Talk:cage
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The entry for the verb cage lists the sense "keep in a cage". The question is whether this sense can be (unambiguously) attested. There was some discussion over this last month in the Tea room at section cage verb, but no conclusion was reached. --Lambiam 22:26, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
- Why not merge the first two definitions into "to put or keep in a cage"? Kiwima (talk) 01:14, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
- Because it is in doubt that the sense "keep in a cage" can be attested. If it cannot, we should not keep this sense in, also not by merging it with an attested sense. --Lambiam 23:28, 6 July 2018 (UTC)
- I have cited this. Obviously, there is some overlap, because to keep something in a cage one must first put it there, but the quotes I have added all have their emphasis on the keeping in the cage rather than the putting there. Kiwima (talk) 00:07, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
- I don't think either of the first two senses, "to put in a cage" or "to keep in a cage", exists as a separate sense: it does seem like the senses should be merged. I notice that (some) other dictionaries use the verb "confine" rather than "keep" or "put". I would suggest something like "To confine in a cage; to put or keep in a cage". - -sche (discuss) 03:49, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
- I agree, and suggested that, but @Lambiam wanted cites to support the sense of "keep in a cage", so I cited this to get that detail taken care of. Kiwima (talk) 01:38, 13 July 2018 (UTC)
- I agree that the senses are closely related and that in many uses, especially in the passive voice, it is not clear which of the two is meant. But consider this. Turkish does not have a single word for translating the verb. A suitable translation for the dynamic sense "to put in a cage" would be kafese kapamak. For the stative sense "to keep in a cage" you could use kafeste tutmak. But no single translation can cover both senses. I think this by itself is sufficient indication that the two senses, however closely related, are sufficiently different to warrant separate entries. --Lambiam 09:28, 13 July 2018 (UTC)
- I agree, and suggested that, but @Lambiam wanted cites to support the sense of "keep in a cage", so I cited this to get that detail taken care of. Kiwima (talk) 01:38, 13 July 2018 (UTC)
- I don't think either of the first two senses, "to put in a cage" or "to keep in a cage", exists as a separate sense: it does seem like the senses should be merged. I notice that (some) other dictionaries use the verb "confine" rather than "keep" or "put". I would suggest something like "To confine in a cage; to put or keep in a cage". - -sche (discuss) 03:49, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
- I have cited this. Obviously, there is some overlap, because to keep something in a cage one must first put it there, but the quotes I have added all have their emphasis on the keeping in the cage rather than the putting there. Kiwima (talk) 00:07, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
- Because it is in doubt that the sense "keep in a cage" can be attested. If it cannot, we should not keep this sense in, also not by merging it with an attested sense. --Lambiam 23:28, 6 July 2018 (UTC)
The following discussion has been moved from Wiktionary:Requests for verification (permalink).
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Rfv-sense "A place of confinement for malefactors.", which seems synonymous with "jail, prison". The second quote seems to just cite the first sense ("An enclosure made of bars, normally to hold animals."). The first quote could conceivably cite either the literal cage that the father is in or, synecdochically, the prison.__Gamren (talk) 08:54, 20 October 2018 (UTC)
- The use of cages to confine prisoners is not obsolete; see this catalogue page. For just $1,406.69 you too could be the proud owner of a starter model. Prisoners are not necessarily malefactors, or should I say, malefaction is in the eye of those in power. Obviously, cage can be used as a figure of speech for about anything that confines, as in “There is none of my uncles marks upon you: he taught me how to know a man in love: in which cage of rushes, I am sure you are not prisoner.” (As You Like It, iii 2). Chomsky is fond of using the metaphor of ”expanding the floor of the cage”, introduced by an organizer of rural workers in Latin America, in which ”the cage” represents the suppression of worker rights sanctioned and even effected by the State. So, in conclusion, I think the sense should be broadened to (figurative) Something that confines. --Lambiam 13:16, 22 October 2018 (UTC)
- Well, sure, but isn't that the same as sense #5: "(figuratively) Something that hinders freedom."? The quotes and the fact that the definition includes the word "place" makes me think whoever added it didn't have metaphorical usage in mind.__Gamren (talk) 16:14, 22 October 2018 (UTC)
- Yes, the same as sense #5 – but I like my wording more. The def “A place of confinement for malefactors”, taking place literally, would also cover a penal colony, so aside from the verification issue, it is not very usable. For a literal sense, Merriam–Webster has “a : a barred cell for confining prisoners / b : a fenced area for prisoners of war”, while The American Heritage Dictionary has “A barred room or fenced enclosure for confining prisoners.” Combining these, we might use, “A barred cell or fenced enclosure for confining prisoners.” --Lambiam 18:24, 22 October 2018 (UTC)
- I say we merge it with sense 1 as "a barred enclosure". Birds, cats, prisoners, gladiators; with or without a solid roof/ceiling/wall and possibly with no ceiling.__Gamren (talk) 11:57, 23 October 2018 (UTC)
- Yes, the same as sense #5 – but I like my wording more. The def “A place of confinement for malefactors”, taking place literally, would also cover a penal colony, so aside from the verification issue, it is not very usable. For a literal sense, Merriam–Webster has “a : a barred cell for confining prisoners / b : a fenced area for prisoners of war”, while The American Heritage Dictionary has “A barred room or fenced enclosure for confining prisoners.” Combining these, we might use, “A barred cell or fenced enclosure for confining prisoners.” --Lambiam 18:24, 22 October 2018 (UTC)
- Well, sure, but isn't that the same as sense #5: "(figuratively) Something that hinders freedom."? The quotes and the fact that the definition includes the word "place" makes me think whoever added it didn't have metaphorical usage in mind.__Gamren (talk) 16:14, 22 October 2018 (UTC)
RFV-resolved Kiwima (talk) 19:20, 21 November 2018 (UTC)