Talk:autonomous oblast

Deletion debate

The following information passed a request for deletion.

This discussion is no longer live and is left here as an archive. Please do not modify this conversation, but feel free to discuss its conclusions.

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autonomous oblast

Like the definition says, an oblast that's autonomous. Mglovesfun (talk) 14:13, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Delete. I have a notion that the Russian term may have a specific legal meaning that merits retention, but I doubt if there is sufficient English literature on the pertinent Russian/Soviet law for that to apply to this term as well (and if it did, it would probably apply only to the capitalized version). -- Visviva 16:56, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

If the CFI doesn't have a clause for including a term because it sounds too awesome to delete then we are doing this all wrong. - [The]DaveRoss 17:01, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Ok, delete if you insist. I don't see any harm in the entry, though. Yes, legally an autonomous oblast is different from other federal subjects. I made sure there will be no impact on Jewish Autonomous Oblast entry, the only autonomous oblast in Russia - other federal subjects are called differently, among them - autonomous republic, oblast, kray. --Anatoli 00:47, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

Delete Direct SOP translation of SOP Russian автономная область (avtonomnaja oblast’). —Michael Z. 2010-05-31 01:30 z

keep: it's a word (in the linguistic sense of word), because it's a set phrase specifically used to to something (it's not possible to replace autonomous by a synonym). It's exactly the same case as commune, except that it contains a space, or district attorney. Lmaltier 06:04, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

Wouldn't "self-governing oblast" have the same signification? -- Visviva 19:20, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

Keep. This is not a SoP: Russian автономная область (avtonomnaja oblastʹ) had a specific legal meaning in the Soviet law; so does it's English translation. And there is a sufficient English literature on the pertinent law, conditioned by the fact that many AO's (such as Nagorno-Karabakh Autonomous Oblast and South Ossetian Autonomous Oblast) declared independence, fought wars and generated a lot of press and legal debate since the collapse of the USSR. See also the citations I added. --Vahagn Petrosyan 09:32, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

Keep The word is attestable and clearly not SoP. The uſer hight Bogorm converſation 09:11, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

Keep as cited. -- Visviva 16:35, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

Actually now I'm less sure. The definition still doesn't specify any particular meaning in Soviet law; it simply boils down to "an oblast that is autonomous." I have no particular reason to doubt that this has a non-compositional meaning, but the definition as written does not explain that meaning. -- Visviva 19:20, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

I rewrote the definition. It still needs improvement but at least now it does not say "autonomous oblast is an oblast that is autonomous". The connection between autonomous oblast and oblast is etymological, not legal. The legally defined administrative divisions of the USSR were union republic, autonomous republic, oblast, autonomous oblast, autonomous okrug. --Vahagn Petrosyan 10:32, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Now you've written an encyclopedia article. You've written why, when, and for whom the referent was created, but said nothing lexicological about the phrase. The previous definition was better (funny: w: autonomous oblast has a dictionary definition: “An autonomous oblast is an autonomous entity within the state which is on the oblast (province) level of the overall administrative subdivision.”). —Michael Z. 2010-06-03 19:24 z

By the way, autonomous oblasts are apparently also of Russia ,Yugoslavia, Croatia, and Bosnia–Herzegovina. Regarding the list of “Derived terms,” shall I start RFDing this gazetteer list right away? —Michael Z. 2010-06-03 19:29 z

I don't find the new definition encyclopedic in itself: it could have been the sense. But the actual sense seems to be less precise, and I suggest to use the Wikipedia definition. Note that it's quite normal that Wikipedia has a dictionary definition: the definition is (or should be) the only common part between a language dictionary entry and an encyclopedia entry. Lmaltier 19:39, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, but with a bit of copy-editing improvement, that definition will be back to “an oblast that is autonomous.” It's an SOP term, and the best definition is the term itself. Even if we choose to include it for whatever reason, it's a disservice to the readers to tart up (i.e. obscure) the language just to pretend it's not SOP. —Michael Z. 2010-06-04 21:27 z

Kept.​—msh210℠ (talk) 17:44, 1 September 2010 (UTC)