Talk:nafta

RFV discussion: December 2022

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nafta

Czech. Rfv-sense:petroleum Originally just deleted by @Jankratochvil, but was added by Dan Polansky back when the entry was first made, a native speaker of Czech. Perhaps there was a miscommunication between the types of fuels, however, it's better to send this page through the process instead of just deleting a sense without making sure. Vininn126 (talk) 11:47, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

I am sure also native speaker, living in Czech for 44 years (except for about 2 years abroad). nafta is always just diesel, nothing else. There can be some variants of nafta like bionafta with mixed agricultural products to save some crude oil (and clog the motors with that mud), agricultural nafta with some state subsidies for tractors etc. nafta can never be a gasoline. The question is what is "refined petroleum", from all the products listed on this page just the #2 = diesel can be called nafta, others have always its specific Czech name (1=benzín, 2=nafta, 3=lehký topný olej, 4=letecký benzín, 5=topný olej? (but I always heard only "lehký topný olej"), 6=asfalt, 7=propan&butan, 8=lubrikační oleje etc., 9=dunno/odpad=trash) Jankratochvil (talk) 04:37, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

@Jankratochvil I do not doubt your nativeness. The problem with that argument is that often we are able to cite definitions according to our WT:CFI that are unknown by even most native speakers. The issue we need here is 3 quotes in materials that can support a definition. Vininn126 (talk) 00:38, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

@Jankratochvil, Vininn126: Hell, just use logics—don’t forgot diachrony. This word is older than diesel. So naturally just finding any 19th-century Czech use, some of which I have in front of my eyen, means rock-oil, as in the other languages having this word, but I can’t be bothered to read into Czech chemical details to add quotes for so frivolous a request. So it appears the record sheet of a 100-years-old historical dictionary defines it as not diesel but petroleum. Fay Freak (talk) 01:38, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

@Fay Freak: I believe Wiktionary should describe the current language, not a historical language. I have found an official definition where they state "geological" and "chemical" meaning to be crude oil ("ropa") although this is the first time I hear it that way. The normal/common meaning of "diesel" they describe as "chemical" meaning. Both this official definition and cs.wikipedia definition of "ropa"="crude oil" say "crude nafta"(="surová nafta") also means a crude oil (probably, I do not know it that way but why not). From this analysis could we:

1. Change "petroleum (refined)" to "crude oil" as I do not see anywhere it could mean "petrolej"(="petroleum").
2. Put there some marker this meaning is uncommon/rare/chemical/geological/historical? It is not understood that way by normal people.

Jankratochvil (talk) 02:58, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

@Jankratochvil: Putting markers is exactly what we engage in—describing historical language, which we totally do, since there is no limit in space. Looking forward for you to make great additions to our Czech historical vocabulary! Fay Freak (talk) 03:07, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

Well we do allow for historical definitions! If you would like to start a discussion at the WT:BP explaining why you believe we shouldn't, you have that right. Unfortunately and honestyl I think that is not going to be met with much support. But our current policy is that if a definition has at least 3 uses (for WT:WDLs, then the definition should be listed. Also we don't add blindly from "official" dictionaries, often they have so-called ghost words or are wrong.

I agree that the label should be added, it might "dated"/"archaic" or "obsolete" depending on its last use, we'd need a corpus to see. Vininn126 (talk) 11:27, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

I wanted to do put there at least dated but I see @Fay Freak has been faster with archaic which I find more appropriate. I was trying to find some glossary term like "scientific" but I haven't found such. Therefore it is done, thanks for the instruction on making Wiktionary. Jankratochvil (talk) 08:36, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

RFV passed. Vininn126 (talk) 08:42, 30 December 2022 (UTC)