Wiktionary:Requests for deletion

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Wiktionary > Requests > Requests for deletion

Wiktionary Request pages (edit) see also: discussions
Requests for cleanup
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Cleanup requests, questions and discussions.

Requests for verification
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Requests for verification in the form of durably-archived attestations conveying the meaning of the term in question.

Requests for deletion
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Requests for deletion of pages in the main namespace due to policy violations; also for undeletion requests.

Requests for deletion/Others
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Requests for deletion of pages in other (not the main) namespaces, such as categories, appendices and templates.

Requests for moves, mergers and splits
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Moves, mergers and splits; requests listings, questions and discussions.

{{rfc-case}} - {{rfc-trans}} - {{rfdate}} - {{rfd-redundant}} - {{rfdef}} - {{rfe}} - {{rfex}} - {{rfap}} - {{rfp}} - {{rfphoto}} -

All Wiktionary: namespace discussions 1 2 3 4 5 - All discussion pages 1 2 3 4 5

Scope of this request page:

  • In-scope: terms suspected to be multi-word sums of their parts such as “brown leaf”
  • Out-of-scope: terms to be attested by providing quotations of their use



See also:

Scope: This page is for requests for deletion of pages, entries and senses in the main namespace for a reason other than that the term cannot be attested. One of the reasons for posting an entry or a sense here is that it is a sum of parts, such as "brown leaf".

Out of scope: This page is not for requests for deletion in other namespaces such as "Category:" or "Template:", for which see Wiktionary:Requests for deletion/Others. It is also not for requests for attestation. Blatantly obvious candidates for deletion should only be tagged with {{delete|Reason for deletion}} and not listed.

Adding a request: To add a request for deletion, place the template {{rfd}} or {{rfd-sense}} to the questioned entry, and then make a new nomination here. The section title should be exactly the wikified entry title such as "[[brown leaf]]". The deletion of just part of a page may also be proposed here. If an entire section is being proposed for deletion, the tag {{rfd}} should be placed at the top; if only a sense is, the tag {{rfd-sense}} should be used, or the more precise {{rfd-redundant}} if it applies. In any of these cases, any editor including non-admins may act on the discussion.

Closing and archiving requests: A request can be closed when a decision to delete, keep, or transwiki has been reached, or after the request has expired. The deleting administrator should remember to sign. Deletion requests are archived to the talk page of the deleted entry, using {{rfd-passed}} and {{rfd-failed}}; for a model see Talk:piffle and Talk:good job. If you see discussions on this page that were closed in previous months, your help in archiving would be appreciated; it's as simple as cut-and-paste.

Time and expiration: Entries and senses should not normally be deleted in less than seven days after nomination. When there is no consensus after some time, the template {{look}} should be added to the bottom of the discussion. If there is no consensus for more than a month, the entry should be kept as a 'no consensus'.

Oldest tagged RFDs


October 2013[edit]


rfd-sense: "Using drastic or severe measures." Isn't this the same as "in a drastic manner"? Mglovesfun (talk) 15:19, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

You would think so, being a native speaker, but what about the poor language learner who doesn't know that? DCDuring TALK 15:56, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
Sorry, what's your point? Mglovesfun (talk) 20:19, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
It may look like duplication to you from your privileged position as native speaker, but not to the poor, struggling language learner. DCDuring TALK 22:06, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
  • Combine them. Sense 1: In a drastic manner; using drastic or severe measures. bd2412 T 22:42, 17 October 2013 (UTC) Striking !vote, new vote below. bd2412 T 15:21, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
They are not the same, are they? "The numbers have fallen drastically" does not mean they have fallen "using drastic or severe measures" (no measures were used!), but to a drastic or severe extent. Equinox 22:46, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
I made the degree sense separate from the 'manner' sense today. The challenged sense is "using drastic or severe measures", which could be considered duplicative of the manner sense "in a drastic manner". DCDuring TALK 23:31, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
Can someone provide an example of a sentence using "drastically" to refer to the use of drastic or severe measures, that would not be covered by the meaning, in a drastic manner? bd2412 T 23:17, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
I'm not even sure that I know how to distinguish "in a drastic manner" from "to drastic/extreme extent".
???They cut back on store hours minimally, but drastically.
That doesn't seem right at all. DCDuring TALK 23:36, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Delete. In retrospect, the problem here is not that drastically has multiple meanings, but that drastic has multiple meanings, which are contained in that entry. Drastically means one thing, in a drastic manner, no matter which sense of drastic is used. Compare passionately; we do not list separate senses for the romantic, excited, and bereaved senses of passionate. This reflects our practice with other parts of speech. For example, posters is merely defined as the plural of poster, not as "the plural of paper hung on the wall" and "the plural of one who posts things". bd2412 T 15:21, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
    It can seem to be a problem with -ly adverbs that the senses simply carry over from the adjective. However, I think the seeming may not be reality. In this case can you really call this a manner adverb at all? I can detect no semantic difference in the meaning of this adverb whether it modifies an adjective or an adverb. In both cases it seems to have no meaning other than that of a degree adverb. What seems interesting is that it is not or cannot be used with just any verb or adjective. Perhaps this restriction is the vestige of whatever semantically distinguished it at one time from other degree adverbs. It is a shame that older print dictionaries like MW 1913 and Century 1911 rarely offer separate definitions for -ly adverbs. Does the OED define them separately? DCDuring TALK 15:51, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
    Why is there a dichotomy between manner and degree at all? If drastic relates a degree, and I do something "in a drastic manner" then I am doing it to a degree that is drastic. Drastically, in that sense, still means "in a drastic manner". bd2412 T 20:31, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
    There are -ly adverbs that have lost all possibility of being interpreted as manner adverbs, such as greatly. DCDuring TALK 22:40, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
    There is a small class of words like greatly, mostly, and lastly, which can not be described as being in the manner of their corresponding adjective, but they are few and far between, and I don't think this is one of them. bd2412 T 00:52, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
    I'd like to see an instance, invented or real, of the use of the word in current English that clearly had a 'manner' and not a 'degree' interpretation. DCDuring TALK 00:59, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
    Do beautifully or silently convey degree? bd2412 T 01:17, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
    What about these citations (not the usex)? - -sche (discuss) 01:19, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
    They look good as cites of a 'manner' sense, which would seem to merit its own definition. They seem dated to me, but confirming that would take a bit more research. DCDuring TALK 04:31, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
I have combined all of the senses into one sense: "in a drastic manner; to a drastic degree". - -sche (discuss) 21:45, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
I completely agree with this solution (another way to put it would be, "in a manner, or a to a degree, that is drastic"). bd2412 T 16:19, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
How does that substitute into "drastically different/wrong/smaller"? Wouldn't the degree sense, especially where drasticlly modifies an adjective, be better served by a {{non-gloss definition}} ({{n-g}})?
There is something that we are not capturing. It's a good thing that these discussions are linked to from the entry talk page or, better, ON the entry talk page, so someone else could press on to capture what's still missing. Substitution is a good test for the quality of a definition, both as to length and, especially, grammar.DCDuring TALK 17:45, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
Re "how does that substitute into ‘drastically different/wrong/smaller’?": doesn't it sub right in? "Chocolate is drastically different from vanilla": "Chocolate is different from vanilla to a degree that is drastic=extreme, and/or in a manner than is drastic=extreme", "chocolate is extremely different from vanilla"; compare google books:"the differences are drastic": "the differences are extreme". Likewise with "drastically smaller". I don't recall hearing "drastically wrong" before, but the Google Books hits it gets all seem to mean "wrong to a drastic=extreme degree". - -sche (discuss) 18:35, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
I picked the most frequent adverb-adjective combinations from COCA. I think drastically is bleaching its way toward being a pure degree adverb. So far it retains its manner interpretation almost always when modifying a verb. But I just don't consent to the naturalness of the "drastic manner" reading when it modifies an adjective, at least not in most cases. I can readily accept the "manner" reading when it is "drastically differ/s/ing/ed", but not when it is "drastically different". So the "or" bothers me, here, much as combining transitive and intransitive verb definitions bothers me. DCDuring TALK 19:56, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
I have undone the combination of the senses as out of process. If someone wants to close the nomination, please do so in boldfaceso that we know what is going on without wading through walls of text. --Dan Polansky (talk) 08:13, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
I undid my edit; I acted hastily. In any case, I am not about to be closing this mess right now. --Dan Polansky (talk) 16:32, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
In light of what Equinox said, we should rewrite the entry, making clear what the difference between the two senses is. Renard Migrant (talk) 19:28, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

face sex oral[edit]

Sum of parts, especially considering that we already have face sex. --Æ&Œ (talk) 01:26, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

I was wondering what face sex was, until I clicked on it and it was Romanian. Mglovesfun (talk) 01:12, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
At least it's better than face cum... -- Liliana 05:00, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
  • Keep. It is not obvious to an English speaker that the Romanian phrase would follow this construction. bd2412 T 13:41, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Delete. The verb face just means “do”. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 00:01, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Keep this Romanian entry meaning "to have oral sex"; erring on the side of. There should be at least one Romanian entry for the verb sense of "have oral sex"; until someone can show us another common Romanian entry meaning "have oral sex" to be kept, this should be kept. I am surprised the deletionists have not RFDed have sex yet. If Romanian face sex oral is to be deleted, so should probably be Romanian face sex (have sex). By the way, I think the Czech "mít sex" (have sex) is an English import; I don't think it obvious that a language would form "have sex" construction. --Dan Polansky (talk) 07:22, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Klebsiella pneumoniae carbapenemase[edit]

Translingual entry. In the translingual community that uses this term Klebsiella pneumoniae (a species name, in italics) seems to be used attributively as a modifier to chemical term carbapenemase (not italicized). This seems SoP. The same may be true for more casual use in English, but that is a separable matter.

The whole mess of related MWEs surrounding this in both English and Translingual L2s needs review. This seems like the best place to start. If this passes, then the rest almost certainly would pass RfD, whatever redundancy-eliminating cleanup they might need. DCDuring TALK 13:06, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

  • Basically, it's totally wrong. Originally it was a carbapenemase produced by Klebsiella pneumoniae - this would be SoP. Now, KPC refers to carbapenemases produced by other bacteria. I would just delete it. SemperBlotto (talk) 17:33, 27 October 2013 (UTC)
    The misnomer principle would say we should keep it if the SoP name is misleading as to the actual meaning in use. DCDuring TALK 15:54, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
Indeed, that to me sounds like a reason to keep (but improve). Mglovesfun (talk) 19:22, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
It might not be too easy to attest the non-SoP definition. Who would like to take a crack at an alternative definition?
Perhaps, these definitions ought to be RfVed. In the course of the RfV maybe better definitions will emerge. If no one is willing and able to find good attestation for the definitions, then we are incapable of including it, whether or not it is in fact part of the language. DCDuring TALK 19:39, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

December 2013[edit]

emergency physician[edit]

Looks like sum of parts to me. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 14:56, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

  • Keep as a translation target. The French translation is urgentiste, a single-word non-compound. Per WP, Portuguese is emergencista. German Notarzt is a compound, but I am not sure one would be able to be sure about the translation by combining translations for "emergency" and "physician". I am not sure what the Czech translation should be; maybe záchranář, but not nouzový lékař offered by Google translate (actually, Google offered "nouzové lékař", which is ungrammatical for gender mismatch). Slovak would probably be pohotovostný lekár, which is quite transparent, yet Google translate offers núdzové lekár. Admission: translation target is outside of CFI. --Dan Polansky (talk) 18:38, 26 May 2014 (UTC)
I would delete as not likely to be a good phrasebook entry. You don't ask for an emergency physician, you ask for an ambulance or to go to a hospital. Renard Migrant (talk) 21:04, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
Delete per nom.​—msh210 (talk) 07:02, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
Question book magnify2.svg
Input needed: This discussion needs further input in order to be successfully closed. Please take a look!

Kept for lack of consensus to delete. bd2412 T 15:52, 2 September 2014 (UTC)


  • rfv-sense: (adjective) Made of parquetry. (Added to the nomination later.)

