Talk:running on empty
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The following discussion has been moved from Wiktionary:Requests for moves, mergers and splits (permalink).
This discussion is no longer live and is left here as an archive. Please do not modify this conversation, but feel free to discuss its conclusions.
This is listed as a verb. It should probably be run on empty in that case. Astral (talk) 04:38, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
- Move, though maybe even on empty. Only maybe. Mglovesfun (talk) 11:21, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
- On empty seems better, but empty might be better yet. For example "running on the smell of an oily rag" is a near synonym, which suggests that there is/should be an applicable sense of (deprecated template usage) on. DCDuring TALK 12:39, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
- The trouble with the way smell of an oily rag has been defined, as a noun rather than an adverb, is that it suggests usages like "I used a smell of an oily rag of salt in the sauce" are acceptable. I foresee the same issue with empty, so on empty strikes me as preferable. Astral (talk) 17:19, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
- We already have "12. Indicating a means of subsistence. : They lived on ten dollars a week; The dog survived three weeks on rainwater".—msh210℠ (talk) 17:36, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
- On empty seems better, but empty might be better yet. For example "running on the smell of an oily rag" is a near synonym, which suggests that there is/should be an applicable sense of (deprecated template usage) on. DCDuring TALK 12:39, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
- @Astral: how's this? Of course, it's silly to define 'smell of an oily rag as 'in the phrase "on smell of an oily rag"...'. If no other preposition can precede it, I'd favor a move to run on the smell of an oily rag or on the smell of an oily rag (and I'd prefer run on empty or on empty to empty). Yes, "on" "indicates a means of subsistence", and run on means "operate with a particular energy source", but the idiomaticity still seems to be in the phrase "run on empty" rather than in "empty". - -sche (discuss) 18:00, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
- Smell... probably could use a usage note, but the usage example should do it.
- Run on empty has a literal and at least one figurative sense. Both literal and figurative senses seem to either use an ellipsis (empty for empty tank of fuel) or a reference to empty as "reading on a fuel gauge". These are normal linguistic processes. Because they are normal and the meaning is transparent, no reference at “run on empty”, in OneLook Dictionary Search. has this. The metaphor may allow the substitution of other words for empty as well, certainly fumes. Should we just look to have usage examples?
- This is not really a linguistic phenomenon as much as it is a conceptual one. We could exhaust ourselves looking for all the attestable forms of the "person/enterprise-as-fueled-vehicle" metaphor. For dead metaphors there is something lexical and not conceptual. For live ones, I don't think so. If I were explaining the expression to someone, I'd say something like "It's as if he/it were a car", rather than define it. DCDuring TALK 18:10, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
- Update: “running on empty”, in OneLook Dictionary Search. shows that AHDIdioms has it at this form.
- @-sche: What about running on fumes, which is certainly attestable? DCDuring TALK 18:17, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
- Apparently on can live on/off the smell of an oily rag. I'll add some more variety at [[smell of an oily rag#Noun]]. DCDuring TALK 18:40, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
- @Msh210: Yes, we have sense 12 of on, but that doesn't mean on the smell of an oily rag is SoP. If "smell of an oily rag" were used to mean "small amount"/"bare minimum", it would arguably be, but since people apparently don't say things like, "I've got to order more parts soon — we've only got the smell of an oily rag left in stock," the preposition is integral to conveying the idiom's meaning. I understand wanting to trim the fat off entry titles, but not at the expense of creating the implication that something is used in a way it isn't. I support moving this to on the smell of an oily rag, and also creating off the smell of an oily rag, since that seems attestable, too. Astral (talk) 19:12, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
- I agree completely that the existence of that sense of on doesn't mean on the smell of an oily rag is SOP, and didn't mean to imply that it does. (Existence of live off the smell of an oily rag (which DCDuring points to above) might, though.)—msh210℠ (talk) 21:36, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
- @Msh210: Yes, we have sense 12 of on, but that doesn't mean on the smell of an oily rag is SoP. If "smell of an oily rag" were used to mean "small amount"/"bare minimum", it would arguably be, but since people apparently don't say things like, "I've got to order more parts soon — we've only got the smell of an oily rag left in stock," the preposition is integral to conveying the idiom's meaning. I understand wanting to trim the fat off entry titles, but not at the expense of creating the implication that something is used in a way it isn't. I support moving this to on the smell of an oily rag, and also creating off the smell of an oily rag, since that seems attestable, too. Astral (talk) 19:12, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
- Moved --Type56op9 (talk) 09:58, 22 August 2014 (UTC)