Talk:make a mistake
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The following information passed a request for deletion (permalink).
This discussion is no longer live and is left here as an archive. Please do not modify this conversation, but feel free to discuss its conclusions.
Sum of parts, IMO. Created by WF with comment of "common collocation", which isn't inherently enough for an entry. Move translations over to err, and maybe move Thesaurus:make a mistake to Thesaurus:err as well? – Julia ☺ • formerly Gormflaith • 12:55, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
- Abstain. At Wiktionary:Votes/pl-2018-03/Including translation hubs, the last rule states that "The existence of a rare single-word English synonym of the considered English term does not disqualify the considered English term". While I'm not too keen on those translation targets, I think this one is all right (err isn't rare, but it's not the most common term either, I'd say). But whatever the outcome, let's put all the translations in a single place.
- However, I oppose moving the Thesaurus entry. Per utramque cavernam 13:01, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
- According to “make a mistake”, in OneLook Dictionary Search., general dictionaries don't have this, though I've found usage examples at entries for make in some I've looked at. One legal dictionary offers a list of synonyms (presumably to help lawyers write more formal-sounding briefs); McGraw-Hill idioms has it; and WordNet (a semantic net-based reference, more conceptual than dictionaries) too. I'd say this represents close to the outer limit of what I'd call entryworthy. There are many synonyms for mistake that can be found (eg, error, faux pas, blunder, ?miscue); additionally many specialized hyponyms (eg, wild pitch, foul). I think a usage note indicating that there are numerous terms that substitute for mistake and a reference to a specific definition of make, such as MWOnline's "14a: to produce as a result of action, effort, or behavior with respect to something" make a mess of the job; tried to make a thorough job of it. I don't think we actually have a definition of make that fits make a mistake ("err"), make a throw ("throw"), make a turn ("turn"). DCDuring (talk) 15:19, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
- @DCDuring Sense 1.3 "to bring about" might fit. It has "to make trouble" as one of its usexes, which seems to be in the family of the ones you mentioned. --SanctMinimalicen (talk) 15:32, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
- I added a clause to that sense which might clarify its use as well, and may cover the usage mentioned above. --SanctMinimalicen (talk) 15:35, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
- Maybe. Usually I would say that we need a substitutable definition, but I doubt that we can do that for the most common senses of make. (MWOnline's definition seems awkward when substituted as well.) In make a throw (or mistake, turn, about-face, leap, attempt), there is an element of performance, rather than creation. DCDuring (talk) 17:26, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
- That's true. I'm inclined to treat the "to perform a feat" sense of make as a separate sense from the effect, bring about sense. There are a lot of instances of it: make a pass, make a goal, make an attempt, make a start, make a basket (as in basketball), make a turn, make a leap, make a jump, make a feat, make a stop, etc. I might add a sense for that. Make a mistake could arguably belong to either sense. --SanctMinimalicen (talk) 18:21, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
- Maybe. Usually I would say that we need a substitutable definition, but I doubt that we can do that for the most common senses of make. (MWOnline's definition seems awkward when substituted as well.) In make a throw (or mistake, turn, about-face, leap, attempt), there is an element of performance, rather than creation. DCDuring (talk) 17:26, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
- According to “make a mistake”, in OneLook Dictionary Search., general dictionaries don't have this, though I've found usage examples at entries for make in some I've looked at. One legal dictionary offers a list of synonyms (presumably to help lawyers write more formal-sounding briefs); McGraw-Hill idioms has it; and WordNet (a semantic net-based reference, more conceptual than dictionaries) too. I'd say this represents close to the outer limit of what I'd call entryworthy. There are many synonyms for mistake that can be found (eg, error, faux pas, blunder, ?miscue); additionally many specialized hyponyms (eg, wild pitch, foul). I think a usage note indicating that there are numerous terms that substitute for mistake and a reference to a specific definition of make, such as MWOnline's "14a: to produce as a result of action, effort, or behavior with respect to something" make a mess of the job; tried to make a thorough job of it. I don't think we actually have a definition of make that fits make a mistake ("err"), make a throw ("throw"), make a turn ("turn"). DCDuring (talk) 15:19, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
- Delete, along with everything else that WF ever made. --Harmonicaplayer (talk) 10:23, 10 June 2018 (UTC)
- :-| Julia ☺ ☆ • formerly Gormflaith • 12:33, 10 June 2018 (UTC)
- New proposal: Keep as a translation hub; move err translations over; keep thesaurus entry. Now that there's a sense at make I think it should be good. (thanks PUC for this idea, and StMin for the sense) – Julia ☺ ☆ • formerly Gormflaith • 12:33, 10 June 2018 (UTC)
- @Julia Nobody's used that abbreviation before--I love it. :) --SanctMinimalicen (talk) 18:14, 10 June 2018 (UTC)
- That seems reasonable to me--I can get behind that.--SanctMinimalicen (talk) 13:38, 10 June 2018 (UTC)
- A tentative keep. It can be compared with make no mistake. DonnanZ (talk) 10:00, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
- make no mistake seems more idiomatic, though–it only refers to a certain type of mistake, and I feel like it would be a bit odd if used as a command in a more literal sense: "Make no mistake! Read very carefully, please." – Julia ☺ ☆ • formerly Gormflaith • 15:05, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
- Agreed--it may have originated more literally, but now the idiomatic "believe me" kind of meaning is well departed from a literal injunction not to err--whereas "make a mistake" is simply literal. --SanctMinimalicen (talk) 15:40, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
- make no mistake seems more idiomatic, though–it only refers to a certain type of mistake, and I feel like it would be a bit odd if used as a command in a more literal sense: "Make no mistake! Read very carefully, please." – Julia ☺ ☆ • formerly Gormflaith • 15:05, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
Kept, the consensus seems to be that it should be a translation target / isn't totally useless. I don't see a consensus for deletion in any case. Per utramque cavernam 09:53, 4 September 2018 (UTC)