The adjective shown here is a noun modifier, according to Oxford. The derived terms could be transferred to the noun, and the quotations too. Donnanz 11:58, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

Delete (or cite as unambiguously adjectival). Mglovesfun (talk) 20:07, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

Seems to me this is a rather fruitless discussion. Is "parquet" in "parquet floor" a noun-modifier or an adjective? On what grounds could you offer a definitive answer to that question? (And is it even a sensible question to ask?) Unless the parsimony that a noun-only definition would offer is the goal, maintaining the adjectival entry makes it clear that "parquet" can be used to modify a variety of nouns ("floor," "table," etc.). —This unsigned comment was added by (talkcontribs) at 21:44, 25 July 2014., in diff

  • Delete the adjective part including the citations and derived terms section, unless someone can convincingly argue that this is more than an attributive use of a noun; we do not indiscriminately document nouns that find attributive use as adjectives. I checked parquet at OneLook Dictionary Search. The adjective sense was added in diff. --Dan Polansky (talk) 07:05, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

homo marriage[edit]

Obvious SOP added by the author because it applies to his gay lifestyle. --Æ&Œ (talk) 17:24, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

First of all, you added it yourself. Second of all, you also added homomarriage, so now WT:COALMINE applies unless homomarriage is not citable. If you want it to be deleted, why did you add it? --WikiTiki89 17:36, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
homomarriage is just homo + marriage. --Æ&Œ (talk) 17:47, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
You do know about WT:COALMINE, don't you? --WikiTiki89 17:56, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
Is WT:COALMINE a Wiktionary policy? If it is, then that automatically makes it worthless. All that matters is common practice. --Æ&Œ (talk) 18:08, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
Yes it's a policy, and the common practice happens to be to follow it, despite the editors (including me) who disagree with it. --WikiTiki89 18:21, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
We don’t need policies; Wiktionary can exist without any policies. --Æ&Œ (talk) 18:42, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
Without policies, there would no criteria for blocking people for making bad edits. --WikiTiki89 18:50, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
Ah who cares. Let the admins block whomever they want! It’s not like they ever needed reasons, well, aside from the fact that blocking is fun. --Æ&Œ (talk) 19:06, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

Move homomarriage to RFV (and delete both once it fails). Ƿidsiþ 18:00, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

  • Does this ever mean a gay person's straight marriage of convenience? Including this would seem to be justified, nay, required by our slogan with no justification in CFI for excluding it (even without COALMINE). Similarly for breeder marriage, which is attestable on Usenet from a few different groups. DCDuring TALK 22:01, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

On the contrary, I would to request the deletion of this entry on the grounds that it’s an idiotic word and I don’t want to be associated with it. My comments above were just me making a damned idiot out of myself as usual. --Æ&Œ (talk) 01:57, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

  • Keep: Added and nominated by a resident troll (e.g. "We don’t need policies; Wiktionary can exist without any policies." above); there are attesting quotations for the space-free form homomarriage at Citations:homomarriage, and this meets WT:COALMINE. --Dan Polansky (talk) 07:11, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

chè sâm bổ lượng[edit]

Sum of parts: chè + sâm bổ lượng. The latter is a noun taken as an adjective, but any construction of chè + <name of dish> is unnecessary. Suggest deleting definition and moving it as alternative form of sâm bổ lượng. TeleComNasSprVen (talk) 22:43, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

  • Keep, erring on the side of. W:Ching bo leung mentions this as one of the alternate terms for the soup. That's nothing very strong, but now that many months have elapsed without an input, let us keep this until we get something stronger. Even if this is sum of parts, we won't be keeping incorrect information; at least, no one has questioned the accuracy of the entry. From Category:User vi-N, User:Fumiko Take seems to be recently active; a user who recently commented on a Vietnamese entry is User:Atitarev. --Dan Polansky (talk) 06:51, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
Keep as an alternative form of sâm bổ lượng. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 01:55, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Kept. bd2412 T 16:11, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

January 2014[edit]

‎in one stroke, ‎at a single stroke, at a stroke, at one stroke[edit]

All created at a single stroke. --Hekaheka (talk) 07:40, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Kept, no consensus to delete. bd2412 T 16:03, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

risk appetite[edit]

Another doubtful entry from the RFC sludge pile. Ƿidsiþ 12:26, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

There's risk tolerance by the same contributor. I don't know. Mglovesfun (talk) 13:03, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
They are virtually synonymous. To me risk tolerance seems SoP. I'm not as sure about risk appetite, because if the two terms are always used synonymously, the senses of appetite do not include "tolerance" in any definition I've yet seen.
In the kind of rational setting suggested by three mutually redundant definitions, decision-makers do not have an absolute preference ('appetite') for risk, rather than a tolerance for risk associated with higher expected returns. DCDuring TALK 15:45, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
Keep. I looked at Google translate, and it seems the translations are not word-for-word. The Czech translation "ochota riskovat" (willingness to risk) seems to be much more common (and actually attested) than the word-for-word translation "rizikový apetit". See also http://www.dict.cc/?s=risk+appetite for translations to German. So this will be useful at least for translations. --Dan Polansky (talk) 18:16, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Keep. I recently watched a documentary on the history of the 401k, where a number of financial professionals were throwing this phrase around with abandon. bd2412 T 23:21, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Keep, but merge the definitions (all 3 of them). There's no real difference between them. Now it is as if we copied the definitions of OED, Webster, Collins etc. as separate senses. --Hekaheka (talk) 23:46, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
    I definitely agree that these should be merged into one comprehensive sense; they merely make unimportant distinctions. bd2412 T 15:48, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Kept, senses merged into one. Further improvement to this entry is beyond the scope of RfD. bd2412 T 16:07, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

take exception to[edit]

This seems redundant to take exception (and even that is a bit SoP, considering exception#Noun sense 4, but I'm willing to keep that for whatever reason) so recommended course of action is to delete senses, merge metadata (quotes, refs, translations) to take exception, then leave it as a hard redirect to take exception. Perhaps there could be a usage note saying that take exception is usually, but not always, paired with to. (I wasn't exactly sure whether to best post this in RFM or RFD, but since deletion of the senses seemed more controversial I decided here.) TeleComNasSprVen (talk) 05:29, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

My preference is to combines everything along the lines you suggest, including the redirect. I like to put the complement information on the relevant sense line with {{cx}} (like Longman's Dictionary of Contemporary English) and have the redirect from take exception to go to the specific sense using {{senseid}}. Those who have less interest in Wiktionary as a useful monolingual dictionary seem to like the freedom of having as many translation targets as possible. DCDuring TALK 06:06, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
The RFD discussion archived at Talk:wait for may be relevant. (And there's also some discussion archived at Talk:take exception to, but just between DCDuring and me.) —RuakhTALK 07:26, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
If my memory worked better, I would have provided the Talk references. The only new development is the availability of {{senseid}}. I also note that the length-of-entry (actually length-of-L2) argument does not apply to [[take exception]]. DCDuring TALK 13:38, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

Redirected as proposed. bd2412 T 16:07, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

February 2014[edit]

a modo mio[edit]

SOP? --Back on the list (talk) 18:28, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

Note: User:Back on the list is a Wonderfool account, but even a Wonderfool may have a valid point. --Dan Polansky (talk) 07:58, 30 August 2014 (UTC)


The sense in question:

  1. Disrespectful, cynical, cavilling, querulous, or vulgar, where one's own feelings, or especially deference to the feelings of others, customarily command silence, discretion, and circumspection.

Which is redundant to:

  1. Lacking proper respect or seriousness; sarcastic.

Aside from being redundant, it's a textbook example of thesaurus abuse... Chuck Entz (talk) 14:08, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

Delete. Pretty much the same sense written in a way that makes it harder to understand. — Ungoliant (falai) 14:24, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
I agree. What also bothers me is that there is a translation section with two senses, and I'm not sure that the glosses correspond to the senses above them, or if they do, which is which. "Lacking proper respect or seriousness; sarcastic." seems to be the only accurate sentence on that entry. I'd keep that, delete the ugly one, merge the translations, and revise the gloss so that it matches. Haplogy () 14:33, 10 February 2014 (UTC)


I'm not sure we ought to have this. The thing is, it doesn't seem to be used with verbs other than those of the first conjugation, whose stem ends in ā- (habitaculum from habito, cenaculum from ceno, spectaculum from specto, ientaculum from iento, potaculum from poto, etc.). Thus it would just be a wrong analysis spect-aculum for specta-culum : it's the suffix -culum (conventiculum, etc.), really. --Fsojic (talk) 13:03, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

Actually the same goes for -atio ~ -tio. --Fsojic (talk) 14:02, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
  • I agree, but I reckon this belongs at WT:RFD instead. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 03:50, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
    Fsjocic has given a cogent analysis that entry was created in error. As I have some recollection of the quality of the creator's work, I can vouch for the possibility of such mistaken analysis. If someone has evidence that there are terms that do not fit Fsjocic's hypothesis that all terms ending in aculum are from first conjugation verbs the evidence can the introduced here. I would think we should not delete this in less than a month to give those who would search for such evidence a chance. DCDuring TALK 19:12, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
    There is a whole book written about this: here. I don't have it at hand at the moment, but hopefully soon. --Fsojic (talk) 19:30, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
Again, the same goes for -abilis, -atum, -atus. There is a lot of questionable material in Category:Latin suffixes. --Fsojic (talk) 19:30, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
Redirects from the with-leading-vowel versions of the suffixes to the without-leading-vowel version might help rationalize these without losing users who are accustomed to the version with vowels. Probably the same logic applies to any Translingual (taxonomic) suffixes, though their meaning and use can be quite distinct from their Latin forebears. DCDuring TALK 01:06, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
  • Delete the putative Latin suffix which should be and is -culum per Fsojic above. The nominated putative suffix was created by DCDuring in April 2008‎. --Dan Polansky (talk) 08:09, 30 August 2014 (UTC)


Is this sense, "Serving to refresh." not redundant following "That refreshes someone; pleasantly fresh and different; granting vitality and energy." ? If not, the meaning is not clear and it ought to be stated more specifically. Haplogy () 05:29, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

I found "It sets the refreshing frame rate to 30 frames per second" (referring to computer displays) but IMO the verb covers that adequately. Equinox 18:24, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

March 2014[edit]

biological clock[edit]

Second sense: "The progression from puberty to menopause during which a woman can bear children." I don't think so. The biological clock is most often mentioned in connection with woman's fertile age, but it does not mean that they would be the same thing. This is like saying that "alarm clock" has the sense "sleep". --Hekaheka (talk) 04:03, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

This is more of an RFV matter then, isn't it? --WikiTiki89 04:40, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
That there is some sense or subsense relating specifically to childbearing cannot be doubted. It is the definition that is inadequate. Try substituting it in the citation sentences: Take Linda, a thirty-nine-year-old newscaster who relished her career but began to hear the alarm ringing on her biological clock. It is not so long ago that this was a live metaphor. A possible definition might be "A figurative clock that indicates the decline in a female's ability to bear children." Some such definition should be readily citable, perhaps even under "widespread use". DCDuring TALK 17:06, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
My original thought was that this would be covered with sense #1, but as there is only one cycle involved in the childbearing as opposed to e.g. sleep or metabolism, this could probably be a sense of its own. On the other hand, the female-fertility point of view may be too narrow, as I've seen texts of men's biological clocks. Perhaps something along these lines: "The internal mechanisms regulating the development and ageing of the body of a living thing during its lifetime, used especially to refer to the limited duration of a woman's fertile age." --Hekaheka (talk) 18:43, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
I think references to men's biological clocks are also references to fertility, specifically to things like the quality of one's sperm degrading to the point that it is more likely that a child conceived of that sperm will have genetic problems. Perhaps it's "One's life cycle and tendency to age, seen as a clock that ticks particularly towards a time when one cannot bear healthy children."? (Nah, that's not a good wording.) - -sche (discuss) 19:38, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

Standard English[edit]

Standard (may need specific linguistics definition) + English. — Ungoliant (falai) 02:35, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

Delete, and I don't think a special definition of standard is necessary. --WikiTiki89 02:38, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
Keep. Defined at Oxford, Merriam-Webster, etc. BTW, keep those with "Ancient", "Old", "Modern", "Eastern" prefixes languages one may have appetite for. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 03:03, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
Old English, Modern English, etc. are the names of specific languages. Standard English is any register of English considered standard. — Ungoliant (falai) 03:40, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
The border between languages and registered is often blurred. Modern Standard Arabic is both a register and a quite distinct language if compared to Arabic dialects but not so, if compared to Classical Arabic. Standard Chinese (it's missing but it shouldn't, = Mandarin) and Standard Mandarin are also complicated. Anyway, the term is defined in notorious dictionaries, using Lemming principle, we should keep it. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 05:28, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
You are right about MSA, but that does not apply to English. --WikiTiki89 05:57, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
The Lemming principle is still applicable and whether it is a register or a language, it's a word. I'm not encouraging to have Standard + plus language name entries but for Standard English there are English definitions (more than one) (I gave a SoP Russian translation станда́ртный англи́йский язы́к m (standártnyj anglíjskij jazýk) because I haven't found a dictionary entry for it.). The standard Spanish is not called "Standard Spanish" but "Castilian Spanish". --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 06:06, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
The OED for example does not have a separate definition for it, instead mentioning it as an example of standard definition 3e: "Applied to that variety of a spoken or written language of a country or other linguistic area which is generally considered the most correct and acceptable form, as Standard English, Standard American, etc.; Received Standard; also, standard pronunciation = received pronunciation n." --WikiTiki89 06:17, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
OED definition, although "standard" is in lower case: [mass noun] The form of the English language widely accepted as the usual correct form. In Merriam-Webster both words are capitalised. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 07:26, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
Why is it so hard for people to understand that Oxford Dictionaries is not the Oxford English Dictionary? --WikiTiki89 07:33, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
Sorry for the confusion. Merriam-Webster is still valid and is in the right case. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 07:44, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
I'm not saying Merriam-Webster is not valid or even that Oxford Dictionaries is not valid. I'll make my point about the OED explicit: The OED acknowledges the existence of "Standard English" by mentioning it as a boldface example of "standard", yet it does not include it as a headword. That can only mean that the editors of the most prestigious English dictionary did not find the phrase idiomatic, since it is clear they did just simply leave it out due to oversight. --WikiTiki89 07:50, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
Standard Spanish is called Standard Spanish. — Ungoliant (falai) 06:19, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
Any language can have a standard register. I'm not asking to create or keep Standard Spanish, I don't see a definition for Castilian Spanish either. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 07:26, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
Exactly. I don’t see why Standard English is idiomatic. — Ungoliant (falai) 07:36, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
I mean I don't see a definition for standard Spanish names in dictionaries but there is "Standard English". --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 07:44, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

Delete. A linguistic definition of standard is needed, since its technical definition appears in linguistic dictionaries and glossaries.

