Module talk:zh/data/dial-syn/一直
Latest comment: 2 years ago by Freelance Intellectual in topic Penang Hokkien
Penang Hokkien
[edit]@Justinrleung There is a voice sample here on the online Penang Hokkien Dictionary, if you want to verify. Just search for "continuously" and you will see it. The dog2 (talk) 20:43, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
- @The dog2: Yeah, I know. I think it's actually 直直, but I'm not entirely sure. Maybe @Freelance Intellectual might be able to help if they see this. — justin(r)leung { (t...) | c=› } 20:45, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
- @Justinrleung: Yeah, I guess that's possible. But in Singapore, we say 直直 with the final "t" consonant, but you can hear from the voice sample in Penang Hokkien, it lacks that final "t" consonant and has a vowel final. The dog2 (talk) 20:48, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
- @The dog2: Yeah, that's why I'm not sure. It's possible that it's Timothy Tye's idiosyncracy, though. — justin(r)leung { (t...) | c=› } 20:57, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
- @Justinrleung: Yeah, I guess that's possible. But in Singapore, we say 直直 with the final "t" consonant, but you can hear from the voice sample in Penang Hokkien, it lacks that final "t" consonant and has a vowel final. The dog2 (talk) 20:48, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
- @Justinrleung: @The dog2: I think it's quite likely to etymologically derive from 直直. There are other function words where final stops are often dropped or glotallised in Penang, e.g. ta̍k-ta̍k -> ta̍h-ta̍h "every", and chit-pêng -> chih-pêng "here". Final glottal stops in Hokkien are not always pronounced in sandhi position, and ti̍h-ti̍h/tī-tī generally appears in sandhi position, so I wouldn't read too much into a recording of someone pronouncing it in isolation. On the other hand, 佇/咧 also appears pre-verbally with a similar meaning, so it's quite possible that the two are merging together in Penang. (Taiwan MOE writes 咧 for tih/teh/leh, which probably derives from 佇.) Freelance Intellectual (talk) 19:00, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
- @Freelance Intellectual: Thanks for your input! I wonder if any of the Penang Hokkien dictionaries you have access to include this word in question (either as tī-tī, ti̍h-ti̍h or ti̍t-ti̍t). — justin(r)leung { (t...) | c=› } 23:22, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
- @Justinrleung: De Gijzel has continuously tít-tít. Tan has ti̍t-ti̍t straight, with several examples like ti̍t-ti̍t kiâⁿ walk straight ahead, but also: ti̍t-ti̍t sán waste away; become thinner over time. This last example shows the "continuously" sense, even if it wasn't listed as a sense in the main entry. Neither of them seem to have ti̍h-ti̍h or tī-tī. Churchman has entries for both ti̍t-ti̍t and ti̍h-ti̍h, both with the characters 直直. Freelance Intellectual (talk) 14:37, 13 March 2022 (UTC)
- @Freelance Intellectual: Thanks a lot! It seems like most of the evidence is pointing to this being 直直, which means we should have the main form at 直直. Perhaps we could still keep 佇佇 as an alternative form, but what do you think? Pinging @The dog2 as well. — justin(r)leung { (t...) | c=› } 21:08, 13 March 2022 (UTC)
- @Justinrleung, Freelance Intellectual: If there's substantial evidence that it was etymologically derived from 直直, then sure, I have no problem with having that as the main form and 佇佇 as an alternative. The dog2 (talk) 21:14, 13 March 2022 (UTC)
- @Justinrleung: @The dog2: That sounds reasonable to me. Freelance Intellectual (talk) 10:50, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
- @Justinrleung, Freelance Intellectual: If there's substantial evidence that it was etymologically derived from 直直, then sure, I have no problem with having that as the main form and 佇佇 as an alternative. The dog2 (talk) 21:14, 13 March 2022 (UTC)
- @Freelance Intellectual: Thanks a lot! It seems like most of the evidence is pointing to this being 直直, which means we should have the main form at 直直. Perhaps we could still keep 佇佇 as an alternative form, but what do you think? Pinging @The dog2 as well. — justin(r)leung { (t...) | c=› } 21:08, 13 March 2022 (UTC)
- @Justinrleung: De Gijzel has continuously tít-tít. Tan has ti̍t-ti̍t straight, with several examples like ti̍t-ti̍t kiâⁿ walk straight ahead, but also: ti̍t-ti̍t sán waste away; become thinner over time. This last example shows the "continuously" sense, even if it wasn't listed as a sense in the main entry. Neither of them seem to have ti̍h-ti̍h or tī-tī. Churchman has entries for both ti̍t-ti̍t and ti̍h-ti̍h, both with the characters 直直. Freelance Intellectual (talk) 14:37, 13 March 2022 (UTC)
- @Freelance Intellectual: Thanks for your input! I wonder if any of the Penang Hokkien dictionaries you have access to include this word in question (either as tī-tī, ti̍h-ti̍h or ti̍t-ti̍t). — justin(r)leung { (t...) | c=› } 23:22, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
- @Justinrleung: @The dog2: I think it's quite likely to etymologically derive from 直直. There are other function words where final stops are often dropped or glotallised in Penang, e.g. ta̍k-ta̍k -> ta̍h-ta̍h "every", and chit-pêng -> chih-pêng "here". Final glottal stops in Hokkien are not always pronounced in sandhi position, and ti̍h-ti̍h/tī-tī generally appears in sandhi position, so I wouldn't read too much into a recording of someone pronouncing it in isolation. On the other hand, 佇/咧 also appears pre-verbally with a similar meaning, so it's quite possible that the two are merging together in Penang. (Taiwan MOE writes 咧 for tih/teh/leh, which probably derives from 佇.) Freelance Intellectual (talk) 19:00, 10 March 2022 (UTC)