Talk:Städter

Can the German Städter be spelt Stetter?

Is the German Städter related to the English Stetter, by any chance? Or, what is easier to investigate, has Städter every been spelt Stetter at any time during its history? — I.S.M.E.T.A. 03:00, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Yes, it has. That spelling was used during the middle ages. —CodeCat 03:02, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Excellent. Thank you. I've created a German entry for Stetter; is everything in it OK? Also, would you say it's likely that the -stetter in Widmannstetter means the same thing as Stetter qua Städter? — I.S.M.E.T.A. 03:09, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

See Widmanstädter. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 10:59, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

Duden says that the Middle High German form had only one t, and nouns weren't capitalised yet back then. "stetter" is probably an intermediate spelling. I'm not sure what caused the doubling of the t, but it's probably a spelling change to reflect that the preceding vowel was short. In Middle High German, vowels had not yet been lengthened in open syllables, so the spelling reflected the original form more faithfully. —CodeCat 03:11, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

@CodeCat: OK, thanks. I have accordingly created a Middle High German entry for steter. Could you check its accuracy and add etymological, pronunciatory, and inflectional information to it, please? As for Stetter/stetter, Google Books Search clearly shows that that spelling is attestable:

nine b.g.c. search queries

• google books:"ein stetter"
• google books:"der stetter"
• google books:"des stetters"
• google books:"einem stetter"
• google books:"dem stetter"
• google books:"einen stetter"
• google books:"den stetter"
• google books:"die stetter"
• google books:"den stettern"

Would you say that the spelling occurs during both the Middle High German and modern German periods? What does the Duden say about it, if anything? — I.S.M.E.T.A. 23:48, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

A quick glance at some of those Google searches shows mostly books written in Fraktur type that are scannos for other words. —CodeCat 23:55, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

OK, but what about [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7]; [8], [9], [10], [11], [12]; [13], [14], [15], [16]; [17], [18]; [19], [20], [21], [22], [23]; [24]; [25], [26], [27], [28]; [29], [30], [31]; [32], [33], [34]? Surely some of those thirty-four are valid. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 14:44, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

1. Denn er ist ein stetter Vater des Zornes.

2. Ein böses Weib ist ein Schiffbruch ihres Mannes, ist ein stetter Wetterhahn im Haus, ist...

3. Ein stetter lauff (Lauf), fort zufaren (fortzufaren) im glauben (Glauben) vnnd (und) Christi erkentnis (erkenntnis), ...

4. Und aber ein stetter Trib ist von bösen Gesellen

5. sich überdas ein stetter Ropff...

6. ein stetter Valitudinarius, oder ...

7. Das des Menschen leben nichts denn ein stetter Streife und Kampff (Kampf).

8. Der Stetter hätte seinen Degen entblösset, ...

Finally found a noun in example 8... --kc_kennylau (talk) 16:36, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ @kc_kennylau: Right, but currently neither Stetter nor stetter has a German entry (those pages list an English and an Italian entry, respectively). Doesn't all the above evidence justify some new German entries? — I.S.M.E.T.A. 09:50, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

As to the vowel lengthening: In early modern German the singular was stat and the plural stäte with a long vowel. Later the short vowel was re-introduced in the plural. However, some northern speakers still pronounce the plural (and other derived forms) with a long vowel, which is due to a Low German influence )where the situation is more or less the same as in Dutch stad > steden). The spelling with a "dt" is to distinguish the plural from the singular Stätte (which is originally the same word as Stadt, but has a distinct meaning in modern German.) The spellings stätte and städte are probably found in early modern German, but almost certainly not in Middle High German (where they would have indicated a geminate).Kolmiel (talk) 22:58, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

And "ä" was also not regularly distinguished from "e" before Early Modern German. So MHG probably had only steter, while Early Modern German had stetter, stedter, stätter, städter, and possibly more.

Little correction: The short vowel wasn't "re-introduced" as I said, rather there were dialect differences from the beginning on. Vowel lengthening was blocked before -t- in many dialects: In standard German we have some words with lengthening before -t (cf. Vater), but usually there is no lengthening (cf. Wetter). So the vowel stayed short, and that had to be indicated by doubling the consonant. In Low German (and Dutch), lengthening happened in all open syllables, and that's the reason for the northern German pronunciation /ʃtɛːtɐ/.Kolmiel (talk) 23:10, 1 June 2014 (UTC)