User talk:Anglom

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Reconstructed pages are always required to have descendants, so that they can be verified. —CodeCat 17:10, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Okay, my mistake. I'll add what I can find. Thank you for the notification.Anglom (talk) 17:16, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
The only related word I can find for it in Old English is 'temian', but that would not come from *tamjanan, right? Anglom (talk) 17:24, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
I've already added some. I don't know about "temian", it seems irregular, and looks like it should come from *temōnan or something like that. But I don't know any other languages that have such a form so it would be a rather dubious reconstruction. —CodeCat 17:52, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
Wow you work fast! Thank you for those. I will do my homework before I try again. Anglom (talk) 17:55, 4 March 2013 (UTC)


Should this be ιζω (izō)? Mglovesfun (talk) 19:23, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

It could be. I couldn't find an entry for a verb-forming suffix from Latin and Ancient Greek to base it on, so I went with what was listed. If you think it should be, then we'll go with that. Anglom (talk) 19:31, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
I meant -ιζω (-izō), apologies. See Italian -izzare, which links to Latin -izo not -izare. Mglovesfun (talk) 19:34, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
It's been moved to -ίζω now. Thank you for your input, I appreciate it. Anglom (talk) 20:00, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
The page -ιζειν should be created again, though, with whatever is appropriate for an Ancient Greek infinitive form-of entry. And -ίζω needs an inflection table. —CodeCat 20:03, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
Ah, alright. I will do my best. Anglom (talk) 20:05, 12 March 2013 (UTC)


Could you please fix the categories at leassagol? Currently the entry is added to English categories rather than Old English. You also may want to consider using {{compound}}. —CodeCat 15:10, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Should be fixed now, sorry about that. Anglom (talk) 15:27, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Moving the Germanic entries[edit]

When moving them can you look at the "What links here" page of the old name, to see if there are any pages that need to be changed? You don't need to fix the Index pages because they are automatically updated. If the pages that link to the old page are redirects themselves, you can also mark them for deletion (they are mostly pages with "old" names using an * rather than /, we moved those a few years ago but the redirects remain). —CodeCat 12:40, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

Hadn't even thought to do that; thank you. Will do. Anglom (talk) 17:20, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

Proto-Germanic words and ogonki[edit]

Hello, good sir.

I see that you are removing ogonki from (certain) Proto-Germanic pages but adding them to Proto-Germanic terms referenced in Etymology sections in the mainspace. I suspect you are planning to rename the Proto-Germanic pages so that the ogonek spellings are used. Is this right or no? If I'm not right, what is going on? Was this change discussed anywhere?

Espreon (talk) 23:43, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

You are right; the discussion is here WT:RFM#Proto-Germanic forms with final nasal vowels to their ogonek-spelled forms. Anglom (talk) 23:52, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
I see. Thanks.
Espreon (talk) 00:32, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

A barnstar for you![edit]

Original Barnstar Hires.png Barnstar
For helping to move and delete over a hundred Proto-Germanic pages. —CodeCat 20:36, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
Thank you muchly, I appreciate it. Anglom (talk) 20:41, 18 April 2013 (UTC)


I don't think the descendants can be correct. Gothic has ē, which is not expected in this case, and it also has þ. —CodeCat 21:39, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Both were noted in Orel, which also mentions a Gothic reconstruction of *aweiþi. I'm not all that knowledgeable about it though, so I'll follow your judgement. Anglom (talk) 21:48, 18 April 2013 (UTC)


Thanks for making a blue link. However, the sort parameter should retain a normal sigma, even at the end of the word, so that it sorts correctly. I know it looks ten kinds of wrong, but no one has to see it besides editors. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 18:24, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Ah, alright then. Sorry about that. Anglom (talk) 18:27, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
No need to apologize; thanks for making the change. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 18:46, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

PIE spelling[edit]

We use a standardised spelling for PIE words, which is detailed on WT:AINE. I've fixed your entry *mundōną so I'm just letting you know. —CodeCat 13:20, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Alright, and thank you. Anglom (talk) 14:13, 3 May 2013 (UTC)


Recently many new features have been added to templates. One of those is the ability to remove macrons from Old English words, so you don't need to specify the word twice. Like here: cornbǣre. I thought that might be useful to you. Not all templates have this yet, but if you notice it's missing then it can probably be added easily if you let me know. —CodeCat 23:54, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

