Module talk:zh/data/Christian-syn/牧師

Not quite the same

@The dog2 I don't think this module should exist. 1) The title should be in English. 2) 牧師 and 神父, while similar in their role superficially as clergy, are different and should probably not be conflated as synonyms. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 22:33, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: So what would you say is the difference then? I don't think it's necessarily just celibacy. Anglican priests can get married. I'm not sure about Orthodox priests though. The dog2 (talk) 22:38, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

@The dog2: It has to do with certain theological issues such as the priesthood of all believers in (most branches of) Protestantism and the priest being the one making sacrifices on behalf of people in the Eucharist in Roman Catholicism, which isn't really the case in (most branches of) Protestantism. (Orthodox priests can be married too.) (There are probably other complications, so I don't think it would be very helpful to simplify it to Protestant 牧師 = Roman Catholic/Eastern Orthodox 神父.) — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 22:59, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: OK then, do you think maybe listing it under "See also" would be useful then? I do recognise that there are some complications; for instance, Anglican clergy are called priests too, though whether Anglicans are Protestants or constitute a completely separate branch of Christianity is up for debate. The dog2 (talk) 23:09, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

@The dog2: Listing in "See also" should be good. I think also some usage notes might be helpful. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 23:21, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: OK, sounds good. Why don't you do it then? I'm not a theologian, so you probably know the theological differences better than I do. The dog2 (talk) 23:23, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

@The dog2: I'm not a theologian either 😅 I've added a usage note at 牧師. Perhaps @Mar vin kaiser can check if the Catholic info is accurate. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 23:33, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

@Justinrleung, The dog2: The way the terms are used in Chinese is a bit more complicated than English. In English, it's simple. "Pastor" is either an actual shepherd (with a flock) in a religious or figuratively religious sense, or a person with spiritual, religious authority/responsibility over a group of people. "Priest" is a person tasked to perform ceremonies of sacrifice. In the Protestant world, the word "pastor" is used for the figurative sense and the leader of each church. "Priest" is used in the Anglican (and Lutheran?) world (since they still have a Mass which is a sacrifice), but for the rest of the Protestants, it's used in the Bible since there are priests in the Bible. For Catholics, of course any priest can offer Mass. The word "pastor" is also used to refer to priests and bishops in the Catholic world, because they also take care of flock (the people), and also used in the figurative sense.

For Chinese, it's more complicated. "牧師" seems to be a purely Protestant term for "pastor" in the specific sense of a person with spiritual, religious authority. The word "牧者" is also used to mean "pastor" for Protestants but more of the Biblical pastor and a figurative pastor. 牧師 is also used by Catholics in the same way, but also to refer to bishops and priests to stress their function as pastors (ex. 教會牧者的主教們, "基督徒道德的「寶庫」，在牧者的保護和監督之下，才能代代傳遞下來。")

For the word "神父", it seems to be never used for Protestants, even Anglicans. It's used to refer to priests in the Catholic world and Orthodox world as well, it seems. The word "司鐸" is also used for Catholics (and Orthodox, it seems), but it seems to me that it's more bookish and formal. Next is the word "祭司" which means "priest" (person offering sacrifice). It seems to be used by both Catholics and Protestants but more to refer to the role rather than the person (at least today). I think it's in the Bible too? I can find the word used here in the Anglican world: http://echo.hkskh.org/issue.aspx?lang=2&id=174. Anyway, are 神父 and 牧師 equivalent? Though semi-analogous, they're not equivalent. They mean specific things in their own context. 牧師 is a 牧者, but for Protestants. 神父 is like a 祭司, but for Catholics/Orthodox. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 06:49, 13 January 2023 (UTC)