Wiktionary:Requests for deletion

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Wiktionary > Requests > Requests for deletion

Wiktionary Request pages (edit) see also: discussions
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Cleanup requests, questions and discussions.

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Requests for verification in the form of durably-archived attestations conveying the meaning of the term in question.

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Requests for deletion of pages in the main namespace due to policy violations; also for undeletion requests.

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Requests for deletion of pages in other (not the main) namespaces, such as categories, appendices and templates.

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Moves, mergers and splits; requests listings, questions and discussions.

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Scope of this request page:

  • In-scope: terms suspected to be multi-word sums of their parts such as “brown leaf”
  • Out-of-scope: terms to be attested by providing quotations of their use

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Scope: This page is for requests for deletion of pages, entries and senses in the main namespace for a reason other than that the term cannot be attested. One of the reasons for posting an entry or a sense here is that it is a sum of parts, such as "brown leaf".

Out of scope: This page is not for requests for deletion in other namespaces such as "Category:" or "Template:", for which see Wiktionary:Requests for deletion/Others. It is also not for requests for attestation. Blatantly obvious candidates for deletion should only be tagged with {{delete|Reason for deletion}} and not listed.

Adding a request: To add a request for deletion, place the template {{rfd}} or {{rfd-sense}} to the questioned entry, and then make a new nomination here. The section title should be exactly the wikified entry title such as "[[brown leaf]]". The deletion of just part of a page may also be proposed here. If an entire section is being proposed for deletion, the tag {{rfd}} should be placed at the top; if only a sense is, the tag {{rfd-sense}} should be used, or the more precise {{rfd-redundant}} if it applies. In any of these cases, any editor including non-admins may act on the discussion.

Closing and archiving requests: A request can be closed when a decision to delete, keep, or transwiki has been reached, or after the request has expired. The deleting administrator should remember to sign. Deletion requests are archived to the talk page of the deleted entry, using {{rfd-passed}} and {{rfd-failed}}; for a model see Talk:piffle and Talk:good job. If you see discussions on this page that were closed in previous months, your help in archiving would be appreciated; it's as simple as cut-and-paste.

Time and expiration: Entries and senses should not normally be deleted in less than seven days after nomination. When there is no consensus after some time, the template {{look}} should be added to the bottom of the discussion. If there is no consensus for more than a month, the entry should be kept as a 'no consensus'.

Oldest tagged RFDs


February 2014[edit]

irreverent[edit]

The sense in question:

  1. Disrespectful, cynical, cavilling, querulous, or vulgar, where one's own feelings, or especially deference to the feelings of others, customarily command silence, discretion, and circumspection.

Which is redundant to:

  1. Lacking proper respect or seriousness; sarcastic.

Aside from being redundant, it's a textbook example of thesaurus abuse... Chuck Entz (talk) 14:08, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

Delete. Pretty much the same sense written in a way that makes it harder to understand. — Ungoliant (falai) 14:24, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
I agree. What also bothers me is that there is a translation section with two senses, and I'm not sure that the glosses correspond to the senses above them, or if they do, which is which. "Lacking proper respect or seriousness; sarcastic." seems to be the only accurate sentence on that entry. I'd keep that, delete the ugly one, merge the translations, and revise the gloss so that it matches. Haplogy () 14:33, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
  • Delete and merge translations as above. bd2412 T 15:22, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Delete and also remove "sarcastic" from the remaining definition. While sarcasm can be irreverent, it is neither a necessary nor a sufficient condition for irreverence. The two are really quite different. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 16:15, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
  • The definitions given seem clearly redundant, but I think translators sometimes don't translate the senses given, but rather their own understanding of the senses the word actually has in the real world. In this case, both "satirical" (not "sarcastic") and "lacking or exhibiting a lack of respect" are distinguishable senses of the word. The lexicographers at AHD agree. Do the translations exhibit this kind of distinction?
Also, very few lexicographers use the word "proper" in the definition. A possible, more neutral neutral substitute is "expected". DCDuring TALK 16:19, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Delete the nominated sense as redundant: "Disrespectful, cynical, cavilling, querulous, or vulgar, where one's own feelings, or especially deference to the feelings of others, customarily command silence, discretion, and circumspection." Do not merge the excessive verbiage of the nominated sense to the 1st sense. Dictionaries having only one sense for "irreverent" (irreverent at OneLook Dictionary Search): Collins, Macmillan, MWO, not AHD (has two senses). We could have two senses, but the nominated sense does not contain anything helpful in constructing them. --Dan Polansky (talk) 09:48, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
  • RFD-sense failed per near unanimity; actually, no boldface keep on the nominated sense. --Dan Polansky (talk) 09:51, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
    By the way, the verbiage was introduced in diff on 23 January 2007. --Dan Polansky (talk) 10:01, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

-aculum[edit]

I'm not sure we ought to have this. The thing is, it doesn't seem to be used with verbs other than those of the first conjugation, whose stem ends in ā- (habitaculum from habito, cenaculum from ceno, spectaculum from specto, ientaculum from iento, potaculum from poto, etc.). Thus it would just be a wrong analysis spect-aculum for specta-culum : it's the suffix -culum (conventiculum, etc.), really. --Fsojic (talk) 13:03, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

Actually the same goes for -atio ~ -tio. --Fsojic (talk) 14:02, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
  • I agree, but I reckon this belongs at WT:RFD instead. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 03:50, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
    Fsjocic has given a cogent analysis that entry was created in error. As I have some recollection of the quality of the creator's work, I can vouch for the possibility of such mistaken analysis. If someone has evidence that there are terms that do not fit Fsjocic's hypothesis that all terms ending in aculum are from first conjugation verbs the evidence can the introduced here. I would think we should not delete this in less than a month to give those who would search for such evidence a chance. DCDuring TALK 19:12, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
    There is a whole book written about this: here. I don't have it at hand at the moment, but hopefully soon. --Fsojic (talk) 19:30, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
Again, the same goes for -abilis, -atum, -atus. There is a lot of questionable material in Category:Latin suffixes. --Fsojic (talk) 19:30, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
Redirects from the with-leading-vowel versions of the suffixes to the without-leading-vowel version might help rationalize these without losing users who are accustomed to the version with vowels. Probably the same logic applies to any Translingual (taxonomic) suffixes, though their meaning and use can be quite distinct from their Latin forebears. DCDuring TALK 01:06, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
  • Delete the putative Latin suffix which should be and is -culum per Fsojic above. The nominated putative suffix was created by DCDuring in April 2008‎. --Dan Polansky (talk) 08:09, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Redirect to -culum, per above arguments. bd2412 T 19:04, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

refreshing[edit]

Is this sense, "Serving to refresh." not redundant following "That refreshes someone; pleasantly fresh and different; granting vitality and energy." ? If not, the meaning is not clear and it ought to be stated more specifically. Haplogy () 05:29, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

I found "It sets the refreshing frame rate to 30 frames per second" (referring to computer displays) but IMO the verb covers that adequately. Equinox 18:24, 1 March 2014 (UTC)
Keep but reword to clarify and add example sentences or example phrases such as "refreshing drink" and "refreshing change". The definition used in the sense is the 1st sense from AHD[1]. Multiple dictionaries have two adjectival senses. AHD has two adjectival senses[2]; MWO has two adjectival senses in the blue box but one sense using the "especially" technique below the blue box[3]; Collins has two adjectival senses[4]; Macmillan has two senses[5]. The first sense that we currently have seems to require splitting or pruning: "That refreshes someone; pleasantly fresh and different; granting vitality and energy." The contrast seems to be between "refreshing drink", and "refreshing change". --Dan Polansky (talk) 09:31, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

March 2014[edit]

biological clock[edit]

Second sense: "The progression from puberty to menopause during which a woman can bear children." I don't think so. The biological clock is most often mentioned in connection with woman's fertile age, but it does not mean that they would be the same thing. This is like saying that "alarm clock" has the sense "sleep". --Hekaheka (talk) 04:03, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

This is more of an RFV matter then, isn't it? --WikiTiki89 04:40, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
That there is some sense or subsense relating specifically to childbearing cannot be doubted. It is the definition that is inadequate. Try substituting it in the citation sentences: Take Linda, a thirty-nine-year-old newscaster who relished her career but began to hear the alarm ringing on her biological clock. It is not so long ago that this was a live metaphor. A possible definition might be "A figurative clock that indicates the decline in a female's ability to bear children." Some such definition should be readily citable, perhaps even under "widespread use". DCDuring TALK 17:06, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
My original thought was that this would be covered with sense #1, but as there is only one cycle involved in the childbearing as opposed to e.g. sleep or metabolism, this could probably be a sense of its own. On the other hand, the female-fertility point of view may be too narrow, as I've seen texts of men's biological clocks. Perhaps something along these lines: "The internal mechanisms regulating the development and ageing of the body of a living thing during its lifetime, used especially to refer to the limited duration of a woman's fertile age." --Hekaheka (talk) 18:43, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
I think references to men's biological clocks are also references to fertility, specifically to things like the quality of one's sperm degrading to the point that it is more likely that a child conceived of that sperm will have genetic problems. Perhaps it's "One's life cycle and tendency to age, seen as a clock that ticks particularly towards a time when one cannot bear healthy children."? (Nah, that's not a good wording.) - -sche (discuss) 19:38, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
I've hardly ever heard biological clock refer to men. Purplebackpack89 22:17, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
One of Funny About Love's taglines was "Everyone has a biological clock. Duffy Bergman's is about to go off." Nothing about the DVD cover implies that it was supposed to be shocking or unusual because of his gender.--Prosfilaes (talk) 01:21, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Keep, maybe reword: The wording might be a little off, but the concept is correct, different from other senses, and passes CFI. Purplebackpack89 22:17, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
I dislike the wording (women can bear children during a progression? Why the word progression?) but it's an RFV issue surely. I think we do need a second sense of this to cover non-scientific usage (for me it would be the first sense because more common) but this isn't it! Renard Migrant (talk) 10:55, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
google books:"man's|male biological clock" gets 135 hits. Purplebackpack89 when you say this passes CFI, are you confident it exists? I'm not. Renard Migrant (talk) 10:58, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
I'm not the guy who said male biological clock exists. Actually, quite the opposite, if you read my first comment on this RfD. My second comment, the one about CFI, is in regards to the sense up for deletion, which doesn't have anything to do with men. Purplebackpack89 13:46, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

aniôn[edit]

Uncommon misspelling of ânion. — Ungoliant (falai) 03:41, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Is this not a matter for RFV? Keφr 07:49, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
I don’t think so. But move it there if you want to, I don’t care. — Ungoliant (falai) 08:06, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
Any supporting evidence? --Dan Polansky (talk) 06:49, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
Some data: Google Books Pt aniôn: 15 hits; Google Books Pt ânion: 2,470 hits; Google books hit ratio: 164. Since the absolute numbers leading to the ratio are rather low, it is hard to judge. Furthermore, some of these allegged 15 hits are clear scannos. This spelling may even be hard to attest. --Dan Polansky (talk) 08:15, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

April 2014[edit]

Gotham[edit]

  • RFD-sense: A fictional city, the hometown of Batman. (Inserted later.) --Dan Polansky (talk) 18:19, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

I'd expected to find at least a couple of citations that could support a sense like "A crime-ridden fictional city where the Batman comics are set" by comparing a real crime-ridden city to the fictional one, but surprisingly, I can't find anything like that. Therefore, this seems to fail WT:FICTION. Smurrayinchester (talk) 17:46, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

Should this be an RFV? But given the choice, delete all such fancruft. Equinox 17:50, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Delete, Batman's home town is Gotham City anyway, not just Gotham. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 18:55, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
    • "When Gotham City is ashes, you have my permission to die"? I guess it fails WT:FICTION anyway, though we could move this to RFV to keep obnoxious bureaucrats our consciences silent... Keφr 17:33, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
Delete per nom. — Ungoliant (falai) 19:52, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
This might be citable.
  1. [6] I don't think she's saying New York City is like New York City. Esp. because of the Star Wars reference, I think she's comparing it to Gotham City..
  2. [7] Because of the crowds and police, I suspect he's comparing London to Gotham City. Bit ambiguous to me, though.
  3. [8] May not qualify, but not far off.
I'd suggest RFV. DAVilla 20:39, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
I can't see the quote at the third link you gave, but in the first I think she's saying the apartment felt like a log cabin in the middle of the big city and is using Gotham to mean NYC as the big, bad city. But I don't think she's thinking of Batman's Gotham City at all. The second quote might be referring to Batman's city, especially since the guy's name is Robin, but it could really equally well be referring to NYC. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 21:04, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

corgŵn[edit]

The plural of corgi in Welsh is corgwn without the circumflex i.e. not *corgŵn. You can look it up in the Welsh Academy Dictionary and the National Terminology Portal. It follows the pattern of other "dogs" e.g. helgwn "hounds", milgwn "greyhounds", dwrgwn "otters", morgwn "dogfish", celwyddgwn "liars" etc. Llusiduonbach (talk) 16:01, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

