated will appreciate your doing at least a cursory check for such attestation before nominating it: Google Books is a good place to check, others are listed here (WT:SEA).

Answering a request by providing an attestation: To attest a disputed term, i.e. prove that the term is actually used and satisfies the requirement of attestation as specified in inclusion criteria, do one of the following:

  • Assert that the term is in clearly widespread use. (If this assertion is not obviously correct, or is challenged by multiple editors, it will likely be ignored, necessitating the following step.)
  • Cite, on the article page, usage of the word in permanently recorded media, conveying meaning, in at least three independent instances spanning at least a year. (Many languages are subject to other requirements; see WT:CFI.)

In any case, advise on this page that you have placed the citations on the entry page.

Closing a request: After a discussion has sat for more than a month without being "cited", or after a discussion has been "cited" for more than a week without challenge, the discussion may be closed. Closing a discussion normally consists of the following actions:

  • Deleting or removing the entry or sense (if it failed), or de-tagging it (if it passed). In either case, the edit summary or deletion summary should indicate what is happening.
  • Adding a comment to the discussion here with either RFV failed or RFV passed (emboldened), indicating what action was taken. This makes automatic archiving possible. Some editors strike out the discussion header at this time.

In some cases, the disposition is more complicated than simply "RFV failed" or "RFV passed" (for example, two senses may have been nominated, of which only one was cited).

Archiving a request: At least a week after a request has been closed, if no one has objected to its disposition, the request may be archived to the entry's talk-page. This consists of removing the discussion from this page, and copying it to the entry's talk-page (using {{archive-top|rfv}} + {{archive-bottom}}). Historically, it could also include simply commenting on the talk page with a link to the diff of the edit that removed the discussion from this page. Examples of discussions archived at talk pages: Talk:non-lemma, Talk:accident-blackspot.

Tagged RFVs


October 2016[edit]


RFV for the Latin coccothraustēs, which is currently defined as a New Latin adjective meaning "kernel-crushing". It wouldn't surprise me if this existed as a noun, but I don't think it's an adjective. Its Ancient Greek etymon, κοκκοθραύστης (kokkothraústēs, grosbeak), is a noun, and its derived binominal species name, Coccothraustes coccothraustes, could easily have its epithet explained as a reduplication of the generic name used in apposition (cf. Vulpes vulpes, Perdix perdix, etc.). — I.S.M.E.T.A. 14:46, 20 October 2016 (UTC)

Apparently, coccothraustes began its taxonomic life as a specific epithet in Loxia coccothraustes at AnimalBase. Following are other taxa that use it: Fringilla coccothraustes (L.), Pyrgita coccothraustes (L.), Sycoryctes coccothraustes, Syringophiloidus coccothraustes Skoracki 2011, Torotrogla coccothraustes Bochkov, Flannery & Spicer 2009. All are from the online database Index to Organism Names (ION)], which includes unaccepted names.
My excuse for not providing explicit citations is that the existence of a name is evidence that the taxon was used at least once. If necessary I could probably find actual citations. DCDuring TALK 17:19, 20 October 2016 (UTC)
@DCDuring: It goes all the way back to Linnæus? Goodness! Citations for the species' names will not be necessary. I'll try to look for uses of coccothraustēs (preferably as an adjective) outside binominal nomenclature. BTW, I love Coccothraustes coccothraustes coccothraustes; I've never seen that kind of re…&nsbp;triplication in taxonomy before. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 22:11, 20 October 2016 (UTC)
@DCDuring: I found two uses of Coccothraustus — does that mean anything to you? — I.S.M.E.T.A. 22:29, 20 October 2016 (UTC)
There is a genus in Cardinalidae called Caryothraustes (κάρυον (káruon, nut)), 2 species of New World grosbeaks. I don't see anything in w:Cardinalidae that has capensis as epithet. DCDuring TALK 23:16, 20 October 2016 (UTC)
Any animal name prior to 1758 isn't part of the current system of taxonomic nomenclature, but it looks like it's the cardinal. I notice that the first work treats Coccothraustes as distinct from Coccothraustus, cross-referencing the first to Kirschbeisser- whatever that is. Linnaeus does give synonyms from older works, but in the case of Loxia coccothraustes, they they all seem to be for just plain coccothraustes. Chuck Entz (talk) 03:10, 21 October 2016 (UTC)
I think the German name ("cherry-biter") indicates a diet, fruit, for Coccothraustus, that differs from that of the hawfinch (Coccothraustes), nuts and seeds, though the New Latin name indicates nuts and seeds are the diet. I suppose the German vernacular name is based on ignorance of the North American bird's actual diet and may be influenced by the bird's color.
I see no principled lexicographic reason to exclude pre-Linnean "Scientific Latin" names, but, as a practical matter, I see no great return on the extra effort required to document them. DCDuring TALK 10:57, 21 October 2016 (UTC)
Other projects extensively document modern taxonomic names. I don't know any that do the same for pre-Linnean names. For that reason it seems worthwhile to me. DTLHS (talk) 03:17, 22 October 2016 (UTC)
Pre-Linnaean names are legitimate, but there's less of a system to them, and their continuity with Linnaean names can't be assumed. In a way, they tend to be SOP: quite often they're just a short, descriptive Latin phrase. In this case, it seems to be a calque of an apparently obsolete German term (Kirschbeisser) for the hawfinch, which is now known as the Kernbeisser. All of these names refer to its habit of biting through cherries to get to the pits, which it cracks with its massive beak so it can eat the kernel inside. Another generic name, Carpodacus, has a similar meaning: from καρπός (karpós, fruit) + δάκος (dákos, biter). Chuck Entz (talk) 09:03, 22 October 2016 (UTC)
@ I.S.M.E.T.A., 22:29, 20 October 2016: That are two mentionings and not usages of "Coccothraustus Capensis ruber" which is said to be a bird.
By the entry and its version history, it's quite obvious that coccothraustes is about a Translingual taxonomic word as in "Coccothraustes coccothraustes" and "Loxia coccothraustes". "Loxia Coccothraustes" (genitive "Loxiae Coccothraustis", abbreviation "Lox. Coccothraustes") and *"Loxia coccothraustes" (accusative "Loxiam coccothraustem", ablative "Loxia coccothrauste") do also appear in Latin, but it's likely better just Translingual Loxia Coccothraustes and Loxia coccothraustes and Translingual Coccothraustes and coccothraustes. As for the POS, Translingual Coccothraustes and coccothraustes could indeed be a noun instead of adjective.
If one argues for having Latin entries based on the attestion in Latin texts and the inflection, then likely Loxia and Vulpes deserve to have Latin entries too and then an informative label and/or gloss has to be added as (ATM) it's not just "New Latin" but "New Latin, taxonomy [or taxonomics], in taxonomic names [or as part of taxonomic names]". - 12:31, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
BTW: books.google.com/books?id=NUEAAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA2&dq=coccothraustes & books.google.com/books?id=cHsZAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA66&dq=coccothraustes + books.google.com/books?id=GGVVAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA300&dq=coccothraustes (by Carolus Linnaeus (Carolus a Linné)) & books.google.com/books?id=ZzVXAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA381dq=coccothraustes (with acc. Coccothraustem) 're Latin & 've capped "Coccothraustes", acc. "Coccothraustem". Anyhow, entry seems to be a malformated Trans entry (wrong lang)...

March 2017[edit]


As mentioned in the Tea room, this seems to be a dead end: it's said to be an adjective, and to be an alternative form of polus. The only problem is that there's no adjective sense at polus, nor can I find a likely candidate in Lewis & Short at Perseus. There is pollulus, but that's an alternative form of polulus, a diminutive of polus. We thus have an entry and a complete set of inflected forms, but no definition and no examples of usage. Is this a complete figment of User:SemperBlotto's imagination, or is there a real word out there somewhere?

By the way, I tried searching for this, but there are scannos that mistake just about any letter with a vertical stroke for one or more ls. If it helps any, SB was apparently working on taxonomic names from User:Pengo/Latin/Most wanted at the time he created this. Chuck Entz (talk) 01:01, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

  • Probably a cockup. If nobody can dind anything, I'll delete it all. SemperBlotto (talk) 18:19, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
It is said that DMBLS, "The Dictionary of Medieval Latin from British Sources", contains "pollus v. 1 pola, 3 polus, 3 pullus". So it might be a British Mediaeval Latin spelling. - 21:02, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
An Eighth-Century Latin–Anglo-Saxon Glossary has "polla, fusca" (possibly a mentioning) where "polla" could be ML for pulla (from pullus).
Thus pollus could be an alt form of pullus instead of polus. Alternatively the POS of pollus could be wrong and then it could be an alt form of a noun. - 08:46, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

and 𫢙[edit]

RFV for Chinese. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 00:27, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

For 働, see the talk page.
For 𫢙, I wonder if the evidence for inclusion in Unicode can be located... —suzukaze (tc) 00:41, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
Unicode got 𫢙 from 中國大百科全書, according to its G source (GBK-1000.40). — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 00:43, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
I know about that part; I meant specifically within the patchwork PDFs they assemble and dump into http://appsrv.cse.cuhk.edu.hk/~irg/. —suzukaze (tc) 00:46, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
I see. That will take some fishing. As for 働, why don't we just have a {{zh-see}}? — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 00:49, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
I've traced 𫢙 back to the extension D submission by the PRC (IRGN1262), which lists it under characters used in personal names. I don't see evidence from the original source, though. (It might be there, but I can't find it at the moment.) — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 05:22, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
Is it a good idea to verify ALL kokuji and Japanese shinjitai, which are different from Chinese simp. forms for their existence in Chinese and Korean? Unihan just does a misservice by providing reading for characters that are not used in these languages, IMO.--Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 07:15, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

Assuming 勞働 exists, then it seems to me that should be sufficient for keeping in some form – either an "only in" entry the way it is now, or a {{zh-see}} the way Justinrleung suggests. —Granger (talk · contribs) 02:56, 30 November 2018 (UTC)


I'm pretty sure it's only used as a component of a character. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 07:04, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

It is a variant of 𬊇 (U+2C287, ⿱炏乂): [1]. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 01:59, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
@TAKASUGI Shinji: any evidence though? — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 05:53, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
I mean 𤇾 was from 𬊇. 𤇾 is used only as a component, as you say. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 03:34, 19 November 2017 (UTC)
@TAKASUGI Shinji: Then I think we should just have something like {{n-g|Only used as a character component.}}. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 05:25, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

Three sites on which the component 𤇾 appears:

http://www.zdic.net/z/94/js/241FE.htm (a page exclusively devoted to 𤇾; definition: brilliant)

https://ctext.org/dictionary.pl?if=gb&char=𤇾 (another page exclusively devoted to 𤇾; definition: brilliant)

http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/lexi-mf/search.php?word=鎣 (which includes the sentence: 「鎣」從「金」,「𤇾」聲,表示一種長頸瓶。)

I am adamantly in support of retaining this page on wiktionary. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 08:29, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

@Geographyinitiative: The definition "brilliant" is ultimately from the Unihan database, which is known to be unreliable for definitions. I think it can only merit inclusion as a character component. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 06:03, 26 February 2018 (UTC)
@Justinrleung: Yeah, I agree. I'm guessing 'brilliant' was an definition derived from 荧. My only question is- what is the ultimate source for the yìng (fourth tone) reading? Thanks for your numerous corrections to pages I have edited. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 08:07, 26 February 2018 (UTC)
@Geographyinitiative: The pronunciation also comes from the Unihan Database, but I'm not sure where they got it. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 14:05, 26 February 2018 (UTC)
@Justinrleung: https://ctext.org/dictionary.pl?if=gb&char=𤇾 says "康熙字典: 頁671第08" but I couldn't find anything on that page in Kangxi- maybe I don't understand the system there-- https://ctext.org/library.pl?if=gb&file=77415&page=0671#08 My real question is, if the Unihan people were really just making stuff up, why would they make this ying4 instead of ying2? (http://www.zdic.net/z/94/js/241FE.htm has ying4 too) There's got to be something behind "ying4"- maybe a typo? Seems strange that so many characters in this phonetic series would be pronounced ying1 or ying2 and then suddenly the phonetic component is pronounced ying4. If I were just making up pronunciations, I would say that 𤇾 should be pronounced ying2. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 14:36, 26 February 2018 (UTC)
@Geographyinitiative: Again, the Kangxi page number is from the Unihan database (0671.081). The 1 at the end indicates that it does not actually exist in the Kangxi Dictionary, but page 671, character 8 would be its hypothetical position in the dictionary if it were to be included in the Kangxi Dictionary. I don't think the people who made the database are making stuff up, but they may be using erroneous sources. I have no idea where yìng came from. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 15:05, 26 February 2018 (UTC)
@Justinrleung: Is there a way to contact the people who complied the Unihan database and ask about the origin of the definition and pronunciation for 𤇾? Might be fun. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 17:14, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

illic and istic[edit]

For the inflection, as sometimes the templates in Wiktionary create incorrect forms.

  • Dictionaries seem not to mention a genitive or dative singular or most of the plural forms.
  • Allen and Greenough's grammar has only nom. sg., acc. sg., abl. sg. and neuter nom. and acc. pl., which might mean other forms are unattested.
  • Imman. Joh. Gerh. Scheller's grammar has similar forms as Allen and Greenough, without genitive and dative singular and without many plural forms too.
    BTW: He mentions alternative forms with h for istic, as isthic, isthaec, isthoc which might be Medieval or New Latin alternative forms. L&S has "istic (not isthic), aec, oc, and uc" (bolding added).
  • T. Hewitt Key's grammar has illic with gen. illiusce (ilius + -ce), and dat. illic but as "D*. illic, illic, illic." with the note "* The dative illic is only used as an adverb.". In the plural he has different forms than Wiktionary. Wiktionary's plural of illic resembles the plural of ille, except of some neuter forms. Key's forms often resembles the plural of ille + -ce, with some exceptions. He has dat. and abl. of all genders illisce (illis + -ce), nom. illice (illi + -ce) / illaec / illaec, acc. illosce (illos + -ce) / illasce (illas + -ce) / illaec, gen. illorunc / illarunc / illorunc (-or- and -ar- as in -orum and -arum but with -unc from acc. sg. instead of -um?). In an addition he says, that to the forms ending with c an e might be added as illunce.
    Some forms with -ce are also mentioned by others, e.g. by Allen and Greenough who give illiusce, isce as examples, but not as forms of illic.
  • Wiktionary's forms in the singular could be formed in analogy with hic, but that doesn't attest forms for illic and istic. In the plural many forms should come from bare ille/iste without the -ce or -c part, which doesn't attest forms for illic and istic too.

So it might be that Allen and Greenough and Scheller are correct. Forms of ille and iste are forms of illeand iste and not of illic and istic. Forms of ille with -ce could be mentioned in a usage note, as related terms or as see also in illic. - 02:39, 31 March 2017 (UTC) -- as far as I can tell, the templates are just applying the basic inflectional pattern for "hic" to these words (except the non-oblique neuter singular of illic is given as illuc instead of illoc). The most obviously fishy-looking one is illūc for neuter ablative, since the neuter is normally the same as the masculine in cases other than nominative, accusative, and vocative -- but I don't know what is and isn't actually attested in ancient texts for these words... AnonMoos (talk) 14:01, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
That does better explain Wiktionary's forms, but doesn't change much:
  • illī as plural of illic looks like illī from ille.
  • many forms should be unattested, namely genitive and dative singular and most plural forms except the neuter forms illaec and istaec. An Allen & Greenough: archive.org/stream/allengreenoughsn00alleiala#page/66/mode/2up (p. 67) - which BTW has neuter abl. illōc and istōc.
- 22:22, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
Ok, then neuter ablative illūc on the illic page is most definitely an error. The others are merely extrapolations -- and such templates do a lot of extrapolating all the time (whenever there's some combination of verb person/number/tense/voice/mood or noun number/case or adjective gender/number/case which doesn't happen to be attested in ancient texts). AnonMoos (talk) 09:39, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
In case of nouns and verbs one often can 'extrapolate' forms, but even for that there are exceptions, and extrapolating forms of 'normal' nouns and verbs is different from extrapolating pronoun forms. In case of nouns and verbs, one can compare words: For example one can compare laudare and amare, so one can assume a form laudat if one finds amat. But what word could be used to compare it with illic and istic? illic and istic come from -ce - but hic? The c in hic might be related to -ce, but that doesn't mean that it's obviously related or that hic is considered to have -ce in it. As Allen and Greenough mention terms like "hûiusce" (hujus + ce) and "hunce", hic maybe wasn't seen to be formed as some term suffixed with -ce. Also illī is already the plural of ille and istī is already the plural of iste, while for hīc with plural hī there's no *he with plural *hī. So hic is different from illic and istic. - 18:15, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
A reference for the inflection with three cases got added, and more older ones could easily be added:
  • 1861, Lewis Marcus, A Latin grammar, London, page 26 - it explains the etymology as is + hic and ille + hic
  • 1854, Peter Bullions, The Principles of Latin Grammar, New York, page 77 - explains it as ille and iste + hic
  • 1790, Imman. Joh. Gerh. Schellers ausführliche lateinische Sprachlehre oder sogenannte Grammatik, 3rd edition, Leipzig, page 122 - also explains it as ille and iste + hic, and mentions isthic
  • 1862, T. Hewitt Key, A Latin Grammar, London, page 50 and 51 - gives full inflection but has different forms than wiktionary and suppletively adds forms with complete -ce like illiusce for genitive
By google book search it seems that 21st century grammars do not mention these pronouns - which underlines the fact that 21st century grammars are incomplete. - 00:41, 16 May 2017 (UTC)

April 2017[edit]

Compounds with quis[edit]


For the feminine quaequam and the plural.
Dictionaries and also some grammars are a bit vague about the declension and usage of compounds with qui and quis.

  • Some dictionaries mention quaequam, but as far as I saw without cite, and as far as I saw dictionaries don't mention a plural. However, dictionaries mention that quisquam is used for the feminine (in "Plaut." and "Ter."), and BTW they mention that quīvīs is also an ablative of quīvīs (in "Ter.").
    One dictionary had an example with "quaequam lab. qualitas, Cael. Aur." under the word labilis. However, in Caelius Aurelianus' text it is "aut cujusquam labilis qualitatis" (or "aut cuiusquam labilis qualitatis") and the dictionary should have changed the case from genitive to nominative (which BTW is done not rarely).
    Maybe note that the conjunction quamquam which looks like a feminine accusative is an own word.
    Maybe also note that Wiktionary's table has feminine quaequam with ablative quōquam and not *quāquam. Maybe also compare with Wiktionary's quispiam where the adjectival feminine is quaepiam with ablative quāpiam while the substantival feminine is quispiam with ablative quōpiam.
  • Allen & Greenough state this: "The indefinite pronouns quispiam, some, any, and quisquam, any at all, are used both as substantives and as adjectives. [...] Quisquam is both masculine and feminine; the neuter is quidquam (quicquam), substantive only; there is no plural."
  • Friedrich Neue, Formenlehre der Lateinischen Sprache, 2nd part, 2nd edition, Berlin, 1875, p. 241-246: "Das Neutrum von quicumque ist überall quodcumque, welches gleich dem einfachen Pronomen relat. quod auch substantivisch gebraucht wird. Zu quisquam und quisquis ist nur das Neutr. quicquam oder quidquam und quicquid oder quidquid nachzuweisen, wiewohl Diom. 1 S. 321 ein quodquam und Mar. Victor. 1 S. 2460 neben quicquam und quicquid ein quocquod aufführt. [...] Quicquam facinus hat Plaut. Men. 3, 1, 2 und Merc. 1, 2, 43; suum quidquid genus talearum Cato R. R. 48, 1, quidquid solamen humandi est Verg. Aen. 10, 493, und quidquid est nomen Plaut. bei Serv. [...] Die übrigen oben angeführten Composita haben doppelte Form des Neutrum, mit quid substantivisch, mit quod adjectivisch. [....] Quivis und quisquam gestatten den Ablat. Sing. quivis und quiquam, vergl. über den Ablat. qui und aliqui unter 36 und 41. [...] Auch quisquam dient als Femin. [...] Nicht allein auf weibliche Personen wird quisquam angewandt, sondern auch [...]. Quisquam hat keinen Plur. [...] Quisquam steht gern substantivisch. Doch auch si cuiquam generi hominum und si cuiquam ordini Cic. Verr. Acc. 2, 6, 17, cuiquam legationi Fam. 3, 10, 6 [...] cuiusquam rei Quintil. 10, 2, 6, a quoquam incepto Suet. Cäs. 59." — i.e.: [shortend and paraphrased: quodcumque is also used substantivally.] For quisquam and quisquis only the neuter quicquam or quidquam and quicquid or quidquid are attestable, although Diom. has a quodquam and Marc. Victor. besdes quicquam and quicquid a quocquod. [...] [cites, see the quote]. [...] The other above mentioned compounds have a double form for the neuter, with quid substantivally, with quod adjectivally. [....] Quivis and quisquam can have the ablative singular quivis and quiquam, compare about the ablative qui and aliqui under 36 and 41. [cites.] [...] Quisquam serves as feminine too. [Mentioning that old grammarians declined this word through all genders and numers.] [Cites.] Quisquam is not only used for female persons, but also [cites which show quisquam used with or in reference of things]. [...] Quisquam has no plural. [...] [Mentioning of an old incorrect reading with *quibusquam which is quibusdam.] Quisquam is often used substantivally. But also [cites with adjectival use, for some cites see the quote].
    Mentionings in grammars don't attest words. The mentionings can be mentioned, but in usage notes and not in the declension table. An old misreading maybe could be mentioned too, but shouldn't attest anything and should belong into a usage note and not the declension table.
  • The masculine and feminine is used both substantivally and adjectivally.
    Plautus uses quisquam adjectivally for the feminine: "quod neque ego habeo neque quisquam alia mulier, ut perhibent viri" (Plaut. Cist.; LCL: "A mind is something I haven't got, or any other women, either, according to the men").
    The neuter dative, any maybe also the genitive or ablative, is used adjectivally too, compare with the examples in F. Neue: "Quisquam steht gern substantivisch [= Quisquam is often used substantivally]. Doch auch [= But also] si cuiquam [dat.] generi [dat. of the neuter genus] hominum [gen. pl. of homo] und [= and] si cuiquam [dat.] ordini [dat. of the masculine ordo] Cic. Verr. Acc. 2, 6, 17, cuiquam [dat.] legationi [dat. of the feminine legatio] Fam. 3, 10, 6 [...] cuiusquam [gen.] rei [gen. of the feminine res] Quintil. 10, 2, 6, a quoquam [abl.] incepto [abl. of the neuter inceptum(?)] Suet. Cäs. 59.". Even an adjectivally used quidquam or quicquam seems to be attested although Allen & Greenough do not mention it and the adjectivally used cuiquam could also belong to an unattested (or New Latin) *quodquam. Besides F. Neue's examples an older grammar stated that Plautus used quicquam adjectivally (in "numquam/Numquam quicquam facinus feci peius/pejus neque scelestius" in Menaechmi III. LCL has "Plus triginta annis natus sum, quom interea loci, | numquam quicquam facinus feci peius neque scelestius, | quam hodie, quom in contionem mediam me immersi miser." with "More than thirty years I've lived, and never in all that time have I done a worse or more accursed deed than to-day when I immersed myself, poor fool, in the middle of that public meeting." Well, in this English translation a word like any does not appear, but that doesn't say anything about the Latin text.
  • The ablative quīquam seems to be used substantivally in Plautus: "ne a quoquam acciperes alio mercedem annuam, nisi ab sese, nec cum quiquam limares caput" (Plaut. Bacch. at Non.; LCL: "Not to let you take a yearly fee from anyone else but him, or rub heads with anyone"). F. Neue also has examples with adjectival use. So it should be a form of both the substantival and the adjectival pronoun. The ablative quīvīs however could, by attestion, be restricted to the adjectival pronoun.
  • Doubtful forms, below in the summary table mentioned in []:
    • Dictionaries mention a masculine nominative quiquam.
      "old form QVIQVAM, S. C. Bacch." or "QVIQVAM, S. C. de Bacch." This should be senatus consultum de Bacchanalibus. www.hs-augsburg.de/~harsch/Chronologia/Lsante02/Bacchanalia/bac_orig.html once has "QVI[S]QVAM", and w:en:Senatus consultum de Bacchanalibus has "QVISQVAM" (under "Text") or "qui[s]quam" (under "Transliteration into classical Latin"). As the text often has "QVISQVAM" or "quisquam", the single "QVI[S]QVAM" or "qui[s]quam" might look like an error.
      "quīquam = quisquam, Verg. georg. 4, 447.". www.thelatinlibrary.com/vergil/geo4.shtml and the text at perseus.tufts.edu have "Scis, Proteu, scis ipse; neque est te fallere quicquam sed tu desine velle." there; latin.packhum.org/loc/690/2/0#3 has "scis, Proteu, scis ipse, neque est te fallere quicquam:".
      So this form seems to be doubtful. With *quaequam the form *quiquam would make some sense, but as *quaequam seems to be less correct, *quiquam too seems to be less correct.
    • Older grammars have quenquam besides quemquam, and the form with n can also be found in New Latin texts and older editions of ancient authors. Maybe it's a ML or NL mistake like isthic for istic? For the conjunction quamquam dictionaries mention the form quanquam too and refer to the conjunction quamquam, where sometimes the form with n is mentioned too and sometimes not.
    • The adjectival neuter nominative quodquam/quocquam is mentioned in some older grammars.
    • The nominative *quaequam is mentioned in dictionaries and older grammars. Older grammars also mention the ablative *quāquam, and sometimes but sometimes not the accusative *quamquam (there is a conjunction of the same form: quamquam) or *quanquam (which might also be an alternative form for the conjunction).
      F. Neue has an example with feminine quemquam, but the noun was corrected, so maybe one could argue that quemquam has to be corrected too. One grammar gave the accusative quamquam with reference "Plaut. Mil. IV, 2, 68", which is also F. Neue's example, and he writes: "und quemquam porcellam Mil. 4, 2, 68 (im vet., decurt. und Vat. des Plaut. proculem, in den Hdschr. [= in the manuscripts] des Prisc. 5, 3, 13 S. 645 proculenam und porculaenam, porcellam ist eine Verbesserung [= is a correction] von Reiz)."
      After looking into more older grammars, it seems that if a grammar mentions quaequam or quamquam and if it gives a reference for it, it is Plautus' Miles gloriosus IV. As some editions have quemquam and as F. Neue mentions various forms of the substantive, it's a doubtful passage. As ATM this seems to be the only cite for the feminine quaequam, quamquam, quaquam, and as the feminine quisquam is attested, and as the substantival quidquam (quicquam) is used adjectivally too, it seems to be more likely that quemquam is the correct word.
  • With the adjectival forms feminine quisquam and doubtful quemquam and neuter quicquam, it looks like the adjectival pronoun is declined like the substantival pronoun. As Plautus is the common reference, it might however be the Old Latin declension. As dictionaries and older grammar mention forms like quaequam, quamquam, quāquam and quodquam/quocquam, these forms could exist in Medieval or New Latin, but would require a label or qualifier.

So it looks like quisquam is thus declined:

substantivally adjectivally
sg. sg.
m./f. n. m. f. n.
nom. quisquam quidquam/quicquam quisquam quisquam / [quaequam] quicquam / [quodquam/quocquam]
gen. cujusquam
(cuiusquam, or cûiusquam by Allen's and Greenough's notation instead of a misleading cūiusquam to denote the "consonant i")
(cuiusquam etc.)
dat. cuiquam cuiquam
acc. quemquam
quidquam/quicquam quemquam
[quemquam / quamquam]
[ [quenquam] / [quanquam] ]
quicquam / [quodquam/quocquam]
abl. quōquam
also quīquam
quōquam quōquam
also quīquam
[quōquam / quāquam] quōquam

BTW: Is the the feminine of the substantival pronoun quispiam attested?
- 20:59, 14 April 2017 - 08:09, 15 April 2017 (UTC)


RFV for:

  • feminine ablative singular quāquā used substantivally and not just adjectivally
  • feminine accusative singular quamquam and feminine plurals

Rationale and notes:

  • Allen and Greenough state after giving some forms: "Other cases are cited, but have no authority", which leads to the question whether or not it's correct. Are there other cites with "authority" (whatever that's supposed to mean), or for some forms even cites (and may thay be without "authority")?
  • As for quibusquibus the given cite depends on edition (see quisquis#Usage notes). There could be other cites - but are there any?
    As for quīquī some interpretations of cites should be wrong (by mistaking an ablative singular for nominative plural), and some could depend on the edition.
    There might be cites for fem. acc. sg. quamquam and fem. plurals, but the cites seem to be doubtful, i.e. they contain errors or depend on manuscript or edition.
    • If it depends on the manuscript or edition, there should be a note.
    • There could also be Medieval or New Latin cites, but then there should be a label or note.
  • Feminine ablative quāquā could, by attestation, be restricted to adjectival use (some might say that it's then not a pronoun form but an adjective form).
  • Nominative plural quīquī and plural genitive quōrumquōrum could be unattested too, but these forms make sense if there is quōsquōs, quibusquibus or neuter quaequae (for these compare the notes in quisquis).
    For the feminines it's different: As there is feminine nominative singular quisquis, one could also assume that the other feminines are or would be like the masculine too, that is, the forms could be common. From quāquā one could derive the other feminines, but that only works if quāquā is attested substantivally and then one could derive two forms, an older one from quisquis, a later one from quāquā.


  • See quisquis for some citations and notes.
  • Allen and Greenough's New Latin Grammar for schools and colleges founded on comparative grammar, edited by J. B. Greenough, G. L. Kittredge, A. A. Howard and Benj. L. D'Ooge, 1903, p. 69:
    "In quisquis whoever, both parts are declined, but the only forms in common use are quisquis, quidquid (quicquid) and quōquō.
    Note 1.–Rare forms are quemquem and quibisquibus; an ablative quīquī is sometimes found in early Latin; the ablative feminine quāquā is both late and rare. Cuicui occurs as a genitive in the phrase cuicui modī, of whatever kind. Other cases are cited, but have no authority. In early Latin quisquis is occasionally feminine.
    Note 2.–Quisquis is usually substantive, except in the ablative quōquō, which is more commonly an adjective."
    • Maybe the late and rare feminine ablative quāquā is commonly or even only used adjectivally?
  • Friedrich Neue, Formenlehre der Lateinischen Sprache, 2nd part, 2nd edition, Berlin, 1875, p. 240-241 & 245 and 246-249:
    Original: "42. [...] quisquis auch adjectivisch in quisquis color Verg. Ge. 2, 256 im Pal., im Med. und Bern. b c m. sec. und bei Serv., und Horat. Serm. 2, 1, 60, quisquis honos Verg. Aen. 10, 493, quisquis erit ventus Plin. H. N. 18, 34, 77, 339. [...]
    Der Dat. und Ablat. Plur. beinahe aller dieser Pronomina hat quibus, nicht quis. So [...] quibusquibus Liv. 41, 8, 10 [...]
    44. Quisquis [...] hatte in der guten Zeit keine eigene Form für das Femin. Quamquam rem a quoquo cognoverit ist zwar bei Cic. de orat. 1, 15, 67 in den Lag. 13 und 32 und mehreren andern, aber in mehreren Büchern quamque, statt dessen in den Ausg. [= Ausgaben] quamcumque; und quaequae in ceterae naturae suis seminibus quaequae gignuntur Cic. N. D. 2, 22, 58 ist nach dem Leid. A und Erl. in quaeque berichtigt. Die Dramatiker gebrauchen quisquis [...] mit Beziehung auf eine weibliche Person. Mulier, quisquis es Plaut. Cist. 2, 3, 66, liberalist quisquis est von der vorher erwähnten furtiva virgo Persa 4, 3, 76, quisquis es, quae parentis in tam angustum tuos locum compegeris Rud. 4, 4, 102. Dazu kommen die unter 33 nach Non. S. 197 angeführten Stellen des Liv. Andr., Cäcil. und Pacuv.
    [...] Quaqua als Pronomen [...] ist zuerst in quaqua de re Tac. Ann. 6, 7, dann quoquo nomine quoquo ritu quaqua facie Appul. Met. 11, 2 S. 755 (in den Flor. 1, 3 quaq; in den Guelf. 1. 2 und anderen Büchern quaque); quaqua ratione C. I. L. 3, 781 Z. 19 und wahrscheinlich Z. 2, Scäv. Dig. 32, 41 § 9, Ulpian. Dig. 37, 14, 16. 40, 12, 7. 45, 3, 5. 49, 5, 5, Paul. 17, 2, 3 § 1, Marcian. 34, 4, 13, Pompej. comment. S. 74 (130); ex quaqua causa Gaius Dig. 29, 1, 17 § 1, quaqua exceptione Ulpian. 44, 4, 2 § 5; quaqua aetate Tert. de anima 56, quaqua parte Pompej. comment. S. 387 (269) und 400 (275).
    [...] Quaequae als Neutr. Scäv. Dig. 34, 3, 28 § 1 aus einem Testament: Quibusque legata in eo testamento quod incideram dedi, omnia rata esse et quaequae scripta sunt volo; und vielleicht Sen. benef. 2, 4, 1 ubi, quaequae impetrasti, rogandum est nach dem Meil. 5, in welchem queque ist (in mehreren Büchern quoque, in einzelnen quod und quid). Aber falsch ist [examples with errors and corrections]. Falsch ferner als Fem. [another example with an error and correction]. Ut in dote essent fructus quosquos percepisset Ulpian. Dig. 23, 4, 4; aber unrichtig quosquos proxumus nanctus est montes, in iis castra posuit Liv. 27, 28, 2 im Put., Med., Colb., Bamb. und in den Pal. Über quibusquibus vergl. unter 42, und über die ganze Declination von quisquis Madvig zu Cic. Fin. 3, 14, 45."
    Translation: "42. [...] quisquis also adjectivally in [cites].
    The dative and ablative plural of almost all of these pronouns (i.e. pronouns compounded from qui or quis) has quibus, not quis. So [...] quibusquibus in Liv.
    44. Quisquis [...] didn't have an own form for the feminine in the good time. [shortend and paraphrased: The feminines quamquam and quaequae in some texts are doubtful or were corrected.] The dramatists use quisquis [...] with relation to a female person. [cites.]
    [...] Quaqua as pronoun in [cites].
    [...] Quaequae as neuter in [reference] out of an testament: [cite]. But wrong is [examples with errors and corrections]. Also wrong as feminine is [another example with an error and correction]. [cite with quosquos]; but incorrect is [an incorrect example with quosquos]. About quibusquibus see under 42, and about the whole declension of quisquis see [reference]."
    • So can one say that the feminines quamquam and quaequae do exist (that is, exist in ancient Latin)?
  • L&S: "quī-qui, pron. indef., for quisquis, whosoever (very rare): quiqui est, Plaut. Aul. 4, 10, 45.", and "quis-quis, quaeque, quodquod, and subst. quicquid, quidquid". Other dictionaries mention quiqui, quaequae and quodquod too. Feminine quaequae and adjectival neuter quodquod seem to be doubtful (cp. F. Neue). For quīquī see below.
  • The given references for quīquī in various sources are:
    (a) as nom. sg.: quiqui pro quisquis in neque partem tibi ab eo quiqui est indipisces Plaut. Aul. 4, 10, 44/45, is ita appellatur quiqui admittit Varro R. R. 2, 7, 8;
    (b) as abl. sg.: Pl. Men. 1159;
    (c) as nom. pl.: Plaut. Cas. 3, 1, 10, quiqui licebunt Men. 1159 = 5, 9, 97, Poen. 3, 2, 11; Liv. 29, 19, 9 in Put. m. pr.;
    (d) without mentioning a case: esto ut hi sint, quiqui integri sunt, et sani, Cic. Sest. 45, 97; quiqui licebunt, Plaut. Men. 1159 (with translation rather implying it to be abl. sg. than nom. sg. or nom. pl.).
    Plaut. Men. 5, 9, 97 and Plaut. Men. 1159 is be the same, and it is once given as a source for a ablative and once for a plural which doesn't work.
    For me it seems that Cas. "cum quiqui" and Poen. "cum quiqui" are abl., and Men. "venibunt quiqui licebunt" might be too although it might look like a pl. as the verbs are in pl.
    There are editions of Plautus' Aulularia with qui instead of quiqui, and it does depend on the edition. The rerum rusticarum de agri cultura at www.thelatinlibrary.com/varro.html does not have quiqui. And looking in various books at books.google it does indeed depend on the edition.
    As for "Liv. 29, 19, 9 in Put. m. pr.", "m. pr." should mean manu propria = by one's own hand and Put. should denote a manuscript or edition. The text at www.thelatinlibrary.com/livy/liv.29.shtml doesn't have quiqui. So it might depend on the manuscript or edition.
    F. Neue stated regarding "esto ut hi sint, quiqui integri sunt, et sani, Cic. Sest. 45, 97" that it does appear in editions but not in manuscripts. At www.thelatinlibrary.com/cicero/sestio.shtml it does not appear but "esto igitur ut ii sint, [...], qui et integri sunt et sani [...].".
    So abl. sg quiqui should exist (and is also mentioned in A&G), while nom. sg. and nom. pl. quiqui seem to be doubtful and could be cases for A&G's "Other cases are cited, but have no authority."

