Reconstruction talk:Proto-Kartvelian/ḳatx-

@კვარია I can't imagine separating this from Middle Armenian կթխայ (ktʻxay, “drinking cup, рюмка”), which is from Classical Syriac ܩܕܚܐ (qdḥˀ, “saucer”), which is either borrowed from Arabic قَدَح (qadaḥ) or is its cognate. @Fay Freak is the Syriac word old? --Vahag (talk) 17:47, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

@Vahagn Petrosyan: No, it is borrowed from Arabic, so explicitly Brockelmann, Carl (1928) Lexicon Syriacum (in Latin), 2nd edition, Halle: Max Niemeyer, published 1995, page 646a and often for words only attested in DuvB. I also don’t think that the (anciently frequent) Arabic word is a Kartvelian borrowing, it is probably as قِدْح (qidḥ, “arrow shaft”) from قَدَحَ (qadaḥa, “to drill”), of explained origin, and the similarity thus coincidental. Fay Freak (talk) 17:57, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

OK? Then one'd have to explain the regularly differentiated Mingrelian vocalism as a borrowing from a third source (which?). If this is an ancient Semitism, then one'd have to explain why Kartvelian borrowed /q/ as /ḳ/ rather than /q/ which makes zero sense (also x for ḥ?). კვარია (talk) 18:06, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

@კვარია: That’s even more reason to support the conviction that I have uttered that the similarity is coincidental. Fay Freak (talk) 18:23, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

I was thinking about Semitic borrowing into Proto-Georgian-Zan (Svan being a borrowing) or independently into Old Georgian and Proto-Zan after the breakup (an old borrowing into Proto-Zan would undergo the same change in vocalism, no?). The /ḳ/ and /x/ could be explained by an unattested Old Armenian mediation, where those are the regular reflexes of Semitic /q/ and /ḥ/. But if the Aramaic is not old (and we need Aramaic's final -ā), then my theory does not work. Vahag (talk) 18:26, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

Uh..., Old Armenian mediation for post-breakup Georgian-Zan? That's 7th century BC we're talking about, surely you mean late proto-Armenian (preliterary Armenian? I don't know how you guys call that) Would the Armenian word remain the same between that time and the actual attested language? I think, too many variables to assume ultimate Semitic origin კვარია (talk) 18:39, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

I don't know what to call that period of Armenian. The periodization of Armenian is meaningless. If it was borrowed as *kətʿxay or something like that, it will probably stay the same way until the first accidental attestation in Middle Armenian. Vahag (talk) 19:02, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

If Armenian is without fail from Syriac (I'm assuming it can't be from Georgian due to missing vowel?), then I think similarity is accidental კვარია (talk) 19:17, 19 May 2022 (UTC)