Talk:વડાપ્રધાન
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@DerekWinters Hi, could you look over the quote? —AryamanA (मुझसे बात करें • योगदान) 14:08, 2 December 2017 (UTC)
- @AryamanA Hey, sorry I've been busy all weekend. I looked over the quote at least ten times, and I have to say, it's just quite confusingly written. Also, I'm disappointed with BBC Gujarati, if you notice in the original article, they spell the city મણિનગર sometimes, and મણીનગર sometimes. Consistency is so lacking in spelling so often, it really is just disappointing. DerekWinters (talk) 20:21, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
- @DerekWinters: Oh, so it wasn't just me who found it confusing lol. I've been using BBC Hindi to find words to add and I thought the content was good quality, while not as polished as Dainik Bhaskar. BBC Punjabi also seemed okay, so I just assumed BBC Gujarati would be just as good. I'll stay away from it. —AryamanA (मुझसे बात करें • योगदान) 20:58, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
- @AryamanA: Don't get me wrong, it's quite good in fact, and I would very much use it to obtain words, but I would certainly check with other sources to get the proper spelling. The inconsistency with spelling is a widespread issue in Gujarati, and I'm truly not sure why. I recently saw another BBC Gujarati headline with સંપુર્ણ. -__- DerekWinters (talk) 21:28, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
- @DerekWinters: I think u and ū (and i/ī) are only distinguished by length in Gujarati, whereas in Hindi and Punjabi they are totally different vowels making it more apparent when to use which. Even the Gujarati learning textbooks I've used don't even mark length for those vowels. —AryamanA (मुझसे बात करें • योगदान) 01:08, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
- @AryamanA: Trust me, they are very much different vowels in Gujarati as well, just like in Hindi. DerekWinters (talk) 02:30, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
- @DerekWinters: Why does Gujarati phonology on Wikipedia say "Sanskrit's phonemic vowel length has been lost. Vowels are [only] long when nasalized or in a final syllable" then? The chart also only lists /i/ and /u/. Masica's The Indo-Aryan Languages (awesome book btw) also says Gujarati (along with Marathi) forms a class of eight-vowel systems /i, e, ɛː, ɑ, ə, ɔ, o, u/ as opposed to the "normative NIA system" of ten vowels in Hindi and Punjabi. —AryamanA (मुझसे बात करें • योगदान) 02:52, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
- @AryamanA: This is certainly something I've been trying to change for quite a while, but the literature does say that those are the vowels in Gujarati. However, in the Gujarati I speak and the Gujarati I've heard spoken here in the US, in Mumbai, and in Amdavad, these are not the vowels. /ɪ, i, e, ɑ, ə, o, u, ʊ/ are the vowels. /ɪ/ and /ʊ/ are changed to /i/ and /u/ at the end of words, just as Hindi does. But they very much exist. કૃષ્ણ is /kɾʊʃɳə/, પિત્તળ is /pɪt̪ːəɭ/, etc. Just listen to any Gujarati say ગુજરાતી, it certainly isn't /gudʒ(ə)ɾɑt̪i/. /ɛː/ is at best a marginal phoneme, and generally regarded as just an allophone of /e/, and Gujaratis are notorious for not pronouncing /ɛ(ː)/ from English or Hindi correctly, often saying it as /e/. /ɔ/ is also at best a marginal phoneme, and often, depending on the dialect, an allophone of /o/ or /ɑ/ (in what I often stereotype as "village" Gujarati, પાણી is /pɔɳi/). In my variety, a few words have /ɔ/ as an independent phoneme: ત્રણ (/t̪ɾɔɳ/) are coming to mind ગોળ (jaggery, /gɔɭ/). I have heard some people pronounce કોણ as /kɔɳ/. In one of the books I read in the library on campus, there was on one page, a list of those 8 vowels (/i, e, ɛː, ɑ, ə, ɔ, o, u/), but then on the next page, I remember there being a description breaking down i and u into "i and I, u and U" with examples in English (like the i in pit vs the i and peat) given after. But yes, listen to some spoken Gujarati and you'll hear the vowel differences. DerekWinters (talk) 06:32, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
