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Notes

• Terms that failed a request for verification are presumed invalid. They should not be resubmitted as the same term without adequate verification (see verification archives) and do not need duplicate listings here.
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Oldest tagged {{rfd}}s

ar ar draws wit router ring call out CL DH 成龍 curry thousand one Fantizi new go apeshit make clear little boy Focke-Wulf 190 Messerschmitt 109 steam engine by committee by steam carnival alphabetical order glitch hippie movement adiabatic lapse rate gravitational convection romaji infinite recursion secret/sacred online transaction processing law of diminishing marginal utility collective investment scheme -nomics cooperation gone winchester asdf Empire State Building certificat de travail lulu diputs extenuating circumstances his nibs treknology treknobabble English-language English-speaking business English advance fee scam silly

Contents 1 May 2008 1.1 کله کیر 1.2 wait for 2 June 2008 2.1 CL 2.2 artificial_grammar 3 August 2008 3.1 short cut 3.2 x-American entries and x-born entries (ex: Sicilian-American, American-born Chinese) 3.2.1 American-born Chinese 3.2.2 British-born Chinese 3.2.3 Sicilian-American 4 October 2008 4.1 Gallo 5 November 2008 5.1 curry 5.2 thousand one 5.3 Fantizi 6 December 2008 6.1 ever since 6.2 War on Terrorism 6.3 War on Terror 6.4 go apeshit 7 January 2009 7.1 make clear 7.2 little boy 7.3 playright 7.4 carnival 7.5 Messerschmitt 109, Focke-Wulf 190 7.6 steam engine 7.7 by committee 7.8 by steam 8 February 2009 8.1 hang 8.2 rate adjustment cap 8.3 alphabetical order 8.4 glitch 8.5 hippie movement 8.6 Empire State Building 8.7 dummy node 8.8 tool-assisted speedrun 8.9 romaji (Japanese) 9 March 2009 9.1 infinite recursion 9.2 secret/sacred 9.3 online transaction processing 9.4 tell a lie 9.5 collective investment scheme 9.6 -nomics 9.7 cooperation 9.8 gone winchester 9.9 Zephyr 9.10 asdf 9.11 super colossal 9.12 certificat de travail 9.13 lulu 10 April 2009 10.1 diputs 10.2 extenuating circumstances 10.3 his nibs 10.4 treknobabble 10.5 treknology 10.6 English-language 10.7 English-speaking 10.8 business English 10.9 en space 10.10 advance fee scam 10.11 em space 10.12 space 10.13 marsupial 10.14 silly 10.15 floor tile 10.16 computer mouse 10.17 Locational Based Marginal Pricing 10.18 zoom past 10.19 wrapt 10.20 plastic scouser 11 May 2009 11.1 tuse 11.2 tuses 11.3 tusent 11.4 compassionate conservativisms 11.5 Mac OS 11.6 hexadecimal notation 11.7 chocolate chunk 11.8 humble abode 11.8.1 humble home 11.9 chip butty 11.9.1 bacon butty 11.10 gravitational convection 11.11 application domain 11.12 moot point 11.13 North Queensland 11.14 dog- 11.15 Hello World 11.16 law of diminishing marginal utility 11.17 Mapudungun alphabet 11.18 -dimensional 11.19 in front of 11.20 -ridden 11.21 Uncle Scrooge 11.22 groodies 11.23 there 11.24 phrasal preposition 11.25 X circles around 11.26 I'll see your X and raise you Y 11.27 call out 12 June 2009 12.1 levered firm 12.2 coal mine 12.3 ground beef 12.4 abiétin 12.5 si vivo 12.6 course authoring tool 12.7 stag do 12.8 milk it 12.9 ninja baby 12.10 damn and blast 12.11 damn your ass 12.12 cussions 12.13 Egyptologists 12.14 go into overdrive 12.15 ar draws 12.16 am 12.17 DH 12.18 sociocultural evolution 12.19 Steinway & Sons 12.20 Erdgeschoß 12.21 and shit 12.22 why the Devil 12.23 swine 12.24 envenerar 12.25 Canis pugnax 12.26 I. umbellata 12.27 അച്ഛ൯ 12.28 curse you 12.29 damn you 12.30 ou 12.31 pub name 12.32 range estimation 12.33 patriotism 12.34 Reagan smash 12.35 waste time 12.36 come off the rails 12.37 pleasing to the eye 12.38 truss mi 12.39 resumini 12.40 con intenzione 12.40.1 senza intenzione 12.41 virtual collaboration 12.42 US American 12.43 on television 12.44 in a bit 12.45 private sector housing 12.46 on the air 12.47 get on the computer 12.48 off the computer 12.49 redeconvolved 12.50 Schlieffenův plán 12.51 in so far as 12.52 per 12.53 double positive 12.54 ex-gay movement 12.55 in order 12.56 Force 12.57 操你妈 12.58 把我這X字兒倒過來寫 12.59 this morning 12.59.1 this evening 12.60 in order to 12.61 rain stopped play 12.62 tell the truth 12.62.1 to be honest 12.63 "Common" French misspellings 12.63.1 bientot 12.63.2 enregiste 12.63.3 enregisté 12.63.4 levre 12.63.5 prenom 12.63.6 raper 12.63.7 quand meme 12.64 outpatient 12.65 comcam 12.66 careerist 12.67 flogging the land 12.68 communal shopping 12.69 now that's what I'm talking about 12.70 hold your tongue 12.71 tripartite agreement 12.72 freedom of religion 12.72.1 freedom of speech 12.72.2 freedom of the press 12.72.3 freedom of movement 12.72.4 freedom of contract 12.73 bat shit crazy 12.73.1 batshit insane 12.73.2 batshit crazy 12.74 three laws of robotics 12.75 dark green 12.76 fish 'n' chips 12.77 fuck ton 12.78 too much 12.78.1 too many 12.79 Philly cheesesteak 12.80 bog off 12.81 because of that 12.82 go to the wall for someone 12.83 take time 12.84 gate crash 12.85 point-of-care imaging 12.86 bring back into the fold 12.87 I'm gannin' to see 12.88 mettre en bouteille 12.88.1 mise en bouteille 12.89 aquatic animal 12.90 in layman's terms 12.91 keep your pecker up 12.92 cost an arm and a leg 12.93 reference point 12.94 control device 12.95 spring month 12.96 marine fish 12.97 scented water 12.98 most of all 12.99 academic disadvantage 12.100 pissin like a race horse 12.101 historical figure 12.102 owt fer nowt 12.103 harjaR 12.104 slam the phone down

[edit] May 2008

[edit] کله کیر

It has been at requests for verification before but does not appear to be verified. The English definition has been removed by 64.62.138.100 (talk • contribs) but I reverted and decided to nominate it for deletion, unless it can be verified it should be deleted. 86.152.210.92 01:30, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

The fundamental meaning is correct, but the question is the semantic level. Literally it says "prick head", but I don’t know if it is used only in a vulgar sense or also in medical jargon. —Stephen 06:28, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] wait for

(From RFV)

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I can see nothing but a sum of parts, wait and for Goldenrowley 03:53, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

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We don't have that sense of for, and I'm not sure how it would be written. Waiting for someone does not necessarily mean to wait on that person's behalf; you might even be waiting for someone on someone else's behalf ("my boss asked me to wait for his daughter.") -- Visviva 06:10, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

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I am not sure I understand the comment, two of the definitions of "for" apply after "wait":

1. for =Supporting (opposite of against).

   I wait for you to love me

2. for = Because of.

   I wait for love

Goldenrowley 19:09, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Abstain. I believe that the relevant sense of for is one that we don't yet have — something like this:

1. Used to construe various verbs.

   Don't wait for an answer.

   What did he ask you for?

   He was convicted for murder. (We currently have this as an example for the “Because of.” sense, but that can't be right, as “He was wrongly convicted for a murder that never happened” is perfectly standard.)

   I'm looking for my friend.

— but that's no reason to keep wait for. On the other hand, in my experience we're pretty arbitrary about which verbs we take as phrasal and define on their own, and which ones we define at the main verb entry; if we expect our readers to be able to predict this, we might as well give up now on ever having readers. —Ruakh_TALK 19:58, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

An experienced Wiktionary user will try multiple approaches, knowing by experience that we are often inconsistent. A new user is more likely to type in "wait for" (or "wait") than "for", IMO. I am not yet certain that we have fully and accurately defined the senses of "wait for". DCDuring TALK 20:24, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit conflict]

IMO those are not the right senses of "for".

1. In the first example the emotional content has introduced the idea of support, but that is not common and not relevant to the meaning at hand. For example, in the sentence "I am waiting for the other shoe to drop." the "support" notion does not apply in any way.
2. In ordinary language "cause" usually doesn't refer to a goal or an event in the future, but rather something from the past. "I am waiting for my hanging for my love." shows two sense of "for", the first is the sense that had been missing and the second is the cause sense.

"Wait for" is roughly synonymous with "await". MW3 shows 10 major senses and 18 subsenses of "for". There are obvious parallels among the senses, derived from a basic spatial metaphor applied in various ways, but they are distinguishable. DCDuring TALK 20:06, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree delete. This is just sum of parts, with for leading off a prepositional phrase in the examples above. --EncycloPetey 20:17, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

• I think keep, myself. How would you know how to translate it? wait for is a single transitive verb in many (most?) languages. Widsith 20:52, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

I am afraid if we go down the route to say we cannot define "for", then we will have to make entries for things like "hold for", "stop for", etc. I think the word "for" is a word that links the word "wait" with the reason for waiting.. just as it links many other words to their reasons. Goldenrowley 22:29, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

I disagree. To me, wait for sounds obviously more idiomatic than "stop for". The point is that, despite having a transitive verb await, the natural way to express the idea in English is to use an intransitive verb (wait) with a preposition. This is quite unlike the situation in other languages. It is not a matter of "not being able" to define for, but rather that it is more appropriate and helpful to consider this to be a compound verb. Widsith 08:53, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

For me that's not the issue. We ought to have both the appropriate senses for "for" and whatever phrasal verbs or idiomatic expressions use "for". In gray-area cases I favor being nice to naive users by including more likely-to-be-searched terms both as headwords and elsewhere, in alternative forms, usage examples, and usage notes. DCDuring TALK 23:36, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Weak delete, and wait on too. If we delete, we need a usage note s.v. wait.—msh210℠ 17:46, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

• Delete, and improve the definition of for. My rule of thumb on deciding whether something is a phrasal verb or just a verb followed by a preposition is whether it can be felicitously passivized. In this way, wait for is very different from, say wait on, which is definitely a phrasal verb. "Yesterday I was waited on by a very good-looking waiter" is perfectly grammatical, but ???"Yesterday I was waited for by a very good-looking customer" sounds quite odd. (It's still better than *"The store was gone to", though, so maybe it's slightly more phrasal than go to, which is definitely SOP.) Angr 17:57, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

• wait for cannot be translated by looking up wait and for, because the two words are translated by a single word in most other languages. Using two words is idiomatic English, not to mentiona a common set phrase. Why not have it? Widsith 20:32, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

• I don't know if I agree with your premise. The correct way to translate wait for is to look up wait, find its translation, and see what preposition the translation is construed with. For example, the Hebrew translation of wait is חיכה (khiká), so you'd look that up, and find that in the relevant sense, it's construed with ל־ (l'-), “‘to, for’”). Problem solved. Unless you're saying that most languages use different words for wait for as for bare wait; but I don't think you are, and if you were, then it seems like we'd need the translation of wait for at wait in order to prevent confusion. —Ruakh_TALK 22:49, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

• Er...I'm not sure, until that Hebrew page is created, how clear that will be. From what you are saying, though, I think that case is less confusing than translations which do not take any preposition at all. The French word attendre for instance — to me the defs wait (intransitive) and wait for (transitive) would ideally be on separate lines and link to separate English entries. The English word wait can be used with different prepositions – for, until, about, around, on, up — all of which effectively create very different "indirect" verbs, some transitive and others in-. Now while this can be dealt with through good preposition information at wait (the current entry is nowhere near, btw), I don't see why it's not more helpful to make common collocations such as wait for pages in their own right. As well, if not instead. Widsith 17:16, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

• While I appreciate Widsith's valient efforts to find a perfect translation of words from other languages into English, the primary purpose of English Wikipedia is to define English words and phrases, not to fit what other languages have (that we do not) or to force the translations into English. For example we load English idioms here, we do not load English translations of French idioms (just because they can be translated). That having been said, "wait" implies we are waiting "for" something, in most cases. I never hear anyone "wait from" anything. Goldenrowley 03:57, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

  I don't see how anything I've suggested interferes with this "primary purpose" you are talking about. But whatever, I'm done. Widsith 06:29, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Delete with explanation at wait, and possibly splitting translations (if we still do that). DAVilla 06:44, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

I was about to delete this, but is there anything salvageable (movable) among the translations?—msh210℠ 19:28, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

A sign that something is merely SoP is if it translates literally and nicely into numerous other languages. I don’t know of another language that has this particular construction. English "wait for him" becomes in German "warten Sie auf ihn" (not "warten Sie für ihn"). In Spanish, I’d say "espéralo" (not "espera para él"). In Russian, "ожидайте его" (not "ждите для него"). It’s idiomatic. Keep. —Stephen 22:32, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

(Further to the above) Also, this phrase can be tricky, because it has different meanings (wait for him vs. wait for him to do something...German "warte auf ihn" vs. "warte, dass er etwas tut"), and the sense "wait for him" has at least two subsenses (await his imminent arrival vs. wait part of a lifetime until he returns from duty or is released from captivity, with an eye towards marriage). —Stephen 23:17, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

On the flip side, one can also say "he waited three hours for her", or "he waited three hours for her to finish", so even if we keep [[wait for]], won't we have to duplicate all its information at [[wait]]? —Ruakh_TALK 23:30, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

In the interest of keep the entry for wait of reasonable size, wouldn't it be desirable to have the wait for usage notes and examples separate from any such for wait? Something terse, but not hidden under show/hide, at wait that pointed to wait for would provide users the needed trail to follow. I know that size of entry is not a linguistic consideration, but it is a meaningful practical one for users if we want to give them OED-type depth of information. We haven't solved the problem of how to do that with single large entries. DCDuring TALK 23:53, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

As a staunch supporter of phrasal verbs, I have stayed away from this discussion because I am not convinced it is really phrasal. But following through the debate it is clear that 1. it is borderline phrasal for a number of reasons (although "he waited three hours for her" is a demonstration of non-phrasal status), and 2. trying to put all those usage notes everywhere would be anything but useful!!. So on the grounds of practical utility for the users, I think we should Keep this entry, with usage notes in the entry itself. -- ALGRIF talk 16:13, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

• Keep because:

  many other dictionaries include this separately under their entries for "wait";

  some phrasal verb lists have this; and

  our entry for wait is already too long to do this justice.

This vote is now almost even: 5 deletes: GoldenRowley, EP, MSH, Angr, and DAVilla; 1 abstain: Ruakh; 4 keeps: Widsith, Stephen, Algrif, DCDuring DCDuring TALK 19:03, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Weak Keep as a borderline phrasal verb synonymous with await. The length of the entry [[wait]] shouldn't be an important issue when coming to a decision about keeping [[wait for]]. And a possible derived term from wait for is wait for it (not yet defined here, but Urbandictionary gives the definition "A sentence-enhancing phrase, used to illustrate the epicness of an object/situation/event. " (better than most UD definitions, but I'm sure we could do better)). Merriam-Webster's usage note at [1] says

American dialectologists have evidence showing wait on (sense 3) to be more a Southern than a Northern form in speech. Handbook writers universally denigrate wait on and prescribe wait for in writing. Our evidence from printed sources does not show a regional preference; it does show that the handbooks' advice is not based on current usage <settlement of the big problems still waited on Russia — Time> <the staggering bill that waited on them at the white commissary downtown — Maya Angelou>. One reason for the continuing use of wait on may lie in its being able to suggest protracted or irritating waits better than wait for <for two days I've been waiting on weather — Charles A. Lindbergh> <the boredom of black Africans sitting there, waiting on the whims of a colonial bureaucracy — Vincent Canby> <doesn't care to sit around waiting on a House that's virtually paralyzed — Glenn A. Briere>. Wait on is less common than wait for, but if it seems natural, there is no reason to avoid it.

--Jackofclubs 10:01, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Keep. The use of "wait for" is idiomatic and therefore is not a sum of its parts. Translating the parts into another language will certainly give the wrong result, therefore it warrants having a separate translation for the idiom. --CodeCat 16:18, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

I agree with you but, by what reasoning or what criteria is it idiomatic? Without your presenting that or lending support to someone else's reasoned position your vote on irrelevant criteria should by rights be be disregarded. We have provisions for voting on changes in policy. Initiate a discussion at WT:BP. There are others who agree with you. Make a proposal. Then we vote. Then we act on the new policy. And then those who vote in flagrant contradiction to the new policy can be ignored. DCDuring TALK 17:02, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

[edit] June 2008

[edit] CL

rfd-sense Prefix for Canadair aircraft models. We have government aircraft prefixes, but not DC, as in DC-3, for the fabled twin-prop. DCDuring TALK 20:47, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm clueless about the topic, so please bear with me. By "we" do you mean Wiktionary? Can you give some examples of "government aircraft prefixes" that we include? What are CL and DC instead? (Canadair used to be nationalized; would that make its prefix a government one, at least during that time period?) Why does this distinction bear on inclusion here? (I'm not saying that it doesn't, I'm just really clueless about this). —Ruakh_TALK 00:28, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

The Imperial Wiktionary we, yes. Both are arguably "private". If government enterprises are exempt from our rules on things like trademarks and such, do we have to keep track of shareholdings to know whether an item should be included? How much government ownership would get an entity over the hump? I really hope that government ownership will be a red canard.

DC stood for the Douglas Commercial, Douglas being Douglas Aircraft, the leading commercial aircraft company until Boeing came from their second position at the onset of the jet age. DC-3 through D-10 were their model numbers. The MD-80 is a descendant of the DC-9. US military prefixes are abundant. There are many, many naval ones, ranging from USS, to CVN, similarly for armored vehicles and helicopters. Surprisingly the Air Force hasn't gotten very many of their designations in. I don;t know about the government equipment designating prefixes. Our standards for abbreviations might allow them. The manufacturers' designations seem different to me. Mind you, I'd think we'd be better to have more trademarks, place names, etc. in Wiktionary, but rules is rules. DCDuring TALK 00:57, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

So are "CL", "DC", etc. assigned by some external authority, or is it just something the manufacturers do? If the former, I'm inclined to think of it as a meaningful and neutral unit that may be worth defining here; if the latter, I'm inclined to think of it as low-grade spam — not a big deal, but not something we'd want to encourage. —Ruakh_TALK 02:59, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

And, thanks for explaining so patiently. :-) —Ruakh_TALK 03:04, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Manufacturers. The manufacturer's don't care enough to spam us. But there are plenty of fans for all kinds of boys' toys, especially "heavy metal". I have not been immune to the fascination of some of this. The two-letter airline codes (now augmented by additional codes), the three-letter airport codes, military equipment designations, .... Lists galore. The idea that we limit ourselves to product and brand names that convey more meaning than what they directly designate seems like a good idea, if we are going to exclude brands and company names. I'm not so clear whether we have drawn the line in the same place for abbreviations. It probably warrants some clarification of how our existing standards apply to determine if we need more. I see a lot of low-quality material in abbreviations. Not every government program and agency really merits inclusion of its abbreviation. I haven't seen terribly many RfV challenges to it. I don't find most of the abbreviations on Ullman's not-counted list to be worth fixing. I also don't think we should swamp the RfV/RfD with challenges without clarifying CFI for abbreviations. DCDuring TALK 04:19, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] artificial_grammar

rfc hasn't elicited good def in one year. DCDuring TALK 09:09, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

The only usage I know of means "bit of made-up language" (a severely reduced, ad hoc construction as opposed to a complete constructed language such as Esperanto or Ido). Made-up language tests are sometimes used to test language-learning ability. The U.S. Government used to use these tests to qualify applicants to the Defense Language Institute. See w:Artificial grammar learning. —Stephen 14:21, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Looking at th WP stub article and the first 2 pages of the 600+ raw b.g.c. hits, it seems SoP to me, but similar phrases have passed RfD. DCDuring TALK 15:54, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

I've replaced the definition and removed rfc, but it still looks SoP to me. DCDuring TALK 16:18, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't see this as SoP any more than artificial intelligence. Since it is used attributively in artificial grammar learning, it should satisfy CFI. I'll try to find a more thorough explanation, since the current definition seems somehow lacking, but I can't articulate quite why I think that. --EncycloPetey 16:37, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, the current definition simply defines grammar. artificial grammar means "small bit of made-up language, used for testing language-learning ability". —Stephen 17:05, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Deleted. With this definition, not cited and not kept. There's potential later for entry, but this discussion is closed. --Jackofclubs 00:08, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

[edit] August 2008

[edit] short cut

rfd-sense: A very short rendition, or snippets, of a film or play, as used in a coming attraction or promotional video.

IOW, short (“‘brief’”) + cut (“‘result of cutting’”). DCDuring TALK 10:34, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Delete.—msh210℠ 20:21, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Not the primary sense of cut, so keep. Would be a stronger keep if the stress is on short. 72.177.113.91

Irrelevant argument under WT:CFI. DCDuring TALK 16:07, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Do we need to have a third etymology for one of the missing senses also: from "short haircut"? DCDuring TALK 16:07, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Deleted.​—msh210℠ 00:40, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

[edit] x-American entries and x-born entries (ex: Sicilian-American, American-born Chinese)

"SoP" entries. Sets a bad precedent for thousands of similar entries (ex. Korean American, Cuban American, Mexican American, and so on). --TBC 22:22, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

keep Submit for RfV just like anything else. There are usually important as preferred alternatives to usually non-SoP pejoratives. Usage notes alone on each subject would warrant their inclusion. I would suggest that we should have at least one attestable non-pejorative demonym (?) for every ethnic grouping for which we have a pejorative demonym. DCDuring TALK 22:41, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Delete American-born Chinese and British-born Chinese; keep Sicilian-American and African-American. I'll see if I can dredge up the classic Nelson Mandela quote using "African-American" where an idiot American reporter "corrected" him about the term and Mandela explained that the black people of Africa were not actually African-American. African-American in particular is not sum of parts, since it is not used to refer to Americans of North African descent or to white Americans of South African descent. --EncycloPetey 00:42, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't think that these ought to be treated en masse, as EP's views suggest. There may be very different merits for each. I often find that the effort of citing the entries leads to an adjustment of the definitions that clarifies the usage of the terms. DCDuring TALK 01:08, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

That logic doesn't really apply to the [[[Sicilian-American]] entry, but I can see why the African-American entry isn't completely SoP. If it's necessary, I'm for separating this request, as per EP's comments.--TBC 02:42, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Separate these, per above. Otherwise, keep African-American per EP's Maghreb comment, and delete all the rest unless a good argument is made for any.—msh210℠ 22:04, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

• Kept African-American, Split up other discussions--Jackofclubs 06:18, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

[edit] American-born Chinese

Delete --Jackofclubs 06:18, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

[edit] British-born Chinese

Delete --Jackofclubs 06:18, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Sicilian-American

Delete as the current SoP definition. --Jackofclubs 06:18, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

[edit] October 2008

[edit] Gallo

This time around, I'm adding the first English definition too - a brand of Californian wine. --Jackofclubs 12:14, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

:This one should perhaps be RfV'd as a brand name that might have enough attributive use for inclusion. DCDuring TALK 19:01, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

It has already passed RfV. What grounds for reopening? DCDuring TALK 19:04, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

How did it pass RFV? Two of the quotations clearly identify it as alcohol. We could use one other. DAVilla 07:50, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

[edit] November 2008

[edit] curry

Adjective. Attributive use of noun, I think, though def. is not exact match. DCDuring TALK 00:27, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

• The use of the word curry in the West Indies is different from that in the Indian subcontinent. It always comes before the noun (e.g. curry goat) and seems to be used as an adjective. The dish seems to use different spices (I am not an expert, only having eaten curry goat once (and survived)). SemperBlotto 08:44, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

That raises the question of a split in the etymology. DCDuring TALK 10:33, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

[edit] thousand one

I'd rfc'd this, but EP suggested deletion and creation of an Appendix on number-word formation. I agree, though I am not sure that anyone would ever use the Appendix. The entry definitely seems SoP to me. DCDuring TALK 19:56, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Native English speakers might not use the appendix, but there are lots of fiddly spelling and hyphenation issues for English names of cardinal numbers that non-native speakers would find very useful to have an explanation for. There is also grammar to consider, since these words can function kind of like adjectives (but are not comparable) and kinds of like nouns (but the "plural" forms aren't used the same as the singular). --EncycloPetey 00:43, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't and didn't doubt the utility of the information. I doubt only that it would be found, except by a user being given the link, probably in response to an inquiry. We would need to have a very explicit and elaborate effort to provide hooks for such content. Right now I suspect (are there any facts?) that new users never find appendices that contain what they need. DCDuring TALK 11:15, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

2 cents..I try to put an appendix link under See also, or Usage notes, or whatever is the most useful placing. That way, the user will find the info. In this instance, "See also" in the entry number, and perhaps in specific entries such as one and hundred etc. -- ALGRIF talk 17:40, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Should we have a suggested layout for number words (and similar classes of entries, like letters, numbers, symbols) that contain such items as these links? Are there particularly good examples of any of these? We also by now must have guidelines about criteria by entries of the various kinds are to be excluded or included. I have had trouble finding them. Or do we just leave it bots and existing RfV/RfD? DCDuring TALK 18:03, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

The templates I set up for {{cardinalbox}} and {{ordinalbox}} were designed to clearly display an Appendix link in cases where an appropriate appendix exists. There are examples on the talk page for {{cardinalbox}} of what this looks like. --EncycloPetey 17:25, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Oh, and in answer to the other part of your question, Equinox went through the ordinal number entries and standardized/expanded them a few days ago, so you can look at entries for words like twelfth for examples of how they might be done. This doesn't, of course, include the additional problem of coordinating all the various numerical script systems that might be included, since ordinals aren't developed to that level yet the way that the cardinals are. --EncycloPetey 19:30, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fantizi

See the tag in the entry for more, but also I can understand having ti to show how ignorant people often fail to indicate the critical tonal differences between the pronunciation of two things that would seem to be pronounced in the same way but surely we do not need full word "improper Pinyin" entries.--50 Xylophone Players talk 12:45, 9 November 2008 (UTC) re-signing...50 Xylophone Players talk 16:30, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Delete per nom. —Ruakh_TALK 17:59, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

For similar reasons the Japanese entry at ojo was just deleted. See Talk:ojo while there are very many Chinese entries without diacritics though these are a kind of "mini-index". For consistency I have nominated ou for deletion also.

