Talk:derë

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Derë talk with Laurent[edit]

Hi, JorisvS replaced IPA definition of derë [deɾə] by [dɛrə] who mean pig (derr), what should I do ? Can you respond please ? I'm sure it's in gheg it's [deɾ] & not [dɛr], has a explained about we don't pronounce the Ë at end. Gmazdên 22:09, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

I think it would be wise to start putting Gheg under its own L2 header, so that there will be ==Albanian== and ==Gheg Albanian==. As far as I'm aware, there's only [ɛ] in Standard Albanian and Tosk, and it would be a hassle to try to treat all three dialects under one header. I just don't think it would work, so if you'd like to start making ==Gheg Albanian== entries, I can make more templates for you. — [ R·I·C ] Laurent — 23:42, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for response, I don't know if Tosk use [e] or only [ɛ], but I'm sure that Gheg use it. Also JorisvS use [r] in his IPA derë but if you check this Page, you will observe that R is [ɾ] & RR is [r], so I think he make a mistake, so if he mistake for R, he make mistake for E. How to correct please ? I'm sure that is [deɾə] & not [dɛrə]. It's more correct than saying pig for door ??? Still [e] epsilon exist in Greek Language & Alphabet, so its really astonished me if this sound doesn't exist in Toskian (for Greek term), I know that [ɛː] became [i] after Byzantine, but I'm sure that [e] exist in Skopje dialect. Also Hypjê (gheg) became Hipje (Tosk) because Ypsilon [y] became [i], in Skopje we still use ancient pronunciation. Gmazdên 01:04, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

Derë talk with —Stephen[edit]

Hi, Someone JorisvS replaced IPA, has you can see he added [dɛrə] who his pronunciation of derrë (pig), if you check this Page, you will observe that R is [ɾ] & RR is [r], so I think he make a mistake, how to correct please ? I'm sure that is [deɾə] & not [dɛrə] Gmazdên 22:01, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

I noticed, that you corrected the R [ɾ] but not the E [e], has I said Tosk are neighboor of Greek, epsilon [e] exist in Greek Language & Alphabet, so its really astonished me if this sound doesn't exist in Toskian (like for Greek term), in Albania E & K have two valour [e/ɛ] & [k/q]... So please correct, has I tell you before, I'm sure of pronunciation it's [e] and not [ɛ]... Look this to : Albanian_alphabet. Thanks, can you unreverse my sandali add. Or are you verifying the word ? Gmazdên 10:36, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

If it's Tosk pronunciation add info next IPA [deɾ·ə] (Tosk) & [deɾ] (Gheg), in Gheg we don't pronounce the ending Ë [ə] Gmazdên 13:19, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

Hi, correct JorisvS insult please, why he changed derë IPA ? Does he speak Shqip ? Language Babel isn't shown in his user page, don't insult my people please, I know it's [deɾ·ə] and not [dɛr]... Gmazdên 00:42, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

On the Albanian language pages such as Albanian language, it indicates [dɛɾə]. Gheg has many more vowels than Tosk: Gheg Albanian. Nobody is insulting anybody. I am sure that he has found that pronunciation somewhere on Wikipedia. This is what I have been trying to explain to you for years. You are not responsible for the Albanian language or for any other language. You are only responsible for what you write. You do not have to be overly concerned about the mistakes that others make in a language that you know, but you must be absolutely vigilant about what you yourself write. The mistakes that others have made here have not harmed you in any way, but the mistakes that you yourself made have damaged your credibility, and that is why nobody wants to listen to you. You need to ease off the mistakes that others make, and you must make certain that you do not make mistakes in a language that you claim to know. You will lose the respect of other linguists very, very quickly, but it takes a long time indeed to regain their trust.
One thing that we have all learned is that being a native speaker of a language does not necessarily mean that one speaks the standard dialect using the standard pronunciation in an educated fashion. Our biggest headaches come from so-called native speakers who are uneducated in their language, or who left their land as a child and only remember how to talk like a child, or who have no experience in grammar and phonology. The fact that you are a native speaker of Albanian does not count as sufficient credentials. You have to be able to describe it without errors. Sometimes this means that you have to fix errors in the Wikipedia pages. It means that you have to be very careful about adding anything in other languages, such as Arabic. You made so many mistakes in Arabic in the beginning that now nobody wants to listen to you. It will take a long time to fix that, if it is even possible. —Stephen (Talk) 08:34, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

You right, I speak old Gheg, and those are Tosk (Orthodox) falsified Dialect. Don't matter let them insult them self. I forgot about them, it's not my problem anymore, I decided that I have to go to Mekkah to perform pilgrim and to learn the Qoran... Thanks for you help anyway. Gmazdên 22:02, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

derë talk with JorisvS[edit]

