Catalan verb morphology: other dialects

Hello,

I was wondering if you had plans in mind to cover the verb morphology of other Catalan dialects. I'm not necessarily requesting that you do anything about it, but since this seems to be your domain, I thought I might as well start talking to you about it, in case I or someone else might wish to take a stab at it sometime.

At the very least, the basics of Standard Valencian should get some sort of coverage; it's more or less like this (I may be missing a few things):

• -e rather than -o for first-person singular indicative
  • jo parle
• -isc rather than -eix for the first person singular indicative of the inchoatives and -isc as the base for most of their subjunctive forms
  • jo preferisc ... jo/ell preferisca
• Lack of marking for first-person singular in the indicative for verbs like sentir and rebre
  • jo sent, jo rep
• -ra- imperfect subjunctives (that more or less resemble the typical preterite endings) in addition to the normal ones
  • jo/ell parlara in addition to jo/ell parlés
• e rather than i in the first-conjugation present subjunctives, a rather than i in the first- and third-person singular forms of third-conjugation verbs and e rather than i in the second-person singular and third-person plural of such verbs, a rather than i in the first- and third-person singular forms of second-conjugation verbs, and e rather than i for the remaining forms in second-conjugation verbs
  • jo/ell parle, jo/ell preferisca ... nosaltres preferim ... ells preferisquen , jo/ell incloga ... tu inclogues ... ells incloguen
• Preference for different models for various verbs, such as llegir
  • jo/ell llig rather than jo llegisc and ell llegix/llegeix (though also valid), ...

Though, the AVL permits many variant forms and this may prevent us from simply shoving everything in the existing tables, depending on what we may wish to show and represent:

• Inchoative -ix or -eix (both variants included in their tables)
• Variant and classical forms (some included in the tables, others relegated to the notes beneath the tables)
  • jo faç (classical 1st. pres. ind. form) (in table) and jo lligc (in notes only)
• Regional forms (notes)
  • First-person singular indicative -o rather than -e/0 from the northern Valencian dialects (jo parlo, jo llijo, ...)
• Very formal present subjunctives/imperatives and first-person singular indicatives (only present in the inchoatives, I think; notes)
  • jo preferesc ... jo/ell preferesca

(I'll throw up some sample tables in userspace, if you want)

Finally, for words such as tenir and venir, the AVL prefers the -dre variants, having the -ir forms merely link to the -dre forms. What exactly should we do about this?

I myself think it would be best if we had a table for each dialect to help reduce confusion as much as possible, to allow the inclusion of as many forms as possible, and to make things easier for peripheral dialects that may deviate even more from Standard Central Catalan than does Standard Valencian. I would indeed eventually like to have the more peripheral dialects represented, but sadly, I cannot discuss them just yet... except maybe for Algherese since I have some materials for it (though, I'm still rather hesitant...).

What do you think?

Thanks.

I have thought about this before. Standard Valencian should certainly be included. I'm a bit more hesitant about other forms... if we start adding too many, the table will become an unreadable mess like the ones at the Catalan Wiktionary. So let's look at adding standard Valencian first, and once that's done we can review.

Two tables seems like a good idea, at least for the two standard forms. Not sure how to handle dialectal forms; creating tables for every possible variation would just result in massive numbers of tables. Again, another reason to start with standard forms first and then reevaluate.

Right, anything but that mess... that's more or less why I proposed tables for each dialect.

Depending on how we do things, I don't think having a table for each dialect group would be too much. Though, I think we might need to have multiple tables for a single dialect group for some verbs (such as llegir), and if we need to do that for multiple dialect groups, then things will likely get out of hand very easily...

But indeed, let's take care of Valencian before considering the other groups. I'll work on some tables in userspace and show you the results when I'm done.

How does that sound?

Keep in mind that the current tables are mostly Lua based. So you should probably copy Module:ca-verb to your userspace. Then you can modify it to show AVL forms instead of IEC forms. Once that's done, I can see if I can merge your table into the existing module.

Right.

I was just gonna manually fill in some tables, but I guess that's a better idea.

I manually created a theoretical maximal table so that I'll have a reference when I get to tinkering with the module; please tell me what you think of it: User:Espreon/llegir-valencian-test.

Do you think I should separate the -r and the -s imperfect subjunctives like that, as is done with their Spanish equivalents on this site, or do you think I should collapse them into a single row? For ser, at least, the -r forms can also act as conditionals, so maybe it would be best to have them separated.

I'm not sure. My hope was that we could simply reuse the existing table, and only change the forms that go in it.

Well, can't we just use conditionals to manipulate what gets "printed"?

Yes, we can. It's just not as neat that way.

Hmm, all right, I'll see what I can do. I don't imagine it would be too atrocious, but truth be told, it's been quite a while since I've tinkered with Lua, so who knows?

Regardless, though, this is still something I myself would like to attempt.