From what I've seen, there could be three forms:

  • substantivally used: quisquis, quisquis, quidquid (quicquid) - plurals do occur, but could be doubtful (quisquis#Usage notes)
  • adjectivally used: quisquis, *quisquis, quidquid (quicquid) - the feminine could be unattested
  • adjectivally used: quisquis, *quaequae (abl. quāquā), *quodquod (quocquod) - the feminine except abl. quāquā and the neuter *quodquod could be unattested

- 22:33, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

TL;DR. - -sche (discuss) 19:45, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
In short it is verification request for certain forms (see "For the feminine quaequam and the plural" and "RFV for [...]"). For the verification procress everything else such as references and citations can be ignored.
Discussions could then arise, if citations are found: Are the citations correct, or doubtful, from old editions or the like? Do the citations contain a selfstanding pronoun or what in English is also termed adjective (as in demonstrative adjective, indefinite adjective) or determiner (as in demonstrative determiner)? Additional problems do arise because of this BP proposal. Treating Old Latin and other Latin as different languages means that Plautus (as in quisquam#Citations, mecum#Adverb, illic#Pronoun) doesn't attest anything for the other Latin. - 10:39, 25 January 2018 (UTC)


This entry was not created yet, but maybe it should, if we can find a few citations for it.

Searching citations for symbols is inherently hard, but apparently this is a very common symbol so maybe there's some hope. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 22:00, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

This is what I've understood the CFI clause about "in common use" to refer to. Words that are hard to cite, but everyone is familiar with. I know the more common consensus is that it just refers to words that are easily citable, but I kind of wish that wasn't the case, as it keeps out a lot of informal language. Andrew Sheedy (talk) 23:00, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
I'm one of the people that understand the CFI clause about "in common use" as "words that are easily citable in three independent durably-archived sources". As you said, I know I'm not the only one who thinks that way. But, naturally, feel free to disagree with me on the interpretation of the rule if you want. If the consensus about the "in common use" rule is unclear, it probably should be discussed further, eventually. Apparently, that rule was never even voted in the first place.
I believe probably all emojis fail that criterion, the way I see it. I oppose creating entries for emojis on the basis of the "in common use" rule without the need for citations.
Here are two existing emoji entries, with one citation each: 😀 and 😉.
Apparently, emojis are "internet slang". They may be used a lot on the internet, but if we created entries for some or all emoji just because they presumably exist online, without the need to check for attestation, then on the same basis we would have a precedent for creating entries for some or all internet abbreviations and informal internet speech with the same lack of standards. For a list of these items, see Appendix:English internet slang and Appendix:Portuguese internet slang. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 05:27, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
Daniel Carrero -- I kind of wonder why you're even bothering to ask this, since your similar request on ⚤ eight months ago turned up plenty of information, but somehow none of it was acceptable to you... AnonMoos (talk) 10:03, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
What do you mean, plenty of information? In the discussion about ⚤, you just linked to one Wikimedia Commons category and one Wikipedia article, and I linked to a non-durably-archived SMBC comic, right? As I pointed out in that discussion, just linking to other Wikimedia projects doesn't count, and the article had three sources which, apart from being on the internet and thus being non-durably-archived too, are mentions (lists of symbols and their meanings) instead of actual uses.
By contrast, and have a number of CFI-compliant citations for certain senses.
I intend to create a few more RFVs for symbols at some point, not only to see if they are actually attestable, but also to see to what extent our current CFI rules work for them.
I'm not saying I personally agree with all our current CFI rules (I agree with some rules, others I would rather propose to be changed). This is not simply a matter of I, personally, considering some information acceptable or not. Even if I really wanted to say "RFV passed, the symbol already appears in some internet lists!", that is not proper procedure to close an RFV.
Actually, I'd rather propose a few changes to our CFI rules to relax our criteria for symbol entries. But that's a matter for the BP. (I created this RFV as a result of this ongoing BP discussion: link) Also, hopefully past and future RFV results can be used as a precedent to be discussed there too, to revise the rules if needed.
For now, my question is naturally whether 😊 passes CFI under our current rules. That is an important question, whether the answer is yes or no. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 10:37, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
Is the RFV still in progress? 😊 does exist and has no RFV tag. Category:Emoticons block and Category:Miscellaneous Symbols block have more emoticons and symbols which would be hard to cite. As an example, could be attested by commons? - 10:00, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

Some Latin adjectives[edit]

RFV for the ablative singular and the genitive plural or neuter nominative, accusative or vocative plural to determine the declension of some adjectives (abl. sg. -ī or -e, gen. pl. -ium or -um, neuter pl. -ia or -a).

  • It could be that the declensions is unknown or that wt's declension is wrong. Well, in Medieval or New Latin some more forms could be attested, but then there should be a note and then it could be that there are multiple forms.
  • Just BTW as defence in advance: Knowing how wiktionary creates inflected forms, and seeing what grammarians write or grammars state, it's justified to question multiple entries with doubtful inflected forms.


  • Allen & Greenough's New Latin Grammar for schools and colleges founded on comparative grammar, 1903, p. 53f.:
    "121. [...] a. The Ablative Singular commonly ends in -ī, but sometimes -e. [...] The following have regularly -e:—caeles, compos, [†dēses], dīves, hospes, particeps, pauper, prīnceps, sōspes, superstes. [...]"
    b. The Genitive Plural ends commonly in -ium, but has -um in the following:1
    1. Always in compos, dīves, inops, particeps, prīnceps, supplex, and compounds of nouns which have -um: as, quadru-pēs, bi-color.
    2. Sometimes, in poetry, in participles in -ns: as, silentum concilium, a council of the silent shades (Aen. vi. 432). [...] d. Vetus (gen. -ĕris) and pūbes (gen. -ĕris) regularly have -e in the ablative singular, -a in the nominative and accusative plural, and -um in the genitive plural. For ūber, see § 119 [note: there is ūber, abl. sg. ūberī, gen. pl. ūberum, neuter plural ūbera, and the note "An ablative in -e is very rare."; but there is also vetus with abl. sg. "vetere (-ī)"]. [...]
    122. The following special points require notice:—[...] d. Many adjectives, from their signification, can be used only in the masculine and feminine. [...] Such are adulēscēns, youthful; [†dēses], -idis, slothful; inops, -opis, poor; sōspes, -itis, safe. [...]
    1 Forms in -um sometimes occur in a few others."
    • Stating that sōstes has abl. sg. -e, but not stating that it has gen. pl. -um could mean that the gen. pl. is -ium or unattested. If it is -ium, there could be more declensions than just abl. sg. -ī, gen. pl. -ium (like i-stem substantives) and abl. sg. -e, gen. pl. -um (like consonant-stem substantives) and abl. sg. -e or -ī, gen. pl. -ium (poetically sometimes -um) (participles, with forms depending on the way of usage). In fact, with ūber, abl. sg. -ī (very rare -e), gen. pl. -um, neuter plural -a A&G have another declension form.
  • 21st century grammars (Pons, Klett, Duden and others) mention the following adjectives with abl. -e and gen. pl. -um: vetus, dīves, pauper, prīnceps, compos, superstes, sōspes, particeps, although many grammars just mention a few of them.
  • William Smith & Theophilus D. Hall, The student's Latin grammar. A grammar of the Latin language, 2nd edition, London, 1867, p. 18 had this: "The following Adjectives have [Ablative Singular in] ĕ only: paupĕr, pūbēs, dēsĕs, compŏs, impŏs, caelebs, princeps and sŭperstĕs."
  • Just BTW: An 18th century grammar noted that several adjectives, such as "ales, bipes, bicolor, cicur, compos, concolor, degener, deses, dives, impos, inops, immemor, memor, locuples, paper, particeps, praeceps, redux, superstes, sospes, teres, anceps, biceps, triceps &c." don't have a neuter nominative, accusative or vocative plural, which would mean that e.g. *sospitia or *sospita is unattested (or was so centuries ago, or at least was uncommon or proscribed). An 19th century grammar mentioned something similar; namely that some adjectives such as "vigil, memor, compos, impos, pauper, dives, sospes, superstes, redux, supplex, particeps, princeps" are often used of persons, thus are often used in masculine and feminine gender, although they are sometimes also with neuters, but it's avoided to use them in the neuter plural cases in -a; for example one can say numen nemor, but not numina memora. So it could be more complicated to attest or verify the correct declension of caelebs or sospes for example.

- 07:16, 19 April 2017 (UTC)


See A&G cited above, and compare with superstes.


See A&G cited above.
Georges: "particeps, cipis, Abl. cipe"


See A&G cited above, and compare with particeps.


See A&G cited above.


See A&G cited above.
L&S mentions this example: "sub caelite mensa, Paul. Nol. Carm. 24, 9 al.", though it is Late Latin.
Also RFV for the nominative singular as L&S states "but not found in nom. sing.", as Gaffiot states "(inus. au nominatif)" and as Georges states "Nomin. caeles nicht nachweisbar." (nom. [sg.] caeles not attestable).
BTW: A&G mention defective adjectives too. From the defectives A&G mention, exlex and seminex/semineci here are mentioned without any note, while primoris has one.


Compare: caelebs#Citations
Though it's an poetic example with abl. sg. caelibe (used out of metrical reasons?).
Also: GBS has results with caelibum like "[...] vt inprimis de Collegiis caelibum virginum ita constituatur [...]" (with should be: of the unmarried virgins), but for caelibium there is only one GBS result found thrice (in "[...] quam Senior Augustus post Julius rogationes incitandis caelibium poenis & augendo aerario sanxerat [...]") and that could be something else.


See A&G cited above.
Compare: Talk:pubes#Latin
www.mlat.uzh.ch/MLS/ gives some more results with puberum, and some with pubere and puberi, but none with puberium or puberia or pubera.


Compare with pubes.
Note: Pliny might have impubium but that would be a form of impubis and not of impubes (gen. pl. impuberum or impuberium?)


  • L&S: "rĕdux (rēdux, Plaut. Rud. 4, 2, 4; id. Capt. 5, 1, 2), dŭcis (abl. reduce, Liv. 21, 50: reduci, Ov. H. 6, 1), adj."
  • Lewis: "redux ducis (abl. reduce; poet. also reducī, O.)"
  • Georges: "Abl. Sing. bei Dichtern auch reduci"
This implies that the abl. sg. is usually reduce and poetically (out of metrical reasons?) also reducī. The questioned plural forms however could be unattested (in ancient Latin).


  • See A&G cited above, for gen. pl.
  • L&S: "supplex (subpl-), ĭcis (abl. supplĭci, but also -ĭce freq. in dactyl. and anap. verse [...] As subst.: supplex , ĭcis, m."
  • Lewis: "supplex (subpl-) icis (abl. icī or ice; gen plur. -icum, rarely -icium), adj. [...] As subst m."
  • Georges: "supplex, plicis, Abl. gew. supplice, doch auch supplicī, Genet. Plur. supplicum u. (selten) supplicium"
This could mean that the adjective has both forms. However, this is more complicated as the dictionaries maybe don't properly differ between the inflection of the adj. and the subst., and it get's more complicated as there is also a noun supplicium.
Gen. pl. supplicum for the subst. should be attested (Cic. Mur. 4, 9: "repudiatio supplicum"). supplice and supplici for the adj. should be attested too (see supplex). Though as for now, supplice could be a poetic form (out of metrical reasons?). How about the gen. pl. or neuter pl. of the adj.?


For the doubtful plural forms.
  • A&G has abl. sg. -ī, "very rare" -e, gen. pl. -um, neuter pl. -a
  • Dictionaries have abl. sg. -ī and one reference or cite with -e, but often they don't mention the doubftul plural forms.
  • Note that there is a also a noun uber which also has gen. sg. uberis, so just attesting the word forms uberum or ubera, doesn't mean anything.


@Atitarev, Cinemantique, Wikitiki89, Wanjuscha, KoreanQuoter Another creation by User:D1gggg. Is this real? If so, can this entry be fixed up? Thanks. Benwing2 (talk) 18:03, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

It's vertical lines, not slashes and more hyphens. I doubt I've seen it in print, it's usually handwritten.--Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 22:08, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
I generally agree with Anatoli that it is much more common in handwriting. However, I believe I have seen it reproduced with a typewriter (!) in the form -"-. — SMUconlaw (talk) 12:22, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
I guess there are various ways to write this: --!!--, ==||==, --//--, ==="===. Not sure how to go about this RFV. I don't care either way, to be honest, whether it is kept or deleted. This set of symbols seems similar to the way character substitution works, you can use *** or ####, any number of them, with no particular rules. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 12:45, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
I am leaning towards delete. I suppose this nomination is different from the one archived at "Talk:---" because that discussion was about line patterns that were not regarded as language, whereas in this case we are talking about a symbol that represents the word ditto. However, I think the fact that there is no consistent way of representing this symbol in print (unlike, for example, the @ symbol) means that it may not be verifiable. — SMUconlaw (talk) 15:39, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
I assumed this was translingual; in any case, it is quite common in Danish, although I've only seen it in handwriting. As Atitarev says, the lines are vertical, nor slanted. When I see it, it is written just below what it replicates, as in
The cat has a velocity of 3 m/s.
The dog ------||--------  5 m/s.

where the length of the (solid, not dashed) horizontal lines are appropriately adjusted. I have never heard anyone regard this as nonstandard.__Gamren (talk) 12:45, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

I don't know about Russian but in German something like " should be attestable. But I can't think of any good way to search for it on Google. Maybe one could attest Unterführungszeichen (compare de:w:Unterführungszeichen) and find reference works, and then claim that " is in "clearly widespread use" (WT:CFI). Maybe the same can be done for Russian?
" and do already exist and are Translingual. Maybe Russian uses one of these? - 23:10, 21 May 2017 (UTC)
Here (14:40) is an example of what I was talking about that I happened to stumble upon (searching for it is obviously impractical).__Gamren (talk) 15:17, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
I've made Unsupported titles/Hyphen vertical line vertical line hyphen.__Gamren (talk) 16:15, 31 March 2018 (UTC)


Rfv-sense ばかFumikotalk 09:31, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

Looks to me like a mistake, if Japanese people follow the western custom and refer to a ship as "kanojo", that would be pronoun sense #1. Siuenti (talk) 00:31, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
彼女 is used in this sense in Japanese. Japanese also has the expression, 処女航海 (maiden voyage). See http://www.warbirds.jp/kakuki/kyosaku/19kan/idacho.htm where you will find "彼女の処女航海". See also, http://whalingmuseum-arcticvisions.org/captain-john-bartlett-of-the-panther/?lang=ja . I also agree that this sense should be listed under Pronoun. 馬太阿房 (talk) 19:26, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
Apparently that website looks made from machine-translation. Japanese custom don't treat ship as female.--荒巻モロゾフ (talk) 17:23, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
Move it to the pronoun section and mark it as rare. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 01:34, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
If the sense is real, the definition should also change from "Western custom" to "English custom" (re treating ships as females). English is not the only "Western" language, LOL. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 22:10, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
Nor is English the only language that does this.__Gamren (talk) 15:45, 22 October 2017 (UTC)


“Used as a specific epithet in the taxonomic names of plants to mean ‘having five leaves’.” — Latin or Translingual? — I.S.M.E.T.A. 22:34, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

It exist translingually in taxonomic names like "Botryosicyos pentaphyllus", "Hibiscus pentaphyllus", "Phyllanthus pentaphyllus", "Pileus pentaphyllus", "Fragaria pentaphylla", "Manihot pentaphylla".
In Fragmenta phytographiae australiae, contulit Ferdinandus Mueller. Vol. II. (Melborne, 1860-1861, page 13) "Hibiscus pentaphyllus." is the title of a section and the text is in Latin. So one could argue that it appears in a Latin text. But as it is in italics and as it is just a section title and no sentence, it could be a mentioning and no usage. Anyway, "Hibiscus pentaphyllus" is a translingual and Translingual* taxonomic term and so is pentaphyllus.
pentaphyllam (fem. acc. sg.) does occur in Latin texts. Often it could be in Latin texts and yet be Translingual taxonomics (unlike English, Latin might decline taxonomic terms in a Latin way). It seems that there are also real Latin non-Translingual usages:
  • Ernsti H. F. Meyer commentariorum de plantis africae australioris [...] Vol. I. Fascic. I, Leipzig, 1835, page 193: "Celeberrimus hujus ordinis conditor coronam stamineam non solum modo monophyllam modo pentaphyllam dixit, sed hoc discrimine quoque in generibus disponendis usus est. [...] Quae discriminis illius ambiguitas nec ipsum Brownium fugisse exinde colligo, quod Xysmalobio suo in conspectu generum coronam pentaphyllam, in generis ipsius charactere monophyllam seu partitam tribuit, et vice cersa Metaplexidi suae coronam hic pentaphyllam, ibi quinquepartitam." "coronam stamineam" could be a species name spelled differently than in modern taxonomics (w:Corona (gastropod)) or it could be a corona consisting of threads (w:Perianth). By the spelling it could be that genera are spelled with a capital letter, so corona could be a normal noun and pentaphyllus could be a normal adjective.
  • Joannes or Joannis Raius [abl. sg. Joanne Raio], Historia plantarum [...] Tomus primus.", London, 1686, page 468: "Caulis bipedalis est, alis divisus, rotundus, striatus ut angulosis videatur, asper albâ hirsutie, umbellas edens, ut in penultima trifidas, sed breviori petiolo & crassiori impositas, basin habentes trifoliam, sed juxta flores pentaphyllam."
But by the version history, it was created as a Translingual entry (on 21 September 2014 someone changed Translingual into Latin), and by the meaning it is about the meaning used in translingual and Translingual taxonomic names ("Used as a specific epithet in the taxonomic names"). So the easiest and safest way would be to change it back into Translingual and maybe add some derived terms (like Botryosicyos pentaphyllus etc.). If a non-Translingual Latin word can undoubtly be attested, it could still be added later.
* translingual and Translingual isn't the same: By attestation some Translingual terms could at the moment be monolingual (e.g. only English), although hypothetically they could be used in other languages as well. pentaphyllus is used in more than one language, so it's used translingually and is Translangual (WT:About Translingual#Accepted: "taxonomic names").
- 13:27, 30 April 2017 (UTC)


RFV for the Latin adjective / Translingual taxonomic epithet. It's defined as “Used as a specific epithet; shining, gleaming.”, but I don't see on what usage that definition is based. The etymology given reads “From Ancient Greek αἴγλη (aíglē, sunlight, gleam), possibly from an Epic Greek genitive and dative form, or possibly via Latin Aegle (any of three mythological figures)”, but that doesn't explain the -fīnus element. Compare Aeglefinus, which I think derives from the French églefin (haddock), which appears to be attested since circa 1300 as the Middle French egreffin. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 22:19, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

I can't find what source I might have used for the etymology. I fear there may not have been one. The derivation that Robert shows for églefin does not include any Greek or Latin. DCDuring (talk) 22:32, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
The meaning is likely based on the presumed etymology, and the "usage" likely is the one in taxonomic names.
  • David H. McNicoll, Dictionary of Natural History Terms with their derivations, including the various orders, genera, and species, London, 1863, page 9 gives this etymology: "Ægle'finus (Ichth.) αἰγλοφανής [aiglophanḗs], brilliant, lustrous". It contains a change of ο to e and of a to e - and the only explanation for that that I can think of is English mispronunciation or French or English deformation. Alternatively, the given etymology could be incorrect.
  • Dictionaries and other books mention French aiglefin, aigrefin, églefin (by Frenchies) or eglefin (by non-Frenchies or in caps as EGLEFIN) and English eglefinus as names for haddock. The origin is once said to be Dutch (14th century, so likely Middle Dutch) eschlevis which is said to literally mean shell-fish (from Why is an Apple a Pomme? A Journey with Words by Denis Dunstone, 2014, e-books version at books.google, which also mentions Spanish eglefino, Portuguese eglefim, Italian eglefino). A German book mentioned a Dutch schelvis (which looks more like Schellfisch) and says there was a "Umbildung". In another context a French aigle fin with the meaning "clever person" (schlauer Mensch) and the literal meaning "fine eagle" (feiner Adler) was mentioned.
    So maybe the etymology is like this: some Dutch word, likely for the haddock -> French aiglefin, aigrefin, églefin (French caps, maybe in older typography, EGLEFIN), maybe by folketymological deforming of the Dutch to resemble aigle fin and then maybe to deform it as it's no eagle (aigle) -> maybe English or some other European language -> Translingual aeglefinus. Maybe one can find more and better references for this.
BTW: The long e (Wiktionary: "aeglēfīnus") is likely from one of the two presumed etymologies. So if the etymology is a guess, the length likely is too, and if it is a guess, then it shouldn't be "aeglēfīnus" without any note.
BTW 2: By connecting aeglefinus with the French noun aiglefin, aigrefin, églefin, aeglefinus could be a noun too (in taxonomics used in apposition), so it's almost like an alternative form of Aeglefinus except that modern taxonomic uses capitalisation in a special way.
- 23:39, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
In the sense "haddock", it's obviously from the French or some close relative thereof and is a noun. The waspfish, however, is in a different order, so aeglefinus may be an adjective in Neocentropogon aeglefinus. If so, it should be listed as two etymologies. PierreAbbat (talk) 21:45, 18 April 2018 (UTC)


Shinjitai form of 謳歌. —suzukaze (tc) 03:29, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

Character 𧦅 is part of Extended shinjitai, "unofficial characters". --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 01:45, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

May 2017[edit]


Tagged but not listed. - -sche (discuss) 17:24, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

L&S: "Perh. a kind of collar for the neck, Non. p. 200, 16 (Trag. Rel. v. 302 Rib.)." Maybe that's the source for it, and maybe in another dictionary it's without the "Perh.", or maybe it's coming from L&S but with ignoring the "Perh." which should abbreviate "Perhaps". - 21:55, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
"Perh." means perhaps in L&S.
  • L&S: "Perh. [= perhaps] a kind of collar for the neck, Non. p. 200, 16 (Trag. Rel. v. 302 Rib.)."
  • L w/o S: "a curb, used as an instrument of torture: civīs tradere camo, H. dub. [= doubtful]"
  • Gaffiot: "carcan : *Acc. Tr. 302."
  • Georges: "Strafwerkzeug für Sklaven u. Verbrecher, Acc. tr. 302. Hor. sat. 1, 6, 39."
Based on this it should rather be a yoke (frame around the neck) than a necklace (jewelry worn around the neck).
As for Horatius, it does depend on the edition and camo could be less common than Cadmo.
The works mentioned by the dictionaries:
  • Nonius Marcellus, De compendiosa doctrina, page 200, line 16f. In: Noni Marcelli compendiosa doctrina. Emendavit et adnotavit Lucianus Mueller. Pars I, Leipzig, 1888, p. 295f.:
    Collus masculino Accius Epigonis:
    quid césso ire ad eam? em, praésto est camo† collúm gravem.
    16 Epigonis Me; epigono C. – 17 equidem illud camo idem quod κάμπτω olim putaveram. sed ne sic quidem sententia satis facilis et commoda. vulgo ita explicatur, ut camus sit κημός, et significet, quod exemplo caret, vinculum collare. propius a vero existimo catellae (cf. pg. 199 l. catellae) vocabulum latere et hausta quaedam, quibus octon. iamb. impleretur, ut puta: quid césso ire ad eam? eam praéstost. et catélla (ablat.) habet collúm gravem. nam interdum in hoc metro caesuram neglegi notum. illa quin de Eriphyla dicta esse videantur non intercedo. at pessime puto factum, quod Epigonos Accii eandem cum Eriphyla habuit fabulam Ribbeckius duasque res diversissimas Thebarum expugnationem et Eriphylae caedem una tragoedia contineri existimavit.
  • Nonius Marcellus, De compendiosa doctrina, page 200, line 16f. In: Nonii Marcelli de conpendiosa doctrina libros XX onionsianis copiis usus edidit Wallace M. Lindsay. Volumen I. LL. I–III, argumentum, indicem siglorum et praefationem continens, Leipzig, 1903, p. 294:
    Collus masculino Accius Epigonis (302):
    . quid cesso ire ád eam? em, praesto ést: camo collúm gravem.
    16 epigono (etiam F3)
  • Otto Ribbeck, Tragicorum latinorum reliquiae, Leipzig, 1852, p. 148 (L. Attius [= Lucius Accius], Epigoni, XIII (9), verse 302):
    Iám quid cesso ire ád eam? en praesto est: én camo collúm grauem!
    302 iam om. libri   em praesto est camo libri hem praesto est: camo en Vossius hem praesto est: en camo Grotius Bibl. crit. nou. IV
  • Otto Ribbeck, Tragicorum latinorum reliquiae. Secundis curis. Volumen I., Leipzig, 1871, p. LV and p. 176 (L. Attius, Epigoni, XIII (9), verse 302) (similary at wikisource):
    [p. VII and IX]  PRAEFATIO
    [...] eis
    quod infra sequitur contexui.
    [p. XLIX]  Attium et debebam et volebam ACCIVM scribere. Nam hoc fuisse poetae nostri nomen fidem facit cum frequentia, immo constantia huius potissimum scripturae in testimoniis, tum Pisaurensium titulorum auctoritas, ubi A c c i i apparent, maximi illa momenti, si probabiliter statuitur Accianum (nam sic apud Hieronymum dicitur) fundum, qui iuxta Pisaurum fuit, a patre poetae colono possessum et filio traditum fuisse. [...]
    [p. LV]  V. 302 violentius Buechelerus eiecto camo ad senarii modos constrinxit:
    quid césso ire ad eam? em praésto est : em (vel iam) collúm grauem.
    [p. 176]  [Séd] quid cesso ire ád eam? em praesto est: cámo [uide] collúm grauem!
    302 sed om. libri   em praesto est, om. uide, libri hem praesto est: camo en Vossius hem praesto est: en camo Grotius Bibl. crit. nou. IV
  • Quintus Horatius Flaccus, Satirae = Sermones, liber I. In: Horace Satires, Epistles and Ars poetica with an English translation by H. Rushton Fairclough, 1942, p. 78f. (similary at wikisource and thelatinlibrary):
    "tune, Syri, Damae aut Dionysi filius, audes
    deicere de saxo civis aut tradere Cadmo?"
    "Do you, the son of a Syrus, a Dama, a Dionysius,d dare to fling from the rocke or to hand over to Cadmus citizens of Rome?"
    d These are common slave-names.
    e i.e. the Tarpeian rock from which criminals were sometimes thrown by order of a tribune. Cadmus was a public executioner.
- 04:16, 20 May 2017 (UTC)
In an edition with English translation, Attius/Accius' "camo" is interpreted as necklace or neckband. So there are (a) Horatius with the doubtful "camo" (a punishment device) or "Cadmo" (proper noun) and (b) Attius/Accius with the doubtful "camo" (a punishment device or a necklace or neck-band). It's doubtful, but should be cited. - 10:42, 31 May 2017 (UTC)

ad perpetuum and ad perpetuam[edit]

Latin phrases purportedly meaning “everlasting” or “permanent”. I’m most sceptical, however, about the usage note included under ad perpetuum, viz.:

  • The words ad perpetuum or ad perpetuam rei memoriam were normally placed at the end of the salutation on Roman documents to convey the meaning that the documents were trustworthy and permanent.

I didn’t see anything about that in the usual lexicographic places (see perpetuus#References). The phrases in perpetuō (ablative) and in perpetuum (accusative) are well attested (elsewhere), but nowhere do I see mentioned a phrase with ad and any form of perpetuus. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 07:49, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

  • www.zeno.org/Zeno/0/Suche?q=%22ad+perpetuam%22&k=Bibliothek has many mentionings of "ad perpetuam rei memoriam" or "ad perpetuam memoriam". www.zeno.org/Pierer-1857/A/Bulle+%5B1%5D could imply that "ad perpetuam rei memoriam" appears in Medieval documents. As the pope lives in Rome and as it is "Roman Catholic Church" the quoted "Roman documents" could be correct, but vague or misleading. commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Magni_aestimamus.jpg (said to be a bull from 2011 by wikipedia) has "Benedictus Episcopus Servus Servorum Dei ad perpetuam rei memoriam." and commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Detail_of_Quo_Primum_tempore.JPG (said to be a bull) has "Pius Episcopus Servus Servorum Dei ad perpetuam rei memoriam" at the top.
    www.zeno.org/Musik/M/Key%C3%9Fler,+Johann+Georg/Neueste+Reisen+durch+Deutschland,+B%C3%B6hmen,+Ungarn,+die+Schweiz,+Italien+und+Lothringen/Erste+Abtheilung/51.+Schreiben?hl=ad+perpetuum cites a text with "ad perpetuum" in it. Maybe it is a British Medieval or New Latin form of "in perpetuum"? - 19:52, 16 May 2017 (UTC)

deinde scriptum[edit]

RFV for this supposedly idiomatic Latin phrases defined as:

  • "in place of a signature", "the same" (referring to a signature written above on the page, typically following a P.S.)

I haven’t been able to find it in L&S, du Cange, Elementary Lewis, Niermeyer, or the OLD. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 14:29, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

It could be NL and not CL, so it would be missing in L&S and OLD. w:de:Liste lateinischer Abkürzungen, w:de:DS and w:de:Postskriptum mention it, but that's not a reliable source and could be a German abbreviation. Talk:deinde scriptum gives another etymology, but in English, German, Latin that would be unlikely. - 12:55, 5 May 2017 (UTC)


Sense 1: "False plane tree".
By the version history I get the impression that probably there is just the second sense and this first sense is a misplaced literal translation.
In Latin Acer pseudoplatanum and Acer Pseudoplatanum (the latter in Carolus Linnaeus') do exist, but that would have the 2nd sense in it.

  • If sense 1 doesn't exist, this likely better is a Translingual than a Latin entry.
  • In modern non-Latin taxonomics pseudoplatanus could be an adjective as there is Anomalocentra pseudoplatana (in a English taxonomic book from 2002). But well, ATM this might be the only source for the feminine and this taxonomic name.

