Talk:拍衰

Definition

@Mlgc1998 My dad says this means someone wishing someone ill, like causing someone bad luck, for example, if you tell someone that he'll definitely fail the exam tomorrow, and you tell them not to "phah-sue" me. Mar vin kaiser (talk) 01:04, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser what about it? Mlgc1998 (talk) 01:06, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

@Mlgc1998: It's different from the definition you placed here, which is "to have bad luck". My dad said that that's not what this word means. So I wanted to confirm with you that the definition you put is what your source understands the definition to be. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 01:36, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser The sample sentence you mentioned is still about having them have bad luck. This word isn't just necessarily about someone else getting the bad luck. One could also say, guá phah-sue--lo! to mean that "I got unlucky!" or are in some sort of state of bad luck. What sort of definition wording do you have in mind anyways? Mlgc1998 (talk) 01:46, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

@Mlgc1998: That was my point. My dad said "guá phah-sue--lo" is wrong. So the definition my dad knows is different from what you wrote down here, so I just wanna solve this mystery. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 01:49, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser what does he mean by that then? which part is supposed to be wrong for him? The English wording to describe Hokkien line of thinking won't always necessarily have an exact one-to-one correspondence depending on how concepts are formed in each language or cuz the grammar of one of the languages would make the literal meanings awkward to describe. Mlgc1998 (talk) 01:54, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

@Mlgc1998: Based on what he told me, "phah-sue" is causing someone bad luck, which would be a transitive verb, X causing Y bad luck. Whereas the definition you put is more like an intransitive verb, of person X "having bad luck", so my dad says the "having bad luck" definition is wrong, he says that's not what the word means.

And to me, his explanation makes sense. Because in Hokkien, we have words like 拍歹 and 拍破 that are also transitive verbs. That's why I'm doubtful that the definition you put is correct. I think it should be "to cause someone bad luck". Could you check your sources (the people you ask)? Thanks. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 04:16, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Just to be clear, he's saying that "guá phah-sue--lo" is a wrong sentence, a wrong usage of the word "phah-sue". --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 04:17, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser What is an example sentence or phrase of a supposed "right" usage of that for your dad? I remember my dad before said something like "dí phah-sue--lo." means you've contracted bad luck now, which people in the groupchat discussed something about that term as well before I asked my parents. The 拍破 phah-phuà that I've heard of as well can also be used both transitively and intransitively based on the sentence and context like, tsit-gé phah-phuà--lo. Mlgc1998 (talk) 05:41, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

@Mlgc1998: The example my dad used is "Lí m̄-thang phah-sue--guá hóⁿ." Something like that. Like when someone says you'll definitely fail in what you're doing, you're telling that person not to jinx me. That would be a nice translation, to "jinx" someone."

For me, "tsit-gé phah-phuà--lo" sounds wrong, I would say perhaps "Tsit-gé khì phah-phuà--lo" or "Tsit-gé khì hō-lâng phah-phuà--lo", both of which would be in the passive form. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 14:39, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser What I remember hearing of before is "m̄-thang phah-sue kāi-kī" and "dí mang phah-sue lâng" and "lâng phah-sue--lo, dí (blablabla)" or "lâng ǔ phah-sue, dí mang (blablabla)". Then, phah-phuà, "tsit-gé phah-phuà--lo" or "tsit-gé ǔ phah-phuà--lo" are what I've heard of before. "tsit-gé khì phah-phuà--lo" sounds to me like "this is going to break already" rather than "this is broken already". Then, "phah-phái" I only remember hearing in phrases where it almost always have khì at the end like "dí phah-phái khì tsit-gé, (blablabla)". The difference tho is that 拍破 and 拍歹 refers to objects, but 拍衰 affects people, so it's a little awkward to compare how they're used. The definition wording I have in mind is like "to have one contract bad luck" or "to fall into misfortune", cuz it's like malas where contracting it is like a disease of either short or long term nature, where it's uncertain how one is to not have it, since it's not a ball one can voluntarily throw out once you have it. Mlgc1998 (talk) 15:43, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

@Mlgc1998: Yeah, I just realized your sentences can be ergative. The same way we say "Tsuí lim liaú--lo.", the water didn't finish drinking, but the water is now finished. Same with "Saⁿ sué liaú--bē?". So combining all the example sentences we provided, the more logical definition of "phah-sue" is "to cause someone bad luck", and not "to have bad luck", since your sentences like "lâng phah-sue--lo" makes sense in an ergative sense, same as the examples I gave. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 06:51, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser doesn't have to be "someone", just "one" will do, since you can accidentally phah-sue kāi-kī. like "to cause one to fall into misfortune" Mlgc1998 (talk) 12:57, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

@Mlgc1998: All verbs in general can be directed to oneself. You can hit someone, feed someone, hug someone, see someone, but you can also hit yourself, feed yourself, hug yourself, see yourself. So the word "someone" can also refer to oneself. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 06:37, 7 June 2024 (UTC)