Talk:Toskana

@Astova, Fytcha Let's please not distort entries by putting obsolete usages first or stuffing them into the headword. Duden, dewikt and consistent usage in the German Wikipedia (among others) show that modern usage of Toskana is feminine and with a definite article. I searched for Toskanas in Google Books and all examples I found are from the 1800's or early 1900's at the latest. There are plenty of examples of des heutigen Toskana (all again from the 1800's) that IMO show that obsolete usage without the article and with genitive Toskanas was neuter, not feminine, consistent with other neuter toponyms. I converted this into a usage note, which I think is enough. Benwing2 (talk) 06:34, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

@Benwing2, Fytcha: The inflection (gen. -s for proper nouns like Türkei, Ukraine, Toskana, Sahara) is still used in 20th and 21st century, and they can also be found near the feminine:

• Allgemeines Statistisches Archiv: 33. Band, 1949, p. 554: "Die äußerste Nordwestspitze Toskanas, die Insel Elba,"
• Das Alte Reich, 2nd ed. 2005 (orig. 1997) p. 358f.: "Weder von einer Abhängigkeit Toskanas von Rom noch von einer Souveränität könne die Rede sein.", "was der Kaiser über die Toskana beschließe", "seine Tocher zur Erbin Toskanas", "auf Toskana", "für Toskana", "als Ausgleich ... die Toskana erhalten"
• Leibniz als Reichshofrat, 2016, p. 205: "die Lehensabhängigkeit Toskanas vom Reich", "als Nachfolger in der Toskana"
• Die Toskana lieben lernen, 2020: "Toskanas bedeutendste Städte" und "Hauptstadt der Toskana".

Gen. -s for feminines isn't unusual (cp. Mutters, Omas, Andreas).

--Astova (talk) 08:18, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

@Astova: I too think the nonstandard gender/inflection is in this case better placed under the usage notes rather than in the headword, and even if we decided to put them in the headword, they should obviously come after the feminine one, not before; everything else is misleading. I appreciate your determination to document rare and/or nonstandard genders and inflections, but as I told you in Alemannic German Zit, I think we should present those findings in a non-misleading way that gives clear precedence to the modern standard usage. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 13:49, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Gen. -s (together with the feminine) is standard and common and modern. Other examples: "Toskanas Stadt der Türme" + " in der Toskana", "durch die schöne Landschaft Toskanas", "in der Toskana" + "Sandstrände Toskanas" . Also, what does "usually definite" mean? It implies it's "unusally indefinite", and how does it then inflect? --Astova (talk) 14:05, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

F. gen. -s is nonstandard if used with an article; your headword made no such distinction; see e.g. how Oma is formatted. But okay, a properly qualified Toskanas may be worthy of being included in the headword.

I understand "usually definite" to mean that forms like "eine Toskana", albeit grammatical and sensible given the right context, are comparatively rare. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 14:18, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

@Astova, Fytcha I am 99% sure that contrary to your assertions above, the use of "Toskanas" is relatively rare. Google Ngrams agrees: [1] where "der Toskana" is > 100x more common than "Toskanas". I'm also not super-convinced that "Toskanas" near the feminine article proves that "Toskanas" is feminine, although I may be wrong here. I'd like to see an example with a preceding article or adjective to prove this. BTW "Usually definite" means just what it says: that in common usage, it co-occurs with a definite article. Rivers behave this way in German (and English), as do certain countries like die Schweiz. An exact parallel occurs in English with the country "the Gambia". Just because it's possible to say "my Gambia" or "a new Gambia" doesn't negate the fact that the country normally co-occurs with a definite article. As Fytcha notes, usages without the definite article in such cases are comparatively rare. Benwing2 (talk) 06:43, 5 March 2022 (UTC)