That is very useful! Thank you. Anglom (talk) 23:59, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
Does {{suffixcat}} have this ability as well? Anglom (talk) 00:11, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
It should have, yes, but it was only added a few days ago so let me know if things are not working as they should. Another change is that you no longer need to add {{l}} or #Old English into headwords. Just putting [[ ]] around words is enough, the template will correctly link them. The macron-removing works here too, so you can put [[ ]] around a word with macrons and they will be stripped from the page name before the link is created. All of these are features of {{head}}, {{l}} and {{term}}, but I converted all the Old English templates just now to use {{head}} so it all works. Oh, and you don't need to use {{recons}} anymore, you can just use {{term}} if you put * before a reconstructed term. There's also {{term/t}} (the name is temporary) which is the same as {{term}} in every way, but it takes the parameters the way {{l}} does, with the language code first. You may prefer it instead of {{term}}. —CodeCat 00:38, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
Oh, it looks like {{suffix}} doesn't work right. I noticed it added the grambære to the -bǣre category, which is not correct. —CodeCat 00:52, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
Ok, that's fixed. —CodeCat 00:55, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
Thank you. And thanks for all the other information, as well, I will definitely be trying it out! Anglom (talk) 01:01, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
If you like these kinds of features, you may want to try out making modules. They're what has made this all possible. :) —CodeCat 01:03, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
They do look amazing but also really complex! I'm not much of a coder/programmer but I will try learning. Anglom (talk) 01:10, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
You could make a sandbox module at Module:User:Anglom and experiment with it a little bit. Lua is fairly easy to learn, there are just a few catches when it comes to how it works with the wiki. There is some information on WT:LUA but I don't know if it's useful to you. —CodeCat 01:15, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
That looks very useful, thank you muchly! Anglom (talk) 01:21, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Bosworth Toller template[edit]

You may have noticed that the BT page has changed to indexing by reference number, not word. Putting the lemma into the link is a complete waste of time, unless it's into a search function, and that has the potential to get messy. If anything, I think we should make the link either to a search, or to just use the index number by default, else a bare link to the BT site.

--Catsidhe (verba, facta) 21:37, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Can we just gloss the reference number with an 'alt' form? I really liked being able to link to the page for easier access. If you feel it's the best choice however, I will accept that. Anglom (talk) 21:45, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
The italicised reference should be the header or the first variable. There are more than a few instances of this template in use, so it would be better to have the page index for the link specified as a "ref=" variable, which can be retrofitted. (And even, if thought worthy, make a cleanup category for where it is missing.) Without a specific link ref, though, the link should be to the front page of BT, and the user can search from there.
I'll make these edits to show you what I mean. --Catsidhe (verba, facta) 21:51, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
There, with usage example at hæcce. It will require effort to retrofit links to existing entries, but should be functional in any case. --Catsidhe (verba, facta) 22:03, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
I think that looks really good. If you're happy with that, I don't mind going through and fixing the links. Anglom (talk) 22:09, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Old English Supine/Gerund[edit]

Hi! Isn't the normal West Saxon gerund (the + verbal noun) formed with -enne (< PGmc -anjōi), rather than -anne (a later Northern variant?); with the former showing the more conservative i-mutation of the vowel? Leasnam (talk) 23:15, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

It could be. I see it very often in Bosworth-Toller, alongside '-anne'. But that part of the template was already there before I added to it, and I'm not quite all that knowledgeable about Old English yet to know which it should be. Sorry! Anglom (talk) 23:28, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Gothic attestations[edit]

The forms that are attested in texts will generally have a romanization entry, so they should be fine to add. But just because a link appears blue in an inflection table doesn't mean there's a Gothic entry there! Like fastos for example, which isn't actually attested, but you created 𐍆𐌰𐍃𐍄𐍉𐍃 anyway. So you need to check the romanized entries to see if there's a Gothic entry there, before creating the Gothic script form. —CodeCat 20:09, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

Aye, that would be smarter. Sorry about that. Anglom (talk) 20:15, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

Germanic adverbs[edit]

Thank you for creating these. If you took the etymology from the paper I showed you, could you add a source using <ref> tags?