Hi, first I would like to ask if you can add language in your user page, I noticed that you replaced IPA, I'm from Makedonia, and I'm sure we use [deɾ·ə], you replaced by [dɛr·ə] who mean pig derr, are you insulting my people ? Gmazdên 12:21, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Well, I'm not talking about anyone's dialect, but about the Standard. I know there are significant differences between the various Albanian varieties, does your native variety happen to be Gheg? I changed the phonetic brackets to phonemic slashes: from [der] to /dɛɾə/ (I didn't note then it also said [r], an alveolar trill, which is, I know, written <rr>, which someone else corrected). <e> is phonemically indicated /ɛ/ in Standard (Tosk) Albanian, but there is no contrast with [e], so (phonetic) [ɛ] and [e] are both (phonemic) /ɛ/.
I don't care about the Tosk dialect. Since a very small part of albanian speaker use this falsificated dialect, that Kosovo, Macedonian and Northern Shqip rejected & don't like. Pig [dɛr] & Door [deɾ], have nothing common. Are you albanian ? Gmazdên 13:56, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
Maybe, but since 'Albanian' will be interpreted as referring to the Standard (thus Tosk), mixing Gheg messes things up IMO (given the differences). Given the big differences between the varieties of Albanian, I will not object to a separate Gheg Albanian entry (like at zôjë), even when alongside a (Standard) Albanian entry (quite opposite to Serbo-Croatian, see my contributions). However, I don't know about other editors, they might oppose/undo such an addition, so this might require a fair amount of discussion. --JorisvS 14:09, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
Do you speak Shqip ? Are you Albanian or Greek ? Still you writed [dɛrə] pig (derr, I'm not sure you good enough in albanian phônology to correct my mother tongue. She is teacher and I'm sure of Gheg pronunciation, so your Greek Toskian dialect, it's not interesting me at all since is a falsificated dialect invented and imposed in 1947 by a dictator... You made error with [r] so to for [ɛ]... It's me who writed to Stephen to correct you RR [r] with R [ɾ], but he keeped the [ɛ] still is [e] epsilon... Also please add your speaked language in profile. Gmazdên 14:21, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
As I said above. Please try to read carefully what I say (maybe look up words here or there, I notice your English isn't perfect, so you might miss some things of what I'm saying). The thing with [r] was just a human error (and I'm glad someone else did notice and correct it). I'm not stopping you to add Gheg at derë or anywhere else, but I am saying we shouldn't mix things up. Also, realize I'm not correcting you. In fact, I would encourage speakers of Gheg to use their language instead of slowly assimilating to Tosk. --JorisvS 14:38, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

You don't respond my question : are you Shqiptar/Albanian ? Also about language add you knowledge (babel) in user page, please. I'm level 3 English not 5 or 4 but 3... Edit only language that you know at level 4 or 5... Still stop reverse, it's [e] and not [ɛ] pig & door aren't related. Make the difference between those two term. Gmazdên 14:45, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

I haven't because it is totally irrelevant. Only what I've said above is relevant (at least so far). First read carefully what I've written above, then ask for clarification if you don't understand something I've said. After that we can continue this discussion, I hate repeating myself. And if I may remark, I've seen your posts here and on Stephen G. Brown's talk page, from which I suspect en-3 is on the high side for you, no offense. --JorisvS 14:56, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
You think that it's irrelevant to add language you speak and write while editing a world dictionary ??? It's really astonishing... Please, don't insult my people. Good bye. Gmazdên 15:07, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
To this discussion, yes. I wonder, how have I "insulted your people"?? I really don't see how I can have. --JorisvS 15:14, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Just an advice edit language that you personally speak at level 4 of 5. That's all, if you don't understand difference between pig [dɛr·ə] & door [dɛr·ə] it's your problem, don't impose to all world, your controversial point of view. Still, I'm sure it's [deɾ·ə]. Good bye. Gmazdên 15:50, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

I edit with sense, if I'm not certain of something, I don't do it. This does not mean I won't make mistakes, I'm human just like everyone else, so I'm bound to make mistakes here and there. Sometimes I notice them myself and fix them, sometimes I don't and someone else comes by. You are the one who doesn't seem to be getting my point: Gheg ≠ Tosk. --JorisvS 16:08, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
Errare humanum est, I know, but it's seems that you don't understand what I say, are you albanian ? What's your Albanian Level ? Gmazdên 16:22, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
In response to that I've said that it doesn't matter IMO. In the beginning I've said why I changed the (phoneTic) [e] to phoneMic /ɛ/, because that's kind of the convention for Tosk, at least the one I've seen. (Do you know what the difference between a phonetic and a phonemic transcription is?) I realize Gheg makes a phonemic distinction between /e/ and /ɛ/ (well, at least now I do), but as I edited it with Tosk in mind that isn't really very important (well, maybe to you it is; you edit them with only your native Gheg in mind? Then this is what I mean when I say "we shouldn't mix these up"). --JorisvS 16:41, 6 February 2011 (UTC)