Template talk:U:hu:conj-ta

-ata, -ete

@Adam78 I think -ata/-ete is possible in words like hallata/kellete. Both are included in "A magyar nyelv értelmező szótára." Panda10 (talk) 17:45, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

@Adam78 Maybe I was too quick to respond and act. Upon further research, I have second thoughts. It seems that the nouns hallat (hallás - hearing) and kellet (kényszerűség, szükség(szerűség)) did exist according to the Új magyar etimológiai szótár (see at hall and kell). So then there is no -ata/-ete, not to mention that I can't find other examples for this suffix. I can make the corrections if you agree. Panda10 (talk) 21:15, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

@Panda10: Do you mean that hallata/hallatán would derive from the obsolete noun hallat and kellete/kelleténél would derive from the uncommon noun kellet? I'm not sure it's a good idea; even ÚESz. notes that kellet is used "[főleg birtokos személyjellel]". If a form like hallatán, kelleténél is commonly used these days, they cannot be forms of obsolete nouns: either this, or that piece of information is wrong. Hallat and kellet as such are not defined in Magyar értelmező kéziszótár (2003), while hallata and kellete both are, as "szjeles fn". I still think that the primary etymologies should be from hall, kell, based on Occam's razor (not including obsolete forms that are unknown to present-day speakers), and if you like, there may be secondary etymologies (displayed as "equivalent to") referring to the barely known, barely existing nouns hallat, kellet. Adam78 (talk) 21:32, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

@Adam78 I don't want to be a nitpicker. We can leave them as they are now. But there are several currently used Hungarian words that are derived from obsolete terms: tető from tetik, alkalom from alk, egyenetlen from egyen, etc. That kellete is a "szjeles fn" means to me that it is derived from the noun kellet with a possessive suffix. And I have to say (although this is not part of this subject) that lately I have some misgivings about Hungarian etymologies, seeing that anyone with an IP address or a red link user name can make numerous serious changes despite the provided reference link. Panda10 (talk) 23:28, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

@Panda10 Tető, alkalom, and egyenetlen are not POS forms but new and distinct lemmas on their own. On the other hand, hallata should be a form of hallat, if I understand you correctly. Anyway, let's display both derivations, and everybody can choose whichever they prefer.

I think it's a good clue that the resulting forms have the same semantic features as the ones derived with -ta/-te, so e.g. hallatán is not like varratán (from varrat) but it behaves like láttán, being an action noun. Kelleténél is also an action noun, just like tudtával, and unlike bérleténél (from bérlet).

We might as well approach edits you mention like this: as long as they don't delete or distort existing claims and their references, they might be allowed to add other etymologies as well if it's supported by actual sources and it's tenable. I don't have much experience with patrolling though, so I may miss the point, being too naïve. Adam78 (talk) 00:07, 26 February 2023 (UTC)