- 12:55, 5 May 2017 (UTC)


Rfv-sense ばかFumikotalk 12:21, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

It seems to be included as such in CC-CEDICT (not that it means much for our purposes). Taiwan's Ministry of Education dictionary seems to describe something more specific. —suzukaze (tc) 22:31, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
(google:"青鮫的" has a really feeble amount of hits...) —suzukaze (tc) 22:37, 12 May 2017 (UTC)


For the doubtful feminine forms heptaphyllus, heptaphylli, heptaphyllo etc.
BTW 1: In Translingual taxonomics the feminine is the more logical "heptaphylla".
BTW 2: this is the only Latin adjective ending in -us and using "la-adecl-2nd" besides the doubtful chrysocarpus. - 12:28, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

Design by contract[edit]

For the spelling, the gender and the inflection.
"Design by Contract" with neuter gender and genitive "Design by Contract" are attestable, but that's not "Design by contract" with masculine gender and strange genitive "Design by contracts".
IMO it could simply be moved and changed... - 12:28, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

  • It's not a proper noun either. ---> Tooironic (talk) 02:57, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
    • The source for "Design by contract" could be de:w:Design by contract, but German Wiki uses "Design by contract", "Design by Contract" and "Design By Contract". The masculine gender could come from the given German translation in "Design by contract (kurz DbC, englisch für Entwurf gemäß Vertrag)" as Entwurf is masculine. But Design is neuter. The strange genitive "Design by contracts" could come from en.Wikt's template.
      German Design by Contract n does now exist (which also means that Design by contract can't be moved anymore to the correct place...). - 11:14, 22 May 2017 (UTC)


Rfv-sense "a doctor's degree in optometry". Seems to me like it's probably just English, or possibly Translingual, but I suppose it could be New Latin. Andrew Sheedy (talk) 22:49, 16 May 2017 (UTC)

In Latin it could abbreviate a New Latin *"optometriae doctor". But for the full form, I only saw a few mentionings or non-Latin usages like English "[...] give the degree of O.D.--Optometriae Doctor, or Doctor of Optometry." The degree could be from the 20th century, hence it's more likely that it's not Latin but just English or at best Translingual. - 23:54, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
The RFV reasoning might also apply to the sense "oculus dexter, the right eye" (Eng OD, OS, OU do exists and were added in diff), and to the sense "the organ of sight; the eye"? For what should OD in that sense even stand? Added RFV-sense at least for "the organ of sight; the eye". - 22:00, 18 December 2018 (UTC)
RFV failed for the degree sense.__Gamren (talk) 23:29, 26 December 2018 (UTC)
Note that an anon sense-RFV'd the "organ of sight" sense as well; that one remains to be solved before archiving. — Mnemosientje (t · c) 15:38, 8 February 2019 (UTC)


An initialism for a German noun that we haven't got. Nothing obvious on a quick Google search. SemperBlotto (talk) 10:48, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

There is a [wiki article] on that subject. 17:08, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
Rückscheinbrief does now exist. According to w:en:Rückscheinbrief it's an Austrian-German thing. wp's "RSa-Brief (Rückscheinbrief a [...])" and "RSb-Brief (Rückscheinbrief b)" imply that RSb does not stand for "Rückscheinbrief" but for "Rückscheinbrief b", or something similar as "RSb-Brief" ~ "Rückschreinbrief-b-Brief" would be stupid (though not impossible as "HIV virus" = "human immunodeficiency virus virus" shows). [2] has "RSa   Rückschein a    RSb   Rückschein b", similar [3]/[4]. "Rückschein-a-Brief" makes sense.


Rfv-sense: Torrent file. A torrent file is normally called a 種子文件 or 種子檔案. Is 種子 used for the file, or is it just a seed, just like in English (BTW, missing sense?)? — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 15:05, 31 May 2017 (UTC)

Can verify- I think it is a pretty common usage. GB 下載 種子 returns sufficient results. Wyang (talk) 07:37, 1 June 2017 (UTC)
@Wyang: This book defines 種子 as "提供下載的用戶", which is similar to the definition of seed ("a machine possessing some part of the data") from the Glossary of BitTorrent terms. Is this a different sense? — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 19:33, 1 June 2017 (UTC)
That's a different sense, and should be placed above the "torrent file" sense, which is an extension of it. Wyang (talk) 21:21, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

June 2017[edit]


RFV Spanish etymology - bandol doesn't appear to be a Spanish word. -WF

This was in the time of Old Spanish (1500s), which I am not an expert in. I think bandol was an Old Catalan word (modern bàndol), which includes the Catalan diminutive suffix -ol (Modern Spanish -uelo). That in turn from Old Spanish bando. I would change the etymology to something like this:
From earlier form bandollier, from Middle French bandoulliere, from Old French bandouliere, from Old Spanish bandolera, bandolero "guerrilla", from Catalan bandolera (feminine derivative of bandoler, “member of a band of men”), from bàndol "faction, party" (diminutive suffix -ol), from Old Spanish bando (faction, party). —Stephen (Talk) 02:12, 15 June 2017 (UTC)


Rfv-sense: hoisin sauce. A quick Google search shows that it's absolutely not hoisin sauce. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 00:31, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

It seems to be some sort of seafood sauce used in Western cuisine. In this menu, it is translated as crustacean sauce (salsa di crostacei). I did find some uses meaning hoisin sauce, like this (English version) and this. I'm just unsure if these uses are influenced by Wiktionary and/or sites that use Wiktionary info. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 03:56, 11 June 2017 (UTC)
@Tooironic, Atitarev, Wyang, any input? — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 06:04, 10 August 2017 (UTC)
I think it can refer to hoisin sauce or any sauce made from 海鮮, but it's a bit awkward (and pretentious)-sounding in Mandarin. I have never used or heard this term before. Wyang (talk) 07:36, 10 August 2017 (UTC)


AFAIK, we mostly use ดรัมเมเยอร์ for drum major. --Octahedron80 (talk) 04:52, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

"คทากร" is in wide use, as in "จุฬาฯ คทากร"; see further results from Google also. --หมวดซาโต้ (talk) 05:28, 21 July 2017 (UTC)
@Octahedron80, do you agree with that assertion? @หมวดซาโต้, could you add citations to the page?__Gamren (talk) 23:38, 26 December 2018 (UTC)

July 2017[edit]

The Slavic Latin contributions of[edit]

All of the contributions of this anon seem pretty shady to me, or at least under wrong title. @Metaknowledge, could you take a gander? —JohnC5

Also everything under Special:Contributions/ —JohnC5 04:57, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
These all seem to be medieval Latin renderings of Serbo-Croatian names, and particularly of medieval Croatian/Pannonian rulers. Many of them could definitely be attested (at least from quotes in secondary sources), but some are plainly erroneous (“Muucimir” is just a misreading of Muncimir). — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 07:57, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
Affected Latin entries:
Additionally all these entries might miss a label like {{lb|la|Medieval Latin}}, {{lb|la|New Latin}} or {{lb|la|Medieval Latin|New Latin}}.
As headers and inflection do not fit:
  • The names ending in -o could be nominatives or be inflected forms, e.g. Budimero as nominative or as dative/ablative of Budimerus (gen. Budimeri) or maybe of Budimer (gen. Budimeri).
  • Names ending with mer or mir could have any of the following declensions: a) indeclinable, b) 3rd declension wih gen in -is, c) 2nd declension with gen. in -i and maybe with dropping of e in mer or i in mir similar to e.g. Maeander, gen. Maeandri.
As for vowel length as inflection templates add macra on the ending:
dunno. Maybe after comparing Slave names lengths can be assumed. But before comparison is done, it could be better to give everything without macra.
As for specific names:
  • Muntimerus (Muncimirus) does exist. Muncimir could barely exist (there appears to be a document from 892 (DCCCXCII) containing this name, and two other usages which might relate to that document). Muntimer might be wrong (correct inflection table, but entry and head missing -us). Muntimirus, Muncimerus could exist too, but that's another thing.
    By the way: Muntimerus was created by who added a few more Slave names in -us.
  • Budimerus does exist. Created entry Budimero probably just is the dative/ablative of it. Budimer in the inflection section might be wrong.
  • Terpimerus could barely exist (the gen. Terpimeri can be found). Tripimirus might be inexistent.
- 12:07, 2 February 2018 (UTC)


Japanese given name. —suzukaze (tc) 01:57, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

google:"実見子さん" produces more hits than 実見子の. Not many, but a few more. FWIW. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 23:14, 14 September 2017 (UTC)


Dialect word, barely used nowadays. ганарэя is common. Comes from dictionaries from 1995 [5] and 2001 [6], but I think that it is not widespread. --Jarash (talk) 12:38, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

It doesn't need to be widespread, and it doesn't matter if it's dialect, but Belarusian is a WT:WDL, so it does need three uses (not dictionary mentions) from different authors over the space of more than a year. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 12:49, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
User:Per utramque cavernam in this edit stated that RfV can be removed and in the description to this edit he provides a link to search on slounik.org with three hits. The first search hit is a dictionary from 1995 by editors С.Прыхожы, А.Стасевіч, А.Юркін, А.Сітнік, І.Каваленка (S. Prykhozhy, A. Stasevich, A. Yurkin, A. Sitnik and I. Kavalenka). The second and third search hits are Russian-to-Belarusian and Belarusian-to-Russian dictionaries from 2001 by the same editor Віктар Варанец (English: Victor Varanets). This makes the total count of independent sources only to 2. --Jarash (talk) 12:34, 14 April 2018 (UTC)
It was a mistake of me to say that. As Mahagaja said above, dictionary mentions aren't enough; we need three real cites. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 12:55, 14 April 2018 (UTC)


Spanish. Or Portuguese? -WF

Our translations-section under adjective says that "adjectivo" is used in Portugal and "adjetivo" in Brazil. Spanish section looks more dubious. I could not find evidence of "adjectivo" meaning "procedural" in Spanish. Instead, a search for "regulaciones adjetivas" gives more than 300 hits. However, we don't have this sense listed under the Spanish entry for "adjetivo". --Hekaheka (talk) 01:16, 3 August 2017 (UTC)
The Portuguese entry is perfectly clear; "adjetivo" is now the proper term, and the historical explanation is spot-on. --Luisftd (talk) 21:54, 30 August 2017 (UTC)
Delete Spanish legal sense. Ultimateria (talk) 20:01, 7 October 2018 (UTC)
@OP: It was an RFV for Spanish (NadandoBot moved the tag to a worse place...)
@Ultimateria: This is RFV, not RFD. The only reason why "delete" would be ok, is the age of this thread - properly, it would already be RFV failed...
@Thread: How about a Spanish grammatical term? Cf.: [7] ("nombres adjectivos"; from 1876, though original might be from 16-18th century), [8] ("adjectivo" - elsewhere also "adjetivo"; 1799), [9] ("nombre adjectivo" - elsewhere also "adjetivo"; 1789), [10] (elsewhere also adjetivo; 1862 - originally from 18th century?), [11] (also once "el Nombre adje- [linebreak] tivo"; 1818 - originally older?), [12] (1750). [13] (1747) has "nombre adiectio", which might have been more common. -14:56, 9 December 2018 (UTC)


According to De Vaan, this is not attested as an independent verb, but only in compounds. —CodeCat 13:32, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

Also see WT:Tea room/2017/June#Latin clino and Talk:clino. According to that
  • it's attested as adjective/participle - which could attest the verb "via an inflected form"
  • it does appear in old editions - and some other words or forms which appear in old editions are also included in wiktionary like punctus (4th declension, sense point).
Of course both would require a note which ATM is missing. - 04:12, 1 August 2017 (UTC)
Correct, there are a number of attestations:
  1. First, there is 'clinatus', which is clearly attested but is taken to be a lemma in itself by L&S and thus may not be considered enough to attest the verb (see http://perseus.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.2:2692.lewisandshort).
  2. Second, the one mentioned from Lucretius ('clinare') by Dan Polansky over at Talk:clino, which in more recent editions has been replaced with 'inclinare'.
  3. Third, I found a New Latin use of 'clinans', e.g. here.
  4. Fourth, I found uses of 'clinavit' here in older editions of Petronius' Satyricon. Modern editions seem to correct this to 'clamavit'; some seem to also have 'inclinavit'.
That's what I could find in about fifteen minutes worth of searching - although it's quite difficult to look for this on Google Books, since a lot of the "results" are scanno's of the prefixed form or ones that have been separated from their prefix through a line/page break (e.g. "de- clinans"). I think it could possibly even be kept, since these are after all uses in durable sources (though erroneous/nonstandard they may be). It must then be mentioned however that a) in Classical Latin, only the past participle was in use and b) that New Latin uses are rare and nonstandard and are often (thought to be) misreadings of older texts that have been corrected in more recent editions. I'll add a note to that effect now, if someone disputes that this is enough ground to keep the entry we can talk about it some more. — Mnemosientje (t · c) 11:34, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

August 2017[edit]

French demonyms[edit]

User @SemperBlotto has been mass-importing entries from French Wiktionary with, by his own admission, no checking of whether these words are actually verifiable. I decided to check a few of these, and (unsurprisingly) have been unable to verify the vast majority of them, particularly the demonyms for tiny communes, hence bringing them here. Note that these all have entries on fr.wikt, where the criteria for eligibility are far less stringent than ours. The (non-exhaustive) list is as follows; for brevity I have not written here the inflected (feminine/plural) forms, but I have also not been able to verify those so they are inlcuded too:

I've just started with the ones beginning with Y to see how this goes down. BigDom 06:51, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

  • The history of this miniproject is as follows:- I noticed that a new user (Shiro1998 (talkcontribs)) was systematically added the plural forms of French nouns that we did not have (he seemed to be harvesting them from French Wiktionary). I didn't think this was very useful so started to add the missing singulars. While doing this I noticed that our French friends had very many French nouns (and adjectives &c) that we did not have - so started adding them. These included the above demonyms. My thinking went along the lines that, for a language such as French or Italian, we don't have to check the existance of all the conjugated forms of a verb, adjective etc., so I applied the same logic to the regularly-formed demonyms of French placenames. Some of these places are very small and the chances of the demonym appearing in print are slim - maybe in a local newspaper or a parish magazine, though these are unlikely to be archived. I assume that you are not complaining that any of these are actually incorrect, just that we can't prove that they are correct. My gut feeling is to keep them, and add any more that appear on the French Wiktionary or Wikipedia. SemperBlotto (talk) 10:22, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
  • That's pretty much it. I'm not saying these don't exist, but that they aren't used (in durably archived media, at least), which does seem to preclude them from having entries as per our inclusion criteria. I personally think we would be better served tidying up and citing our existing entries than creating unverifiable new ones, but if there's a consensus that such entries are allowed to remain, I'm not going to kick up a fuss. BigDom 10:54, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
These should definitely not be kept if they are not attested sufficiently. You did the right thing.__Gamren (talk) 18:00, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
Delete if not sufficiently attested. – Barytonesis

September 2017[edit]


@Mulder1982 Where did you encounter this?__Gamren (talk) 12:26, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

I don't remember where I got it from originally but to confirm I googled it and found that it is the word for one hundred. A website called LearnGreenlandic even has hundredi as a synonym. Mulder1982 (talk) 13:52, 2 September 2017 (UTC)
Links please? I agree that hundredi exists ([14], [15]), but I cannot find untriti, in its bare form, in the Atuagagdliutit archives, nor in sermitsiaq.ag. Katersat gives untritilik ([16]), but that, I can also not find. However, there are lots of words like untritilinni, untritilippassuarni, untritilikkaat, untritilinnik etc. in the timarit.is archive, so it cannot be complete rubbish. When supplied with some of these words, the Oqaasileriffik word analyser suggests untriteq as root, but that word gives no useful results at all.__Gamren (talk) 18:11, 2 September 2017 (UTC)
Here's one link: untriti I'm trying to find more but I'm having the same "issue" that you do: that seems to be mainly found in compounds. It makes me wonder if it's possibly an from an older batch of loanwords, but this is just me speculating. Mulder1982 (talk) 19:40, 6 September 2017 (UTC)


RFV of the reading of えうま. @Fumiko Takesuzukaze (tc) 02:16, 9 September 2017 (UTC)

Euma and enma are listed in Daijirin as independent entries.

え-うま ヱ― 【絵馬】


え-んま ヱ― 【絵馬】



→えま(絵馬) ばかFumikotalk 08:47, 9 September 2017 (UTC)

What version of Daijirin are you using? I don't see euma at [17] (Daijirin + others) nor [18] (Daijirin 3 + Digital Daijisen + others).
Also, I kind of want to see citations of euma in real life, as per WT:ATTEST. —suzukaze (tc) 08:56, 9 September 2017 (UTC)

October 2017[edit]


Is it really a variant of 急需? Dokurrat (talk) 12:09, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

And the second etymology as well looks... interesting. Can we attest this meaning? ---> Tooironic (talk) 02:17, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
@Dokurrat, Tooironic -- Re: etym 2 for the Chinese term, I find that JA sources agree with the following from Daijirin as the source of the JA term of the same spelling:

(Apparently, originally a container used in China to warm alcoholic beverages, brought to Japan and used as a container for tea)

Perhaps etym 2 for the Chinese is for a term that is now obsolete? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 01:24, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

Okay, for the first etymology, there are usages of this word in the internet. And I believe that to analyse this word orthographically as 急("urgently") + 須("(v.) must; have to") is problematic if this word is followed by a noun, which does happen; It should be analysed phonetically as an alternative form of 急需. So I withdraw the rfv nomination for the first etymology of 急須. Dokurrat (talk) 17:11, 20 February 2018 (UTC)


Rfv-sense: DVD player
Rfv-sense: sieve, colander

Not found in a tiny sample of online Spanish-English dictionaries/translators. - Amgine/ t·e 04:45, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

  • Sieve, colander is found in loads of dictionaries, so I removed the RFV form that. The sense for DVD player is something I couldn't find, but I did find "Pasador De Vhs A Dvd" for a kind of VHS-DVD converter. And added some more meanings while I was at it. I didn't realise Blotto was doing Spanish now. I see no reason why he shouldn't, but there was some minor cleanup to do afterward. --P5Nd2 (talk) 09:54, 17 October 2017 (UTC)


Rfv for senses "(Cantonese) to get wet by rain" and "(Cantonese) to drip" and pronunciation dap6. Dokurrat (talk) 02:25, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

dap6 is used for both these senses. The problem might be whether 溚 is used for dap6. The Representation of Cantonese with Chinese Characters cites Parker Po-fei Huang's Cantonese Dictionary: Cantonese-English, English-Cantonese for this. I also found it in 陈慧英's 广州话的“噉”和“咁”. Also see this discussion. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 15:58, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

November 2017[edit]


Rfv for Cantonese. Dokurrat (talk) 03:33, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

@Dokurrat: The definitions come from the Unihan Database, which got their definitions from "The Representation of Cantonese with Chinese Characters". Here are the sources cited in the article:
  • lan2 (variant of 𨶙): 洪興仔 #21 殺入筲箕灣
  • lang1 (used in 𠮩𠹌/溜𠹌): Hong Kong Judiciary unpublished glossary #4; 粵語書寫問題研究項目
  • lang3 (used in 半𠹌𠼰): Hong Kong Judiciary unpublished glossary #4 (I would pronounce this as lang1.)
  • nang3 (join, link, connect): A Study of Cantonese Words (Zeng Zifan), 粵語書寫問題研究項目
— justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 05:04, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
@Justinrleung: So, If my understanding is right, all pronunciations have passed rfv; sense "variant of 𨶙" has passed rfv. And sense "uncommon, rare" is not verified (yet). Dokurrat (talk) 05:30, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
RFV is generally not used for pronunciations. "Variant of 𨶙" doesn't pass RFV technically; see WT:ATTEST. "Uncommon, rare" is the definition for 𠮩𠹌/溜𠹌; it's not used by itself, so there should be a {{zh-only}}. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 05:34, 2 November 2017 (UTC)


I'm not sure what to do with this. It appears in Norwegian Wiktionary, yet it's not a recognised suffix in the Bokmålsordboka or Nynorskordboka [19]. DonnanZ (talk) 21:19, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

I don't think -verk can be considered a suffix in Norwegian; it rather appears to be the second component in a compound? The fact that "verk" exists as a simplex in the same meaning as the proposed suffix seems to make it a suffixoid at best. Interestingly though, Wiktionary does have an entry for English -work. Morgengave (talk) 21:57, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
Yes -work is a recognised suffix, whereas -works isn't, which is why it's now an RFD. Norwegian Bokmål verk (and Norwegian Nynorsk verk) is a word with two meanings and two genders, and I prefer to list derived terms there. DonnanZ (talk) 09:46, 3 November 2017 (UTC)
The senses given at verk already exist at verk. However, perhaps -verk has one or both of the senses of Danish -værk that DDO gives?
Also, DWDS gives, for German -werk: bezeichnet mehrere zusammengehörende oder gleichartige Gegenstände "denotes several objects that are similar or that belong together", which it calls "not productive".__Gamren (talk) 19:19, 3 November 2017 (UTC)
I just looked up “-værk” in Den Danske Ordbog. That's interesting. I wonder is it's an error of omission by the Norwegian dictionaries, who knows? I quite often find words in the DDO which don't appear in the Norwegian ones, yet they are definitely used in Norwegian. DonnanZ (talk) 19:41, 3 November 2017 (UTC)


google books:"繃床" -"棕绷床" -"棕繃床" yields very few results. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 03:12, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

There are 84,000 hits on Baidu for simplified 绷床. ---> Tooironic (talk) 07:44, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
I think we should mark it as a misspelling of 蹦床. The latter is found in the basic dictionaries, such as 《现代汉语规范词典》, 《汉语大词典》, 《汉语大辞典》, 《现代汉语词典》, etc., and agrees with the colloquial synonym 蹦蹦床 (bèngbèngchuáng), whereas I can't find this in any Chinese-Chinese or reliable Chinese-English dictionary. Wyang (talk) 08:00, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
@Tooironic: Have you checked the searching results of 绷床 in Baidu? It seems to me that many of them are not used in sense trampoline. Dokurrat (talk) 10:12, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
Yes, some refer to trampoline, others seem to be referring to a type of bed. Not sure about this one. ---> Tooironic (talk) 07:10, 9 November 2017 (UTC)




Both created by the same user. Caucă is mentioned in DEX as a variant of cauc: 1) a type of headwear used mainly by monks (from Turkish kavuk); or, 2) (archaic and regional) a wooden cup (from Latin *cau < cavus). Nowhere is the sense of "skull" mentioned. Scaucă is found only once on a nationalistic site trying to link the word scoică (< Slavic), through a regional form scaucă, to Dacian. --Robbie SWE (talk) 18:35, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

Somewhat delayed discovery, but scălan is also incorrectly defined. I'm starting to smell the nationalistic linguistics oozing from these entries. Am I wrong @Redboywild, @Word dewd544? --Robbie SWE (talk) 20:04, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

You're not wrong. I'm not even familiar with some of these to be honest. Word dewd544 (talk) 03:39, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
scaucă is definitely not citable. The other two get a few hits on Google Books, but I'm not sure if the definitions are correct. The etymologies are pretty fishy too, only mentioning PIE and Albanian. The words seem legitimate, but they're a bit too rare to be included by our standards. (To be fair, there are some other archaic/regional words on Wiktionary that don't seem citable, for example vierșun.) Redboywild (talk) 17:38, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
That's what I suspected. I'll take a look and see what I can do to correct the definitions that exist. I'm considering deleting scaucă, though. --Robbie SWE (talk) 19:26, 14 November 2017 (UTC)



-- Dokurrat (talk) 19:07, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

, , , , , , , , , , , [edit]

Chinese section. -- Dokurrat (talk) 10:18, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

I am who added these symbols. Have you ever seen them in Chinese newspapers? I have. They also used in some publishings. --Octahedron80 (talk) 03:25, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
@Octahedron80: I'm not sure if the weekday meanings of these symbols are inherent or just a SoP of ring and character. If these meanings have survived Rfv, we may need to add weekday senses to un-ringed characters too, I think. Dokurrat (talk) 22:25, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
Usage of characters in brackets are attested [20][21]--Zcreator (talk) 21:29, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

湯桶読み & 重箱読み[edit]

湯桶読み lists three-kanji compounds, not just two like the definition claims. It's not an ideal source, so please provide with better ones. ばかFumikotalk 13:00, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

  • Daijirin specifically defines these reading patterns as applying to two-character compounds (「漢字二字でできている熟語」 → "compounds formed of two characters"). C.f. Daijirin entry for 湯桶読み, Daijirin entry for 重箱読み. However, Shogakukan adds a note that these labels can be used more broadly for any single compound term (for 重箱読み: 「また、広く、一語の漢字熟語を音訓まぜて読むことにもいう。」 → "Also, broadly, used to describe readings of single-term kanji compounds read with a mixture of on-kun.").
Notably, the example terms with three kanji listed in the JA WP articles for ja:w:湯桶読み and ja:w:重箱読み all appear to be instances of an existing two-kanji compound read with on or kun and either prefixed or suffixed with another term with the opposite reading pattern. Some cases are what I would consider a multi-word term, like 等幅フォント (tōhaba fonto, fixed-width font) or 手榴弾 (te ryūdan, hand grenade), and as multi-word terms, these would not be either 湯桶読み (yutōyomi) or 重箱読み (jūbakoyomi).
(The 等幅 (tōhaba, fixed-width) portion of 等幅フォント (tōhaba fonto, fixed-width font) is itself read with the 重箱読み (jūbakoyomi) pattern, but the entire term 等幅フォント (tōhaba fonto, fixed-width font) cannot be considered as either 湯桶読み (yutōyomi) or 重箱読み (jūbakoyomi) -- especially so given the inclusion of borrowed katakana term フォント (fonto, font), which by very definition cannot be either on or kun).
However, some of the example terms include rendaku, indicating that these three-kanji compounds could be considered as integral words and not multi-word terms, such as 冬景色 (fuyu-geshiki, winter view, winter scene) or 雪化粧 (yuki-geshō, snow covering; to be covered in snow), and as such, the reading patterns for these could be considered as 湯桶読み (yutōyomi) or 重箱読み (jūbakoyomi).
I will rework the 湯桶読み and 重箱読み entries to clarify the definitions and to add usage notes. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 18:39, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
  • First, most sources you frequently cite also make faulty claims, such as a Portuguese term as *Olanda, so I would take them with a huge grain of salt, and if I spoke Japanese, I would seek something, well, more linguistic than some dictionaries that might favor prescriptiveness over descriptiveness, or be outdated and therefore not reflect the true current status of the language (which they do seem like they do and are). Second, the way you divide words into smaller parts seems arbitrary; I've read a romanization guideline that would do very differently based on kanji count, but then with various exceptions. It doesn't help that Japanese doesn't use spaces to separate words, so it's very tricky to determine whether a morpheme is free or bound, whether it should be separated from other parts with spaces or not. I've been following a way that more or less resembles that guideline I've read (based on kanji count), factoring word-medially only processes such as rendaku or renjo. ばかFumikotalk 19:23, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
You asked for better sources than Wikipedia. I provided several widely published monolingual Japanese dictionaries: Shogakukan's Kokugo Dai Jiten, Daijirin, Daijisen, and Shinmeikai.
As you note, these sources sometimes include mistakes. Importantly, mistakes such as the derivation of Japanese オランダ (Oranda, Holland) arise from misunderstandings of non-Japanese languages. These sources are quite solid when it comes to describing the Japanese language itself.
By your own self-description, you don't read Japanese. I'm not sure how you'd be qualified to judge the quality of monolingual Japanese resources.
Regarding romanization and word chunking, you're correct that rendaku and renjō are both important factors to consider. However, in the absence of these, I'm not sure how kanji count would factor into things, unless one is combining a simple count of kanji with an awareness of the underlying vocabulary. Probably most kanji-spelled integral terms are two characters in length. However, some are three characters long (天婦羅 (tenpura, tempura)), and some are only one character long ( (me, eye)). In 手榴弾 (te ryūdan, hand grenade), for instance, it helps to know that (te, hand) is an independent term, and 榴弾 (ryūdan, explosive round, explosive shell) is an independent term, but that *手榴 (*teryū, literally hand + pomegranate) is not a term. With this knowledge, we can tell that this is a compound of (te) and 榴弾 (ryūdan). This compound exhibits no sandhi (rendaku or renjō), the two portions have different reading types, the two portions are also used as independent terms, and the semantics are also clear as the two concepts put together as “hand” + “explosive shell / grenade”. Given all of these factors, it makes sense to render this in romaji with the space as two separate terms.
If you have a link to that romanization guideline, I'd be interested in reading it. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 01:35, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
I agree with Eirikr (except for the romaji part, I think, but I'm not sure how romaji is relevant to this RFV discussion). —suzukaze (tc) 01:53, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

December 2017[edit]


Rfv-sense: condom. Google seems to be giving something else. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 07:17, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

This can refer to condoms, as well as other items/devices. Wyang (talk) 03:43, 15 June 2018 (UTC)


Rfv-sense "(literally) a black-feathered bird". —suzukaze (tc) 03:15, 7 December 2017 (UTC)

FWIW, C.f. Daijisen and Daijirin entries, stating 「羽毛の黒い鳥」/「羽の黒い鳥」. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 05:06, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
Keep. Attested:
  • 烏のようなる黒鳥が — 日本伝承童謡集成, vol. 2, 1974
  • 雪が降る中ヒマラヤ杉に黒鳥が止まり — 横浜市立大学論叢: 人文科学系列, vol. 40, 1989
  • ちょうどそこへ雌の黒鳥が飛んで来た。 — ゲセル・ハーン物語: モンゴル英雄叙事詩, 1993
TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 00:11, 13 September 2018 (UTC)


This passed in 2008 without a single citation being added. Per the entry itself, it seems that jousent is a deliberately nonstandard form of jouent (ils/elles jousent) but that it's from the verb jouer not jouser. Google Books does seem to find two dictionaries that have it, but no uses (and they should be putting it under jouer too). Though there does seem to be an English word jouser, possibly too rare to work out the meaning. 21:55, 7 December 2017 (UTC)


adjective: akimbo —suzukaze (tc) 23:34, 8 December 2017 (UTC)

Seems unlikely. google:"腕がアキンボ" gets one hit. google:"アキンボで" gets 2,070 ostensible hits, collapsing to 97 when paging through. However, the usage seems weird, and the meaning doesn't seem to be what our entry says. For example, one post is talking about a video game glitch, stating 「アキンボで走るときに」 (akinbo de hashiru toki ni, “when running akimbo”). That sounds super weird to me, and makes me think that this アキンボ is not just a borrowing from English akimbo. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 00:34, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
This Yahoo answer pretty much explains it. It is apparently a borrowing from English akimbo, but its usage seems to be limited in the context of FPS games. Searching "アキンボ" on Japanese Wikipedia also confirms this. Nardog (talk) 11:28, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
Thank you, Nardog. The usage does appear to be more along the lines of "with pistols in both hands at the ready", similar to 二丁拳銃 (nichō kenjū, literally “two pistols”). For others here, the Yahoo link above describes how the term appears to be purely a gaming term, and pretty much exclusive to the Call of Duty first-person-shooter game. The poster there theorizes that the term came into vogue because of the game, and from a misunderstanding that "hands on one's hips" was more about gunslingers ready to draw their guns, and from there to having pistols in both hands.
It's clear the アキンボ (akinbo) entry needs reworking. I have other duties keeping me busy today, and possibly for the rest of the week, so I won't be tackling that soon. :) ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 17:37, 12 December 2017 (UTC)


It seems to be only used as a prefix derived from German schwieger-, see sviger- (Bokmål) and sviger- (Nynorsk). DonnanZ (talk) 19:11, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

Sviger isn't listed as a separate word in the DDO either, but looking at “svigerbarn” in Den Danske Ordbog it can be seen that it is effectively a prefix in Danish too. DonnanZ (talk) 19:27, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

I'm certainly not familiar with sviger being used as a stand-alone word in Danish. DDO not listing Danish sviger- is an error of omission; it's still being expanded, and as of the November 10 update they have less than 100 K lemmas (still way ahead of us, though).__Gamren (talk) 19:33, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
@Gamren: Would svigerfamilie be used instead for in-laws? DonnanZ (talk) 10:17, 16 December 2017 (UTC)
Yep. I don't know a word for a single relative by marriage, though, except maybe indgift.__Gamren (talk) 16:13, 16 December 2017 (UTC)
I thought so, svigerfamilie is exactly the same in Norwegian, which is no great surprise. As for indgift, it also seems to mean intermarried (within the same family); that's how I interpret the verb indgifte too. DonnanZ (talk) 19:10, 16 December 2017 (UTC)


"Cantonese: virtuous". —suzukaze (tc) 00:09, 16 December 2017 (UTC)

This character has previously drawn my interest. The definition suggests this character may be - if it fits the attestation criteria - a (very unorthodox) variant of 賢. But I has little resources. Hope someone can investigate into this and figure out what's the story. Dokurrat (talk) 00:48, 16 December 2017 (UTC)
The definition is based on 汉语方言大词典, which cites 木鱼书《蔡伯喈琵琶记》: “蔡公醒后长吁气,叫声~媳好伤心。” I wonder if there are any other 木鱼书 that has this character. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 06:32, 17 December 2017 (UTC)



"home page". —suzukaze (tc) 20:48, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

ホームページ often connotes something different than "home page" as it can mean "web page" or "website", but 主ページ is not such a word. SoP at best, delete both as far as Japanese is concerned. Nardog (talk) 14:21, 19 December 2017 (UTC)