Can someone provide a good link to WT:Lemming principle? I hate it when I can’t find guidelines that specifically support other editors’ arguments and really exist. Michael Z. 2014-03-26 17:00 z

The lemming test is one of several potentially (though not necessarily) persuasive tests, outlined at WT:IDIOM, based on simple precedent / examination of which entries have survived RFD in the past and what arguments were made in favour of them. - -sche (discuss) 18:57, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
A brief discussion of formalizing and automaticizing the lemming principle for inclusion decisions is at WT:BP#Proposal: Use Lemming principle to speed RfDs. DCDuring TALK 19:20, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
Thank you. So it appears to me that #Lemming identifies a principle that has been applied, but makes no recommendation for applying or disregarding it in specific cases. Is that a fair interpretation? Michael Z. 2014-03-27 15:38 z
That's right, I think. The proposal.is an attempt to give it a formal definition for a limited purpose. It is mach like many of the list of idiomaticity indicators advanced by Pauley. It is just particularly easy to implement at any of several levels of inclusion on the list of lemmings. —This unsigned comment was added by DCDuring (talkcontribs).
  • Keep. Why is it "Standard English" and not "standard English"? Furthermore, in Standard English at OneLook Dictionary Search, Oxford Dictionaries (not OED), AHD, Collins, Macmillan, and even Merriam-Webster's have the term. One semantic quirk of the term "Standard English" might be that it is not English as prescribed by a regulatory body. As for Received Standard, I would not know what it is from looking at received and standard, yet in Received Standard at OneLook Dictionary Search, fewer dictionaries have it, including Merriam-Webster's. --Dan Polansky (talk) 09:17, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

Kept for lack of consensus to delete. bd2412 T 16:13, 2 September 2014 (UTC)


Uncommon misspelling of ânion. — Ungoliant (falai) 03:41, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Is this not a matter for RFV? Keφr 07:49, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
I don’t think so. But move it there if you want to, I don’t care. — Ungoliant (falai) 08:06, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
Any supporting evidence? --Dan Polansky (talk) 06:49, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
Some data: Google Books Pt aniôn: 15 hits; Google Books Pt ânion: 2,470 hits; Google books hit ratio: 164. Since the absolute numbers leading to the ratio are rather low, it is hard to judge. Furthermore, some of these allegged 15 hits are clear scannos. This spelling may even be hard to attest. --Dan Polansky (talk) 08:15, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

April 2014[edit]


  • RFD-sense: A fictional city, the hometown of Batman. (Inserted later.) --Dan Polansky (talk) 18:19, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

I'd expected to find at least a couple of citations that could support a sense like "A crime-ridden fictional city where the Batman comics are set" by comparing a real crime-ridden city to the fictional one, but surprisingly, I can't find anything like that. Therefore, this seems to fail WT:FICTION. Smurrayinchester (talk) 17:46, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

Should this be an RFV? But given the choice, delete all such fancruft. Equinox 17:50, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Delete, Batman's home town is Gotham City anyway, not just Gotham. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 18:55, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
    • "When Gotham City is ashes, you have my permission to die"? I guess it fails WT:FICTION anyway, though we could move this to RFV to keep obnoxious bureaucrats our consciences silent... Keφr 17:33, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
Delete per nom. — Ungoliant (falai) 19:52, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
This might be citable.
  1. [1] I don't think she's saying New York City is like New York City. Esp. because of the Star Wars reference, I think she's comparing it to Gotham City..
  2. [2] Because of the crowds and police, I suspect he's comparing London to Gotham City. Bit ambiguous to me, though.
  3. [3] May not qualify, but not far off.
I'd suggest RFV. DAVilla 20:39, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
I can't see the quote at the third link you gave, but in the first I think she's saying the apartment felt like a log cabin in the middle of the big city and is using Gotham to mean NYC as the big, bad city. But I don't think she's thinking of Batman's Gotham City at all. The second quote might be referring to Batman's city, especially since the guy's name is Robin, but it could really equally well be referring to NYC. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 21:04, 26 April 2014 (UTC)


The plural of corgi in Welsh is corgwn without the circumflex i.e. not *corgŵn. You can look it up in the Welsh Academy Dictionary and the National Terminology Portal. It follows the pattern of other "dogs" e.g. helgwn "hounds", milgwn "greyhounds", dwrgwn "otters", morgwn "dogfish", celwyddgwn "liars" etc. Llusiduonbach (talk) 16:01, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

The Geiriadur Prifysgol Cymru has a cite for Cor’gŵn from 1630, so it may be worth keeping this as a {{nonstandard spelling of}} or {{obsolete spelling of}} or the like. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 14:47, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

dative of purpose[edit]

SOP. This is no dictionary material. --Fsojic (talk) 18:28, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

It is part of a set of correlative terms: the types of dative cases. DCDuring TALK 22:44, 27 April 2014 (UTC)
Keep. There are also dative of benefit, ethic dative, etc. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 06:31, 3 June 2014 (UTC)
Keep. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 23:02, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
  • RFD kept per consensus; on the most pesimistic reading, no consensus for deletion after months elapsed. --Dan Polansky (talk) 08:17, 30 August 2014 (UTC)


Gerund? It doesn't have a plural or anything to distinguish it meaningfully from the verb. Or am I wrong on this, in which case every single present participle, even e.g. "defragmenting", should have a noun section of this kind? Seems silly. Equinox 15:47, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

  • Keep: The reason you don't find a plural is that greenlining is usually used with a definite article, i.e. "the greenlining of ...". As for your second sentence, a) not every present participle is used as a noun in common parlance, and b) the ones that are SHOULD have noun definitions Purplebackpack89 (Notes Taken) (Locker) 16:00, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
    • Actually, all -ing forms are both gerunds and present participles. What seems silly is calling them all present participles alone when actually they're both. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 16:02, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
      • I agree with Angr, but it might not be practical if we do it this way. After all, the same form can also be used as an adverb: Sitting here, I can't help but wonder.... —CodeCat 16:23, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
        • I think that in the sense you described, sitting is a verb Purplebackpack89 (Notes Taken) (Locker) 16:36, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
          • Since when do verbs modify clauses like adverbs? —CodeCat 16:43, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
            • Since when does your case show an -ing-form modifying a clause? Consider: "Sitting there, I viewed the car." and "Sitting there, the car was viewed by me." In the second case, the natural, native interpretation is that it was the car that was "sitting". DCDuring TALK 16:55, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
              • And in that case, "was sitting" is the present progressive form of sit. But we've gone off-topic. The topic is that this and other gerunds should be kept if used in common parlance (and therefore attestable) Purplebackpack89 (Notes Taken) (Locker) 17:05, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
        • I'm not convinced that sitting is an adverb in "Sitting here, I can't help but wonder." I think "sitting here" is an adjective (as all participles are) modifying "I"; after all, sitting is describing a property of the speaker, not the manner of her wondering (or the manner of her inability to help wondering). It's like disappointed in "Disappointed, he went back home" or "He went back home disappointed", which are different from "He went back home disappointedly." I have no particular objection to listing both the present participle and the gerund under a ===Verb=== header (categorized as verb forms); I merely object to persistently omitting the gerund sense from -ing forms. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 18:05, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
          • It's debatable whether in the example above "sitting" is an adjectival participle or an an adverbial participle. Same goes for something like this: "She fell, screaming, down the rabbit hole." I think the best way to analyze it is as an adverb that describes the subject's state while performing the action. --WikiTiki89 18:20, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
            • Another clear example of why it must be an adverb is "It is not good to eat walking.", because the subject that "walking" would refer to is not even mentioned in the sentence. --WikiTiki89 18:27, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
              • It's also fairly easy to see by adding "while". "While sitting", "while walking" and so on. This makes it more obvious that we're dealing with a subordinate clause that expresses time or circumstance, which behaves syntactically as an adverb within the overall sentence. A good way to see this with any phrasal part of speech or subordinate clause is to replace it with an interrogative for which the phrase is the answer, or alternative a demonstrative. In this case, the question must be "when" (in the meaning of "in what case/circumstance" or "at what time"), and the demonstrative can be either "then" (in that case) or "now" (at this time). For Angs example with "disappointed", the question is "how", and the demonstrative is "so", "thus" or "like that". These are all clearly adverbs, which means that the original phrase must be as well. —CodeCat 19:21, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
              • (edit conflict) Lest we forget, this RfD is about a noun sense, not an adjective or adverbial sense. This and other gerunds can function as both noun and verb senses, and definitions should be created accordingly Purplebackpack89 (Notes Taken) (Locker) 19:27, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
    The discussion is confusing word class and function. The existence of the adverbial usage of Thursday in "He left Thursday" does not require us to have an adverb PoS section in [[Thursday]]. Just because we are confused on this doesn't mean we should confuse our users. DCDuring TALK 19:25, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
    I don't believe walking or Thursday are adverbs in those senses...walking is a verb and Thursday is an object (consider the the proper way to say those things are "It is not good to eat while you are walking" and "He left on Thursday". In either case, this RfD is not about an adverb, but a noun, and no one has yet to give a valid reason why the word is used improperly as a noun and/or should be deleted. I have no intention of adding an adverbial sense, even if I did believe one existed Purplebackpack89 (Notes Taken) (Locker) 19:31, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
    If there was such a word as Thursdaywalking, it could be a gerund. However, the word would have to exist before it could be classified. bd2412 T 21:04, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
    I was concerned with CodeCat's introduction of the idea of an -ing-form of a verb generating an adverb PoS because it might be construed as adverbial. I don't recall anyone else introducing or advocating that idea.
As to the matter at hand, if an -ing-form of a verb can be found in the plural (rantings) or modified by a determiner (much ranting), we have been declaring it to be a noun even if, as in the case of ranting there is no distinct meaning in the alleged noun, apart from aspect. I think the noun PoS is a distraction. IMO, we would be better off creating and applying a template for English ing-forms that conveyed the idea that such forms were both nominals (gerunds) and participles (inflected forms of verbs also serving as modifiers of nouns).
Further, just as the PoS header "Prepositional phrase" eliminated the need to have essentially duplicative definitions under "Adjective" and "Adverb", a PoS header for -ing-forms would also eliminate duplication, though at a price of causing occasional users confusion not guaranteed to be meliorated by a linked definition in Appendix:Glossary. DCDuring TALK 21:30, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
Having a gerund template is probably a good idea, so long as we count definite and indefinite articles as determiners Purplebackpack89 (Notes Taken) (Locker) 23:55, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
Some count the articles as determiners. I was focused on the uncountable senses that -ing-forms can have, which are associated with determiners like much and little. Some define determiners broadly to include the articles, others chop determiners into many classes, based on various differences in their usage properties. It's not a debate I'd care to pursue until it proved important lexicographically. DCDuring TALK 01:22, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
If "a" or "the" is used properly in front of a word ending in -ing, it is a noun and that sense should be kept Purplebackpack89 (Notes Taken) (Locker) 02:08, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
I disagree. In "feed the starving", "starving" is an adjective. --WikiTiki89 02:19, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
No, it's a noun, because it is preceded by a definite article, and there is no noun for it to modify. Its Dutch equivalent has singular and plural forms ("starving" is implicitly plural), and can have genders. It's a noun. —CodeCat 03:18, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
Haven't we had this discussion hundreds of times? It's an adjective used in place of a noun. Whether you call it a noun or noun is irrelevant, it's still an adjective. Any adjective can be used this way. --WikiTiki89 03:45, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
CGEL calls it a "fused-head" construction, something both determiners and adjectives are capable of, which behaves as a nominal. DCDuring TALK 04:14, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
Yes, and the important point here is that it's not a gerund, but a participle. --WikiTiki89 04:18, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
Here, here, and here greenlining is a gerund, not a participle. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 21:51, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
I agree with that. --WikiTiki89 02:41, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
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  • This should be closed as keep as it has run for ~3 months and no one other than the nominator has expressed a deletionist opinion. Purplebackpack89 16:50, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Kept, no consensus to delete. bd2412 T 17:30, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

May 2014[edit]