Also, maybe it would be better to create a separate entry for the suffixes found in the adverbs, so that you don't repeat the same etymology over and over. —CodeCat 22:02, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

I can do that, I think. Thank you. Anglom (talk) 22:08, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
I think it might be useful to create an appendix page, say Appendix:Proto-Germanic locative adverbs and prepositions, or add to the existing Appendix:Proto-Germanic adverbs. This would show the various forms in a schematic way, in a table with columns for ablative, adessive and allative, along with the preposition. It might be a useful educational tool for those who want to know more about the adverb system in Proto-Germanic. Do you want to do this? —CodeCat 00:32, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
I can give it a shot. I'm not the greatest at explaining things, but I'll do my best. Anglom (talk) 00:38, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
I think I'll try it on Appendix:Proto-Germanic adverbs first, but if it doesn't fit we can move it later. Anglom (talk) 00:45, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Moving/deleting pages[edit]

When you do this, could you make sure that there are no links to the old name first? —CodeCat 00:02, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Yup, I can do that. It's been so long since I've done it, I forgot. Sorry. Anglom (talk) 00:05, 12 April 2014 (UTC)


Nasal-infix presents were always formed to zero grade roots, by inserting the infix before the last consonant. So if this were a nasal-infix present, its PIE form would have to be *li-né-gʷʰ- ~ *li-n-gʷʰ-´ , from a root *leygʷʰ-. —CodeCat 00:54, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

Ah, I didn't even realize. It does not look to be a nasal present, then. Beekes shows full-grade *h₁lengʷʰ- as well. Anglom (talk) 01:12, 8 May 2014 (UTC)


I don't think the etymology is correct. I'm not aware of any sound change of -dl- > -ll- in Germanic. On the other hand, there is a sound change -ln- > -ll-. So this is probably from the root *stel-. —CodeCat 17:11, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Kroonen only gives four examples of it: *knullaz/*knudô, *stallaz, *strullōną/*stredaną, and *trullōną/*trudaną. Anglom (talk) 17:19, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
Although, I am confused by the second-to-last example, he gives it as *stredaną while showing it as an example of the sound change, but lists it as *streþaną in the actual entry. I can only assume *strullōną continues from a related *strud-, though. Anglom (talk) 17:25, 16 May 2014 (UTC)


Hi Anglom! Is there a reason why *stimnōną is more correct? Leasnam (talk) 22:54, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

The -e- preceding a nasal and another consonant becomes -i-. Technically, *stemnō should be *stimnō, but I didn't have the time to sort through it all and move it. There are apparently two Germanic variants at work, *stimn- and *stamni-, Pre-Germanic *stem(m)n- and *stom(m)n-. Anglom (talk) 01:09, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
Also, I planned on bringing it up in the discussion page but forgot about it. I didn't want to step on anyone's toes by moving it without warning. Anglom (talk) 01:18, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
Yes of course. Depending on the source and if its early (e still maintained) or late (raised before nasal) it can show either . Yeah had the page been moved to *stimnō I wdve known. I usually show this rule. The majority of descendants also show e. It has an alternate form in *stebnō. Perhaps that stabilised the vowel in this word, or shifted the vowel back, but I'm fine with either. Whichever it ends up being an alternate should be shown Leasnam (talk) 02:31, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
OHG stimma, stimna might be the only one that goes back to *stimnō. The rest seem to belong to *stebnō and *stamnijō. Kroonen considers the idea that *stamn- and *stemn- split off from an original ablauting paradigm. Anglom (talk) 05:17, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
Is there any way we can find out whether -mn- or -bn- was original? It seems that these sequences got mixed up in most languages. Even later changes seem to have muddled it, like Swedish hamn < Old Norse hǫfn < Proto-Germanic *habnō, or jämn < Old Norse jafn < Proto-Germanic *ebnaz (all other Scandinavian languages have -v- or -f-). —CodeCat 12:59, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
Kroonen seems to give the pre-Germanic cluster as -mn-. He lists *ebnaz as such but gives the etymology as *(h₁)emnos, related to Sanskrit अम्नस् (amnas, just now, unexpectedly). He lists this word as *stimnō, and lists variants *stamnijō, *stebnō, and *stimmō, which he thinks probably all split off of an original paradigm. He gives the Gothic suffix -𐌿𐌱𐌽𐌹 (-ubni) as Proto-Germanic *-umnij-, Pre-Germanic *-m̥ni-, connecting also Old Saxon fastunnia. Lehmann gives the Proto-Germanic suffix as *-ubnij-, however, with the same pre-Germanic form.
*habnō he lists as *habanō, from Pre-Germanic *kh₂póneh₂, related to Old Irish cuan(but notes it likely spread from one branch to another), stating it's usually connected etymologically with *habą (sea, lake) and *habjaną (to lift). If the etymology for *habnō is correct, then the Swedish -mn- seems to have been an independent development, yes? Anglom (talk) 18:01, 26 July 2014 (UTC)