Russian given names. Tagged but not listed. — Ungoliant (falai) 15:03, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

Nominated by User:Recruos. Шахла́ (Šaxlá) spelling is citeable. It's just a transliteration of a name. I suggested the nominator to withdraw RFV. Ша́хля (Šáxlja) is a variant, harder to cite and, IMHO, the stress is wrong but with foreign names, the stress is not well-established. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 05:25, 20 December 2017 (UTC)


Not a French word; always found italicised in historical discourse, as far as I can tell. A few examples: [22], [23], [24], [25], [26]. I'm looking for non-italicised instances. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 21:38, 24 December 2017 (UTC)

@Per utramque cavernam Hmm, do we not count italicized instances? I'm inclined to say we should, for the simple reason that a user might come across the word in a French context and want to know what it means. Sometimes italicization is used like quotes (e.g. "An oriented curve is said to be simple if such and such"), but these authors seem to italicize compulsorily, but otherwise use the word normally (and mostly as part of fixed expressions like ager vectigalis and ager publicus, but that's a different story). Are you worried about extreme duplication?__Gamren (talk) 19:51, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
@Gamren: I don't know; I think italicisation should count for something, but it's not necessarily prohibitive either. User:Sgconlaw has summed up my position pretty well here.
In the present case however, I've no doubt the French section should be deleted; and if non-italicised instances do exist (which remains to be seen), I'm not sure I would even want to count them as valid. The reader is reading a book about ancient Rome; don't you think he'll naturally assume there's some Latin in there? Won't he spontaneously look in a Latin dictionary rather than a French one? Imo, thinking otherwise is treating people like idiots, and it ultimately makes us look like fools. Per utramque cavernam 20:39, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

January 2018[edit]


Tagged but not listed. --Gente como tú (talk) 15:05, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

cordon d'un nouvieau-né[edit]

"umbilical cord" in Norman; literally "cord of a newborn", SOP. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 22:43, 24 December 2017 (UTC)

If it's correct I'd keep it, in the same way as umbilical cord. DonnanZ (talk) 13:30, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
Another thing: if French is anything to go by, this doesn't look/sound natural at all. It just looks like a clumsy neologism. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 18:26, 12 January 2018 (UTC)

Moved from RFD. All I can find is a mention here. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 18:31, 12 January 2018 (UTC)

societe-jersiaise.org ([27], [28]) has it. It's just a mentioning and not durably archived, but could be the source for the entry. More entries and listed terms might be based on similar sources. preunelle dé l'yi from societe-jersiaise.org ([29], [30]) too? Printed dictionaries from societe-jersiaise.org ([31], [32], [33]) might have the terms too and might be durably archived, but still would only be mentionings and no usages. - 13:37, 25 January 2018 (UTC)


If it exists, it it surely an alt-form of -nnaaq. I found two occurrences of ikinngutinnaara "my best friend", one in an Atuagagdliutit article and one in a Jørn Riel poem, but not with the -nnar- form. I also tried searching for "favourite musician/cake/town/country/cocktail", to no avail. What are some other words that people are likely to use in connection herewith?__Gamren (talk) 13:40, 16 January 2018 (UTC)


Rfv-sense: "(slang) cocaine". Can someone vouch for this? --Robbie SWE (talk) 18:29, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

It probably doesn't exist with this sense. It normally means "thing" in slang, but I don't know if that is citable. @Mnemosientje What do you think? ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 11:23, 9 March 2018 (UTC)
Euphemistically it may be used to refer to coke or other drugs but that's definitely not its regular meaning. — Mnemosientje (t · c) 11:37, 9 March 2018 (UTC)


Is this productive? The five examples provided are direct borrowings from Greek, not Latin coinages. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 19:15, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

German terms ending with -thek should be from Latin and Greek or be rather recent creations like Videothek and Spielothek. The entries in Category:French words suffixed with -thèque might be rather recent creations too (though zoothèque might be older). Similary, Latin terms in -theca might be borrowings or be very recent formations difficult to attest as contemporary Latin is a LDL. yle.fi/aihe/artikkeli/2013/05/24/nuntii-latini (Finish Nuntii Latini, not durably archived) doesn't have anything ending in -theca or -thēca. In scientific Latin zootheca ([34] - cp. [35], [36], [37], [38], [39], Oxford Dictionaries: zootheca) can be found. Would this single word be enough to attest a Latin suffix? - 23:42, 14 February 2018 (UTC)
BTW: -isma. - 13:52, 18 April 2018 (UTC)


Rfv-sense "plagiarism". —suzukaze (tc) 00:13, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

It's quite common to see コピペ in reference to a plagiarism that is literally copied from a source, and not uncommon in reference related phenomena such as Rogeting. Example: [40]. Cnilep (talk) 08:07, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

あき as reading of 商[edit]

I know that read as しょう can mean “a business, a seller of goods”, and that the verb 商う (あきなう) means “to deal in, to sell”. But is the character ever read as あき, and does it then mean “the trade of goods”? Cnilep (talk) 07:56, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

There are 商人 (あきんど, あきうど, あきゅうど, あきびと, しょうにん; "merchant") and 商物 (あきもの, "goods"), but that's probably it.[41] In both words the character indeed seems to denote business or trade. Nardog (talk) 08:18, 29 January 2018 (UTC)
@Cnilep -- In 商う (akinau, to do business), the character covers the akina- portion. However, etymologically, the root is aki plus suffix -nau, and the root appears to be what is reflected in these other terms. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 18:42, 29 January 2018 (UTC)


suzukaze (tc) 18:55, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

For context: this is in reference to the w:Grey Cup in Canadian football.
While rare (as Japanese folks tend not to talk much about Canadian football), it's probably citable. C.f. google:"グレーカップ" "フットポール". ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 19:05, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

February 2018[edit]


Seems to be the wrong traditional form of 複審. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 01:26, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

There're many hits in Google Books.--Zcreator (talk) 01:44, 4 February 2018 (UTC)
@Zcreator: True. Do you think there are any differences between 復審 and 複審 in terms of meaning? (In Cantonese, they would be pronounced differently.) — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 06:55, 5 February 2018 (UTC)
That is the correct form, and 複審 is a wrong form, which must be verified ([42], [43]). — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 00:03, 12 June 2018 (UTC)


First etymology. I find nothing about this even in WNT. —Rua (mew) 19:38, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

@Morgengave Do you remember where you found this word? ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 13:14, 26 March 2018 (UTC)
R. Reinsma, Namen op de kaart: oorsprong van geografische namen in Nederland... (2009) mentions it as a "medieval word" found in placenames: "In de naam van de rivier de Merwede zitten de woorden meer (hier in de betekenis 'moerassig water') en wede, een middeleeuws woord voor 'bos' (verwant met woud). De Merwede moet dus lang geleden een kruising van een moeras en een bos zijn geweest, met de nadruk op bos." ("In the name of the river Merwede the words are meer (here in the meaning 'swampy water') and wede, a medieval word for 'forest' (akin to woud). The Merwede must have been a crossing of a swamp and a forest long ago, with the emphasis on forest."
I have not yet found any examples in running text. - -sche (discuss) 17:17, 5 May 2018 (UTC)
I think this can be deleted now. This is the most promising result I found:
  • 1903, Tijdschrift van het Koninklijk Nederlandsch Aardrijkskundig Genootschap, page 181.
    [] de zonnige Zuidhellingen komen hierbij dus niet ter sprake, daar deze gebruikt worden voor nederzettingen, kultuur, weden enz. en het woud op de schaduwzijde gemakkelijker zijne klimatologische grens bereikt.
    (please add an English translation of this quote)
But I'm quite sure that it is a misspelling of weiden. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 09:27, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
The RFV template was removed in diff and the sense was converted to 'in toponyms'. This is OK by me if it's OK with Rua; we do have at least a few other such entries. I'll move it below the still-current senses, though. - -sche (discuss) 23:22, 5 January 2019 (UTC)


@Carl Francis marked this for speedy deletion, claiming that it is not actually Tagalog and not the correct spelling. I see use of this as a Filipino surname, and I'm not sure why @TagaSanPedroAko would be wrong about their native language, so I've brought it here. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 04:29, 20 February 2018 (UTC)


a It's Lumocso, not Lomocso and it's Cebuano. b The guy is just making stuff up as he goes along (see: Licuanan). c The guy is practically claiming every Filipino surname as Tagalog just because it's in forebears.io (see: Alterado, Magdayao and Bayot). He even made up an etymology for Alterado, claiming it's Spanish when his main reference, forebears.io, doesn't even have stats on Alterado in Spain.

@Carl Francis I have been out of WT for weeks, since I left for Canada, but I am pulled in to this thread by the arguments you point. So, let me answer your arguments you are pointing on this issue, since you pinged me in while I am away from WT:
  1. There is really a surname Lomocso (as I see it on one name I found in the news) , and Lumocso would be the main form, not the only correct form. Just mark Lomocso as an alternative form, and nothing else, so we do not inflame this argument.
  2. What do you mean of me creating out stuff? Yes, Licuanan also occur on the Tagalog regions because of migration, and that is not a reason to make it up as it is Tagalog. It is of Chinese origin, not Cebuano, and I have the sources to find their etymology. Don't push the argument they are Cebuano because it is common on its speakers. It is just associated with it, but not always, because there would be many families with that surname outside the Cebuano/Visayan regions, and not all of them would have their ancestors traced back to those.
  3. Claiming every surnames to be Tagalog is because they can be encountered in the Tagalog regions, particularly Metro Manila, and not just for because they are found in the Forebears surname database. I used Forebears for the stats for the surname as an approach I started after I found many Filipino surnames being listed in English already, through admin TheDaveRoss, who added many surnames in English based on 2010 US Census stats for a million surnames collected in the US. But, I now reduced my activity in adding surnames, and concentrated on the Tagalog vocabulary. And you are even claiming several Cebuano surnames of Spanish-language origin taken from the 1849 Catálog alfabético de apellidos to be native Cebuano. Alterado would have derived from Spanish (from a word that is not typically taken as a surname, but become so under the 1849 colonial edict on surnames for Filipinos), but not from Spain. You are free to remove the Tagalog entry of it, until I can prove it also exists in Tagalog. Please drop the argument that I mark every Filipino surname as Tagalog, as I changed my approach there: add only a Tagalog entry of a surname from any Philippine language if I can only prove it has also existed in the Tagalog regions, through migration of people who carried them. "Bayot" and "Magdayao" are, yes, Cebuano in origin, but that is not a reason to have it also in Tagalog.
I know you are a prolific contributor on Cebuano vocabulary, but let this thread be solved properly, without having to give further arguments that may worsen this..-TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 00:22, 22 February 2018 (UTC)


Listed in WWWJDIC (c.f. http://nihongo.monash.edu/cgi-bin/wwwjdic?1MMC%E7%A1%87), but I cannot find any evidence of use in Japanese. The purported Google hits that I looked into at google:"硇は" all appeared to be scannos. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 23:46, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

I can't imagine that a query for "硇は" would bring up anything since it's not a stand-alone word... Daijisen includes 硇砂 (oddly, a search for "硇砂" doesn't bring it up). —suzukaze (tc) 04:07, 1 March 2018 (UTC)
This webpage appears to be a digitalization of an old book that mentions 硇砂. —suzukaze (tc) 04:10, 1 March 2018 (UTC)
Thank you suzukaze. I should have searched for google:"硇" "は" instead.
It appears that this character only shows up in Japanese in the term 硇砂 (dōsha, sal ammoniac, ammonium chloride), which appears to be an obsolete synonym for modern 塩化アンモニウム (enka anmoniumu).
I haven't seen any evidence for the nyō reading listed in WWWJDIC and KANJIDIC (see also https://www.weblio.jp/content/%E7%A1%87). Can anyone tell, is this a dictionary-only reading? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 21:38, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

March 2018[edit]


Is the sense "gay" correct? I have no idea. --Robbie SWE (talk) 18:52, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

A quick Ctrl+F through the first result for google:tokelauan dictionary suggests that it means "glad", "happy", "gay". —suzukaze (tc) 00:43, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
The Irish word for gay in the sense "homosexual" is aerach, which is a semantic loan from English; in other words, they took a word that had the "old" meaning of gay and applied the "new" meaning to it. It's conceivable Tokelauan did that too, but I have no way of knowing that. —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 08:28, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
Judging from how "fiafia" is used in English language contexts, the usual sense is "happy, content, joyful", as noted by Suzukaze. On the other hand it also looks like it is sometimes used as a verb, with some glossing it as "to be happy". If we have nobody who can verify that the part of speech is correct, it seems best for it to go. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 13:42, 6 December 2018 (UTC)


For the particular senses in the entry. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 05:08, 17 March 2018 (UTC)


RFV. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 05:59, 18 March 2018 (UTC)


Only found on Wiktionary. I can confirm this is used, but I don't have reliable sources to prove it, due to its nature being a physically handwritten abbreviation. ばかFumikotalk 03:59, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

This is extremely common... especially in handwritten name lists and notes. I would have taken plenty of pictures to show this usage if I knew this was to be nominated for RFV, but... Wyang (talk) 06:57, 25 March 2018 (UTC)
If there are difficulties in typesetting "g̃", finding cites might be hard.
It's not the same form, but I think this book uses "Ng.": Tên tác giả: Ng. [...]suzukaze (tc) 00:39, 26 March 2018 (UTC)
[...] của NG. VĂN TRUNGsuzukaze (tc) 00:45, 26 March 2018 (UTC)


Only 69 hits on Google, mostly dictionary sites. Robin van der Vliet (talk) (contribs) 21:44, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

April 2018[edit]


As disscussed in Wiktionary:Requests_for_deletion/Non-English#គូត, this gonna be some kind of slang. --Octahedron80 (talk) 02:58, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

Both User:Stephen G. Brown and myself confirmed that this term is in Tuttle Practical Cambodian Dictionary (page 14) but verifying this term seems difficult. Note the dictionary itself is not digitised. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 04:45, 3 April 2018 (UTC)
I wonder if there are other words meaning bottom or relations that we could compare. --Octahedron80 (talk) 05:09, 3 April 2018 (UTC)
ថ្ពាល់គូថ (thpŏəl kuut) (buttocks, backside), គូថ (kuut) (buttocks; excrement), គូធ (kuut) (buttocks; excrement), គូទ (kuut) (buttocks). Why do you ask about words that mean "relations"? There are various words that mean "relations", but nothing to do with "bottom". —Stephen (Talk) 06:26, 3 April 2018 (UTC)
I said if there are other language relations. --Octahedron80 (talk) 06:28, 3 April 2018 (UTC)
I'm not sure what you mean. Besides the above, there are also ខ្ទត (khtɔɔt) (to move the buttocks), ខ្ទីត (khtiit) (to have the buttocks protruding while walking), ខ្ទុត (khtut) (to move the buttocks), ខ្ទែត (khtɛɛt) (to have prominent buttocks), គគូទ (kɔkuut) (buttocks), ចំតិត (cɑmtət) (to stick the buttocks out), ចំទយ (châmtôy) (to stick the buttocks out), គ្រហីត (krɔhəyt) (face down with the bottom sticking up). —Stephen (Talk) 06:40, 3 April 2018 (UTC)
I've added the etymology and alternative forms. Perhaps only one or two can be verified. According to Sealang dictionary, គូត (kuut), គូទ (kuut), គូធ (kuut) are all variants. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 06:52, 3 April 2018 (UTC)
@Octahedron80, Stephen G. Brown: The term is derived from Pali gūtha or Sanskrit गूथ (gūtha, feces), which makes sense. គូទ (kuut) gives lots of "bum" related images, plain Google hits and three Google books hits. I think we can make គូទ (kuut) the main entry and mark the others as verified. @Stephen, apparently English is Octahedron80's second language but I understand what he means. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 07:01, 3 April 2018 (UTC)
@Octahedron80: You have created គូថ (kuut). It's yet another alternative form of the same word. We just need to decide, which one should be the main form and which ones are alternative spellings. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 13:39, 3 April 2018 (UTC)
គូថ is the most correct spelling compared to Pali/Sanskrit consonant group [ត ទ ធ ន] = [t th d dh n]. Thai also has คูถ in one form only. You know that Khmer words from Pali/Sanskrit almost keep original consonants. Or else, គូត & គូថ may not relate each other; I have new theory that គូត may be borrowed from Thai ตูด but they don't like to pronounce t-. --Octahedron80 (talk) 21:26, 3 April 2018 (UTC)


Really? Needs formatting if OK. SemperBlotto (talk) 05:33, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

en:w:Carmen Saliare (en:w:Old Latin#Corpus). But the date, meaning and etc. might need sourcing in the entry. - 21:34, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
Varro ed. A Spengel attests cozeulodorieso (or at least *cozeulodorieso as conjecture or construction based on manuscript readings). For other issues there is WT:RFC. - 01:53, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

qui custodiet ipsos custodes[edit]

Appears in English and other non-Latin texts, but is it also Latin? GBS for ""qui custodiet ipsos custodes" sunt" (the alleged proverb + the word for "(they) are") brings up no result; ""qui custodiet ipsos custodes" est" (the alleged proverb + the word for "(he/she/it) is") brings up an Italian misquotation of Juvenal's satire and some English and French stuff which is not sufficient for attesting a Latin term. - 07:59, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

This could only be a relative clause, not a question, in Latin. —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 12:32, 4 April 2018 (UTC)
Well, Georges states that there is a substantivally used interrogative pronoun qui. Additionally, he mentions a difference in meaning between qui (substantival pronoun) and quis (substantival pronoun), but that would not necessarily be a problem in this case. L&S seems to mention the same although not so directly. Pons still mentions a substantivally used qui but doesn't give the difference in meaning. It instead mentions a difference in usage.
  • Georges: "quī, quae, quod, I) Pron. interrog. [...] (eig. adjektivisch, öfter aber auch substantivisch, jedoch so, daß qui nach Stand u. Charakter einer Person fragt, quis nach dem Namen)".
  • L&S: "qui, quae, quod [...] pron. I Interrog. [...] (adjectively; while quis, quid is used substantively; qui, [substantivally?] of persons, asks for the character, quis usu. [= usually] for the name)"
  • Pons: "quī, quae, quod [...] b. subst., selten u. fast nur im indir. Frages." [substantivally, rare and almost only in the indirect interrogative sentence]
But possible correctness is irrelevant for existence. - 03:21, 5 April 2018 (UTC)


This would-be word is sometimes said to be the longest Czech word. However, I wonder whether it is attested in use rather than via mere mentions, as required by WT:ATTEST. --Dan Polansky (talk) 05:39, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

Searches: google books:nejneobhospodařovávatelnější, google books:nejneobhospodařovávatelnějšími. There, I only find mentions, e.g. 'delší slovo v češtině je pouze „nejneobhospodařovávatelnějšími")'. --Dan Polansky (talk) 05:47, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
Have you tried searching for PDFs on Google web search? Most of the hits don't look like durable archived sources at all though. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 09:36, 12 April 2018 (UTC)
I checked that search, and I see mentions, not uses, like "nejneobhospodařovávatelnější za české slovo neuznají". --Dan Polansky (talk) 20:29, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

Neobhospodařovávatelný has a little use; it occurs, for example, several times here in some official document. Isn’t nejneobhospodařovávatelnější its regular superlative? Should the attestation criteria be applied to such forms? Guldrelokk (talk) 03:15, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

That's a useful find. Nonetheless, my position is that comparatives and superlatives are subject to attestation. There certainly isn't anything in WT:CFI to say otherwise. My more stringent position that each inflected form has to be attested found considerable resistance, but there was support for attestation of segments of inflected forms, such as the segment of all plurals. Thus, we should not claim a noun is countable unless that is attested, and we should not claim an adjective is comparable (gradable) unless that is attested. --Dan Polansky (talk) 06:13, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

Nix Olympica[edit]

Entered by an anon. No sources given. DonnanZ (talk) 11:47, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

Google has English results, e.g. New Scientist 24 Feb 1972. There should be enough results for an English entry. Planeten Monde Ringsysteme (1984) has it in German which could make it Translingual. As for gender, if it were Latin it would be feminine (nix), but in German it might be feminine (nix) or masculine (Schnee, Berg, Vulkan). In the provided source, gender isn't visible but hidden in "Riesenvulkan Nix Olympica", "von Nix Olympica". For Translingual terms with Mons (Category:mul:Geography), it would be easier. Though, considering other languages as well (English pretty much not having gender, French only having masculine and feminine, Danish only having common (masculine and feminine merged into one) and neutrum), it might make more sense to not have such terms as Translingual, or to have some note somewhere... - 16:06, 28 April 2018 (UTC)
Five references can be found in the Wikipedia article on Olympus Mons, which may be enough to verify this. DonnanZ (talk) 19:30, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
You've got to be kidding. This is such a famous name and feature. If you don't recognize this name, I hazard to guess you don't recognize anything in astronomy.
-- 05:29, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
Some of these sources might have mentionings (like "it was called X", "it was named X", "old name: X") and some might not be durably archived. Mentionings would be ok for Wikipedia and also for some Wiktionaries but not for the English one (WT:CFI). Nontheless it's attestable as Translingual, there are at least three English usages (google books, "Nix Olympica", "of Nix Olympica", ...) and three German usages (also see below).
[61]/[62], [63], [64], [65] have it as masculine; [66], [67] as feminine. google gives another masculine result for "der nix olympica" but I can't see it. This might lead to a gender problem, if it stays "Translingual"... - 00:28, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
It's been used for over 100 years, and was originally coined in Italian by an Italian astronomer. If you look at maps of Mars from the 19th and 20th century, you'll find it on them (along with canals) Anything published before 1980 is clearly not an electronic-only document (such as the scans of 1800s sources listed in multiple languages) thus was published on paper. As it became obsolete before 1980, it will not be an ephemeral electronic source term. -- 08:04, 17 May 2018 (UTC)


Rfv-sense "(literally) a white fox". —Suzukaze-c 00:29, 30 April 2018 (UTC)

May 2018[edit]


RFV for this in modern Persian either as a name or to mean 'knowledge'. Kaixinguo~enwiktionary (talk) 08:48, 3 May 2018 (UTC)

@ZxxZxxZ, Irman Kaixinguo~enwiktionary (talk) 08:48, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
@Calak, Qehath Kaixinguo~enwiktionary (talk) 09:33, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
The entry links to a disambig page on the Persian wikipedia which only lists place-names in California and Arizona, and a bunch of car models. There are other American place-names that come up in search that just aren't listed on that disambig. Seems not to mean any of the things our entry says it does, but I could be wrong. — [ זכריה קהת ] Zack. — 12:28, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
No usage in Persian language (modern or classic) except as a female given name (in modern Persian). It is a learned borrowing from Avestan, see Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-Iranian/witˢtás for more.--Calak (talk) 12:31, 3 May 2018 (UTC)


It does seem to mean "fall" in Thanh Hoa dialect, although I haven't found reference to it doing so in Nghe Tinh dialects. ばかFumikotalk 08:07, 5 May 2018 (UTC)


A hot word, tagged as being older than a year, with no definition. - -sche (discuss) 18:46, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

I remember seeing a report that it became popular to use the manji (卍) in Japan's youth recently. There's even a manji gesture which consists of crossing your arms in some manner. The included Wikipedia article says it's a symbol for hype and basically means 'awesome', but I can't read the details. First reference (Kotobank) on Wikipedia says it's a compound of 'まじ' (really) and '卍' (cool) and got some media attention. I think kotobank.jp was used as an acceptable source for verification here before, but I don't know our policies. I added a definition at . Korn [kʰũːɘ̃n] (talk) 08:21, 12 May 2018 (UTC)


Only 58 hits on Google. It is non-standard to use the prefix vir- for words that are not about animals. Robin van der Vliet (talk) (contribs) 20:19, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

I found a second quotation, but I can't find a third one. —Granger (talk · contribs) 15:19, 14 May 2018 (UTC)


Nothing in Google Books for the forms I searched for. Ultimateria (talk) 15:23, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

I think it's good, but it's regional slang (El Salvador) and less likely to be found in books. Some examples of use can be found here. —Stephen (Talk) 04:41, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
paletón is citeable, but I still don't find any common verb forms for paletonear on this site. Ultimateria (talk) 18:18, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
That's odd. It's not used on that page. My eyes must be playing tricks on me. Here are a few places where I found paletonear:
termbank.com —Stephen (Talk) 06:22, 1 June 2018 (UTC)


Spanish, obsolete form of hambre. Ultimateria (talk) 21:30, 20 May 2018 (UTC)


Rfv-sense "a Pocket Monster". —Suzukaze-c 17:09, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

I don't understand, what's in question, this is clearly in widespread use. Korn [kʰũːɘ̃n] (talk) 11:45, 29 July 2018 (UTC)

vive la différence[edit]

Not used idiomatically in French, AFAIK; see this, for example. Similar case to toujours perdrix. --Per utramque cavernam 23:10, 26 May 2018 (UTC)


Rfv-sense: (Hakka) will. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 01:10, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

@Suzukaze-c Where did you find it? Dokurrat (talk) 04:15, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
@Justinrleung: Not sure about the prestige dialect of Hakka, but in Sabah Hakka, we do use it as how one would use 会 (to know, to be able, can, will). So yes, it can mean "will", for eg. 你今晚夜曉出去無?,meaning "Will you go out tonight?". Qhwans (talk) 15:53, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
@Qhwans: In most dialects of Hakka, I think it's usually 會 instead of 曉. This might be particular to certain Hakka dialects, maybe only in Sabah? That'll make verification kind of difficult. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 17:48, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
@Justinrleung: I found this video on Youtube, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ss1JiGGXrko, at 0:19 & 0:38 of the video it says "曉射出" (will shoot out) & "一定晓飞个" (will definitely fly) respectively. Just to note, the video is (obv) not for academic use, but for comedic use, so not sure whether this would "verify" the use of in Sabahan Hakka. Oh and, just to point out, the speaker in the video has a little bit (just a tincy bit) of some other Hakka accent (as not all Sabahan Hakkas have their ancestry tracing back to Bao'an) and he also tends to add Mandarin into the sentences so he might not even be of Hakka ancestry, but in Sabah, even if you're not Hakka, you'd definitely know at least some. Qhwans (talk) 18:17, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
@Qhwans: Great, I think this is good evidence. I've seen another video using Huiyang Hakka, which I think is quite close to Bao'an Hakka, and they also use 曉. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 23:38, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
@Qhwans, Dokurrat: I've added a few examples from videos. AFAIK, these varieties are normally not written, so it would be hard to verify in written material. I think the videos should be good enough for verification. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 05:02, 16 October 2018 (UTC)


RFV for reading utsuto. Included in ja.wiktionary. —Suzukaze-c 04:07, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

I sure can't find any support for this reading.
I find this spelling in both Weblio (in various sources) and [https://kotobank.jp/word/%E7%86%A8%E6%96%97-112174 Kotobank (also multiple sources), but other than the JA Wiktionary included in Weblio's hits, no one lists any reading except のし (noshi).
Weblio has nothing at all for うつと (utsuto), and only the unrelated adverb for うっと (utto). Likewise, Kotobank has nothing for うつと (utsuto) and only the adverb for うっと (utto).
The JA Wikipedia article only lists the のし (noshi) reading for Japanese, mentioning:


Note that this says 「熨斗」は, indicating that this is (the Japanese rendering of) the Chinese term. Compare modern Min Nan reading ut-táu. I suspect that the JA Wiktionary editor was confused by this, as also suggested by their apparent misspelling of the kana -- the JA WP says ウット (utto), whereas the JA WT says ウツト (utsuto), and the editor of our Japaneses entry must have followed suit.
If we can find any evidence for this term actually used in JA with the utto reading, we should clarify the sense, as this seems restricted to JA contexts talking about ZH culture and language, where this reading refers to the iron used to press clothing. Our senses for the noshi reading are lacking, both at the Japanese 熨斗 entry and at the linked English noshi entry. Modern JA noshi is either short for 火熨斗 (hinoshi, traditional clothing iron, literally fire + pressing, smoothing), or refers to a kind of origami, sometimes even just a printed picture or stamp of the origami pattern, or in extremely abbreviated instances even just the two hiragana spelling out のし (noshi), as explained in more detail at the JA WP article. The dried abalone is generally omitted in modern usage, which isn't clear from either our JA or EN entries. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 16:17, 14 August 2018 (UTC)


Entered by new user @Twinkymommy, replaced with {{d}} by @Suzukaze-c without a given reason.__Gamren (talk) 12:23, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

Special:Contributions/Asdfqwertypkfynzsgj doesn't inspire confidence. —Suzukaze-c 17:28, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
Is at least attestable with mentionings, even with mentionings in younger or 'modern' linguistic sources (WT:CFI permits mentionings for LDLs, Bavarian is n LDL), e.g. [68], [69], [70] ([71] gives it with dual meaning). However, in contrary to other spellings, I saw no usage of this spelling - but that doesn't mean anything and eß could have been used in a dialectal modern (post-1900) source. - 22:15, 14 September 2018 (UTC)


Entered by new user @Twinkymommy, replaced with {{d}} by @Suzukaze-c without a given reason.__Gamren (talk) 12:24, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

Is attestable. books.google.com/books?id=_SRoAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA348 with a text from Tirol: "So löbt dönn wohl, öß griana Waada!" with translations öß = ihr, Waada = Weiden. However, this doesn't attest the label. BTW 1: Text also has önk = euch, mar = wir. BTW 2: "öß" does also mean "is" in some (other German) dialects. BTW 3: There are also mentionings like books.google.com/books?id=UK9TAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA75 , which, if refering to a Bavarian dialect, would be sufficient as Bavarian is an LDL. BTW 4: See also ös, es. -00:04, 22 June 2018 (UTC)
Is attested. - 22:15, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

June 2018[edit]


Senses 4 ("argumenative") and 5 ("pagan"). Benwing2 (talk) 00:01, 4 June 2018 (UTC) BTW a couple of examples that appear to mean "pagan" (and this is how Google Translate renders it):

  1. [72]: "Национализм племенной язычен. Это не игра слов, напоминающая о том, что "язык" некогда значило народ, племя. Он язычен, как противухристианское понятие. Поэтому в христианской морали ему нет места, степени, графы".
  2. [73]: ... Владимир был язычнее самого Соломона из Ветхого завета. Следует согласиться, что число жен, а соответственно, и сыновей завышено, но пока неизвестно насколько. Мы считаем, что первая часть сообщения4 о посылке ...

Benwing2 (talk) 00:03, 4 June 2018 (UTC)



See Wiktionary:Tea room/2018/June#Abu_(ISO:ado)_lemmas: it seems that these are not in fact the words for "bird and "ear" in either of the two languages which are most commonly called Abu, and it's not clear what language, if any, they are words (for "bird" and "ear") in. - -sche (discuss) 03:55, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

I think it's almost right. The Abu language of Papua New Guinea (also called Adjora, Adjoria, Auwa, Azao, Sabu). See rosettaproject. I can't read most of the file types available, but I can read part of ado.txt:
bird: ungkara (uŋkara)
bone: gaar (gaːr)
breast: oncë (oncÉ™)
ear: kur
father: cas
he/she: më (mÉ™)
mouth: kamaŋka (kamangku)
thou: uɲi
tree: kɨ (kï) (kɨ = kɨ ?)
we: aɲi (a-nyi) (aɲi = aɲi ?)
you: u-nyi —Stephen (Talk) 06:31, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
As for the 'uglyness', setting the encoding to unicode might give the correct forms: uŋkara, gaːr, oncə, më & mə, kamaŋka, uɲi, kɨ & kï, aɲi. - 03:30, 10 September 2018 (UTC)
Hmm, but this reference about the Abu of New Guinea has very different words. (And note that the "bird" word the Rosetta Project has is ungkara, not our ungaraka.) - -sche (discuss) 23:28, 5 January 2019 (UTC)


Catalan, alt form of síndria. Ultimateria (talk) 02:11, 12 June 2018 (UTC)


Rfv-sense: what. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 05:37, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

I've seen this use before. Found some on a quick search: [74][75][76][77]. Wyang (talk) 05:46, 13 June 2018 (UTC)





英语 瓦特 什么意思? 什么

Also, used by a Chinese person in a wechat chat —This unsigned comment was added by Geographyinitiative (talkcontribs) at 06:18, 13 June 2018 (UTC).

@Wyang: Thanks for finding those, but I don't know if those can be considered durably archived. The "clearly widespread use" can't be applied here AFAICT. @Geographyinitiative:, please see WT:CFI... Baidu Zhidao is an unreliable source and anyhow, it would not help here in RFV, where we're looking for actual usage. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 06:44, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

Abeodan, Ablendan[edit]

Removed with the comment "unsourced nonsense". —This unsigned comment was added by DTLHS (talkcontribs) at 4:50, 19 June 2018 (UTC).

Problematic entries got UtherPendrogn banned so 🤷 —Suzukaze-c 09:15, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
That and being confrontational, aggressive and unwilling to accept criticism... Knowing Uther, I'm sure it really is unsourced nonsense, but having someone we don't know come in and remove big chunks of entries without discussion beforehand isn't much better. Chuck Entz (talk) 13:44, 20 June 2018 (UTC)


initialism — 06:40, 20 June 2018 (UTC)


Catalan for bachata. Ultimateria (talk) 19:36, 20 June 2018 (UTC)


Aragonese. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 23:19, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

Vietnamese [edit]

I find it odd that Vietnamese writers would make use of a specifically Japanese phonetic glyph with a value of nu as the typographic equivalent of the " ditto mark.