Discussion moved from User talk:Angr#-si.
Hello, yes i think so. « si » is not a suffixe, it's a grammatical nonsense. I have too baad english. I give the reasons to you in italian. La particella « si » non é un suffisso, è piuttosto un pronome enclitico, come le particelle pronominali atone mi, ti, ci, vi, lo, la, ne. Riferimenti : Si personale ; il verbo ; il pronome personale ; coniugazione pronominale o riflessiva. Italian pleasure is to acculate personnal pronoun. Just see dirmelo (tell me it) it's an enclise of pronoun mi and article lo and « melo » is not a suffixe. And you can find many exemples of this kind of word : dirglielo (dire+gli+lo), dircelo (dire+ci+lo), dirgliene (dire+gli+a+ne). It will be very difficult for good comprehension of italian if you don't integrate the special maner to use personnal pronoun. it's better way to say the enclise form on the article si. I hope i was clear in my explications. Best regards. - 13:57, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
If it's a particle or a pronoun, not a suffix, the thing to do is to replace the line ===Suffix=== with ===Particle=== or ===Pronoun=== and {{head|it|suffix}} with {{head|it|particle}} or {{head|it|pronoun}}. But deleting the whole entry without putting the information somewhere else is simply destructive. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 14:04, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
Excuse me, I am taking part in your conversation, it is already very well explained in section Italian si (see part 3 « si passivante) ». You can actually remove the suffix -si which does not exist in Italian. It's only an enclitic form appears after the verb as explained in the article « si ».
When I get a chance, I'll start a deletion discussion for -si. It shouldn't be deleted without wider discussion. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 15:07, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Thank you to kc_kennylau for initiating this RFD. The OP's "yes i think so" is a response to the automatic edit summary of my revert here. I do think the anons make a good case that -si isn't a suffix but an enclitic pronoun and that the entry at si should be sufficient, but I do want to submit this to wider discussion rather than just deleting it tout court. I'd also like someone who knows Italian to look at the two entries and see if there's anything at -si that can usefully be merged to si before the former gets deleted (assuming it does). —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 17:18, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Keep, but convert the POS to pronoun and the definition to something like {{form of|enclitic form|si|lang=it}}. A hyphen before a term means the term is spelt without a space between itself and the preceding word, not necessarily that it is a suffix. — Ungoliant (falai) 17:44, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
Delete, and also -arsi, -ersi and -irsi. In fact, italian verb (e.g. : « dire ») is in a lexical domain and « dirsi » is in a fonctionnal domain. The lexical verbs are associated with a position for clitic pronouns (proclitic or enclitic). As described above, clitic constructions and especially clitic climbing is an essential part of italian grammar. It's an innovating nonsense to summarize this complexity in a false item -si. This type of article can only lead readers to be in the wrong and to confound with a suffix. — Elbarriak (talk) 16:16, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
Catalan has similar enclitic particles, but our entries for them are at the hyphenless forms. See se etc. —CodeCat 14:14, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
Delete. I'd be ok with what Ungoliant MMDCCLXIV says if it were only used in compounds, but it isn't. Renard Migrant (talk) 18:38, 27 May 2014 (UTC)


Sense of “To designate an area as suitable for profitable real-estate lending and property insurance” is redundant to “To ease access to services (such as banking, insurance, or healthcare) to residents in specific areas.” Purplebackpack89 (Notes Taken) (Locker) 20:48, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

The broader sense is unsupported, which is why it is RfVed. The new, narrower sense has three citations. If the broader sense is actually attestable, then of course it stays. The narrower sense is the original definition, going back at least to the 1960s. The extension to other services, if attestable at all, is certainly newer, which lexical information is most readily displayed using {{defdate}} with separate definitions. DCDuring TALK 21:51, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
The senses are essentially the same, therefore both senses can be supported by any of the citations provided. The only difference between the definitions is that the correct one (mine) is about residents GETTING stuff, while the incorrect one (yours) is about banks GIVING stuff. Purplebackpack89 (Notes Taken) (Locker) 22:49, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
Transitivity needs to be dealt with here. One sense suggests the verb applies to an area (which agrees with the citations) while the other suggests it applies to a service. Can you "greenline the banking in Ontario", or would it be "a bank that greenlines Ontario"? Equinox 22:54, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
First off, it would help if you said which was which. Secondly, I'm not seeing that. They both talk about areas and services Purplebackpack89 (Notes Taken) (Locker) 23:08, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
If you can't tell which is which, then you are proving my point that the transitivity needs to be specified! Equinox 00:53, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
  • One more thing: in this sense, the word "profitable" is not supported by the citations. What is supported is THAT more services are provided, not WHY they are Purplebackpack89 (Notes Taken) (Locker) 23:08, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
  • I think this is really a debate about how to word the definition, rather than about the existence of one or the other variant of the same thing. --WikiTiki89 23:10, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
    Yeah, DCDuring should never have added a second definition and should have started a discussion on the article's talk page about the definition rather than an RfV of a definition that was correct, but that he didn't like. But he didn't, so here we are. Purplebackpack89 (Notes Taken) (Locker) 23:27, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
    I'm not really interested in gum-flapping. I'm interested in citations, empirical support instead of verbosity. I usually descend to verbosity only as a last resort, usually when others fail to provide empirical support for their questionable positions. DCDuring TALK 00:21, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
    You have three citations that support either definition, there's no need to accuse me of gum-flapping. THIS isn't an RfV anyway, so citations schmitations. If more citiations are needed (again, the citations in there support either definition), I have at least a week to find them, during which I can do as much gum-flapping or whatever you call it as I want Purplebackpack89 (Notes Taken) (Locker) 00:33, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
    There is NO EMPIRICAL SUPPORT for the extension of meaning beyond real-estate loans and property insurance. You have admitted to only having a symmetry argument (from the antonym), which symmetry argument has no support in WT:CFI. I rest your case. DCDuring TALK 00:44, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
    Um, you don't get to rest my case. This is the request for deletion of YOUR definition, not the request for verification of MINE. It's embarrassing that you haven't made that distinction, nor frankly provided any argument why your definition should be kept. Tearing down my definition won't save your own. I again remind you that while citations might be preferable, I don't have to cite it this very minute. Purplebackpack89 (Notes Taken) (Locker) 00:52, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
    I was (foolishly) responding to your off-topic objection to my decision not to use Talk:greenline as a venue. That was the case previously rested.
    The second definition is not redundant to the first as it has a materially narrower scope, as mentioned above. No other reason for deletion has been presented. I hereby rest your RfD case. DCDuring TALK 01:23, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
    You don't get to arbitralily decide that a deletion discussion of a definition you wrote it over, sorry. That's not how it works. Editors other than I have questioned your decision to do things in the manner in which you did, and you really have yet to offer a reasonable explanation for that as well. So we're going to keep talking. Purplebackpack89 (Notes Taken) (Locker) 18:29, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
    @Purplebackpack89, It didn't help that you duplicated the discussion here at RFD (when it could have been resolved at RFV), and then blamed DCDuring when he made a comment on one page rather than the other. --WikiTiki89 22:51, 8 May 2014 (UTC)


Sense: "a tram or bus number 1". Actually, you could refer in this way to television or radio stations, highways, rooms, seats, people even (google:"jedynka na liście"). Anything with a number designation can be referred to with a noun naming the number (or just the numeral, if you are careless enough). An alternative would be to broaden the sense to include this metonymic usage, but is it worth it? Compare Talk:A cup. Keφr 20:12, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

I agree that this does not seem to be an instance of metonymy that merits a sense. Further I don't think a general metonymic sense should be included for every number, letter, color, etc in every language. OTOH. I wish I had something other than my intuition to rely on to discriminate inclusion-worthy metonymy from exclusion-worthy metonymy. DCDuring TALK 16:11, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
I would rephrase and fix the definition to have a broader noun sense (derived from the numeral - "by extension") but keep. No other sense seems to cover this. I didn't give it a lot of thought, though. Thinking fivesome - piątka, pięcioro? In Russian too, when someone says - сади́сь на едини́цу (sadísʹ na jedinícu), not sure if it's obvious to a learner that they mean "take number one (tram, bus, etc.)". --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 07:27, 13 May 2014 (UTC)
How about a usage note? Keφr 07:45, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
I think the best way is to keep the sense "number one" (expanded). It may cover some other cases, not transportation. I have also added this sense to едини́ца (jediníca), pls take a look. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 22:51, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
Keep the sense 'a tram or bus no. "1"' of a Polish entry, but probably make it broader; no other sense currently in the entry does the job. --Dan Polansky (talk) 15:10, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

subito accelerando[edit]

SOP. We already have appropriate English-language entries for both subito and accelerando; musical terms like this can be combined freely (subito piano, subito fortissimo, subito presto, etc.) and it is unnecessary to list them all. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 13:51, 16 May 2014 (UTC)


I would like to request the restoration, in some form, of mahā, the transliteration of the Sanskrit महा (great). In the course of fixing disambiguation links to this title on Wikipedia, I have found many uses of mahā with this meaning. It is similarly widely used in books. However, searching for it here takes the reader to maha, which has no information on the Sanskrit meaning of the word. Cheers! bd2412 T 17:54, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