Perhaps there is an unwritten rule that no-diacritic single syllables are OK whereas no-diacritic whole words are not OK. If this is so then it should be made policy. — hippietrail 07:30, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Keep. It doesn't matter whether it is incorrect, it matters whether it is actually in use. Which, clearly, it is here, and here, and here and here, and here, and here, for example. bd2412 T 21:09, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

None of those examples are in a Chinese context. They are all mentions of a foreign word or the title of a foreign work transliterated into the English alphabet in an English language context. As far as I'm aware we don't include every possible transliteration of terms from languages which don't use the Latin script. For Chinese and Japanese we include the standard transliterations and for most other languages we don't include transliterations as entries at all. We also don't include all foreign terms which have been used in an otherwise English context. Are you proposing we change one or both of these policies? — hippietrail 08:39, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

My decision is still to delete. By the way BD4212, did you notice when finding those cites that the entry title is uppercase while all the cites use lowercase? 50 Xylophone Players talk 21:23, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

[edit] December 2008

[edit] ever since

• Moved from WT:RFV. DAVilla 19:32, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Is this worth having as a separate entry? It is an intensifier + since in each of its three PoS incarnations, afaict. Other dictionaries seem to have "ever" in usage examples at since. DCDuring TALK 19:23, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Move to RFD and/or delete.—msh210℠ 18:11, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

I agree with DCDuring (talk • contribs), dictionaries do see to use "ever" in examples with since, as common practice. Cirt (talk) 07:09, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

I had put this on RfV to give this at least 30 days for someone to come up with citations that show a meaning for one or more of the three PoSes that was not essentially "since (intensified)". DCDuring TALK 16:14, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

I don't see how it's intensified. Using just since in some cases seems just plain awkward. Keep regardless. DAVilla 01:16, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Which PoS are you referring too? I didn't think of any examples that seemed awkward without "ever". DCDuring TALK 02:03, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

The adverb particularly. Without ever it just sounds too formal. For the other two I'm not sure if it's an intensifier or something else. Saying "ever since" seems to establish a causal link moreso than just "since", which more or less establishes a timeline but does not hint that the two parts are more fundamentally related. I'm sure in some cases, though, it really is just an issue of intensification. Or is the relation I pointed out just another form of intensity? Anyways ever since as a conjunction runs off the tongue more easily at the start of a sentence. That at least seems like use without stressing anything. Also note that it distinguishes this meaning from the other definition of since as a conjuction. 67.9.175.207 08:39, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

[edit] War on Terrorism

POV; SoP. Same likely life and dictionary value as war on poverty, War on Poverty, war on drugs, etc. DCDuring TALK 20:13, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Delete. I don't think the lifetime is necessarily a factor, but in my view it's encyclopaedic. Equinox 22:23, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Delete. Bogorm 17:45, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Keep (and submit to RFV, I suppose). It's not SOP, as it refers to a specific war on terrorism, not any old war on terrorism (and also not the general war on terrorism that includes all specific wars on terrorism).—msh210℠ 19:13, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Keep - Idiom, same as: World War One, World War Two, World War III, Cold War, Falklands War WritersCramp 17:32, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Keep per Msh, although I wish this logic would have applied to Vietnam War. Any chance we could revisit that vote? DAVilla 07:28, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

The only issue I would have with using the generic "Vietnam War" is which one? Vietnam has had many many wars! Reference WritersCramp 22:47, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Exactly. There have been many, yet you and I know which one Vietnam War refers to. Yeah, it's in an encyclopedia because you can get a lot of information on it, but "which one?" is a very basic question. If somone would be likely to run across it and want to know what it means, that's why it belongs in a dictionary. DAVilla 08:15, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Keep. And I agree that Vietnam War should have an entry here too. --Jackofclubs 12:44, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Kept. Equinox ◑ 01:00, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

[edit] War on Terror

Same as above. DCDuring TALK 20:16, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Delete as for the one above. Equinox 22:24, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Delete. Idem.Bogorm 17:46, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Keep per my comments on War on Terrorism.—msh210℠ 19:13, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Keep - Idiom, same as: World War One, World War Two, World War III, Cold War, Falklands War WritersCramp 17:32, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Not exactly the same, because those are accepted names for wars in history. This isn't a specific war (it's a policy) and the term often has overtones of propaganda. Equinox 08:02, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Keep and stronger than above. This is not set to stop terror but terrorism. DAVilla 07:30, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Keep along with War on Terrorisme. --Jackofclubs 12:45, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Kept. Equinox ◑ 01:00, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

[edit] go apeshit

Synonymous with go postal, go crazy. Go + adjective structure wouldn't seem to warrant an entry. Looking up the adjective should get users what they want. DCDuring Holiday Greetings! 18:34, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

I think I agree with you. I immediately thought of go ape (where ape, unlike apeshit, is not used without go) — but, according to our entry at ape, it can be used that way ("we were ape" in an example sentence, albeit a fabricated one). In any case, if this goes, go ape should go as well. Equinox 21:08, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure I agree with myself on this either. There is currently a discussion about off the deep end/go off the deep end (TR?). I'm thinking that "go" + new adjective/sense leads to free-standing new adjective sense, leads to gradable/comparable adjective sense, but that the "go" form may remain very common, possibly overwhelmingly so ("go ballistic", "go postal", go/get medieval). DCDuring Holiday Greetings! 21:20, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Keep. To use DC's word, I think this form is "overwhelmingly" common. -- WikiPedant 04:33, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

[edit] January 2009

[edit] make clear

Same as above. DCDuring Holiday Greetings! 00:07, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Delete the transitive sense; it's just making something clear (SoP), no better than make unhappy or make worthwhile. I don't understand the intransitive one (is it an error?). Equinox 00:39, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

It seemed erroneous to me but English often surprises me. I put in the intransitive tag to clarify and distinguish. If you can suss out some other reading, good on ya. DCDuring Holiday Greetings! 11:01, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

So sussed. :-)   —Ruakh_TALK 14:45, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Merge into clear. (Specifically, make clear distinguishes two very different senses of clear that clear lumps together very vaguely as sense #5.) —Ruakh_TALK 14:45, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Weak delete. Reflexive sense could possibly be at make myself clear. Not sure that it works in any other person. DAVilla 06:12, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Mais si ! The first person singular is admittedly the most common, but other persons and numbers get well over a thousand b.g.c. hits, even without considering variants like "make oneself quite clear" (which gets another several hundred). —Ruakh_TALK 19:39, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Weak keep reflexive sense only. DAVilla 07:30, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Keep as idiomatic, not easy to tell what it means from make + clear. Mglovesfun (talk) 19:22, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] little boy

Given that little girl has been deleted, this should probably follow suit. -- Visviva 07:42, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Delete DCDuring Holiday Greetings! 10:43, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Delete. See also the "little girl" discussion.—msh210℠ 18:06, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Hmm… But should little girl have been deleted? Can this sense of little (“‘very young’”) be used to modify any noun other than boy, girl, child, kid (“‘child’”)m &c.? If it can be used widely enough, then both little boy and little girl ought to be deleted.
Also consider the similarly-used small boy, small girl, &c.; are they idiomatic? If so, they ought to be created; if not (because this sense of small (“‘very young’”) can be used to modify a broad enough range of nouns), then the additional sense ought to be added to the entry for small, per the resolution to the little girl RfD. † ﴾^(u):Raifʻhār ^(t):Doremítzwr﴿ 20:01, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Little also modifies lamb in a nursery rhyme. At least I think it means "young" there not "small in size". And one of the example sentences we have for it is "Did he tell you any embarrassing stories about when she was little?".—msh210℠ 21:54, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Can one attest "little boy/girl" as definitely meaning "young" and not "small"? I think not, but perhaps it should get its 30 days on RfV. DCDuring Holiday Greetings! 23:12, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

We sometimes use other dictionaries to support meanings. I think there is a case here to state that most/all main dictionaries include little = young. Another example we could use is My little sister. where little = younger. If we accept this defenition into little, then this entry becomes definitely SoP. -- ALGRIF talk 14:20, 15 January 2009 (UTC) I really should have looked at the entry for little before writing this. Doh. Algrif.

I think little boy refers to a fairly specific age-range and should be kept. I don’t know if the age-range varies with the country. I would say that in the U.S., a little boy is a boy between the ages of 2 and 10. It belongs in the category that incluces teen, teenager, young man, adolescent, baby, toddler, youngster, pre-teen, pre-schooler, old man, etc. —Stephen 23:34, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

I agree. little boy and little girl (as well as petite fille and petit garçon in French) should be kept. They are set phrases. But, of course, not little boat, little bird, etc. Lmaltier 18:13, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Forgive me if I'm being pedantic. But doesn't the "growth chain" logic mean we can allow puppy, little dog, adult dog (or adult dog)? Ditto for all the other animals I can think of. And, yes, including little bird. -- ALGRIF talk 12:06, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

But I think that little dog, adult dog or little bird are not set phrases at all (except little bird with its special meaning). Lmaltier 20:38, 9 February 2009 (UTC) Similarly, jeune fille should obviously be accepted, not jeune chien. Lmaltier 20:43, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

I see four deletes (Visviva, DCDuring, Algrif, and myself) and two keeps (SGB and Lmaltier). I don't feel qualified to delete this on such a slim majority of which I'm a member, so I'll leave it and hope someone else deletes it.  :-) —msh210℠ 17:09, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Delete per little girl --Duncan 20:26, 25 February 2009 (UTC).

Delete as SoP. — Carolina wren discussió 20:20, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Keep per Stephen and restore little girl. DAVilla 05:41, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Keep — it’s more common nowadays than boykin… † ﴾^(u):Raifʻhār ^(t):Doremítzwr﴿ 02:16, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Delete as SOP, especially per Algrif. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 02:59, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Keep, and restore little girl. Algrif has pointed out that my little sister means "my younger sister". But note that little girl does not mean "younger girl"; it means "young girl", so we have two different possible ways that little might be interpreted, but only one of those interpretations applies. This is one of the hallmarks of an idiomatic phrase. --EncycloPetey 18:15, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

But our entry at little has {{context|of a sibling}} for "younger", so that makes it clear, doesn't it? --Duncan 19:20, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

No, because boy is not a sibling term. We are discussing "little boy" and the associated "little girl". --EncycloPetey 19:24, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

But that's my point: "boy/girl" aren't sibling terms, "little" as "younger" applies to sibling terms, so "little boy/girl" doesn't mean "younger boy/girl" - according to the "little" entry, without any need for repeating it under "little boy/girl" entries. --Duncan 20:09, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Your point does not make sense. In the phrase little boy, "little" means ony "young" or "immature", as in "He cried like a little boy." It does not mean "small". The combination therefore always relies on a specific meaning out of the many that could potentially apply. That makes this an idiomatic construction under the CFI guidelines. --EncycloPetey 19:24, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Hmm. EP: "Little can mean young or younger, but little girl can only mean young girl, not younger girl." Dnc: "But we say at little it only means younger when reffering to siblings." EP: "That's irrelevant as girl isn't a sibling term." Dnc: "Exactly, that's why the younger sense doesn't apply." EP: "That argument doesn't make sense, because little girl cannot mean small girl." I'm afraid this kind of arguing is too subtle for my simple brain.

Notwithstanding if little girl really can't mean small girl (I didn't know that), that would be a reason for keeping the entry, so I'm striking my previous "delete". --Duncan 20:41, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Addendum: I have found a quote with attributive use (and there are many more found easily): --EncycloPetey 02:56, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

• 1959, Robert Chester Ruark, Poor no more: a novel‎, page 65

  "I didn't realize it until I looked at you in those little boy pants. You look like a grown man playing kid."

I think that the reason why litte boy and little girl are set phrases is that girl and boy cover too many senses and ages, making more specific phrases necessary. Also note that Wikipedia has a little girl page (a redirect) and that TheFreeDictionary defines little girl (but not with a good definition, in my opinion). Lmaltier 17:59, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

What does “set phrase” or “more common nowadays than” have anything to do with inclusion? CFI doesn't include phrases that surpass some frequency of occurrence. If you want to use this as a criterion, then propose adding it to CFI.

And attributive use justifies the inclusion of proper names, not just any phrases. Little boy pants (119 Google Books hits) doesn't make this phrase an more dictionary-worthy than 40-year history (743 hits) invites inclusion of 40-year or 40 years.

Misquoting CFI is just grasping at straws. Let's include terms if they actually meet the guidelines, not just because we really, really want to. —Michael Z. 2009-06-06 15:01 z

[edit] playright

This is not an acceptable alternate of playwright according to the OED, nor can it be found in any other dictionary source. Thanks. -Sketchmoose 15:43, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

• No - it is a totally different word. the OED has this (under "play") - playright n. Obs. an author's proprietary right of performance of a musical or dramatic composition. SemperBlotto 15:50, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

keep. At worst this entry needs the obsolete legal sense. The RfD once more raises the question of what makes a spelling a misspelling vs. an alternative spelling and may also raise the queston of what makes a misspelling a "common" one. There are many current uses of the term in edited works where "playwright" might be preferred by some (like me). In any event, no speedy deletion. DCDuring TALK 17:22, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

I have inserted "common" misspelling and given it an "rfd-sense" tag to take advantage of any attention this entry may have so far received to get more attention to the alternative/mis-spelling question. DCDuring TALK 17:30, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

This is fine with a proper definition. Before, all that was there was "alternate spelling of playwright" which is simply not correct, and I had never heard of it used in the "proprietary rights" sense so I didn't know to correct it to that (nor was it turned up in any of my dictionary searches, presumably due to its obsolescence). Thanks for looking in to it. -Sketchmoose 22:41, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

It may well go back to being an alternative spelling based on being fairly common in edited works. DCDuring TALK 23:02, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

This is weird... When I search for "a playright" to filter out most (but not all) of the legal uses, I get 0.5% of the hits for "a playwright" on the web (~548,000:~2,500). But when I switch to Google Books, "a playright" jumps to 9% (5,420:504). Forcing the issue [2] brings this down to 374, or 6.9%, which is still astronomical. Only a small fraction of those seem to be legal uses; scannos don't seem to be a factor. WTF? Is the web suddenly better-proofread than print? -- Visviva 02:29, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

I believe that all(?) Google searches for "playright" will count hits for "play right" and "playright", though only the latter are emboldened. I have taken to doing separate "playright -play-right" and "-playright play-right" searches to get what I thought I was getting with searches for "playright" and "play right" alone. I also get significantly different results for "playwright" and "playwright -play-wright". DCDuring TALK 12:28, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

The problem with that is that it also throws out any pages that have, for example, "play" and "right" in addition to "playright" (as will often be the case in a discussion of the legal concept).

Google's handling of quotes has been a little inconsistent lately, but the "+" operator seldom lets me down. If you're suspicious of the results from a simple quoted search, you can for example search for '+playright "a playright"' to make sure that all searched pages actually have the word in question, not just an approximation. (That search actually gives me the same results as above, at this writing.) -- Visviva 14:40, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Just to make clear the effect of the search methods as I understand it:

"AB" yields hits of "AB" and "ABs" (and includes "'A-B'" (and perhaps ""A-B"" etc)), but emboldens only "AB"

"ABs" yields hits of "ABs"

"A-B -AB" yields hits of "A-B" "A B" (as well as "A/B" "A>B", etc) without AB on the same page.

"AB -A-B" yields hits of "AB" without "A-B", "A B", and their fellow travelers on the same page.

I have not examined all of the possibilities raised.

Because I haven't yet found documentation of this, I suspect that Google is:

1. not committed to keeping it working just this way and in every search domain;
2. not desirous of providing much evidence to SEOers who game their system; or
3. not desirous of facilitating searches that are more resource-intensive. DCDuring TALK 12:21, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Also "a+playright" gives me many times more hits than "a-playright", which gives the same as ""a playright"". DCDuring TALK 12:32, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

On the digression which generated the methodological subdigression, I get 880K web hits and 5500 bgc hits for "a-playright"; 596K (66%) web hits and 536 (10%) bgc hits for "a-playwright", more in line with expectations. DCDuring TALK 12:32, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Kept.​—msh210℠ 00:46, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

[edit] carnival

Sense 5 = "A ritual reversal of a social hierarchy". Makes little sense to me and suggests no meaning of "carnival" that I know. -- WikiPedant 04:30, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

That refers to what the annual festival Carnival is about. It's more of a description of the spirit of the Catholic carnival festive season than a definition. --EncycloPetey 18:18, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Messerschmitt 109, Focke-Wulf 190

User:Sawbackedeagle added these in good faith before he was aware of the CFI. While we have (and probably should have) the likes of Messerschmitt, I think that these very specific designations are probably no-nos. (Compare Xbox and Xbox 360.) Equinox 00:02, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Move to RfV. It is not very hard to find attributive use of Messerschmitt 109 (with "pilot", "squadron", for example). It would thereby meet our standard for such entries. Focke-Wulf 190 might also. DCDuring TALK 00:59, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Where are you seeing that in the CFI? Seems to me at first glance at least that these are not idiomatic, nevermind whether they're attested (in attributive use or otherwise).—msh210℠ 19:59, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

I has thinking that these are product/brand names, like Concorde. Mind you, I am not sure that the collocations do qualify. DCDuring TALK 20:11, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

I would recommend that we delete these, but keeping (or creating) the individual parts such as Messerschmitt and 109,, and Focke-Wulf and 190. There is a tendency for the company name to indicate these models if no other context is mentioned. The numbers were commonly used on their own. A more likely method is to use the common abbreviation such as ME 109 etc.--Dmol 05:34, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Agreed, delete (or move to ME 109/FW 190). Not idiomatic regardless of whether they can be attested, much like Xbox 360. DAVilla 06:26, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Move to the abbreviated forms per DAVilla. Cheers! bd2412 T 16:57, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

[edit] steam engine

Redundant senses, would normally steam ahead, but am I missing something? DAVilla 06:21, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

To me the definitions 1,2 and 4 are variations of the same theme. They could all be combined into this:

1. An engine that converts thermal energy of steam into mechanical energy, especially one in which the steam drives pistons in cylinders.

Turbines should not be completely excluded from "steam-enginehood", since they utilize the same physical phenomenon (work produced by expanding steam) as "true" steam engines, and many sources, including Wikipedia, count them as steam engines. --Hekaheka 21:19, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Possibly, yes. However, if some people would use steam engine to mean something that is specifically a piston engine and never a steam turbine, then 1 and 2 should be left distinct. DAVilla 07:46, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

They're not truly distinct, but they are different. The first definition only applies to something applied with external steam, like a steam hammer. The second only applies to a piston engine (special case of first definition or a restricted sense of the 4th). The third is a locomotive only. The fourth is the general definition, and includes the boiler and applies to steam power generation and everything. So I don't see that any of it is redundant, although a casual look may suggest that. But they do appear to be all in use.Wolfkeeper 12:51, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Could this use cleanup? If not, some examples. DAVilla 07:28, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm under the impression that normally the term "steam engine" would refer to a piston-type engine that uses steam as its working fluid. This may be due to the fact that piston engines were the dominating type of steam engines for about 100 to 150 years after James Watt. Especially in theoretical treatise one may group piston engines, turbines and probably some other devices together because they exploit the same thermodynamical phenomenon called Rankine cycle. However, in practice one would seldom call a steam turbine "steam engine", because it would be confusing. I think that senses 1 and 4 were essentially the same, and I have edited the entry in a way that would combine them to the sense #1. With this change, I think sense #4 could be deleted. Btw, the steam source is always external to the prime mover and it does not matter whether the steam source (boiler) and prime mover are integrated into same structure or not. --Hekaheka 21:31, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

[edit] by committee

1 SoP; 2 tendentious definitions. DCDuring TALK 01:30, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Sense 1 is either redundant or wrong, AFAICT. I mean, committee proceedings aren't necessarily protracted, and if I said "it was done by committee" I wouldn't necessarily mean that it was done slowly. If the entry is kept in some form, we should include the truly SoP sense (currently lacking), since "by committee" usually just means "by committee".

I would merge senses 2 and 3, though I'm not sure of the exact wording. -- Visviva 07:53, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

ok what do you think of the entry now? -- Thisis0 19:22, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

I like it. The wording could be more concise, but I think these are both senses that we should have. -- Visviva 15:29, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Weak keep for sense 2. I think it could be (and has been) used humorously when there's clearly no actual committee involved. Sense 1 feels like SoP. (Actually, when a word or phrase has a non-literal meaning, like sense 2 here, people often seem to put the obvious literal meaning as sense 1. I'm never sure about that: do we have to spell out a clear sum of parts merely because there's a secondary sense that isn't the same thing?) Equinox 22:26, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

I could have no greater hope for this term than it be defined by committee. DAVilla 06:19, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Hahaaahaaaha!!! :D -- Thisis0 17:22, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

[edit] by steam

See steam#Noun sense 4,5. DCDuring TALK 01:40, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Which you just added. Please exemplify in a phrase that does not use "by". DAVilla 06:02, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

• 1845, Frederick Knight Hunt, The Rhine: Its Scenery, and Historical and Legendary Associations [a/k/a The Rhine Book], reprint, ISBN 1421266377, page 5,

  The traveller who decides upon visiting the Rhine will do well to take steam to Antwerp.