The Geiriadur Prifysgol Cymru has a cite for Cor’gŵn from 1630, so it may be worth keeping this as a {{nonstandard spelling of}} or {{obsolete spelling of}} or the like. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 14:47, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
What is our cutoff between Middle Welsh and Welsh? Renard Migrant (talk) 10:59, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

May 2014[edit]

-si[edit]

Discussion moved from User talk:Angr#-si.
Hello, yes i think so. « si » is not a suffixe, it's a grammatical nonsense. I have too baad english. I give the reasons to you in italian. La particella « si » non é un suffisso, è piuttosto un pronome enclitico, come le particelle pronominali atone mi, ti, ci, vi, lo, la, ne. Riferimenti : Si personale ; il verbo ; il pronome personale ; coniugazione pronominale o riflessiva. Italian pleasure is to acculate personnal pronoun. Just see dirmelo (tell me it) it's an enclise of pronoun mi and article lo and « melo » is not a suffixe. And you can find many exemples of this kind of word : dirglielo (dire+gli+lo), dircelo (dire+ci+lo), dirgliene (dire+gli+a+ne). It will be very difficult for good comprehension of italian if you don't integrate the special maner to use personnal pronoun. it's better way to say the enclise form on the article si. I hope i was clear in my explications. Best regards. -88.168.19.131 13:57, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
If it's a particle or a pronoun, not a suffix, the thing to do is to replace the line ===Suffix=== with ===Particle=== or ===Pronoun=== and {{head|it|suffix}} with {{head|it|particle}} or {{head|it|pronoun}}. But deleting the whole entry without putting the information somewhere else is simply destructive. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 14:04, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
Excuse me, I am taking part in your conversation, it is already very well explained in section Italian si (see part 3 « si passivante) ». You can actually remove the suffix -si which does not exist in Italian. It's only an enclitic form appears after the verb as explained in the article « si ».
When I get a chance, I'll start a deletion discussion for -si. It shouldn't be deleted without wider discussion. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 15:07, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Thank you to kc_kennylau for initiating this RFD. The OP's "yes i think so" is a response to the automatic edit summary of my revert here. I do think the anons make a good case that -si isn't a suffix but an enclitic pronoun and that the entry at si should be sufficient, but I do want to submit this to wider discussion rather than just deleting it tout court. I'd also like someone who knows Italian to look at the two entries and see if there's anything at -si that can usefully be merged to si before the former gets deleted (assuming it does). —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 17:18, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Keep, but convert the POS to pronoun and the definition to something like {{form of|enclitic form|si|lang=it}}. A hyphen before a term means the term is spelt without a space between itself and the preceding word, not necessarily that it is a suffix. — Ungoliant (falai) 17:44, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
Delete, and also -arsi, -ersi and -irsi. In fact, italian verb (e.g. : « dire ») is in a lexical domain and « dirsi » is in a fonctionnal domain. The lexical verbs are associated with a position for clitic pronouns (proclitic or enclitic). As described above, clitic constructions and especially clitic climbing is an essential part of italian grammar. It's an innovating nonsense to summarize this complexity in a false item -si. This type of article can only lead readers to be in the wrong and to confound with a suffix. — Elbarriak (talk) 16:16, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
Catalan has similar enclitic particles, but our entries for them are at the hyphenless forms. See se etc. —CodeCat 14:14, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
Delete. I'd be ok with what Ungoliant MMDCCLXIV says if it were only used in compounds, but it isn't. Renard Migrant (talk) 18:38, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

greenline[edit]

Sense of “To designate an area as suitable for profitable real-estate lending and property insurance” is redundant to “To ease access to services (such as banking, insurance, or healthcare) to residents in specific areas.” Purplebackpack89 (Notes Taken) (Locker) 20:48, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

The broader sense is unsupported, which is why it is RfVed. The new, narrower sense has three citations. If the broader sense is actually attestable, then of course it stays. The narrower sense is the original definition, going back at least to the 1960s. The extension to other services, if attestable at all, is certainly newer, which lexical information is most readily displayed using {{defdate}} with separate definitions. DCDuring TALK 21:51, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
The senses are essentially the same, therefore both senses can be supported by any of the citations provided. The only difference between the definitions is that the correct one (mine) is about residents GETTING stuff, while the incorrect one (yours) is about banks GIVING stuff. Purplebackpack89 (Notes Taken) (Locker) 22:49, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
Transitivity needs to be dealt with here. One sense suggests the verb applies to an area (which agrees with the citations) while the other suggests it applies to a service. Can you "greenline the banking in Ontario", or would it be "a bank that greenlines Ontario"? Equinox 22:54, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
First off, it would help if you said which was which. Secondly, I'm not seeing that. They both talk about areas and services Purplebackpack89 (Notes Taken) (Locker) 23:08, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
If you can't tell which is which, then you are proving my point that the transitivity needs to be specified! Equinox 00:53, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
  • One more thing: in this sense, the word "profitable" is not supported by the citations. What is supported is THAT more services are provided, not WHY they are Purplebackpack89 (Notes Taken) (Locker) 23:08, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
  • I think this is really a debate about how to word the definition, rather than about the existence of one or the other variant of the same thing. --WikiTiki89 23:10, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
    Yeah, DCDuring should never have added a second definition and should have started a discussion on the article's talk page about the definition rather than an RfV of a definition that was correct, but that he didn't like. But he didn't, so here we are. Purplebackpack89 (Notes Taken) (Locker) 23:27, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
    I'm not really interested in gum-flapping. I'm interested in citations, empirical support instead of verbosity. I usually descend to verbosity only as a last resort, usually when others fail to provide empirical support for their questionable positions. DCDuring TALK 00:21, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
    You have three citations that support either definition, there's no need to accuse me of gum-flapping. THIS isn't an RfV anyway, so citations schmitations. If more citiations are needed (again, the citations in there support either definition), I have at least a week to find them, during which I can do as much gum-flapping or whatever you call it as I want Purplebackpack89 (Notes Taken) (Locker) 00:33, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
    There is NO EMPIRICAL SUPPORT for the extension of meaning beyond real-estate loans and property insurance. You have admitted to only having a symmetry argument (from the antonym), which symmetry argument has no support in WT:CFI. I rest your case. DCDuring TALK 00:44, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
    Um, you don't get to rest my case. This is the request for deletion of YOUR definition, not the request for verification of MINE. It's embarrassing that you haven't made that distinction, nor frankly provided any argument why your definition should be kept. Tearing down my definition won't save your own. I again remind you that while citations might be preferable, I don't have to cite it this very minute. Purplebackpack89 (Notes Taken) (Locker) 00:52, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
    I was (foolishly) responding to your off-topic objection to my decision not to use Talk:greenline as a venue. That was the case previously rested.
    The second definition is not redundant to the first as it has a materially narrower scope, as mentioned above. No other reason for deletion has been presented. I hereby rest your RfD case. DCDuring TALK 01:23, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
    You don't get to arbitralily decide that a deletion discussion of a definition you wrote it over, sorry. That's not how it works. Editors other than I have questioned your decision to do things in the manner in which you did, and you really have yet to offer a reasonable explanation for that as well. So we're going to keep talking. Purplebackpack89 (Notes Taken) (Locker) 18:29, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
    @Purplebackpack89, It didn't help that you duplicated the discussion here at RFD (when it could have been resolved at RFV), and then blamed DCDuring when he made a comment on one page rather than the other. --WikiTiki89 22:51, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

jedynka[edit]

Sense: "a tram or bus number 1". Actually, you could refer in this way to television or radio stations, highways, rooms, seats, people even (google:"jedynka na liście"). Anything with a number designation can be referred to with a noun naming the number (or just the numeral, if you are careless enough). An alternative would be to broaden the sense to include this metonymic usage, but is it worth it? Compare Talk:A cup. Keφr 20:12, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

I agree that this does not seem to be an instance of metonymy that merits a sense. Further I don't think a general metonymic sense should be included for every number, letter, color, etc in every language. OTOH. I wish I had something other than my intuition to rely on to discriminate inclusion-worthy metonymy from exclusion-worthy metonymy. DCDuring TALK 16:11, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
I would rephrase and fix the definition to have a broader noun sense (derived from the numeral - "by extension") but keep. No other sense seems to cover this. I didn't give it a lot of thought, though. Thinking fivesome - piątka, pięcioro? In Russian too, when someone says - сади́сь на едини́цу (sadísʹ na jedinícu), not sure if it's obvious to a learner that they mean "take number one (tram, bus, etc.)". --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 07:27, 13 May 2014 (UTC)
How about a usage note? Keφr 07:45, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
I think the best way is to keep the sense "number one" (expanded). It may cover some other cases, not transportation. I have also added this sense to едини́ца (jediníca), pls take a look. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 22:51, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
Keep the sense 'a tram or bus no. "1"' of a Polish entry, but probably make it broader; no other sense currently in the entry does the job. --Dan Polansky (talk) 15:10, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

subito accelerando[edit]

SOP. We already have appropriate English-language entries for both subito and accelerando; musical terms like this can be combined freely (subito piano, subito fortissimo, subito presto, etc.) and it is unnecessary to list them all. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 13:51, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

  • Delete per nom, transparent combination. bd2412 T 17:22, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

mahā[edit]

I would like to request the restoration, in some form, of mahā, the transliteration of the Sanskrit महा (great). In the course of fixing disambiguation links to this title on Wikipedia, I have found many uses of mahā with this meaning. It is similarly widely used in books. However, searching for it here takes the reader to maha, which has no information on the Sanskrit meaning of the word. Cheers! bd2412 T 17:54, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