I suspect that the intended glyph is not the Japanese katakana character (nu, Unicode hex value 30CC), but rather the graphically similar Chinese (and thus Vietnamese chữ Nôm) character (again, as well, Unicode hex value 53C8). In fact, the Japanese phonetic katakana character originally derived from a shorthand version of (used phonetically to represent nu), which includes the glyph as its right-hand portion.

Our entry at cites a website that appears to be volunteer-based data of uncertain provenance. Meanwhile, the Vietnamese Nom Preservation Foundation's online lookup tool has no entry for ヌ (Ux30CC), but it does have an entry for 又 (Ux53C8). Could someone check other sources and confirm?

‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 21:53, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

The website in question says has a pronunciation of lại, and you can find several instances of pronounced lại on the same site. It is very likely to be a confusion of the two by their shapes. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 04:18, 23 June 2018 (UTC)
Thank you for the additional information. The chunom.org website is the one cited at the ヌ#Vietnamese entry, and the data there is of unclear provenance. I cannot tell if this is a reliable and trustworthy source, or instead something that might be error-prone in a manner similar to Jisho.org. (That might be what you were suggesting, that chunom.org is error-prone?)
If, ultimately, the Ux30CC glyph is actually in use in electronic Vietnamese chữ Nôm texts, then we should probably have an entry. If instead electronic texts only use Ux53C8, ヌ#Vietnamese should probably go away.
Are there any other electronic Vietnamese sources, or even ideally published works, that use glyph (Ux30CC) interchangeably with (Ux53C8)? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 18:16, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
It is a reduced form of ("again"), used as an iteration mark in Vietnamese Chu Nom, e.g. 喑ヌ (ầm ầm), 猪ヌ (chưa chưa), 赤ヌ (xích xích), 紅ヌ (hồng hồng). Lại means “again”. Listing it on is probably using the wrong codepoint, but then I'm not sure where this should belong. Wyang (talk) 22:34, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
They seem to use U+30CC and U+31F4 interchangeably, which suggests there is no officially assigned code point. I prefer moving the information to with a soft redirect at , until the official code point is given in Unicode. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 02:27, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
Even Chunom.org's main entry is the U+314F one (), while their U+30CC entry is pretty minimal.
In the absence of any Vietnamese editor input, I second Shinji's suggestion. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 21:42, 30 July 2018 (UTC)


Last time I RFVed this entry, it was Latin, and other editors decided to keep it, but as Translingual (see Talk:mume). I am now sending it back to RFV, because it has never been cited in any language. It is only used as a specific epithet for one species, Prunus mume. This is only one cite, so the best course of action would be to have Prunus mume no longer link to mume, and explain the etymology on that page. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 04:15, 23 June 2018 (UTC)


Spanish for "model (person)", from English. Ultimateria (talk) 13:17, 26 June 2018 (UTC)


Rfv-sense: having a giant heart. I would say grandkora for this sense. In my experience korega means "heartfelt". —Granger (talk · contribs) 01:07, 27 June 2018 (UTC)


Moved from RFD.__Gamren (talk) 14:49, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

Spanish, to remove the lactose from. The participles exist and should be classified as adjectives, but the verb forms don't seem to. Ultimateria (talk) 13:41, 26 June 2018 (UTC)


Rfv-sense "(as opposed to complex kanji) simple". —Suzukaze-c 21:53, 30 June 2018 (UTC)

I'm not aware of such a sense, nor are Obunsha, Kenkyusha, or Shogakukan dictionaries. Possibly a misunderstanding of (something like) this from 大辞泉: 「ひらがな(平仮名)。仮名の一。漢字の草体から作られた草仮名(そうがな)をさらに簡略化したもの。」 (Hiragana. A type of kana. Derived from sōgana cursive-style kanji and further simplified.) Cnilep (talk) 03:46, 17 July 2018 (UTC)
The strange thing is that it was added here by @Bendono, who seems to have made a lot of great edits. —Suzukaze-c 04:00, 17 July 2018 (UTC)
I wrote that. No offense intended, but you need better dictionaries. Those single volume dictionaries are aimed at everyday life and leave out far more than they actually include. You can confirm this sense in 日本国語大辞典--which even includes citations--that I will quote:
*洒落本・金錦三調伝(1783)「いやならいやとひらかなで」 Bendono (talk) 05:28, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
Given the quotes and usage, I might suggest an edit to the gloss given of just “simple”: perhaps “simple terms” would better convey the sense? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 19:09, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

July 2018[edit]



  1. Frai, usage of using French word mixed with Thai word.

I've also rfved Frai- neither seems to exist, and the IP who created this is notorious for edits with no basis in reality. Chuck Entz (talk) 00:18, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

hileon, hileonül, jileon, jileonül[edit]

Volapük words for male and female lions and cubs. Nothing useful on WikiSource and BGC. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 13:22, 2 July 2018 (UTC)


Because while the IP is not formatting the edits correctly at all, there is a point here. I cannot find any uses of this form. SURJECTION ·talk·contr·log· 21:26, 3 July 2018 (UTC)


Rfv-sense: racket (Esperanto). —Granger (talk · contribs) 02:10, 4 July 2018 (UTC)


The sense "command". I suspect @AugPi meant the sense of a ruling? Alexis Jazz (talk) 05:00, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

I expect they meant tot (iemands) beschikking staan, "to be at (someone's) command". MuDavid (talk) 03:33, 30 July 2018 (UTC)
@MuDavid: I see.. Thanks, I clarified it, it's good now. It kind of blends with "access", but the same seems to be true in English. (I have access to a computer, a computer is at my disposal) Alexis Jazz (talk) 20:52, 30 July 2018 (UTC)


__Gamren (talk) 11:34, 7 July 2018 (UTC)


@Refulgir questions this word's existence. PseudoSkull (talk) 19:00, 8 July 2018 (UTC)


Rfv-sense "adverb: weekly" —Suzukaze-c 19:19, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

Hmm, I'm stuck on the opposite thought -- how is this a "noun"? Same for マンスリー (mansurī). ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 21:15, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
As a noun, it often refers to a periodical published once a week: 朝日ウィークリー, 日経ウィークリー, 毎日ウィークリー (oxymoron notwithstanding) etc. I think it's also used as a truncated form of ウィークリー・マンション, a room rented by the week.
"Adverb" is such a heterodox category that I'm having trouble thinking of a clear test for Japanese adverb-ness. Some sources that use standard European labels (e.g. Breen) call ウィークリー an adverb, but I'm not sure if that's because it's borrowed from an English adverb, or based on some analysis of Japanese.
I did find this, which feels adverb-y:
ウィークリーにするという (ぜん) (てい)でスタートせよと。
Wīkurī ni suru toiu zentei de sutāto seyo to.
We should start with the assumption that it is weekly.
I'm not 100% convinced it's an adverb, but neither am I convinced it is not. Cnilep (talk) 02:15, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
Doesn't an adverb in Japanese mean that it's used independently without a particle, like 結局? Nardog (talk) 07:06, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
Clearly it is only a noun in Japanese. You can say ウィークリー行う but never *ウィークリー行う. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 03:16, 23 July 2018 (UTC)
I see some usage as a -na adjective. It looks like the grammar for this term may currently be in flux. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 23:43, 23 July 2018 (UTC)

More Volapük words for meat[edit]

beramit, berülamit, bubamitaloet, bubülamit, dindunamit, dogamit, dogülamit, dökamit, frogamit, ganamit, gokamit, gokülamit, hojipamit, jipülamit, kanguramit, kaparamit, katamit, katülamitGranger (talk · contribs) 05:22, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

Only one attestation on Wikisource for dökamit and ganamit, the others are completely unattested. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 08:39, 16 July 2018 (UTC)


Esperanto for "male pupil". I see one mention on Usenet, but nothing else on Google Books, Google Groups, or Tekstaro. —Granger (talk · contribs) 05:35, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

Potentially amusing moment of derpitude: I glanced across this thread and idly wondered how it was that part of one's eyeball would be male, or how it was that a language would bother with a specific word just for the parts of males' eyeballs. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 22:51, 11 July 2018 (UTC)


Spanish, "(San Antonio) cowardly". There's one reference, but I don't think there will be two others. Ultimateria (talk) 00:39, 12 July 2018 (UTC)


Only 64 hits on Google, I never heard this word before. Robin van der Vliet (talk) (contribs) 01:35, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

@Morgengave, who made the entry. I can find some use on one Belgian blog, but otherwise only scannos. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 08:21, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
While not common, there seems to be a slowly increasing use of the word:
  • (1998, NRC Handelsblad): Nu vier regels uit de Ballade van de dames uit vroeger tijd met de bekende slotregel, die trouwens bij Chaucer al te lezen viel over de sneeuwen van gisterjaar. [80]
  • (2015, Nieuwpoort Nieuws): Foto’s Van gisterjaar: Marktstraat in Nieuwpoort en het trieste waargebeurde verhaal van Peter ‘ Petje de Kortn’ Provoost. [81]
  • (2018, Autofans press release): Aan de éne kant heb je het Opel van gisterjaar met GM-invloeden, aan de andere kant het Opel van morgen onder Franse PSA-vleugels. [82] Morgengave (talk) 13:50, 27 January 2019 (UTC)


Rfv-sense: Esperanto for male goat. I see uses of the other sense, and several of what seem to be typos or misspellings of kaprico, but only one use of this sense. —Granger (talk · contribs) 03:49, 13 July 2018 (UTC)


Spanish, to remove palm trees from. Ultimateria (talk) 13:53, 13 July 2018 (UTC)


Spanish, to call with a smartphone. Ultimateria (talk) 00:10, 17 July 2018 (UTC)


Not sure this is WT:ATTESTed.

It has mentions here and here, which seem to be pulled from books. —Suzukaze-c 06:51, 17 July 2018 (UTC)


Rfv-sense "glacial island".__Gamren (talk) 11:51, 17 July 2018 (UTC)


It's in Katersat (which refers to Erik Fleischer and Ordbogeraq), and in this, but not in DAKA, and I can't find usages. However, DAKA has nassuk, which I can attest here (DAKA defines it as gevir, which means "pair of antlers" as well as tak, but the news article clearly uses it in the "single antler" sense). I have refrained from relying on the first two sources exclusively, because there seem to be many unattested words, like these words for different variants of red. I'm not confident they're reliable, even though they come from respectable sources.__Gamren (talk) 12:20, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

Oh, and this probably doesn't matter, but this book talks of an Inupiaq word aaġiaq (valley, pass), and this book refers to someone named Aagiaq.__Gamren (talk) 12:25, 17 July 2018 (UTC)


Rfv-sense: "a just or proper reason".

Apparently this rfv tag was added by User:Poketalker in May 2018, but discussion was not started here. (Apologies if I missed the discussion or misread the history.) I'm not familiar with such a sense, and couldn't readily find it in a quick skim of my dictionary. Cnilep (talk) 01:58, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for putting this up; it's exclusive to Daijirin:
Roughly "the correct/right method or reason". Do you or anyone else have a better translation? ~ POKéTalker) 03:59, 20 July 2018 (UTC)
The KDJ has the following two senses under the kyō reading, from which I could see the development of the sense in Daijirin:

3 一般的に、教訓、教化など教えを記した書。また、単に書物。

Generally, a text describing a moral, enlightenment, or teaching. Or, any document.

4 (経文を読む意から)仏事を行なうこと。経供養をすること。

(From the sense of reading the sutras) Holding a Buddhist service. Performing Buddhist rites.

Under the kei reading then, the KDJ lists a very similar sense to the one in Daijirin:

1 正しいすじみち。正しい道理。のり。つね。

Correct logic. Correct reasoning. Rule. Custom.

Sense 4.1 at Chinese isn't too far off. And considering the underlying original sense of this character, warp threads, as in something that runs consistently and regularly through, the "correct reason" sense is not unreasonable (ha!). ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 17:40, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

ᡩᠣᡵᡤᡳ ᠪᠠᡳᡨᠠ ᠪᡝ ᡠᡥᡝᡵᡳ ᡴᠠᡩᠠᠯᠠᡵᠠ ᠶᠠᠮᡠᠨ[edit]

I'm wondering about this word's existence. 2602:252:D2B:3AA0:C073:2829:9837:FE1B 20:22, 21 July 2018 (UTC)

See w:Imperial Household Department. Also 內務府. Google depends on OCS for Manchu script, so you'll probably have to search using the transliteration. You could probably find it in Paul Georg von Mollendorf's "Essay on Manchu Literature" in Journal of China Branch of R. A. S., Shanghai, vol. xxiv (1890), p. 1-45. —Stephen (Talk) 00:42, 24 July 2018 (UTC)


Rfv-sense: Short for 芝士蛋糕 (cheesecake). @Tooironic — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 08:25, 23 July 2018 (UTC)

I've seen it twice in menus for cafes in mainland China, but I don't have any citations for this usage. ---> Tooironic (talk) 11:35, 23 July 2018 (UTC)
@Tooironic: Do you remember if they had some qualifier in front of it, and could you give an example of how it's used? — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 16:29, 23 July 2018 (UTC)
I just remember them being listed as [某某]芝士 without the 蛋糕 after it. Sorry I don't have anything concrete. I won't object if it gets deleted. ---> Tooironic (talk) 16:34, 23 July 2018 (UTC)

Currently, the first result for "芝士" in Google News is 颠覆北海道双层芝士的新晋网红 (for me at least). —Suzukaze-c 05:31, 24 July 2018 (UTC)

nanoplanedo, nanplanedo, planedoido, preskaŭplanedo[edit]

Those 4 words have very low amount of hits on Google. They can probably not be attested in the actual language usage. Robin van der Vliet (talk) (contribs) 17:35, 23 July 2018 (UTC)

I see some mentions, but no durably archived uses. —Granger (talk · contribs) 04:03, 8 August 2018 (UTC)


Spanish, "Chinese" as a noun. A person or the language? Ultimateria (talk) 17:11, 26 July 2018 (UTC)


Rfv-sense "coy" (Dutch). Not meaning "shy, timid", but the intended sense is unclear. Senses 2-5 of coy all seem unlikely though. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 10:19, 30 July 2018 (UTC)



Google Books and Google Scholar hits suggest that it is a mere transcription of Mandarin putonghua into the Katakana script, and is not used *in Japanese* to *mean* Mandarin. —Suzukaze-c 06:08, 31 July 2018 (UTC)

Maybe http://www.kouiki-kansai.jp/material/files/group/3/1489641496.pdf
http://www.interq.or.jp/white/ishiyama/news201603.html —This unsigned comment was added by (talk).
  • With the possible exception of the PDF (and maybe even there too), those are all cases where the term is being used as a distinctly foreign term that Japanese readers are not expected to know -- they all include glosses immediately afterwards, a clear indication that the authors do not consider this to be a Japanese term understood by their readers. It's as if I described this situation as a clear instance of Wörterzusammenplatzierungsmissverständniss (a confusion of formatting and term use, erroneously viewed as evidence of lexicality [made up just now for purposes of illustration]). Without the gloss, the readership would not be expected to know the term, and even with the gloss, the term is not necessarily viewed as a lexical term belonging to the main language of the text.
Iff (if and only if) we can find at least three instances of プートンホワ (pūtonhowa) in use in running Japanese text, without glosses, and clearly used to mean Mandarin Chinese, this term does not meet our criteria for inclusion. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 16:37, 9 August 2018 (UTC)

August 2018[edit]

for favor[edit]

Spanish, eye dialect of "por favor". Ultimateria (talk) 17:48, 2 August 2018 (UTC)


Spanish, obsolete form of pájaro. It's a "salvaged" redirect to the correct page from years ago. Ultimateria (talk) 17:58, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

pour faveur[edit]

Rfv-sense: "fortunately". I've never heard nor seen this. Per utramque cavernam 12:46, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

For the usage of "fortunately", I took it from a book, the Rio Sangre. It's the only source that I have seen with the meaning. Aearthrise (𓂀) 13:30, 5 August 2018 (UTC)
After reviewing the criteria of inclusion, I don't believe the one source I found merits inclusion. Aearthrise (𓂀) 21:17, 5 August 2018 (UTC)


Only dictionary cites on Google Books. Ultimateria (talk) 02:05, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

@Ultimateria These don't seem to exactly fit the current definition, but here:

  1. 1785, Gaspar de Molina y Saldívar, Reflexiones sobre la arquitectura, ornato y musica del templo, page 326:
    Llaman acastillar colocar la cañonería de modo, que los cañones mas largos ocupen el medio, y disminuyan hácia los extremos.
  2. 1839, Félix González de León, Noticia historica del origen de los nombres de las calles de esta M.N.M.L.Y.M.H. ciudad de Sevilla:
    En esta época cada familia se acastillaba en sus casas y aun en los templos (como ya he referido en otros lugares de esta obra) ó cuyo fin fabricaban estas torres, y las guarnecian de armas.
  3. 1942, Luis Enrique Azarola Gil, Apellidos de la patria vieja, page 176:
    Se acastilló en las virtudes y costumbres tradicionales, y fundó su hogar en unión de doña Pilar Carro, hija del capitán Juan Carro y de doña Rosa Costales, con descendencia: []

DTLHS (talk) 02:28, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

Thanks, I've added the cites under a new line with {{rfdef}} for now. Ultimateria (talk) 01:17, 9 August 2018 (UTC)


Ido. This doesn't seem citable. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 09:42, 7 August 2018 (UTC)


Ido, nothing on BGC. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 12:07, 10 August 2018 (UTC)













Ido. For most of these I couldn't find three cites. It is possible to find multiple cites for cindrigar, but these were not independent. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 13:06, 10 August 2018 (UTC)


Ido. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 13:37, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

infuzar is listed in: L.H. Dyer: Ido-English Dictionary: I (based on a classical dictionary), Marcel Pesch: Radikaro Idala, p. 109, Fernando Zangoni: Dizionario Italiano-Ido, "infusione: ... fare un'", p. 126.--Edfyr (talk) 15:12, 27 January 2019 (UTC)


"to say: aa". Note that Karelian is a LDL. SURJECTION ·talk·contr·log· 19:06, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

Hm, now I wonder if say aah would be includable in English. I also wonder why doctors ask you to make a sound at all.__Gamren (talk) 12:12, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
Citable from Karjalan kielen sanakirja at least. --Tropylium (talk) 11:16, 16 January 2019 (UTC)
I have now added it as a reference and will close the RFV as a pass in 7 days if there are no objections. — surjection?〉 19:38, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
RFV-passedsurjection?〉 08:32, 13 February 2019 (UTC)


Rfv-sense: an "A" grade in school. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 13:05, 14 August 2018 (UTC)


Rfv-sense: an "B" grade in school. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 13:06, 14 August 2018 (UTC)


Rfv-sense: a "C" grade in school. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 13:07, 14 August 2018 (UTC)


Rfv-sense: alternative form of 那. It's found in the Unihan database. It's also found in 中文大辭典, citing 字彙 and 正字通. However, 字彙 only says it is pronounced as 那, and 正字通 only says it is a 俗字 (unorthodox character) but doesn't say of which character. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 17:15, 14 August 2018 (UTC)


Portuguese, alt form of beringela. Ultimateria (talk) 02:17, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

User:Calavera entered the word and he's Portuguese, so.... There is also an entry for pt:brinjela on the Portuguese Wiktionary. There is a Portuguese-English dictionary at brinjela that shows it. There appear to be numerous sources at Google Books. —Stephen (Talk) 06:28, 15 August 2018 (UTC)


Ido. No usage on Google Books or even on regular Google Search. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 06:52, 16 August 2018 (UTC)


Spanish for "fetish". Ultimateria (talk) 01:46, 17 August 2018 (UTC)


Spanish, alt form of utopía. The Google Books results are names of works that are accentless because they were scanned in all caps. Ultimateria (talk) 12:50, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

アイポッド, モジラ, イーマック, アイブック[edit]

Suzukaze-c 06:49, 19 August 2018 (UTC)


Only Google Books search results I get which give 0 usages:

  • [83] (as maskuline "der Lehrer-Schwa")
  • [84] (a low-quality English-German dictionary)
  • [85] (a mentioning in » «)

Only Google Groups results I get which give 0 usages:

- 11:15, 19 August 2018 (UTC)

I haven’t ever heard this either. I’d classify it as private language of some phonetics teachers and give here my vote for its Deletion already. Fay Freak (talk) 11:49, 19 August 2018 (UTC)
The German Wiktionary has in its lemma a-Schwa the example, actually a quotation, „Sie würde allerdings als Vokal a-Schwa bzw. Lehrer-Schwa notiert.“ The given link is dead but archived here. This is course material from a 2003 proseminar at the Institut für Phonetik und Sprachliche Kommunikation of the University of Munich, not just some "private language".  --Lambiam 22:48, 19 August 2018 (UTC)
The text has "Sie würde allerdings als Vokal "a-Schwa" bzw. "Lehrer-Schwa" notiert.", i.e. it has quotation marks and de.wikt is misquoting it. The example "[e] ['le:.re] Lehrer: <er> am Wortende wird als sog. a-Schwa realisiert" is misquoted too, and in a way which makes the quote nonsense. Original has: "[ɐ] ['le:.rɐ] Le̱hrer: <er> am Wortende wird als sog. a-Schwa realisiert". - 04:15, 20 August 2018 (UTC)
  • Private language of an institute is still private language. Korn [kʰũːɘ̃n] (talk) 20:52, 4 September 2018 (UTC)
No citations provided, confusing. Delete. – Jberkel 13:27, 10 February 2019 (UTC)


Rfv-sense: playing card. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 19:01, 20 August 2018 (UTC)


(Scottish) I don't see the sense in having a Scottish entry. Even the brief Wikipedia article is mostly in standard English. DonnanZ (talk) 09:53, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

  • Keep, because we don't delete entries just because you don't like them. You can send it to RFV if you don't think it's attested. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 21:00, 19 August 2018 (UTC)
  • Keep. We treat Scots as a language, not as a subset of English. — Ungoliant (falai) 21:41, 19 August 2018 (UTC)


Dutch, I cannot find this words in the relevant dialect dictionaries and the WNT doesn't have any cites. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 07:40, 22 August 2018 (UTC)

H. Molema, Woordenboek der Groningsche volkstaal in de 19de eeuw, 1887 has: "oanen, in: dat oan ik nijt = dat tel, dat reken ik niet. Vergel. 't HD. ahnen." But that's spelled differently and is not Dutch but Low German (in the strict sense not including Low Franconian). -22:45, 14 September 2018 (UTC)



Set for deletion with the summary "no references". SURJECTION ·talk·contr·log· 14:50, 23 August 2018 (UTC)

The bizarre thing is that there are single cites for these forms at Tamooc. Perhaps they're obsolete or dated, but surely not unattested? @Marrovi could you explain? ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 10:05, 24 August 2018 (UTC)


Any takers. Not in Lewis and Short. SemperBlotto (talk) 16:26, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

The French Wiktionary refers to the Dictionnaire Gaffot, which in turn refers to Isidore of Seville, who, by the way, is also patron saint of the Internet. If this “last scholar of the ancient world” and purveyor of suspect etymologies is the only source (and, at that, a source that presumably contains mentions only, not uses), the word does not meet our CFI.  --Lambiam 00:02, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
-14:34, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
The template {{LDL}} generates the text This entry has fewer than three known examples of actual usage. I guess that also covers the case of zero known examples of actual usage.  --Lambiam 16:32, 27 September 2018 (UTC)
IMHO it does, and you're free to add the template. -20:34, 2 December 2018 (UTC)


Not in the two online dictionaries; will see if any NDL books attest this. ~ POKéTalker) 01:11, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

It looks to me like SOP as (nan, what, combining form) + 曜日 (yōbi, day of the week).
I see from the entry history that Shinji created the entry. Shinji, can you make a case for this being a lexical term and not just a sum of its parts? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 21:07, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
So when does 何 take its combining form? 21:44, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
Interrogative prefix  (なん) (nan-, what number) replaces only numerals. Compare  (なん) (にん) (nannin, how many people) and 何人 (なにじん) (nanijin, what nationality), or 何色 (なんしょく) (nanshoku, how many colors) and 何色 (なにいろ) (naniiro, what color).  (なん) (よう) () (nan'yōbi, which day of week) is the only exception where the prefix doesn’t replace a numeral, probably created by analogy with 何月 (なんがつ) (nangatsu, which month) and 何日 (なんにち) (nannichi, which day). The grammatically regular form would be なようび just like 何用 (なによう) (naniyō, for what purpose) and 何用品 (なにようひん) (naniyōhin, what product category). なようび is therefore a lexicalized term one has to memorize. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 22:46, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
Should that be RFD, rather than RFV? It's definitely citable.
Shinji, do 何月 (なんがつ) (nangatsu, which month) and 何日 (なんにち) (nannichi, which day) merit an entry? Are the words?
FWIW, compare with the Chinese 星期幾星期几 (xīngqījǐ, “which day of the week (question)”), formed by 星期 (xīngqī, “week”) and (, “what, which (of number)”). --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 23:01, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
何月 (なんがつ) (nangatsu, which month) and 何日 (なんにち) (nannichi, which day) are clearly words, but some might say they are sums of parts because they are regular. Note that their literal translations are “what number-th month” and “what number-th day” and you can use 何月 (なんがつ) (nangatsu) only for modern months. Imagine these dialogs:
  •  (むかし)如月 (きさらぎ) (いま)何月 (なんがつ)?
    2月 (にがつ)だよ。
    Mukashi no kisaragi wa ima no nangatsu?
    Nigatsu da yo.
    Which (what number-th) month of today corresponds the ancient kisaragi?
    February (2nd month).
  •  (いま)2月 (にがつ) (むかし)何月 (なんがつ)?
     (むかし) (すう) ()じゃないよ、名前 (なまえ)だよ。
    Ima no nigatsu wa mukashi no nangatsu?
    Mukashi wa sūji ja nai yo, namae da yo.
    Which (what number-th) ancient month corresponds today’s February (2nd month)?
    In ancient times they didn’t use numbers, they used names.
As for Chinese, 星期幾星期几 (xīngqījǐ) seems regular because they say 星期一 (xīngqīyī), 星期二 (xīngqī'èr), etc. but it merits an entry. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 23:30, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
@TAKASUGI Shinji: Thanks. You may have noticed, I went ahead and created 何月 (なんがつ) (nangatsu) and 何日 (なんにち) (nannichi).
As for 星期幾星期几 (xīngqījǐ), it wasn't a question, I used it as an example. To me, this question word seems quite irregular. It's asking about days of the week, not week numbers, following the pattern for making 6 out of 7 days of the week. However, you can't form the same question words with 禮拜礼拜 (lǐbài) or (zhōu), which are used to make days of the week. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 10:25, 30 August 2018 (UTC)


Attempted removal of {{hot word}} without any citations, let alone spanning a year. DCDuring (talk) 18:00, 31 August 2018 (UTC)

  • This word was seen in the category Hot words older than a year, so I removed that template from the word's page, as it was written on the Category's page that this category should be empty.
    • Also, this word came into common usage when Indian PM announced demonetization of 500 & 1000 rupee currency notes, on 8th Nov 2016. So, yes, it has been over a year.
    • Nonetheless, the word was always in existence, as earlier too demonetization had taken place in 1970s.
    • Entire news is filled with this word. You just have to Google नोटबंदी, and you'll thousands and thousands of news articles on this word, both in domestic and international media. Most recent example I can quote now is this BBC Hindi report here dated 30th August 2018.
    • Also on there is Hindi Wikipedia [page] on that incident, in which this word comes frequently.

September 2018[edit]


While Citations:Cimbrice & Talk:Cimbrice#meaning show that the term has a 2nd sense, I don't see any evidence that it refers to Cimbrians as modern German people.
On the contrary, I see reasons why it should be something else:

  • de:w:Zimbrisch#Dokumentation: "1602 [...] ältestes Buch in zimbrischer Sprache" & "machte der deutsche Kosmograph Anton Friedrich Büsching 1769 die Zimbern im deutschen Sprachraum bekannt" (Der Teutschen Sprach Ehren-Krantz from 1644 is older than the latter)
  • Abraham Peter Cronholm's Forn-nordiska minnen has: "Francico mich, mik, mih, vel Cimbrico mig [...] Cambrico þig, vel Franco-Theotisco thich, thigh, thih" & "sumus, estis, sunt, Cimbrice erum, erud, eru". "Francico mich, mik, mih" looks like it refers to German (OHG, OLG, maybe including OD) - and mig and þig as well es erum, erud, eru (also cp. eruð and vera) could refer to Icelandic or some other Norse German language.
    PS: Cronholm's is based on Georgius Hickesius' older work ([88]).
  • "Danis Cymbrisq; [Danis Cymbrisque] est Blydemanet [...]" and -maanet (from Der Teutschen Sprach Ehren-Krantz) could refer to some Norse German language (cp. måned: "From Old Danish .. ma(a)net ..."), LG (Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/mēnōþs#Descendants: "Middle Low German: mānet"), Low or South Low Franconian ("Middle Dutch: mānet, maent").

- 21:57, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

Incidentally, as long as we're having an RFV, it'd be good/necessary to have some examples of the first sense (relating to the Cimbri) in use as opposed to mentions in dictionaries. - -sche (discuss) 00:31, 2 September 2018 (UTC)
Aha, with the help of Antiquitatum Danicarum sermones XVL, which seems to use Cimbrica and Cimbria, etc, in senses that refers to the same group as the 1620, 1705 and other citations of Cimbrice, I may have worked it out: the book has sections on Cimbria & Scandinavia populosissime terra and other things and contains such lines as "Omnibus notissimum est totum Germanica faecundissimae tractum praecipue geminas illas aqvilonis, maximasq.; peninsulas, Cimbriam & Scandinaviam innumeris & fortissimis hominibus, omni exuberasse tempore." This suggests that it may be referring to the people who inhabit the Cimbric/Cimbrian Peninsula (Jutland), i.e. the Jutes or the Danes. (Although the Cimbri are said to be from Jutland, the 1620 and 1705 uses are providing clearly Germanic words not ascribable to the Cimbri.) - -sche (discuss) 00:48, 2 September 2018 (UTC)
Incidentally, google books:"Cimbrians" "Jutland" and related searches suggest that Cimbrian may be citable with this sense in English. - -sche (discuss) 00:52, 2 September 2018 (UTC)
Georges: "Adv. Cimbricē, zimbrisch, loqui, Ps. Quint. decl. 3, 13."
L&S: "Adv.: Cimbrĭcē, in the manner of the Cimbrians: loqui, Quint. Decl. 3, 13."
Similar in many other dictionaries (e.g. Scheller-Lünemann-Georges, Dutch Georges-Schneither, Freund, Frenchy Freund, English Freund-Riddle, English Freund-Andrews, Leverett, White). For the source ([Pseudo-]Quintilianus, Declamationes) compare w:Declamation#History and w:Quintilian#Works.
In an older edition from 1549 and in an edition from 1905 (US): "... an Cimbrice loquendum sit."
Here it's quoted without caps.
Another usage with should refer to the ancient German people: [89].
BTW: Some other usages of Cimbrica, Cimbricae, Cimbrici (Cimbricus): by Paul Fleming - 08:23, 2 September 2018 (UTC)
I've removed the original second sense, "in the manner or language of the Cimbrians, a Germanic people who inhabit northern Italy and speak a Bavarian language", and added a sense for the Cimbrian-Peninsula-related citations above. It's possible that if there aren't more citations, the senses should be merged, although if there were enough citations to keep them separate that would been useful. - -sche (discuss) 07:32, 12 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Antique Latin sense is now properly cited: Citations:Cimbrice#pertaining to the Cimbri.
  • [90]: "JÓTSKR, adj., Cimbricus, Danicus (Jótar): jótskir menn Cimbri, Ý. 35. [cp. jyde and it's etymology]. The source also has "Cimbr. = Cimbrice." and uses it at least once (mis-OCR-ed as "Сітbr": [91]). It does at least hint that Cimbric- could refer the people of Jutland.
    That could also fit with the 1705 source (Hickesius). While gnog might be non-Norse-German in origin, it could be a borrowing from German (be it High or Low German), or alternatively Cimbric could be more northern Low German (as spoken in Northern Schleswig) or some unprecise umbrella-term. The 1620 source has Cimbric Tormaanet [= March], Faremaanet [= April], Schlachtemaanet [= November]. Other sources for the name for April: [92]: "alt Dänisch, Faremaanet", [93] "die Dänen Faremaanet", [94] which gives 2 sources for it, "Hadr. jurii nomenclator" and "Halthauss, in Cal." (Christianus Gottlob Haltausius, Calendarium medii aevi praecipue germanicum in quo [...], "Aprilis ... Cymbrice Faremaanet ... Dns Fabricius in Menolog. p. 144 ait: Faremanet ..." [95] ~> Jo. Albertus Fabricius, Menologium, sive Libellus de Mensibus, [...], "Danorum. ... 4. Aprilis Faremanet ..." [96]). So it could be from a language of the people of Jutland too.
  • Younger senses, if there are multiple senses (like maybe Jutlandish, Danish, Northern Low German), maybe should be merged, but it shouldn't be merged with the older sense.
- 20:54, 14 September 2018 (UTC)


Suzukaze-c 06:45, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

Does this suffice? google books:"ウォールフラワー"
‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 16:56, 4 September 2018 (UTC)


Only 67 hits on Google. Is this really attested? I've only heard this term when people talk about "frida" and "fridujo". Robin van der Vliet (talk) (contribs) 10:27, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

I've added the one cite I could find on Google Books.--Prosfilaes (talk) 21:38, 7 September 2018 (UTC)
It is obviously in use, with dozens of non-durable attestations on Google. However, I'm not sure that the few PDFs of periodicals that I saw qualify as "durable". ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 10:03, 24 September 2018 (UTC)
@Lingo Bingo Dingo, have you looked to see if they're archived at the Austrian National Library? פֿינצטערניש (talk) 09:40, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
Good call, at least one result was archived there, so this has now been cited. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 12:30, 16 February 2019 (UTC)

dame d'attendre[edit]

@Amgine Where did you find this? Sounds very wrong. Per utramque cavernam 09:51, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

As a French collocation it is ungrammatical. French terms for lady-in-waiting are dame (or demoiselle) de compagnie, or, historically, dame/demoiselle d’honneur.  --Lambiam 12:35, 3 September 2018 (UTC)
@Lambiam: Yes. I suspect it's used in English texts only (if it's used at all), as double entendre. Per utramque cavernam 12:36, 3 September 2018 (UTC)


and especially the given diminutive Gott-Objektchen. -Lamanapa (talk) 02:16, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

The German Wikiwörterbuch Wikipedia has an article Gottobjekt. The word is easily attestable in this spelling. No Gottobjektchen were spotted.  --Lambiam 08:41, 6 September 2018 (UTC)
"German Wikiwörterbuch" entry Gottobjekt doesn't exist. Neither Wikipedia and Wiktionary nor usages of Gottobjekt do attest Gott-Objekt or Gott-Objektchen. With Google Books, Gottobjekt is only barely attestably, if it's attestable at all. -Lamanapa (talk) 17:12, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

実相 -- Jitsusō reading[edit]

An anon has apparently been going through ENAMDICT and adding entries here. ENAMDICT is available via Jim Breen's WWWJDIC, which is a decent source, but I'm not sure of the data provenance.