—msh210℠ 17:24, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Note, though, that take steam seems to have been an idiom meaning be tugged or something like that. So maybe that's the idiom being used in the quotation I just posted, and it's not an example of "steam" (per se, in the senses required).—msh210℠ 17:33, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

[edit] February 2009

[edit] hang

Sense "(transitive) To place on a hook" redundant with previous "(transitive) To cause (something) to be suspended". I mean, it's a subset of the previous, but I don't think anyone uses "hang" to mean "place on a hook, to the exclusion of suspending it by other means": no one would say "I said to hang it, not to suspend it, so why didn't you put it on a hook?".—msh210℠ 23:27, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Delete. Equinox 21:33, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

lol, agree with msh; delete. 50 Xylophone Players talk 21:42, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Delete per nom, unless it can actually be cited -- which, per nom, seems quite unlikely. -- Visviva 12:01, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

I asked you to hang your coat, so why is it still hanging on the chair?

Keep. DAVilla 12:45, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

I think that that's a social-knowledge thing, not a meaning of the word. Meaning, when someone says "hang a coat", especially when he asks someone to hang a coat, he means on a hook (or hanger), even though the word hang doesn't mean that.​—msh210℠ 00:48, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

How can the word not mean that, if that's how it's used? In such cases, hang means to hang up neatly, on a hook or hanger or however it should be. If someone were to say "dangle", "drape", "droop", or "suspend a coat", it wouldn't mean the same thing. DAVilla 06:59, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Consider this analogue: Someone tells his kid "take out the garbage". He means for the kid to take the garbage from inside the house to outside the house and put it in an outdoor garbage bin. But the meaning of "take out the garbage" is to take the garbage from inside the house to outside the house; that the kid is then expected to put it in a garbage bin is not because that's the meaning of the words spoken but because that's the way garbage is taken out. Likewise here: if a parent asks a kid to hang his coat, he means to put it on a hanger or hook not because that's the meaning of "hang your coat" but because that's how one hangs a coat. Another analogue, in case you didn't like my first: Someone tells his underling "make ten copies of this report, one for each person at the meeting": the underling then knows to copy them onto white paper. Not because "make copies" precludes fuchsia paper, but merely because that's how one makes copies (in that office). If a parent tells a kid "dangle your coat" then of course he'll be justified in not hanging it on a hanger, but that's not because "hang" means on a hanger: it's merely because the instruction was deliberately worded oddly and therefore implies that the action should/can be odd. Here's an exception, which shows that "suspend" and "hang" are the same: If a kid knows his parent likes to use weird words, and the parent frequently says things like "set up your bed" (instead of "make") or "fix dinner" (in areas where that's not the idiom, as a deliberate oddity), then the kid should certainly hang the coat on a hanger if the parents says "suspend your coat".​—msh210℠ 17:27, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

If you can find documented use of suspend to mean hang clothing properly then we should include it. I also think that copy should say "especially on white paper" and that take out the garbage is idiomatic. DAVilla 04:14, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Fwiw, the sense was added in this diff.—msh210℠ 20:21, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Merge definitions. --EncycloPetey 17:32, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Deleted (somewhat merged).​—msh210℠ 18:27, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] rate adjustment cap

SoP.—msh210℠ 21:36, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

delete No, wait! How is the user supposed to know it's not a type of headgear? DCDuring TALK 23:07, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

As a non-financial-type person, I would have had no idea that this referred to a limit on one day's rate adjustment, rather than over (say) the entire period of the loan. If the definition is correct, I would be inclined to keep the entry as more specific than the sum of its parts. -- Visviva 03:07, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

No, no. As with almost any long-term contract, there are unsurprising conventional intervals at which the rate on an adjustable-rate mortgage (ARM) or other variable-rate loan can be adjusted: monthly, bi-monthly, quarterly, semi-annually, annually, biennially; possibly starting after some initial period. A very large business loan might have more frequent adjustments. It is just a "cap" on the amount of the "adjustment" of the interest "rate". There is plenty of business jargon to include, but I can't see this. DCDuring TALK 04:18, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

If some mortgage broker told me "this loan has a rate adjustment cap of 2%" without further explanation, I would probably assume that applied to the lifetime of the loan, rather than a single adjustment period. That would be a rather serious, perhaps bankruptcy-inducing, mistake.

That said, I'm not sure the definition is strictly accurate; "rate adjustment cap" is quite rare in use, and about 90% of the time it appears with some modifier ("annual", "period", "lifetime", etc.) which makes the specific meaning clear. I suspect the remaining cases would be clear from context. On the other hand, it seems clear that we should have an entry for adjustment cap, which is fairly common, and clearly has a more precise meaning than the sum of its parts. Compare google:"a rate adjustment cap of" (1 hit) and google:"an adjustment cap of" (28 hits). Perhaps this entry could be redirected to that one? -- Visviva 04:46, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Deleted. Adjustment cap added to WT:REE with explanation.​—msh210℠ 00:54, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

[edit] alphabetical order

Per asciibetical order RFD above. You can (and people do!) order by practically anything, e.g. numerical order, ASCII order, ANSI order, Unicode order, Hebrew alphabetical order... Equinox 22:36, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

But can't this be used specifically to mean the standard human-readable alphabet sequence (A,a,B,b), as opposed to asciibetical order and other technically "alphabetical" sequences? I mean, asciibetical order is alphabetical, but it specifically is not what is meant by "alphabetical order". -- Visviva 17:03, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Yes ("data is sorted in ASCII collated order rather than alphabetical order"), but that's still a matter for alphabetical versus asciibetical; the fact that it's an order is still SoP, isn't it? By the above token it seems we should also have alphabetical sort and asciibetical sort; alphabetically arranged and asciibetically arranged, etc. etc. At some point we have to give the reader credit for being able to put two words together. Equinox 17:23, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict):

IOW, even so, isn't the distinction/semantic relation in each case entirely in the adjective alone? DCDuring TALK 17:27, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

It should be kept, as a set phrase (but probably not the other phrases mentioned above). And how could you guess what alphabetical order means from alphabetical and order? It seems impossible, you can guess that the order is related to the alphabet, that's all. Lmaltier 17:33, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Keep In English, we usually use alphabetical order to mean in the order of the English alphabet, and not of just any alphabet. At the very least, we need this entry with a usage note to indicate such. The "alphabetical order" of Hungarian, Estonian, and even Spanish will throw many English speakers. Additionally, as Lmaltier notes, this is more than sum of parts. Alphabetical means "pertaining to the alphabet", but alphabetical order means that items have been sorted in sequence according to their initial letter. This is more information than is contained in the components. --EncycloPetey 17:30, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

But the same initial-letter implication is equally true for constructs like alphabetical listing, alphabetical sort, alphabetical catalogue, alphabetical index... do you support such entries as well? Equinox 17:40, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

No. An alphabetical listing is "a listing that is alphabetical". An alphabetical index is "an index that is alphabetical". But alphabetical order is NOT merely "an order that is alphabetical". Part of the reason for that order has so many meanings, but part of it is the slight idiomaticity and use as a set phrase. The correpsonding meaning of alphabetical is a back-sense from alphabetical order (as Visviva notes below). --EncycloPetey 17:48, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Then how is this — { Hebrew, Cyrillic, English, Spanish } — not an "alphabetical listing"? It's a listing of alphabets! Equinox 17:53, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

It would be an "alphabet list", not an "alphabetical listing", except for the fact that Cyrillic is a script, not an alphabet. There is more than one alphabet in the Cyrillic script, and these don't all include the same letters. --EncycloPetey 16:57, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

EP seems to believe that, for multi-word entries that include even one polysemic word, the potential for confusion among benighted users is sufficient to warrant inclusion, even though this is not to be found in WT:CFI. Until such time as this criterion is in WT:CFI, I would have thought such argument would be a mere make-weight, not determinative. DCDuring TALK 18:05, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

You neglected to read this sentence in WT:CFI (under Idiomaticity): "Compounds are generally idiomatic, even when the meaning can be clearly expressed in terms of the parts. The reason is that the parts often have several possible senses, but the compound is often restricted to only some combinations of them." Since this argument is in CFI, I assume your position is now to support inclusion. --EncycloPetey 06:00, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

I may be wrong, but I've always thought of the "alphabetical" in phrases like "alphabetical sorting" as being derived from alphabetical order, and basically meaning "of, pertaining to or following alphabetical order". That's certainly the way the concepts are structured in my benighted little brain; whether it corresponds to the actual historical derivation I don't know. -- Visviva 17:42, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Of the nine OneLook dictionary entries I looked at 4 had only the "order" sense and the balance had the two senses that our entry now has (thanks, EP). No other dictionary includes alphabetical order as a related/derived term, though it appears in a few of the usage examples. I think that does indicate that most lexicographers view it as SoP/non-idiomatic. DCDuring TALK 18:05, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

To make clearer what I mean: in an alphabetical order, you give priority to the first letter then, if needed, to the second letter, etc. This is essential to the meaning of alphabetical order, and cannot be deduced from alphabetical, nor from order. Lmaltier 07:20, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Right. The list

a I am an be he is we are has she the was you been have they were

is ordered according to the sequence of the alphabet, but is a numerical rather than lexicographical ordering. The question is if alphabetical conveys this information. If one of its definitions should include the idea of established orderings, then this term could be deleted'. On the other hand, a lot of these collocations would make great phrasebook entries. DAVilla 12:17, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Even beyond that, in English alphabetical order for surnames, Mc / Mac is treated separately from M, so there is actually more than one alphabetical order in English, one of which does not follow the sequence of the alphabet. --EncycloPetey 07:25, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Delete.—msh210℠ 16:58, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Delete  This is a lovely sum-of-parts phrase, where part B clearly points to sense 2 of part A. —Michael Z. 2009-03-24 17:25 z

[edit] glitch

Rfd-redundant. Video game sense seems to be some kind of special case of first sense or an idiosyncratic usage, but I leave this to specialists in this context. DCDuring TALK 17:21, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Not sure. Look at the example sentences. Whether they are typical and reasonable I don't know, but if so it seems (for the noun) we can "perform a glitch", as though it's a technique or skill; for sense 1 we would say something like "cause a glitch". Same applies to the verb, where we have "glitch into" and glitching appears to be a deliberate process or action rather than a momentary tweak. Equinox 17:27, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

If we had citations of real usage in that sense, I could agree. I was hoping that someone could vouch for the usage. DCDuring TALK 14:50, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Did you even look? http://www.google.com/search?q=%22he%20glitched%22&sa=N&hl=en&tab=pw gives lots for just one form, http://www.google.com/search?num=50&hl=en&safe=off&q=%22he+glitched+into%22&btnG=Search has really precise examples. The old form of the word was used to reference a thing that malfunctioned, now is used to reference a person doing a specific action. --Connel MacKenzie 02:20, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

I hadn't look. I often leave senses outside my experience for someone else to cite. I thought we had some folks who like or know gaming terms. DCDuring TALK 11:34, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

[edit] hippie movement

SoP, like feminist movement, antiwar movement. Even its creator wasn't sure about it :) Equinox 18:14, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

I dunno. Not all "hippie" "movement"s are the "hippie movement" (fried egg). Meets the oh-so-rigorous two-sided polysemy test. The eight senses of "movement" have to be laboriously checked to see how they correspond with the two senses of "hippie", requiring as many as 16 efforts to construct phrasal meanings and compare to the user's source or intended meaning. Although there isn't a WP article with the exact title, there is w:History of the hippie movement. It's also a whole populated (99 members, 7 subcategories) category on Wikipedia. No question as to its attestability. I'm sure it would meet the single-word translation test in a quorum of languages. Doesn't it seem like a set phrase to you? DCDuring TALK 19:45, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

This isn't an attack on you by any means, but IMO that's ridiculous. Suppose I speak of "castle walls", a very common phrase; well, it's not the sense of "castle" as in "move the king in chess", so do we need an entry for that? How about "lentil soup"? Well, it's not the figurative sense of "soup" as in primordial mess, so we need an entry. "Cow's milk"? Because the cow isn't an ugly woman. Just madness. Equinox 22:41, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

I am interested in discovering some rules that would allow us to include worthwhile multi-word, not obviously idiomatic, noun-noun phrases. This entry is as good a single test case as any as to what entries we find worthwhile and what rules might permit them. As far as I can tell it doesn't meet any of our idiom criteria, but it does meet all of our proposed relaxed criteria that have been bruited. I really don't know what folks think about this one. It seems not harmful and neither useful nor useless to me. DCDuring TALK 00:24, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

It puzzles me that you can say this doesn't meet any of our idiom criteria just after saying that it meets the fried egg test. -- Visviva 05:00, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

But it isn't technical, unless nostalgia or sociology count. DCDuring TALK 19:51, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

History isn't a technical field? -- Visviva 05:00, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

There are many movements in which hippies participate, even today, yet there is no longer a "hippie movement". Thus, as DCDuring notes, it is significantly more specific than the sum of its parts. Note that it is also generally the hippie movement; if it weren't usually written in lower case we would not hesitate to treat it as a proper noun. By the same token I think a useful definition could be written for "feminist movement" and possibly even for "antiwar movement" (though that one is trickier). All that said, the entry as written is not particularly helpful. Neutral. -- Visviva 05:00, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Frankly, I thought that I had mispoken when I said that it had met the "fried egg" test. I sometimes think there is a difference between the "fried egg" test and mere one-sided polysemy. Nobody has found it necessary to clarify this for me. But one narrow reading of the "fried egg" test would require:

1. two distinct attestable uses of the term, eg:
   1. "egg that is fried" (SoP) and
   2. "an egg that is shallow fried" (whatever that means, I think a photo might be necessary at the entry).
2. the more common one (2) being a subclass of the other, and
3. the sense of the modifier (shallow-fried) as used in the phrase not attestable with other nouns.

Is this what the "fried egg" test means? DCDuring TALK 11:59, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

That is basically my reading of it, yes; the key thing being that a fried egg is not strictly fried+egg for any combination of senses. Thus, there is no risk of the reductio ad absurdum to which the polysemy criterion is subject (per Equinox above), which means we can dispense with shades of gray: something either meets the fried egg test, and therefore merits inclusion, or it doesn't. But interpretations of the test seem to differ from one Wiktionarian to the next. This is not particularly surprising; how often do more than two Wiktionarians agree on anything?  :-D -- Visviva 12:28, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

The [[fried egg]] vs. RfD nom decision is a bit hard for me to grasp in part because the definition is/was worded using the UK term shallow-fry. I'm still not sure I know what fried egg in its non-SoP and non-golf sense really means. Is the picture right? Or does the term just exclude deep-fried eggs?

Assuming the Visviva/During reading of the "fried egg" test is the sense of the entire court, then don't we have to attest that "hippie movement" is actually used in some other way(s), using the just the applicable senses? DCDuring TALK 12:53, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

My understanding comes from w:Fried egg: "Scrambled eggs, though fried, are not considered 'fried eggs'." That is, I take the "fried egg" test to apply when the resulting term is more specific than its parts, even if you choose the right senses for the parts, provided that this specificity is linguistic (the term could logically have other meanings, but doesn't) rather than natural (there's only one item that could be described by the term, and it just happens to be fairly specific).

The problem is that fried egg then fails the "fried egg" test, because one of the senses of fried is "(specifically, of an egg) Being a fried egg. / He always ate his eggs fried, never scrambled." We were missing said sense until just now, but that's a fact of Wiktionary, not a fact of English.

—Ruakh_TALK 14:16, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

I think it would meet the Visviva/During interpretation, because the sense of "fried" at fried is "fried egg"-specific. Of course, as currently defined at [[fried egg]], it is SoP because scrambled eggs and omelets are shallow-fried. The test can't be that all fried eggs are "shallow-fried", not "deep-fried". If we are going to rely on the "fried egg" test right, we need to make sure that the case is accurate and well written. Is the correct definition: "An egg, fried, with an unbroken yolk."? DCDuring TALK 16:34, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Empire State Building

WT:CFI#Names_of_specific_entities This is specifically listed as an example of something we should not include. Genius. Equinox ◑ 00:30, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

The problem is in WT:CFI. It's been cited in attributive-type use, mostly with citations of "an Empire State Building". See the citations page. DCDuring TALK 00:42, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Oops, my fault. The example at WT:CFI prompted me to have a look, and so I compiled citations:Empire State Building (I see I was too lazy to format them correctly). I don't know if they're all suitably attributive, but all invoke the reader's understanding of what an Empire State Building is. Also, the theme of building one out of toothpicks seem to be pretty common. Never thought of updating the guideline after that. —Michael Z. 2009-02-23 01:24 z

I'm a little unclear as whether the "an Empire State Building" citations have won acceptance as indicating attributive use. I think they should. I have just cited Eiffel Tower with great ease using http://corpus.byu.edu/. It allows a search for a word or phrase followed by a particular PoS, eg "Eiffel Tower" followed by a noun, to find attributive use as an adjective. DCDuring TALK 01:40, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

I believe they have always been accepted as such, in that no entry with a sufficient number of such citations has ever been deleted. This is as it should be IMO; whether considered strictly "attributive" or not, such citations show that there is something useful for us to document, beyond the simple encyclopedic facts. Keep as cited, and let's mention its use as a byword for a large, impressive structure in the entry. -- Visviva 15:10, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Delete. Unlike the precedent one this is no wonder of the world. Bogorm 14:33, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

"Membership in the set of wonders of the world (ancient, modern, or natural)", is not a member of the set of criteria for inclusion, but is in the set of red herrings with respect to inclusion. DCDuring TALK 14:48, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Bogorm, compare the respective citations pages. I did a bit of work to show that Empire State Building is part of the language, in a small way. Can you add some quotes which shows how Statue of Zeus at Olympia is used in English? If not, then it should go, because this is not an encyclopedia. —Michael Z. 2009-03-24 16:17 z

Keep and change CFI. DAVilla 06:10, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

[edit] dummy node

1. Definition is wrong: a dummy node is not a "programming technique"; it is a node. 2. Sum of parts. It's a node (any kind, in any data structure) that is a dummy. We can also have (in various other data structures) dummy elements, dummy keys, dummy values, etc. ad infinitum. Equinox ◑ 20:29, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Delete. 63.95.64.254 04:07, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Deleted. Equinox ◑ 00:50, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

[edit] tool-assisted speedrun

SoP: it's a speedrun (playing through a video game as fast as possible) where the player is assisted by the use of tools (such as the ability to rewind to a previous point when recording, or something that handles jumping or firing automatically — it can be any tool). Equinox ◑ 21:19, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Delete. 63.95.64.254 03:34, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Deleted. Equinox ◑ 00:56, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

[edit] romaji (Japanese)

As the entry says, misspelling. But merely being a misspelling does not warrant an entry. Needless to say, it is not listed in the first five Japanese dictionaries at hand, nor do their corresponding entries at rōmaji say anything about "common misspellings":

1. Nihon Kokugo Daijiten
2. Daijirin
3. Daijisen
4. Shinmeikai Kokugo Jiten
5. Meikyō Kokugo Jiten

Should be removed. Bendono 09:30, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

We’ve discussed this issue several times. It isn’t a misspelling, it’s an alternative spelling. The macron is difficult to type for most people and it is common to use ou, ô, or simply o instead. Keep Japanese romaji with a link to rōmaji. But if you consider it to be a common misspelling, we do keep common misspellings with links to the correct spelling. Keep in either case. —Stephen 09:44, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

If anyone can show that this is actually used in writing Japanese (outside of the limited contexts in which all languages are occasionally transcribed into another writing system), then that would certainly change the debate. But so far no such evidence has been presented even for the legitimate romaji forms (despite a great deal of bloviating from people whose opinions I would normally respect), let alone for these debased ones. -- Visviva 09:54, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

I will have to disagree about being alternative spellings. However, I will agree that typing diacritics can be difficult for some. Redirects (or See...) are generally frowned upon here, but I would support them for the purpose of usability.

If my original comment was not clear, the corresponding ろまじ and ロマジ for which this romanization gives as romaji are equally unattested. Bendono 10:12, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Delete this and any similar cases. The English entry (which should sail through RFV) ensures that anyone who lands on this page will find the information they need , whether directly or indirectly. The farce of "romaji" entries is bad enough without including ad hoc forms that don't even comply with the standard romanization scheme. If we keep this, I should get to upload 10 different romanizations for every Korean word. -- Visviva 09:54, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

That’s fine for this particular case, but most of these are Japanese only and do not have English entries. Native Japanese-speakers know the spelling and know how to type not only the kanji and kana, but also the romaji...but English Wiktionary is not for them, it is for native English-speakers, few of whom can type kanji or kana, and most of whom don’t know how to type macrons or even when a macron should be typed. The spelling without the macron is to make it easier for English-speakers to access the Japanese words that they are interested in. We should keep all the spellings without macrons just as we do with Latin and Old English.