We don't do Sanskrit romanised forms. If you want to find a term using this transliteration - 1. paste/type it in the search window and linger to see suggestions, 2. select containing mahā from the bottom and click enter/double-click. A Search results page will appear 3. "Search in namespaces:" check "None" first, then check (Main). This will shorten your search to the main namespace and click "Search". again. महत् appears the 4th in the results. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 02:08, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
I don't think that sort of advice is going to reach the average reader, who is more likely to either type maha into the window, or to type/paste in mahā and hit enter, which will take them to maha. I'm not sure why we wouldn't "do" this unusually well attested romanization. If someone sees this word in English text, they should be able to find it defined here. bd2412 T 02:55, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
(E/C)I was just giving you a technical advice how to reach the entry currently, since searching in Wiktionary and search results keep changing. There's no policy on romanised Sanskrit, AFAIK, even if romanisations are attested, they are not in the native script. E.g. ghar is an attestable transliteration of Hindi घर but we only have घर (there's Irish but no Hindi), yeoksa is an attestable transliteration of Korean 역사 but we only have 역사. I'm just stating the fact, so if mahā is created, any admin may delete it on sight. The policies can be created and changed, though. There are romanisations for some languages with complex scripts. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 03:19, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
We could add matching transliterations to the {{also}} templates. As for whether this entry should be restored, WT:About Sanskrit#Transliterated entries bans transliteration entries, so I oppose unless the Sanskrit editing community decides to change that. — Ungoliant (falai) 03:18, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
The use of {{also}}, as now at maha, seems like a decent idea that respects our prejudices and yet offers the more persistent users at least a way of finding native script entries that provide a useful definition for the transliteration they may have come across, the Wiktionary definition for which they may not find by direct search. DCDuring TALK 03:40, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
I personally have no objections to redirects. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 03:47, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
A redirect from mahā to महा would be fine with me, so long as there are no other meanings of mahā. bd2412 T 12:17, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
I think we should reconsider permitting Latin-alphabet entries for Sanskrit, even if all they say is "Romanization of महा". We already allow Latin-alphabet entries for Pali, Gothic, and some other ancient languages that are usually encountered in Romanization in modern editions. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 12:27, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
Is it used as a word in any language? Renard Migrant (talk) 18:24, 27 May 2014 (UTC)
According to Google Books, it appears in about 150,000 books. bd2412 T 22:43, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
If it's used as an English word or any other language, it may get an English or other entry. For romanised Sanskrit, I'm afraid it's a policy question, you'll have to start a separate discussion or a vote. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 22:53, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
Alternative form of maha (four) in Tahitian. — Ungoliant (falai) 00:01, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
I would like to see a discussion or policy that says that romanizations of Sanskrit are disallowed. Until then, I consider the above statement "We don't do Sanskrit romanised forms" unsubstantiated. In fact, Wiktionary:Votes/pl-2011-08/Romanization of languages in ancient scripts resulted in 7:4 for the proposal that "If an ancient, no longer living language was written in a script that is now no longer used or widely understood, and it was not represented in another script that still is used or widely understood, then romanizations of its words will be allowed entries." (I wrote 7:4 rather than 8:4, since Ruakh only supported for Gothic.). A subsequent vote Wiktionary:Votes/pl-2011-09/Romanization of languages in ancient scripts 2 unanimously expressly allowed romanizations for Etruscan, Gothic, Lydian, Oscan, and Phoenician.
I found Wiktionary:Beer_parlour/2013/August#Sanskrit_in_Latin_script?. There, couple of people support allowing Sanskrit romanizations, including Ivan Štambuk (apparently), Angr, Dan Polansky (me), and Eiríkr Útlendi, where Ivan reported User:Dbachmann to support including Sanskrit romanizations as well; opposition seems to include Liliana; Chuck Entz is unclear. --Dan Polansky (talk) 09:33, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
I don't know much about Sanskrit, but I do know that there are tens of thousands of books that use the mahā (in that script) to signify a specific word with a specific meaning. I'm not about to suggest that we incorporate the whole transliterated Sanskrit corpus, but it seems absurd to refuse to have a definition for a word used as widely as this one. bd2412 T 15:14, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
I think we should continue to have a consistent (uniform) policy towards romanized Sanskrit. At the moment, that policy is to exclude it. I wouldn't mind reversing that policy and allowing romanized Sanskrit to be entered similarly to romanized Gothic or pinyin Chinese, and the preceding comments suggest that enough other people feel the same way that we should probably have a vote.
Allowing some romanized of Sanskrit words and not others according to some arbitrary threshold such as "n Wiktionary users think this word is important" or "[we think] this word is used in x books (where x is some very high number, like 10 000)" does not strike me as a workable state of affairs. Google Books' raw book counts are unreliable, as are its attempts to restrict searching to particular languages, so although we might decide to include only romanizations used in e.g. more than 10 000 books, we have no easy way of ascertaining whether or not a romanization actually meets that threshold.
Even if we continue to exclude romanized Sanskrit, it might be possible to cite mahā as a loanword in some language, if it is really as common as has been suggested. - -sche (discuss) 17:11, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
What evidence supports the hypothesis that the current policy is to exclude romanized Sanskrit? Or, put differently, what makes you think and say that the policy is to exclude it? --Dan Polansky (talk) 20:12, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
See WT:ASA. — Ungoliant (falai) 20:16, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
Wiktionary:About Sanskrit is not a policy; it is a policy draft. Furthermore, this is not evidence; a discussion or a vote is evidence of policy. The draft says "Entries written in IAST transliterations shall not appear in the main namespace." which was added in diff. The first edit I can find to that effect is diff, before which the page said "If entries are made under the IAST orthographic transliteration, they should use the standard template {{temp|romanization of}} to reference the Devanagari entry." Since none of the diffs refer to a discussion or a vote, they are illegitimate as means of policy making. --Dan Polansky (talk) 20:31, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
Draft or not, excluding transliterated Sanskrit is the common practice. Start a discussion if you want to change that, or continue refusing to believe it, I don’t care. — Ungoliant (falai) 21:48, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
I asked "What evidence ...". If you had no answer to that question, you did not need to answer; the question was directed to -sche anyway. --Dan Polansky (talk) 05:42, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
If you really want evidence, look for RFD archives of romanised Sanskrit entries. I’m familiar with your strategy of asking people to waste their time looking for this or that and then finding some excuse for why what they found is not valid or outright ignoring it. I’m going to act like CodeCat and not waste my time; as I said, you can continue refusing to believe it. — Ungoliant (falai) 10:32, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
Putting aside the outcomes of previous discussions, what is the reason for not having entries for such things? We are talking about a well-attested word that readers may well look to us to define. bd2412 T 16:21, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
I think the logic is that, insofar as we hold that Sanskrit is not written in the Latin script, mahā is not a Sanskrit word. Compare: insofar as Russian is not written in the Latin script, soyuz is not a Russian word. And mahā (great) and soyuz (union) have not been shown to be English words, or German/Chinese/etc words. If mahā is not a word in any language, it is both outside our stated scope ("all words in all languages") and not technically includable anyway : what L2 would it use?
In contrast, महा (mahā) is a Sanskrit word, and is included, and союз#Russian is included.
That said, we have made exceptions for some languages, e.g. Japanese and Gothic, and we have said in effect "even though this language is not natively written in the Latin script, we will allow soft-redirects from the Latin script to the native script for all the words in this language which we include." (Note this is very different from your statement of "I'm not about to suggest that we incorporate the whole transliterated Sanskrit corpus, but [... only] a word used as widely as this one.") I think one could make a strong case that we should make a Gothic-style exception for Sanskrit, since Sanskrit, like Gothic (and unlike Russian), is very often discussed/mentioned (whether or not it is used) in the Latin script. - -sche (discuss) 20:17, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
Even if we admit that "mahā is not a Sanskrit word" (and that is rather questionable since it seems to confuse words with their writen forms), it still does not follow that we have a policy that forbids having Sanskrit romanization soft-redirect entries in the mainspace, on the model of Japanese, Chinese and other romanizations (Category:Japanese romaji, Category:Mandarin pinyin). We have had Japanese romanizations for a long time (dentaku was created on 17 August 2005‎), full will definitions or translations, since no rogue oligarch bothered or dared to eradicate them (we still have them, albeit in reduced form). Whether we have a policy could be quite important in a possible upcoming vote about Sanskrit romanization, since it is not really clear what the status quo is. Therefore, it is rather important to avoid misrepresentations (unintentional or otherwise) about there being or not being a policy. As for the amount of Sanskrit romanization in the mainspace, there may well be none, which would be a fairly good sign for there being a common practice of avoiding Sanskrit romanizations, but one has to consider that this could be a result of rogue olicharch actions. Generally speaking, I find it hard to find a reason for having Japanese and Chinese romanizations while avoiding Sanskrit romanizations. --Dan Polansky (talk) 08:25, 3 June 2014 (UTC)
@Ungoliant MMDCCLXIV: Re: "I’m familiar with your strategy of asking people to waste their time looking for this or that ...": Not really. You would be familiar with my strategy of asking people to source their claims, supply evidence, clarify the manner in which they use ambiguous terms or explain themselves. Since you already know this strategy (as you say), since you don't like it, and since the question was not directed at you, you should have spared yourself the trouble and avoid answering the question (about evidence for there being policy as opposed to common practice or a draft page that anyone can edit regardless of consensus) that you did not intend to really answer anyway. --Dan Polansky (talk) 07:51, 3 June 2014 (UTC)
I did intend to answer. Not for your benefit, but for that of others who may otherwise be fooled by you into thinking that adding romanised Sanskrit is totally OK. — Ungoliant (falai) 13:00, 3 June 2014 (UTC)
I still see no rationale for excluding a widely used romanization that readers are likely to come across and want defined. Some justification beyond the naked assertion of policy or the momentum of past exclusions. bd2412 T 14:01, 3 June 2014 (UTC)
AFAICS, adding romanised Sanskrit is totally OK; there is no discussion or vote the outcome of which is that Sanskrit romanizations shall be excluded from the mainspace. --Dan Polansky (talk) 15:02, 3 June 2014 (UTC)
@BD, re "I still see no rationale": I just explained one rationale (mahā is not a word in any language).
The previous BP discussion linked-to above, and comments in this discussion by people who didn't participate in the previous discussion, suggest that a proposal to allow romanizations of all Sanskrit words would pass. I myself could support such a proposal. I suggest, for the third time, that someone make that proposal.
I do not see any indication that the proposal to allow "widely used romanization[s]" only has gained traction with anyone beyond you and possibly Dan. As you note, quite a lot of momentum is against you: AFAIK, there has never been a language for which we allowed romanizations for only some words according to some threshold of exceptional commonness. AFAIK, there has never even been an alphabetic or abugidic language for which we allowed romanizations for only some words according to the threshold of any citations at all. (If you discovered that one of our Gothic romanizations had 0 attestations at Google Books, Groups, etc, we'd still keep it as long as it was derived from an attested native-script form according to the rules of Wiktionary:Gothic transliteration.)
You could keep trying to overturn this momentum, but — especially given that the only people who still seem to be participating in this discussion are you, me, Ungoliant, and Dan, and we don't seem to be changing each others' minds — I think it would be more productive to grasp the support for allowing all romanized Sanskrit, and run with it. - -sche (discuss) 17:58, 3 June 2014 (UTC)
We generally decide whether any unbroken string of letters is "a word" by looking to see if it is used in print to convey a consistent meaning. We do this because the existence of the word in print is what makes it likely that a reader will come across it and want to know how it is defined, or possibly how it is pronounced, derived, or translated into other languages. There are now a half dozen citations of mahā at Citations:mahā, including several where the word is used in English running text without italicization. In some previous discussions we have used the compromise position of declaring the word to be English, but derived from the language of its original script. I think this is absurd. Is tovarich English, really? bd2412 T 18:33, 3 June 2014 (UTC)
I have posted this at the Beer Parlour. bd2412 T 19:04, 3 June 2014 (UTC)
Yes tovarich is indeed English if it's used in running English text as an English word (for which a citation is provided). Same with mahā - the word originates from Sanskrit but it's not a Sanskrit word in the context of provided citations - it's an English word now because it's used in English. --09:57, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Keep mahā as an IAST transliteration of the Sanskrit महा. (To make my stance clear to a prospective closing admin; my reasoning is above.] --Dan Polansky (talk) 08:46, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

stf-[edit]

This covers both the prefix and its category:

I added this based on a dictionary but two other users have pointed out that this isn't really a prefix and words derived from stf should be described as blends rather a prefix + X combination. This makes sense, so these two should probably be deleted. - AdamBMorgan (talk) 11:07, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

We are actually arguing with the mighty OUP by calling this not a prefix, since they call it one in their Brave New Words (admittedly a populist spin-off and not quite the OED). But I still feel it's too narrow and specialised to be really prefix-like. Probably delete. But thanks Adam for adding the various related words, which seem quite attestable in fandom. Equinox 19:55, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
Delete. The examples in the entry don't even use this prefix: stfandom is st- + fandom, not stf- + *andom. - -sche (discuss) 17:09, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

Deleted. bd2412 T 17:39, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

nadgorliwość jest gorsza od faszyzmu[edit]

This is defined as a Polish proverb, but does not seem to be one. google books:"nadgorliwość jest gorsza od faszyzmu" finds only 6 hits, in only 4 of which the phrase is actually shown by Google. To be a proverb, a phrase must have many more durably archived hits, I believe. --Dan Polansky (talk) 20:10, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

Plus they they took a concise, direct phrase and gave it a rambling, vague heap of verbiage instead of a definition. Chuck Entz (talk) 07:26, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
Keep. There is no exceptional criterion for proverbs, and the variant nadgorliwość gorsza od faszyzmu is listed in at least one published glossary of proverbs. — Ungoliant (falai) 04:31, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
If it cannot be demonstrated to be a proverb, then this is simply a sum of parts sentence. The published glossary is this, right? The typesetting looks extremely cheep, so it is as "published" as any random web page, and its being "published" in this way does not matter at all. --Dan Polansky (talk) 08:00, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
Keep - this expression is quite common. It's not exactly a proverb, more like a catchphrase, so I'm not surprised it's not present in published collections of proverbs. --Tweenk (talk) 08:51, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

June 2014[edit]

lado bom[edit]

Lado (side: one possible aspect of a concept, person or thing) + bom (good).

Many SOPs can be and are formed with this sense of lado: lado bom (good side), lado ruim (bad side), lado mau (bad/evil side), lado divertido (fun side), lado chato (boring side), lado difícil (difficult side), lado fácil (easy side), etc. — Ungoliant (falai) 20:08, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

Delete, or maybe redirect to lado. Seems straightforward. --Æ&Œ (talk) 21:55, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

foder-se para[edit]

The term demands the adverb pouco otherwise has (assumes) a literal meaning "screw yourself by" (to get, or, in name of something or someone) --Tchirruá (talk) 22:33, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

Keep. Usually true, but it is occasionally used without pouco. — Ungoliant (falai) 22:21, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
@Tchirruá: On the other hand, I’ve never seen it not used in the progressive aspect, so maybe it should be moved to estar se fodendo para. What do you think? — Ungoliant (falai) 12:55, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

tvær vikur[edit]

Nominating jointly with...

fjórtán dagar[edit]

These are "two weeks" and "fourteen days" respectively. SOP per #vierzehn Tage above. I've held off on nominating hálfur mánuður ("half month") since it's not clear whether it literally means "half a month", or if it always idiomatically means a fortnight regardless of the length of the month. Any Icelandic speakers able to clarify? Smurrayinchester (talk) 10:59, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Just to make it more fun, bear in mind that there are non-Western calendars (e.g. Hebrew and Hijri) which also have "months", and their lengths are more variable. Equinox 17:00, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
  • I'm not sure there's an Icelandic word for fortnight, and I don't think there is in Norwegian (fjorten dager, to uker in Bokmål), Danish (fjorten dage, to uger) and Swedish (fjorton dagar, två veckor) either. For that reason it may be a good idea to keep these Icelandic phrases. Donnanz (talk) 17:29, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
  • Delete both. The absence of an Icelandic word for fortnight is no reason to violate our own CFI. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 21:22, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
Delete. Unidiomatic sums of parts by their etymology sections’ own admittance. — Ungoliant (falai) 21:23, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
  • Keep, as probably the best Icelandic translations of fortnight. Both entries were created in 2007 by User:BiT, who is a native Icelandic speaker. I often wonder how these sorts of nominations are supposed to improve the dictionary. --Dan Polansky (talk) 07:37, 14 June 2014 (UTC)
  • I have just come across a Nynorsk word "fjortendagar", which is rather interesting. “fjortendagar” in The Nynorsk Dictionary. Donnanz (talk) 10:44, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
Delete both. Just because English has the word fortnight doesn't mean that all languages that don't have such a word need to have entries for "two weeks" or "fourteen days". --WikiTiki89 10:53, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
  • It does seem that fjortendagar is attestable, which would invoke WT:COALMINE if they were in the same language. However, I do not read either Nynorsk or Icelandic, so I don't know offhand what language these cites are in.[9], [10], [11], [12], [13]. bd2412 T 13:53, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

wyjść po angielsku[edit]

wyjście po angielsku[edit]