We don't do Sanskrit romanised forms. If you want to find a term using this transliteration - 1. paste/type it in the search window and linger to see suggestions, 2. select containing mahā from the bottom and click enter/double-click. A Search results page will appear 3. "Search in namespaces:" check "None" first, then check (Main). This will shorten your search to the main namespace and click "Search". again. महत् appears the 4th in the results. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 02:08, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
I don't think that sort of advice is going to reach the average reader, who is more likely to either type maha into the window, or to type/paste in mahā and hit enter, which will take them to maha. I'm not sure why we wouldn't "do" this unusually well attested romanization. If someone sees this word in English text, they should be able to find it defined here. bd2412 T 02:55, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
(E/C)I was just giving you a technical advice how to reach the entry currently, since searching in Wiktionary and search results keep changing. There's no policy on romanised Sanskrit, AFAIK, even if romanisations are attested, they are not in the native script. E.g. ghar is an attestable transliteration of Hindi घर but we only have घर (there's Irish but no Hindi), yeoksa is an attestable transliteration of Korean 역사 but we only have 역사. I'm just stating the fact, so if mahā is created, any admin may delete it on sight. The policies can be created and changed, though. There are romanisations for some languages with complex scripts. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 03:19, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
We could add matching transliterations to the {{also}} templates. As for whether this entry should be restored, WT:About Sanskrit#Transliterated entries bans transliteration entries, so I oppose unless the Sanskrit editing community decides to change that. — Ungoliant (falai) 03:18, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
The use of {{also}}, as now at maha, seems like a decent idea that respects our prejudices and yet offers the more persistent users at least a way of finding native script entries that provide a useful definition for the transliteration they may have come across, the Wiktionary definition for which they may not find by direct search. DCDuring TALK 03:40, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
I personally have no objections to redirects. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 03:47, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
A redirect from mahā to महा would be fine with me, so long as there are no other meanings of mahā. bd2412 T 12:17, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
I think we should reconsider permitting Latin-alphabet entries for Sanskrit, even if all they say is "Romanization of महा". We already allow Latin-alphabet entries for Pali, Gothic, and some other ancient languages that are usually encountered in Romanization in modern editions. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 12:27, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
Is it used as a word in any language? Renard Migrant (talk) 18:24, 27 May 2014 (UTC)
According to Google Books, it appears in about 150,000 books. bd2412 T 22:43, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
If it's used as an English word or any other language, it may get an English or other entry. For romanised Sanskrit, I'm afraid it's a policy question, you'll have to start a separate discussion or a vote. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 22:53, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
Alternative form of maha (four) in Tahitian. — Ungoliant (falai) 00:01, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
I would like to see a discussion or policy that says that romanizations of Sanskrit are disallowed. Until then, I consider the above statement "We don't do Sanskrit romanised forms" unsubstantiated. In fact, Wiktionary:Votes/pl-2011-08/Romanization of languages in ancient scripts resulted in 7:4 for the proposal that "If an ancient, no longer living language was written in a script that is now no longer used or widely understood, and it was not represented in another script that still is used or widely understood, then romanizations of its words will be allowed entries." (I wrote 7:4 rather than 8:4, since Ruakh only supported for Gothic.). A subsequent vote Wiktionary:Votes/pl-2011-09/Romanization of languages in ancient scripts 2 unanimously expressly allowed romanizations for Etruscan, Gothic, Lydian, Oscan, and Phoenician.
I found Wiktionary:Beer_parlour/2013/August#Sanskrit_in_Latin_script?. There, couple of people support allowing Sanskrit romanizations, including Ivan Štambuk (apparently), Angr, Dan Polansky (me), and Eiríkr Útlendi, where Ivan reported User:Dbachmann to support including Sanskrit romanizations as well; opposition seems to include Liliana; Chuck Entz is unclear. --Dan Polansky (talk) 09:33, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
I don't know much about Sanskrit, but I do know that there are tens of thousands of books that use the mahā (in that script) to signify a specific word with a specific meaning. I'm not about to suggest that we incorporate the whole transliterated Sanskrit corpus, but it seems absurd to refuse to have a definition for a word used as widely as this one. bd2412 T 15:14, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
I think we should continue to have a consistent (uniform) policy towards romanized Sanskrit. At the moment, that policy is to exclude it. I wouldn't mind reversing that policy and allowing romanized Sanskrit to be entered similarly to romanized Gothic or pinyin Chinese, and the preceding comments suggest that enough other people feel the same way that we should probably have a vote.
Allowing some romanized of Sanskrit words and not others according to some arbitrary threshold such as "n Wiktionary users think this word is important" or "[we think] this word is used in x books (where x is some very high number, like 10 000)" does not strike me as a workable state of affairs. Google Books' raw book counts are unreliable, as are its attempts to restrict searching to particular languages, so although we might decide to include only romanizations used in e.g. more than 10 000 books, we have no easy way of ascertaining whether or not a romanization actually meets that threshold.
Even if we continue to exclude romanized Sanskrit, it might be possible to cite mahā as a loanword in some language, if it is really as common as has been suggested. - -sche (discuss) 17:11, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
What evidence supports the hypothesis that the current policy is to exclude romanized Sanskrit? Or, put differently, what makes you think and say that the policy is to exclude it? --Dan Polansky (talk) 20:12, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
See WT:ASA. — Ungoliant (falai) 20:16, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
Wiktionary:About Sanskrit is not a policy; it is a policy draft. Furthermore, this is not evidence; a discussion or a vote is evidence of policy. The draft says "Entries written in IAST transliterations shall not appear in the main namespace." which was added in diff. The first edit I can find to that effect is diff, before which the page said "If entries are made under the IAST orthographic transliteration, they should use the standard template {{temp|romanization of}} to reference the Devanagari entry." Since none of the diffs refer to a discussion or a vote, they are illegitimate as means of policy making. --Dan Polansky (talk) 20:31, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
Draft or not, excluding transliterated Sanskrit is the common practice. Start a discussion if you want to change that, or continue refusing to believe it, I don’t care. — Ungoliant (falai) 21:48, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
I asked "What evidence ...". If you had no answer to that question, you did not need to answer; the question was directed to -sche anyway. --Dan Polansky (talk) 05:42, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
If you really want evidence, look for RFD archives of romanised Sanskrit entries. I’m familiar with your strategy of asking people to waste their time looking for this or that and then finding some excuse for why what they found is not valid or outright ignoring it. I’m going to act like CodeCat and not waste my time; as I said, you can continue refusing to believe it. — Ungoliant (falai) 10:32, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
Putting aside the outcomes of previous discussions, what is the reason for not having entries for such things? We are talking about a well-attested word that readers may well look to us to define. bd2412 T 16:21, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
I think the logic is that, insofar as we hold that Sanskrit is not written in the Latin script, mahā is not a Sanskrit word. Compare: insofar as Russian is not written in the Latin script, soyuz is not a Russian word. And mahā (great) and soyuz (union) have not been shown to be English words, or German/Chinese/etc words. If mahā is not a word in any language, it is both outside our stated scope ("all words in all languages") and not technically includable anyway : what L2 would it use?
In contrast, महा (mahā) is a Sanskrit word, and is included, and союз#Russian is included.
That said, we have made exceptions for some languages, e.g. Japanese and Gothic, and we have said in effect "even though this language is not natively written in the Latin script, we will allow soft-redirects from the Latin script to the native script for all the words in this language which we include." (Note this is very different from your statement of "I'm not about to suggest that we incorporate the whole transliterated Sanskrit corpus, but [... only] a word used as widely as this one.") I think one could make a strong case that we should make a Gothic-style exception for Sanskrit, since Sanskrit, like Gothic (and unlike Russian), is very often discussed/mentioned (whether or not it is used) in the Latin script. - -sche (discuss) 20:17, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
Even if we admit that "mahā is not a Sanskrit word" (and that is rather questionable since it seems to confuse words with their writen forms), it still does not follow that we have a policy that forbids having Sanskrit romanization soft-redirect entries in the mainspace, on the model of Japanese, Chinese and other romanizations (Category:Japanese romaji, Category:Mandarin pinyin). We have had Japanese romanizations for a long time (dentaku was created on 17 August 2005‎), full will definitions or translations, since no rogue oligarch bothered or dared to eradicate them (we still have them, albeit in reduced form). Whether we have a policy could be quite important in a possible upcoming vote about Sanskrit romanization, since it is not really clear what the status quo is. Therefore, it is rather important to avoid misrepresentations (unintentional or otherwise) about there being or not being a policy. As for the amount of Sanskrit romanization in the mainspace, there may well be none, which would be a fairly good sign for there being a common practice of avoiding Sanskrit romanizations, but one has to consider that this could be a result of rogue olicharch actions. Generally speaking, I find it hard to find a reason for having Japanese and Chinese romanizations while avoiding Sanskrit romanizations. --Dan Polansky (talk) 08:25, 3 June 2014 (UTC)
@Ungoliant MMDCCLXIV: Re: "I’m familiar with your strategy of asking people to waste their time looking for this or that ...": Not really. You would be familiar with my strategy of asking people to source their claims, supply evidence, clarify the manner in which they use ambiguous terms or explain themselves. Since you already know this strategy (as you say), since you don't like it, and since the question was not directed at you, you should have spared yourself the trouble and avoid answering the question (about evidence for there being policy as opposed to common practice or a draft page that anyone can edit regardless of consensus) that you did not intend to really answer anyway. --Dan Polansky (talk) 07:51, 3 June 2014 (UTC)
I did intend to answer. Not for your benefit, but for that of others who may otherwise be fooled by you into thinking that adding romanised Sanskrit is totally OK. — Ungoliant (falai) 13:00, 3 June 2014 (UTC)
I still see no rationale for excluding a widely used romanization that readers are likely to come across and want defined. Some justification beyond the naked assertion of policy or the momentum of past exclusions. bd2412 T 14:01, 3 June 2014 (UTC)
AFAICS, adding romanised Sanskrit is totally OK; there is no discussion or vote the outcome of which is that Sanskrit romanizations shall be excluded from the mainspace. --Dan Polansky (talk) 15:02, 3 June 2014 (UTC)
@BD, re "I still see no rationale": I just explained one rationale (mahā is not a word in any language).
The previous BP discussion linked-to above, and comments in this discussion by people who didn't participate in the previous discussion, suggest that a proposal to allow romanizations of all Sanskrit words would pass. I myself could support such a proposal. I suggest, for the third time, that someone make that proposal.
I do not see any indication that the proposal to allow "widely used romanization[s]" only has gained traction with anyone beyond you and possibly Dan. As you note, quite a lot of momentum is against you: AFAIK, there has never been a language for which we allowed romanizations for only some words according to some threshold of exceptional commonness. AFAIK, there has never even been an alphabetic or abugidic language for which we allowed romanizations for only some words according to the threshold of any citations at all. (If you discovered that one of our Gothic romanizations had 0 attestations at Google Books, Groups, etc, we'd still keep it as long as it was derived from an attested native-script form according to the rules of Wiktionary:Gothic transliteration.)
You could keep trying to overturn this momentum, but — especially given that the only people who still seem to be participating in this discussion are you, me, Ungoliant, and Dan, and we don't seem to be changing each others' minds — I think it would be more productive to grasp the support for allowing all romanized Sanskrit, and run with it. - -sche (discuss) 17:58, 3 June 2014 (UTC)
We generally decide whether any unbroken string of letters is "a word" by looking to see if it is used in print to convey a consistent meaning. We do this because the existence of the word in print is what makes it likely that a reader will come across it and want to know how it is defined, or possibly how it is pronounced, derived, or translated into other languages. There are now a half dozen citations of mahā at Citations:mahā, including several where the word is used in English running text without italicization. In some previous discussions we have used the compromise position of declaring the word to be English, but derived from the language of its original script. I think this is absurd. Is tovarich English, really? bd2412 T 18:33, 3 June 2014 (UTC)
I have posted this at the Beer Parlour. bd2412 T 19:04, 3 June 2014 (UTC)
Yes tovarich is indeed English if it's used in running English text as an English word (for which a citation is provided). Same with mahā - the word originates from Sanskrit but it's not a Sanskrit word in the context of provided citations - it's an English word now because it's used in English. --09:57, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Keep mahā as an IAST transliteration of the Sanskrit महा. (To make my stance clear to a prospective closing admin; my reasoning is above.] --Dan Polansky (talk) 08:46, 27 July 2014 (UTC)


This covers both the prefix and its category:

I added this based on a dictionary but two other users have pointed out that this isn't really a prefix and words derived from stf should be described as blends rather a prefix + X combination. This makes sense, so these two should probably be deleted. - AdamBMorgan (talk) 11:07, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

We are actually arguing with the mighty OUP by calling this not a prefix, since they call it one in their Brave New Words (admittedly a populist spin-off and not quite the OED). But I still feel it's too narrow and specialised to be really prefix-like. Probably delete. But thanks Adam for adding the various related words, which seem quite attestable in fandom. Equinox 19:55, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
Delete. The examples in the entry don't even use this prefix: stfandom is st- + fandom, not stf- + *andom. - -sche (discuss) 17:09, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

nadgorliwość jest gorsza od faszyzmu[edit]

This is defined as a Polish proverb, but does not seem to be one. google books:"nadgorliwość jest gorsza od faszyzmu" finds only 6 hits, in only 4 of which the phrase is actually shown by Google. To be a proverb, a phrase must have many more durably archived hits, I believe. --Dan Polansky (talk) 20:10, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

Plus they they took a concise, direct phrase and gave it a rambling, vague heap of verbiage instead of a definition. Chuck Entz (talk) 07:26, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
Keep. There is no exceptional criterion for proverbs, and the variant nadgorliwość gorsza od faszyzmu is listed in at least one published glossary of proverbs. — Ungoliant (falai) 04:31, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
If it cannot be demonstrated to be a proverb, then this is simply a sum of parts sentence. The published glossary is this, right? The typesetting looks extremely cheep, so it is as "published" as any random web page, and its being "published" in this way does not matter at all. --Dan Polansky (talk) 08:00, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

June 2014[edit]

lado bom[edit]

Lado (side: one possible aspect of a concept, person or thing) + bom (good).

Many SOPs can be and are formed with this sense of lado: lado bom (good side), lado ruim (bad side), lado mau (bad/evil side), lado divertido (fun side), lado chato (boring side), lado difícil (difficult side), lado fácil (easy side), etc. — Ungoliant (falai) 20:08, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

foder-se para[edit]

The term demands the adverb pouco otherwise has (assumes) a literal meaning "screw yourself by" (to get, or, in name of something or someone) --Tchirruá (talk) 22:33, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

Keep. Usually true, but it is occasionally used without pouco. — Ungoliant (falai) 22:21, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
@Tchirruá: On the other hand, I’ve never seen it not used in the progressive aspect, so maybe it should be moved to estar se fodendo para. What do you think? — Ungoliant (falai) 12:55, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

tvær vikur[edit]

Nominating jointly with...

fjórtán dagar[edit]

These are "two weeks" and "fourteen days" respectively. SOP per #vierzehn Tage above. I've held off on nominating hálfur mánuður ("half month") since it's not clear whether it literally means "half a month", or if it always idiomatically means a fortnight regardless of the length of the month. Any Icelandic speakers able to clarify? Smurrayinchester (talk) 10:59, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Just to make it more fun, bear in mind that there are non-Western calendars (e.g. Hebrew and Hijri) which also have "months", and their lengths are more variable. Equinox 17:00, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
  • I'm not sure there's an Icelandic word for fortnight, and I don't think there is in Norwegian (fjorten dager, to uker in Bokmål), Danish (fjorten dage, to uger) and Swedish (fjorton dagar, två veckor) either. For that reason it may be a good idea to keep these Icelandic phrases. Donnanz (talk) 17:29, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
  • Delete both. The absence of an Icelandic word for fortnight is no reason to violate our own CFI. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 21:22, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
Delete. Unidiomatic sums of parts by their etymology sections’ own admittance. — Ungoliant (falai) 21:23, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
  • Keep, as probably the best Icelandic translations of fortnight. Both entries were created in 2007 by User:BiT, who is a native Icelandic speaker. I often wonder how these sorts of nominations are supposed to improve the dictionary. --Dan Polansky (talk) 07:37, 14 June 2014 (UTC)
  • I have just come across a Nynorsk word "fjortendagar", which is rather interesting. “fjortendagar” in The Nynorsk Dictionary. Donnanz (talk) 10:44, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
Delete both. Just because English has the word fortnight doesn't mean that all languages that don't have such a word need to have entries for "two weeks" or "fourteen days". --WikiTiki89 10:53, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
  • It does seem that fjortendagar is attestable, which would invoke WT:COALMINE if they were in the same language. However, I do not read either Nynorsk or Icelandic, so I don't know offhand what language these cites are in.[4], [5], [6], [7], [8]. bd2412 T 13:53, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

wyjść po angielsku[edit]

wyjście po angielsku[edit]

The minimal idiomatic part is po angielsku (which I now added; improvements to the definition are welcome), because the verb may be replaced with any synonym, like zniknąć, ulotnić się, czmychnąć without any loss of meaning, making this term SOP. (Alternatively, one might consider synonym substitutions as alternative forms of this term, but I think it is not feasible to do so.) Keφr 20:37, 4 June 2014 (UTC)


Discussion moved to Wiktionary:Requests for verification#Topramenesha.
  • Closing as moved to RFV; meanwhile, it failed RFV. --Dan Polansky (talk) 08:37, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

am I right or am I right[edit]

(This discussion should not influence or be influenced by the discussion above.)

