Talk:tiim

Etymology

@Mlgc1998 The first two etymologies here, from a source? The third one seems sourced from Chan-Yap, though a different character, the "tim" found in Chan-Yap is pointing to 𤆤. The first two ones are what I find puzzling. Thanks. Mar vin kaiser (talk) 11:19, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser can't fully remember, but I remember getting back on this page multiple times. I think long ago, I saw the word first in Chan-Yap's paper and then also checked it on KWF's diksiyonaryo.ph , but Chan-Yap said the Hokkien term was 蒸 ("tǐm"), which here in wikt, the pronunciation did not match besides the meaning, but I did remember that there was indeed a Hokkien term I've heard of in ph that was pronounced like "tim" and knew it was also the one that was used in pata tim, but I only found the 沉 (chén) entry in en.wiktionary back then but I knew it wasn't this at least for steaming, so I checked 闽南方言大词典 and it said there at page 314 that there was a 𤆤 (zhèn), but back then, there was no 𤆤 (zhèn) entry yet in en.wiktionary, so later I found 𤆤 (zhèn) in zh.wiktionary and th.wiktionary and given the info in those plus in 闽南方言大词典, I combined them to make the 𤆤 (zhèn) entry for en.wiktionary, then since diksiyonaryo.ph had 3 different definitions provided, I put 𤆤 (zhèn) for the cooking-related steam one, then 沉 (chén) for the soak one, then for the jaws clenched one, I remember looking through 闽南方言大词典 and finding 致蔭／致荫 there as well at page 6. Mlgc1998 (talk) 17:49, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

@Mlgc1998: The thing is though, only the sense of "steaming" has a Chinese origin, and only the sense of "steaming" has an alternate form of "tim". The rest seem like guesswork, so we can't include that. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 22:07, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser you mean in the diksiyonaryo? there are a lot of entries in the past in the diksiyonaryo that weren't labeled with "[Tsi]" but they were still likely from hokkien. i'll just put the usual wordings Mlgc1998 (talk) 22:52, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

@Mlgc1998: All sources, I mean. All the Tagalog dictionaries available and other sources. We can't assume it, and there's no tight link to a Chinese origin except for "tiim" (steamed). It's similar to folk etymologies when people try to force an etymology but it turns out to be wrong, so we can't do that. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 23:00, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

@Mlgc1998: It shouldn't be "possible" because the meanings are far apart. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 23:00, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

@Mlgc1998: Though to be fair with you, "沉" could be a close semantic change. It's within the realm of possibility. But the first one, "致蔭", the meanings are too far away, so that would be pushing it. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 23:02, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser How are they far? There's words like tiis. Mlgc1998 (talk) 23:04, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

@Mlgc1998: Oh, I mean it could be slightly related to the Tagalog word tiis, given the concept of enduring something, and the similarity of the words. But not "致蔭". It would be like me saying the etymology of tawa is Hokkien 骰仔, because you laugh when you play dice. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 23:07, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

@Mlgc1998: Oh I see the edits you made, adding "compare". That's good. But "致蔭" still doesn't make sense, I think it should be removed. It has the same merit of adding 骰仔 into "tawa", or 相拍 into sapak. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 23:15, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

@Mlgc1998: So what do you think? Is it ok if I remove "致蔭"? --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 13:31, 12 June 2022 (UTC)