The minimal idiomatic part is po angielsku (which I now added; improvements to the definition are welcome), because the verb may be replaced with any synonym, like zniknąć, ulotnić się, czmychnąć without any loss of meaning, making this term SOP. (Alternatively, one might consider synonym substitutions as alternative forms of this term, but I think it is not feasible to do so.) Keφr 20:37, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Delete both. Since there hasn't been any objections, can the entries can be deleted? --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 05:19, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
I have no problems with redirects. "Wyjść po angielsku" <> "French leave" but = "to take a French leave", where the idiomatic part is "po angielsku" with various verb combinations, with "wyjść" being the most common one. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 01:06, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

July 2014[edit]

ageless sleep[edit]

Misinterpretation of SOP expressions in poetry by an IP better known for adding bad content to Japanese entries and to entries on magic and deities. Chuck Entz (talk) 20:50, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

No idea. Renard Migrant (talk) 09:23, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
Keep and RfV. It might just be a less-used euphemism for death. DCDuring TALK 15:51, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

eternal sleep[edit]

Same as previous, but also merely a copy of it- even to the point of using the same quote, which doesn't include the entry title. Chuck Entz (talk) 20:56, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

Delete. The sleep is either actual sleep, or a trivial metaphor. The magical cause or mechanism can vary from one story to another. "A magical state of suspended animation" is being too specific. Equinox 10:59, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
No idea. Renard Migrant (talk) 10:25, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
Delete if the creator tries to define a magical sleep. But isn’t it rather a common euphemism of death? — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 15:46, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
Keep A euphemism for death, of uncertain scope of usage beyond Christianity. DCDuring TALK 15:52, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
sleep could easily be defined as ‘death,’ and saying ‘eternal death’ strikes me as redundant. --Æ&Œ (talk) 21:51, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

canine distemper virus[edit]

the viral agent that causes canine distemper. Renard Migrant (talk) 10:25, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

That is not the complete meaning of the term, it is its etymology. As with many vernacular names for organisms, it corresponds to a particular proper noun in taxonomy. It has a generally accepted abbreviation that is in fairly common, though specialized use. It is probably lexical only in the context of veterinary pathology, but we have many, many thousands of entries that have an SoP meaning that is close to and the source of a meaning that is not SoP in a specialized, often technical context. DCDuring TALK 11:28, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
Furthermore, this virus name is retained, at least tentatively, when it is found in other mammals (lions, ferrets, raccoons, stoats, etc), though the illness is not called canine distemper. DCDuring TALK 11:44, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
I think the entry should be moved to Canine distemper virus#Translingual, following the International Committee on Taxonomy of Virusess orthography. DCDuring TALK 18:37, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
I'm very sceptical that the term is translingual. google books:"canine distemper virus" cette, for example, turns up exactly one hit of the term used in French. That search does turn up enough hits of the term used in English to refer to the virus in hamsters and other animals to suggest that you're right that the virus is still called "canine distemper virus" even when it's found in non-canids, but I'm not sure that lends it any idiomaticity, since it's still "the virus that causes canine distemper". (Compare: many "red cars" have silver hubcaps, black or beige or grey seats, etc; their failure to be entirely red does not make "red car" idiomatic.) The point that this is the specific common name for a particular taxonomically identifiable virus is more suggestive of idiomaticity, IMO. - -sche (discuss) 19:23, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
This or the capitalized, ICTV form is a no-brainer as to idiomaticity. It is part of a nomenclature system. Virus naming often adopts English customary names as the formal names of species. As to use in French see this Google Scholar search and German see this one. The yield of valid cites is not too high, so patience or an RfV is required to get definite results. DCDuring TALK 20:47, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
See also [[talk:tobacco mosaic virus]].​—msh210 (talk) 05:23, 24 July 2014 (UTC)


共同通訊社 & 共同通讯社 (Chinese) and 共同通信社 (Japanese)[edit]

Seems sum of parts, and not dictionary material. ---> Tooironic (talk) 06:08, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

  • The Japanese is a proper noun, and thus not SOP. However, whether that proper noun merits an entry, I am uncertain. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 18:30, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
  • I'm sorry but I don't quite understand your logic. Both the Chinese and Japanese are proper nouns, the Chinese is merely a translation of the original Japanese. Xinhua News Agency, France 24 and China Radio International are also proper nouns, and of a similar type, but we don't have entries them - nor should we, arguably, since that's the job of an encyclopedia not a dictionary. Then again we do have British Broadcasting Corporation, but that hasn't been through a deletion request (yet). ---> Tooironic (talk) 09:59, 11 July 2014 (UTC)
  • I'm inclined to keep 共同通信社. It might appear as if a sum of parts that means a certain type of news agencies ("通信社") that are based on joint ("共同") membership or something, while it actually is the name of a particular agency. The possible misinterpretation would motivate us to have an entry for 共同通信社 to explain that it can only be a proper noun in Japanese. Whether to have Xinhua News Agency mentioned above is a different matter, because that term would be unlikely to be mistaken as a general term. I don't have a particular opinion on the other two Chinese entries listed. Whym (talk) 04:48, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
Your initial comment was seems sum of parts, which 共同通信社 demonstrably isn't, as much as it might look like one. That's what I was responding to in the first sentence of my post above. Your second comment, [seems to be] not dictionary material, was what I was responding to in the second sentence of my post above. Does that help make my logic any clearer? (Serious question, no snark intended at all.) Note that my previous post doesn't actually evince any position on whether 共同通信社 merits an entry.
FWIW, looking at this issue again, I lean towards Whym's opinion, in that 共同通信社 does indeed look like it might just be any old 通信社 (tsūshinsha, news agency) that happens to be 共同 (kyōdō, joint or collaborative) in some way -- i.e., it does look like an SOP phrase. However, this term really isn't just an SOP phrase, it's the name of a specific news agency, so perhaps an entry is merited to make that clear: users could conceivably come here looking for this as a term to find in a dictionary. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 22:38, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

gakko and gakkou[edit]

Discussion moved from WT:RFV.
Haplology (talkcontribs) put a note in the two pages asking if we have "to include alternative transcriptions", and I am therefore putting the two pages here for that matter. --kc_kennylau (talk) 11:53, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
Arrowred.png Personally, I must say that romanizing 学校 as gakko instead of ​gakkō is a bit like spelling apple as aple, or ate as at -- it's a misspelling that omits important phonetic information, potentially resulting in a different word altogether. I don't think we have any business including "alternative transcriptions" as a matter of normal policy.
  • [[gakko]] is also a valid romanization of other Japanese words: 楽戸 (gakko, in the Nara period, a kind of private-sector school or house of 雅楽 (gagaku, court music) unaffiliated directly with the official court gagaku office); 合期 (gakko, meeting a deadline; turning out as expected or hoped for, also read as gōgo). As such, I'd be much more tempted to deep-six the "alternative transcription" content and turn that page into a regular romanization entry.
  • [[gakkou]] isn't a valid romanization of any Japanese word (using our modified Hepburn scheme), so my sense would be to delete this altogether. Alternately, if other folks feel this might still be useful to incoming users, at least rework it entirely so it's clearly marked as a misspelling, and so it's not showing up in the index of Japanese nouns. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 22:22, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
This is really an RFD matter... delete both (replacing the first one with the valid content Eirikr mentions). - -sche (discuss) 22:27, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
  • Just think, if Wiktionary:Votes/pl-2014-06/Allowing attested romanizations passes, we'll end up restoring gakkou just a wek from now. :b - -sche (discuss) 16:35, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
    I don't know what you are talking about. Where do you see any attesting quotations of "gakkou" in use to convey meaning? Enjoying setting up straw men much? "gakkou" was sent to RFV, no attesting quotations were provided for the form, so it was deleted, right? --Dan Polansky (talk) 16:46, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
    google books:gakkou has loads of instances of the string gakkou. I argue they're not "uses" of a "word" to "convey meaning", and it seems no-one disagrees with my view, since no-one cited any of those citations when the term was at RFV. Nonetheless, those citations are identical in form to citations which the main proponent of allowing romanizations (BD) has argued are "words used to convey meaning", hence I presume that if the vote to allow romanizations passes, he'll support including gakkou. - -sche (discuss) 17:37, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
    • @-sche: It bears noting that at least some of those hits are likely bogus, like the top title on this page of hits: The Phonology of Hungarian.  :)
    That aside, there have been occasional conversations among us JA editors about what to do with spellings that don't fit the modified Hepburn scheme in use here at EN WT. So far, the general consensus (at least, as I've understood it) has been to remove such entries. The use of ou or uu instead of the macron versions ō and ū is very common online and even in some academia, in part due to the difficulties of inputting macrons using US keyboards. (For those interested, this is sometimes called wāpuro rōmaji or “word-processor romanization”.) Given that we already have a standard for romanized Japanese entries, and given that we already have romanizations for a high percentage of our JA entries (and even the JavaScript tools in place to accelerate their creation), I don't think BD's arguments in favor of including romanizations have much immediate bearing on Japanese -- we're already doing that.  :)
    If folks wish to expand that discussion to include the issues of alternate spellings and what to do with those, I'm happy to engage in that conversation, and if such alternates are deemed entry-worthy, it would be very easy to (re)create the [[gakkou]] entry as a similar {{ja-romanization of}} redirection. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 22:51, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

metaphorical extension[edit]

Listed on RFC. But not convinced it's really a set term. Ƿidsiþ 14:40, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

  • Delete. Seems like an encyclopedic and otherwise transparent combination. bd2412 T 20:41, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
Delete. I think that we can all figure out what this is. --Æ&Œ (talk) 21:39, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Keep. I don't think the current definitions are obvious from metaphorical and extension. But the definitions may be incorrect. It is hard to figure out what to do with this entry without first collecting attesting quotations, I think. --Dan Polansky (talk) 08:13, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

fat as a cow[edit]

fat as a pig[edit]

These are really not idioms but simple comparisons of which you could construct potentially infinite examples of, just by taking any exceptionally large object. -- Liliana 23:28, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

You could replace them with just about any other animal but these two are by far infinitely more common, almost set phrases. No one ever says you're as fat as a rhinoceros...a whale ( when water or the beach is in context) yes, and cow and pig. Leasnam (talk) 23:35, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
Undecided for the moment but there are other, very similar expressions with comparisons, which probably passed RFD or RFV. Is it an RFV case, rather than RFD? I think there is a limited number of animals/things you compare a fat person with. Slavs (at least some Slavic languages) use pigs (male or female varieties) but commonly barrels, e.g. Russian: "толстый как бочка", Polish: "gruby jak beczka". --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 23:39, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
Here are a few from a 1917 dictionary of similes:
  • Fat as a bacon-pig at Martlemas. — Anon.
  • Fat as brawn. — Ibid.
  • Fat as a sheep's tail. — Ibid.
  • A red bag, fat with your unpaid bills, like a landing net. — Dion Boucicault.
  • Fat as Mother Nab. — Samuel Butler.
  • Fat as a whale. — Chaucer.
  • Fat as a barn-door fowl. — Congreve.
  • Fat as seals. — Charles Hallock.
  • Fatte as a foole. — Lyly.
  • As fat as a distillery pig. — Scottish Proverb.
  • As fat as a Miller's horse. — Ibid.
  • Fat as butter. — Shakespeare.
  • Fat as tame things. — Ibid.
  • Fat and fulsome to mine ear
As howling after music. — Ibid.
  • Fat as grease. — Old Testament.
Some would quite likely be from well-known works and therefore would thereby pass RfV without regard to whether they were otherwise common. DCDuring TALK 03:05, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
So, what's your vote on this? Having a variety of similes is not a reason to discard them. Some of the above would be includable, IMO. They are quite useful for language learners, especially the common ones but I'll wait for other opinions. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 03:20, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
Your criterion favoring "common" but not merely attestable similes has nothing to do with WT:CFI. It seems like a BP matter, possibly even a vote. There are lots of amusing similes (happy as Larry, happy as a clam at high tide, happy as a pig in shit) that are common among some groups during some periods. Some of them seem arbitrary (eg "Larry") and thereby possibly idiomatic, others seem to make a great deal of sense, ie, be transparent. But as our coverage is supposed to span a time periods for which we cannot rely on unaided intuition, I think we would need to be able to apply our standard rules of attestation and non-transparency to similes.
Thus I would be happier with happy as Larry than with fat as a pig as an entry. Cassell's Dictionary of Slang (2005) agrees with my inclusion instincts and criteria. DCDuring TALK 04:28, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
Yes, I favour common over temporary expressions. "Happy as Larry" is not very useful for language learners, almost like an in-joke. My mother-in-law liked to say a rhyme здоро́в как Труно́в (zdoróv kak Trunóv) "healthy as Trunov" (referring to a long-time mayor of a city named Trunov who I never knew, implying he's healthy because he is a mayor, probably very corrupt, so he has money to look after himself). It was fun to say this in the family but if I said this to another Russian, they wouldn't have a clue what I'm talking about. Is [[sly as a fox]] idiomatic enough? --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 04:43, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
fat as a pig at OneLook Dictionary Search, as fat as a pig at OneLook Dictionary Search, fat as a cow at OneLook Dictionary Search, as fat as a cow at OneLook Dictionary Search
It's just us and McGraw-Hill's Dictionary of American Idioms and Phrasal Verbs. I'd think we'd be doing language learners a better service if we bothered to translate the entries in Category:English phrasal verbs, but naybe they are too hard. DCDuring TALK 10:21, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Delete both, unless it is shown that they are needed solely as a translation target for an idiom that is uniquely meaningful in some other language (which I doubt). Metaphors are cheaply transparent, unless the asserted comparison does not automatically assume the characteristics of the operative adjective (e.g. fit as a fiddle). bd2412 T 12:58, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Keep similes, or at least high-frequency similes, even if transparent, since they are useful for the encoding direction ("How do I say 'very fat' using a simile?"), and for simile-to-simile translation ("How do I render 'fat as a pig' using a Spanish simile?"). As for the examples listed by DCDuring, I wonder whether they are attested in use to convey meaning; for instance, google books:"Fat as a bacon-pig at Martlemas" does not suggest as much. --Dan Polansky (talk) 16:41, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Delete as obvious SOP. I suggest common similes of this sort be listed in a usage note sub the adjective (or adverb as the case may be, in this case fat, e.g. "Common exemplars for flat, used in similes, are a board (emphasizing lack of protrusions) and a pancake (emphasizing thinness)") and/or in an appendix devoted to such similes.​—msh210 (talk) 19:18, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
    What is the advantage of listing these in usage notes rather than in separate entries, which can be linked to separate translations, which will not necessarily be word-for-word translations? Per fat as a cow, Italian and Polish would be like fat as a barrel. --Dan Polansky (talk) 19:58, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
    I've never heard "happy as Larry" and I would vouch for "happy as a pig in mud" (but not "shit", never heard that before either). Keep. Its a set phrase comparison that has some members (like pig, though not all pigs are fat necessarkly) more transparent than others ( like whale). Comparable to "as hungry as a horse" & "as big as a house" (oh yeah? my house is tiny.) Leasnam (talk) 02:49, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
    Why are we supposed to care whether any individual has not heard of a given expression? DCDuring TALK 05:09, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
You don't. And did I don't see where anyone has asked anyone to. Its an indicator of how common a word or phrase is Leasnam (talk) 11:12, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
Delete per all (Dan Polansky). Renard Migrant (talk) 15:03, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