I believe this is a snowclone and should be moved to the appendix. Any adjective can be used: "Am I awesome or am I awesome?", "Am I hot or am I hot?", etc. --WikiTiki89 13:54, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

  • Appendicize per WikiTiki. bd2412 T 14:30, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Keep. Unexpectedly common (google:"am I right or am I right", google books:"am I right or am I right"); peculiar to English, since we don't say this in Czech. --Dan Polansky (talk) 17:54, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Keep: It's easily attestible. I'd also take issue with the assertion that any adjective is used this way; most adjectives either don't make sense when you do it, or aren't used that way often enough. Purplebackpack89 14:39, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Keep. Here are some counts: google books:"am i awesome or am i awesome" has 0 hits, google books:"am i hot or am i hot" has 7 hits, google books:"am i great or am i great" has 1 hit, google books:"am i wonderful or am i wonderful" has 1 hit, google books:"am i gorgeous or am i gorgeous" has 2 hits, google books:"am i smart or am i smart" has 8 hits, google books:"am i brilliant or am i brilliant" has 10 hits, google books:"am i wrong or am i wrong" has 7 hits, but one doesn't count. In contrast, the mother google books:"am i right or am i right" has 59,100 hits, including two book titles. So a snowclone appendix makes sense, but the primordial instance should not be buried. Choor monster (talk) 17:08, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
    To be fair, you chose some of the worst examples. google books:"am i good or am i good" gets 494 hits, for example. --WikiTiki89 17:23, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
    I see that some fave fallen for the Google-counts-are-good-enough-for-Wiktionary-work fallacy. Without looking at whether any of the books reported as containing the passage actually contain it, I counted the pages (30 books each in my setup) that have "am I right or am I right". There were 22, the last with fewer than 30. IOW, there are more likely fewer than 700 hits for "am I right or am I right". That takes much of the force away from the relative frequency argument. DCDuring TALK 18:09, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
    OTOH, "am I good or am I good" has 48 hits, a much smaller relative reduction, but very much fewer than "am I right or am I right". OTT(hird)H, Choo monsterr's count yields 35 more and aggregating all possible adjectives would probably yield more, perhaps getting the total above 100. DCDuring TALK 18:16, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
    That'd be 97 more than we need. Purplebackpack89 20:22, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
    We need three to show that a word exists, but the number of hits does not necessarily show idiomacity. A search for "the weather in London" and "your shoes are untied" get hundreds of hits each. bd2412 T 20:28, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
    I have not fallen for any fallacy here. I added numerous citations, so there is no question of WT:CFI as such. I think the SOP question, parallel to the "am I right" above discussion, is a non-starter. So the only question is what this thing is and where do we put it. Wikitiki has proposed that it should be recast as a snowclone. He is 100% correct that it is a snowclone, as the above hits I identified prove (and I did not just look at the numbers, I checked the texts). But the comparative Google Book hits just makes it seem obvious that the version with "right" stands out head and shoulders above the other versions, so it is not merely a snowclone, and belongs in main entry space. As a bonus, the quality of some of the cites is fantastic.
    My earlier hunt for "am I right" cites ran into numerous SOP non-rhetorical examples, and I had to rely on special tricks to find rhetorical cites. Choor monster (talk) 20:54, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
    @Purplebackpack89: This is an RfD discussion, not an RfV.
@Choor monster: It is the relative-frequency argument that you made that I am addressing. You put the 59,100 raw Google Books number forward, to which I strongly object, it being off by a factor of about 85.
There are many snow-clone-type constructions that have similar characteristics with one set of occupants of the slot(s) being much more common than others. In this case there are three slots: 1., the adjective slot occupied by right, 2., the nominal slot occupied by I, and 3., the slot occupied by am. The last slot I'd be willing to stipulate is a copula, but could have a change of tense, while remaining in agreement with the nominal slot occupant. I believe that this expression exists with relatively high frequency in the past tense "Was I right or was I right" as well as with other nominals and some other adjectives. It just seems readily decodable in any of its forms and is far from being a set expression. It is, as the nom said, a snowclone or a construction. I'd be inclined to appendicize it. When I consider all the English entries that have no translations and all the glosses for FL terms that rely on highly polysemic words with no further gloss, I am surprised that folks find the the need to fill Wiktionary with this kind of entry. DCDuring TALK 03:44, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
Because we do not rely on Google hit counts, I see no point in trying to figure out what the true number of unique hits is. I also take it for granted that we all know the numbers are inflated. So I completely miss what point you are making in regards to the hit count. "am I right or am I right" is much more common than a handful of variants, where "right" is altered. I take it for granted that we all agree with this, and the discussion is what do we do with this fact, and not try to actually quantify it.
For the record, google books:"was i right or was i right" returned 5560 hits, the first two were prominent authors (Lawrence Block, Nick Hornby). google books:"is he right or is he right" returned 3 hits, one of which is no good, and google books:"was he right or was he right" returned 5 hits, including, interestingly enough, a 1944 hit, 30 years before the earliest "am I right or am I right" hit that I found.
I am totally mystified by your concern about this kind of entry. We're documenting what twists and turns language has taken, with constraints regarding SOP and durability. Object to this entry on such grounds. Most of the snowclones, by the way, are clearly SOP. "To X or not to X", "I'm an X, not a Y", "you had me at X". Cuteness isn't grounds for inclusion: the instances of "we're off to sue the wizard" and "we're off to see the lizard" I've seen have all been SOP. But "am I right or am I right?" has an extra rhetorical non-SOP edge: despite appearances, it's a bald assertion, not an actual query. Choor monster (talk) 12:47, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
Google counts are relatively accurate for small numbers of hits, but increasingly inaccurate for larger raw counts. For intermediate counts (like 56K) it is not too tedious to get an improved count. Clearly you are making arguments based on relative frequency, so quantitative estimates that are roughly right, though not precise, matter. My mind has not been made up, so I was actually trying to get facts that were not being provided by all those who have made up their minds. If one form of a construction/snowclone is overwhelmingly more common, some tend call it a "set phrase", thereby justifying its inclusion. That is the import of the relative-frequency argument concerning the individual slots in the construction.
I suppose that we are gradually moving toward a practice of including protypical snowclones, no matter how transparent they are. I like to try to be explicit, transparent about such emerging policies, instead of relying on assumptions about implicit premises. Assumptions, at least those that I make, are often wrong. I'm not at all sure that this is a good idea.
This construction's transparency is based on the simple semantics of the logic of being given what is obviously not a real choice by the speaker. The implication is perfectly obvious to anyone past childhood. Delete. DCDuring TALK 14:53, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Although it has just been closed as kept, I want to add a point that has just occurred to me, as it may be about what's actually going on. All our definitions of or, and those in other dictionaries I've looked up, assume the two disjuncts are distinct. The most common word I've seen in several dictionaries involves the presentation of an alternative. Only mathematicians and their close friends mormally allow the two disjuncts to be identical.
  • In other words, as everybody defines "or", the phrase "am I right or am I right" literally makes no sense, like the Chomsky classic "Colorless green ideas sleep furiously". Yet we all know what it means. We would have no trouble understanding the following dialogue: "Come on, wake up!" "Mmmffmmmf" "Wakey wakey!" "Bbbpbbp" "Are you sleeping in this morning or are you sleeping in this morning?" "Rrrrk" The "or" here is a parody of the usual "or", a marker of sarcasm.
  • The issue is really what to make of the tautological "or", compounded by the fact that in English, it's close to non-existent outside of "am I right or am I right". Choor monster (talk) 19:13, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Kept for lack of consensus to delete. bd2412 T 16:00, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

July 2014[edit]

ageless sleep[edit]

Misinterpretation of SOP expressions in poetry by an IP better known for adding bad content to Japanese entries and to entries on magic and deities. Chuck Entz (talk) 20:50, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

No idea. Renard Migrant (talk) 09:23, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
Keep and RfV. It might just be a less-used euphemism for death. DCDuring TALK 15:51, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

eternal sleep[edit]

Same as previous, but also merely a copy of it- even to the point of using the same quote, which doesn't include the entry title. Chuck Entz (talk) 20:56, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

Delete. The sleep is either actual sleep, or a trivial metaphor. The magical cause or mechanism can vary from one story to another. "A magical state of suspended animation" is being too specific. Equinox 10:59, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
No idea. Renard Migrant (talk) 10:25, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
Delete if the creator tries to define a magical sleep. But isn’t it rather a common euphemism of death? — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 15:46, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
Keep A euphemism for death, of uncertain scope of usage beyond Christianity. DCDuring TALK 15:52, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

canine distemper virus[edit]

the viral agent that causes canine distemper. Renard Migrant (talk) 10:25, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

That is not the complete meaning of the term, it is its etymology. As with many vernacular names for organisms, it corresponds to a particular proper noun in taxonomy. It has a generally accepted abbreviation that is in fairly common, though specialized use. It is probably lexical only in the context of veterinary pathology, but we have many, many thousands of entries that have an SoP meaning that is close to and the source of a meaning that is not SoP in a specialized, often technical context. DCDuring TALK 11:28, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
Furthermore, this virus name is retained, at least tentatively, when it is found in other mammals (lions, ferrets, raccoons, stoats, etc), though the illness is not called canine distemper. DCDuring TALK 11:44, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
I think the entry should be moved to Canine distemper virus#Translingual, following the International Committee on Taxonomy of Virusess orthography. DCDuring TALK 18:37, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
I'm very sceptical that the term is translingual. google books:"canine distemper virus" cette, for example, turns up exactly one hit of the term used in French. That search does turn up enough hits of the term used in English to refer to the virus in hamsters and other animals to suggest that you're right that the virus is still called "canine distemper virus" even when it's found in non-canids, but I'm not sure that lends it any idiomaticity, since it's still "the virus that causes canine distemper". (Compare: many "red cars" have silver hubcaps, black or beige or grey seats, etc; their failure to be entirely red does not make "red car" idiomatic.) The point that this is the specific common name for a particular taxonomically identifiable virus is more suggestive of idiomaticity, IMO. - -sche (discuss) 19:23, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
This or the capitalized, ICTV form is a no-brainer as to idiomaticity. It is part of a nomenclature system. Virus naming often adopts English customary names as the formal names of species. As to use in French see this Google Scholar search and German see this one. The yield of valid cites is not too high, so patience or an RfV is required to get definite results. DCDuring TALK 20:47, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
See also [[talk:tobacco mosaic virus]].​—msh210 (talk) 05:23, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

共同通訊社 & 共同通讯社 (Chinese) and 共同通信社 (Japanese)[edit]

Seems sum of parts, and not dictionary material. ---> Tooironic (talk) 06:08, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

  • The Japanese is a proper noun, and thus not SOP. However, whether that proper noun merits an entry, I am uncertain. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 18:30, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
  • I'm sorry but I don't quite understand your logic. Both the Chinese and Japanese are proper nouns, the Chinese is merely a translation of the original Japanese. Xinhua News Agency, France 24 and China Radio International are also proper nouns, and of a similar type, but we don't have entries them - nor should we, arguably, since that's the job of an encyclopedia not a dictionary. Then again we do have British Broadcasting Corporation, but that hasn't been through a deletion request (yet). ---> Tooironic (talk) 09:59, 11 July 2014 (UTC)
  • I'm inclined to keep 共同通信社. It might appear as if a sum of parts that means a certain type of news agencies ("通信社") that are based on joint ("共同") membership or something, while it actually is the name of a particular agency. The possible misinterpretation would motivate us to have an entry for 共同通信社 to explain that it can only be a proper noun in Japanese. Whether to have Xinhua News Agency mentioned above is a different matter, because that term would be unlikely to be mistaken as a general term. I don't have a particular opinion on the other two Chinese entries listed. Whym (talk) 04:48, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
Your initial comment was seems sum of parts, which 共同通信社 demonstrably isn't, as much as it might look like one. That's what I was responding to in the first sentence of my post above. Your second comment, [seems to be] not dictionary material, was what I was responding to in the second sentence of my post above. Does that help make my logic any clearer? (Serious question, no snark intended at all.) Note that my previous post doesn't actually evince any position on whether 共同通信社 merits an entry.
FWIW, looking at this issue again, I lean towards Whym's opinion, in that 共同通信社 does indeed look like it might just be any old 通信社 (tsūshinsha, news agency) that happens to be 共同 (kyōdō, joint or collaborative) in some way -- i.e., it does look like an SOP phrase. However, this term really isn't just an SOP phrase, it's the name of a specific news agency, so perhaps an entry is merited to make that clear: users could conceivably come here looking for this as a term to find in a dictionary. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 22:38, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

gakko and gakkou[edit]