Can anyone confirm that this reading Jitsusō actually exists in the wild? Outside of ENAMDICT and one other online JA-JA name dictionary, I can only find the expected Jissō. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 19:47, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

Here are four online dictionaries giving the romanization Jitsusou (next to Jissou): [97], [98], [99], [100]. Not exactly in the wild, though.  --Lambiam 00:27, 11 September 2018 (UTC)
Thank you for the legwork. It looks like this might be a dictionary-only reading. Going through the links,
  1. Jisho.org is notable for its unreliability, and lists JMnedict among its sources, which I understand sources from ENAMDICT, the same as Breen's website.
  2. The entry at Weblio for the Jitsusō reading is also from JMnedict, which I understand sources from ENAMDICT, the same as Breen's website.
  3. Kanshūdō doesn't have any source information.
  4. Oriental Outpost sources from EDICT, whence also ENAMDICT.
Curious if anyone bumps into someone with this name. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 01:07, 11 September 2018 (UTC)
I get several Californian hits for different but apparently related people with the middle name “Jitsuso” combined with the surname “Yamada”.  --Lambiam 08:41, 12 September 2018 (UTC)
Thank you, that's useful suggestive evidence, but we're lacking any kanji in these cases, so it's hard to confirm if this reading matches this spelling. Unfortunately, expanding the search to include the kanji results in zero hits. :(
An interesting possibility is that this is an instance of "Ellis Island-ic", where a name has undergone transformation during the process of immigration to the US. In older kana orthographies, the small "tsu" character used to indicate geminate consonants (as in the expected kana spelling じっそう (jissō) for this kanji compound) was not always written smaller. I wonder if it was reinterpreted as regular (tsu) instead, but perhaps only outside of Japan? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 16:07, 12 September 2018 (UTC)


Rfv-sense "humanoid [...]". —Suzukaze-c 03:55, 18 September 2018 (UTC)


Same as above. —Suzukaze-c 03:55, 18 September 2018 (UTC)


Rfv-sense of "a singer who sings in Esperanto but doesn't speak Esperanto". I have never heard this word used like this before. Robin van der Vliet (talk) (contribs) 14:00, 23 September 2018 (UTC)

I decided to look in the page history and see who added this sense, and I was surprised to discover that it was me! I guess I must have had some reason to think it existed, but I have no memory of adding it or ever encountering this sense before. A few minutes of searching just now only turned up results about birds, but a more thorough search might be able to find something. —Granger (talk · contribs) 15:12, 23 September 2018 (UTC)
I found this Wikipedia article and it is also listed in a terminology of Bertilo. But is it really attested or is this an invention of Bertilo? Robin van der Vliet (talk) (contribs) 16:52, 23 September 2018 (UTC)


This "combining form" is only found in one word (xochihcualli), and it's not clear that it should be divided into xochih-cualli rather than xoch-ihcualli. --Lvovmauro (talk) 11:09, 26 September 2018 (UTC)

The mentioned entry at xochihcualli gives cualli as "something good" and offers tlacualli as a comparison. However, the latter entry's etymology, itself a bit of a mess, derives cualli as cua (to eat) + -lli (presumably a nominalizing suffix, though we have no entry for this). Meanwhile, the etym at derived term xochihcualcuahuitl (edible fruit tree) glosses xochihcualli as "edible fruit"", apparently corroborating the "eat" sense underlying cualli.
I know very little about Nahuatl, but simply applying logic to what we have with these entries suggests that what we have is a dog's breakfast in need of cleanup. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 16:00, 26 September 2018 (UTC)


Google only gives three results: us, this report (if anyone can find the places the word occurs, I'd be happy to review/translate the context), and some "loginella.com" thing. I also tried searching on some libraries.__Gamren (talk) 19:56, 26 September 2018 (UTC)



Tagged with "Unsourced and possibly unattested material." but not listed. SURJECTION ·talk·contr·log· 18:44, 28 September 2018 (UTC)

If the first name is Uzbek, it should be spelled Şahlo, as in the name of the Uzbeki singer Şahlo Salayeva.
Unlike in Yañalif, the proper Uzbek spelling is indeed “Shahlo”. Some examples: Shahlo Ahmedova, Shahlo Rustamova, Shahlo Turdikulova.  --Lambiam 19:38, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
The Azeri Wikpedia lists several women whose given name is Şəhla: Şəhla Əliqızı, Şəhla Bürcəliyeva, Şəhla Nəzərova, Şəhla Səmədova (professor).  --Lambiam 08:04, 8 October 2018 (UTC)


Rfv-sense: Hakka "to do". This is an extremely rare character in Chinese. I doubt that such a common word in Hakka would use this character. I suspect that it should be , as seen in 漢語方言大詞典, sense 13: <动> 弄;做。客话。广东惠州。 — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 19:36, 28 September 2018 (UTC)


Spanish, obsolete spelling of alféizar. Ultimateria (talk) 00:33, 29 September 2018 (UTC)

Never spelled like this. Delete. —Stephen (Talk) 06:10, 29 September 2018 (UTC)


i kind of botchd it. reverted my own edits. Can someone fix the template. it's showing disiplinaha which is not a conjugation of Tagalog. 10:47, 29 September 2018 (UTC)

I don't understand what you are saying. disiplinaha is not marked as Tagalog, it is marked as Cebuano. What template are you referring to? —Stephen (Talk) 08:16, 30 September 2018 (UTC)
I think this about the conjugation of disiplinahin. The request is not really an rfv.  --Lambiam 03:12, 1 October 2018 (UTC)
I mean the inflection table on disiplinahin. 07:55, 3 October 2018 (UTC)
Regarding the inflection table, the form ending with -a (or -ha) is a dialectal form (you should watch out for the notes about each inflection if you are working on Tagalog verbs). I am a native speaker of Tagalog, but I haven't heard of it. That inflection is of Tagalog dialects that preserved archaic forms, most notably the Marinduque dialect. And again, this is not clearly about the Tagalog, and it is not for verification. --TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 21:59, 7 October 2018 (UTC)

tlâtòlli etc.[edit]

I don't know any system of writing any variety of Nahuatl with diacritics like this. Under Carochi's system (which is only used with Classical Nahuatl) this is word is spelled tlàtōlli. This dictionary doesn't use any diacritics, and spells this word tlahtoli (note the single l).

The same applies to these words:

--Lvovmauro (talk) 07:26, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

October 2018[edit]


Rfv-sense: electric bicycle. E-bikes are usually called 電動單車电动单车 or 電動車电动车 (diàndòngchē). — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 22:03, 2 October 2018 (UTC)


I don't know where the guy who defined the word got that definition. everyone in the philippines know that a dilawan is a supporter of the previous administration. must be misleading people. the creator must be ignorant or a dilawan himself. for etymology the word is from dilaw (yellow} the color of the previous administration's party.—This unsigned comment was added by (talk).

I'm not confident enough in Tagalog to fix that entry, but I added an English one. --Lvovmauro (talk) 09:42, 3 October 2018 (UTC)
Bad definition. Fixed. —Stephen (Talk) 02:25, 4 October 2018 (UTC)
I created the entry and I got the definition by analyzing its use in quotes from Google Books. But for the IP who placed the entry here, it is also bad to attack someone who created it personally. Calling me "ignorant" is considered a personal attack, but if you are correct that "dilawan" is a member of the opposition, I agree.--TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 20:27, 7 October 2018 (UTC)
Does it actually mean "anyone of the opposition"? Or do supporters of Duterte call their opponents "dilawan" because they're accusing them of being liberals/supporting Aquino/etc? Like, Muslims get accused of being terrorists a lot, that doesn't mean the word "terrorist" now has "Muslim" as a definition. --Lvovmauro (talk) 02:29, 8 October 2018 (UTC)

confirmed dilawan. did you see him change the definition. dilawans have reached wiktionary.—This unsigned comment was added by (talk).

@ Please stop that politically polarized statements. This is not a way to channel politicized statements, and remember to be civil (please read your talk page first). I changed it out of agreement with Lvovmauro. I just responded to that comment, and calling me "dilawan" is an outright personal attack. --TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 18:29, 13 October 2018 (UTC)


Dutch for "toeboard". It seems to be very rare. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 13:27, 10 October 2018 (UTC)

aksen aku[edit]

Created by @Kc kennylau, and existence doubted by Javanese native speaker @Wirjadisastra. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 18:16, 11 October 2018 (UTC)


This is not found in the cited dictionary. --Lvovmauro (talk) 05:39, 12 October 2018 (UTC)

Created by User:Marrovi. This may be of interest to @-sche. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 19:17, 4 November 2018 (UTC)
I can't find anything supporting this form either; the only google hits are mirrors of us. (I do find support for our other entry, ötzintli̱ — at least, without the final underline, but with that "reverential diminutive suffix" — e.g. here.) - -sche (discuss) 21:52, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

Italian contributions by[edit]

I'm just going to put it out there – a large portion of these contributions and translations look like SoP to me and many don't even seem to be idiomatic. Can anyone chime in cause (talk) is currently flooding Wiktionary with new but sketchy entries. --Robbie SWE (talk) 18:26, 12 October 2018 (UTC)

It concerns an IP range, actually: Special:Contributions/ Many of the added entries surely seem SOP. SURJECTION ·talk·contr·log· 20:03, 13 October 2018 (UTC)


Rfv-sense "kanji: mango", and possibly related content under 檨#Readings. —Suzukaze-c 02:37, 18 October 2018 (UTC)

If I understand this blogger correctly, they think 檨仔 is specifically Taiwanese. And this news article on Taiwanese mangos also uses that character combination; the character is not used stand-alone. This lends support to the hypothesis that in Japanese this character does not have the sense “mango”.  --Lambiam 09:45, 19 October 2018 (UTC)


(Indonesian term) - The Indonesian Wikipedia link doesn't use the term. SemperBlotto (talk) 13:40, 18 October 2018 (UTC)

Some web pages in Malay using the term in their titles: [101], [102], [103]. I don’t know if these pages are specifically in Indonesian Malay.  --Lambiam 09:52, 19 October 2018 (UTC)
Those first two links are written in Indonesian. The first link use Indonesian cyber guidance. The second link is a online mass media in Cirebon, Indonesia. --Xbypass (talk) 16:55, 22 October 2018 (UTC)
This article using the term is from CNN Indonesia. And this FAQ in Indonesian also mentions mecin / micin as alternative names for MSG.  --Lambiam 10:03, 19 October 2018 (UTC)
Those links are written in Indonesian. --Xbypass (talk) 16:55, 22 October 2018 (UTC)


I see this as a Spanish loan from orgullo, but I wonder if it exists in Tagalog. Some stubborn IP adding words from the Tagalog Pinoy Dictionary added this word without even thinking if it is used, such as in cites. -TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 14:22, 18 October 2018 (UTC)

I already found one cite of its usage in Tagalog, and it is a very obvious loanword from Spanish. --TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 02:06, 20 October 2018 (UTC)


Need to verify all its senses. Some IP is trying to redefine this using the one in the Tagalog Pinoy Dictionary, where copying definitions from it constitutes a copyright violation. -TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 14:35, 18 October 2018 (UTC)


Galician for "cheese". SURJECTION ·talk·contr·log· 18:51, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

@Surjection: Why do you doubt it? I see that there is already a reference to a dictionary in the entry, and Galician is an LDL, so that should suffice. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 17:11, 26 October 2018 (UTC)
There was no dictionary ref when I added the RFV; besides most I could find stated the meaning as closer to "cheese mold, cheese form" than just "cheese". SURJECTION ·talk·contr·log· 17:35, 26 October 2018 (UTC)


Per Wiktionary:Tea room/2018/October § French lume?. Per utramque cavernam 21:20, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

@PierreAbbat Per utramque cavernam 21:20, 26 October 2018 (UTC)
What is the provenance of the current example sentence? DTLHS (talk) 21:21, 26 October 2018 (UTC)
"By the light of the moon, ...lend me your lamp to write a word" --makes no sense if the writer already has the light of the moon to also require the light of a lamp to write with...Leasnam (talk) 21:36, 26 October 2018 (UTC)
I think I saw it here: http://www.toujourspret.com/techniques/expression/chants/A/au_clair_de_la_lune.php . I remember seeing "mot tombé en désuétude" in the explanation; this phrase is also found in https://www.culture-libre.org/wiki/Au_clair_de_la_lune . PierreAbbat (talk) 05:46, 27 October 2018 (UTC)
The text I know has plume, but I must say that lume makes much more sense in the context. Further on, the lyrics tell us that one could see only a little (ne qu’un peu) by the light of the moon, so asking for a light to write a letter makes sense to me.  --Lambiam 10:54, 27 October 2018 (UTC)
That said, I have not found any concrete evidence that lume has ever been a word of the French lexicon.  --Lambiam 09:20, 28 October 2018 (UTC)
It's a word in Middle French, but not in modern French, I think. The usual version of Au clair de la lune uses plume. lume has been imagined by some people in order to make more sense, but fr.wikipedia explains that both versions would make sense. And this song seems to have been written after 1700, thus in the modern French period. No use in modern French found. Lmaltier (talk) 21:46, 15 November 2018 (UTC)


Rfv-sense: (Teochew) eyeball. Is this used outside of 目睭? — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 22:01, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

jouer avec ses armes[edit]

Not an idiom in French, as far as I know, so I'd like some proof that it's lexicalised. Uses like this are few and far between, and nothing else than literary fancies, imo. Per utramque cavernam 17:59, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

I see enough Google book hits plus many more Google news hits to sustain the idea that this is idiomatic. It would appear that the verb is extracted from an idiomatic phrase or saying chacun joue avec ses armes.  --Lambiam 08:24, 28 October 2018 (UTC)

I think it's clearly lexicalized. Lmaltier (talk) 21:32, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

November 2018[edit]


I think this word is a mistake.

  1. ocelotl + oquichtli should produce *ocelooquichtli. Nahuatl normally retains double vowels, it doesn't simplify them.
  2. The actual attested form is not oceloquichtli, it's actually moceloquichtli (as in the Carochi quote), and it's always vocative.

A better explanation is that it comes from mocel (you alone) + oquichtli. (@Aearthrise) --Lvovmauro (talk) 01:04, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

@Lvovmauro: 1 2 3 4 Aearthrise (talk) 12:15, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
I'm aware of those sources and I think they are wrong for the reasons stated above. The headword doesn't even match the quotations.
Here is a source that takes an opposing view. --Lvovmauro (talk) 12:29, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
@Lvovmauro: I understand your view. For moceloquichtli, I've found translations of unique man, noble man, and jaguar man- the same as oceloquichtli. Moceloquichtli appears to be a more accurate rendition of oceloquichtli. There have been various scholars who have taken ocelotl + oquichtli "oceloquichtli" to be used as the vocative form "moceloquichtle", such as Second Language Studies Professor Michael McCafferty who teaches Classical Nahuatl. There only exist two attested varieties that I can find in text, moceloquichtle and it's plural moceloquichtine. Aearthrise (talk) 13:39, 5 November 2018 (UTC)


Seems suspicious. (Entry's author's source was German Wiktionary which gave German Wikipedia as source which didn't give any source for this and as most prominent source gave the English urbandictionary.com .) -- 21:30, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

I linked it to OMG as the main article and added quotes there. --Lvovmauro (talk) 00:00, 7 November 2018 (UTC)
That are quotes for OMG, not for omg. -- 04:35, 7 November 2018 (UTC)


Rfv-sense "(~幕府) (historical) Tokugawa shogunate". Can 德川 really be used by itself in this way? —Suzukaze-c 21:44, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

Here's a quote where I suppose you could say 德川 is short for 德川幕府:
德川的和平盛世與儒學的興起,大大改變軍事思想及其運用。[104] In fact, that quote is from a book titled 易學對德川日本的影響, and you could argue that 德川 in the title is also short for "Tokugawa shogunate". It certainly doesn't refer to a Korean city or the generic surname Tokugawa. Richwarm88 (talk) 00:10, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
See [105] for more examples, like in the sentence 第一阶段是德川初期(1603—1691)。 The time period makes it clear that 德川 refers to the shogunate, not any specific person.  --Lambiam 13:45, 11 November 2018 (UTC)


The sense of "stoke" seems imprecise at best; the meaning I understand is "to heat a closed area." Can citations be gathered demonstrating a use of it to mean stoke? I could be wrong... פֿינצטערניש (talk) 12:07, 10 November 2018 (UTC)


Dutch, Rfv-sense of "salvo, reservation" (probably also "excuse"). Unfamiliar to me, not easily found on Google Books and not present in dictionaries, so RFVing just to be sure. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 12:42, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

mamni taká[edit]

It wouldn't surprise me if this spelling was used at some point, but I can't find evidence of it. --Lvovmauro (talk) 07:32, 17 November 2018 (UTC)

@Lo Ximiendo, what was your source? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 06:23, 29 November 2018 (UTC)


This does not appear in Oudnederlands Woordenboek, so is it attested or should it be a reconstruction? —Rua (mew) 12:42, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

The oldest I can find in the DBNL is from 1150 to 1200 so that's early Middle Dutch. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 10:41, 21 November 2018 (UTC)


As above. —Rua (mew) 12:43, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

Same as above, earliest hits in the DBNL are after 1150. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 10:48, 21 November 2018 (UTC)


As above. —Rua (mew) 21:12, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

Same as above, nothing before 1150. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 10:50, 21 November 2018 (UTC)


Rfv-sense "feces". Questioned by an anon, and I thought that it wouldn't be a bad idea to confirm that it's real. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 00:21, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

Everything I can find suggests that it is a German code word for coprophilia rather than for its material substance of erotic fascination. I think that in English the term caviar is used with the same meaning, a synonym of scat, etymology 2, sense #4.  --Lambiam 09:26, 20 November 2018 (UTC)
@Lambiam: Could you please add (or link to) cites that support such a sense in German (and in English)? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 18:45, 20 November 2018 (UTC)
German sources: [106], [107], [108]. I don’t see durably archived English sources, but uses are found at [109], [110] and [111].  --Lambiam 08:10, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
@Lambiam: Of your German cites, Google won't let me view one, and another does not seem to use it in running text. Could you please add the quotations to the entry under whatever sense they support? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 06:21, 29 November 2018 (UTC)
The preview GBS afforded me earlier evaporated on me too. I’ll have a look for other sources; I don’t know of a solid test though to determine whether media are “permanently” recorded.  --Lambiam 08:51, 30 November 2018 (UTC)
The first one doesn't show up for me either, but the other two do.
  • 2005, Volkmar Sigusch, Praktische Sexualmedizin. Eine Einführung. Mit 17 Tabellen, page 13, "Tab. 1: Akronyme in Kontaktanzeigen".
    KA / Kaviar (Koprophilie) / NK / Naturkaviar (Koprophilie)
    (please add an English translation of this quote)
  • 2005, Volkmar Sigusch, Praktische Sexualmedizin. Eine Einführung. Mit 17 Tabellen, page 64.
    Wenn schon im Fernsehen von Analverkehr die Rede war, dann musste er doch wenigstens von „Kaviar” und „Natursekt” sprechen, womit „in der Szene” Fäces und Urin bezeichnet werden.
    (please add an English translation of this quote)
  • 2005/2016, Jürgen Wolter, Sodomie. Die verdammte Sexualität. Zwischen Analverkehr und Tierkontakt, "Fröhliche Verrichtung! Faszination und Ekel".
    Es geht um Urin, Harn, Pisse, Wasser, Natursekt, um Kot, Stuhl, Scheiße, Dreck, Kaviar.
    (please add an English translation of this quote)
  • 2005/2016, Jürgen Wolter, Sodomie. Die verdammte Sexualität. Zwischen Analverkehr und Tierkontakt, "Es geht um die Wurst. Die Koprophilie".
    Wer von Kaviar träumt, denkt in aller Regel an den Gaumenschmaus rund um die kleinen Fischeier. Eine kleine Minderheit schnalzt beim Begriff Kaviar mit der Zunge und denkt an eine viel billigere, viel leichter zu beschaffende Delikatesse – an Kot. Kaviar für alle? Kein Problem, der After spuckt Tag für Tag reichliche Portionen dieser Köstlichkeit aus.
    (please add an English translation of this quote)
I'm not sure whether any of them should qualify as uses though, certainly the one in Sigusch' table and the one in Wolter's coprophilia section shouldn't. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 09:27, 30 November 2018 (UTC)
I saw these just now. I’ve added what I found earlier. I think the second occurrence in the long quote from Wolter (”Kaviar für alle?”) is a genuine use; I’ll add it too.  --Lambiam 18:56, 13 December 2018 (UTC)


(Italian compound form) Grammatically correct but I'm struggling to find any actual usage. SemperBlotto (talk) 10:41, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

The word siilo have the same use of the word mangialo and of the pages of conjugated forms of verbs and inflected/declinated forms of nouns and adjectives as completion of the related term pages. DelvecchioSimone12 5 96 (talk) 11:51, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
The terms siilo, mangialo, dillo, dimmelo, dammelo, dallo, fallo, fammelo and similar terms (both only when used with verbal meanings) in italian are formed using the same derivation rule. DelvecchioSimone12 5 96 (talk) 17:56, 24 November 2018 (UTC)


"Russian person" has to be capitalized. Non capitalized: type of bread (dialect from Podhale). Abraham (talk) 09:13, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

@Abraham: Perhaps slang and derogatory terms are not necessarily capitalised? In any case, you could use {{alternative case form of|pl|Moskal}}. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 23:23, 29 November 2018 (UTC)
@Atitarev: No. I have verified it in several dictionaries. Moskal only capitalized if about the person. Greetings. Abraham (talk) 08:37, 30 November 2018 (UTC)
@Abraham: OK, thanks. I see that occasionally it's in lower case in Google books but that's uncommon. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 08:42, 30 November 2018 (UTC)


What even is this? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 23:22, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

Ut desint virids, tamen est audenda voluptas.  --Lambiam 18:42, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
It occurs in English (en) - but might also be Translingual (mul) -, for eg.:
Those are merely obvious typos. See, for example, Bufo viridis. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 23:00, 4 December 2018 (UTC)


Rfv-sense for the specific epithet. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 23:31, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

Aspelta psitta is a rotifer, and Psittocythere psitta is a crayfish. Either is specifically not a parrot.  --Lambiam 15:20, 24 November 2018 (UTC)
I expect that there is some parrot-like feature of the organisms with that epithet. I can usually find images that support that kind of thing. DCDuring (talk) 02:40, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

konstrui kastelojn en aero[edit]

Esperanto. I can only find one attestation for this. In Zamenhof's Proverbaro, but seldom used. @Mx. Granger ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 11:57, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

I can't find anything besides the Proverbaro and the citation in the entry. —Granger (talk · contribs) 00:01, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
I found two examples with the definite article, but not sure if they count for the same entry. פֿינצטערניש (talk) 13:04, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
@פֿינצטערניש Opinions differ, but I prefer slightly inconsistent citations over no entry at all. So I'm inclined to say this passes, though perhaps the entry should be moved. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 14:10, 28 November 2018 (UTC)


Created by @Embryomystic in 2010. I'm no coffee drinker, and the word looks believable, but almost nothing turns up online. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 06:16, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

It looks like a loan of Russian кофеник.  --Lambiam 11:30, 29 November 2018 (UTC)
Uriel Weinreich, Modern English-Yiddish Yiddish-English Dictionary, 1968 (1st ed.), page 356, has it, with the same gender. Yiddish is a LDL, right? ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 13:11, 29 November 2018 (UTC)
Also listed in a Yiddish-Russion dictionary.  --Lambiam 21:24, 29 November 2018 (UTC)
I didn't check my dictionaries, almost hoping that we wouldn't have this issue. I guess it'll pass RFV, but I worry that if I ask an academic Yiddishist, I'll learn that Weinreich coined it. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 23:02, 29 November 2018 (UTC)
The Russian term is кофе́йник (koféjnik), кафени́к (kafeník) is Bulgarian.
Is it possible that there are other Yiddish spellings, and קאַוועניק(kavenik) is a normalised spelling or the term is mostly colloquial, seldom used in writing? --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 00:01, 30 November 2018 (UTC)


Volapük for despotically. —Granger (talk · contribs) 04:08, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

Nothing found on WS. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 08:15, 30 November 2018 (UTC)
It's simply the regular adverbial form of the adjective "däspotik", so nothing wrong with it. Nüm bal (talk) 20:08, 29 December 2018 (UTC)

December 2018[edit]

ir (iuwēr, iu, iuwih)[edit]

as polite form which needs one of these plural forms with singular meaning. --Berliner 586 (talk) 15:16, 2 December 2018 (UTC)

Wright's Primer, which is the only grammar of OHG I own, makes no mention of a T-V distinction. @Mnemosientje, perhaps? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 23:58, 5 January 2019 (UTC)
@Metaknowledge, Berliner 586 From a quick Google, one Johannes Helmbrecht mentions on page 318 of Competing Motivations in Grammar and Usage (OUP 2014) that "the first attestation of the use of 2PL pronouns as a polite form of 2SG address can be found in the Old High German (OHG) period around the ninth century. This use became more and more regular in the Middle High German (MHG) period." In another source, Diachronic Perspectives on Address Term Systems (Taavitsainen & Jucker 2003, pp 88-89, it's on libgen), it is mentioned that there are very few attestations for reasons of genre: in the literary genres that have survived the test of time, this usage was not standard. The attestations, a handful in number, are all either nominative (ir) or dative (iu) plural. But we don't have entries for those yet, so I can't add them anywhere right now. TLDR: This usage clearly existed, but cites for the genitive and accusative plural specifically don't exist. — Mnemosientje (t · c) 14:15, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
Diachronic Perspectives on Address Term Systems gives two sources: "letter to Bishop Salomo of Constance which accompanies the biblical epos by Otfried of Weissenburg" having ir, iu and "Altdeutsche (or Pariser) Gespräche" having ger. Für eine grammatische Kategorie ... mentions the same. Competing Motivations in Grammar and Usage, You und thou. -- 15:32, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
Yes, as I noted above the attestations are only nominative and dative plural. Since we only have entries for the genitive and accusative plural, for which this polite usage is not attested, I concluded that while it exists, the attestations cannot be added as citations to any entry we have now. — Mnemosientje (t · c) 15:35, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
RFV passed: I have added a usage note to du and created the plural pronoun entry ir, where I added the same note and a citation which attests the polite usage. — Mnemosientje (t · c) 11:44, 13 February 2019 (UTC)


Rfv-sense  (ジャン) (jan, mahjong). —Suzukaze-c 04:20, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

It is clear that 雀(ジャン) is used to derive terms related to mahjong, such as 雀荘 (ジャンそう) (jansō) and 雀卓 (ジャンたく) (jantaku) while 雀(ジャン) is not meaning mahjong. It is not a noun. --Naggy Nagumo (talk) 11:39, 3 December 2018 (UTC)


Rfv-sense: (Cantonese) paternal aunt (father's elder sister). The spelling could also be 大姑姐. See the talk page for a discussion. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 07:54, 3 December 2018 (UTC)


Non-native Chinese script, needs to be cited. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 08:56, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

I've added four quotations, with more available on Google Books. When searching, I noticed that the form App seems to be more common, so maybe that should be the main entry with APP as an alternative form. —Granger (talk · contribs) 11:25, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
Providing examples of "APP" used in Chinese texts does not address the issue raised by Wyang, who deleted the Chinese section of the entry for APP. In giving his reasons for deleting, he asserted that when "APP" is used in a Chinese context, it's a case of English code mixing. Without a doubt, as a linguistically-sophisticated native speaker of Mandarin, he would have been very familiar with the sort of usage in these examples. Richwarm88 (talk) 06:00, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
The word is used by native Chinese speakers in running Chinese text. The "code mixing" argument is implausible for multiple reasons – the word is used by Chinese speakers who don't speak English, it's written differently from the English word it's borrowed from, its pronunciation bears no resemblance to that of the English word it's borrowed from, and so on. I'm guessing Wyang's opposition to the word has to do with the fact that it's written with Roman letters, but it's not the only Chinese word like that—many others can be found in Category:Chinese lemmas, including KTV, K歌, AA, T恤, SB, man, MB, and YY. At least one has passed RFV before: see Talk:man. —Granger (talk · contribs) 08:58, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
The word is used by native Chinese speakers in running Chinese text.
That's how code mixing works. Do you know much about code mixing?
it's written differently from the English word it's borrowed from,
It can be superficially different (APP or App), or identical (app) as in "了解如何发布您的app,..."
its pronunciation bears no resemblance to that of the English word it's borrowed from, and so on.
It's sometimes pronounced the same way as English, as in this video clip [112] and often it's spelled out letter by letter. Either way, I would suggest it's the same word.
I'm guessing Wyang's opposition to the word has to do with the fact that it's written with Roman letters, [like other Chinese words such as ] KTV, K歌, AA, T恤, SB, man, MB, and YY.
You would be guessing wrong. Wyang is the person who created the Wiktionary entry for K歌, and he was involved in writing the entries for some of the other terms you mentioned, such as "SB".
If you imagine that Wyang is confusing code switching with the use of Chinese words like K歌 and SB that contain Roman letters, then I really don't think you have much appreciation of the wealth of knowledge he brought to Wiktionary. Richwarm88 (talk) 10:36, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
Even if it is an inadmissible case of code switching, the way of dealing with that is by nominating it at RFD, not by removing the Chinese entry in its entirety. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 12:10, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
I certainly don't mean to insult Wyang or to detract from their impressive contributions to Wiktionary; if any of my comments were interpreted that way I apologize. However, I disagree with them on the issue of the word APP, and I think deleting the entry would be an unfortunate loss for our readers. In any case, if anyone has an argument that the citations I added are inadequate in some way, I'm open to hearing it. —Granger (talk · contribs) 12:29, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
User:Wyang is not the only one who is frustrated about additions of terms written in Latin to languages, which don't use them. Some terms have already been verified and accepted but they are still not used in any printed dictionary outside Wiktionary, except maybe 卡拉OK (kǎlā'ōukèi). It feels like an original research. Remarkably, the terms in mixed or Roman scripts are either slang, abbreviations, technical jargon or brand name. What we need, in my opinion, is a language-specific CFI, regulating, what requirements should such terms meet and define clearly what code-switching is, what defines a word in Chinese with no word boundaries. These CFI are required not just for Chinese, so we don't have to prove, e.g. that "management" is not a Greek word but μάνατζμεντ (mánatzment) is. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 00:49, 8 December 2018 (UTC)
這個APP好玩 / 这个APP好玩  ―  Zhègè /æp/ hén hǎowán.  ―  (Singapore, Malaysia) This app is very fun.
那個APP / 那个APP  ―  Jiè wǒ wán nàgè /æp/.  ―  (Singapore, Malaysia) Lend me [your phone so I can] play that app.
I think these two examples can be considered as code-switching. KevinUp (talk) 16:26, 8 December 2018 (UTC)

