Module talk:zh/data/dial-syn/鬧鐘

Philippine Hokkien

@Mlgc1998, Mar vin kaiser I feel like 鐘仔 is a general term for bells (just looking at the doorbell conversation at User talk:Mar vin kaiser). Does this word really belong here? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 15:29, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: For me, no. @Mlgc1998 Are you sure about 鐘仔 being alarm clock? Because your comments say "seems like", which seems to indicate that you're not sure. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 15:36, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser: How would you say "alarm clock" in Philippine Hokkien then? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 15:41, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: To be honest, I don't lol. I would normally say 時鐘 as a general word for clock, though my parents say they sometimes hear people here say 鐘仔 for clock too. I don't think it's in our actively used vocabulary to refer to a specific thing such as an alarm clock. If ever, it would be 鬧鐘 too, pronounced in Hokkien, but no one really say that here, I think. Though I might ask my recent Mainlander immigrant friends if they have a word for it, within our community in the Philippines. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 02:07, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser: So do you think the second definition at 鐘仔 should be "clock" rather than "alarm clock"? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 04:11, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Yeah. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 05:53, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser I was referring to what others in the groupchat recognize, since you didn't wanna join that. At least in my family, 鐘仔 alone refers to an alarm clock, but 時鐘 for clock is more common cuz it's more generic. The dad of one of those I asked was also wondering about 時鐘 referring to watches, so it's likely their generic term for clocks where talking about watches might be more common in his family. I asked my sister and some of the women in the chat if they recognized 鬧鐘, they said it was somewhat familiar but didn't really recognize it as something they normally say. Also @Justinrleung, I'd be wary what @Mar vin kaiser alone considers as "here" cuz it varies per family across the country even if he lives somewhere in the city of Manila, which is only one part of Metro Manila. @Justinrleung Would you like to join our groupchat and/or discord? I've heard you've already met and spoken to one of the people I've been in contact with through discord. There's more people from various parts of the Philippines there, usually from either various parts of Metro Manila, Metro Davao, and some from Metro Cebu, Bacolod, Zamboanga, Bicol region, etc. from millennials, gen Z, and a few gen X and boomer. I'm not even sure if there is also a difference or the extent of which in the Catholic and Protestant Filchi community has for vocabulary, since at one point @Mar vin kaiser also mentioned something about that on social media, but at the very least, what's certain is that each family in the Philippines has varying interspersed perspectives on vocabulary one family recognizes and another doesn't. Many have similarities and differences, one term where two people in two separate families in two separate geographical regions or religious communities share, but is not recognized in another family somewhere else even in the same city, school or church, and then the next day, the next term comes up and that shifts again where previously the two families that shared one vocabulary doesn't anymore and one shares with another. @Mar vin kaiser mentioned before the supposed influence of Xiamen/Amoy Hokkien in some families. This is because old traditional Filchi evangelical protestant churches use Xiamen Hokkien as a sort of high register form in formal Hokkien church services, which they frequently call as "Amoy" alone, so much so that in Protestant Filchi communities of Davao, a few millennials from there told me that many recognize Hokkien there as just "Amoy", if not "Lan-lang-ue" or "Lan-nang-ue" or "Nan-nang-ue", but so far the Filchi I've met from Davao (and other parts of the country) usually trace roots from some part of Quanzhou, if not in Jinjiang or the areas in its vicinity, somewhere in the coastal or highland parts of Nan'an, then there are the few that also have a side of their family tracing roots from Xiamen and a few from Zhangzhou (that are becoming rarer that seem to also have majorly shifted their vocabulary to Quanzhou-based PH Hokkien with a few Zhangzhou pronunciation remnants). PH Hokkien in general, is more commonly used privately within households of each family, with it only being used outside in the community when people do get together to meet in whatever associations, churches, schools, companies/businesses, chamber of commerce, banks, cemetery, or haggling in some retail store business in some bargain mall or side street establishment, so it's bound to be the case that a lot of vocabulary will be sparsely recognized in one family then the other does not, because they don't typically use terms another family would more often use. So what frequently happens is that, especially when there are a lot in the youth who are not fluent native speakers and a lot in the middle-aged and elderly that are not literate in written Hokkien besides either written Mandarin (especially Catholics and some Protestants) or written Amoy Hokkien (especially old traditional Protestants) frequently doing 訓讀, that you frequently get people who speak for their family what is the supposed correct term in PH Hokkien regardless of other families, so I recommend at least that we can join as much groups as we can so we can collaboratively ask and verify with more and more Filchi/Chinoys in the Philippines about what their families recognize rather than just basing on what the few of us in our own immediate environment or family use. There's an increasing amount of people in the Filchi community that are getting to know about or stumbling on Wiktionary and I've personally heard they've sometimes wondered about stuff they come across here, the difference being is that they don't know how to edit or wouldn't bother learning how to do that. Mlgc1998 (talk) 22:34, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

@Mlgc1998: A couple of things:

• The entry in the table labelled as "Philippine-MN" should only be used for Manila (maybe as broad as it can be, but preferably restricted to a smaller area) because the output labels it as "Manila". Other regions in the Philippines could be added to the table if we have the resources.
• About 鐘仔, I think we might need to ask a few more speakers to see what they all think. Do you have any thoughts, @Kamkamkamuti?
• I appreciate your willingness to connect with other speakers to check. This is helpful and makes the documentation more complete. I would be happy to join the Discord (though if there's too much Tagalog, I probably won't understand much). — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 00:16, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

@Justinrleung Don't worry. The discord server includes users from Davao and Cebu, which aren't always comfortable with Tagalog as well (since Cebuano Bisaya is the casual norm in Cebu and half-half Davao Cebuano Bisaya and Tagalog for Davao, but since we don't know any Bisaya in Metro Manila, they won't use it too), so we usually use English for most cases, unless it's just us from Metro Manila. The discord group for Philippine Hokkien is this one, then there's also the Learn Min Languages server, which includes Min speakers from Fujian in China, Taiwan, Philippines, Malaysia, Singapore, Indonesia, with Hokkien from Taiwan and Philippines and Malaysia being the most number of users there, but those from the aformentioned countries are also all there. We have a Philippines lobby there for any sort of Tagalog purposes but we mostly use English or Taglish there anyways. I heard from timotc there that you've spoken with him in the Teochew server. timotc is active there in these discord servers every night at around 7pm GMT+8 in the PH Hokkien server, then around maybe 9pm GMT+8 every Saturday on the voicechat for the Learn Min Languages Server. They try to document their findings in gdocs they make, but they all consult wiktionary too. They just don't know how to edit and have told me they've tried to anonymously edit using VPNs to mask their IP, cuz they saw faulty edits before, like tones. Mlgc1998 (talk) 01:38, 28 November 2021 (UTC)