Reconstruction talk:Proto-Georgian-Zan/šol-
Latest comment: 2 years ago by Vahagn Petrosyan
@Vahagn_Petrosyan, @Fay_Freak: see the forms compared by Chukhua. They look even closer to Semitic. კვარია (talk) 15:53, 14 February 2022 (UTC)
- I guess that means that the Proto-Georgian-Zan term is a Northeast Caucasian borrowing, since Northeast Caucasian preserves a more primitive meaning “branch, bough”, whips being made from branches or boughs primitively. The Semitic terms took a different path then, bypassing the /l/ in Georgian-Zan and hinting at the original meaning in Jewish Literary Aramaic, Jewish Babylonian Aramaic שׁוֹטִיתָא (šōṭīṯā), שׁוֹטְיָא (šōṭəyā, “staff, cane, branch”). Fay Freak (talk) 18:03, 14 February 2022 (UTC)
- I'd say Mingrelian preserves the primitive meaning: see Mingrelian შორტი (šorṭi), შქვერთი (škverti), შორდი (šordi), შვერთი (šverti). If Semitic really has no etymology, this could be some kind of wanderwort. კვარია (talk) 18:17, 14 February 2022 (UTC)
- Right, I can’t really tell what the presence of the liquid in Georgian-Zan and its absence in NEC tells us. But as we see that the bough/branch/wood-strip meanings are more primitive and Mingrelian has them mainly, I reason that they, i.e. something like a long strip or large superficial cut of wood from a branch, were the meaning of the Proto-Georgian-Zan word—if it existed at all. It may of course have been borrowed separately after the proto-stage. The variation within the Kartvelian group may be an argument for this (or not, depending on how regular). You/Kartvelianists only made the proto entry because of the bias of not knowing the word in another language group where it could be native. Fay Freak (talk) 19:41, 14 February 2022 (UTC)
- Georgian შოლტი (šolṭi) ~ Mingrelian შქვერთი (škverti) < შქორთი (škorti) is *perfectly* regular. ტ (ṭ) vs თ (t) isn't a show-stopper at all, in fact it's irrelevant. As for the meaning of "whip" in Proto form, I had to rely on Čuxua for this because Fähnrich never provides the basic meaning of the Proto form itself (which I find really annoying to be honest). I'm open to suggestions though.
- Also if you recall, I was always open to consider this an ancient borrowing during the times of Karto-Zan unity (so ~7th century BC). კვარია (talk) 20:06, 14 February 2022 (UTC)
- I am also inclining to that then. I guess you also find more cognates for our wanderwort reflected as Arabic مِلَاط (milāṭ), @კვარია? The structure is alike and I see no sound swap typical of Semitic here. Fay Freak (talk) 20:38, 14 February 2022 (UTC)
- There is also Akkadian šarāṭu "tear into strips", Arabic شـَرّطَ (šarraṭa, “made it into stripes”), شَرِيط (šarīṭ, “strip”). These seem to be native Semitic. PS. Kvaria, it is not a good idea to create a full entry for each alternative reconstruction. Please use Template:alternative reconstruction of to avoid duplication. Vahag (talk) 19:54, 14 February 2022 (UTC)
- I was going to ask you to merge them anyhow. Personally I prefer Čuxua's reconstruction for this, but Fähnrich is Fähnrich. კვარია (talk) 20:07, 14 February 2022 (UTC)
- @კვარია: I found Laz შორთი (şorti, “şerit, kordon”) in
{{R:lzz:BLS}}
, with a usage example ნჯონი შორთი შორთი შკორუმტეს (nconi şorti şorti şǩorumťes, “they would cut the skin into strips”). A borrowing from Georgian? Vahag (talk) 19:57, 15 July 2022 (UTC)- Perhaps. The თ ~ ტ (t ~ ť) irregularity is already attested in Georgian's supposed Mingrelian cognate and I'm going to assume it can't be from Turkish (← Arabic) due to vocalism. And once again Arabic شَرِيط (šarīṭ) is similar. We should just move Semitic comparisons to this page from OGE. კვარია (talk) 20:25, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
- I have noticed that the alternation of aspirated ~ unaspirated is very irregular in Kartvelian. For example, in ჩლიქი (čliki). Vahag (talk) 13:02, 16 July 2022 (UTC)
- Perhaps. The თ ~ ტ (t ~ ť) irregularity is already attested in Georgian's supposed Mingrelian cognate and I'm going to assume it can't be from Turkish (← Arabic) due to vocalism. And once again Arabic شَرِيط (šarīṭ) is similar. We should just move Semitic comparisons to this page from OGE. კვარია (talk) 20:25, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
- @კვარია: I found Laz შორთი (şorti, “şerit, kordon”) in
- I was going to ask you to merge them anyhow. Personally I prefer Čuxua's reconstruction for this, but Fähnrich is Fähnrich. კვარია (talk) 20:07, 14 February 2022 (UTC)
- Right, I can’t really tell what the presence of the liquid in Georgian-Zan and its absence in NEC tells us. But as we see that the bough/branch/wood-strip meanings are more primitive and Mingrelian has them mainly, I reason that they, i.e. something like a long strip or large superficial cut of wood from a branch, were the meaning of the Proto-Georgian-Zan word—if it existed at all. It may of course have been borrowed separately after the proto-stage. The variation within the Kartvelian group may be an argument for this (or not, depending on how regular). You/Kartvelianists only made the proto entry because of the bias of not knowing the word in another language group where it could be native. Fay Freak (talk) 19:41, 14 February 2022 (UTC)
- I'd say Mingrelian preserves the primitive meaning: see Mingrelian შორტი (šorṭi), შქვერთი (škverti), შორდი (šordi), შვერთი (šverti). If Semitic really has no etymology, this could be some kind of wanderwort. კვარია (talk) 18:17, 14 February 2022 (UTC)