Korean now has a very nice standard transliteration that uses no diacritics and that anybody can type, and that is enough to make Korean accessible. Likewise, there is no need to have any of the other many spellings that many Japanese words can have. We don’t need roumaji or rômaji, lomaji, loumaji, and so on. Having the one common spelling that most English-speakers use, which is romaji, is quite enough. —Stephen 10:54, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

I could agree with that, but only if I was convinced that the others would be removed. If a specific policy were enacted which did away with diacritics altogether, and only allowed for non-diacritic entries, then that would be something. However, while I know little about Japanese, I think that there would be some folks who would disagree with that. Note that Latin and Old English do not lack macrons and such in entry titles to make them easier to find, but rather because they are an academic convention which did not exist in native writings. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 11:12, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

'Delete, per Visviva. This is completely untenable. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 09:57, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Keep as macrons and such are not used in all forms of romanji, some forms use no macrons at all. It is a non-Hepburn and stripped-Hepburn spelling. As shown in this travel blog: [3][4] - it is used in written form. This translation chart also does not use macrons: [5]. There's also this that explains IME Romaji [6] 76.66.201.179 09:39, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Delete It is a misspelling. Noone is denying that. It is disturbing to think that such discussion needs to be done to correct this. All forms of romanization (Hepburn, Kunrei, and Nihonshiki) distinguish between short and long vowels. It is crucial to the understanding of the word. As Hepburn is the most common, as well as being used here, the macron too is required. This misspelling must be removed. 60.45.70.240 04:42, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Delete per Bendono and Visviva. In addition, the listed ろまじ and ロマジ are also not in any Japanese dictionary.118.103.10.2 04:36, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

[edit] March 2009

[edit] infinite recursion

SoP, not idiomatic. (Note: I also just removed a secondary computing sense, since the first sense says it all for computing as well.) P.S. Is this a reasonable sort of RFD nomination? Connel has been remarking (1, 2) that SoP isn't sufficient as a nomination, whereas quite a few such RFDs went ahead before without question. Where I say that, I do also mean to suggest that it's not idiomatic (cf. CFI's "this is a door" example). Equinox ◑ 21:01, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Since this is a technical term I think it should be kept. I found SB's computing definition much more informative than the generic definition that remains. If it were just the generic definition that were required then of course, delete it, but being a technical term the other makes it worth keeping. DAVilla 02:45, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Even though it's just a recursion (usual computing sense) that happens to be infinite? Whether you're a programmer or not, these two words together are still an adjective qualifying a noun, just like recursive loop, infinite loop, recursive method — not an inextricable two-word phrase. The description might have been useful encyclopaedically but that's Wikipedia's area. Equinox ◑ 02:50, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm reconsidering. DAVilla 13:25, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

It isn't "recursion without limits", infinite recursion is the endless repetition of a specific instance of recursion. I had to think for a bit on this one too, but I think the combination is specific enough compared to the breadth of the components that it qualifies under CFI. This specific conecpt is very important in both computing and mathematics. --EncycloPetey 18:16, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Well, I don't think it has to be a specific instance. Why do you say that? On what evidence do you base it? I think it usually refers to a repeated specific instance, but that might well be something you take from context and domain-specific knowledge; it doesn't necessarily rule out other possibilities. Equinox ◑ 00:25, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

But if we have no evidence that those "other possibilities" are ever intended, then the point is moot. Our entries describe how the words are actually used, not how they might be construed. --EncycloPetey 05:57, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Okay. How do you feel about This recursion is infinite, or recursive in an infinite way? Do these indicate the same sort of thing as infinite recursion, and if so don't they suggest that it's a sense of one word or the other, and not this specific two-word combination? Equinox ◑ 22:15, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

It's taken me some time to think this over. I have to conclude that "This recursion is infinite" does not mean the same thing to me as infinite recursion (in the mathematical sense), but I'm having a difficult time articulating why that is and how the two constructions differ in meaning. I can say that the sentence seems very awkward to me. On the other hand, "recursive in an infinite way" seems to describe the same concept, and "This recursion is infinite" does seem to convey the computing sense of infinite recursion. I wish we had more mathematicians active here. --EncycloPetey 05:06, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Keep. The difference is that infinite recursion applies to a single construct or occasionally a tight system (such as two interdependent functions) which never exits, but typically doing some repetitive, misdirected calculation at the same time, whereas a program can continue without end for other reasons, such as never receiving any input. Also, this is generally seen as a fault (unless the meta language is specifically designed to handle it, but those languages are more mathematical than the usual iterative style), whereas a program that is designed to run forever, though it recurses infinitely, by doing useful work is not an infinite recursion in the same meaning, only in a broader sense. DAVilla 13:23, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Considering what happened earlier today with {{context}} does anyone else think this discussion is somewhat ironic? — Carolina wren discussió 05:08, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

[edit] secret/sacred

Not apparent to me that the given citations are anything other than "secret and/or sacred", which would be sum of parts and not plausibly idiomatic. But perhaps this does have a specific use in the Australian context? -- Visviva 18:23, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Hyphenated form seems somewhat common: [7] This caught my eye in particular (from the Charlesworth book): "The term 'secret-sacred' is well known in the literature on Aboriginal Australia and is used to designate either men's or women's religious knowledge." Equinox ◑ 19:15, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Strong delete (or better, rename) only one citation in the article, which doesn't seem to be anything put an abbreviated form of secret or sacred. Mglovesfun (talk) 19:18, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] online transaction processing

Based on a WP article. Not, IMO, a suitable dictionary headword. Equinox ◑ 00:19, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Seems like a specific technical term to me. As such, keep. —Stephen 20:48, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Really? Seems like rubbish to me, just an obvious term defined in business speak. Of course, it could be technical, but I'd like to know for sure. 63.95.64.254 03:08, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Delete processing transactions online ("in real time" - we should have that def?). Used to distinguish it from the old method of processing transactions in batches. Conrad.Irwin 00:31, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Delete, as above. No real meaning in English. Mglovesfun 16:48, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

[edit] tell a lie

Um...tell + a lie? Tell lies was already deleted, so why should this be kept? -- Frous 00:53, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

The RFD for tell a lie doesn't seem to be available (it's not on the talk page and didn't appear with a quick site-specific Google) but I dare say this is deletable for identical reasons. In the absence of those reasons, delete because it doesn't suggest anything beyond tell + a + lie. The person who's about to suggest that it might be something about William Tell and a sunken part of a golf course can eat a cancer. Equinox ◑ 00:59, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Special:Whatlinkshere/tell lies leads one eventually to the previous RFD. It appears that at least one participant would have been more inclined to keep this entry than that one. -- Visviva 05:03, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

As the creator of the page, I added it because the antonym of tell a lie is tell the truth - this perhaps couldn't be assumed from just knowing the words tell, a, and lie. Hence Keep --Jackofclubs 09:19, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Delete, per my argument at the previous rfd. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 09:55, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Delete, per Atelaes. Although "tell lies" had a very small amount of merit worth discussing, "tell a lie" does not. -- ALGRIF talk 14:12, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Keep. I don't think the differences between "he lied" and "he told a lie" are predictable from their literal meanings. —Ruakh_TALK 22:10, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

May I ask what that difference would be? The only distinction I'm picking up is the latter seems to imply a single incident, while the former could be a bit broader. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 05:37, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

I think there are at least two differences. One is that "to tell a lie" is usually more abstract — the instant you're lying to someone, it's just "to lie". Another is that "to tell a lie" is a bit more childish/child-directed; adults don't "tell a lie", they just "lie". —Ruakh_TALK 12:53, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Not really. You can "tell (someone) a lie", and it's just as adult to "never tell a lie". Out of everything suggested here and in previous RFD, the only thing I see that's clearly worth keeping is tell stories which has a least one meaning distinct from tell a story. 63.95.64.254 02:44, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Hmm....I must admit there is something to that. It's incredibly subtle, but it's there. However, I just don't know if it's specific to this construction. I admittedly can't think of a good example off the top of my head, but I wonder if these distinctions are in the grammar, and that there are parallels. I'm sorry, but it's just not convincing enough for me to change my vote. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 04:24, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Redirect to I tell a lie for the aid of those who may look it up s.v. tell a lie (or delete). (Redirection summary should indicate RFD failure, "do not re-create".)—msh210℠ 17:07, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Delete, as above. Mglovesfun 16:48, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Upgrade to strong delete, hence closing discussion with a deletion. Mglovesfun (talk) 09:31, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] collective investment scheme

Seems like collective + investment scheme (which may also be SoP). Can anyone provide cites showing otherwise? DCDuring TALK 15:55, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Or (collective + investment) + scheme, or some obvious mixture of the two. Delete. 63.95.64.254 01:52, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Did you know that, per WP, investment funds, managed funds, mutual funds come under the head of "collective investment scheme"? I did not. I still do not know what exactly comes under the head, which is why I think the head is worth having a definition. Anyway, here comes a quotation that suggests a need for a definition, even if not the present definition:

1. • 2003, Jonathan Fisher, Jane Bewsey, The Law of Investor Protection^[8]:

     The definition of primary importance is of course the definition of "collective investment scheme" itself. That is to be found in s.235 of FSMA 2000.

Looking at Google books shows further occurrences of "collective investment scheme" that suggest that the phrase is a set one, with a meaning that can decide the result of a trial at a court.

Some of the Google books actually define the term.

In the quotation above, "FSMA 2000" refers to "The Financial Services and Markets Act 2000", a UK act. --Dan Polansky 19:10, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

• Keep under the emerging inclusion of (or re-emphasis on) the "legal definition" criterion for inclusion as an idiom (Item 4 on our rendition of the Pawley list). See #ground beef, WT:BP#Legal definitions.. DCDuring TALK 18:18, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

[edit] -nomics

All uses shown are blends, not stem+suffix. Perhaps another def.? DCDuring TALK 18:19, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

I can see that for Reaganomics, Clintonomics and Nixonomics; but Thatchernomics, Obamanomics, and Rogernomics seem more plausibly affix-like (though they are also plausible as blends). OED has this sense and an older one from -nomy with derivations like pyronomics. Color me neutral on the economics sense; it seems bogus, but on the other hand the morphology of these compounds is rather imponderable and this can be found in multiple reputable dictionaries (at least the OED and Webster's New International). -- Visviva 04:29, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

"Standardized" blends (you'll never see a blend of economics that goes -onomics unless the master word ends in -on or a similar syllable) tend to evolve toward a very strong suffixlike quality. Compare eco-, which one could argue actually evolved from blends with ecology, not the actual Greek root (I'm dubious about that purported French etymology... In any case, my Robert marks it as "extracted from écologie"). Circeus 05:13, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

[edit] cooperation

Moved from RFV. DCDuring says "Five senses that seem to me included in two real senses." DAVilla 05:22, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

I agree that only the two uncontested senses are worth keeping, but would this mess up the translations? Perhaps the sociological and ecological ones are different words in some languages. Equinox ◑ 15:23, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

I would not worry about translations. The tagged senses have currently only two translations. If other languages need several words to cover a sense, they should simply be all listed, and explanations given in appropriate foreign-language entries. --Hekaheka 23:50, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, you're quite right. Delete. Equinox ◑ 22:10, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm okay with deleting these without prejudice. I don't doubt the definition could be more finely splintered, but I would want to see examples to make sure that the way it was divided was appropriate. 63.95.64.254 02:53, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

[edit] gone winchester

No citations are provided; the citations I found ('A fighter which has gone "Winchester" (ie, expended its air to air ordnance)' 2002: Brassey's Modern Fighters), ('By that time, Langston had gone "Winchester," naval aviator parlance for being out of ordnance' 2007: Inside the danger zone) imply the actual phrase is simply Winchester, and should be added to that page, instead. 207.233.32.18 (really, User:JesseW/not logged in) 03:40, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Zephyr

RfD of two senses:

1. A motor car made (some time ago) by Ford in the United Kingdom.

   Keep, we have Honda, Ford, Toyota, Fiat, Mini, Mini Cooper, Jag, VW, Vauxhall, Chevy, even 98 Oldsmobile. There's plenty of others. --Dmol 01:42, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

   "Otherstuff" doesn't apply - we have a very specific CFI for brand names. bd2412 T 22:08, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

2. A small town in India.

If we accept these, then præsumably we shall also have to accept many of the other senses catalogued by Wikipedia. † ﴾^(u):Raifʻhār ^(t):Doremítzwr﴿ 00:57, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Move to RfV. DCDuring TALK 01:57, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Agreed, RfV. bd2412 T 22:08, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

RFV the first and delete the second along with any other "small town" definitions that aren't significant for reasons of etymology. 63.95.64.254 00:55, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Moved to RFV. Equinox ◑ 00:41, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

[edit] asdf

Sense 1: "The first four letter on the home row on a QWERTY keyboard, and the start letters for a one's left hand when doing touch typing." This is not a dictionary definition of asdf as a word. It is a mention, not a use, just as the scale CDEFGAB — while familiar to musicians — is not a dictionary word. Contrast qwerty, which is actually used as a word to denote a style of keyboard. Equinox ◑ 22:03, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

I can find a (very) few attributive uses such as “resting on the ASDF row of the keyboard”,[9] but I think it passes CFI. —Michael Z. 2009-03-24 17:16 z

Isn't "resting on the ASDF row" rather like "filed under the Flowers category"? Again, a mention rather than a use. Equinox ◑ 22:19, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Not unless you have a very unconventional keyboard. The flowers category contains all of the flowers and none of the non-flowers. So that could be an analogy for “resting on the asdfghjkl;, row.” —Michael Z. 2009-03-24 23:05 z

No, the Flowers category might not contain every possible flower. It merely contains at least some of them. Likewise, we could probably talk about the "Q side of the keyboard" (only one Google match, admittedly, but perhaps someone can come up with an equivalent but better example); it doesn't mean that the entire side consists of one huge Q key. Equinox ◑ 23:10, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

I can't follow your analogy, unless you mean that the flowers category includes flowers and giraffes and flathead screws, just as the asdf category includes a's, s's, d's, f's, and also g's, h's, j's etc.

asdf is an attributive adjective derived from a representative subset of the contents of the referent, just like qwerty; asdf row is like qwerty keyboard. Three cites meets CFI, and we've only counted ones with the phrase asdf row. —Michael Z. 2009-03-24 23:49 z

RFV looking for cites like this, use not mention. DAVilla 08:59, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Quick cites for consideration:

1. “Keep shoulders relaxed, upper arms by the side of the trunk, and forearms level with the ASDF row of the keyboard.” (1 occurrence on p 509).
2. “The height of the desk or table should be such as to allow the forearm to be horizontal when the fingers are resting on the guide keys - the asdf row of the keyboard.” (1 occurrence on p 139).
3. “Wrists should be straight when fingers are resting on the ASDF row of the keyboard.”[10]
4. “In contrast to QWERTY, the most frequently used letters – AOEU – are placed in the QWERTY ASDF home row where typists most often go to rest their hands.”[11]

In the last one, “QWERTY ASDF home row” is actually referring to the position of letters on a Dvorak layout – so ASDF is a name for the physical row, with reference to the conventional type of keyboard, where the actual corresponding letters are AOEU (followed by IDHTNS_).

Admittedly, the use of this as a name is rare, it's very common to see “place the fingers of your left hand on the a s d f keys,”[12] or “Introducing the Home Row with ‘ASDF’.”[13] —Michael Z. 2009-03-26 18:11 z

All of these citations are for ASDF row. DAVilla 02:30, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Sum-of-parts in each, I think, since the attributive occurs with either row of the keyboard or home row. Even if it weren't, the meaning of row would be self-evident from the context of typewriting tutorial. So perhaps we add a restrictive label typewriting. —Michael Z. 2009-04-08 02:43 z

Found a different one, but only one occurrence: “There are some software available in the market which teach you how to master the keyboard, but the old asdf method of typing would be sufficient.”[14] CFI doesn't say the author has to write well... —Michael Z. 2009-04-08 02:59 z

ASDF keys, ASDF row, ASDF method looks like it's good enough to pass attestation. I'm not sure if it has to be considered idiomatic in each case. I'd guess some of the people here would say yes. A solid quotation for "ASDF keys" may be different enough from "CTRL keys" to make a case, and the Dvorak quotation abstract enough to require some prior knowledge. But this is right on the line. 72.177.113.91 01:16, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

[edit] super colossal

The noun doesn't appear to exist at all, like a few of this user's super- creations (e.g. original wrong definition of supercelestial). As far as the adjective goes: supercolossal, fine, but when we split it into two words aren't we dealing with a sort of adverbial super? (I see that our adverb entry there is wrong too: it's an adjective. Curses.) Anyway, you can say "super X" for basically any adjective "X", so I see this two-word form as non-idiomatic sum of parts. Equinox ◑ 00:59, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Supercolossal NEVER was a noun. It's literally two adjectives or one prefix and adjective put together into a word. Somebody must have put the wrong definition when is should be SUPERCOLOSSUS. Steel Blade 01:04, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Oh, I apologise if the noun wasn't yours. I thought you'd created the article. Equinox ◑ 01:09, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Still RFDing on the basis that "super colossal" is the adverb super plus the adjective colossal, regardless of the separate existence of the single word supercolossal. Equinox ◑ 21:32, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Delete per Equinox and common sense ;-). --Duncan 22:11, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Deleted. Equinox ◑ 00:31, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

[edit] certificat de travail

not idiomatic. DCDuring TALK 20:15, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

• It's not a ‘work certificate’. It's proof that you're in a job. Ƿidsiþ 20:22, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
• Keep but change the definition: this is a set phrase but, in its commonest sense, you get this certificate when you leave your job. Another, very different, sense is about candidates to immigration: this certificate proves that they have found a job, and they will be able to work once in their new country. I think that the proof that you're in a job is called an attestation de travail. Lmaltier 22:20, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Sounds like the British P45 perhaps. Equinox ◑ 22:27, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

That was my first thought. If it's a set name for the document then it should stay with a correct definition. I don't speak French so I won't vote either way.--Dmol 23:05, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

We certainly have entries like [[1040]] and [[W-2]]. Is it a legal/administrative term? Is there an appropriate wikipedia entry? DCDuring TALK 23:30, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

legal/administrative term? Yes (in France). See the Licenciement article (French Wikipedia). Lmaltier 08:02, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Keep, not just the sum of its parts. It has a cultural meaning. Mglovesfun 23:38, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

This is a French definition of the document in question:

Selon le code du travail, lorsqu’un salarié quitte une entreprise, son employeur doit lui fournir un certificat de travail. Celui-ci doit mentionner le nom de l’employeur, la date à laquelle le certificat a été fait, les nom et prénom du salarié, les dates auxquelles il a travaillé dans l’entreprise, la nature de l’emploi occupé.

It is not exactly the same as P45, as it contains no salary inormation. It merely states that the person has been employed by someone between the given dates and the kind of work done. I don't know what this kind of certificate is called in English. --Hekaheka 18:17, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] lulu

Does the acronymic sense belong on this page, or is it "LULU"? Either way, the formatting and capitalisation are unnecessary. If it does not belong here, then the terms in the "see also" section need to be moved out too. — Paul G 10:28, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

This term long predates the common use of acronyms, so the above must be in error. Or perhaps what was meant is that there is also an acronym "LULU", but this is not mentioned in the article. Surely this is a useful article, but I was hoping to find the origen(sp) of the term. David R. Ingham 06:47, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

[edit] April 2009

[edit] diputs

Just because one guy writes a word backwards doesn’t make it suitable to be in a dictionary. H. (talk) 21:05, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Delete: a nonce word, and not in any hugely significant work. Equinox ◑ 21:06, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

The quotation provided from Google Books seems reasonable to me, and it’s an interesting usage. —Stephen 12:20, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

RFV. DAVilla 00:58, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

[edit] extenuating circumstances

Was a poorly formed IP addition. Was tempted to simply delete as SoP, but thought I'd bring it here for discussion instead to see if people think it is a specific enough legal term to warrant keeping as it is being linked to. — Carolina wren discussió 01:58, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Keep, commonly used law term, as far as I know. If it doesn't warrant its own entry, an appendix of words related to law should include it. — [ ric ] opiaterein — 12:32, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Is it listed in legal dictionaries? Then it passes the lemming test. DAVilla 01:07, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes, in 3 OneLook "legal dictionaries". DCDuring TALK 22:49, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Keep, however I don't think you can have just one extenuating circumstance, but I'd have said I hear this phrase quite often in a legal/political context. Mglovesfun 22:10, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

I've just pressed preview and it's coming up in blue. Crap. Mglovesfun 22:10, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Is the death of a family member an extenuating circumstance? —Stephen 22:25, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

[edit] his nibs

Shouldn't this just be at nibs with usage examples or redirects for "his/her/my/your/their((/our?) nibs"? DCDuring TALK 02:40, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Well it is an awkward way to refer to someone, kinda like Your Majesty. It should probably be redirected, to nibs or where else I'm not certain. DAVilla 03:00, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Keep as a set phrase. It's quite common in speech, but as it's informal it might be hard to cite in print. I don't think I have ever heard anything other than his, and would challenge her/my/your/their etc.--Dmol 04:41, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

This is not RfV. It is easy enough to cite, just as one could cite "his holiness" or "his car". One could also cite "her nibs", "my nibs", "your nibs", and "their nibs" (but probably not "our nibs"}. All might warrant a redirect to nibs, which has the appropriate sense. I don't think an entry at [[one's nibs]] has much value. DCDuring TALK 09:59, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

There's a world of difference between "his holiness" and "his car". You don't talk to your car, much less address it with a proper title. I'm sure Dmol means he's never heard anything other than "his nibs" as a form of address. 72.177.113.91 00:46, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

That's exactly what I meant. I have never heard "her nibs", "my nibs", "your nibs", and "their nibs" or "our nibs". But "his nibs" is common, and means exactly what it says in the definition.--Dmol 11:02, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

That you haven't heard of them is a useful datapoint. Perhaps "nibs" is no longer productive, like "word" in my word.

But my preliminary research seemed to show "her nibs" to be almost as common as his nibs. The other forms also would probably be attestable, if not common. Dictionaries don't seem to choose to waste their users' time (clicks) showing any of such phrases as "Your Majesty", "His Majesty", "Her Majesty", "Their Majesty", "Our Majesty", "My Majesty" and some attestable plurals and capitalisations thereof, instead drawing the user to "majesty". The analog seems possible here as well. DCDuring TALK 15:34, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

[edit] treknobabble

This seems to fall foul of the Fictional universes exclusion to me, as does treknology below. Delete and maybe add to a new Appendix:Star Trek. — Carolina wren discussió 18:03, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

No, it doesn't. The word is never used in that fictional universe. Think of it this way: the character Mr. Spock would never use the word "treknobabble". --EncycloPetey 19:32, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Careful. That's not true. The citations must be (I quote) "independent of reference to that universe" — not merely spoken by non-characters of the universe. Equinox ◑ 22:06, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

I think that EncycloPetey is right, and that you're misunderstanding his argument. The relevant sentence is this one:

Terms ^A→originating in fictional universes^←A which have three citations in separate works, but ^B→which do not have three citations which are independent of reference to that universe^←B may be included only in appendices of words from that universe, and not in the main dictionary space. [emphasis removed]

EP is saying that (non-finite) clause A doesn't describe treknobabble (since it doesn't originate in the Star Trek universe, but rather is an external reference to Star Trek itself), such that that entire section of the CFI doesn't apply. You are saying that clause B does, or may, describe treknobabble. But since clause A doesn't, clause B is irrelevant. Do you see what I mean?

—Ruakh_TALK 14:59, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes, that explains my argument in a more detailed way. We had a similar discussion over X-Phile, which is another term pertaining to a particular TV program, but not originating within that fictional universe. You can see Robert's opinion in the matter at Talk:X-Phile. --EncycloPetey 17:51, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

• Keep per EncycloPetey. Exactly correct analysis. We're not talking about a tricorder or a lightsaber here. bd2412 T 17:30, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
• Move to RFV and keep if cited as normal. Ƿidsiþ 18:02, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
  • For the record, it's now cited (so far as the usual CFI requires). bd2412 T 19:58, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

[edit] treknology

This seems to fall foul of the Fictional universes exclusion to me, as does treknobabble above. Delete and maybe add to a new Appendix:Star Trek. — Carolina wren discussió 18:03, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

No, it doesn't. The word is never used in that fictional universe. Think of it this way: the character Mr. Spock would never use the word "treknology". --EncycloPetey 19:32, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

I don't think that's the rule. See my comment at treknobabble above. Equinox ◑ 22:07, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

I've done a fairly deep search, and I doubt this would muster enough cites to pass the CFI anyway. bd2412 T 19:59, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

[edit] English-language

English + language in hyphenated adjective form DAVilla 05:17, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

In case it matters, the current definition is inadequate. There are distinct senses:

1. Written or spoken in English. (E.g., English-language literature, English-language websites)
2. Communicating in English (speaking, reading, writing, conversing, etc). (English-language speakers, English-language readers, English-language writers, English-language publishing houses of Germany which conduct business in German and write about architecture)
3. Of or relating to the English language. (English-language study, English-language policy in France, Diccionario de Ingles, English-language skills)

There may be more. I'm not sure if the last one actually defines the sense in English-language learners. —Michael Z. 2009-04-13 22:13 z

Delete SoP.—msh210℠ 23:10, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

[edit] English-speaking

English + speaking in hyphenated adjective form DAVilla 05:17, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Hm. Means “able to speak English well”, which might account for the English-speaking world, but does not mean “speaking English (at this moment).” The entry speaking doesn't help, but a reader might guess that speak (5) applies. Me, I'd certainly define it in a dictionary for ESL learners. —Michael Z. 2009-04-13 23:56 z

I don't know if that argument holds water. If I say I'm a writer, that doesn't mean I'm necessarily writing at this moment. In most contexts it probably means that I write for a living, but in general it means that I sometimes write, and that somehow that writing is important to who I am. Similarly, just because English-speaking doesn't mean speaking English at this second, I fail to see how that makes idiomatic. I think that English-speaking could use any of the five senses at speak. Additionally, I find it kind of funny that we have a picture of the creepiest guy to ever exist at that entry. Delete -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 00:29, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

I see a qualitative difference. Writer and speaker are people with particular vocations, or in particular roles (say, writer of a movie, or speaker at a conference). English-speaker is a person with an ability. Writing and speaking are present participles, used to point to someone who is writing or speaking at the moment. English-speaking is an adjective, used to attribute the facility of speaking English to someone.