Deleted. bd2412 T 15:54, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

I'll express my frustration at these successful attempts to remove valid lexicographical content. Before the deletion of fat as a pig, we told our readers how to say this in multiple languages using a simile; now this is gone. A real substantive rationale for this deletion is absent; the only rationale that I see is reduction to rules. People keep on repeating "sum of parts" as if this were a monolingual dictionary. I find the above DCDuring's list of mostly unattested similes particularly disingenuous and objectionable; not only are most of these items unattested but the argument they are used for contradicts WT:CFI#Attestation vs. the slippery slope; as for "Some would quite likely be from well-known works", we now have WT:CFI without the well-known work criterion, via Wiktionary:Votes/pl-2014-03/CFI: Removing usage in a well-known work 3. Also, the nomination is blatantly wrong ("... just by taking any exceptionally large object"); try google:"fat as a mammoth" or google:"fat as a Jupiter". --Dan Polansky (talk) 09:41, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
Restore and keep fat as a pig. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 23:54, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
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  • I have restored fat as a pig as requested, for further discussion; additional participation would be helpful at this point. bd2412 T 13:33, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
Delete fat as a pig. We already define pig as a corpulent person, so this is redundant. Might be an O.K. redirection, though. --Æ&Œ (talk) 21:37, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
The existence of "pig" as a fat person does not suffice for the conclusion that people actually say "fat as a pig"; lardo means a fat person, but people do not say "fat as a lardo", as per google:"fat as a lardo". Furthermore, you have conventiently disregarded the added-value argument: the entry hosts multiple translations to other languages that cannot be obtained by word-for-word translations, e.g. Polish "gruby jak beczka". --Dan Polansky (talk) 08:00, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
‘Lardo’ seems uncommon to begin with. Google Books reveals many false positives. Many words like 当兵 have definitions that are clearly sum‐of‐parts, but we don’t need to create entries for those particular definitions. Though I will admit that you made me somewhat less certain for the time being. —Æ&Œ (talk) 08:35, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

arfer dda[edit]

Completely SOP; simply arfer (practice, procedure) + dda (good). BigDom 08:43, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Jacob Marley[edit]

"A fictional man" etc. We have a lot of characters from this particular work, for some reason (!): see Category:en:A Christmas Carol. This underwent RFV before and some citations were given. I think them inadequate since they do not show any generic use. I propose deletion because book characters, aside from generic use, are not suitable dictionary content IMO. Equinox 21:57, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Probably all the characters except Scrooge can go, though there may be idiomatic possibilities for the spirits. Purplebackpack89 22:17, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

What about the following quotes:

  • "He would listen for the tinkle of chimes behind him, the hurried wind through louver windows, or the loose strand of a wandering conversation from the house next door, and think that they have come back to warn him, a Jacob Marley to his Scrooge, that reckoning was upon him."[14]
  • "Having been raised from the death of my sin, I often forge new bonds for myself, a Jacob Marley who should no longer be burdened but continues to carry the chains of my own making."[15]
  • "It would have been nice to have had a Jacob Marley who could have run down the rules at the start of the game for me."[16]

Do these count as "generic use"? —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 23:16, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

The first one is clearly referring to the characters in the book, and the second seems to. I don't know about the third. Chuck Entz (talk) 00:41, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
After looking at it in context, I would sat that the third one is referring to Jacob Marley's role in the narrative structure of the book. I think they all are referring to Jacob Marley as a character in the book, rather than as some kind of generic character or archetype, though the second quote is the least explicit about it. Chuck Entz (talk) 01:03, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
The following seems to apply, from Wiktionary:CFI#Fictional_universes: "With respect to names of persons or places from fictional universes, they shall not be included unless they are used out of context in an attributive sense." Examples are in Wiktionary:Criteria_for_inclusion/Fictional_universes. One of them is this: "Irabu had hired Nomura, a man with whom he obviously had a great deal in common, and, who, as we have seen, was rapidly becoming the Darth Vader of Japanese baseball." The "a Jacob Marley" quotes above appear to me very much like "the Darth Vader" in the above quote, although I am not sure what "attributive sense" mentioned in CFI is. --Dan Polansky (talk) 07:45, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
I would say "a Jacob Marley to his Scrooge" is attributive. It's simply extending the metaphor. I don't see how it's a problem if an author does use a name in an attributive sense and goes on to explain it too. Anyway, I've added 3.5 attributive citations. Choor monster (talk) 16:07, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
Now it's 4.5. I added a sports citation that is dead-on imitative of the Darth Vader example. Choor monster (talk) 16:18, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
Would this count?
  • 2012, Brian Norman, Dead Women Talking: Figures of Injustice in American Literature, page 93:
    Nor is she exactly a grand tormentor from beyond, Roy's own Jacob Marley.
Cheers! bd2412 T 16:51, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
One problem I see perusing the quotes is that there doesn't seem to be any agreement on what "Jacob Marley" as a common noun means. Is it a person wearing metaphorical chains? Is it a person with no metaphorical bowels? Is it a miser? Is it someone who warns someone else about the error of his ways? —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 17:17, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
I don't see why this is a problem. We run into the same question with almost any proper noun. Do we worry about the supposedly different meanings between "he spoke in a Darth Vader voice" and the Nomura example above? I'm quite sure the quotation wasn't referring to Nomura's breathing! Consider words like Dickensian. It can be used to refer to poverty, time/place, writing styles, plot twists, and so on. (We've split the meaning in two. It took four years and a bit of edit-warring.) There are exceptions: Scrooge and Tiny Tim are quite narrow. And when I created Ludlumesque, I didn't notice at first there were precisely two senses as to how it was used. Choor monster (talk) 21:18, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
Quite apart from "Jacob Marley" I think this is an important point. If (say) Bloggs is a famous author who wrote surrealistic beatnik novels about lonely poor people, then does "Bloggsian" suggest surrealism, beatnik-ism, loneliness, poverty, or a combination of some or all, and how is this to be defined? "Like the writings of Bloggs" is sufficient, but useless to somebody who hasn't read the books and wants to interpret the word. P.S. Jordanesque is my fave eponym. Equinox 21:30, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
Checking what the OED did with Dickensian, I noticed that our split in two is one sense there. But they had a noun sense (with three cites!) that we missed. I added the noun. Choor monster (talk) 21:44, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
I'm not bothered by the idea of a definition that lays out the general characteristics associated with the term, and then notes that the term is used to describe a person or thing sharing any number of those characteristics. bd2412 T 02:40, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

In my opinion, CFI are wrong when they require "used out of context in an attributive sense". I would exclude all these names, but I would include "single word" well-known names, considered as having entered the general vocabulary. But first name + last name names cannot have a linguistic interest. All these names, either fictional or not, including yours, can be used out of context in an attributive sense, but it only depends on encyclopedic characteristics. As it's a general rule, and no linguistic data (other than data about the first name and data about the last name) can be provided, they should be excluded. Lmaltier (talk) 18:02, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Your opinion isn't policy, so your comment serves no point. Your ideas regarding linguistic interest are purely your own. Of course every name can be used in an attributive sense, the question is which ones have in fact been used so.
I noticed that the existing citations for Tiny Tim were entirely non-attributive, yet it somehow passed RFV? I added 4 on the Citations page, all out of context attributive. Choor monster (talk) 20:23, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
Our policy is based on our editors' opinions, so yes, his comment is very much to the point. Ƿidsiþ 11:32, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
This discussion is whether Jacob Marley meets existing policy. Someone's wish for a different policy is completely pointless here. Choor monster (talk) 14:36, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
On one hand, I agree with Choor monster that any talk about changing policies belongs at the WT:BP, otherwise it is just whining. On the other hand, we have to remember that WT:CFI is meant to reflect out policies, not the other way around, and it often does so imperfectly or inaccurately. --WikiTiki89 14:50, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
@Lmaltier, I would point to Benedict Arnold as a clear instance where a first and last name must be used together to convey linguistic content. bd2412 T 22:20, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Kept for lack of consensus to delete. bd2412 T 17:09, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

August 2014[edit]

suꝑficialis[edit]

See also discussion at MediaWiki talk:Common.css#Font support for Latin Extended-D.

As far as I know we exclude such spellings on the same grounds we exclude long-s spellings for German, fi-ligature spellings for English and the like. -- Liliana 21:36, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

Delete. --WikiTiki89 22:02, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
Even if we allowed use of the contested character, it's an abbreviation, not an alternative spelling, and the cited use has no space in it. Considering the prevalence of conventions such as having part of a word in smaller characters above the line and underlined, though, I think it would be a bad idea to even try representing scribal shorthand. This particular variation has a Unicode look-alike, but most won't. Chuck Entz (talk) 22:39, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
Pace the nominator, Liliana, the exclusionary principle that applies to ſ, , etc. is inapplicable to ; ſ and can in every case be correctly converted to s and fi, respectively, without error. cannot be converted in the same way because sometimes it acts as a sigil for per, otherwise it may represent par, and at other times it stands for por. Therefore, the autoredirection that can be implemented for ſ, , and the like cannot be implemented for .
@Chuck Entz: This isn't just "a Unicode look-alike", it's one of Unicode's "Medievalist additions"; i.e., this is exactly the sort of thing for which was intended. The Medieval Unicode Font Initiative works to sort out which characters mean what, and where their proposals are accepted by the Unicode Consortium, I believe we should use these characters where appropriate. I'm not suggesting that we try to copy every nuance of scribal shorthand, but where certain conventions are sufficiently clear and widespread that they have been granted codepoints, I think it's safe for us to represent that aspect of scribal abbreviation.
Keep as creator. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 00:19, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
Keep ꝑ I.S.M.E.T.A. (How clever of me.) --Æ&Œ (talk) 21:32, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
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[edit]

I created this entry then realized it is probably SOP so thus added RFD to the entry and banner years. Yes, I should have checked out banner#Adjective first. If we do delete, I think it might be worth having a redirect for banner year to banner#Adjective. Cheers, Facts707 (talk) 17:31, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

batcape[edit]

Delete. More bupkis from a self-confessed WF sock, -- · (talk) 20:33, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

Did you try Google books ("batcape")? This word does exist, it's used in a number of books, in English, in French, etc. Most uses are capitalized, but not all of them. Lmaltier (talk) 20:42, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
Remarks: this word seems to be capitalised (Batcape); the definition is dubious (in reality, it seems to refer to the specific cape that is part of a Batman costume, not just any cape); and I've added two possible citations, though they aren't terribly satisfactory. Equinox 21:09, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
I think this needs citations which are "independent of reference to that universe" per WT:FICTION Siuenti (talk) 21:15, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
Would we need to remove the 1st sense in vampire unless we find uses of this sense without reference to the vampire universe? Or fully remove the page cyclops if there was no 2nd sense? This rule seems absurd, and inconsistent with the basic rule all words in all languages. It's normal to exclude words created by an obscure novelist in one of its novels and not used alsewhere, because they cannot be considered as words of the language, but this is not the case here. Anyway, it's not a fictional word, as batcapes are actually existing objects, even if the words refers to fiction. Lmaltier (talk) 18:03, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
A "fictional universe" refers to a specific fictional universe, usually created and owned by one author or organization. If there were three entirely separate and independent fictional universes that all used the word "batcape", I would consider it attested. --WikiTiki89 18:22, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

epula, epulam, epulorum[edit]

The word epulum is heterogeneous, having neuter singular forms and feminine plural forms with epulae also acting as a plural noun. The feminine singular and neuter plural nouns epula are backformations User:JohnC5 4:19 AM August 8, 2014.