For anyone who doesn't remember, btw, let me point out that Anatoli isn't making up a hypothetical, someone really entered management and marketing as Greek words: Wiktionary:Beer parlour/2017/September#Modern_Greek_terms_spelt_with_Latin_characters! And this has been an issue in Chinese for some time, with e.g. Talk:Thames河 in 2011: I was initially inclined to keep that one, but was won over by Eirikr's argument that it's not used as Chinese, but is code-switching, which seems obvious to me now (one can also spot e.g. "Волга河", "Volga河" and even "Wolga河" on Google). In English, Москва is citeable (Citations:Москва) but was deleted (Talk:Москва!), Citations:ἄρχων is citeable, etc.
This entry could be different because it's written and pronounced differently, unlike (apparently) iPhone, but how often are Latin-script words fond in Chinese capitalized? If it's often, then capitalization isn't much of an argument, though if KevinUp has heard it used in Chinese TV (which may be durably archived), that would be evidence in favour of it, unless there's a Chinese-script form that that could be taken to be. I don't know; for now I'm going to abstain on whether this should be kept or not, but wanted to provide those links. - -sche (discuss) 17:47, 8 December 2018 (UTC)
For what it's worth, I hear this word frequently here in Shenzhen, though of course those conversations aren't durably archived.
I admit that there is a line that has to be drawn somewhere between borrowings and foreign words being used in the middle of a sentence. For English we usually use italics to distinguish these, but for Chinese that's not an option. This broader issue is tricky to solve and I don't have a good proposal. But the term APP is widely used, including by people who don't speak English, and its spelling and pronunciation differ from the English word (the pronunciation differs significantly). Among people I talk to here in China, it seems to be the most common word for "app" by far. I think it clearly falls on the "borrowing" side of the line. (I'm arguing partly based on personal experience, which doesn't carry much weight here on Wiktionary, but since we have citations that haven't been seriously challenged, we're down to what DCDuring sometimes describes as "gum-flapping".) —Granger (talk · contribs) 00:31, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
I agree that APP#Chinese (pronounced ēi-pī-pī) seems to be the most common word for "app" used in mainland China, but most of our quotations are currently from Taiwan. Does anyone know whether the word is also pronounced ēi-pī-pī in Taiwan? I think that the quotations are fine, but in printed form no pronunciation data is available, and in future someone might create entries such as Swift#Chinese based on the same format, which isn't a good thing.
Meanwhile I found that the formal term used in mainland China seems to be 移動應用程序移动应用程序 while other regions may prefer terms such as 流動應用程式流动应用程式 (Hong Kong), 手機應用程式手机应用程式 (Taiwan), 手機應用程序手机应用程序 (Singapore/Malaysia).
As for the capitalization of Latin-script words in Chinese, this seems to be the convention used, as found in pages 1750-1755 of 现代汉语词典 (Xiandai Hanyu Cidian), 6th Edition. [113], which is an appendix for lemmas that begin with the Latin script. (西文字母开头的词语). This has expanded from a modest 39 entries in the 3rd edition (1996) to a whopping 239 entries in the 6th edition (2012). There are more in the 7th edition (2016) but I haven't checked yet. KevinUp (talk) 03:51, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
In Taiwan, it's probably more commonly pronounced as an approximation to English, something like [ɛp(ə) ~ æp(ə)] ([114] [115] [116] [117] [118] [119] [120]), but some people do pronounce it letter-by-letter ([121] [122] [123]). In Hong Kong, people usually say "app" as a full word (ep1) ([124] [125] [126] [127]), but I've heard some people say "apps" (eps1 or ep1 si2), even for one app ([128]). (This one has both.) — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 05:53, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
The information about usage in Taiwan, Hong Kong, and Singapore is interesting. My experience is almost entirely limited to mainland China. —Granger (talk · contribs) 11:45, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
I have no opinion for this issue for now. I just want to say that, I think, in China Mainland, the spell-out-letter-by-letter pronunciation and full capitalization written form is not confined to this word APP, based on my personal experience. It's common to hear .doc as diǎnr Dì-Ōu-Sēi, JPEG as Zhèi-Pì-Yì-Zh-yì(/ʈ͡ʂî/)~-Jì, GIF as Zh-yì(/ʈ͡ʂî/)-Aì-Aífu ~ Jì-, ugg as Yōu-Zh-yì(/ʈ͡ʂî/)-Zh-yì~-Jì-Jì. Dokurrat (talk) 01:20, 12 December 2018 (UTC)
 Like Dokurrat, I currently have no solid opinion on this issue. Here's a closer look at the problem from the perspective of the Mainland dictionaries: KTV 现代汉语词典7 p1764 & 现代汉语规范词典3 p1802;  K歌 现代汉语词典7 p1764, not present in 现代汉语规范词典3 on p1802; AA not present in 现代汉语词典7 or 现代汉语规范词典3 (but there is an 'AA制' in 现代汉语词典7 on p1761 & 现代汉语规范词典3 on p1800); T恤 not present in 现代汉语词典7 (but there is a 'T恤衫' in 现代汉语词典7 on p1765 & 现代汉语规范词典3 on p1803); SB not present in 现代汉语词典7 or 现代汉语规范词典3; man not present in 现代汉语词典7 or 现代汉语规范词典3; MB not present in 现代汉语词典7 or 现代汉语规范词典3; YY not present in 现代汉语词典7 or 现代汉语规范词典3. APP not present in 现代汉语词典7 or 现代汉语规范词典3. @KevinUp the entry for Wi-Fi includes lowercase letters- see 现代汉语词典7 p1766 (entry not present in 现代汉语规范词典3) --Geographyinitiative (talk) 11:35, 29 December 2018 (UTC)
I have just added a Chinese entry for Wi-Fi. The basis for my edit was the inclusion of this term in 现代汉语词典第7版 on page 1766- "【Wi-Fi】" --Geographyinitiative (talk) 11:47, 29 December 2018 (UTC)
@Geographyinitiative: Regarding Wi-Fi#Chinese, I don't think this entry should be created because (1) Its meaning is identical to English (2) The entry is listed in the appendix of 现代汉语词典 for the benefit of Chinese readers (e.g. the older generation who know no languages other than Mandarin or some other Chinese dialect) who might encounter this term in their daily lives, rather than international readers. After all, it is a monolingual dictionary meant for native speakers. (3) Most entries in Category:Chinese terms written in foreign scripts such as short#Chinese have definitions that are somewhat different from its original meaning in English, and we should probably use this as the main criteria for the creation of such entries. KevinUp (talk) 16:34, 29 December 2018 (UTC)
@KevinUp I removed the entry. I still believe that Wi-Fi is a Chinese language term. I don't accept the idea that only words which use Chinese characters are Chinese words. To me, the word Wi-Fi is as Chinese as pizza is American- albeit, pizza came from Italy. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 21:55, 29 December 2018 (UTC)

User:Wyang is continuing to remove the entry without having participated in this discussion, so I'll reiterate a few of the points I made above—the term "APP" with this capitalization is not used in English (at least not in my experience), and the English word "app" isn't pronounced anything like the Chinese word "APP". Moreover, "APP" is the most common Chinese word for "app" (at least in mainland China), and most importantly, the entry has four citations that have not been seriously challenged. I think it's clear that the term meets CFI. As a side note, deleting the entry would be a significant loss to our readers, because of the pronunciation information and because it is the most common Chinese word for "app". —Granger (talk · contribs) 01:15, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

I support Granger's position, i.e. that the Chinese entry should be restored, as per arguments and evidence supplied by Granger. --Dan Polansky (talk) 11:35, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
Do you speak Chinese? Why do you feel entitled to voice your uninformed opinion? Wyang (talk) 11:47, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
I have read the arguments and looked at the evidence in APP entry, the attesting quotations. I also read multiple code switching discussions in the English Wiktionary over the years. I believe my position is reasonably informed. --Dan Polansky (talk) 11:51, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
I wish learning a language was that easy! Wyang (talk) 11:52, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
That comment makes no sense. I know no Chinese. I see quotations that use APP, capitalized, in between Chinese characters. The APP is capitalized. Multiple people tell me there is a Chinese-specific pronunciation. The disagreement is about treatment approach, not about anything that requires knowledge of Chinese. --Dan Polansky (talk) 11:59, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
If you speak no Chinese, then why do you think you are qualified to teach native speakers of Chinese what is their language and what is not? Wyang (talk) 12:04, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
Above, Granger plays the ball, not the man. I can be convinced by arguments and evidence, not by attempts to disqualify people from discussion. --Dan Polansky (talk) 12:07, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
Have an idiom for you here: 自知之明. Wyang (talk) 12:14, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

Discussion closed. Wrong platform ― entry was English, not Chinese. The English word was already listed on Wiktionary:Requests for verification/English#APP and has been cited. Wyang (talk) 22:56, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

Why can't it be both English and Chinese? The distinction between /ˌeɪˌpiːˈpiː/ and /ˀeɪ̯⁵⁵ pʰi⁵⁵ pʰi⁵⁵/ is pretty clear to me. --Dine2016 (talk) 11:27, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
It can be any tone in Standard Chinese, and the most common are in the patterns of level-level-level, level-fall-fall, level-level-fall. Mostly the syllables do not fit any of the four tonal categories, i.e. usually mid level instead of high level, high falling instead of high-low falling, etc.: /ei˧ pʰi˧ pʰi˧/, /ei˧ pʰi˥ pʰi˥/, /ei˧ pʰi˧ pʰi˥/, /ei˧ pʰi˥ pʰi˥˧/, /ei˥ pʰi˥ pʰi˥˧/, /ei˥ pʰi˥˧ pʰi˥˧/, ... hardly ever is it pronounced in the four tones of Standard Chinese. This just shows it is far from being naturalised as a Chinese word phonetically. Any similar-length English word can be mixed like this and pronounced differently to how it is in English, e.g. SIM, gif, doc, jpeg, etc, ppt, Uber, ... it doesn't make them Chinese. Wyang (talk) 11:47, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
This discussion was opened for APP#Chinese entry, and therefore belongs to Wiktionary:Requests for verification/Non-English. --Dan Polansky (talk) 11:41, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
On a related note, there is now APP#English that has English sentences given as attesting quotes. Arguably, English APP is a borrowing from Chinese. --Dan Polansky (talk) 12:51, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
Closed. Wrong language: the word is in English not Chinese. The English word is already dealt with elsewhere and has been cited. And no, the English is not "a borrowing from Chinese"; it is simply non-native bastardisation of English. Wyang (talk) 13:00, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
Closing a discussion for allegedly procedural reasons when whether this should be documented as Chinese is the subject of the controversy is most inappropriate. --Dan Polansky (talk) 13:08, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
So is you voicing your uninformed opinion on a topic that you know nothing about. Wyang (talk) 13:10, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
In the above paragraph, I am voicing a procedural position. --Dan Polansky (talk) 13:11, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
A "procedural" position that "arguably, English APP is a borrowing from Chinese". Wyang (talk) 13:13, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
Let me make a non-procedural note. banjo is considered to be a Czech word, by me and at least one Czech dictionary. It has the same typographic form as in the language from which it was borrowed. There is also the alternative form benžo, which has the outwardly Czech appearance. In borrowing banjo, Czech did not change the meaning. I believe that borrowings within a script are not necessarily fundamentally different from borrowings between scripts. If someone proposed banjo for deletion as mere code switching, I would oppose. Another example is Czech design, which is left unmodified in Czech, but is adapted in Slovak as dizajn. These unmodified forms stand out as oddballs, crying "I am foreign" more than some other forms. But as foreign as they may appear, they are adopted as Czech into Czech speech and writing. --Dan Polansky (talk) 15:12, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
  • This is RFV and not RFD, so the entry is considered to pass if cites that meet CFI are added, which has occurred. Given the debate, however, I think it would be useful to record the positions expressed by various kinds of speakers (Note: I will count heritage as native for these purposes.) In this discussion, one native speaker (Wyang) and two non-native speakers (Atitarev, Richwarm88) support deletion of the Chinese entry. One native spesker (KevinUp), one non-native speaker (Mx. Granger), and one non-speaker (Dan Polansky) support keeping the Chinese entry. Two native speakers (Dokurrat, Geographyinitiative) and one non-speaker (-sche) abstain or have no opinion. I'd like to encourage @Justinrleung, Dine2016 to express a position, as they are native speakers and have contributed to the discussion without clearly opining. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 16:01, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
I have no opinion. For me it's fully nativized /ˀeɪ̯⁵⁵ pʰi⁵⁵ pʰi⁵⁵/ and a special layer of Chinese vocabulary (from a practical rather than linguistic viewpoint), but for one of my friends it's /æp/ and remains English. --Dine2016 (talk) 17:10, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
The pronunciation [ˀeɪ̯⁵⁵ pʰi⁵⁵ pʰi⁵⁵] is very rare; the vast majority of people use the non-phonemic mid-level (33) or mid-high-level (44) tone instead of high-level (55) when they pronounce APP letter by letter. A lot of other tones also arise, which are all non-phonemic in Standard Chinese. There is no single most common tone pattern or way to pronounce this English word:
[129]: /ei˧ pʰi˦ pʰi˦/, then /æpʰ/, then /ei˧ pʰi˧ pʰi˧/
[130]: /ei˧ pʰi˧ pʰi˧/
[131]: /æ˧ pʰi˧ pʰi˧/
[132]: /æpʰ/ ~ /ei˧ pʰi˥ pʰi˥/
[133]: /ei˦ pʰi˥˧ pʰi˥˧/
[134] (CCTV春晚): /ei˥ pʰi˥ pʰi˥˨/
[135]: /ei˥ pʰi˥˦ pʰi˥˨/
[136]: /ei˦ pʰi˦ pʰi˥˦/
[137]: /ei˧ pʰi˦ pʰi˥˧/
[138]: /ei˧ pʰi˦ pʰi˦/
[139]: /æ˧ pʰæ˧ pʰæ˧/ ~ /æi˧ pʰæi˧ pʰæi˧/
[140]: /apʰ/
[141]: /æpʰ/ ~ /æpʰu/
[142] (CCTV): /æ˥˩ pʰu˩/
[143]: /æpʰ/ ~ /apʰ/
Wyang (talk) 23:05, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
I assess that if the pronunciation varies it shows that the word has not been nativized: For is a word nativized, it is handed over from the mouth of one speaker to the other and hence settles on one (ideally) pronunciation, amirite? These transcriptions given indicate to me that it is a word that constantly encroaches from abroad, like the door is never closed. One wouldn’t hear this word either if one were oriented to the inland only. But this is of course phonocentrist. Sadly if a foreign word is found in some text there will always be someone who will claim it to belong to the language it is written in no matter the circumstances, there have recently been many dubious examples, without attaining a wholesome view.
I repeat here my suggestion to create “code-switching” templates that complement the quotation templates for terms being attested in texts in a different language, so at least the solutions are more manifold. This is what I’d do: Since we have an English entry for “APP” “common in China” we just put the Chinese quotes there but as collapsible “code-switching ▲” instead of “quotations ▲”. Then you shan’t give a bugger whether it is Chinese, since the pronunciation is as Wyang has demonstrated random anyhow (so no content for which a Chinese section is needed), or the pronunciation in code-switching is regularly ambiguous, there aren’t standards on how to pronounce something when it is yet in that limbo. While the past is hard to fix, a new format can be a resort that will be apt to catch the quarrelsome dubious cases, so one can appease more sides but still help in an inclusionist sense – the classification can be left out but the content still be there. Fay Freak (talk) 04:03, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
Thanks for the detailed answer. Is there a possibility that the Chinese have their own pronunciation norms of Latin letters developed from but parallel to that of English, resulting in for example German /tseː/ :: English /siː/ :: Mandarin /seɪ̯/ ~ /ɕi/ ~ … for C? Personally I would use /siː/ in an English context, but /seɪ̯/ in a Chinese context, so that in the sentence 「CD機的英文是『CD player』」 the first “CD” concatenates the Chinese letter names but the second uses English code mixing. Similarly, in 「點擊『Add JARs…』添加jar包」 the “jar包” is pronounced as Mandarin jiàbāo, but “Add JARs” uses code mixing. Also, in Chinese mode, the tone of “CD” in “CD機” and “這是一張CD” is the same, but in English mode, the tone of “CD” in “CD player” and “This is a CD.” is different due to different stressing. --Dine2016 (talk) 04:34, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
The question of code switching is an interesting one, née, fiancé and resumé were all French used in English until they were English, and there is no fixed point in time at which that happened. In the same way as the subject term, they contained characters which are not part of the adopting language. I don't know whether APP has entered Chinese enough to consider it Chinese, but that point is often very hard to discern, so absolutist arguments are not reasonable.
Beyond the subject at hand, I have not been impressed by the way Wyang has handled this, this is a collaborative project and reversions without communication are not helpful, nor are blunt dismissals of the opinions of others. - TheDaveRoss 20:46, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
I will first give a caveat that I am by no means a native speaker in the strict sense; I'm just a heritage speaker of Cantonese with a stronger command of Cantonese than your average heritage speaker (maybe near-native in some domains, but not quite when it comes to technical things). Also, Mandarin is definitely not my native language, so I can only speak to this issue with my knowledge as a near-native heritage speaker of (Hong Kong) Cantonese and my experiences as an advanced learner of Mandarin (leaning towards southern China and Taiwan).
I have already noted my observations on how APP is used in Taiwan and Hong Kong above. When it's read as A-P-P, I tend to think it's an innovation in Chinese and would regard it as a possible step towards nativization into Chinese. As a descriptivist, I would not want to label this as "bastardisation" as Wyang has done on several occasions.
Another point to consider is that even Chinese speakers with limited knowledge of English know and use this word. I remember that while I was visiting Guangdong on a guided tour last summer, the tour guide (who seemed to demonstrate a poor command of English but spoke Cantonese and Mandarin) used the word A-P-P (if I remember correctly, in the context of Cantonese, and nothing else was English). Its pervasiveness - as seen in its clearly widespread use - can attest to it being more than a nonce borrowing from English.
Phonologically, the realization of the tones seems to be unstable, but variation is bound to occur on recent innovations. On the details of these realizations, I'm not sure if my judgment of the tones would agree with Wyang; as a Cantonese speaker, I can definitely tell a mid-level tone (tone 3) from a high-level tone (tone 1), but I don't hear A-P-P read as a mid-level tone in any of the videos listed. I would very much like to know how the tones were determined. Another aspect of phonology to consider is that A-P-P is more phonotactically agreeable to Mandarin speakers (idea from a few of the responses to this Zhihu question on the word).
While I'm not necessarily putting all my eggs in one basket, I'd say I'm leaning towards keeping the Chinese entry given all the evidence. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 04:15, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
There is no such thing as 'Chinese' and there is no such thing as 'English'- there is only the different sets of commonly-used vocabulary used by people in different places and the artificial and highly political labels we put on them. In the minds of the vast majority of 'Chinese speakers' 'APP' (A-P-P) has got to be an English phrase, because all legitimate Chinese words can be written in Chinese characters.
I remember when I first encountered the term 'PPT' in Jiangsu province in 2013- the Chinese citizens who were my teachers were speaking English to the class and used the term 'PPT' (P-P-T) in English and assumed I knew what they were saying. Only later did I realize they were referring to a 'powerpoint' slide.
In my above posts, I used the 'authoritative' Mainland China dictionaries of Mandarin to show that 'Wi-Fi' is now used commonly in Chinese, but my edits were rejected by the community. I was told that although the most 'authoritative' Mainland China dictionaries include an entry for 'Wi-Fi', those entries were added for the conveience of elderly Chinese people and just because it appeared in a Chinese dictionary and is used widely by Chinese speakers in both oral and written Chinese settings, did not mean that it was really Chinese.
The word presentation is used by Chinese speakers every day. I tried to add something about that fact a few months back. I once asked my Chinese-native Chinese language teacher how to translate the word 'presentation' into Chinese, and she said she didn't know what a good Chinese translation would be. We went through several alternatives with no solution. She was a native Chinese speaker and a teacher.
What is a real Chinese word? The very concept of 'Chinese language' is political, is vague, is cultural. Who gets to decide these things? Are you going to use Western philosophical concepts about language to impose the word 'APP' on "Chinese" to the exclusion of the perspective of the millions who are using these words?
I think we should recognize that this can definitely be an emotional issue for Chinese speakers and find a way to tread lightly while being maximally informative to the readers of Wiktionary. I added usages notes on the APP page to attempt to help us find a way to do that. Is presentation Chinese? Yeah, if we were to use the standards used to add new loan words to English, presentation is definitely a new Chinese word. But we are not adding loan words to the English language- we are adding loan words to Chinese. There are different standards and feelings about what counts and what doesn't. It is natural and normal for people to have strong opinions on the issues. I think that Wyang's actions are laudable and valiant if viewed from a certain perspective. Do not violently impose Western notions of descriptivism on Chinese and totally ignore people's feelings. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 10:55, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
Friendly reminder that "violence" is me punching you in the face, and not somebody expressing opinions on a dictionary. Equinox 11:07, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

By the way, I think the existing Mandarin pronunciations of Chinese words with Latin letters, such as pì-sèi jī of PC機, should be temporarily removed as they are inaccurate. Once {{zh-pron}} is extended to support the format, we can present them as something like “PC”. Or we can do our own research and present them like man#Chinese. --Dine2016 (talk) 13:27, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

@Tooironic, Wyang, Justinrleung, Suzukaze-c, Dokurrat, Dine2016, Geographyinitiative, Mx. Granger I think we need to find a better way to deal with entries listed in Category:Chinese terms written in foreign scripts and other 外來語外来语 (wàiláiyǔ) that has retained its original script. I noticed that English snowclones such as "X is the new Y", "have X, will travel" are listed in a separate appendix. What are your thoughts on doing something similar for Chinese entries? We get to retain the etymology, pronunciation, etc. Perhaps {{zh-see}} can be used to redirect man#Chinese to something like Appendix:Chinese terms written in foreign scripts/man. KevinUp (talk) 04:14, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
I support the idea, though I would rather like it to be Appendix:Foreign words used in Chinese, as some don't consider app Chinese. On the other hand, this doesn't address partially-Latin words like PC機PC机 (pì-sèi jī) and initialisms within Chinese like MM (měiméi). --Dine2016 (talk) 04:27, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
I think partially Latin words can be included as well. The idea is to have a separate namespace for 外來語外来语 (wàiláiyǔ) that still retains part of its original script. This usually occurs for 學術名詞学术名词 (xuéshù míngcí) such as δ鍵δ键 (dé'ěrtǎ-jiàn)
I don't see the benefit to putting loanwords or Latin-script words in an appendix. Whatever we do, we should make sure that a reader who searches for a word like AA, C位, APP, or man is able to find the information about how the word is used in Chinese. —Granger (talk · contribs) 13:14, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
  • I am flattered to be pinged but I'm afraid I have very little to add to this debate. I respect every one of you who has contributed and I hope we can find a way to resolve this issue once and for all. ---> Tooironic (talk) 05:54, 31 January 2019 (UTC)


Volapük for castrated male cat. —Granger (talk · contribs) 12:44, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

Nothing found on Wikisource. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 13:38, 7 December 2018 (UTC)


Volapük for male rat. —Granger (talk · contribs) 12:53, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

No hits on Wikisource. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 07:56, 10 December 2018 (UTC)


Volapük for female rat. —Granger (talk · contribs) 12:55, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

If there ever is a need of a Volapük term for genderqueer rat, I propose birat.  --Lambiam 09:32, 8 December 2018 (UTC)
Wouldn't that be a queer (bisexual) rat? ;p - -sche (discuss) 00:52, 19 December 2018 (UTC)
No hits in Volapük on Wikisource. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 07:59, 10 December 2018 (UTC)


1. for the attributiv positiv forms, 2. for the superlativ, 3. for the comparativ (also compare: "The declined forms are virtually nonexistent"). --Berliner 586 (talk) 16:12, 8 December 2018 (UTC)

Inflected forms don't need citations. 2602:252:D2B:3AA0:481C:6D09:5353:57AA 16:14, 8 December 2018 (UTC)

Then how should we handle the case when someone modifies the headword line for the adverb not from “not (not comparable)” to “not (comparative notter, superlative nottest)”, claiming that these forms, although rare, do exist? Or when someone claims that the plural of differential calculus is differential calculera? Shouldn’t we ask for some evidence?  --Lambiam 10:11, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
Of course we should ask for some evidence and the IP is wrong. While it's often not necessary (and even not possible) to attest all inflected forms, it can be necessary to attest the way of inflection. -11:12, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
Right. If there's reason to think a word doesn't inflect or (in the case of e.g. Latin) inflects only in one declension pattern (set of endings) and not another, one can ask for verification. "Inflected forms don't need citations" is for if e.g. the masculine singular dative mixed declension form of mitternachtsblau is found to have only two — or even zero — Google Books hits, but enough other inflected forms are attested to confirm that mitternachtsblau does indeed inflect: in that case it's not like we're going to create a one-off inflection table for use in mitternachtsblau that has a gap in that one slot, or redefine mitternachtsblauen to say "masculine singular strong genitive and accusative, weak genitive, dative and accusative, and mixed genitive and accusative but not dative, and feminine weak genitive and dative, and mixed...".
In this case, it seems like the word doesn't inflect, at least not often enough to include (I found only one citation of tabuer, Citations:tabu). - -sche (discuss) 00:24, 10 December 2018 (UTC)
I went ahead and removed the declension table, so no wayward bot would create the "missing" forms, as they do indeed seem unattested (though we could certainly leave this open for the full month). - -sche (discuss) 00:50, 19 December 2018 (UTC)


It it a valid Acadian spelling? If not, it should be deleted, because it's an uncommon misspelling in standard French. Per utramque cavernam 19:02, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

It is listed at the French Wiktionnaire. There are many GBS hits, but the ones I checked were scannos or else more likely misspellings than honest attestations.  --Lambiam 21:37, 10 December 2018 (UTC)
As a Picard word, not a French word. Same: I've found some scannos, maybe a few misspellings, but no genuine attestations. Per utramque cavernam 21:47, 24 December 2018 (UTC)


Spanish, noun sense "townhouse". I see a small handful of cites that are true nouns, but none that really indicate what type of building it is. Ultimateria (talk) 04:05, 12 December 2018 (UTC)

The Diccionario de la lengua española, entry adosado, -da states specifically that the adjective is also used as a masculine noun, but is mum about feminine use. In any case, as an adjective, used in a combination like casa adosada, it refers to a row house, one of several identical houses attached to each other at the sides. Used as a noun, provided it refers to a building and not something entirely different, it can hardly mean something else, given how language works. The Diccionario also states that the adjective is especially applied to a chalé, but one (or at least I) wouldn’t consider a typical townhouse a cottage or chalet. An image search for chalé adosado shows plenty of rows of townhouses, though.  --Lambiam 10:41, 12 December 2018 (UTC)
From French adosser (dos): to back up against. —Stephen (Talk) 11:22, 12 December 2018 (UTC)


Spanish, "a mosquito of the genus Aedes". In the cites I see, it's simply the Translingual name, in caps and italics as it should be. Ultimateria (talk) 04:11, 12 December 2018 (UTC)

The Spanish is incorrect. Should be the Translingual name. The Spanish was added by Special:Contributions/Turnedlessef, who was blocked for adding gibberish. —Stephen (Talk) 11:35, 12 December 2018 (UTC)
No, Turnedlessef was blocked because he was Wonderfool. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 02:48, 15 December 2018 (UTC)


Rfv-sense: adjective "good faith". — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 23:02, 12 December 2018 (UTC)

gefährlich wird es, wenn die Dummen fleißig werden[edit]

German. It seems to be more often mentioned than used. The non-literal definition is potentially too narrow. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 14:56, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

The “literal” translation is already not very literal. My attempt: “It gets dangerous when dumb people begin to work hard.” What a weird interpretation, though, not just narrow. I think the aphorism is actually meant to be taken rather literally. I see it often attributed to Erich Kästner, but never with a concrete source, so this may be another made-up attribution that is blindly copied. In any case, I don’t think we have even a single one of the over 200 aphorisms by GBS; why should we have this one?  --Lambiam 18:58, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
True, or "when the dumb become industrious". I agree about aphorisms; it can always be RFD'd if the RFV passes. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 08:31, 17 December 2018 (UTC)


Which of these Lezgi spellings are actually attested, and which are made up? @Vahagn Petrosyan, AtitarevΜετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 06:14, 15 December 2018 (UTC)

@Metaknowledge: I have moved it to тӏархьун (ṭarxun). Lezgi is poorly documented, so they shouldn't follow the same verification rules. The lower case palochka ӏ is rarely used in print. The form тIархьун (tIarxun) with the upper case Latin "I" instead of the palochka can be found in "Русско-лезгинский словарь" (Russian-Lezgi dictionary) here. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 08:04, 15 December 2018 (UTC)
@Metaknowledge: I can attest the modern Cyrillic and the older Cyrillic spellings, but I do not have resources on the other periods of Lezgi. --Vahag (talk) 11:15, 15 December 2018 (UTC)
Thanks to both of you. Anatoli, I agree that we can use a different character for the palochka and still consider that attested, but I don't think we should keep an Arabic-script entry if it isn't in a dictionary somewhere or otherwise attested. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 17:12, 15 December 2018 (UTC)
I believe that тӏархьун (ṭarxun) is incorrect, and it should be moved back to тIархьун (tIarxun). The "lowercase palochka" was invented by Unicode, because they didn't like the idea of having an "uppercase" character with no corresponding lowercase. Really the "uppercase" palochka is caseless, and the "lowercase" is not actually used in the orthography of any language. --Lvovmauro (talk) 00:28, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
@Lvovmauro: So, you're suggesting moving back to тIархьун (tIarxun) with the Latin letter I ("i") because you don't like the use of the lower case palochka? It doesn't even transliterate correctly because it's the wrong alphabet. The upper case palochka is Ӏ. You must mean moving to тӀархьун (ṭarxun). --02:51, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
ϕ ... ɸ ... φ ... Φ ... ϕ ... ... ... ... ... ... ... oops! I mean fie on all these confusing Unicode variants! Chuck Entz (talk) 03:36, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
I thought I checked that, but yes, I meant тӀархьун (ṭarxun). --Lvovmauro (talk) 06:31, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
It has been generally agreed on, in my observation, to use the standard spellings - i.e. using lower and upper case palochkas based on capitalisation rules, even if that's not widely used and spellings can't be verified using these glyphs. E.g. if a Chechen sentence starts with ӏаса (ʿasa, stick) (lower case ӏ), then it should spell with a capital palochka: Ӏаса (ʿasa, stick) (upper case Ӏ). It applies not only to the lower case but to the upper case palochka (formerly generic and the only oen available). The problem with the languages using palochka is that it's hard to verify anything. They don't have very high level of digitisation and Internet penetration. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 08:35, 17 December 2018 (UTC)
Lezgi is not Chechen, so they may have different orthographic rules. Can a Lezgi word even start with Ӏ?  --Lambiam 09:49, 19 December 2018 (UTC)
@Lambiam: Sorry to take a long time to get back. The distinction between capital and lower case various uses. It doesn't matter if words don't start with some letters in some languages. E.g. Russian words never start with "Ь" or "Ъ" but these capital letters exist and have their usage. Try copying ӏаса (lower case palochka) and Ӏаса (upper case palochka) into a Word document, select a large font and select a serif font, e.g. Times New Roman, you will see that letters even look different. I insist we should normalise the spellings. Languages using palochka can now be seen mostly in wikiprojects, anyway, especially Wikipedia and we should show them the right way. We can have a vote on this. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 10:57, 2 January 2019 (UTC)
I do not believe we (the English Wiktionary) have a mission to show the Lezgin Wikipedia the right way. I do not think we are qualified to determine what is the right way for Lezgi.  --Lambiam 13:58, 2 January 2019 (UTC)
I may add that the Lezgi Gazet uses the word чӀал in their masthead, spelled with a long palochka. Apparently they haven’t seen the light either yet. I see a long road of missionary labour ahead for you!  --Lambiam 14:18, 2 January 2019 (UTC)
Chuvash and Ossetian people substitute their Cyrillic letters with Roman lookalikes and North Caucasians use wrong palochkas or Roman letters. The entire Chuvash Wikipedia uses Roman "ă" and "ĕ" instead of their correct Cyrillic forms. There are many reasons for that (lack of proper computer support, lack of knowledge or education, habits, etc.). It's a common problem with some minority languages, even bigger than we have at hand but dictionaries shouldn't necessary use incorrect spellings. We can use redirects from other spellings to standard spellings. No need for your sarcasm, BTW. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 14:33, 2 January 2019 (UTC)
What source or authority says that using lower case palochka is part of the standard spelling? --Lvovmauro (talk) 07:52, 3 January 2019 (UTC)
The Unicode has created and it's used. I can see that lower case palochka is actually used кицӏ (kic̣, dog) has an article in Lezgi Wikipedia. There are many hits but not very consistent and Roman substitutes and upper case palochka still very common. We had numerous discussions on the topic and it's a general agreement with some weak opposition every now and again. One of the latest discussion with a some decisions made was Wiktionary:Beer_parlour/2018/December#Any_use_for_a_"rare_character"_index?. Just search for "palochka" in the "Wiktionary" name space. Perhaps the glyph usage should be outside the RFV discussions. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 13:57, 3 January 2019 (UTC)


Old French. I don't have a physical dictionary with me here, but a quick search makes it seem that other spellings like mangeoire are attested, but this is not. The etymology at English manger will have to be amended if this fails. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 06:47, 18 December 2018 (UTC)


Dutch, Rfv-sense of "(The Hague) pretty boy, player". Mentions confirming this are not easily found, its meaning in slang appears to be all over the place, but not this. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 13:01, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

RFV failed. Slang usage of this term is indeed varied; with some effort we can probably find a different citable slang meaning to add. — Mnemosientje (t · c) 11:20, 13 February 2019 (UTC)


Definition ice cream cone. That's not what w:cs:kornout says, so let's get a few citations for this and maybe some clarity whether this is the most natural Czech translation or a rare word.--Prosfilaes (talk) 01:32, 19 December 2018 (UTC)

A thousand pictures is worth a word.  --Lambiam 08:55, 19 December 2018 (UTC)
When I follow that link, I see pictures of a variety of conical items. Waffle cones, sure, and paper cones with popcorn, what looks like some knitted things (Krepový kornout?), conical plastic bags with candy, some dolls on top of inverted cones, a conical garden grill, porcelain cones, metal cones.__Gamren (talk) 20:47, 13 January 2019 (UTC)


cf. Talk:蒙古山猫. —Suzukaze-c 07:52, 19 December 2018 (UTC)