Discussion moved from WT:RFV.
Haplology (talkcontribs) put a note in the two pages asking if we have "to include alternative transcriptions", and I am therefore putting the two pages here for that matter. --kc_kennylau (talk) 11:53, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
Arrowred.png Personally, I must say that romanizing 学校 as gakko instead of ​gakkō is a bit like spelling apple as aple, or ate as at -- it's a misspelling that omits important phonetic information, potentially resulting in a different word altogether. I don't think we have any business including "alternative transcriptions" as a matter of normal policy.
  • [[gakko]] is also a valid romanization of other Japanese words: 楽戸 (gakko, in the Nara period, a kind of private-sector school or house of 雅楽 (gagaku, court music) unaffiliated directly with the official court gagaku office); 合期 (gakko, meeting a deadline; turning out as expected or hoped for, also read as gōgo). As such, I'd be much more tempted to deep-six the "alternative transcription" content and turn that page into a regular romanization entry.
  • [[gakkou]] isn't a valid romanization of any Japanese word (using our modified Hepburn scheme), so my sense would be to delete this altogether. Alternately, if other folks feel this might still be useful to incoming users, at least rework it entirely so it's clearly marked as a misspelling, and so it's not showing up in the index of Japanese nouns. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 22:22, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
This is really an RFD matter... delete both (replacing the first one with the valid content Eirikr mentions). - -sche (discuss) 22:27, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
  • Just think, if Wiktionary:Votes/pl-2014-06/Allowing attested romanizations passes, we'll end up restoring gakkou just a wek from now. :b - -sche (discuss) 16:35, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
    I don't know what you are talking about. Where do you see any attesting quotations of "gakkou" in use to convey meaning? Enjoying setting up straw men much? "gakkou" was sent to RFV, no attesting quotations were provided for the form, so it was deleted, right? --Dan Polansky (talk) 16:46, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
    google books:gakkou has loads of instances of the string gakkou. I argue they're not "uses" of a "word" to "convey meaning", and it seems no-one disagrees with my view, since no-one cited any of those citations when the term was at RFV. Nonetheless, those citations are identical in form to citations which the main proponent of allowing romanizations (BD) has argued are "words used to convey meaning", hence I presume that if the vote to allow romanizations passes, he'll support including gakkou. - -sche (discuss) 17:37, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
    • @-sche: It bears noting that at least some of those hits are likely bogus, like the top title on this page of hits: The Phonology of Hungarian.  :)
    That aside, there have been occasional conversations among us JA editors about what to do with spellings that don't fit the modified Hepburn scheme in use here at EN WT. So far, the general consensus (at least, as I've understood it) has been to remove such entries. The use of ou or uu instead of the macron versions ō and ū is very common online and even in some academia, in part due to the difficulties of inputting macrons using US keyboards. (For those interested, this is sometimes called wāpuro rōmaji or “word-processor romanization”.) Given that we already have a standard for romanized Japanese entries, and given that we already have romanizations for a high percentage of our JA entries (and even the JavaScript tools in place to accelerate their creation), I don't think BD's arguments in favor of including romanizations have much immediate bearing on Japanese -- we're already doing that.  :)
    If folks wish to expand that discussion to include the issues of alternate spellings and what to do with those, I'm happy to engage in that conversation, and if such alternates are deemed entry-worthy, it would be very easy to (re)create the [[gakkou]] entry as a similar {{ja-romanization of}} redirection. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 22:51, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

la mia[edit]

la via[edit]

la ilia[edit]

la sia[edit]

la nia[edit]

As far as I know, any Esperanto adjective can be preceded by the definite article in this way. For example, la granda (the large one), la tia (the one like that) and so on. So I don't think these merit separate entries. —CodeCat 16:39, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

Agreed. Delete all. These are comparable to the Spanish phrases el mío, la suya, etc., which we rightly do not have entries for. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 00:02, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
The French equivalents le mien, la mienne (etc.) all got merged into mien, mienne (etc.) Renard Migrant (talk) 12:19, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
The deletion of the French terms le mien, etc. seems wrong. The French dictionary has them. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 12:26, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
I don't know Esperanto but there's a discussion below about le mien. @TAKASUGI Shinji: could you link us to the dictionary or tell us, which dictionary, if it's a paper one? --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 00:30, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
In Esperanto they are not special, as you can use both mia et la mia. In modern French, however, you use only le mien [9]. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 00:56, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Thanks, interesting that the dictionary's article is for [[mien]], [[mienne]]. I voted "undelete" in the RFD below, please comment there. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 01:23, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

cast a pall[edit]

Our entry for pall#Noun omitted the definition "a sense/feeling of gloom", which I've added.

That definition of pall occurs as subject of verbs like descend, came over, settle, fall, hang, not just as part of cast a pall. No OneLook lemmings follow us in including this.

I will shortly add a usage example for some form of 'cast a pall'. I suggest that this be made a redirect to that definition. DCDuring TALK 01:44, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

Pall appears after verbs like be, throw, put, set, spread, keep, leave in expressions fitting the new definition. DCDuring TALK 02:20, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
It also appears after prepositions. IOW, it is a normal noun in this sense appearing in a range of usages that should clearly show that there is no idiomaticity to cast a pall. DCDuring TALK 02:25, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
Delete per nom. - -sche (discuss) 17:15, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

metaphorical extension[edit]

Listed on RFC. But not convinced it's really a set term. Ƿidsiþ 14:40, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

  • Delete. Seems like an encyclopedic and otherwise transparent combination. bd2412 T 20:41, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

fat as a cow[edit]

fat as a pig[edit]

These are really not idioms but simple comparisons of which you could construct potentially infinite examples of, just by taking any exceptionally large object. -- Liliana 23:28, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

You could replace them with just about any other animal but these two are by far infinitely more common, almost set phrases. No one ever says you're as fat as a rhinoceros...a whale ( when water or the beach is in context) yes, and cow and pig. Leasnam (talk) 23:35, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
Undecided for the moment but there are other, very similar expressions with comparisons, which probably passed RFD or RFV. Is it an RFV case, rather than RFD? I think there is a limited number of animals/things you compare a fat person with. Slavs (at least some Slavic languages) use pigs (male or female varieties) but commonly barrels, e.g. Russian: "толстый как бочка", Polish: "gruby jak beczka". --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 23:39, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
Here are a few from a 1917 dictionary of similes:
  • Fat as a bacon-pig at Martlemas. — Anon.
  • Fat as brawn. — Ibid.
  • Fat as a sheep's tail. — Ibid.
  • A red bag, fat with your unpaid bills, like a landing net. — Dion Boucicault.
  • Fat as Mother Nab. — Samuel Butler.
  • Fat as a whale. — Chaucer.
  • Fat as a barn-door fowl. — Congreve.
  • Fat as seals. — Charles Hallock.
  • Fatte as a foole. — Lyly.
  • As fat as a distillery pig. — Scottish Proverb.
  • As fat as a Miller's horse. — Ibid.
  • Fat as butter. — Shakespeare.
  • Fat as tame things. — Ibid.
  • Fat and fulsome to mine ear
As howling after music. — Ibid.
  • Fat as grease. — Old Testament.
Some would quite likely be from well-known works and therefore would thereby pass RfV without regard to whether they were otherwise common. DCDuring TALK 03:05, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
So, what's your vote on this? Having a variety of similes is not a reason to discard them. Some of the above would be includable, IMO. They are quite useful for language learners, especially the common ones but I'll wait for other opinions. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 03:20, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
Your criterion favoring "common" but not merely attestable similes has nothing to do with WT:CFI. It seems like a BP matter, possibly even a vote. There are lots of amusing similes (happy as Larry, happy as a clam at high tide, happy as a pig in shit) that are common among some groups during some periods. Some of them seem arbitrary (eg "Larry") and thereby possibly idiomatic, others seem to make a great deal of sense, ie, be transparent. But as our coverage is supposed to span a time periods for which we cannot rely on unaided intuition, I think we would need to be able to apply our standard rules of attestation and non-transparency to similes.
Thus I would be happier with happy as Larry than with fat as a pig as an entry. Cassell's Dictionary of Slang (2005) agrees with my inclusion instincts and criteria. DCDuring TALK 04:28, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
Yes, I favour common over temporary expressions. "Happy as Larry" is not very useful for language learners, almost like an in-joke. My mother-in-law liked to say a rhyme здоро́в как Труно́в (zdoróv kak Trunóv) "healthy as Trunov" (referring to a long-time mayor of a city named Trunov who I never knew, implying he's healthy because he is a mayor, probably very corrupt, so he has money to look after himself). It was fun to say this in the family but if I said this to another Russian, they wouldn't have a clue what I'm talking about. Is [[sly as a fox]] idiomatic enough? --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 04:43, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
fat as a pig at OneLook Dictionary Search, as fat as a pig at OneLook Dictionary Search, fat as a cow at OneLook Dictionary Search, as fat as a cow at OneLook Dictionary Search
It's just us and McGraw-Hill's Dictionary of American Idioms and Phrasal Verbs. I'd think we'd be doing language learners a better service if we bothered to translate the entries in Category:English phrasal verbs, but naybe they are too hard. DCDuring TALK 10:21, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Delete both, unless it is shown that they are needed solely as a translation target for an idiom that is uniquely meaningful in some other language (which I doubt). Metaphors are cheaply transparent, unless the asserted comparison does not automatically assume the characteristics of the operative adjective (e.g. fit as a fiddle). bd2412 T 12:58, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Keep similes, or at least high-frequency similes, even if transparent, since they are useful for the encoding direction ("How do I say 'very fat' using a simile?"), and for simile-to-simile translation ("How do I render 'fat as a pig' using a Spanish simile?"). As for the examples listed by DCDuring, I wonder whether they are attested in use to convey meaning; for instance, google books:"Fat as a bacon-pig at Martlemas" does not suggest as much. --Dan Polansky (talk) 16:41, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Delete as obvious SOP. I suggest common similes of this sort be listed in a usage note sub the adjective (or adverb as the case may be, in this case fat, e.g. "Common exemplars for flat, used in similes, are a board (emphasizing lack of protrusions) and a pancake (emphasizing thinness)") and/or in an appendix devoted to such similes.​—msh210 (talk) 19:18, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
    What is the advantage of listing these in usage notes rather than in separate entries, which can be linked to separate translations, which will not necessarily be word-for-word translations? Per fat as a cow, Italian and Polish would be like fat as a barrel. --Dan Polansky (talk) 19:58, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
    I've never heard "happy as Larry" and I would vouch for "happy as a pig in mud" (but not "shit", never heard that before either). Keep. Its a set phrase comparison that has some members (like pig, though not all pigs are fat necessarkly) more transparent than others ( like whale). Comparable to "as hungry as a horse" & "as big as a house" (oh yeah? my house is tiny.) Leasnam (talk) 02:49, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
    Why are we supposed to care whether any individual has not heard of a given expression? DCDuring TALK 05:09, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
You don't. And did I don't see where anyone has asked anyone to. Its an indicator of how common a word or phrase is Leasnam (talk) 11:12, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
Delete per all (Dan Polansky). Renard Migrant (talk) 15:03, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

Deleted. bd2412 T 15:54, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

I'll express my frustration at these successful attempts to remove valid lexicographical content. Before the deletion of fat as a pig, we told our readers how to say this in multiple languages using a simile; now this is gone. A real substantive rationale for this deletion is absent; the only rationale that I see is reduction to rules. People keep on repeating "sum of parts" as if this were a monolingual dictionary. I find the above DCDuring's list of mostly unattested similes particularly disingenuous and objectionable; not only are most of these items unattested but the argument they are used for contradicts WT:CFI#Attestation vs. the slippery slope; as for "Some would quite likely be from well-known works", we now have WT:CFI without the well-known work criterion, via Wiktionary:Votes/pl-2014-03/CFI: Removing usage in a well-known work 3. Also, the nomination is blatantly wrong ("... just by taking any exceptionally large object"); try google:"fat as a mammoth" or google:"fat as a Jupiter". --Dan Polansky (talk) 09:41, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
Restore and keep fat as a pig. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 23:54, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

arfer dda[edit]

Completely SOP; simply arfer (practice, procedure) + dda (good). BigDom 08:43, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Jacob Marley[edit]

"A fictional man" etc. We have a lot of characters from this particular work, for some reason (!): see Category:en:A Christmas Carol. This underwent RFV before and some citations were given. I think them inadequate since they do not show any generic use. I propose deletion because book characters, aside from generic use, are not suitable dictionary content IMO. Equinox 21:57, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Probably all the characters except Scrooge can go, though there may be idiomatic possibilities for the spirits. Purplebackpack89 22:17, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

What about the following quotes:

