User talk:030BeterHe
Welcome[edit]
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Enjoy your stay at Wiktionary! ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 16:52, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
Edits[edit]
You seem to have become well acquainted with the prevailing editing practices here. One small quibble is that numbered lists are usually avoided in etymologies, in fact even unordered lists with bullet points are a rare sight. If you want to learn the conventions used for IPA here, this will allow you to get started more or less straight away. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 16:52, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
Thank you for the warm welcome and the kind words! There's a few etymologies I added that are poorly coded/worded, I'll fix them at a later date. I generally try to avoid using numbered lists in etymologies, but there are a few instances in which it's helpful to have some kind of listing (for example, there are hamlets and villages called Voorst in six different municipalities, all with different attestations and some with slightly different etymologies). As far as IPA is concerned, I'll experiment with it over the next couple of weeks and will then begin cautiously adding it to some of the older etymologies. — This unsigned comment was added by 030BeterHe (talk • contribs) at 17:56, 17 May 2021.
- I see, I must say I'm not really sure how extreme cases like that are normally treated, you could ask about it in the Tea Room. For a toponym and a toponymic surname it usually isn't even necessary to start a new line. Oh, and place names usually should have a gender (in most cases it will be neuter), so it's better to use
{{nl-proper noun|n}}for them; see Langerak. Most users don't bother with gender parameters for surnames.←₰-→Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 15:31, 18 May 2021 (UTC)
[edit]
Hey, I noticed that quite a few of the Scandinavian descendants you added at oorlog matched those given at Etymologiebank (Nederlandse woorden wereldwijd). I wanted to warn you about them, because these ones are often not much better than guesswork. In a large number of cases a Low German origin is significantly more probable for the Scandinavian languages, especially if there is no link to early-modern introductions or nautical innovations. To judge whether the Low German word is inherited, you must either know something about its distribution or about earlier stages. Another issue is that the etymologies in Scandinavian dictionaries often are not great either, often they'll lazily opt for Low German as a default even if there are reasons to suppose a Dutch origin may be plausible.
@Korn, could you have a quick look at the descendants at oorlog and see if a Low German origin is more probably? ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 19:20, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
Thank you for the warning @Lingo Bingo Dingo, I only noticed that most descendants were doubtful today in fact. Feel free to remove them if it turns out they're actually of Low German origin 030BeterHe (talk) 19:23, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
- The issue with attribution to the wrong language is mostly limited to Low German, by the way, and presumably involves the low prestige that that language currently has. In some cases I have had difficulties finding some of the words listed in that source, so I wouldn't just copy from it either. The words probably do exist but may not be documented to the degree Wiktionary requires.
←₰-→Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 19:32, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
Inheritence vs Borrowing[edit]
Hi, I appreciate your work on the Dutch creole greatly, but at least some of these terms are inherited, not borrowed. As you can see at the appropriate category, Berbice creole is a descendant of Dutch (just like Afrikaans and Negerhollands), so the |bor= parameter should be left unspecified. Could you fix these yourself? Thanks in advance. Thadh (talk) 20:15, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
@Thadh, hello, thank you for the kind words! The reason I indicate the terms as borrowed is because the source I'm getting them from very specifically states they're borrowings. I already thought this was somewhat odd considering that by the source's metric, every word in Afrikaans should be included as a borrowing as well. I'll add the last few words of the letter I'm working on and then I'll go back and fix what I've already added. 030BeterHe (talk) 20:18, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
- I don't know much of anything about Berbice creole, but I have a hard time believing sound changes like brood > broto occur in borrowings, not to say such a basic word would be an unusual borrowing. Maybe the paper you're following has a different understanding of historical linguistics (perhaps they think an african language is the creole's base), but I think it's save to say that most, if not all, terms you've added are just inheritances. But I can see why you had a tough time, source interpretation can sometimes be a hell of a struggle. Thadh (talk) 20:35, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
- The source I'm using is a dictionary of loans from Dutch into other languages that you can find here https://uitleenwoordenbank.ivdnt.org/index.php/uitleen, I decided to play it safe and just follow the source when it said that something is a borrowing. I'll take your word that Dutch is the mother language though, there's very clear sound correspondences in a lot of words (e.g. Dutch -ng- is lengthened into Berbice -ngg-, Dutch -a- and -e- broadly correspond to Berbice -e- and -a-) that indicate inheritance rather than borrowing. I'm not 100% sure why the source describes every word is borrowed, I don't think there's all that much of a reason for it beyond "this is more obscure than Afrikaans and we don't know much about it, so let's throw it all on one big pile" (then again, it does the same thing for Negerhollands, so perhaps the makers regard Berbice and Negerhollands as fully independent languages, although then that would imply Afrikaans is just a dialect of Dutch etc. etc.). Anyway, I'll change some of the descendants today and the rest tomorrow. 030BeterHe (talk) 20:51, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
- Found the culprit: [1], the author explains in paragraph 3 that they included all words in Dutch creoles as borrowings despite the fact they aren't. Good work by the way! I'm glad we have another Dutch&friends editor in our midst :) Thadh (talk) 01:21, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
- @Thadh, for what it's worth, brood > broto could very easily be a borrowing if the receiving language has a constraint on final consonants. There is by the way also a third way, Sranan Tongo descendants from English are neither regarded as borrowings nor inheritances; the template
{{der}}is used in etymologies and no parameter is added in descendant sections. - Unfortunately, many Dutch linguists do consider Afrikaans as just a dialect of Dutch, despite the very different verbal grammar.
←₰-→Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 10:19, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
- The source I'm using is a dictionary of loans from Dutch into other languages that you can find here https://uitleenwoordenbank.ivdnt.org/index.php/uitleen, I decided to play it safe and just follow the source when it said that something is a borrowing. I'll take your word that Dutch is the mother language though, there's very clear sound correspondences in a lot of words (e.g. Dutch -ng- is lengthened into Berbice -ngg-, Dutch -a- and -e- broadly correspond to Berbice -e- and -a-) that indicate inheritance rather than borrowing. I'm not 100% sure why the source describes every word is borrowed, I don't think there's all that much of a reason for it beyond "this is more obscure than Afrikaans and we don't know much about it, so let's throw it all on one big pile" (then again, it does the same thing for Negerhollands, so perhaps the makers regard Berbice and Negerhollands as fully independent languages, although then that would imply Afrikaans is just a dialect of Dutch etc. etc.). Anyway, I'll change some of the descendants today and the rest tomorrow. 030BeterHe (talk) 20:51, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
Hi, I might add that Aukan and Ndyuka are two words for the same language. Hence Ndyuka-Trio is a descendant from Aukan in Wiktionary terms :) --Appolodorus1 (talk) 06:35, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
In which dialect is this presented as "Oma"?? In local dialects -ade tends to be lenited to -aje and complete disappearance of the h and the g both are highly suspect as well. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 21:51, 30 October 2023 (UTC)