(Besides that, its meaning is not defined by any sense found at speaking, so “English + speaking” doesn't define it for a reader using our dictionary. I don't think we should delete something as sum-of-parts, until our dictionary supports that assertion in the most practical sense.) —Michael Z. 2009-04-14 04:40 z

Delete as SOP. I'm not sure if the parts are "English" and "speaking" or "English" and "-speaking", or what, but it's obviously SOP, since "<language>-speaking" works equally well, and has the same meaning, for any spoken language (and even "ASL-speaking" gets some b.g.c. hits). —Ruakh_TALK 02:52, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Keep An interesting one. While it appears to be SoP, Michael makes an undeniable point. Until there is an adequate definition at speaking, SoP cannot be called. And I think it would be almost impossible to make a case for the definition required without calling for the structure "<language>-speaking" to support it. I see this entry in other dictionaries, so why not here too? After all, an English-speaking Frenchman does not mean that he is spouting forth in English at all times, nor at this very moment. Whereas an accordion-playing Frenchman would actually mean that he is playing at all times, or at this very moment. -- ALGRIF talk 14:24, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

I looked at w:Participle#Participles_in_Modern_English for guidance, but that article doesn't list all of the functions of the present participle, apart from “modifying a noun, with active sense: Let sleeping dogs lie.”. But I guess attributing an ability is one of them, as in dancing bear, flying monkey, etc.

If the correct sense were added to speaking or -speaking, then this entry wouldn't be SoP, but I still wouldn't feel compelled to delete it. By the way, should these be participles or adjectives? —Michael Z. 2009-04-15 14:48 z

For English entries, we don't use the POS header "Participle". We use "Adjective" for participles that function like adjectives, and we use "Verb" for the verb form definition. English partiicples do not inflect, have no number or person, and (as can be seen above) the present participle doesn't even imply current action. In short, English participles don't have the features that make participles interesting in other languages, so there is no reason to label them as a separate part of speech. For other languages, practice varies. --EncycloPetey 19:29, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

No, accordion-playing Frenchman can mean either a Frenchman playing an accordion at the moment, or a Frenchman who knows how to play an accordion. DAVilla 08:42, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Delete SoP.—msh210℠ 23:12, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Keep. References an ability, not a characteristic. bd2412 T 20:03, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

I added a sense and subsense to speaking. —Michael Z. 2009-04-21 20:55 z

I agree with your entry, and I have even blue-linked -speaking. But I still think that English-speaking should be kept. Translations at -speaking are difficult. In Spanish, for instance, I can't put anglófono nor anglohablante although I wonder if -hablante would be allowable. I'm sure there are similar problems in most other languages also. -- ALGRIF talk 13:14, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

[edit] business English

business + English DAVilla 05:25, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

The term business is finely broken down into 16 senses, and I bet some but not others are used in this compound.

Is business English the subset of English that is used in business, a specialized business jargon or dialect, the register of English speech and writing appropriate for business, or a field in foreign-language education (the latter is implied in w:Business English)? Is use of the term restricted to the field of language education? —Michael Z. 2009-04-13 22:32 z

Delete on the grounds you have have Business German, Japanese, Chinese whatever. Is someone suggested that we get a bot to create one of these for each language? Mglovesfun 16:39, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

[edit] en space

The entry title is the thing “ ”, not the term en space denoting it. Recently discussed at WT:RFV# , and currently redirected to en space.

en space is a term denoting a thing, while an en space (“ ”) is an instance of the thing, and not a term or even a symbol representing the thing. It is a tool of the typographer, and not something that appears in print, so it is not attestable per WT:CFI (i.e., the blank created by an en space is not distinguishable from a regular double space in print, whether it was set in letterpress, phototypeset, or set digitally). While keeping it as a redirect isn't a major problem or anything, it ignores the distinction of what belongs in a dictionary and what doesn't. —Michael Z. 2009-04-14 18:14 z

This width of space frequently occurs after cola and semi-cola in archaic texts, so in that sense we can show its being used. What’s the problem? † ﴾^(u):Raifʻhār ^(t):Doremítzwr﴿ 18:28, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

This is exactly why we shouldn't try to add non-words to the dictionary. You can't attest the word en space in a 1,500-year-old manuscript any more than you can attest the word dinosaur to 230 million BC. An en space is a metal object used by a letterpress compositor, or its digital analogue; it is not a gap between words on a page. We must keep a firm grip on what is a thing and what is its name, or the dictionary will plotz. Delete! —Michael Z. 2009-04-14 20:06 z

The problem is in including both things and their names in something devoted to names. It's seems just an empty mind-game of little or no utility. DCDuring TALK 18:37, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Are you trying to maintain the principle (with which I think I agree) or do you really want to delete it? I haven't entirely gotten my head around including both the various non-letter symbols we include and their names. After all we don't include pictures of bricks, bricks themselves, or "bricks"; we just include [[bricks]]. DCDuring TALK 18:37, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

My take is that our entries describe lexical units. Most of those lexical units are words like "bricks", but some are typographical elements, like the letter B whose entry is [[B]] and the en space, whose entry should be [[ ]]. Our entry [[en space]], on the other hand, is for a word commonly used to refer to that typographical element. —Rod (A. Smith) 19:44, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

At the end of the day, [[[[ ]]]] is not used to signify any thing, unlike most of the other typographic elements. Any standard road sign would have more basis for inclusion as a signifier. Typographic elements, like wikijargon, are a kind of inside baseball that has no value to our user base, the supposed beneifciaries of our efforts, but seems of importance to us. DCDuring TALK 19:59, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

The en space is used to indicate something. Each instance of it indicates that the preceding word has ended, that the subsequent letters start a new word, and that the visual space between those words should be a specific width. Typographical units are valid dictionary entries, distinct from the words that refer to them. B (“‘the letter bee’”) is distinct from the word “bee”. 1 (“‘one’”) is distinct from the word “one”. The Korean letter ㄱ (“‘giyeok’”) is distinct from the word 기역 (giyeok). We document lexical units, including words bee, one, 기역 (giyeok), and en space and the typographical units they name, with entries at [[B]], [[1]], [[ㄱ]], and [[ ]]. —Rod (A. Smith) 20:46, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Lots of things indicate something. The radiation symbol, the sign of the cross, the phrase “let's try to get to the beach before Marty,” a strip of yellow police tape, an Apple logo, a woodsman's blaze hacked into a tree, a frown, a turnstile, a cupholder. None of these belongs in a dictionary.

But an en space isn't even a symbol. An en space is a metal object which is strapped into a letterpress, or an analogous 8-bit character in a text bytestream. The gap between words is just a gap between words, and a reader without a pair of calipers doesn't distinguish the gap left by three thin spaces, an en space, a quad, a tab character, two mid spaces, or the right-alignment of a very long line.

The encyclopedia explains the function of “typographical units.” The dictionary defines words (or “lexical units”, if you like). —Michael Z. 2009-04-14 21:03 z

Yes, but how many of those things are Unicode codepoints? –I’d be fine with entries for ☢ and ✝… † ﴾^(u):Raifʻhār ^(t):Doremítzwr﴿ 22:13, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

The Unicode consortium is maintaining a spec describing their encoding scheme. All words in all languages is a very different thing. —Michael Z. 2009-04-14 23:33 z

Dictionaries document lexical units, of which words are only one class (the largest class, sure, but just one class). Every decent English dictionary contains an entry for the letter B. Typographical characters are a type of lexical unit whose documentation belongs in a dictionary. —Rod (A. Smith) 21:15, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I notice that our entry for lexical item and Wikipedia's entry w:Lexical item disagree with my use of that phrase. I meant something like, "units of language", but now I'm hard-pressed to find a phrase that means just that. Rephrasing my point above, I believe dictionaries document units of language, of which words are only one class. A decent English dictionary contains an entry for the letter B, with facts like the origin of the letter, its position in the alphabet, its pronunciation, etc. Similarly, a dictionary seems like a great home for documentation of typographical units, like [[1]], [[ㄱ]], and [[ ]]. —Rod (A. Smith) 21:51, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Which dictionary, decent or otherwise, has an entry for an actual en space, and not just its name, en space? Does it have two entries for italic B and roman B? Headwords or subsenses for serif and sans-serif B's, blackletter B's, and B's set in a Swiss humanist face? I think your dictionary probably just has entries for B, and b. Periods, commas, semicolons, dashes, etc belong to orthography, not lexicography. These are all part of writing, but they are not “lexical units.” A space is not a word, it is the empty spot between written words.

But be that as it may, you are still confounding text with the technical means used to represent it. An en space is not a “typographical character”, and it is not a gap between written characters. An en space is a concrete object, a kind of metal slug, which can make a bigger gap between other types by being bent or padded with a bit of chewed paper.[15] An en space is also a Unicode character with the value U+2002, which can produce an en-width gap in displayed or printed text, but, for example, can also make a bigger gap if the text is set justified left and right. —Michael Z. 2009-04-14 22:25 z

So an en space is not a “typographical character”, but it is also a Unicode character with the value U+2002? Now I'm even more confounded. —Rod (A. Smith) 22:52, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

That's right. It's a digital character, a byte, a code point – it's not a typographical character, letter, or symbol, or a glyph at all. It's a typographer's tool, not a part of the lexis. It defines a range of behaviours for the adjacent characters, which behaviours may be modified by software which lays out or displays text on a screen or printer, but doesn't display anything or have inherent meaning. It's a block in the press or a piece of data in the computer file, but it only leaves a blank on the screen or on paper. —Michael Z. 2009-04-14 23:03 z

A dictionary defines words. No matter how loosely you want to define what constitutes words, spaces will continue to be the empty bits between them. —Michael Z. 2009-04-14 23:08 z

Forgive my obtuseness, but I don’t see the difference between   and ¦, ۝, and ○, apart from the fact that the former lacks black bits; what’s the significant difference in lexicographical terms? † ﴾^(u):Raifʻhār ^(t):Doremítzwr﴿ 22:03, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Unlike bricks or dinosaurs, we are dealing here with something which can be sought for via our search box as a single Unicode graphic character. I don't see it as being outside the remit of an electronically-based dictionary to deal with such things, even if a paper-based dictionary would be unlikely to do so. The question therefore is whether Unicode graphic characters meet the standard of “Terms” to be broadly interpreted. A loose interpretation of the sixth bullet point: "Characters used in ideographic or phonetic writing such as 字 or ʃ." would favor allowing an entry for every Unicode graphic character.

DC is arguing in favor of a strict standard under which characters that exist solely as typographic tools would not meet CFI's standard of a “term”. If “ ” and “ ” were deleted, logical consistency would seem to call for also deleting “²” and “³” since those too are simply tools of the typographer to produce superscript 2 and superscript 3 respectively, and likely quite a few other existing entries would need to be deleted under that strict standard.

I see no reason to discriminate against non-printing graphic characters, and no reason to not have suitable entries for each and every one of them. Getting those suitable entries is likely to be the problem, though for some them, such as “⑲”, a redirect should suffice. — Carolina wren discussió 22:20, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

You're using a pretty loose interpretation of loose interpretation. If it meant any Unicode character, it would say any Unicode character, and then we would have to change it so that this remained a dictionary. Fortunately, none of these things is true. —Michael Z. 2009-04-14 22:29 z

I didn't say any Unicode character, I said any Unicode graphic character. There is a difference and I agree that combining characters such as U+0305 COMBINING OVERLINE or format characters such as U+200C ZERO WIDTH NON-JOINER don't merit entries. — Carolina wren discussió 22:46, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Let me try again, less glibly. Don't treat our representation of language as language itself. Unicode doesn't define language or lexis, it's merely an attempt to represent it. Let's delineate our dictionary's scope in terms of language, not code points. —Michael Z. 2009-04-14 22:51 z

And yet those code points are how the Wiktionary is accessed, not simply letters as is the case for paper dictionaries. To a certain extent, function must follow form.

Let me make certain that I understand you and the full scope of your point of view on what should be included and excluded as a “term”. In addition to “ ”, you would favor eliminating everything that does not fit a highly restrictive definition of lexical, such as, but not limited to -, ², ·, ‽, ⇐, ♪, and most of Appendix:Unsupported titles (including of course the entry on “ ”). If not, please explain why you feel any of those merit being included as terms while “ ” does not, for what you have propounded so far does not support making such a distinction. (In my opinion, that spaces don't have black bits does not of itself constitute a reason to exclude them.) — Carolina wren discussió 00:55, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

The design adage is actually “form follows function” rather than the reverse. The function of this dictionary is to define terms, not to duplicate the Unicode Consortium's specification.

But this is off topic. If you have a specific proposal to change CFI, then write it up at the Beer Parlour and maybe you can learn more about my full scope. For now I'll just say that “characters used in ideographic or phonetic writing such as 字 or ʃ” certainly does not declare or imply that “ ” is a term in any language. —Michael Z. 2009-04-15 19:03 z

I'm aware of the way the adage is usually structured, but the converse was appropriate to my point. I don't see the need to rewrite CFI to include “ ” within the scope of what we cover except possibly for added clarity. The list given of what constitutes a term in not written in manner that indicates exclusivity. To quote the relevant section: “A term need not be limited to a single word in the usual sense. Any of these are also acceptable:”. If that list were prescriptive instead of illustrative, the language should instead be something like: “A term is not limited to a single word in the usual sense. The following and only the following are also acceptable:”

Now let me repeat my question, MZ, and this time I'd appreciate an actual answer instead of blithely declaring it off topic. You are arguing that “ ” should be deleted because it does not meet what you consider to be the scope of “term”. I do not agree that it does not meet the scope of “term”, and have explained why I feel is does. If “ ” (and “ ”) are deleted, your interpretation of what is a “term” is likely to govern future discussions and therefore knowing clearly what that interpretation is on topic. Therefore let me repeat for hopefully the last time: Do you favor eliminating everything that does not fit a highly restrictive definition of lexical, such as, but not limited to -, ², ·, ‽, ⇐, ♪, and most of Appendix:Unsupported titles (including of course the entry on “ ”)? If not, please explain why you feel any of those merit being included as terms while “ ” does not. — Carolina wren discussió 19:06, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but each case has its own merits, or hasn't. I won't satisfy your demand for me to write an essay to “govern future discussions.”

This is not a term in any sense, not even a written character, except purely in the jargon of digital representation. Spaces are the bits between terms and their components. It's also not attestable. The half-em gap left between terms by this code point could have been created by a half-dozen other means. This doesn't meet our CFI. —Michael Z. 2009-04-17 22:32 z

Not much sense in hashing this further, since it is clear we disagree on the termitude of “ ” and that we won't resolve our difference of opinion here. White space can be shown to affect meaning as doggone and dog gone aren't even remotely related in meaning. (Indeed, a dog gone would elicit a Yippie! from me.) Given a refusal to discuss the broader issue, I will have to take the position that this deletion, if it goes through, sets no precedent except for other white space characters. — Carolina wren discussió 01:20, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Delete; not verifiable. We don't index orthogrpahic variants where the spelling does not change. This is akin to discussing cat versus cɑt. --EncycloPetey 19:26, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

While the example is problematic, since cɑt could be a distinct word from cat in Fe'fe' or some other African language that uses Latin alpha (Ɑ ɑ) as a letter, it certainly is a more cogent argument than the one given by MZ. While I still think that we ought to have entries or redirects (to either another entry or an Appendix) for each Unicode graphic character, if only to avoid the inevitable attempts at (re)creation by anons, until such time as a systematic effort to make such entries is undertaken, I won't be insistent on keeping this, tho I still don't support deletion. — Carolina wren discussió 22:14, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

It's a good example, even if italics are used in Fe'fe' leetspeak. Many fonts have a unicameral italic small a, that does not make it a small Latin alpha, any more than a zero is a capital o, or a capital el a small i.

Perhaps redirects to an appendix would serve to prevent recreating such entries. Or a redirect with explanation, as at Wiktionarian. —Michael Z. 2009-04-18 14:28 z

What italics? There is some use of Latin alpha outside of IPA as a distinct letter from Latin a, which is why Latin Capital Letter Alpha (U+2C6D) was added in Unicode 5.1. One can argue the wisdom of making that distinction, but it isn't dissimilar in nature to separating u and v or i and j. — Carolina wren discussió 02:09, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Based on EP's point ("We don't index orthogrpahic variants where the spelling does not change."), I'd be satisfied with a simple Mediawiki redirect to whatever entry we have for whitespace. —Rod (A. Smith) 22:40, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Strong keep for both this and em space. We have entries for Translingual graphical symbols (e.g. "," and "-") and entries for their names in (hopefully) all languages (en:comma & hyphen, es:coma & guión, etc.). “ ” should be treated no differently. We should not have a Translingual symbol be a redirect to an English term. And the entry should have its Unicode codepoint. In the context of symbols, this information is not encyclopedic. It is necessary information that clarifies easily confused and hard to decipher symbols. Perhaps if we could separate names for things (that should go in dictionaries) from the actual text we use, then we wouldn't need to have this entry. But we can't, so we should.

EP, perhaps a better example of your point would have been bedroom & BEDROOM. But while true for whole words, we make obvious exceptions for single character entries (e.g. G & g and Γ, γ). --Bequw → ¢ • τ 09:14, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Those aren't exceptions. The letters G and g serve different lexical functions and have separate etymologies. The capital and lower case were developed at different times and in different cultures. --EncycloPetey 17:47, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps a good position is that we ought to have an entry for « », but not for something like en space (written with the en space, resulting perhaps from paragraph justification) as an alternative for en space (written with an ASCII space); just a thought… † ﴾^(u):Raifʻhār ^(t):Doremítzwr﴿ 18:25, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Keep per Bequw. EncycloPetey's analogy is apt, and we shouldn't have entries for things like cɑt and hot dog; but we should have entries for things like ɑ and the en space. (And in fact, we already do have an entry for ɑ.) —Ruakh_TALK 15:08, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes, we have an entry for ɑ as an IPA character, but that is irrelevant. We do not have entries for cɑt or ɑpple, or other English words using that character in the spelling, despite the fact that some publishers use that typography. Likewise, we dont have separate entries for the two forms of lowercase g that can appear in different font sets. --EncycloPetey 17:47, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

But we should have entries for the two forms of the lower-case g, in my opinion. † ﴾^(u):Raifʻhār ^(t):Doremítzwr﴿ 18:25, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

This is a purely stylistic difference, and carries no lexicographical meaning. The (near-)exception is in IPA, which prefers an “open-tailed g”, presumably for consistency, but allows a bicameral g – Unicode provides a code point for this, U+0261 (ɡ). In my opinion, this is a preferred style, like asking for a sans-serif font, and the letter remains a g. —Michael Z. 2009-04-19 01:08 z

Whatever difference or lack thereof there is between ‘g’ and ‘ɡ’, we’d still have separate entries for both, wouldn’t we? The difference is that we would not have separate entries for, say, gold and ɡold (though the latter might be kept as a hard redirect to the former). † ﴾^(u):Raifʻhār ^(t):Doremítzwr﴿ 17:29, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

I would say keep only if we are to distinguish glyphs like italic and serif variants. In fact, I would very much like to see this. A vertical line is a single glyph but can mean lowercase L or uppercase I, except that in writing an word-initial I usually has the bars on top and bottom. The line can also mean the number 1 in the US but the British write that differently. The Arabic numeral 5 when written by the Chinese always has the left stem extending noticeably above the horizontal bar. This is true despite looking the same in type as we would see it, just as in the U.S. the dollar sign is written with two vertical strokes although the typed symbol commonly has only one, sometimes going through and sometimes not. It is proper for dictionaries to document this kind of information. However, seeing as we do not yet, delete. DAVilla 08:34, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

And in countries which use the Cyrillic alphabet, a figure 4 is always closed, so it doesn't look like a letter Ч (che). Where a figure 1 starts with a prominent upstroke, the figure 7 is distinguished by a crossed stem.

But these typographic or calligraphic variations of letterform don't belong in a dictionary, nor do Roman or Cyrillic type styles like serif, italic, or boldfaced. They don't represent differences in spelling or even orthography, nor in pronunciation, nor any other lexicographical feature. They might be summarized in an encyclopedic appendix, but we have the biggest appendix in the world, the English-language Wikipedia. —Michael Z. 2009-05-18 16:39 z

Sure they belong here. It is for precisely these reasons of division in linguistic evolution that we don't have just one Roman alphabet or one Cyrillic alphabet, these inventions often reflecting phonetic deviation, and why words borrowed from similar languages take on very different pronunciations (or similar pronunciations and different spellings), and why letters have come to represent multiple phonetics over time. It may feel like documenting this is a static snapshot, but it is an entirely linguistic topic and subject to change as with any other, just over a larger span of time. DAVilla 04:08, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Huh? So there should be separate entries for the different “terms” italic, italic, and italic (and italic?). Separate entries for style, style, and style? One for closed figure 4 and another for open-topped 4? Not only is this impossible to do in Wikimedia, but there is no dictionary precedent for any such thing. This is not lexicography. —Michael Z. 2009-05-26 04:28 z

No, only for glyphs, some day in a separate namespace possibly but starting in the appendix, just as usage notes for the different alphabets and such. Once you know that a glyph stands for a 1 or an I or an l, then it can take on the lexical meaning, and the different "terms" you name above would all be under the same title, italic or style, and not also in small caps or with an initial capital as at the beginning of a sentence or other obvious variants.

And am I mistaken? I thought the unabridged dictionaries did catalog the evolution of letterforms. I've seen a few places where we do already. DAVilla 05:10, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

I see, but this is part of the encyclopedic supplement, I think. We can already link to this kind of info at w:A, w:Latin alphabet, w:1 (number), w:Hindu-Arabic numeral system, w:Italic type, etc. —Michael Z. 2009-05-26 12:34 z

Oh, and a redirect makes no more sense than redirecting “0” to “zero” or listing “exclamation mark” in see alsos at the top of “!”. A “ ” is not just English! DAVilla 12:07, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

[edit] advance fee scam

SOP? —Ruakh_TALK 01:54, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Keep, wide-spread long-term use as a set phrase. I think it is the standard term used by legislators in the USA, and perhaps elsewhere.--Dmol 07:58, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

The more standard term seems to be "advance fee fraud". —Ruakh_TALK 15:35, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

advance fee fraud is under "See Also" and it's a red-link for now. --129.130.102.80 17:29, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

[edit] em space

Similar to the #en space above, there's a redirect from the whitespace character “ ” to the entry em space. Per CFI, this is not a term. —Michael Z. 2009-04-15 19:07 z

As I noted above, the list of what is a term given in CFI is written in an illustrative fashion, not a prescriptive one.— Carolina wren discussió 19:18, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

As I noted, none of these examples illustrates anything like the gap created by U+2003 EM SPACE. Its lexicographical vacancy is identical to that of the gap left by U+2001, or a pair of U+2002's or U+2005's in a row, or a metal quad in the letterpress, or a tap of the space bar in a mechanical typewriter. It is not a term, it makes the voids between them. —Michael Z. 2009-04-17 22:41 z

[edit] space

If we're going to discuss deleting “ ” and “ ”, then we should also discuss the entry for “ ” in Appendix:Unsupported titles. Nothing that would apply to the first two entries does not also apply to that entry. Personally I feel all three should be kept for the reasons I have given at #en space above. — Carolina wren discussió 19:18, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Although we have had the entries in Appendix:Unsupported titles, and linked from Template:punctuation, these don't meet our own CFI. They're not terms, abbreviations, acronyms, or initialisms, etc. We end up with “definitions” which are actually usage, descriptions, or just names: “An ASCII symbol which covers the functions of...,” “a glottal stop”, and “The right parenthesis symbol.”

Maybe they're better off collected in a single, well constructed appendix. A table or list may be more effective than the current long page of redundant “Translingual” headings pretending to be dictionary definitions. —Michael Z. 2009-04-18 15:04 z

Hm, just thinking aloud — well, on screen — about the appendix idea. You think it should list all characters that don't otherwise have entries... which should probably be all Unicode characters (since why do we need to define even A#Translingual?)... and it should define them as "symbol representing a glottal stop" or "the right parenthesis symbol" or the like. So basically we should have a copy of the Unicode table, but augmented by etymology (how did the parenthesis get its form, and when?), related terms ([ is related to (), and the like. Is that what you had in mind?—msh210℠ 15:52, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

No, the Unicode consortium already documents each version of their standard. I wish people would stop implying that Unicode had some authority or precedence over language. But we can supplement the dictionary with some encyclopedic lists of symbols, the kind of stuff you used to find in tables at the back of a large print dictionary.