- I am just amazed by this discussion. So much to learn about the language I speak. --Nizil Shah (talk) 06:17, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
- @AryamanA: This is certainly something I've been trying to change for quite a while, but the literature does say that those are the vowels in Gujarati. However, in the Gujarati I speak and the Gujarati I've heard spoken here in the US, in Mumbai, and in Amdavad, these are not the vowels. /ɪ, i, e, ɑ, ə, o, u, ʊ/ are the vowels. /ɪ/ and /ʊ/ are changed to /i/ and /u/ at the end of words, just as Hindi does. But they very much exist. કૃષ્ણ is /kɾʊʃɳə/, પિત્તળ is /pɪt̪ːəɭ/, etc. Just listen to any Gujarati say ગુજરાતી, it certainly isn't /gudʒ(ə)ɾɑt̪i/. /ɛː/ is at best a marginal phoneme, and generally regarded as just an allophone of /e/, and Gujaratis are notorious for not pronouncing /ɛ(ː)/ from English or Hindi correctly, often saying it as /e/. /ɔ/ is also at best a marginal phoneme, and often, depending on the dialect, an allophone of /o/ or /ɑ/ (in what I often stereotype as "village" Gujarati, પાણી is /pɔɳi/). In my variety, a few words have /ɔ/ as an independent phoneme: ત્રણ (/t̪ɾɔɳ/) are coming to mind ગોળ (jaggery, /gɔɭ/). I have heard some people pronounce કોણ as /kɔɳ/. In one of the books I read in the library on campus, there was on one page, a list of those 8 vowels (/i, e, ɛː, ɑ, ə, ɔ, o, u/), but then on the next page, I remember there being a description breaking down i and u into "i and I, u and U" with examples in English (like the i in pit vs the i and peat) given after. But yes, listen to some spoken Gujarati and you'll hear the vowel differences. DerekWinters (talk) 06:32, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
- @DerekWinters: Why does Gujarati phonology on Wikipedia say "Sanskrit's phonemic vowel length has been lost. Vowels are [only] long when nasalized or in a final syllable" then? The chart also only lists /i/ and /u/. Masica's The Indo-Aryan Languages (awesome book btw) also says Gujarati (along with Marathi) forms a class of eight-vowel systems /i, e, ɛː, ɑ, ə, ɔ, o, u/ as opposed to the "normative NIA system" of ten vowels in Hindi and Punjabi. —AryamanA (मुझसे बात करें • योगदान) 02:52, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
- @AryamanA: Trust me, they are very much different vowels in Gujarati as well, just like in Hindi. DerekWinters (talk) 02:30, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
- @DerekWinters: I think u and ū (and i/ī) are only distinguished by length in Gujarati, whereas in Hindi and Punjabi they are totally different vowels making it more apparent when to use which. Even the Gujarati learning textbooks I've used don't even mark length for those vowels. —AryamanA (मुझसे बात करें • योगदान) 01:08, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
- @AryamanA: Don't get me wrong, it's quite good in fact, and I would very much use it to obtain words, but I would certainly check with other sources to get the proper spelling. The inconsistency with spelling is a widespread issue in Gujarati, and I'm truly not sure why. I recently saw another BBC Gujarati headline with સંપુર્ણ. -__- DerekWinters (talk) 21:28, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
- @DerekWinters: Oh, so it wasn't just me who found it confusing lol. I've been using BBC Hindi to find words to add and I thought the content was good quality, while not as polished as Dainik Bhaskar. BBC Punjabi also seemed okay, so I just assumed BBC Gujarati would be just as good. I'll stay away from it. —AryamanA (मुझसे बात करें • योगदान) 20:58, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
- @Nizil Shah તમને શું લાગે? ગુજરાતમાં ક્યાં ક્યાં લોકો 'ઑ' સ્વર વાપરે? હું ત્રણ 'ત્રૉણ' બોલું, ગોળ (શેરડીમાંથી) 'ગૉળ' બોલું, અને સોંપવું 'સૉંપવું' બોલું. અને ગરબાના ગીતો કે લોકગીતોમાં 'પૉણી' (પાણી), કે પૉંજરું (પાંજરું) ઇત્યાદિ સાંભળવું બહુ મળે. 'ઍ' સ્વર બહુ ગુજરાતી શબ્દોમાં જોવા નથી મળતું, પણ તમને શું લાગે? અને, અહિંનો ખાસ સવાલ, 'ઇ' અને 'ઈ' વચ્ચે કાઈ ફરક છે, અને 'ઉ' અને 'ઊ' વચ્ચે? DerekWinters (talk) 07:59, 8 January 2018 (UTC)