If they're back-formations, then they exist! Is that actually an RFV issue? Read the introduction of WT:RFV. Renard Migrant (talk) 14:46, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

The Snow Queen[edit]

Fairy tale and its character. Essentially a book title, thus not dictionary content despite the translation table. Equinox 06:03, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

Move to Snow Queen and keep as the character. Translations need to be reviewed. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 10:31, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
Delete. If kept why not move to RFV? Also the title of the book is... The Snow Queen so the move would have to be a split not a move. Renard Migrant (talk) 12:10, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

go to work[edit]

Rfd-sense: the first two senses "To begin performing some task or work." and "To go to one's job, as by commuting." should be replaced by {{&lit|go|to|work}}. -- Liliana 00:24, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

The first sense would not be idiomatic, even with our definitions of work. We have the right sense of the components for "to go to one's job".
There is a use of the expression for which we lack the right sense of work#Noun. MWOnline has what seems like the right definition: "sustained physical or mental effort to overcome obstacles and achieve an objective or result". They place it as a subsense under the sense "activity in which one exerts strength or faculties to do or perform something:". MW puts their definition for our "employment" sense as a subsense to the same sense, whereas we make "employment" to be a main sense.
go/get to work often use the MW sense. Definitions that to not include elements corresponding to "sustained effort", "overcoming obstacles", and "achieving results or objectives" fail to capture this.
At least we have the right sense of go: "start". DCDuring TALK 01:45, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
In my parochial experience, "(let's) get to work" is commoner. I would imagine work covers it. Equinox 01:52, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
Keep as a translation target (even just one, literal sense). At least three four languages have a word for it (zh, ja, ko, vi). --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 02:38, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

送料共[edit]

Sum of its parts, non-idiomatic: 送料共 (sōryō-tomo, "shipping fee included") = 送料 (sōryō, shipping fee) + (tomo, altogether, included). It is simply a productive combination of nouns and the suffix -tomo, as seen in usages like 手数料共 (tesūryō-tomo, "transaction fee included") = 手数料 (tesūryō, transaction fee) + (-tomo), 消費税共 (syōhizei-tomo, "consumption tax included") = 消費税 (syōhizei, consumption tax) + (-tomo), 電池共 (denchi-tomo, "battery included") = 電池 (denchi, battery) + (-tomo), etc. unsigned comment by Whym 09:11, 13 August 2014‎ (UTC)

Tentatively delete, although it's included in EDICT. I have added one usage example at . --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 02:56, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

mackinaw jacket[edit]

Also mackinaw coat. A jacket (coat) made from mackinaw. Entry content is encyclopaedic. Compare "denim jacket", "woollen jumper", etc. Equinox 19:40, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Delete, about as straightforward as it gets. Renard Migrant (talk) 09:31, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Delete both per nom. bd2412 T 02:11, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Deleted. bd2412 T 17:40, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

  • An example of geographic/institutional bias, IMO. I just don't care enough to fight the trend. DCDuring TALK 18:15, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
    • You could have commented in the discussion earlier. It has been open for three weeks, and no one said anything after the first week had passed. We had three editors favoring deletion and none offering any defense. It seemed apparent that no one cared to keep this. bd2412 T 18:36, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
      • I chose not to. One vote would not have mattered. This way the bias is more clearly displayed. DCDuring TALK 19:54, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

rediculous (usage note)[edit]

The following usage note is herewith proposed for deletion: "This spelling may sometimes be used intentionally for effect."

Rationale: weak or non-existence evidence supporting the usage note.

--Dan Polansky (talk) 20:24, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Wouldn't this be an WT:RFV thing? --WikiTiki89 20:25, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
I don't know. Even if quotations are provided, their assessment as to their support for the usage note may turn very controversial. I propose to leave it here in RFD, and let those who want to keep this collect as much supporting evidence as they can. In the end, the closure will be a RFD-one, based on vote counting. (Yes, in the ideal world, it would be based on the strength of arguments, but no one has yet come up with an algorithm assessing strength of arguments.) --Dan Polansky (talk) 20:28, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
One citation that I provided makes exactly this distinction: May 28, 2013, The Official Justin Timberlake Thread, page 13: "I love Britney but, That's rediculous, not ridiculous but, rediculous!" Here the writer is basically indicating that they know the word is spelled "ridiculous" but that the situation is so extreme as to be "rediculous". I would also point again to 1986, Winston Groom, Forrest Gump, Ch. 7: "Him bein a tank officer an all, he say it rediculous for us to be wagin a war in a place where we can't hardly use our tanks on account of the land is mostly swamp or mountains". Here the misspelling is obviously being used as eye dialect representing the character's accent. 2013, Tracey Hollings, The Curious Musings of Sally Columbous, page 108, has a chapter heading titled "Rediculous". While we are on the subject, by the way, the number of hits for 18th and 19th century uses suggests that at one point this was a legitimate alternate spelling. bd2412 T 20:41, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
Eye dialect is yet another separate sense line, presumably, since it's neither (accidental) misspelling nor eccentric personal choice à la CodeCat. Equinox 20:43, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
Four senses, then? Common misspelling, intentional misspelling, eye dialect, archaic alternative use? bd2412 T 20:49, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
I thinking we're overdoing it. I think "misspelling" covers all those cases. But I'm going to vote keep on the usage note based on BD's evidence. --WikiTiki89 20:54, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
The way I've handled other things that were acceptable in the past but are now restricted in some way is along the lines of this: {{lb|en|now|nonstandard|or|eye dialect}} {{alternative spelling of|ridiculous}}. I recognize that "nonstandard or eye dialect" is a bit clunky, so perhaps "eye dialect of" could be a separate sense, but saying "now nonstandard: alternative spelling of" rather than having separate "archaic spelling of" and "misspelling of" senses seems useful. - -sche (discuss) 21:58, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
On further investigation, this Ngram suggests that it has been hovering around 500-1000 times less common than ridiculous (except for a bizarre spike around 1817-1818) for the last 200 years. It does, however, go back a ways before that. Here is a slightly earlier quote: 1598, William Shakespeare, Loves Labors Lost: the first quarto, page 57: "Their shallow showes, and Prologue vildly pende, And their rough carriage so rediculous, Should be presented at our Tent to vs". bd2412 T 22:13, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
With Shakespeare, one can always blame the typesetters. DCDuring TALK 23:06, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
Not really a matter of blame – spelling was rather fluid then. I would just say ‘obsolete or non-standard spelling of’. Ƿidsiþ 11:08, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
I don't think one citation from Shakespeare is enough to call it obsolete. --WikiTiki89 11:57, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
Here are some more citations contemporaneous to Shakespeare:
    • 1592, Thomas Nash, Pierce Penilesse, His Supplication to the Divell, page 28:
      Dalliance in the sagest and highest causes is an absurdity, and like a rediculous Vice in a tragedy, or a poisonous serpent in Paradise.
    • 1594, Robert Parsons, A Conference about the Next Succession of the Crown of Ingland, page 14:
      ...but if it be ment as though any Prince had his particuler gouermenr or interest to succeed by institutió of nature, it is rediculous, for that nature giueth it not as hath bin declared, but the particular constitution of euery comon wealth with-in it selfe...
    • 1603, George Gifford, ‎Thomas Wright, A Dialogue Concerning Witches & Witchcrafts, page 60:
      God hath given naturall helps, and those we may use, as from his hande against naturall diseases, but things besides nature he hath not appointed, especiallie they bee rediculous to drive away devilles and diseases.
    • 1609, Jean François Le Petit, A Generall Historie of the Netherlands, page 1288:
      It were a rediculous spectacle, that after they had stript our wives and children of all their clothes, and made them forfeit to your highnesse, they should afterward condemne them to depart out of your territories Within three dayes.
    • 1610, St. Augustine, Citie of God, page 327:
      O lamentable necessity! nay rediculous detestable vanitie, to keepe vanity from diuinitie.
Cheers! bd2412 T 13:26, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
Wow, excellent! --WikiTiki89 14:21, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
Was it the same typesetting shop? ;-) DCDuring TALK 15:36, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
But seriously, folks, EME is almost as bad as Middle English in terms of lack of standardized spelling. DCDuring TALK 15:38, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
That would certainly explain this. bd2412 T 16:09, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
I would have hypothesized proliferation from the very beginning. Maybe editing/proofreading was better initially, but rapid growth (and lower prices?) reduced such effort. I wonder if anyone has studied this? DCDuring TALK 16:28, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
Excellent citations from bd showing old usage. And I like the context + alt form solution which has been implemented. I question only whether it should say "archaic" rather than "obsolete". According to our glossary, obsolete is for things "no longer in use, no longer likely to be understood" while archaic is for things "no longer in general use, but ... generally understood by educated people, but rarely used in current texts or speech"; the latter seems to apply here.
PS, I find a few citations of "radiculous" as an archaic or obsolete spelling of "rediculous", plus a few citations of it as something related to "radicular" (but one book says "radicular pain" emanates from radicles, while "radiculous pain is pain without anatomic basis"). - -sche (discuss) 16:57, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
  • For the record, keep the usage note. bd2412 T 18:09, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

bïez[edit]

Apparently Spanish, which doesn't use ï. Also biez as alt form. --Type56op9 (talk) 18:58, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Sounds like a matter for rfv. Chuck Entz (talk) 19:10, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
All the first pages on Google show either Wiktionary or websites that, I assume, use the WT data. This page is speedy-able, IMO. --Type56op9 (talk) 08:15, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

September 2014[edit]

big-dicked[edit]

An IP has been tagging this for speedy deletion on the grounds that it's not a single word, so I thought I would bring it here. While I disagree with the stated grounds for deletion, I do think this is quite SOP. The only question in my mind is whether we keep hyphenated adjective-noun constructions.

To avoid making this a debate about alleged obscenity, let's look at analogous constructions with less-controversial body parts: big-nosed, big-eared, big-footed, etc. I would argue that there are lots of adjectives that could be used this way: long-fingered, bony-fingered, sharp-toothed, crooked-fingered, short-thumbed, wide-hipped, etc. We have entries for broad-shouldered and long-legged. The first makes sense, because it implies more than mere measurement, but I'm not sure about the second.

Going further afield, what about round-windowed, blue-painted, sandy-soiled, big-trunked, or wood-paneled? All of these seem similarly SOP to me. Chuck Entz (talk) 14:03, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

The meaning's very transparent. On the other hand it seems to me that it's a single word. Is the meaning easily derived from the sum of its parts? Possibly. To my surprise dicked#Adjective exists. Renard Migrant (talk) 14:13, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
At least we have the appropriate sense of dicked#Adjective. (Though we miss the other sense of dicked#Adjective ("screwed", "fucked"), which is almost certainly a true adjective.) I hope we have all the similar adjectives of the form 'noun + -ed'. DCDuring TALK 15:07, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
I scoured b.g.c for bigdicked in case this is coal-mineable, but no luck. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 15:28, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
Delete as redundant to dicked. Equinox 10:25, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
Delete. CFI's pretty clear on this one. Renard Migrant (talk) 13:33, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

후사를 부탁하다, 달라고 부탁하다‎ and others[edit]

Sum of parts. Wyang (talk) 23:31, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

They seem idiomatic and Lemming principle may be applicable. E.g. 후사를 부탁하다. Weak keep for now. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 01:43, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
But you can say 후사를 맡기다, etc. We should explain them in 후사. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 00:28, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
Thanks. I'm struggling a bit to understand the change in the meaning in both phrases. Besides, I think Lemming is a good principle. Even if 후사를 맡기다 were easy to understand from its parts, it's included in a reputable dictionary. The other phrase 달라고 부탁하다‎ is only included as a translation from English, though: 부탁하다%E2%80%8E 달라고 부탁하다‎ @Naver. I have added a usage note in 후사, just listing all translations from 후사를 부탁하다, in case it gets deleted. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 01:06, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Also: 간곡히 부탁하다, 노래부르다, 아침을먹다, 사람이군다. Wyang (talk) 01:17, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