Applying the same approach as described at Talk:蒙古山猫, we find that google books:"印度錦蛇" "は" generates exactly one hit, only in "snippet view" where we can't verify that this isn't just a scanno. On the wider web, google:"印度錦蛇" "は" nets us only 36 ostensible hits, collapsing to 19 when paging through. Of these 19, four appear to be Wiktionary itself or pickups or scrapes of our content, a couple more are dubious spammy sites, and a few more are mentions rather than uses. I haven't run into any fully cromulent CFI-fulfilling uses, although I haven't gone through all 19 of those hits.
Looks like this one probably won't pass muster. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 18:06, 20 December 2018 (UTC)

à bas sa tête[edit]

Unused. Per utramque cavernam 12:48, 19 December 2018 (UTC)

The phrase can be found in print: [144], [145], [146]. All a bit older; perhaps this is archaic or obsolescent.  --Lambiam 23:08, 19 December 2018 (UTC)
Archaic. Per utramque cavernam 15:16, 27 December 2018 (UTC)


Esperanto for "werewolf", it seems like it is mostly used figuratively for certain players in the game Werewolves. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 13:32, 20 December 2018 (UTC)

I find a Usenet cite and a book cite. Hathitrust has a hit on page 173 of Esperanto. v.1. Nederlandse Esperantisten-Vereniging La Estonto Estas Nia, but doesn't show context.--Prosfilaes (talk) 23:29, 20 December 2018 (UTC)


The only quotation of it here is a mention in English. —Desaccointier(talk) 19:45, 23 December 2018 (UTC)


Only 1 result at google books (which might be a mentioning), 1 in google groups (dialectal, for example with i = I, di = you (sg., obj.)). --Brown*Toad (talk) 11:39, 24 December 2018 (UTC)

Here is one in de.sci.philosophie. The same one? I don’t get the intention of the “dialectal” parenthesis.  --Lambiam 19:15, 24 December 2018 (UTC)
google groups gave me this by opa2013 from 05.12.13: "Schau Gscheidwaschl, a nett?s G?schenk hab i f?r di!" (maybe this link works...). My guess would be that it's supposed to be: "Schau Gscheidwaschl, a nett's G'schenk hab i für di!". Anyway, i (= ich, I) and di (= dich, you [singular, object]) show that it's not normal High German but dialectal (Bavarian?). The parenthesis after you specifiy which you it is. --Brown*Toad (talk) 19:36, 24 December 2018 (UTC)
It is the same message I saw. Nominative i and accusative di fit with Bavarian.  --Lambiam 23:35, 24 December 2018 (UTC)
There seems to be a problem with the encoding of that text: on my computer (Mac: both Firefox 64 and Safari 11.1.2), I'm seeing placeholders for umlauted vowels, apostrophes, and other "non-ASCII" characters. Chuck Entz (talk) 18:07, 25 December 2018 (UTC)
This is obviously a difference of interpretation as to what language this is- Wiktionary doesn't require languages to have an army and a navy...
Move to Bavarian and look for references that meet CFI for that Limited-documented language. Pinging @-sche as the one who understands best how Wiktionary treats "German dialects". Chuck Entz (talk) 17:54, 25 December 2018 (UTC)
@Chuck Entz (1): I've the same problem - it looks like an error on google's/usenet's part and not on our part.
@Chuck Entz (3): google groups or usenet is an accepted source as for wt's LDL requirements. Thus the single quote could be enough to attest a Bavarian term. However, the text encoding problem could be an attestation problem. Is malformatted text acceptable? Can someone restore the text (there's a suggestion above, can someone verify or correct it)? Can someone translate it (suggestion: "Look #, a nice present have I for you" or "Look #, I have a nice present for you")? -- 23:20, 25 December 2018 (UTC)
It may have been entered in German by someone who genuinely saw it in German — I can find non-durable websites where it occurs in German [de] text — but if that's the only citation, then it seems it only meets CFI as Bavarian (although deciding between Bavarian-regional de and bar from only a very short text can be, well, like trying to decide if a single sentence is Scottish English or Scots). Since the malformatting isn't in the specific word we're trying to attest, and doesn't render the citation ambiguous or unintelligible as to meaning or language, it's tolerable, though obviously suboptimal. I would quote it with the errors intact, but we could provide a 'normalization' afterwards in brackets or something. Providing a translation is fine. - -sche (discuss) 03:51, 26 December 2018 (UTC)
Of course it should be quoted with the errors, as only that would give a correct quote. Bavarian i, di, für, hab, á, schau, Gschenk can be attested by other sources. [147] & [148] are dialectal (Bavarian?) and have nett's. - 10:00, 26 December 2018 (UTC)

huile de reins[edit]

RFVing an old entry of mine. I don't think it's CFI-compliant. Per utramque cavernam 21:41, 24 December 2018 (UTC)

This web page gives a citation from an 1887 book. Other hits I saw were either mentions like in dictionaries, or uses in blogs.  --Lambiam 23:22, 24 December 2018 (UTC)


Is it CFI-compliant? Per utramque cavernam 22:00, 24 December 2018 (UTC)

[149],[150], [151].  --Lambiam 23:08, 24 December 2018 (UTC)
All right, but are these durably archived sources? Per utramque cavernam 11:38, 25 December 2018 (UTC)
They are from the websites of leading Belarusian newspapers that have an archive search function. But if the Internet ceases to exist, or a nuclear war obliterates Minsk, the durability may be in doubt.  --Lambiam 05:23, 26 December 2018 (UTC)
The hard part is determining if these articles were in the print editions of those newspapers, but it seems likely that they were (and would therefore be "durable"). —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 07:23, 26 December 2018 (UTC)

er ist was er isst[edit]

GBS only gives me a few results with comma and ß: "Er ist, was er ißt." (twice), "... daß er ist, was er ißt, ...". -- 09:23, 25 December 2018 (UTC)

du bist was du isst in you are what you eat[edit]

Standard form has comma as "du bist, was du ißt" or "Du bist, was Du ißt" ("du bist, was du isst" or "Du bist, was Du isst"). -- 09:35, 25 December 2018 (UTC)

This is originally an aphorism by Ludwig Feuerbach: “der Mensch ist, was er ißt.” I doubt that it has attained lexical status.
"man ist, was man ißt" ("man ist, was man isst") and "du/Du bist, was du/Du ißt" with comma should be common, and might count as proverbs which wt includes too. -- 22:53, 25 December 2018 (UTC)
"man ist, was man ißt/isst" is the more common form, easily attested in book and news sources. I think it also offers a better correspondence with English you are what you eat, in which the pronoun you is used in the impersonal sense of anyone.  --Lambiam 21:11, 26 December 2018 (UTC)


Rfv-sense: Luojiang (a community in Luojiang, Quanzhou, Fujian, China). Is this referring to the town in Hui'an, Quanzhou? — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 03:09, 27 December 2018 (UTC)


"Fireworks"; a large amount of the Google results seem to relate to Japan or pop culture. Can this be cited? Does this need usage notes? —Suzukaze-c 03:42, 27 December 2018 (UTC)

selamün aleiküm[edit]

Marked for deletion with the comment "Not Turkish. No referances." — surjection?〉 10:38, 27 December 2018 (UTC)

The common Turkish version and spelling of this originally Islamic greeting, which however has largely lost its religious connotation, is selam aleykum, the standard response to which is ve aleykum selam. You also hear the variant aleyküm with a front vowel. When seriously meant to be Islamic, however, Turks will use something closer to the Arabic version, but adapted to Turkish phonology. This may be spelled in different ways, such as – I think most commonly – selamın aleyküm. The spelling “selâmün aleyküm” feels like a transliteration of Ottoman Turkish but can be attested; in fact, it is the spelling found at the Turkish Wikipedia. Turkish spelling is highly phonetic and a spelling with ei is definitely nonstandard; this would correspond to a two-syllable /e.i/ instead of the correct one-syllable /ej/.  --Lambiam 15:11, 27 December 2018 (UTC)


DTLHS (talk) 17:39, 29 December 2018 (UTC)

Nothing on WS. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 08:56, 4 January 2019 (UTC)


Italian. A witty or sarcastic remark characteristic of Gregory House, title character of the American medical drama series House. Equinox 13:18, 30 December 2018 (UTC)


No source for this spelling. The SIL dictionary has uíchu. --Lvovmauro (talk) 06:30, 31 December 2018 (UTC)


Rfv-sense of "Member of the furry fandom." I don't think there are any uses on Usenet. This seems to be exclusively used by one person on Wikifur. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 08:24, 31 December 2018 (UTC)

January 2019[edit]


Chinese: variant of . — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 21:09, 3 January 2019 (UTC)


Spanish for microlight. Ultimateria (talk) 23:01, 3 January 2019 (UTC)


Spanish, "to aim". I only see typos for afirmar. Ultimateria (talk) 23:05, 3 January 2019 (UTC)

This isn't Spanish. Bad spelling, wrong meaning. —Stephen (Talk) 06:35, 10 January 2019 (UTC)


Rfv-sense of "any lizard". This strikes me as exceedingly weird (could you call a Komodo dragon a "schorpioen"?), the WNT labels it as West-Flemish but doesn't give any citations. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 11:52, 4 January 2019 (UTC)

Van Dale gives a nonstandard definition hagedis (lizard) as well. Problem with dialect terms like this is that dialect dictionaries don't count as citations for Wiktionary while sources that are citable tend to be written in standard Dutch and thus won't include them. I really wish there was some sort of rule that allowed dialect terms from dictionaries to be attested more easily, because currently dialect terms are really vulnerable to deletion through RFV for this reason. — Mnemosientje (t · c) 13:45, 4 January 2019 (UTC)
@Mnemosientje: The issue has cropped up before; I think it's getting time to have a change in policy. Per utramque cavernam 14:31, 4 January 2019 (UTC)
I feel your pain, though my intent is rather to question the scope of that definition, which incidentally is a Verbo def cribbed from the WNT. "Any lizard" is improbably wide. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 15:50, 4 January 2019 (UTC)
An additional problem is to determine whether some given citation not mentioning stings (like here) refers to specimens of the order Scorpiones specifically, or possibly to creepy-crawlies from another order such as Squamata.  --Lambiam 17:05, 4 January 2019 (UTC)
I think the referent there is the ſlang zonder tanden of a snake charmer mentioned earlier in the paragraph, so a toothless snake. So that counts as evidence that a definition "any squamate" is correct. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 08:16, 7 January 2019 (UTC)
In my reading of the text, the ſlang and the ſchorpioen refer to different observations. Moreover, the Dutch text is a translation of the original French by the Great Belzoni, which has: « ..., et aussitôt on y vit paraître un scorpion. » So I’m afraid it does not count as evidence one way or another.  --Lambiam 11:07, 7 January 2019 (UTC)


Any takers? We do not have the English translation on Wiktionary. Needs formatting properly if OK. SemperBlotto (talk) 05:57, 5 January 2019 (UTC)


Can we verify the specific sense Antares? While Antares is a bright star (the literal meaning of 明星), I see no evidence this is used in Japanese to designate specifically that star.  --Lambiam 10:32, 5 January 2019 (UTC)


Discussion moved from Wiktionary:Requests_for_deletion/Non-English#vannaise.

Hello, vannais (adj), vannaise, vannaises, Vannais, Vannaise and Vannaises does not exist in French. "of or from Vannes" is vannetais. Pamputt (talk) 18:43, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

  • Delete all.  --Lambiam 21:41, 5 January 2019 (UTC)


Spanish for macaroon. Googling "receta amaretas" turns up nothing in Spanish. Ultimateria (talk) 17:34, 9 January 2019 (UTC)

The Spanish Wikipedia leaves the English term untranslated, although offering the Spanish transliteration macarun (which I do not find used), and remarks that the first macaroons were similar to the current (Italian) amaretti. In general, absence of evidence does not imply evidence of absence, but the lack of any mention of the word amareta here is a strong case against its existence as a Spanish word.  --Lambiam 21:09, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
Never heard of "amareta" in Spanish. It sounds like amaretto. I have always called macaroons almendrados, but that might technically be slightly different, marzipan. There is also the macarrón cookies, which are French macarons, and which are again similar but different. —Stephen (Talk) 07:09, 10 January 2019 (UTC)
Never heard either, but dunno so much about that kind of desserts. Sobreira ►〓 (parlez) 14:06, 10 January 2019 (UTC)


Rfv-sense of "to bolster, to boost, to animate; to develop; to tighten; to encourage; to guarantee". The senses "to bolster, to boost, to animate; to develop (buildings?, "to construct"?); to encourage" look like they should belong in some form at opkrikken instead (if included at all), I'm not sure where "to tighten" comes from and "to guarantee" looks improbable. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 12:38, 10 January 2019 (UTC)

RFV failed. — Mnemosientje (t · c) 11:17, 13 February 2019 (UTC)




Rfv-sense "Southern Min" (etc.) —Suzukaze-c 02:24, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

Duh. Those are obviously well-attested phrases; there are even whole Wikipedia articles about the regions! Johnny Shiz (talk) 22:53, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
@Johnny Shiz: This is rfv-sense for the senses referring to the topolects (varieties of Min Chinese), not for those referring to the regions (parts of Fujian), which are not rfv-ed. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 00:59, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
@Justinrleung: The topolect senses are well-attested. What else are they called? What are you talking about? Johnny Shiz (talk) 00:32, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
@Johnny Shiz: They're usually called 閩南話闽南话 (mǐnnánhuà), not just 閩南闽南 (mǐnnán). — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 05:00, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
@Justinrleung: 閩南 is a very common abbreviation for 閩南話; even being used in Wiktionary, etc. Johnny Shiz (talk) 21:23, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
@Johnny Shiz: Saying that something is "very common" doesn't help. Use in Wiktionary is not a valid argument for common use. (I'm not even sure where it's used in Wiktionary as 閩南 instead of 閩南話 or 閩南語). We need actual evidence here at RFV. See WT:CFI. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 21:26, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
RFV failed, and unverified sources have been removed accordingly. I've seen "Minnan", etc. used as English names for the dialects, particularly on Wiktionary itself. But it's not in Chinese; in Chinese, languages are always followed by the character 話 or 語: for example, French is 法語. Johnny Shiz (talk) 21:34, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
@Johnny Shiz: I think this has been closed too hastily. (While it has been sitting here for a month, it seems like we generally let it sit a bit longer.) I have found some possible attestations:
@Justinrleung: The thing is, we don't just say 法 for 法語, etc. Johnny Shiz (talk) 21:58, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
@Johnny Shiz: There are exceptions to rules. Also 法 can be used to mean "French" in something like 英法辭典. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 22:00, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
@Justinrleung: Got it. About the original three phrases, found enough attestations yet? Johnny Shiz (talk) 22:02, 12 February 2019 (UTC)

zebro (Ido)[edit]

Ido for "zebra". I could find only one durable cite so far (in Mondolinguo). ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 08:45, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

It is cited in: L.H. Dyer: Ido-English Dictionary: Z, Marcel Pesch: Radikaro Idala, p. 296, Fernando Zangoni: Dizionario Italiano-Ido, "zebra", p. 286.--Edfyr (talk) 15:31, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
Entries in dictionaries aren't usually acceptable as cites, unless they're using the word in a definition, not defining it.--Prosfilaes (talk) 04:40, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

viziero (Ido)[edit]

Ido. It looks like there is only one durable cite for this. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 09:31, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

veziko (Ido)[edit]

Ido for "bladder". This does not seem citable. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 11:10, 11 January 2019 (UTC)


Dutch, Rfv-sense of "to dig in, to entrench" (transitive, there is a separate undisputed sense for "to dig oneself in"). My understanding is that schans in the relevant sense refers to either an (earthen) defensive wall often similar to a glacis or a small bastion with such walls, but not to a trench, and that verschansen can generally means "to fortify" or specifically "to build sconces", but not specifically "to entrench". ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 09:44, 14 January 2019 (UTC)

truto (Ido)[edit]

Ido for "trout", only one attestation found so far. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 11:00, 14 January 2019 (UTC)


Unsure what the protocol is for Reconstruction pages. I'm faintly familiar with some of the purported descendants, of which Ainu at least seems quite unlikely on phonological grounds, and other authors have deduced different origins (a paper by James Patrie sources the Ainu term as "apparently the regular development of the proto-Altaic first person singular pronoun").

Given my understanding of the controversial nature of the Altaic hypothesis, the lack of any sources given, and the unlikeliness of some of the stated derivatives, I'm wondering what the approach should be to handling this page, and any others like it? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 20:13, 14 January 2019 (UTC)

Our policy allows for this (vote), but this entry is very problematic, unsourced, and the editor who created it has a history of bad edits. Acknowledging that this is RFV and not RFD, I still think we should delete it. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 21:46, 14 January 2019 (UTC)

topazo (Ido)[edit]

Ido for "topaz", nothing found so far. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 10:57, 15 January 2019 (UTC)


Dutch: "nice body, ugly face" (short for prettig lichaam ontzettende rotkop) --Pious Eterino (talk) 11:02, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

The all-caps spelling is difficult to cite: [153] [154]
But whether this passes or not, the lemma should clearly be plork, which is rather easy to cite: [155] [156] [157] ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 11:32, 15 January 2019 (UTC)
I took the liberty of moving the entry to plork (I haven't added the quotes, though). PLORK is still in RFV. What about P.L.O.R.K.? Per utramque cavernam 11:58, 27 January 2019 (UTC)


Ido for "tombak" (the alloy). This doesn't seem to be used anywhere. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 11:20, 15 January 2019 (UTC)


Esperanto for "molecatcher". I cannot find anything durable. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 14:25, 15 January 2019 (UTC)


Catalan, sense "carrot". Ultimateria (talk) 03:42, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

This must be a misspelling of carrota. The word carota with a single r exists in Catalan but means something entirely different, as can be seen from the dictionary links.  --Lambiam 06:44, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

roer (Afrikaans)[edit]

Rfv-sense of "whip". Not in the several dictionaries I checked. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 14:20, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

RFV failed. — Mnemosientje (t · c) 11:07, 13 February 2019 (UTC)


Never heard this before in Esperanto. It's not in ReVo and PIV. Robin van der Vliet (talk) (contribs) 20:57, 19 January 2019 (UTC)

Found here, though it is admittedly really rare: [158] [159] page 14 That last one is very non-standard poetry. It is in PAG by the way. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 15:18, 28 January 2019 (UTC)


Spanish, "a hummingbird of the Amazilia genus". See Wiktionary:Requests for verification/Non-English#aedes above. Ultimateria (talk) 01:41, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

I believe that Amazilia is translingual only. —Stephen (Talk) 00:25, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
For what it is worth, the Spanish Wikipedia uses lowercase amizilia all over the place for the common names of many Amizilia species. I know that Wikipedia cannot be used for attestation, but, nevertheless, this strongly suggests that this is a word from the Spanish lexicon.  --Lambiam 22:16, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
The distinction between genus names and native words seems much more fluid in Spanish than in English. DTLHS (talk) 22:18, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
Three examples of common names spelled with lowercase: amazilia costeña, amazilia ventrinivosa, amazilia colimorada.  --Lambiam 22:38, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
I saw those on Spanish Wikipedia. I don't consider any of those terms to be common names. In my opinion, it's just carelessness, an attempt to commonize exotic bird names that no one knows about. You can do it in English, too: amazilia hummingbird. I still feel like the amazilia in amazilia hummingbird is the translingual word Amazilia. I don't think any Spanish-speaking person would use or understand amazilia except for some zoologists and bird people who know about the Amazilia genus of colibríes. —Stephen (Talk) 00:53, 23 January 2019 (UTC)


Spanish, "hamiform, hooklike". Ultimateria (talk) 01:52, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

aganchado, aganchar are pretty rare in Spanish. I think enganchar, enganchado are synonyms. I think hooked is a good translation of aganchado, in addition to installed and, figuratively, "caused to be interested". I was not familiar with the English word hamiform and I could not find an example of aganchado online with that sense, but I think it makes sense. —Stephen (Talk) 00:15, 22 January 2019 (UTC)


Rfv-sense: foo dog. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 03:47, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Yes, indeed. See "Common Knowledge of Chinese History, 2012". Johnny Shiz (talk) 22:55, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
@Johnny Shiz: I don't think I can find that book. Remember verification at Wiktionary requires actual uses, so citing a book without a quotation would not help. See WT:CFI. Anyway, I found two quotations elsewhere, so we just need one more to have this sense verified. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 00:57, 4 February 2019 (UTC)


Related rfv-sense. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 03:59, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Which sense? Johnny Shiz (talk) 00:49, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
@Johnny Shiz: The same sense as above: foo dog. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 05:01, 9 February 2019 (UTC)

patinage de descente extrême[edit]

GB Per utramque cavernam 23:48, 24 January 2019 (UTC)

It's on Wikipedia w:fr:Patinage de descente extrême; also available from the OQLF since 2007 [160], so a government recognized term; -- 04:38, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
Wikis aren't valid sources for our purposes, especially not Wikipedias. Editors make up names for things all the time: they don't know the correct name (or there isn't one) but they have an article to write. As for the dictionary, that's a mention, not a use. Chuck Entz (talk) 04:50, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
The French Wikipedia article was created (2016) after the term appeared in the dictionary (2007), so, it is using the correct term. The Wikipedia article was created in 2016, so shows usage for 2 years of this term just on WMF servers. True, people coin terminology all the time, and then terminology goes into use if it is taken up. The thing about the OQLF is that it generates government mandated terminology, and frequently generates a stink about people not using French if they're using anglicisms. -- 05:28, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
-- 05:10, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
Also here:
  • 2018February 18, "Red Bull Crashed Ice à Marseille : les patineurs de l'extrême ont déferlé sur le Vieux-Port", La Provence, caption.
    Sauts, pointes à 80 km/heure mais aussi chutes ont ryhtmé les finales du championnat du monde de patinage de descente extrême.
And here. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 08:40, 29 January 2019 (UTC)


It's just a description of the Korean usage 화이팅 (hwaiting) or 파이팅 (paiting), possibly can be found in some translations of Korean drama. Not a Chinese word at all. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 12:56, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

I added three citations. Dokurrat (talk) 02:13, 7 February 2019 (UTC)


Earlier tagged for speedy under "There are no real bearers of this surname in Japan per source". Tagged for RFV, but not listed. — surjection?〉 10:05, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

It appears to be the surname part of the stage name of a famous former sumo wrestler: Ayawaka Masao. There is also an Ayawaka Building in Tokyo; I have no idea who or what it derives its name from.  --Lambiam 15:49, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
I searched some databases[169][170][171], but there don't found any results of "綾若". Ring name of the sumo wrestler isn't surname.--荒巻モロゾフ (talk) 17:46, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

Category:Esperanto text messaging slang[edit]

Proposed in 2009 on this blog. Everything in this category seems to me like uncitable, except for "sal", "bv", "dk", "kvf" and "mdr". I highly doubt that we can cite pa3no, 4talo, -J, -L, -N, -X, G-, K-, M-, X-, L, M, N, V, X and Ŝ. Robin van der Vliet (talk) (contribs) 18:05, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

I couldn't find anything for "pa3no" and its inflected forms on Usenet or Google. That someone would use a letter like "Ŝ" in text messaging slang is also implausible. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 08:22, 29 January 2019 (UTC)


Rfv-sense for "curtained carriage used by women" definition Bumm13 (talk) 12:53, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

Delete. Discreet vandalism done by a certain user that has been banned. @Bumm13 It might be better to check which user added a particular definition before sending it to RFV. If you're not sure of a particular definition, you can use something such as
<!-- hidden definition -->
to hide the definition first. It's going to take a while for editors to go through these entries that are rarely used. KevinUp (talk) 04:41, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
Not sure if it is vandalism, and she wasn't banned for her edits, but for her interactions with other editors. Chuck Entz (talk) 04:50, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
Upon closer inspection, I found that (píng) has the "curtained carriage used by women" definition in the Unihan database. [172]. Archaic characters containing the fish radical ( ()) usually has definitions that are somewhat related to marine life, while () would be the phonetic for this character. KevinUp (talk) 05:05, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
@KevinUp: What do curtained carriages have to do with fish, may I ask? Johnny Shiz (talk) 22:56, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
Discussion closed. That definition belongs to (píng). Probably a mistake done while copying the definition from the Unihan database. KevinUp (talk) 11:01, 4 February 2019 (UTC)


Rfv-sense for "red mole" meaning. I couldn't find this sense anywhere else. Note that the word "mole" is also ambiguous in English without context. Bumm13 (talk) 13:43, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

This definition was imported from the Unihan database. [173] The definition provided is usually not quite reliable. As mentioned above, you can hide the definition if you are unsure of it. KevinUp (talk) 04:47, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
Since the user will not know what is meant (a communist infiltrant? a cherry angioma? a burrowing rodent with a red skin?) the definition is useless, so we are better if it is deleted. I have not been able to find evidence of the character being used with any of these meanings. The sense should be removed from all languages.  --Lambiam 09:55, 31 January 2019 (UTC)

toonbeeld (Dutch)[edit]

Rfv-sense of "A window mannequin". Verbo lifted this directly from the WNT, but they indicate that they only found this meaning in one locus. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 12:27, 31 January 2019 (UTC)

RFV failed. — Mnemosientje (t · c) 11:07, 13 February 2019 (UTC)


Dutch. I've only found this spelling here. On the other hand, the very dated spelling zeep-appel may be more readily attestable. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 13:35, 31 January 2019 (UTC)

RFV failed. — Mnemosientje (t · c) 11:07, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

February 2019[edit]


This should be tsukihiza ([174]). —Suzukaze-c 03:22, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

I have moved the contents over to tsukihiza. Any occurrences of “tsukihitza” found must be misspellings.  --Lambiam 11:33, 1 February 2019 (UTC)


Dutch. One of Verbo's butt toys, which often have problems with attestation. These aren't really clear uses: [175] [176] ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 13:53, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

Lol, Verbo... I found two cites for the first sense on Google Groups and added them to the entry, but that's not enough. There don't seem to be any other attestations, not on GB, not on Delpher. (Never heard this in any case; "blote gat" as a noun phrase sounds far more natural.) — Mnemosientje (t · c) 11:00, 13 February 2019 (UTC)


Dutch, RFV of etymology 1. All the results found so far are surnames and etymology 2. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 14:48, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

I've always known the second sense as mauwerd (meaning whiny person, esp. a child), which was occasionally levelled at me when I was little. Anyway, per Google Groups the cat sense is attestable:
Don't have time to properly add it to the entry rn, but that should be enough for the first sense at least. — Mnemosientje (t · c) 08:50, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
I've added those to the entry, so that sense is cited, and made the RFV into a RFV-sense of the second meaning. Here is one result for that one [180] ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 14:19, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

40 fikt[edit]

Said to be Dutch slang. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 17:18, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

Never heard it. No Google Books/Groups results. — Mnemosientje (t · c) 10:50, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

Gender-neutral pronouns in Esperanto: gi, ŝli, ĝi, ri, geli[edit]

All of them lack citations. I have only ever seen the pronouns "gi" and "geli" in proposals and never in actual usage. Maybe they should be removed from the Wikipedia pages too, if they can't be cited. That sense of "ĝi" is really uncommon, and I wonder if it can be cited. The pronouns "ŝli" and "ri" can probably be cited. Robin van der Vliet (talk) (contribs) 12:28, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

For ŝli: [181] [182] [183] [184] [185] Three of these are by the same person. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 09:45, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
Found three citations for ri, by different people. פֿינצטערניש (talk) 09:29, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
Also on ri, the song by La Perdita Generacio cited by Robin van der Vliet is durably archived, for the record. I moved two of my lower-quality citations to the Citations page. פֿינצטערניש (talk) 07:53, 12 February 2019 (UTC)


Dutch for "placozoan". ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 09:19, 4 February 2019 (UTC)


Dutch for "protostome". ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 09:20, 4 February 2019 (UTC)


Dutch for "larvacean". ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 09:20, 4 February 2019 (UTC)


Dutch for "deuterostome". ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 09:20, 4 February 2019 (UTC)


Dutch for "hemichordate". It looks like it also had a different meaning relating to artillery in the 19th century. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 09:21, 4 February 2019 (UTC)


Dutch, Rfv-sense of "(reflexive) to be expected, be anticipated". I suspect this is misinterpretation of the third sense. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 11:35, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

Indeed, the usex for sense 2 actually fits the third sense much better. I think the translation is seriously off, though. And doesn’t the reflexive sense 3 actually mean, more precisely, “to present oneself”? – at least, I think a clause like “indien de gelegenheid zich aandient” corresponds to English ”if the opportunity presents itself”, whereas “to arrive” corresponds more closely to zich voordoen (sense 2).  --Lambiam 15:53, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
@Lambiam I would say that is just another way of appearing or arising. It can be used of people physically arriving at a place, but that does seem less common, so I have rearranged/modified the translations in sense 3. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 08:46, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
I think the original non-reflexive meaning, now perhaps somewhat archaic, is to announce someone’s arrival (see the 19th-century uses here). The common current reflexive meaning may have been mediated by pseudo-reflexive uses like “zich laten aandienen”. Do you agree that the usex for sense 2 has a better fit at sense 3 and that its translation is wrong?  --Lambiam 09:44, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
@Lambiam Yes, that looks like a plausible development. And I agree about the usex, which isn't very good for several reasons, the translation "successors" in particular makes no sense. I would assume antecedent means "previous/earlier fact/doing/deed", but it could also mean "symptom in/from one's medical history" and the context is anything but helpful. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 09:56, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
I’ve moved the usex to sense 3 and corrected the translation. The sentence is copied from a dialogue in one of the Baantjer books, De Cock en de broeders van de haat. In the context (an explanation of why the murder victim, an evangelist, had trouble finding reliable people) de antecedenten onderzoeken clearly means to perform a background check.  --Lambiam 22:36, 5 February 2019 (UTC)


Dutch for "euplerid". ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 15:43, 4 February 2019 (UTC)


Verbo protologism for "spank, blow on the butt". Only aârsslag is attested once, which is a variant of aderslag and unrelated. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 10:05, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

Maybe we can call this a proctologism :).  --Lambiam 06:17, 7 February 2019 (UTC)


Rfv-sense for "smooth" definition -- it comes from the Unihan database but I'm not sure if it's applicable or not. Bumm13 (talk) 00:11, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

Esperanto 'ali-' correlatives[edit]

alial, aliam, aliel, alies, aliom, aliu

Aliu and alies can probably be cited; alies already seems to have two citations. The rest I'm not sure of. פֿינצטערניש (talk) 17:14, 9 February 2019 (UTC) wikified פֿינצטערניש (talk) 17:15, 9 February 2019 (UTC)

Esperanto. פֿינצטערניש (talk) 17:11, 9 February 2019 (UTC)


Ainu word for "sky". But I can't found anything. Thanks. --Garam (talk) 18:40, 9 February 2019 (UTC)


I couldn't find the reading of (geum) on the dictionaries. Found two webcites mentioned,[186][187] it seems not to be a part of Modern Korean but Idu (吏讀) of the ancient times. I don't know how to describe this reading. --荒巻モロゾフ (talk) 01:26, 10 February 2019 (UTC)

@荒巻モロゾフ: There are many kind of theory, and it can largely divided into "금" (geum) and "곰" (gom) depending on reading ways of Idu. #1, #2 p.s. I don't suggest to see Namuwiki, because it is probably inaccurate. Thanks. --Garam (talk) 16:17, 10 February 2019 (UTC)


Seems to be a misparsing of (and) + 臀肌 (gluteal muscles). — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 06:25, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

(@VectroSuzukaze-c 07:30, 13 February 2019 (UTC))


Rfv-sense: (sometimes) the Sichuanese dialect of Standard (Mandarin) Chinese. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 07:22, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

(@DaviddwdSuzukaze-c 07:30, 13 February 2019 (UTC))


Spanish, obsolete form of californio. Plenty of languages capitalized indiscriminately in the past so I don't see why this is worth including. Plus I don't see cites for it. Ultimateria (talk) 19:02, 13 February 2019 (UTC)


Rfv-sense of "a pug dog", Dutch. I think this is a mistake for mops, which certainly means "pug". Whenever used of dogs, rolmops seems to refer as expected to an obese dog. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 14:00, 16 February 2019 (UTC)

Here you can see yet another, literal sense of rolmops.  --Lambiam 09:08, 17 February 2019 (UTC)


Any sources for this in Min Nan? @Yoxem — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 17:56, 16 February 2019 (UTC)

See: http://reader.roodo.com/senghian/archives/3639337.html ("lô-tsip-tik [註:邏輯的]來分析,無 kâng 信仰之間對頭前 tsiah-ê 主題 ê 講法,當然是互相 tshiâng-póng,sûi 人有 sûi 人 ê 解說。"), and http://taioanchouhap.pixnet.net/blog/post/30876878-%E6%84%9B%E5%8F%B0%E7%81%A3%E5%9F%BA%E9%87%91%E6%9C%83%281%29%40noya (……1 ê高醫師講kap另外1 ê會議chhiâng-póng bē-tàng來;……) @Justinrleung--Yoxem (talk) 18:06, 16 February 2019 (UTC)

@Yoxem: Thanks for these, but they only show that it should be "chhiâng-póng". Are there any sources that would suggest that it's read with a 35 tone for the first syllable? — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 23:43, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
Please see the Hokkien noon news of Taiwan PTS: www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMULZyeDwWA ([around 0'9"]: ..., iah m̄-koh sî-kan sī ū chhia̋ng-póng--tio̍h ...). Due to the lack of a mark for the 9th tone (high-rising tone) in traditional POJ, some writers uses the 5th tone mark as a alternative notation of the counterpart of 9th tone. @Justinrleung--Yoxem (talk) 10:04, 17 February 2019 (UTC)


Middle English:

  1. A male human

Looks like an attempt to reconstruct a parallel to wifman