Hi. Before I realised it was you (I thought it was autocorrect), I changed the etymology of *sebô. I left it as there is a page at *sap-. Leasnam (talk) 00:20, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

It's okay. *sap- will have to be moved at some point, but de Vaan gives a different PIE root than Kroonen and Beekes, *sHp- vs *sep-, so I probably won't get to it until I understand it. Anglom (talk) 03:02, 29 August 2014 (UTC)


Thanks. I got further confirmation on the gender from one of the databases I had neglected to consult: AnimalBase. Your etymology seems better than the one I'd found, though many such etymologies are suspect.

Would you accept an administratorship nomination? DCDuring TALK 01:35, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

There's also Icelandic hávella, Faroese ógvella, the latter components of which, -ella, Kroonen reconstructs as Proto-Germanic *allijǭ, so it still might even be possible that alle goes back to Scandinavian dialectal word. Along with Alca, they all seem to go back to a root *al-, which could be connected with Latin olor (swan).
I would, yes. Thank you. Anglom (talk) 02:09, 12 December 2014 (UTC)


Please go to Special:Preferences and provide your e-mail address.

Please go to Wiktionary:Votes/2014-12/User:Anglom for administrator and accept the nomination, stating your languages, and making whatever statement you would like to help people understand you as a contributor here. DCDuring TALK 03:42, 12 December 2014 (UTC)


I've found that in situations like this, the vowel (or lack of it) before a final sonorant is reflected pretty reliably in Old Norse, at least when the case ending is not syllabic. So the fact that it's afl and not afal indicates that there was no medial vowel in Proto-Germanic. It works for a-stems, u-stems and i-stems, I don't know if it also works for ō-stems. For n-stems it doesn't work, because the ending is syllabic, and the middle of three syllables normally gets syncopated in Old Norse (both a hypothetical *afalô and *aflô would become *afli in Old Norse). —CodeCat 19:17, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

That makes sense. The West Germanic languages are rife with epenthetic vowels, so it's hard to tell sometimes. Thank you for the info. Anglom (talk) 19:35, 3 February 2015 (UTC)


Hi! I saw your recent edit, adding the forerunners of English tow to the Descendants of *tukkōną, yet don't these rather belong at *tugōną instead? Leasnam (talk) 11:59, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

Probably. I'm not quite sure how to deal with the iteratives, which is why I've been waiting so long to add them(there are a ton of them); *tukkōną/*tugōną were both just one verb in Proto-Germanic, being *tukk- in the singular present but *tug- elsewhere. The iterative paradigm was very unstable though, so they could eventually split up into four different variants (depending on if Verner's law was involved) in the daughter languages as they tried to regularize them with leveling. For instance, the reflexes of *tukkōną show all possible variants I think, *tukk-, *tuk-, *tug- and *tugg-.
The big problem I've had is whether we should reconstruct each stem variant individually(*tukkōną, *tukōną, *tugōną, *tuggōną); into the two main variants(*tukkōną, *tugōną); or just under the original form. The former would result in a lot of reconstructions. Anglom (talk) 12:35, 22 February 2015 (UTC)
How about creating a separate page just for the stem: *tukk- showing the other variants in the header (like we do at *bō- and *grel-). Thus *tukkōną, *tugōną, et al. would be child-entries of *tukk-. I just cannot see togian coming directly out of *tukkōną per se Leasnam (talk) 17:10, 22 February 2015 (UTC)


Maybe you should make an entry for this and a "words suffixed with" category? —CodeCat 15:34, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

Alright. I kind of wondered if -ī-niz and -ō-niz should instead redirect there as well, as the long vowels properly belong to the verb stem. Similar to how *-islą is the result of attaching *-slą to weak class 1 verbs. Anglom (talk) 15:48, 16 March 2015 (UTC)


I think it would be good to set up Wiktionary:About Proto-Brythonic so that everyone understands the notation. —CodeCat 20:34, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

Ah, that's a good idea. I will have it up shortly. Anglom (talk) 20:39, 16 April 2015 (UTC)