I'd say keep for 노래부르다, 아침을먹다, 사람이군다. They are solid words (no space), even if with predictable meanings.
Admittedly, verbs can be attached to nouns without a space and can also be written separately, can be broken up, e.g. 인터넷하다 (inteonethada) (I was going to create it) can be spelled as 인터넷하다 (inteoneseul hada) or 인터넷 하다 (inteonet hada). --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 01:27, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
hada verbs/adjectives are different from these. The individual parts in these titles can be replaced with lots of others, eg. 밥을먹다 (incorrect spacing too), 녀석이군다, 남편이군다, 이름부르다, 값부르다. Wyang (talk) 01:40, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
To make it easier to process RFD's, maybe Wiktionary:Idioms_that_survived_RFD#Lemming_test should be applied for the correctly spelled verbs, even if there are variants with other basic verbs or spacing (only for those that have the same spelling and spacing in dictionaries, such as Naver od Daum)? --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 01:46, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
I moved 사람이군다 to 군요. For the rest, it should be noted that spaces are really commonly omitted in Korean. Especially 아침을먹다 should be speedy deleted because it contains the particle and therefore it cannot be a single word. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 01:27, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
Agreed. I'm changing my vote to only keep entries, for which there is an entry in Naver dictionary. So, still keep for 후사를 부탁하다 (did "aftermath" change its meaning?), 간곡히 부탁하다 and 노래부르다. The verb 노래부르다 ("to sing a song") seems similar to 춤추다 ("to dance a dance"). --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 22:58, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
husareul butakhada is a literal translation of Chinese 託付後事, which is sum of parts (same as Japanese equivalent: 後事を託する). Furthermore, there are three arguments in favour of their deletion: 1) Korean-Korean dictionaries should be consulted when deciding whether something potentially sum of parts should be included or not. I have yet to find such a K-K dictionary that includes these items. 2) Spaces are commonly omitted in Korean, non-orthographically. Both north and south orthographic rules dictate that verbs formed from (its substantative noun + the cognate verb root) are considered lemmas and are written without spaces in between. Hence 춤추다, 꿈꾸다, 숨쉬다, 잠자다, 짐지다, 셈세다, 뜸뜨다, but 노래 부르다, 이름 부르다. 3) The individual components in these words can be replaced by many other words. Apart from 간곡히 부탁하다, one can also say 간곡히 타이르다, 간곡히 말리다, 간곡히 말하다, 간곡히 빌다; apart from 후사를 부탁하다, one can also say 후사를 맡기다, 일을 부탁하다. Wyang (talk) 23:44, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
OK. You both presented good arguments and you both have good knowledge of Korean. I concede my failure and agree to the deletion. :) --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 00:07, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
To be clear, then, please strike (cross out) your "Keep" vote(s). Cheers! bd2412 T 13:37, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
OK. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 22:37, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Keep, since from looking at 후사를 부탁하다, the sum of parts claim is incomprehensible to me: comparing the etymology "From 후사 (hosa), aftermath + (reul), object suffix + 부탁하다 (butak-hada), request" with the definitions given does not yield sum of partness. Part of the problem is that 후사를 (the 1st component of the allegged sum of parts) is now a redlink. This nomination should take care to explain the sum of parts claim, on a per entry basis. I might think that I should better not vote, since I speak no Korean, but I think the nomination should provide an explanation detailed enough to make the sum of parts claim at least plausible to those who speak no Korean, especially since there are not Koreans around to weigh in instead of non-Korean speakers. Furthermore, "and others" appearing in the heading of the nomination is not an acceptable RFD nomination, IMHO. --Dan Polansky (talk) 10:15, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

of biblical proportions[edit]

There are many adjectives that fit into the slot occupied by biblical. Some examples are epic (the most common), historic, apocalyptic, Freudian, mythical, mythological, brobdingnagian.

Biblical is used in this sense of "large" with nouns like scale, size, deluge, flood.

This just looks like a typical effort to memorialize a phrase some contributor found fascinating. of biblical proportions at OneLook Dictionary Search shows that we stand alone among the references they include. DCDuring TALK 00:26, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Delete. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 01:43, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
keep: it's idiomatic and the exact meaning can't easily be gleaned from SoP. I would change PoS to 'Prepositional phrase' however Leasnam (talk) 12:59, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
WHY do you say it is idiomatic, when the components seem to clearly have the meanings needed? Is the key word in your objection "readily"? Does that mean someone having to consulting [[biblical]] might also have to consult [[proportion]]? That they would have to scan more than one definition at each entry (ie, to definition 3 at [[biblical] and 6 at [[proportion]])? DCDuring TALK 15:33, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
whoops, i should have checked biblical first--its covered there. Changing my nom to Delete. Normally i dont think of biblical in this sense in any other phrases, hence my original conclusion. Leasnam (talk) 15:58, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
Redirect to biblical. It’s common, but it’s more or less synonymous with sense number three. --Æ&Œ (talk) 21:22, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

microfractionator[edit]

Either bizarre spam, or a very poor attempt at a definition that leaves one none the wiser for having read it. Vorziblix (talk) 04:59, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Speedied as no usable content given. It looks like it must be an item of lab equipment. Apparently they're so used to working with them that they skipped the definition and went straight to explaining what microfractionators are used for and the considerations affecting how you use them- which belong in some kind of a manual, not in a dictionary. Chuck Entz (talk) 06:55, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
Added an actual definition. SemperBlotto (talk) 08:44, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

sic semper tyrannis[edit]

Sum of parts. The fact that it's the motto of the State of Virginia isn't a definition, or relevant. Mottoes with no linguistic merit should not be kept. A motto just means someone's adopted it; it does not become more linguistically interesting because of it. Let Wikipedia handle it. Renard Migrant (talk) 13:55, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Delete as a sum of parts if it remains Latin. The “motto of the State of Virginia” line should go even if the entry is converted to an English proverb. — Ungoliant (falai) 16:16, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
Keep idioms like fried egg are a sum of their parts and allowed. There is a long list of English phrases and Latin phrases that are allowed. This is as famous an idiom or phrase as many included in these categories. I believe this is Latin and not English. A search comes with the following numbers: Google web About 459,000 results (0.34 seconds), Google scholar About 1,150 results (0.05 sec) and Google books About 16,500 results (0.31 seconds) plenty of usage to justify an entry. WritersCramp (talk) 17:41, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
There's also a long list of phrases that have been deleted. The reason fried egg has been kept is for not being the sum of its parts: if you coat a hard-boiled egg in batter and deep-fry it, it's not the same as a fried egg. There are plenty of famous phrases we wouldn't want to include: "To be or not to be, that is the question", "It was the best of times, it was the worst of times", "Four score and seven years ago", "Frankly Scarlett, I don't give a damn", etc. They have all kinds of interesting history and cultural associations- but that's for an encyclopedia to deal with, not an dictionary. Also, the phrase is probably both Latin and English, but as Latin it's no more entry-worthy than then the translation "thus always to tyrants". As English, it might be worth keeping, as I've said below. Chuck Entz (talk) 22:29, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Keep the general sense but delete the Virginia state motto sense. This is a set phrase likely to turn up outside of a clear context in writing. bd2412 T 21:01, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
This has a long history going back to Ancient Rome, and it was spoken by w:John Wilkes Booth when he assassinated w:Abraham Lincoln, but that's irrelevant for our purposes. I think one could make the case that people who use it in English don't always know what the individual words mean, and there's also some usage of "sic semper" as an abbreviation or nickname for the phrase- both pointing to the likelihood of its having become an idiomatic part of English. Chuck Entz (talk) 22:08, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
I don't see why usage is irrelevant. Keep all senses. It seems kinda ridiculous to keep the derived (English) form, but not the original (Latin) form. Heck, being a word or phrase from which words are derived should be a CFI. Purplebackpack89 04:20, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
Note, however, that "motto of the state of Virginia" is not a correct definition of the phrase; it is merely an example of a use of the phrase. bd2412 T 13:07, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
Indeed, surely you're not advocating keeping wrong information. Renard Migrant (talk) 10:57, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Keep sense 1, Delete sense 2 It's a proverb, and one that's not sum of parts. Literally, it simply means "tyrants will always be treated this way" with no indication of what "this way" is (harshly? lavishly? apathetically?). In actual use, it only ever means "tyrants shall be overthrown/killed". Finally, there is some use of it in running English without gloss, and without reference to either Virginia or Lincoln's assassination (with italics, but that's pretty standard for Latin, even for phrases like in vitro and a priori that are quite widely understood):
    "Those who live by electronics, die by electronics. Sic semper tyrannis" (Player Piano, Kurt Vonnegut, page 60)
    There is now a perverse pleasure in circles in Asia and Africa that Howard was scotched — sic semper tyrannis, and all that.
    "Sic semper tyrannis," he said. "They get away with anything."
Smurrayinchester (talk) 13:52, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Was this attestably used as a proverb in Latin? If so, that would make it includable without regard to its beng SoP.
    Whether or not it was so used in Latin, the expression seems to be used as a proverb in English, probably attestably for our purposes. DCDuring TALK 16:01, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
WritersCramp, I'd like you to make a coherent argument. Yes we allow Latin phrases but not all Latin phrases possible. Like in Category:English phrases we have Bob's your uncle but not I have a big dog. If you think this is idiomatic, say why. You just say we keep idiomatic phrases, you don't claim that this is one. And number of hits is irrelevant, you can get thousands of hits for I have a big dog. Renard Migrant (talk) 18:15, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
You first Renard; IMHO your +tag is frivolous! WritersCramp (talk) 19:06, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
We don't really care about your opinion about tags. You ain't got the creds.
Can you find the evidence that this was a proverb in, say, classical Latin? DCDuring TALK 21:26, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
I have been here two-years longer than you noobie -:)WritersCramp (talk) 22:15, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
But you haven't done anything except whine and bitch. DCDuring TALK 23:01, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
Definite keep as English as it's attested, and definitely idiomatic (tyrannis isn't a word in English, so how can it be sum of parts?). As for the Latin, no idea. Attested would be a good start, as for idiomatic I have no idea. Renard Migrant (talk) 22:39, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
WritersCramp with all due respect, I think you're just not capable of making good arguments. If you were, you'd have done it already. Renard Migrant (talk) 22:39, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
The good argument has already been made. You keep the English term because it has a meaning of its own, you keep the Latin term because the English term has been derived from it. While we're at it, we create fiat lux for similar reasons. Purplebackpack89 04:09, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
w:John Wilkes Booth shouted this phrase as he shot President Lincoln. It has also been used in books and movies, such as w:Into the Blue (2005 film). It’s an important phrase. —Stephen (Talk) 04:43, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
Yup! In reality that is just scratching the surface, there are many many citations available to use, including Brutus words when stabbing Caesar. WritersCramp (talk) 08:45, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
Prove it by actually citing some Latin works to support the Latin entry. DCDuring TALK 09:32, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
That's the thing, the Latin doesn't get a free pass just because the English is derived from it. It has to meet WT:CFI/ If this is so easy to cite, why doesn't someone just cite it? Renard Migrant (talk) 10:48, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
What kind of silly world do we live in that derivatives pass CFI but roots fail it? CFI should be written in such a way so that roots like this are auto-passes. Purplebackpack89 13:35, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
Nothing silly about it: an SOP phrase isn't a root, it's just a phrase. A Latin entry wouldn't add any useful information- the etymology should simply link to the individual words, and provide a gloss, if necessary. That said, if anyone can show that the phrase is idiomatic in Latin, then we should have a Latin entry. Chuck Entz (talk) 14:04, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
(Edit conflict) I'm not convinced that's a good idea. For example, would we want an English entry on same procedure as last year? SOP in English with no setness, but a common set phrase in German (eg 1, 2, 3). Smurrayinchester (talk) 14:13, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
Like Chuck Entz says, why would we want to include anything that doesn't meet CFI and doesn't add anything useful. We can explain the meaning of the words in the etymology section. Renard Migrant (talk) 15:04, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
Can we de-tag the English yet? Renard Migrant (talk) 10:57, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
Who nominated the English for deletion? DCDuring TALK 16:04, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
Actually that's a good point! Renard Migrant (talk) 17:20, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Thus always what to tyrants? Thus always nice to tyrants? Thus always silent to tyrants? Thus always doom to tyrants? Thus always birthday cake to tyrants? --Æ&Œ (talk) 17:55, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

George Mason, who may have suggested the expression as the State of Virginia's motto in 1776, can have wished no less than loss of dominion on King George, perhaps also madness, and disappointment from and betrayal by his son. Premature death? Heavens no! DCDuring TALK 18:19, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
Yes, it could also mean death, but why is that implication necessary for you? How is the implication of death certain? You have to say this in context to comprehend the meaning, otherwise, how is the meaning obvious? You’re weird. --Æ&Œ (talk) 18:36, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
Here is Mason's verbal specification of the seal:
"Virtus, the genius of the commonwealth, dressed like an Amazon, resting on a spear with one hand, and holding a sword in the other, and treading on Tyranny, represented by a man prostrate [supine in the actual seal], a crown fallen from his head, a broken chain in his left hand, and a scourge in his right. In the exergon, the word Virginia over the head of Virtus; and underneath the words Sic Semper Tyrannis. On the reverse a group, Libertas, with her wand and pileus. On one side of her Ceres, with the cornucopia in one hand, and an ear of wheat in the other. On the other side Eternitas, with the globe and phoenix. In the exergon these words: Deus Nobis Haec Otia Fecit."
The imagery is of defeat and loss of power, not death. This was the American Revolution, not the French. DCDuring TALK 21:52, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
  • I've sent the Latin section to WT:RFV#sic semper tyrannis. The English section was not there when this RFD started, and the nominator Renard Migrant does not seem to intend to have the English section deleted; hence, this RFD is to be understood to be about the Latin section, also per the tagging in the mainspace. --Dan Polansky (talk) 20:36, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
Keep and move to rfv. It's an attestation issue. it must be attested with an idiomatic meaning otherwise it's liable to be rfd'd again. Renard Migrant (talk) 16:53, 12 September 2014 (UTC)


