Talk:défonçeuse

Misspelling

"Défonçeuse" does not exist in French. There is no need of a cedilla; the correct spelling is "défonceuse" (fr). 92.184.104.66 22:05, 7 May 2022 (UTC)

The spelling with the cedilla passes our attestation standards: [1]. But it appears to be a less common, perhaps dated, form. 70.172.194.25 22:13, 7 May 2022 (UTC)

Then this should be defined as a "rare misspelling of défonceuse" and the main/correct page should be created and used instead (e.g. as the translation of router). In modern French (in the broad sense = since more than two centuries), the cedilla in only used when the "c" would otherwise be pronounced "k", i.e. when the "c" precedes a "a", a "o" or a "u".

Moreover the "Further reading" section is irrelevant and misleading as the TLFi article never mentions "défonçeuse" (with a cedilla). 92.184.104.66 22:49, 7 May 2022 (UTC)

Done, but can you please check the definitions too?

• TLFi gives "Puissante charrue utilisée pour défoncer une terre cultivable."
• fr.wiktionary gives two definitions, one of them router (woodworking tool), the other, "ripeur" (fr) which they translate as "ripper" (en), seems like it may be the same as the TLFi one.
• We only gave router as a definition previously. I added "ripper (heavy machinery)" based on the definition and image on fr.wiktionary, fr:ripper.

Most of the uses I found seemed to be about an agricultural tool for breaking up land, roots, etc., which fits the TLFi sense. 70.172.194.25 02:06, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

Thank you, but I'm still not satisfied: I'm still opposed to calling a misspelling a "non standard spelling" like you did. And an archaic one needs to be supported with a proof like an entry in a old dictionary / encyclopedia.

In French (my mother tongue) a c-cedilla before a "e" makes no sense. Thus, "...çe..." is against a well-established spelling rule which have absolutely NO exception in French. There are a lot of words with alternate spellings, a lot of words with a disputed spelling, a lot of words with a non-standard spelling (often jargon words spoken and then written long before an official spelling is chosen). I know when a word belongs to one of these categories and "défonçeuse" is not one, this is nothing but an error (BTW, that is why "La défonçeuse numérique démystifiée" which is one of your gbooks search result, is not actually written with a cedilla).

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Note: for a long time, until the 16th or 17th century I think, there was no established spelling for many French words. Moreover, with books, space constraints led to many alternate spellings (word shortenings). Therefore, I can only speak about the modern word, not about "défonçeuse" that would be found in pre-XVIIth-century books (in that case, I believe that such a spelling would belong to a "middle French" section).

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As for the definitions:

• Nowadays, the most common use is for the woodtool (which is quite recent I believe). Here is the the French WP entry.
• I don't know much about agriculture but the tool actually exists, and might be translated to "ripper machine" (? I don't really know). This is probably the most common use of "défonceuse" one century ago. Here is the the French WP entry.
• I don't know much about construction engines either, but an engine similar to this agriculture machine is also used for public works and is sometimes called "défonceuse" (ripper). That would be what you see on this picture, or at the left on this picture (only one ripper tooth).

92.184.107.58 12:40, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

Following everything I said above, I changed the pages accordingly, stating that "défonçeuse" is a misspelling. Note that this is even not a common misspelling and should not be included here according to Wiktionary:Misspellings.

A much much more common misspelling in French is to forget the diacritics, and if this entry is legit, then we should add a page for every French word without one or all its diacritics (déçu => décu, deçu, decu) and tag them as misspellings. That would be silly. 92.184.107.58 13:23, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

If you're sure it would have even been considered a misspelling back when the 1800s quotes were written, then I'm fine with the label. If there was no standardized spelling at the time, then I think it should be considered an obsolete spelling in the context of those texts, but a misspelling in the context of a modern text. As far as I can tell, it's not used in texts prior to 1610, so it's not Middle French.

Anyway, I'm not too nitpicky about which phrase we use, and will not argue the point further, so if you have a strong preference for "misspelling" that seems reasonable to me. (As long as it's consistent with how we use the two labels on other French entries.) I'm more concerned with getting the definitions right. What you wrote above is helpful in that regard and maybe I'll look into it later (or you can change the definitions yourself if desired).

FWIW, the form with the cedilla appears in this 1981 English–French dictionary of industrial terms under both "rooter" and "ripper": [2]. I assume it was already against established spelling conventions by then, however. 70.172.194.25 15:13, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

I'm positive it was a misspelling long before 1800. One must first understand what problem the c-cedilla is supposed to solve. A written "ce" (resp. "ci" / "cy") has always been pronounced se (resp. si). There is no need to resort to any diacritic or any other writing trick for "ce". You can see this in texts dating back from the first millennium.

The problem lies with written "ca", "co" and "cu" which have always been pronounced ka, ko and ku => how to write a "c" that the reader is supposed to pronounce "s" instead of "k"?

For example, take "françois" (old adjective for "French"). Before its spelling stabilized, to solve the issue with "francois", some wrote it "franceois", "francsois" or "franczois". Then "cz" became a tiny "z" written below the "c", which eventually turned into what we know as the cedilla.

The cedilla was only invented for "ca" pronounced "sa" (like ça), for "co" pronounced "so" (like suçoter, balançoire or garçon) and for "cu" pronounced "su" (like déçu). It has never been needed for "ce", "ci" or "cy". This is attested by the 1st edition of the Dictionnaire de l'Académie Française (1694):

C: (...) Il y a deux prononciations différentes : devant A, O et U elle se prononce comme le Cappa des Grecs, ou comme notre K, si ce n'est quand on met dessous une petite virgule qu'on nomme cédille car alors il se prononce comme une S (...) mais devant l'E et l'I il se prononce toujours comme une S

As for the "Misspelling" tag, it is consistent with the first two words of your list: arithmetique and arreter (but like I said, forgetting diacritics is far more common than adding some where they are not needed). Also, keep in mind that such mistakes might have been deliberate due to technical constraints: some centuries ago, some small printing companies did not have an unlimited number of each character, and sometimes they had to use "ç" when all the "c" were used, especially when there was no possible misreading ("...çeuse" can only be read like "ceuse", the cedilla adds nothing).

Good catch for the "1981 English–French dictionary" but unfortunately, I do not have access to the book pictures, so I can only speculate (mistake? stain mark?). Thanks for your research, anyway. 92.184.107.64 21:22, 8 May 2022 (UTC)