I would start with some basic categories of symbols which don't meet CFI: punctuation, math and numerals, proofing marks, etc, and create an appendix for each. In a table or list, each symbol should probably have its most important English name or names. Since the names will link to dictionary entries, it may not be necessary to list any additional names, or descriptions, or translations. I see these as minimal lists of links, visual indexes for symbols the reader may recognize but might not be able to name. I would also link to a related Wikipedia topic at the bottom of the page, but not for each symbol; the focus should remain as an index to dictionary entries, which may link on to Wikipedia and elsewhere. —Michael Z. 2009-04-21 19:14 z

[edit] marsupial

Adjective: of, or pertaining to a marsupial. Isn't this just a regular attributive adjective? We don't accept these, right (although there are some translations thereunder which could be worth a keep) --Jackofclubs 13:45, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

It has a limited amount of use as a true adjective. Consider the following cases, respectively, of gradable, comparative, and predicate use:

2002, Fiction Fix: First Injection, page 58:

• But there's this pouch just below my belly button, very marsupial, where the kangaroo lives.

1952, The Motor‎, page 520:

• It seemed to me, meandering around Earls Court, that motors should be more marsupial.

1892, The American naturalist‎, page 125:

• Showing that this animal is marsupial, consists of the following characters.

DCDuring TALK 16:18, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

• Great. Maybe there should be a(nother) definition as having a pouch or similar. --Jackofclubs 06:18, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

  Would that be the attributive use of the noun sense, as in marsupial mouse? Beats me whether we are supposed to include that as an adjective sense. —Michael Z. 2009-04-23 14:49 z

• The reason I troubled to find and provide the particular citations above is that predicate, graded, and comparative use are three markers of true adjectivity. (BTW, I am not sure that the usage in the "more" quote is comparative, though certainly graded.) DCDuring TALK 16:08, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

  Good info. This kind of thing should be recommended in WT:ELE, or in subguidelines for particular POS headings. —Michael Z. 2009-04-23 16:53 z

RFD passed, since everyone seems to accept DCDuring's cites as demonstrating adjectivality. :-)   —Ruakh_TALK 01:36, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

[edit] silly

Someone hid the adverb sense with a comment that it made no sense. I've heard the phrase "bored silly" before, and it is easily cited, and there silly seems to be an adverb. Does this warrant an entry, or move to bored silly? --Jackofclubs 06:16, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

It's not an adverb. It's the same sort of construction as "painted red". Equinox ◑ 14:27, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

[edit] floor tile

Basically any tile that goes on a floor. Is there any other reasonable way to interpret this or any reason to have it in the dictionary? Equinox ◑ 14:23, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Whatever the outcome, roof tile should be IMO treated the same.--Duncan 14:40, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

OED's definition of roof-tile (quotes include roof tile) implies that it used to mean ridge-tile, but has come to mean roofing tile, so it doesn't seem to be SoP historically. —Michael Z. 2009-04-25 16:46 z

Delete per precedent but I wouldn't mind keeping this e.g. as a phrasebook entry. It's what the thing is called, more specifically than tile. DAVilla 04:56, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Isn't "roof tile" a simple case of an Egyptian pyramid? Doesn't it meet the in-between test? ("*floor clay tile", vs "clay floor tile")

Doesn't it fit into a simple conventional naming system (floor, wall, roof)?

The closed spelling "floortile" would be attestable, even though the open spelling floor tile is much more common. IOW, there is doubt about the orthography.

These latter two are some of the weaker Pawley criteria for idiomaticity. If there is enough evidence of idiomaticity from the weaker criteria, should we include?

For multi-word terms, have we done a review of the cases where our rules as we can apply them exclude something but a number of us are not sure that they should be deleted? Of is our basic pattern to keep by vote even if there is no good rationale under the rules? Despite dressing up our decisions with rationales, are we voting based on our sense of what should be included. If we are, shouldn't we broaden the electorate by encouraging a large population of voters to just vote on term inclusion? DCDuring TALK 12:25, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

The latter scenario sounds like ignoring our own rules even more. I don't see any guidelines which let us throw the guidelines in the bin whenever a bunch of us feel like it.

Who is Pawley? —Michael Z. 2009-06-18 12:51 z

The question in my mind is whether we are actually voting with our intuitions but convincing ourselves that we are systematically applying explicit criteria. It is the difficulty folks have in "correctly" applying what pass for criteria that makes me suspicious. OTOH, there are few human decision processes that could not be so described. Most such systems have a rich mythology which cloaks them in protective garb against fundamental challenge, which is probably as it should and must be.

See w:Andrew Pawley and User:DCDuring/Pawley. I don't know the source of the list. Perhaps DAVilla knows. DCDuring TALK 15:21, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

[edit] computer mouse

Non-idiomatic SoP, like computer keyboard or computer speakers. Equinox ◑ 00:58, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

I dunno. There is a MUCH more significant difference between the senses that an unqualified mouse can have vs. a computer mouse than between a computer keyboard and a keyboard. To wit, a computer mouse is certainly not a type of mouse, whereas computer keyboards and speakers are types of keyboards and speakers. There is also an interesting question as to whether mouse (computer sense) should be defined simply as "a computer mouse" (as we might do with page -> webpage), but we'd need to dig into old informatics document to determine which term might have come first (though "computer mouse" would certainly be a curious type of retronym). Circeus 05:33, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Computer mouse is only used when the context doesn't make the sense clear, just like computer keyboard.

OED's quotations:

1. 1965: “a device called the ‘mouse’”
2. 1967: “a device called the ‘mouse’”
3. 1977: “a pointing device called a mouse”
4. 1982: “a hand-held device known as a mouse.”
5. 1997: “people inside clicking on mouses”

OED also includes nine compounds with mouse, each with quotations, but the phrase computer mouse only appears once, in the definition of mousemat. —Michael Z. 2009-05-04 23:36 z

It looks like this should be deleted although there's a lingering question. Isn't this how one would be less ambiguous in naming the item? How do we denote on mouse that "computer mouse" is a synonym? DAVilla 08:11, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Like this, perhaps? --Duncan 09:40, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Revise. I think any term for which we can say, "this is what the thing is commonly called" and unambiguously so, should be kept (edit: weakly, minimally) as a phrasebook entry at the very least. DAVilla 12:50, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Is there any evidence that computer mouse is used with significant frequency? We don't add bold-italic notes screaming “computer port” to the entry port, computer keyboard to keyboard, or computer console to console. —Michael Z. 2009-05-27 01:52 z

It shows up 74 times in COCA. MIT's Technology Review had it in 2007, referring to Ideo having designed the "first mass-market computer mouse". It might seem funny to refer to designing the "first mass-market mouse", especially in an article that mentions cloning and genetic engineering as well as computer animation. (See other mass-market mouse.) DCDuring TALK 02:20, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Google Books: 956 for computer mouse, 688 for computer port, 1,424 for computer keyboard, 964 for computer console. --Duncan 09:21, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Well, computer keyboard is certainly not unreasonable, but I could only consider such a collocation for as a phrasebook entry. Idiomaticity is a highly refined and stable rule and one that I should be more reluctant to bend. DAVilla 08:24, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Also, compare the hits of "mouse click" to "computer mouse click" (or mouse pointer, mouse pad, etc.). Can't really do it with COCA because computer mouse is too rare. I think the combinations “computer x” are not idiomatic at all, only used when the context requires disambiguation. —Michael Z. 2009-05-27 12:24 z

[edit] Locational Based Marginal Pricing

Seems like [[location]]-[[based]] [[marginal]] [[pricing]] or [[w:LMP]] et al. DCDuring TALK 00:52, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Keep as a set phrase in a specific industry. Its meaning is impossible to establish from sum of parts. Evidence of worldwide usage on web and in books. However, not sure it needs to be caps, as some of them are lower case, also hyphenated between locational and based.--Dmol 03:34, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

It is only capitalized in second-rate glossaries. It should not have any capitals. I have no idea what it means, based on the individual words, so keep. —Stephen 05:00, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Is there any objective evidence behind either of these assertions or is this just a Vote? DCDuring TALK 09:50, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Where in the title do you say any mention of electricity? Move to lowercase. DAVilla 12:47, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

A quick Google Books search shows locational marginal pricing (LMP) as the most common term (248 results), with a few instances each of location marginal pricing (9), location-based marginal pricing (7), and the practically illiterate locational based marginal pricing (4). Per Wikipedia, it is also called nodal pricing (903). —Michael Z. 2009-04-30 01:50 z

One could take any four-word compound (especially an ill-formed one like this) out of a native context in which it is used (and understood in general without definition), and define its use as limited to the context. Moreover one could add senses as it gains traction in other contexts. Interdisciplinary terms would be perfect for this. Variant forms will be abundant. Wiktionary 10 Million! Let a thousand jargons bloom! time-of-day pricing, congestion-based pricing, peak-load pricing, demand-charge pricing, real-time congestion pricing. I might want more than 10,000 words on my watchlist. DCDuring TALK 16:53, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

[edit] zoom past

sum of parts? --Jackofclubs 15:52, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

I think so, but see the ongoing discussion at WT:TR#zoom. My "technical" defence of zoom in has weakened since I imagined a camera zooming past something in the scene. Equinox ◑ 16:00, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

[edit] wrapt

sense: single-mindedly. Should just be a misspelling of rapt. DCDuring TALK 01:00, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

If it's a reasonably common eggcorn it should be listed as a common misspelling. Circeus 05:36, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

[edit] plastic scouser

It speaks or itself. DCDuring TALK 09:17, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Cited, but I think it should not be capitalised — at the very least plastic shouldn't. Equinox ◑ 10:07, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Moved. DCDuring TALK 11:48, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Attestation isn't the primary issue. "Plastic" is used to mean "ersatz", "second-rate", "wannabe" all the time. This seems just another instance of the miracle of logocombination. DCDuring TALK 11:46, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Does plastic mean this of people as well? DAVilla 12:43, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

It certainly has had the meaning. That meaning was part of the resonance for the career advice given to Dustin Hoffman's character in w:The Graduate. I note that our definition doesn't have that sense. DCDuring TALK 15:06, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

This] work discusses the meanings I have in mind. DCDuring TALK 15:12, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

I had wondered whether the sense was dated. It doesn't seem to be. The application to people may have been somewhat out of fashion. I have in-line cites at plastic which should mostly be moved to citations:plastic when the discussion is done. DCDuring TALK 16:24, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Okay, delete. DAVilla 11:27, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

[edit] May 2009

[edit] tuse

I'm just wondering what the source for this is? I've never heard of it, nor as any dictionary I can lay my hands on. Interesting for something to be proscribed and virtually inexistant at the same time. Having said that, I should try a few Google searches before I make any more comments. Mglovesfun 23:04, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

Actually strong delete now, google.fr returns 66 hits for "tu tuses" all of which seem to be misspellings of tu t'uses. "Que tu tuses" (as in Spanish, most subjunctives follow que) gets erm, zero hits. Mglovesfun 23:11, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

My French isn't very good, but if this is "first and third-person present subjunctive", why would it take tu (second person)? I found for instance on the Web (referring to Hitler): "qu'il tuse des millions de gens pour en sauver des milliards", but it is a rare aberration and probably an error. Equinox ◑ 23:21, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

Not at all, it's VERY strongly marked (low slang) Quebec form where a "theoretical" (you would not normally pronounce final "e") vowel hiatus is eliminated. Here are a few examples (none of which are citeable, something that would be eminently hard to find, but still): CRISSSSS. Faut que je la TUSE! (talking about a spider), attend que je le tuse ton chien a la con (being told "my dog could have done better), (rapeller moi quil faut que je le tuse). The TLFQ Database actually manages to dig quite a few citations. Want me to collect those? Circeus 23:45, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

You're not wrong Equinox, I worded that quite badly, so here goes. On Google.fr with "include French results only" and in quotation marks:

• Que je tuse - 1
• Que tu tuses - 0
• Qu'il tuse - 2
• Qu'elle tuse - 0
• Qu'on tuse - 1
• Que nous tusions - 0
• Que vous tusiez - 0
• Qu'ils tusent - 0
• Qu'elles tusent - 0

So that's 4 Mglovesfun 23:49, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

Okay I just read that. So why can't you do that with any verb? Makes me think of the old -in' problem that any verb can have a form ending in -in'. Mglovesfun 23:53, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

It's not that you can't, it's that few very common verbs (i.e. verbs basic that a strongly proscribed process would affect them), end in -uer or -ouer. You'll find example for tuer and jouer, possibly louer (here's one), but not verbs like rouer or éberluer. It's a context thing. It's the same reason a verb like "engueuler" does not, in fact, have a subjunctive imperfect (I dare you to find literary quotes!): a wroter that uses that verbal tense is at best highly unlikely to use the word, just as someone who writes a text in which joue -> jouse is unlikely to use the verb "allouer" (they'd use "permettre"). Circeus 00:00, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Haha, I'll have a go at that. Foutre doesn't have a past historic or an imperfect subjunctive in any (paper) dictionary that I know, but you can find it a lot on the web (je foutis and je foutus). Oh by the way, this. Mglovesfun 00:09, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm quite willing to revise the entries (gotta make one for tusent, too), but I'm not going to back down from believing they warrant listing. Circeus 00:12, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Shall we wait for someone else to contribute then? Mglovesfun 21:52, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

It is definitely not valid French. Perhaps some Quebec slang, but what is the difference with bad spelling ? In the quote "rapeller moi quil faut que je le tuse", do you want to create rapeller (rappeler) too ? I think we should delete tuse and tuses. We are not a normative dictionary, but it is too rare and close to bad spelling in my opinion. Koxinga 22:35, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

As an ex-Marseillais Parisian, I'm against tuse fr(fr), jouse fr(fr) and louse fr(fr) without a relevant dialect specification. JackPotte 03:15, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

These are irrelevant to the point in that they don't affect pronunciation. As mentioned above, I can dig up several written quotes with dates ranging from at least 1930s-70s. I won't bother if the thing are gonna get deleted anyway. I wouldn't object to losing louse, though, for which I can hardly find actual quotes (although there seem to be a slangy homonymous verb borrowed from English lose in use in Europe, whice complicates things). Circeus 06:01, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Mglovesfun, and for the record: The consensus in the past was that we do have entries ending in "in'" if attested. If someone wants I can dig up the conversation (I think). Because this is off-topic in this conversation, and to make sure I see your request (I'm not always at a computer that can bring up the huge RFD page), please ask me at my talkpage rather than here if you want me to dig it up.—msh210℠ 15:56, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Added quotes for all three forms of tuer (not sure why there are much more available in the TLFQ database for the plural than the singulars), and adjusted the tags: it's much more nonstandard, even for slang, than proscribed (which maps to "disputed"). Circeus 06:37, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Kept as cited and tagged. --Jackofclubs 15:53, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

[edit] tuses

[edit] tusent

See above. Mglovesfun 23:04, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

Kept these --Jackofclubs 15:53, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

[edit] compassionate conservativisms

This is just a weird one. The plural of a misspelling, and even for the correct spelling, wouldn't that be an uncountable noun? When do people ever use conservatisms and fascisms (etc.). Mglovesfun 21:51, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

For particular flavours or instances: "War and imperialism were intrinsic in German and Italian fascisms". Not sure about this one, either, though. It's almost non-existent in the plural. Equinox ◑ 21:57, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

It's more the fact that in the singular, it's listed as a misspelling. It would be a bit like creating iritate (reasonable) but then creating the conjugation as well ; iritates, -ed, -ing. Hmm, this needs some thought. Mglovesfun 22:04, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

I see that conservativism is only glossed as an "alternate spelling", though. Equinox ◑ 22:10, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

For the moment, the " correct" spelling is listed as uncountable (I didn't write the articles) while the misspelling has a plural. I don't insist on deletion if it can be avoided, but clearly it's a problem that needs fixing in some way. Mglovesfun 22:15, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Mac OS

Seems to be sum-of-parts to me: Mac + OS. --EncycloPetey 03:27, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

Delete. Sum of parts.,--Dmol 04:47, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

The phrase is a proper name and trademark. Of course you can't infer this from the sum of its parts. Mac OS has a status and significance which Mac operating system lacks. —Michael Z. 2009-05-05 13:51 z

Exactly, and this leaves us with the attestation part. Move to RfV -- Prince Kassad 13:56, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

Is that necessary? It'll be easy enough to find plenty instances of “Mac OS desktop,” “Mac OS apps,” “Mac OS systems,” “Mac OS machines,” “Mac OS market” (these are actual quotes from americancorpus.org) —Michael Z. 2009-05-05 14:33 z

Those would usually not be good cites (except perhaps the "market" ones): See WT:CFI#Brand_names and the more detailed Wiktionary:Criteria for inclusion/Brand names.—msh210℠ 23:10, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

It is a trademark for a specific brand of OS. Keep for the same reason as Windows: it's common and does have attributive usage. Equinox ◑ 16:27, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

Send to RFV.—msh210℠ 23:10, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

This sets a bad precedent. A term shouldn't be considered idiomatic only because it is a brand name. Clearly this is Mac + OS, probably attestable, even by brand name criteria, but not idiomatic. Delete. DAVilla 08:07, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Maybe. I don't know about idiomatic, but we have separate heading for proper names, and separate entries for significant capitalization (the latter can be problematic).

It looks like the phrase “Mac OS” may have been used rarely as Mac (“Macintosh,” informal abbr., attr.) + OS (“operating system,” abbr), techie shorthand for “Macintosh operating system.” But when Apple adopted this as an official name in 1995, then Mac OS took on a new meaning, or at least new connotation, used in a different context and register. The OS part was now capitalized as part of a proper noun, rather than just as an initialism. The term went from jargon to the new proper name for software separated from its hardware (Apple introduced this name for their OS when it started to ship on non-Apple clones, first in the splash screen and later as the official name). If this usage doesn't warrant a definition, then why isn't Windows just an alternate capitalization of windows? —Michael Z. 2009-05-11 04:30 z

Mac OS was SoP even before Apple adopted it. Windows doesn't have any parts to sum. DAVilla 12:37, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Then shall I file RfD's for Academy Awards, Mercedes-Benz, Sesame Street, Victoria's Secret, Häagen-Dazs, Pan-Cake, Tetra Pak, etc, citing lack of metaphorical citations? —Michael Z. 2009-05-25 23:21 z

Judging from Google Book hits, most of these would pass an RFV, Häagen-Dazs barely so. I'm not at all sure about Pan-Cake due to the difficulty of searching, and Tetra Pak I have the least confidence in. But the others would just be a waste of someone's valuable time. DAVilla 04:32, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Adding good quotations is certainly not a waste. I'm just trying to pin down the principal, and on which side of it these terms fall. —Michael Z. 2009-05-27 03:36 z

Revise: Conditional delete. To be admitted I would want to see metaphoric use per the suggested CFI on specific entities. DAVilla 19:14, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

In other words, I guess I would RFV after all, but looking for specific citations. Metaphoric use counters the non-idiomatic sum-of-parts argument. DAVilla 04:32, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

[edit] hexadecimal notation

The definition is fine, but I think this is non-idiomatic sum of parts. Compare the more or less equally common binary notation, octal notation, etc. (for different bases), and also similar constructs like shorthand notation. Putting the two words together doesn't, as far as I can see, say anything unique and dictionary-worthy. Equinox ◑ 21:08, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

• Delete or improve. The definition seems wrong to me - it describes it as a number system, whereas it is actually the representation of that system. SemperBlotto 21:37, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
• Delete SoP.—msh210℠ 22:53, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
• Delete, hexadecimal covers this already. SoP. Mglovesfun 15:46, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
• Keep: it's SoP according to hexadecimal, but hexadecimal should be corrected: by itself, it doesn't convey the idea of using 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,A,B,C,D,E,F, just as decimal does not convey the idea of using 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9 (other symbols are used as well in some countries). And I think that hexadecimal notation does convey this idea (unless I'm wrong). Of course, the same applies to octal notation, etc. Lmaltier 16:18, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
  • I don't think hexadecimal notation conveys that.—msh210℠ 18:21, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Keep. Improve hexadecimal and hexadecimal notation. Our definition at [[hexadecimal]] is ahistorical, not having the original and most general definition of the adjective ("relating to the number 16"). The noun "hexadecimal" is almost certainly a shortening of "hexadecimal notation", though I don't know the point of splitting the etymology in the entry. And any symbolic representation of a base-16 number system would still be "hexadecimal", though obviously the most common use is as (poorly) defined in the entry. DCDuring TALK 18:45, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Re: "The noun 'hexadecimal' is almost certainly a shortening of 'hexadecimal notation'": Given that there are so many synonymous phrases of the form "hexadecimal + <noun>" (hexadecimal notation, hexadecimal form, hexadecimal representation, etc.), how can you tell which one it's a shortening of? My own experience doesn't lead me to feel that it's a shortening of any specific one of them, but I'm definitely open to that possibility, if there's evidence for it. —Ruakh_TALK 19:56, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Right. My point should have been hexadecimal#Adjective (original meaning) > use in phrases (with "system", "form", "notation", "format", "code", "number", etc) with meaning like what's in entry > hexadecimal#Noun > hex. To not have a representative of the intervening step would make it difficult to present such evolution, should we wish to, without either redlinks or links to WP.

hexadecimal notation seems to me to be the best representative. Looking at OneLook, 37 references have "hexadecimal"; 11: "hexadecimal notation"; 9: "hexadecimal system"; 4: hexadecimal number and hexadecimal digit. Only Wordnet and Collins among the non-copycat dictionaries have hexadecimal notation, but it the only compound term that any lexical authorities have included. DCDuring TALK 20:54, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Delete. This is a general occurrence with "X notation", it's hard to define X on it's own - it seems (on my highly huge guesswork/not really understanding scale) to be a noun describing a type of representation that is often used attributively for clarification: "Numbers are given in hexadecimal", "I wrote the number in hexadecimal notation", "I used hexadecimal format to write the number", "I can read the hexidecimal representation of a number". I had the same problem trying to define dotted decimal. Conrad.Irwin 09:09, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Change from delete to weak delete, what you've said above is true, however if you want to know the definition you can still look up hexadecimal and notation and voilà! Mglovesfun 14:05, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

I have added #hexadecimal number, driven by my hobgoblin. DCDuring TALK 20:30, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

[edit] chocolate chunk

Pretty SoP. What says the comunidade? — [ R·I·C ] opiaterein — 18:03, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

delete But: both terms are polysemic (5 senses each). By our current arguments, which seem to be offered and accepted in good faith, this might be included. The results of this seem preposterous to me, both in general and in the instant case. DCDuring TALK 18:22, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Consider someone who bakes a mammoth chocolate-chunk cookie, say some yards in diameter, so as to get into the record books. I would accept the ingredients as "chocolate chunks" even if they were mammoth also. Thus, chocolate chunk is not "a chunk of chocolate of a particular size" but rather simply "a chunk of chocolate that cannot be better called by another name (such as 'chocolate chip' or 'chocolate bar')" — and so a sum of its parts. Delete.—msh210℠ 18:49, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Weak keep, as per chocolate chip. Mglovesfun 12:16, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Delete This is just a chunk of chocolate, with no defined shape or use (while a chocolate chip is actually not chipped from chocolate). —Michael Z. 2009-05-07 15:02 z

Weak keep Chocolate chunks have a peculiarity that they hardly exist outside of other things. Only chocolate chunks things (chocolate chunk break, cookies, cake etc.) are easily found in real life. Also noticeable that commercial chocolate chunks (those used in 90% of these chocolate chunk things anyway) are actually molded or cut to a defined size, rather than broken the way "general" chunks are. In fact, they remind of "chocolate squares", a more-or-less standardized size references used for cooking-grade chocolates (a "square" being a rectangular broken piece along the lines molded in the piece). Circeus 01:53, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

We break up slabs of baker's chocolate to make the cookies (I recommend adding pecans). I haven't even seen pre-packaged chocolate chunks. Wouldn't they be in the grocery aisle next to grated cheese and baked pizza crust? —Michael Z. 2009-05-11 03:29 z

That wouldn't be practical on a commercial, much less industrial scale. That's why you can buy them from many chocolate makers. Note that almost all of them are square/rectangular, and that in the first case, they are qualified because it is clearly NOT expected that they would be irregularly shaped by default. Circeus 02:22, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

My point is that chocolate chunks aren't only an industrial product, and perhaps mainly not one. I looked at the first 10 Google Books results for "chocolate chunk" OR "chocolate chunks": (all are recipes) of 7 with previews, five called for chopping up baker's chocolate, two simply called for unqualified “chocolate chunks”.