Pokémon & related[edit]

As Pokémon and Baby Pokémon got removed, so should the Pokémon terms Basic Pokémon, Pikachu, Eevolution, Pokédollar, Pokémaniac, Pokéfan. It's simply ridiculous to delete the more common word "Pokémon" but not to delete those more uncommon words like "Basic Pokémon" and "Eevolution" and those compounds with the word "Pokémon" like "Basic Pokémon". -93.196.241.55 12:25, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Well, that's quite a big mixture of terms. At the very least, Pokémaniac and Pokéfan should be kept, because they're not in-universe terms. Basic Pokémon is a clear delete. Pikachu... well, maybe it's used generically, like Godzilla? Should probably be RFV'd. Eevolution and Pokédollar are weird, because they're not actually terms from Pokémon, they're words invented by fans to describe parts of the game. Going by the letter of WT:FICTION, these pass - I don't know whether they're really in the spirit of the rule though. Smurrayinchester (talk) 12:44, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
Even though I was in the vanguard of deleting Pokémon universe stuff, I don't agree with you on all of these. The word "Pokéfan" does not describe something that only exists within the P~ universe (like the creature "Pikachu"); rather it describes a real-world fan, a thing in the world, and outside the game and series. Compare X-Phile (fan of The X-Files). I think we should keep such terms. Equinox 12:59, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
To be specific: I think (unless they are not CFI-attestable) we should keep Pokémaniac and Pokéfan, which are real-world entities; probably delete Pokédollar and Eevolution, which appear to be fan-created terms but are restricted to the single fictional universe; and delete Basic Pokémon and Pikachu, which are "official" in-universe terms. Equinox 13:10, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Anybody think Poké- is attestable enough for creation as a prefix, much like Mc- in regard to McDonalds? Purplebackpack89 13:26, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
  • @Smurrayinchester: "Pokédollar" is an official in-universe Pokémon term - at least in some non-English regions (and at least accourding to Pokémon wikis like bulbapedia and pokewiki).
  • In case of "Pokémaniac": Is it used outside the Pokémon universe and is it not just another spelling of the in-universe terms "PokéManiac" resp. "Poké Maniac"?
  • In case of "Poké-": When counting in-universe terms, then it should be. When not counting them, then maybe not. Also: Doesn't "Mc-" come from Scottish names and not from McDonalds (like that Highlander guy "Connor MacLeod" though it's "Mac-" there)?

-93.196.241.55 14:37, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Keep Pokéfan and Pokémaniac. There's as much cause to delete these as there is to delete Trekkie. Also keep Eevolution and Pokédollar. WT:FICTION doesn't apply here, since both of these terms originate from the Pokémon fandom, not the official Pokémon franchise, and there's nothing in WT:FICTION that precludes the inclusion of fandom slang used within a specific fandom (so long as it's citable). -Cloudcuckoolander (talk) 23:49, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
Keep. No valid deletion rationale given (nothing in WT:CFI about deleting 'simply ridiculous' entries). Feel free to RFV anything that might not pass. Renard Migrant (talk) 16:56, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
Keep all, undecided about Basic Pokémon. Restore Pokémon. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 01:49, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

mackinaw coat[edit]

RfV tag added in mid August, but apparently not entered here.

Generally similar to the now-deleted mackinaw jacket, now deleted.

But see mackinaw coat at OneLook Dictionary Search. Ergo: Keep. DCDuring TALK 20:00, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Delete. I think anything to be said about this is for Wikipedia; the denim jacket, straw hat, etc. also have cultural connotations, but in terms of definition they are just a Y made of X. Equinox 23:52, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
That's the etymology. The coat seems to be something more specific in length, belt, cut, pockets, etc, not necessarily though usually of the metonymous cloth, which are some of the reasons why professional lexicographers have an entry for it. This reminds of the discussion of oak and oak tree, the inclusion of the latter being a good precedent for this. I being small-minded, find consistency compelling. Of course, institutional bias favors things familiar to a large portion of contributors. which this North American artifact is not. DCDuring TALK 01:19, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
It still seems cultural rather than lexical. The straw hat is always flat-topped and not round like a bowler (I think?!), but if somebody did produce a round hat of straw it would presumably still be a straw hat. The fact that straw hats tend to be flat-topped, and/or worn by picnickers and old-fashioned schoolboys, is not lexical. Equinox 01:30, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Delete. All of the OneLook dictionaries that have an entry for "mackinaw coat" define it as synonymous with "mackinaw", so all we really need is a sense "a coat made of this material" at mackinaw and we're good. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 09:41, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
    We could provide users with that help, too. Or we could treat [[mackinaw]] as a disambiguation page. Or we could make the various collocations redirects to a better entry at [[mackinaw]] with fuller definitions, and possibly pictures for the coat/jacket. DCDuring TALK 11:06, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
    We don't have disambig pages here, do we? I think if I were to encounter "mackinaw coat" in my reading and wondered what it meant, the first thing I would look up in my dictionary is mackinaw, not mackinaw coat. I know what a coat is. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 13:04, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
    Au contraire mon ami, we have many. They are quite similar to WP dab pages, except they lack the formal designation. The ones I am most familiar with are for vernacular names of living things, eg, [[rockfish]], but there are many others. DCDuring TALK 15:19, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
Keep both, especially since they predate the use of ‘Mackinaw’ alone (not true, see below). Ƿidsiþ 10:25, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
In fact what should really be up for RFD is the sense of ‘Mackinaw’ as ‘heavy woollen cloth’, since as far as I know it's only ever used in compounds like this. The meaning is not ‘a coat made of Mackinaw’, but rather ‘a coat associated with the Mackinaw lake’, hence also terms like Mackinaw boat (which naturally is not made of cloth). Ƿidsiþ 10:30, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
You are almost certainly right for current English. The "heavy woolen cloth" definition is at least dated, but it has historical/literary interest. If "coat/jacket of mackinaw" appeared in a text, I suspect most users would not type in "mackinaw coat/jacket". DCDuring TALK 11:11, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
If it's true that "mackinaw coat" is older than "mackinaw" in the relevant sense, then it's keepable by WT:JIFFY. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 13:06, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
For the record, the definition of mackinaw jacket prior to deletion was:
# A short coat made of mackinaw cloth, a dense water-repellent wool. These jackets were popular with lumberjacks and outdoor enthusiasts throughout the colder regions of North America for much of the 18th and 19th centuries. They had at minimum two breast pockets, though four front pockets are common. Mackinaw jackets can be of any color, but the black and red plaid "lumberjack" pattern was most common. [They are warm and comfy, perfect to wear while enjoying a fresh cup of coffee on a November morning, while standing on the hand-built wooden deck outside your kitchen, overlooking the tree-lined slopes. I once knew a girl who wore a mackinaw jacket, her innocent eyes curling up into the sky like whisps of smoke.]
I may have added a few lines, but you get the picture. bd2412 T 14:10, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
Seems like it could have used help from a contributor instead of the back of the hand. But it is not easy to write a good definition for any real object that varies around a typical configuration. The prototype for the problem is game. DCDuring TALK 15:19, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
Actually, correction – I made a mistake there. Per the OED, mackinaw in the sense of ‘cloth’ does, indeed, predate the sense of ‘coat’. Apologies. Nevertheless I still vote to keep the compounds. Ƿidsiþ 14:51, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Keep, erring on the side of. Per DCDuring and Widsith. Collins has "mackinaw" defined as "Mackinaw coat"[17]. A key question is whether "mackinaw" is ever used alone to refer to the cloth (or to the coat?), or whether it almost always occurs in compounds; I don't know. Again, nothing very strightforward. --Dan Polansky (talk) 19:08, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

A comment for the keepers: if this were kept, something else should be offered as definition than the current mackinaw coat! Meanwhile, delete. --Hekaheka (talk) 04:50, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

  • The previous definition was "A mackinaw jacket". I changed it following the deletion of that entry, per the previous vote on this page. I have provided the previous definition of "mackinaw jacket" above. bd2412 T 17:15, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
Delete per Widsith and others. Renard Migrant (talk) 12:11, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
Widsith argued for keeping, so your comment makes no sense to me. --Dan Polansky (talk) 08:05, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
Yes it does, he says keep because the significance is cultural not lexical, and I say delete because the significance is cultural not lexical. Renard Migrant (talk) 10:41, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
@Renard Migrant: the word "cultural" does not appear anywhere in Widsith responses. Which sentence of Widsith is to the effect that the significance of the compound mackinaw coat is cultural and not lexical? --Dan Polansky (talk) 12:18, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

whooping-crane[edit]

Definition given is "attributive form of whooping crane". msh210 made loads of similar "attributive form of XYZ" entries a few years ago. How do we feel about them? --Type56op9 (talk) 11:28, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Some were deleted. See e.g. Talk:alpine-chough. I doubt most are even attestable, but I suppose it's an RFV issue; though I'd also argue that replacing spaces with hyphens in this way is a standard thing we don't need to document, like we don't include initial-capital-letter forms for use at the beginning of a sentence. Equinox 11:43, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
(Edit conflict) While I personally don't have a massive objection to them, I do wonder if it's a bit misleading. In Google books, I can find only a few sources that hyphenate "whooping crane" in compounds (although just enough to push us over the 3 citation mark). Practically every source uses it open, even when it's clearly attributive (as in the martial art school "whooping crane style"). These hyphenated forms are at best pedantic, and at worst totally unused. Smurrayinchester (talk) 11:55, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
What exactly would a martial art school teach? Creative camouflage? Decorative gunstock design? Would there be paint-by-numbers drill? DCDuring TALK 15:35, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
  • If the hyphenated form is not present, our search engine takes a user to the page-not-found page and offers a list topped by the with-space form and any entries containing the with-space form in the headword, followed by the spelled-solid forms. If we cannot alter the behavior of the search engine to go directly to the list-topping forms, it might be nicer to have redirects between hyphenated and with-space forms, hard if possible, soft if necessary, instead of making users page past the New Entry Creator and click on what is most-likely sought. It is tedious to have to make alternate-form entries for one or the other for all the barely attestable vernacular names of living things, for example. DCDuring TALK 15:49, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
The main problem (aside from validity I mean) is they're listed as adjectives but listed as alternative forms of nouns. Msh210 when I asked him about this said that while they are nouns, they may appear to be adjectives to readers. So even the person who created them as adjectives thinks that they're nouns. Renard Migrant (talk) 16:51, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
I agree that "noun" is a better PoS, but separate hyphenated-form entries (or separate with-space entries if the hyphenated form in more common) seem to me to add next to nothing that is not accomplished by the alternative-form section.
The need for hyphens is not lexical; it is determined by context, orthographic fashion, taste, and habit. DCDuring TALK 17:00, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
As others have noted, the POS headers are wrong in apparently all of these entries. The strings that are attested should use Template:attributive of under a noun header. (If anyone thinks the strings are attested as adjectives, we can go to RFV to find out.) The strings that aren't attested, well, those should be sent to RFV and then, when they fail RFV, deleted. - -sche (discuss) 05:21, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
It might be nice to convert such items to redirects to the unhyphenated forms. It would discourage the needless re-creation of hyphenated form entries. DCDuring TALK 00:39, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
I'm aware my input isn't terribly useful but, we could go either way. Deletion seems fine as they're just typographical variants in the same way that House is a typographical variant of house used as the first word of a sentence. Or alternatively {{attributive form of}} looks fine also. I'd shade towards keeping and correcting over deletion, and of course unattestable ones should go, that goes without saying. Renard Migrant (talk) 11:29, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

cordifolia[edit]

Translingual. This should not be a lemma, which would be cordifolius.

As forms of cordifolius appear inflected in scientific Latin running text, it also doesn't seem best considered a Translingual term. DCDuring TALK 00:31, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

cordifolia[edit]

Latin. This seems to be the wrong lemma as one can find cordifolius, cordifolium, and other non-feminine forms. DCDuring TALK 00:33, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Well, it says m, f, n so it claims to be a lemma. Of course the Translingual isn't redundant to the Latin because they're different languages (well, of course it's a bit more complicated than that). Renard Migrant (talk) 10:39, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

pissed as a fart[edit]

I have made this entry a full simile entry. I send it to RFD, since the entry was first moved to pissed as a ..., which was then deleted. Keep; this is not even a sum of parts, AFAICT. --Dan Polansky (talk) 13:37, 21 September 2014 (UTC)