Category talk:Korean determiners

What is a Korean determiner?

I'm afraid I know very little about Korean grammar, but I have a hard time seeing how words like:

  방수 (bangsu, hanja 防水)
  1. waterproof (waterproof)

would qualify as determiners in any language.--Brett 15:35, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

There are many aspects of Korean grammar that are confusing to the uninitiated.  :-) Most Korean words that we translate into English as adjectives are called 형용사 (hyeong-yongsa) in Korean grammar. Those words are used predicatively, and are syntactically similar to English verbs. In the English Wiktionary, those words belong in Category:Korean adjectives. As Category:Korean determiners briefly explains, though, there is a different class of words called 관형사 (gwanhyeongsa), which includes all attributive adjectives (before the noun it modifies, within that noun's noun phrase), and which we call “Korean determiners”. 방수 (bangsu, “waterproof”) is not a 형용사 (hyeong-yongsa) because it is used attributively. So, it is indeed a 관형사 (gwanhyeongsa) and does belong in this category. Does that make sense? Rod (A. Smith) 16:51, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

It's not the grammar itself that is confusing, but rather the choice of terminology. I speak Japanese, which has a similar group of words, so I understand the concept. According to Wikipedia (if you'll accept that as a reference), "A determiner is a noun modifier that expresses the reference of a noun or noun phrase, including quantity, rather than its attributes as expressed by adjectives." Clearly, that's not what is being referred to here, so if we use (deprecated template usage) determiner to refer to this group of adjective-like words, it seems bound to confuse. Wouldn't it make sense to simply call them attributive adjectives?--Brett 01:44, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, none of the references we've run across so far have used *(deprecated template usage) attributive adjective to refer to these words, but, as shown in our entry for 관형사 (hyeong-yongsa), English-language Korean linguistics publications have used (deprecated template usage) determiner, (deprecated template usage) determinative, (deprecated template usage) adnominal adjective, (deprecated template usage) attributive, (deprecated template usage) pre-noun, (deprecated template usage) unconjugated adjective, and (deprecated template usage) unconjugation adjective. Of those, I seem to remember a majority of editors here prefering (deprecated template usage) determiner. That isn't to say it's a closed discussion, but we should limit our translation of the Korean grammar word to a translation commonly used in English texts about Korean grammar. Unless you have a favorite English text on Korean grammar handy, do you like any of the preceding list? Rod (A. Smith) 02:56, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

By the way, any help you can offer in Appendix:Korean grammatical terms would be much appreciated.  :-) Rod (A. Smith) 03:02, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

I posted this to talk: about korean, but I'll post it here too: I think this needs to be moved again. Determiners isn't right as what has been labeled "determiners" in Korean doesn't behave like English determiners and would only serve to confuse english readers who are familiar with the technical aspects of determiners. [1]. This academic paper has a break down on why they're not determiners and makes a case for Korean being a determiner-less language. I've seen reliable sources refer to these words as "pre-nouns" and I think that is a much better description of them. [2] See page 19 and 21.--Crossmr 01:54, 4 January 2010 (UTC)