Going by this very tiny corpus, chocolate chunks are just chunks of chocolate. —Michael Z. 2009-05-12 17:57 z

Delete per Michael Z. et alii. † ﴾^(u):Raifʻhār ^(t):Doremítzwr﴿ 18:27, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Chocolate piece(s) cookies, chocolate bit(s) cookies, chocolate square cookies... this seemed like it could be a set phrase at first, but I'm having a hard time justifying it in my mind, maybe because it's still a neologism that is not well enough defined to be idiomatic, as chocolate chips are with their well-known conical shape. DAVilla 14:13, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

[edit] humble abode

[edit] humble home

Both SoP.—msh210℠ 19:48, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Delete both Being a cliché isn't one of the CFI. —Michael Z. 2009-05-07 15:04 z

Yeah, should delete these I think. Equinox ◑ 15:07, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Agree, both now deleted. Mglovesfun (talk) 19:08, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] chip butty

[edit] bacon butty

These are defined as "a sandwich with butter and [bacon|chips]". Really? Our entry butty just says a sandwich, no mention of butter. if all our definitions are correct and complete, then these entries are not SoP — but I doubt that that's the case. Any Rightpondians wish to chime in here, please?—msh210℠ 19:55, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

• "A rightpondian responds" - I think that our definition of butty is not good enough. I'm pretty sure that it (originally?) means a slice of bread and butter (or equivalent spread), with or without something else spread on top. It has acquired the meaning of sandwich as it moved south. When I make a bacon butty, I don't put any butter (etc.) on the bread as the bacon is fatty enough. (chip butties are beyond my personal ken, but would seem to be treated the same) SemperBlotto 08:54, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

As above, you can put almost anything in a butty, particularly chips, egg and bacon. Probably a weak delete' because chip butty is a set phrase in the UK, albeit it's a butty with chips in it. Mglovesfun 12:13, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Keep. In the U.S., we don’t know what that is. Probably needs a Common misspellings redirect from bacon booty, which is how I think most Americans would try to spell it. chip butty needs work. I assume it doesn’t mean American potato chips, but probably french fries. —Stephen 13:28, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

bacon buttie and chip buttie are attestable as well I think. I'm pretty sure that we have buttie. Oh we don't, hang on I'll find a citation. Mglovesfun 14:13, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

No, in the U.S. we don't know what a butty is. If I know what a butty is, then I know what a bacon|chip butty is. Or am I misunderstanding what you wrote, SGB?—msh210℠ 18:24, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

[edit] gravitational convection

Encyclopedic. RfD tagged in Feb, 2009; not yet discussed here. DCDuring TALK 01:23, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Mostly needs a good whacking of the trimmer, but probably worth a definition. Circeus 05:11, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Agree, keep. Mglovesfun 14:02, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Keep. I wasn't aware gravity convects. Actually it doesn't intransitively, only transitively. I.e. the fluid is convecting, and gravity causing it. Not entirely obvious. DAVilla 08:00, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Is our new procedure to take a vote as whether anyone is unfamiliar with the term? Is that in WT:CFI? Is WT:CFI a dead letter? Why isn't this just an "only in Wikipedia" entry? DCDuring TALK 11:48, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

You're confusing "having too much encyclopedic content" and "not satisfying CFI". The former is ground for trimming, not deletion. I have no idea where in WT:CFI you can read it is. Circeus 01:41, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

My comment was tongue in cheek. I wasn't aware gravity convects because gravity in fact does not convect (itself, i.e. intransitively), but it does effect convection on something else. Or maybe it does convect, in some sort of wave phenomenon? But that would have nothing to do with liquids or the sense in question.

Two nouns like snow train can have different interpretations depending on how you think the parts might fit together. Does it carry snow? Is it made of snow? Does it plow the snow aside for a regular train? Sometimes you have to forget you know what the term means, and see if the correct answer is attainable and certain, if it jumps out at you. This one does not, as it would seem to pertain to the gravity field itself.

I did not mean simply that I was unfamiliar with (the science of) gravitational convection, and I would find those terms shaky if used to decide these matters. (Stephen's comments are excused on the basis that he almost always votes to keep.) DAVilla 13:46, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Keep and trim. I don't see what makes this any less valid than forced convection, free convection or natural convection. It just has a lot more words. The entire description of what gravitational convection is doesn't need to be there, just the most important parts. Summarize. Concisely. — [ R·I·C ] opiaterein —

I'd be happy to run the other convection terms through the process for "fairness". Each entry should be standing on its own, however.

Is this an idiom? Can a dictionary definition do it justice? Does it make sense to someone who "understands" gravity and convection? Would template {{only in}} be more helpful or less misleading than a two-line definition? DCDuring TALK 03:03, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

[edit] application domain

def seems wrong. But also probably SoP. DCDuring TALK 01:29, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

I can’t guess the meaning, so it isn’t SoP. It it’s really a term, it should be defined by somebody who knows what it is. —Stephen 13:21, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Confusingly, WP has two separate articles that don't link to each other: w:Application Domain (the Microsoft .NET software concept, which is what this entry was defining) and w:Application domain (unrelated broader term where a "domain" is a sub-discipline). I have rewritten the def (in the given Microsoft sense) to try to make it a bit clearer. Equinox ◑ 15:03, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

As I understand it, in programming, an "application domain" is the (virtual) space in which the application rules as reserved by its liege, the .NET framework. This does make us into a bit of a shill for Microsoft. How does it work in other realms? Would this be a good use of {{only in}}, pointing at Wikipedia? DCDuring TALK 15:27, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Yes, this term exists only in the .NET world. Mind you, I think the same thing applies to delegate, and I'd be sorry to lose that. Equinox ◑ 15:53, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

The closest in IBM mainframe programming is the "problem state" - the state in which application programs run, as opposed to "supervisor state" in which the operating system runs and can execute more powerful op-codes. SemperBlotto 15:34, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

I don't think that's entirely the same. The "application domain" isn't a restricted domain for applications only, like userland: it is per application, so you might have Excel, Word and Notepad all running in separate application domains (supposing they were .NET applications). Equinox ◑ 15:47, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Interesting. This really just seems like a metaphor to an outsider, but it must have a life of its own. Can the use of a metaphor by a single vendor and its minions be deemed independent use? Is Microsoft like IUPAC for chemical names and the French Academy for French, the authority on language within its domain? DCDuring TALK 17:08, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Well, Microsoft dictates the language of its own technologies, yes — not only because you must use their terms to be easily understood by other .NETters, but also because the languages tend to enforce the terminology. (For example, if you want to do something to an application domain in your source code, you are likely to have to instantiate the AppDomain class: that's its built-in name.) IMO, the real question is whether we consider the technology (.NET generally, and app domains specifically) broad and important enough for inclusion in a dictionary. I would say this is a relatively obscure term and I expect some proportion of professional .NET programmers haven't had to care about them. Equinox ◑ 21:49, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

[edit] moot point

An important collocation whose quotes are worth salvaging for moot, but a SoP nonetheless that offers virtually nothing that cannot be covered in moot. Circeus 05:13, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Keep, SoP yes but it's a set phrase rather than two words put randomly together. The example above would be chocolate chip -- that's just a chip made out of chocolate, but it's also a set phrase. Mglovesfun 14:05, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Delete. I don't think it's much of a set phrase, since I equally often see "The point is moot." Equinox ◑ 15:05, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Keep In 3 OneLook legal dictionaries, Websters 1913, and AHD. Also a contranym that users probably need help with. See WorldWideWords. DCDuring TALK 15:40, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Isn't it moot that's the contranym?—msh210℠ 15:52, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

I'd love to keep this, since, per DCDuring, people may look it up. So let me try to see whether we can somehow get it to fit into the CFI  :-) . Here are some options:

• Keep as a redirect to [[moot]]. WT:REDIR seems to forbid this, but is not quite explicit.
• Keep under the "Once one goeth black" test, since moot used to mean only "debatable" whereas moot point means only or largely "undebatable point".
• If moot point means only "undebatable point", then keep under the "fried egg" test.

That last is the strongest argument for keeping imo, assuming its hypothesis is met.—msh210℠ 15:52, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

In the 99 uses of "moot point" at COCA, only 1 (academic) use seemed to me to be clearly meaning "open to/worth further discussion", as opposed to "no longer worth serious consideration/good only for idle discussion". So, it would all depend on what the meaning of only is. DCDuring TALK 16:49, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Maybe moot point is idiomatic, but I can't find anything in CFI about set phrases. (A chocolate chip is not chipped out of chocolate, nor shaped like a chip. It's not S-o-P.)

Why don't we list common or set-phrase S-o-P compounds and derived terms under the component entries without linking? Then “moot point” could be easily found under both moot and point by searching. —Michael Z. 2009-05-07 16:40 z

If you mean a chip like a small stone, yes it is! Mglovesfun 20:53, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Naw, a stone chip is typically a small, angular stone fractured or chipped from a larger (as opposed to a round pebble, perhaps). Similarly, wood chips are the result of chopping, cutting, carving, and so on. Chocolate is often chipped, for example when you break a bar of it, but the small bits resulting from that are not what we conventionally call chocolate chips. Chocolate chips are formed from hardened droplets, with flat bottoms. —Michael Z. 2009-05-08 06:35 z

The reason might be to keep our entry as short as possible. DCDuring TALK 16:49, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

I'd like to keep it, per being a set phrase. Which brings me to the point that WT:CFI should IMHO better be extended to allow set phrases. The only problem I can see with this is how to recognize a set phrase using a verifiable and easily decidable rule, other than the commonality of the collocation. A provisional solution is to let set phrase undefined, and let people argue about what is and what is not a set phrase per case-to-case basis. This arguing is going to provide candidate differentia from which a definition of set phrase for the purpose of WT:CFI can be built. There is at least one axiom that constrains the meaning of set phrase: a term may be a set phrase and yet be a sum of parts or border on being sum of parts.

Once we allow set phrases, the fact that certain dictionaries have the term will support, though not prove, the hypothesis that the term in question is a set phrase.

One criterion showing that "moot point" is a set phrase, along with the commonality, is that "moot" does not combine freely with other nouns, but only with "point", provided I am correct in this assumption. For contrast, "blue cup" can be also common, just that, unlike "moot" in "moot point", "blue" combines freely with nouns denoting physical objects. --Dan Polansky 21:55, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Unfortunately this doesn't seem to be an easy case. COCA has 226 uses of "moot" followed by a noun. 19 are single instances, some possibly erroneous; 4 involve Proper noun "Moot". 100 are of "moot point(s)"; 47 are of moot court(s), nearly 75% of the core usage. But "case" (23), "issue" (10), and "question" (18) also get significant usage, though "case" seems to be mostly from a single academic article. It is not yet unproductive, at least in written works, especially in a legal/legislative context. DCDuring TALK 00:15, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

I should have done my research first; thank you for the COCA numbers. So the criterion of lack of free combination is not so simple as I had wished. Yet, the other combinations of "moot" that you mention may be further candidates for set phrases. Like, for "moot case", there is this quotation:

'The term "moot case" has been used on various occasions to describe issues that are or ...'[16]

suggesting to me that the term is in need of explanation. The same term is used by [17]:

"The old prohibition on the decision of moot cases is now so riddled with exceptions that it is almost a matter of discretion whether to hear a moot case."

--Dan Polansky 09:30, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

FWIW, if we use the broader context form: you get 140 use of moot within four words of "point". "Issue" returns 50 hits, "question" is 55, and "problem" is 11. Yes it's a set phrase. So are silent film and picky eater. Neither of these three has any sort of elements that cannot be deduced by looked at the two words separately in a dictionary. Circeus 03:16, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

The term "silent film" should get an entry. In Czech, it is called "němý film", literally translated back to English as "mute film" or "dumb film", as "němý" stands for "mute, dumb (not having the power of speech)"; in German, it is Stummfilm. "Should" of course means not with reference to the non-SoP criterion; it is this criterion that I am criticizing for being too stringent, ruling out too many entries.

The German case shows that per the non-SoP criterion, whether a term makes it into Wiktionary depends on such happenstances as whether it is written together as one word. Like, there is a potential discussion about "silent film", but not about "Stummfilm" and "headache", which is but an ache of head.

One more note on the non-SoP criterion: the criterion asks whether the meaning of the term can be derived from its parts. But there is the other direction, which asks whether the term can be derived from the meaning. It is this other direction that likely fails for non-native speakers, as is the case with "silent film". Once you present me with the term "silent film", I correctly estimate that it means "film accompanied by no sound, as produced during the early times of film". But when you present me with the definition "film accompanied by no sound" before I have seen the term "silent film", I have difficulties coming up with the term "silent film"; based on the Czech and German terms, I would probably improvise "dumb film". This is not the case will freely combining adjectives such as "blue" in "blue cup".

This criterion of the other direction, from definition to term, also applies to "headache": while I can estimate the meanining of "headache" from the meanings of "head" and "ache", I cannot estimate "headache" from "the pain in the head" unless I already know the term "headache". --Dan Polansky 09:35, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

While I see the argument (I actually made the same with regard to cherry blossom~桜), this opens the door wide to a multiplication of increasingly improbable entries (i.e. "talk with irony", "be ironic" for ironiser) based on whether the foreign word is a set phrase or not. Circeus 16:14, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

I agree that terms like silent film should have an entry. That particular combination implies many things not present in the simple combination of the two words, such as a range of dates, a style of acting, the fact that it will be black-and-white, etc. That said, moot point does not carry such additional connotation. I can say "That is a moot point" or I can say "That point is moot." This entry ought to be deleted, as far as I can see. --EncycloPetey 21:11, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

These are encyclopedic facts about silent films, not defining characteristics of the word “silent film”. Although mentioning some of them may help the dictionary reader, it may not. I've seen silent films made in the 21st century. —Michael Z. 2009-05-11 05:41 z

Delete unfortunately. I do like the collocation, but there's just no way to measure their worth. Idiomatically, it fails. DAVilla 08:02, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. Delete as per EP and DAVilla. While we're about it, I would approve the creation of "silent film". -- ALGRIF talk 12:18, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

I should have read DCDuring more carefully. The meaning has changed over time, to be the opposite of what it once was. An almost certain keep. DAVilla 13:35, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Except that it hasn't, the evolution is that of moot, "moot point" has not "evolved" by itself by any definition of "evolved". Circeus 03:15, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Their histories seem intertwined. Moot could have derived its modern meaning from the use in this very phrase. DAVilla 19:11, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

• Keep, important common collocation. Ƿidsiþ 21:23, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

[edit] North Queensland

Not an official term for any part of Queensland, so North Queensland is just sum-of-parts.--Dmol 08:20, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Presumably created from the WP article, which does capitalise it as though it were a single unit. But perhaps they just wanted to give the northern part its own article? Equinox ◑ 10:11, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

But there is no place named North Queensland. (With capital letters). Nor is there a South, East or West, as proper nouns. It's just a vague reference to the undefined northern part of the state, like saying north Utah or southern Manitoba. Having an article in Wikipedia does not mean there should be Wiktionary entry for the same name. --Dmol 10:57, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Vagueness is not a criterion. "Appalachia", "the w:Adarondacks", "Scythia", and the City (part of London) are all vague. WT:CFI makes no special provision for gazeteer entries. We are in "common-law" mode relying on precedent. Who remembers and can find the cases? If you can't, you have to rely on those who can. Nice system. DCDuring TALK 11:17, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Keep - This nomination is ridiculous, the term "North Queensland" is often used to describe a portion of Queensland. There is an article on it at Wikipedia w:North Queensland and a Google search comes up with Results 2,760,000 for "North Queensland". (0.42 seconds) WritersCramp 13:25, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Keep. See also Northern Europe, Central Europe, Southern Europe, Eastern Europe, Southern European, Central European, etc. — [ R·I·C ] opiaterein — 13:53, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Keep. Like North America. Queensland is very big and has distinct regions usued in government planning and general reference —This unsigned comment was added by 121.209.0.23 (talk • contribs).

Looking through Google Books,[18] and americancorpus.org, I see that this is capitalized both ways. Someone should examine the results to see if there's any difference in meaning. —Michael Z. 2009-05-08 16:54 z

I’ve made some significant changes and think they should pass scrutiny. Firstly, I’ve taken out the category “States of Australia” as North Queensland is not a state. It is just the northern part of the state of Queensland. I’ve removed the Related Term, as it listed the Northern Territory as a part of Queensland. It’s not, and I had already corrected this. And I have changed the definition, removing - The group of northern territories in the state of Queensland in Australia – which implies there is a set of defined territories, which is not the case. I have put in - The northern part of the state of Queensland, loosely defined as being north of either Rockhampton or Mackay – with an informal tag.

This should cover the fact that there is no official definition of North Queensland, it is always informal. If no-one objects to these changes, I'll take out the RFD. (Will wait for consensus)--Dmol 02:58, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

My problem with this is that there is an apparent difference between "north Queensland" (a generic term for the northern part) and "North Queensland" (capitalised and apparently a geographically noteworthy region, as North America is). The whole basis of this RFD was that "North Queensland" is not a unit, or not a particular district. Of course you can put "north" on any place, even the tiniest village, but for it to be a dict entry there should be some evidence of the term being a unit. I think my one weak citation suggests that this is true, but I'd really like to see more concrete evidence. Equinox ◑ 03:38, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

The problem is that there is some usage of North Queensland, which incorrectly gives the impression that it is an official name for the region. Better to have an accurate definition which at least defines the rough boundaries of the region, than to have a definition that consisted of inaccurate info and related terms. I still don’t think it belongs, and fear opening the floodgates to all sorts of new entries.
But I'll wait for this to run its course. Cites are needed.--Dmol 05:15, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

For inclusion in the dictionary, it doesn't matter whether this is an official administrative or government subdivision, or whether its boundaries are defined at all. These are encyclopedic qualities of the referent.

It matters whether the usage of the term meets our lexicographical CFI. Whether north Queensland is different from North Queensland also depends on usage, and we should cite some quotations which either support or deny this. —Michael Z. 2009-05-09 14:33 z

[edit] dog-

1. The second sense says it means "very"; I think it means "as a dog"/"like a dog".
2. The "as a dog"/"like a dog" sense (as in "dog-eared", "dog-faced", etc) is missing, in any event.
3. If it does not mean "very", it is a combining form, not a suffix, I think, and, therefore, not includable under our current prevailing practice. DCDuring TALK 18:19, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Sense 2 should go. Equinox ◑ 18:24, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

The "very" sense is colloquial. Do we not have dog-tired? (preview) Yeah, see? As such, sense two shouldn't go. The difference is probably regional, subtle. — [ R·I·C ] opiaterein — 14:54, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Is there any evidence of use as "very" in another term? (Suggestions: dog-weary, dog-cheap, dog-end, dog-poor) Is the meaning "canine-free"? DCDuring TALK 15:21, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Delete, it's not a prefix it's just the word dog used in combination with another word. What would you say to -stealer as in sheep-stealer, dog-stealer etc. It's not a suffix, just dog + stealer linked with a hyphen. Mglovesfun 15:59, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Delete. This isn't a prefix; dog is a word in its own right. Words formed from dog are thus compounds in the form "word + word" or "word + suffix", not "prefix + word". --EncycloPetey 15:27, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Not even Affixes (from WorldWideWords), which seems more inclusive than we are with regards to what it calls a suffix or a prefix, includes this. DCDuring TALK 16:21, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Further comments on the use of the dog for similes:

Dyce (Remarks, &c., p. 105) appropriately quotes from the Water Poet :—

Many pretty ridiculous aspersions are cast vpon Dogges, so that it would make a Dogge laugh to heare and vnderstand them : As I haue heard a Man say, I am as hot as a Dogge, or, as cold as a Dogge ; I sweat like a Dogge (when indeed a Dog never sweates), as drunke as a Dogge, hee swore like a Dogge; and one told a Man once, That his Wife was not to be beleev'd, for shee would lye like a Dogge.— Workes, The World runnes on Wheeles, p. 232(1630).

Thou dogged Cineas, hated like a dogge, / For still thou grumblest like a nasty dogge, / Compar'st thyself to nothing but a dogge; / Thou saith thou art as weary as a dogge, / As angry, sicke, and hungry as a dogge, / As dull and melancholly as a dogge, / As lazy, sleepy, idle as a dogge. [19] DCDuring TALK 16:38, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Hello World

Although I'm well aware of the "hello world" program, this feels rather too encyclopaedic and misplaced. 1. The common noun is "uncountable" and "attributive", which suggests it's really just a name being stuck onto "program", as I might say "Code Cracker program" or "Wikipedia Vandaliser program". 2. The proper noun, then, I must agree with, right? Well, no, because I don't think the titles of individual programs are dictionary material, even when it's a common sort of program. Opinions? Equinox ◑ 21:43, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

For what it's worth, google books:"the hello world of" suggests that it merits inclusion. —Rod (A. Smith) 21:56, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Wow, good find, even though most of them are in self-conscious "coinage" quotes. But since it's a separate sense (a sort of nerdy synonym for ABC, the fundamentals) it doesn't change my feeling about the invalidity of what we already have. Equinox ◑ 22:03, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Strong keep as noun or proper noun or both. I prefer just the proper noun. DAVilla 04:44, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

I have now cleaned this up to my own satisfaction, and I brought it here, so kept and striking. Thanks for the input. Equinox ◑ 15:16, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] law of diminishing marginal utility

See WT:RFDO#Transwiki:law of diminishing marginal utility. DCDuring TALK 10:36, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

What's next, second law of thermodynamics? "Only in WP" (where it redirects to a section) would be appropriate. DCDuring TALK 10:50, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Keep, definitely not just SoP and not easy to understand even by looking up the individual words. I'd rather that we improve the article than delete it. Mglovesfun 16:01, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

That criterion is not in WT:CFI. It's not easy for me to understand why it always rains on weekends, but that doesn't make it includable. What you say is what encyclopedias are for: concepts that fit into a framework. DCDuring TALK 16:34, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

I have to admit you have a point... hmmm. Mglovesfun 18:30, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

I may be wrong; I may be overruled or out-argued. I am not especially biased against technical terms, especially in economics and business. For example, marginal utility seems like a good term for us. DCDuring TALK 18:46, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

I don't have to know what the law is, I just have to know that it is a law about a particular something we already define, to be sum of parts. Delete. DAVilla 08:46, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

I agree. Delete. Equinox ◑ 11:49, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

On the other hand it SoP is not sufficient grounds for deleting. Could this be kept on the prior knowledge principle? I just think it's strange that the title says it all. DAVilla 11:12, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

I don't know. The term is not just SoP; it refers to the law of diminishing marginal utility, which can be succinctly stated to fit into a dictionary format. However, this opens door for all kinds of terms denoting particular entities, including the mentioned "second law of thermodynamics". I wonder how Murphy's law would fare, and under what policy item from WT:CFI. There are some eponyms, definitely not SoP, but also laws: Bragg's law, Kepler's laws, Metcalfe's law, Coulomb's law, Murphy's law, Boyle's law, Charles's law, Hooke's law, Hubble's law, Kirchhoff's current law, Kirchhoff's voltage law, Newton's first law, Newton's second law, Newton's third law, Ohm's law. --Dan Polansky 11:55, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

...Poincaré conjecture.—msh210℠ 17:15, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

why it always rains on weekends is not a specific, real thing. If law of diminishing marginal utility is a specific, real thing, then keep. I have no idea what it is and I can’t deduce a definition from its parts. If I wanted to know the meaning, the only way I could would be to look up the term, not the parts. —Stephen 18:46, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

I am trying to understand your interpretation of or replacement ‎for WT:CFI. As‎ I understand it, no "specific, real thing" unfamiliar to you (presumably limited to the attestable) should be excluded. I assume that for "you" we can substitute "any person". What would be the status of items not real and/or not specific?

In any event, I cannot find this in WT:CFI and consequently take this to be a proposed replacement therefor. I look forward to BP discussion of this at your earliest convenience. DCDuring TALK 21:13, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Which parts? [[law]]? [[diminishing marginal utility]]? [[marginal utility]]? [[marginal]]? utility? The set of concepts are elementary parts of economics that make little sense without the whole apparatus. IOW, encyclopedic. I could see an entry for [[marginal utility]], but the others seem to be of no utility. DCDuring TALK 21:29, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Do you think "diminishing marginal utility" is clear in what the utility of an item is diminishing with respect to? Maybe it's not, yet I'd rather have this law that that phrase alone, since "diminishing marginal utility" by itself, even if it is idiomatic, is superseded in significance by this law as statement of fact. This is what makes the opposite "increasing marginal utility" nonsensical. Those are not good grounds to keep, they are fuzzy concepts that make me worried to let this slip by. I think it's better to err on the side of caution and keep what our gut says is right. Keep the law as used in economics rather than nonsensical antonyms. On the other hand, I'm not entirely convinced we have to keep any of it, and I'm not particularly fond of lemmings. DAVilla 04:47, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

I think even marginal utility is somewhat suspect, but it affords the opportunity to provides links to the encyclopedic discussion that is required and clarify the sense of marginal involved. This RfV is just about the five-word headword, which had seemed so OTT that I would have been inclined to delete it on sight at Transwiki. This is not exactly widespread. The RfV'd term does not appear in COCA; "diminishing marginal utility" appears once. marginal utility appears 10 times, only 4 of which are academic. DCDuring TALK 16:55, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Mapudungun alphabet

Seems like a simple sum of parts. "Mapudungun alphabet" just means the alphabet of the Mapudungun language (despite the fact that multiple possibilities exist). Dominic·t 21:08, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

I would never figure out what this article describes just by looking up the individual words. Concise and informative, keep. —Stephen 23:17, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Keep, based on the fact that there is currently no one "Mapudungun alphabet", and on my assumption that someone is more likely to search for that term than Raguileo alphabet, Unified alphabet or Azümchefe alphabet. Maybe not main-namespace appropriate, but not something that should just be deleted. — [ R·I·C ] opiaterein — 01:16, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Delete or RFV, since I don't think it will pass there. The only Books result is this crappy speculative one: "There are three proposals for a Mapudungun alphabet". Equinox ◑ 11:47, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Delete "based on the fact that there is currently no one 'Mapudungun alphabet'", so this is SoP, meaning any Mapudungun alphabet. I would "figure out what this article describes just by looking up the individual words", since Equinox' cite uses the indefinite article, so I know from context that this is not the name of an alphabet. More, even if some cite uses the definite article, so context does not give away that the meaning is "some alphabet for Mapudungun", since the author actually means a certain one, our entry doesn't help, since it doesn't specify which one.—msh210℠ 17:26, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Delete. —Ruakh_TALK 01:34, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Sum of parts. The alphabet of the Mapudungun language. The fact that there isn't one is encyclopedic. We don't have temperatures below absolute zero either. Delete. DAVilla 12:16, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Move to Appendix. --EncycloPetey 15:24, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Moved to Appendix:Mapudungun alphabet. --Jackofclubs 00:46, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

[edit] -dimensional

This is not a suffix; it is/should be covered at dimensional. DCDuring TALK 15:49, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

More examples in an ongoing discussion at WT:TR#-footed. Equinox ◑ 16:12, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

No, it's a combining form. — Paul G 15:44, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

If we delete such things, they should redirect imo.—msh210℠ 17:16, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

I don't think so. There are just too many, and if you search for "-blah" you will find "blah" in the suggested results below anyway. Equinox ◑ 23:20, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

The redirect doesn't bother me, but it's not a suffix, so delete. Mglovesfun 23:36, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Keep It is not a suffix, but it is a combining form. It allows the formation of terms such as three-dimensional and n-dimensional. —This comment was unsigned.

Should we have all attestable combining forms, eg year- in "year-old", -year in "five-year plan", and -year- in "one-year-old child? Because hyphens are often recommended to clarify the interpretation of compounds in attributive use, almost all nouns, most adjectives, and many adverbs would probably have attestable use for combining forms. This could be the opportunity we've been waiting for: hundreds of thousands of potential entries. DCDuring TALK 16:09, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Keep -dimensional. Should also have -year-old, but not year-, -year-, or -year. —Stephen 18:34, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

[edit] in front of

Sense "facing (someone)": I'm not convinced that this sense is any different from "in the presence of" — at least, the examples suggest they are identical in meaning. If I am in front of a large group of people, I needn't actually be facing them — I could have my back to them — but I am still in their presence. — Paul G 15:38, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

I agree that the definition was no good, but I changed it because I think "in the presence of" doesn't cover the implication of being the antonym of behind (as regards the 3rd def, I may be wrong but I was taught before can't be used in expressions like "in front of the house"). --Duncan 16:23, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Keep. good rewrite, except the example sentence should be moved - consider "in front of the hotel/theatre/cinema" (the hotel/theatre/cinema doesn't really have a presence). A front door/back door--Jackofclubs 19:03, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

You're right. I changed the example sentence as well. --Duncan 20:52, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Good fix, but now how is the third sense any different from the first one? — Paul G 09:09, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

As I was saying, I may be wrong, but according to what I was taught the "before" in the third def implies a queue, a sequence of events etc, so that you couldn't say "Both parties met before the castle [...]". But I admit that (even if I'm right) I'm not certain whether this would warrant the third def, or whether it's covered by the first one. --Duncan 10:00, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

I have found a total of four senses: "ahead of" (queue), "outside the entrance of" (pace Jackofclubs), "in the presence of", and "facing" (a crowd, a mirror, a piece of equipment, a desk) from MWOnline and RHU. If you are "sitting in front of the window", does that mean you are not looking out the window? I'm not sure that even these four senses cover everything common. DCDuring TALK 01:09, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Re: "If you are "sitting in front of the window", does that mean you are not looking out the window?": I don't think it means that, no. At least, not always. google books:"sitting in front of the window looking" gives context for six hits (out of seven), and in all of them, the person is in fact looking out. —Ruakh_TALK 02:09, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

[edit] -ridden

Compare with dog- and -dimensional above. Not a suffix, just a combining form. In fact surely overridden is not over suffixed with -ridden, but the other way around! So delete Mglovesfun 23:41, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

This is a strange one. Look at bedridden#Etymology for what I think is a singular case. Words like priest-ridden, angst-ridden, guilt-ridden, hag-ridden, pest-ridden, and war-ridden clearly differ from overridden. I'm not sure that ridden properly conveys the meaning. DCDuring TALK 00:26, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

The same goes for overblown and flyblown, for example. I don't think we need the hyphenated-suffix entry just because the suffix can have more than one meaning. Equinox ◑ 21:27, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Are you sure we shouldn't add ridden-, as in ridden-over? Haven't found any examples of -ridden- -- yet. DCDuring TALK 21:40, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

I don't think we need any of these things! But if "ridden-over" means anything in itself, and isn't just a hyphenated way to describe something over which somebody has ridden (like a bridge!), then tell me; as you see, we don't have an entry. Equinox ◑ 22:00, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps were "to ride over" to be deemed as meeting WT:CFI. The time-wasting aspects of including true entries for combining forms (in the overwhelming majority of cases) seems clear. I could imagine the case for entry where the combining form was currently or recently productive and the unhyphenated (stand-alone) term was not in current or recent use in the same sense. DCDuring TALK 23:22, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

I've added ridden#Adjective which is sometimes used outside of combing forms in the same sense as it is in combining forms. DCDuring TALK 21:40, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Keep -ridden, either as a defined entry or as a redirect. —Stephen 18:30, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

If it's a separate form, it requires a separate entry. bd2412 T 07:07, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Keep. I've seen flea-ridden but never flea ridden or flearidden. bd2412 T 07:07, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Kept Removed the "past tense" definition, kept the second one. --Jackofclubs 15:49, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Uncle Scrooge

Disney character; unlike Mickey Mouse, very unlikely to have any generic sense. Equinox ◑ 14:43, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Found cites and corrected the definition. —Michael Z. 2009-05-16 16:43 z

New sense looks fairly promising, despite a couple of citations with quotation marks, but the 1977 cite refers to an "Uncle Scrooge Money Bin" (a specific thing from the cartoon series, not something belonging to a "rich miser"), so perhaps that one should go. Equinox ◑ 18:46, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Move it to the citations page rather than just deleting. Even if it is not a perfectly qualifying citation for CFI, it may demonstrate how the term is used or contribute to the history of its adoption (or that of another term). You'll notice that in Schraeder 2005, it appears once in quotation marks, but later without, demonstrating that the author introduces it self-consciously, but then just uses it. In the “Money Bin” citation I would argue that Uncle Scrooge is used to introduce the Money Bin, so readers who don't understand the direct reference to the second term would still get the gist of it from the mention of the first. Also notable is that the very first citation may be a transcription of speech. —Michael Z. 2009-05-16 22:19 z

Well, I won't kick up a fuss about the one citation. Closing my own RFD, because the newly created sense seems dictionary-worthy. Equinox ◑ 22:22, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Keep. Good rewrite--Jackofclubs 18:57, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks! —Michael Z. 2009-05-16 22:19 z

Keep as rewritten and cited. --Dmol 21:21, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

This is good too (okay, excellent), but what's wrong with the original definition? (edit:) Why not keep that as well? DAVilla 18:58, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Good question. I don't know if it is possible to find citations which meet CFI's requirement for attributive use and also support a definition of Uncle Scrooge as the cartoon duck. The subject sounds encyclopedic and non-lexicographical to me. In my opinion, the etymology and Wikipedia link already have all the encyclopedic details we need. But only the quotations will tell for sure.

Should we RfV all of the Disney characters for consistency? —Michael Z. 2009-05-21 14:47 z

I think they would all pass, that is, the major characters that we already include. I don't know what to make of attributive use, but it is cited according to both that and the proposed criterion of metaphoric use as well. DAVilla 03:36, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Unstruck after adding back original sense. Keep. DAVilla 03:36, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Huh? There are no quotations concerning cartoon ducks. —Michael Z. 2009-05-26 04:40 z

What good would that do? Do you really doubt this is what it means when not in metaphor? The only question is if it's "noteworthy" enough to keep, in the sense that it has entered the lexicon. Clearly it has. DAVilla 04:53, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Noteworthiness doesn't enter into WT:CFI#Names of specific entities. It says “attributively, with a widely understood meaning,” which describes sense 2, not 1. Barack Obama is noteworthy too, but the person and and the duck don't belong in the dictionary. —Michael Z. 2009-05-27 03:27 z

Thank you for stating the complete obvious. I though that a term entering the lexicon would be a compelling reason to include it, but you've just forged a rock solid rationale on what must be the most contested, ambiguous, and outdated section of CFI. I feel it almost a complete waste to make arguments that aren't taken into consideration in the slightest, other than to be dismissed out of hand. You position I will grant you is totally consistent with itelf, but not consistent with the fact that there are a great number of specific people, characters, and the like on Wiktionary already. If you disagree with this then please vote against my proposal and be done with it. Oh, and you might have to ignore Google Book hits like "Barack Obama supporter" and "Uncle Scrooge comic book". I'm not sure why you might find those sorts of quotations the least bit interesting, but they do meet the holy criterion of CFI section 32 verse 1. DAVilla 07:27, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

The last two are direct references to the specific entities. An Uncle Scrooge comic book is a comic book about Uncle Scrooge. It is a mention of the actual (fictional) duck, not the use of a word stemming from the duck's name; it's as useful for CFI as “Uncle Scrooge said ‘quack.’” A person being mentioned, even a lot, is not the same as their name “entering the lexicon,” that is becoming a word in the language. —Michael Z. 2009-05-30 02:31 z

I agree completely (and not being sarcastic as I partly was above). Although I believe Uncle Scrooge has entered the lexicon, the quotation of "Uncle Scrooge comic book" does not support that assertion. It does however illustrate the literal sense that you disputed, and attributively so, where by attributive I mean in the grammatical sense of modifying a noun. I don't think this is a very good way to judge terms, hence the vote. If you can exemplify another use of attributive then by all means suggest that instead. The examples we have though are not applicable to the types of information we do include. As noted elsewhere, Empire State Building was given as an example of what we do not include until we voted to keep it after all, and you should also know that there are many types of fictional characters included besides just Disney. DAVilla 01:18, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

I certainly do know. That guideline needs clarification, but perhaps not any substantial change (at least if we can agree on what it means). Also, the examples aren't helping with this.

“A name should be included if it is used attributively, with a widely understood meaning.” I believe this means something like “with a widely understood meaning, independent of its referent.” I think it is often applied this way. Does that sum it up? Is that an improved wording? —Michael Z. 2009-05-31 04:19 z

[edit] groodies

Fictional universe? DCDuring TALK 23:09, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Merge into Concordance:A Clockwork Orange, which already has the singular. —Ruakh_TALK 15:40, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

I'd tend to agree. One or two of the Clockwork Orange words have gained currency outside of that one work, but not this one. Subjectively, I see I don't consider Burgess as significant as Joyce and Shakespeare when it comes to nonces. Equinox ◑ 19:03, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

[edit] there

rfd-sense: (in conjunction with verb be) In existence or in this world; mention of unspecified location, somewhere.

there is something amiss.

This doesn't seem right. Other dictionaries call this kind of usage a pronoun, which seems better to me. See there#Pronoun. DCDuring TALK 18:06, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Not really a pronoun, either. I'd lean towards calling it a preposed adverb. Consider:

There is something I'd like to say.

In the letter is something I'd like to say.

This helps (a little) to show that there is not functioning as the subject in the first example. It's merely a sentence order inversion from:

Something I'd like to say is there.

--EncycloPetey 18:40, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

It definitely originates as a preposed adverb, as you say, but its current usage seems to me to have spread out a bit. Firstly, there's certainly been semantic bleaching (consider e.g. "There's something odd here" — or for that matter, "In the letter there's something I'd like to say"); secondly, it's used in cases where I think any other preposed adverb would sound odd (consider e.g. "I expected there to be a problem", "He demanded there be an inquiry"); thirdly, many speakers have granted it singular status regardless of its complement (e.g., "there was an apple and a clock on the table"), and in AAVE it can sometimes (always?) be replaced with "it" (e.g., "people tell me it ain't no way", which I heard on the street last night). —Ruakh_TALK 18:54, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

And all of that can be explained by adverbial status, yes? The additional sentences you've given are still inversion of normal sentence order ("I expected there to be a problem." vs "I expected a problem to be there.") Contraction with the verb is not limited to one part of speech: "The boy's insane!" (noun); "Larry's gone home." (proper noun); "He's not here." (pronoun); "Now's the time to act." (adverb); "Clean's better than dirty" (adjective); "Never again's my motto." (phrase).

The question of "always singular" can be interpreted as "invariant because it's an adverb". Incorrect verb agreement is not limited to this expression, as I often hear manglings such as "We was late," or "None of you walk away now!" Using a singular verb when a plural form is traditionally used is a general phenomenon independent of the use of there. --EncycloPetey 23:44, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

So you would argue that in each of the following pairs, both versions are equally acceptable (or equally unacceptable, in the case of the last one)? :

• There's something odd here. vs. Here's something odd there.
• I expected there to be a problem. vs. I expected here to be a problem.
• He demanded there be an inquiry. vs. He demanded here be an inquiry.
• [pointing at a photograph] There's us. vs. We's right there.

If so, I suspect that you and I must spend time with very different sorts of people. (Note: I'm not specifically saying that it's not an adverb; I don't know for sure. It seems almost meaningless to apply terms like "adverb" and "pronoun" to a single use of a given grammatical word, when no other word shares its grammar. What I am saying is that I think that for many speakers of Standard American English, this usage is simply an expletive subject with delayed semantic subject, just like "it" in "It's well known that the sky is blue." This makes it very tempting to label it a pronoun, since English's only other expletive subject is a pronoun, and it definitely feels more natural to classify a subject as a pronoun than as an adverb.)

—Ruakh_TALK 00:22, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

If we permitted English words to be classified as "Particle", then that's where I'd prefer to see this go. Failing that, I prefer "adverb" (which is a very nebulous category) because it is so closely tied to the verb, and because the label of "Adverb" permits a broader range of functions than does "Pronoun". Oh, and yes, I have indeed heard people say "We's right there," or "There's us," although fortunately not so often now that I live in a different area. --EncycloPetey 01:17, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

I agree that "particle" would be best. And yes, I've also heard both "we's right there" and "there's us", but I really don't see how you can view them as equally (un)acceptable. To me "there's us" is semi-acceptable in some instances and completely acceptable, albeit informal, in others ("Who all is coming?" "Well, let's see … there's the Smiths … there's the Joneses … there's us, of course … and … um, I'm not sure who else."), whereas "we's right there" is always quite unacceptable. (If I were a prescriptivist, I think I'd call "there's us" something like "O.K. in colloquial speech", and "we's right there" something like "please retake kindergarten".) —Ruakh_TALK 01:25, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

So I've thought about it further, and I think you may be right that insofar as we can't use "particle", "adverb" is more accurate than "pronoun"; there's not a clear line between usages like "there you are", where "there" is clearly adverb-like (specifically, I think it's an intransitive preposition), and usages like "there's many books there", where it seems to have ventured off the worn path of any POS. I mean, these two uses are very different from each other, but you can devise a fairly continuous walk from "there you are" to "there’s the book I was reading" to "there's the book I was reading" to "there's a book I was reading" to "there's a book there" to "there's many books there", and it's really impossible to say where on this path it stopped being an adverb and started being a pronoun. Or rather, it's too possible: any step seems reasonable, but none seems convincing. —Ruakh_TALK 18:13, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Is "it" also a "preposed adverb" by this logic? Somehow the etymology seems more important than usage in this classification decision. And we seem to be in disagreement with prevailing lexicographic practice. DCDuring TALK 18:44, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm not really referring to the etymology, but rather to the entire range of current uses, which includes everything from original and obviously-adverbial (or whatever) uses to ???!!!-ial uses that, according to your comment below, cispondian dictionaries call pronominal and transpondian ones adverbial.

As I said above, usage doesn't really support any POS very well. There is no POS that exhibits this sort of behavior. AFAIK English has exactly two expletive subjects: it (otherwise a personal pronoun), and there (otherwise an adverb/adjective/preposition/something). Neither one's expletive use is really predictable from its non-expletive use; and this would hardly be the first time that words of two different parts of speech have overlapping grammar (cf. adjectives and attributive nouns).

Overall, I really hate our need to discretely identify a word's languages, parts of speech, etymologies, etc. These things are not always discrete.

I'm happy to follow cispondian dictionaries in including a pronoun sense — that's certainly more convenient, as it gives us more room in which to explain the range of uses — but I don't see why we can't also follow transpondian dictionaries in listing it as an adverb. ("In existence; see pronoun section below.")

—Ruakh_TALK 19:45, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

That would be fine. I see that some "there [copula]" usage can have more than a hint of adverbial "placeness". Longmans DCE strikes me as a leader in grammar and usage presentation in a dictionary. That they choose to have the pronoun PoS is meaningful and makes it less of a cis-/trans- thing. DCDuring TALK 20:36, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Longman's also has an "in existence" sense under adverb, with these three clearly-non-pronoun example sentences:

The chance was there, but I didn't take it.

The countryside is there for everyone to enjoy.

Three months after the operation, the pain was still there.

These share the semantic bleaching, but not the grammar, of the "there is ___" uses.

—Ruakh_TALK 20:45, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

It wouldn't have occurred to me to try to call those usages pronominal, related though they are semantically. They seem to me to behave more like most normal, boring adverbs. DCDuring TALK 22:31, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

I believe you've mis-read Ruakh's comments. Those instances are marked as "adverb" in Longman. --EncycloPetey 17:35, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Longmans is a leader, yes, but that does not mean that they always make the best choices. I've been trying to decide why the "semantic coloring" argument does sit well with me, and have finally figured out why. Consider the reversibility / non-reversibility of the following parallel constructions:

* "There is an old house on the hill." / "An old house on the hill is there."

* "It is an old house on the hill." / "An old house on the hill is it."

* "Green Gables is an old house on the hill." / "An old house on the hill is Green Gables."

* "Decaying is an old house on the hill." / "An old house on the hill is decaying."

* "Scary is an old house on the hill." / "An old house on the hill is scary."

The first of each pair only sounds right for the first three. The fourth pair's first half sounds odd, and in the fifth pair, the first half of that pair has grammar that would only be found in a fortune cookie. So, an adjective or participle doesn't work for reversibility. In similar fashion, the latter half of the second and third pairs sound wrong. Neither a pronoun nor adjective works properly in the predicate position.

The question, then, is whether the first pair is a reversal in which the meaning is truly preserved, or whether there truly is a shift in the meaning and/or emphasis. I haven't fully decided how I come down on that issue. I can see both as having the same meaning, but perhaps not. Sometimes the second half of the first pair sounds normal, but it can also come out like Yoda-speak. It does seem a bit of an archaic form to me. --EncycloPetey 17:33, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure that I understand, but I'd like to. I think I agree with your readings of the naturalness of all of the sentences above. As to "there": to me the "place" senses could be considered adverbial in all cases. The usages that don't seem to fit are most clearly seen in: "There is a certain something about him that I really like." There_(!!!) could be pointing involved, but not plausibly. "Something there is that doesn't love a wall."

In some of the real cases involving what I consider the quasi-pronominal usage of "there", ambiguity remains because the sentences can be read with a "place" sense. But many cases have left behind even the most virtual kind of spatiality.

In "There is an old house on the hill.", "there" could be about "place", but it is more likely about existence. For it to be about place, it would need extra stress on "there". Then it might be equivalent to "An old house on the hill is there.", which doesn't seem very natural unless "there" is accompanied by physical pointing or is read as equivalent to "An old house-on-the-hill is there." (or "An old-house-on-the-hill is there.") DCDuring TALK 19:12, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Could there have been a pondian cleavage in labeling this. Tellingly, Cambridge American calls it a pronoun; Cambridge Advanced Learners shows the same usage as adverb. Oxford shows adverb. Longmans shows pronoun, as does Collins. Webster's 1913 shows both, but is reticent about calling it a pronoun as was Webster's 1828. Webster's 1828 expresses a somewhat reluctant acceptance of this "meaningless" usage. The other American dictionaries show pronoun, if they cover it (as WNW does not). I suppose that the label doesn't much matter, but keeping it an adverb gives more weight to etymology and Chaucerian usage than to the nature of current usage. DCDuring TALK 19:36, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

[edit] phrasal preposition

SoP.—msh210℠ 17:27, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

See also talk:phrasal preposition.—msh210℠ 18:44, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

I am inclined to the delete position. Although the term locuzione preposizionale exists in Italian, it is quite rare and I only found it by researching it. All the translations are best translated as two words phrasal preposition rather than the single term. SemperBlotto 07:27, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

locution prépositive, however, is very common in French (Because french dictionary define strictly graphic words, we are obsessive what is a word and was is a "locution") and I'd be inclined to say it's not SoP, but it certainly is in English. Circeus 22:53, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Needs a better definition, but keep. Hardly anyone will understand what it means from the separate words. —Stephen 19:48, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Why isn't this called a "compound preposition" in analogy to compound noun? (And why are we missing the latter when we do have compound word?) Easily confused with prepositional phrase as well, which is no less SoP in my opinion. I think it's safer to keep. DAVilla<