  • "He would listen for the tinkle of chimes behind him, the hurried wind through louver windows, or the loose strand of a wandering conversation from the house next door, and think that they have come back to warn him, a Jacob Marley to his Scrooge, that reckoning was upon him."[10]
  • "Having been raised from the death of my sin, I often forge new bonds for myself, a Jacob Marley who should no longer be burdened but continues to carry the chains of my own making."[11]
  • "It would have been nice to have had a Jacob Marley who could have run down the rules at the start of the game for me."[12]

Do these count as "generic use"? —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 23:16, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

The first one is clearly referring to the characters in the book, and the second seems to. I don't know about the third. Chuck Entz (talk) 00:41, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
After looking at it in context, I would sat that the third one is referring to Jacob Marley's role in the narrative structure of the book. I think they all are referring to Jacob Marley as a character in the book, rather than as some kind of generic character or archetype, though the second quote is the least explicit about it. Chuck Entz (talk) 01:03, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
The following seems to apply, from Wiktionary:CFI#Fictional_universes: "With respect to names of persons or places from fictional universes, they shall not be included unless they are used out of context in an attributive sense." Examples are in Wiktionary:Criteria_for_inclusion/Fictional_universes. One of them is this: "Irabu had hired Nomura, a man with whom he obviously had a great deal in common, and, who, as we have seen, was rapidly becoming the Darth Vader of Japanese baseball." The "a Jacob Marley" quotes above appear to me very much like "the Darth Vader" in the above quote, although I am not sure what "attributive sense" mentioned in CFI is. --Dan Polansky (talk) 07:45, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
I would say "a Jacob Marley to his Scrooge" is attributive. It's simply extending the metaphor. I don't see how it's a problem if an author does use a name in an attributive sense and goes on to explain it too. Anyway, I've added 3.5 attributive citations. Choor monster (talk) 16:07, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
Now it's 4.5. I added a sports citation that is dead-on imitative of the Darth Vader example. Choor monster (talk) 16:18, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
Would this count?
  • 2012, Brian Norman, Dead Women Talking: Figures of Injustice in American Literature, page 93:
    Nor is she exactly a grand tormentor from beyond, Roy's own Jacob Marley.
Cheers! bd2412 T 16:51, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
One problem I see perusing the quotes is that there doesn't seem to be any agreement on what "Jacob Marley" as a common noun means. Is it a person wearing metaphorical chains? Is it a person with no metaphorical bowels? Is it a miser? Is it someone who warns someone else about the error of his ways? —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 17:17, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
I don't see why this is a problem. We run into the same question with almost any proper noun. Do we worry about the supposedly different meanings between "he spoke in a Darth Vader voice" and the Nomura example above? I'm quite sure the quotation wasn't referring to Nomura's breathing! Consider words like Dickensian. It can be used to refer to poverty, time/place, writing styles, plot twists, and so on. (We've split the meaning in two. It took four years and a bit of edit-warring.) There are exceptions: Scrooge and Tiny Tim are quite narrow. And when I created Ludlumesque, I didn't notice at first there were precisely two senses as to how it was used. Choor monster (talk) 21:18, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
Quite apart from "Jacob Marley" I think this is an important point. If (say) Bloggs is a famous author who wrote surrealistic beatnik novels about lonely poor people, then does "Bloggsian" suggest surrealism, beatnik-ism, loneliness, poverty, or a combination of some or all, and how is this to be defined? "Like the writings of Bloggs" is sufficient, but useless to somebody who hasn't read the books and wants to interpret the word. P.S. Jordanesque is my fave eponym. Equinox 21:30, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
Checking what the OED did with Dickensian, I noticed that our split in two is one sense there. But they had a noun sense (with three cites!) that we missed. I added the noun. Choor monster (talk) 21:44, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
I'm not bothered by the idea of a definition that lays out the general characteristics associated with the term, and then notes that the term is used to describe a person or thing sharing any number of those characteristics. bd2412 T 02:40, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

In my opinion, CFI are wrong when they require "used out of context in an attributive sense". I would exclude all these names, but I would include "single word" well-known names, considered as having entered the general vocabulary. But first name + last name names cannot have a linguistic interest. All these names, either fictional or not, including yours, can be used out of context in an attributive sense, but it only depends on encyclopedic characteristics. As it's a general rule, and no linguistic data (other than data about the first name and data about the last name) can be provided, they should be excluded. Lmaltier (talk) 18:02, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Your opinion isn't policy, so your comment serves no point. Your ideas regarding linguistic interest are purely your own. Of course every name can be used in an attributive sense, the question is which ones have in fact been used so.
I noticed that the existing citations for Tiny Tim were entirely non-attributive, yet it somehow passed RFV? I added 4 on the Citations page, all out of context attributive. Choor monster (talk) 20:23, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
Our policy is based on our editors' opinions, so yes, his comment is very much to the point. Ƿidsiþ 11:32, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
This discussion is whether Jacob Marley meets existing policy. Someone's wish for a different policy is completely pointless here. Choor monster (talk) 14:36, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
On one hand, I agree with Choor monster that any talk about changing policies belongs at the WT:BP, otherwise it is just whining. On the other hand, we have to remember that WT:CFI is meant to reflect out policies, not the other way around, and it often does so imperfectly or inaccurately. --WikiTiki89 14:50, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
@Lmaltier, I would point to Benedict Arnold as a clear instance where a first and last name must be used together to convey linguistic content. bd2412 T 22:20, 13 August 2014 (UTC)


See also discussion at MediaWiki talk:Common.css#Font support for Latin Extended-D.

As far as I know we exclude such spellings on the same grounds we exclude long-s spellings for German, fi-ligature spellings for English and the like. -- Liliana 21:36, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

Delete. --WikiTiki89 22:02, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
Even if we allowed use of the contested character, it's an abbreviation, not an alternative spelling, and the cited use has no space in it. Considering the prevalence of conventions such as having part of a word in smaller characters above the line and underlined, though, I think it would be a bad idea to even try representing scribal shorthand. This particular variation has a Unicode look-alike, but most won't. Chuck Entz (talk) 22:39, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
Pace the nominator, Liliana, the exclusionary principle that applies to ſ, , etc. is inapplicable to ; ſ and can in every case be correctly converted to s and fi, respectively, without error. cannot be converted in the same way because sometimes it acts as a sigil for per, otherwise it may represent par, and at other times it stands for por. Therefore, the autoredirection that can be implemented for ſ, , and the like cannot be implemented for .
@Chuck Entz: This isn't just "a Unicode look-alike", it's one of Unicode's "Medievalist additions"; i.e., this is exactly the sort of thing for which was intended. The Medieval Unicode Font Initiative works to sort out which characters mean what, and where their proposals are accepted by the Unicode Consortium, I believe we should use these characters where appropriate. I'm not suggesting that we try to copy every nuance of scribal shorthand, but where certain conventions are sufficiently clear and widespread that they have been granted codepoints, I think it's safe for us to represent that aspect of scribal abbreviation.
Keep as creator. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 00:19, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
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I created this entry then realized it is probably SOP so thus added RFD to the entry and banner years. Yes, I should have checked out banner#Adjective first. If we do delete, I think it might be worth having a redirect for banner year to banner#Adjective. Cheers, Facts707 (talk) 17:31, 4 August 2014 (UTC)


Delete. More bupkis from a self-confessed WF sock, -- · (talk) 20:33, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

Did you try Google books ("batcape")? This word does exist, it's used in a number of books, in English, in French, etc. Most uses are capitalized, but not all of them. Lmaltier (talk) 20:42, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
Remarks: this word seems to be capitalised (Batcape); the definition is dubious (in reality, it seems to refer to the specific cape that is part of a Batman costume, not just any cape); and I've added two possible citations, though they aren't terribly satisfactory. Equinox 21:09, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
I think this needs citations which are "independent of reference to that universe" per WT:FICTION Siuenti (talk) 21:15, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
Would we need to remove the 1st sense in vampire unless we find uses of this sense without reference to the vampire universe? Or fully remove the page cyclops if there was no 2nd sense? This rule seems absurd, and inconsistent with the basic rule all words in all languages. It's normal to exclude words created by an obscure novelist in one of its novels and not used alsewhere, because they cannot be considered as words of the language, but this is not the case here. Anyway, it's not a fictional word, as batcapes are actually existing objects, even if the words refers to fiction. Lmaltier (talk) 18:03, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
A "fictional universe" refers to a specific fictional universe, usually created and owned by one author or organization. If there were three entirely separate and independent fictional universes that all used the word "batcape", I would consider it attested. --WikiTiki89 18:22, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

epula, epulam, epulorum[edit]

The word epulum is heterogeneous, having neuter singular forms and feminine plural forms with epulae also acting as a plural noun. The feminine singular and neuter plural nouns epula are backformations User:JohnC5 4:19 AM August 8, 2014.

If they're back-formations, then they exist! Is that actually an RFV issue? Read the introduction of WT:RFV. Renard Migrant (talk) 14:46, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

The Snow Queen[edit]

Fairy tale and its character. Essentially a book title, thus not dictionary content despite the translation table. Equinox 06:03, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

Move to Snow Queen and keep as the character. Translations need to be reviewed. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 10:31, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

bacon and eggs[edit]

SOP. --WikiTiki89 20:37, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

Does it pass the fried-egg test? If you have bacon together with scrambled eggs or poached eggs or soft-boiled eggs, is it still bacon and eggs? —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 20:43, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
I have no idea, since I've never eaten it. --WikiTiki89 20:45, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
It usually means fried eggs. Donnanz (talk) 21:03, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Keep: I don't think the possibilities of this entry have been fully explored by the nominator. Purplebackpack89 20:48, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
    The more possibilities, the more SOP it is. --WikiTiki89 20:59, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Keep. A delicious combination, by the way. I had bacon, eggs and fried tomatoes for brunch today. Donnanz (talk) 20:54, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
    Unfortunately, I don't eat bacon (and from what people tell me heard, turkey bacon is a poor substitute). --WikiTiki89 20:59, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
I'm withdrawing the nomination, since it will likely pass and I think I have changed my mind about it. --WikiTiki89 21:19, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
@Angr: One normally specifies the way one likes one's eggs, but the presumption is that they are fried, sunnyside up or over easy, or scrambled. DCDuring TALK 22:00, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
  • RFD withdrawn, two lines above. Other than that, there is an emerging consensu for keeping. --Dan Polansky (talk) 09:24, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
  • I know this RFD has been withdrawn, but I have to say - a Google Image for "bacon and eggs" gets, on the first three pages, 40 images of bacon and fried eggs, 6 of bacon and scrambled eggs, 7 of bacon and poached eggs, one of a bacon and egg sandwich, two of eggs wrapped in bacon, and three of eggs fried with chopped bacon. I don't think this phrase actually implies fried eggs - fried eggs are the most common, but certainly not the only meal described as "bacon and eggs". I think this RFD should be reopened, in which case my vote would be delete. Smurrayinchester (talk) 10:56, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
    Reopened. It is mere two days after this RFD started. Even if the nominator no longer wishes to delete the entry, other editors may. --Dan Polansky (talk) 11:30, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
Delete, it's simply useless. --Hekaheka (talk) 14:43, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Keep. Donnanz (talk) 15:40, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
    @Donnanz: Deboldfaced and striken out: you've already voted above. Above, you left a comment that is not a rationale; may I ask what is your rationale for keeping this entry? Is the rationale based in WT:CFI? Oops, you already said "It usually means fried eggs.", so this would be as per WT:FRIED. --Dan Polansky (talk) 09:23, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Delete. I've had bacon and eggs at many a diner. The first question they ask is, "how would you like your eggs". However, if it is asserted that "fried" is understood, I would request that this be RfV'd for that proposition. bd2412 T 14:47, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
Delete. Cultural context only; not really a lexical issue. Same applies to ham and eggs, sausage and egg, and anything with chips (are they crisps or fries?). Equinox 15:09, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Delete. I've become convinced that this does not pass the fried-egg test, so it's just sum of parts. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 15:14, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Delete. Some commercial operations may limit your choice, eg, to scrambled eggs, which are easier to prepare on a large scale, but in general one has a choice of mode of egg preparation and even such possibilities as egg-whites. Bacon preparation is not really restricted either as microwaving is possible and turkey bacon could be specified or Canadian bacon, a misnomer. That there is a "typical" configuration hardly seems to merit an entry in this or most other cases. DCDuring TALK 16:02, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
  • I would actually keep this since it refers to fried bacon and fried eggs. Renard Migrant (talk) 16:05, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
    Doesn't "He had bacon for breakfast." also imply that the bacon was fried? --WikiTiki89 16:11, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
    @Renard Migrant, does it refer to "fried eggs"? Can we prove that? bd2412 T 16:21, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
@Wikitiki89 yes you're right, @BD2412 it depends how high you set the burden of proof. Renard Migrant (talk) 17:15, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
Well, do we have any evidence whatsoever that eggs, as used in this expression, by default refers to "fried eggs"? Is this any different than saying that one is having "eggs" without reference to the bacon? bd2412 T 17:22, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
"Eggs" may not always refer to fried eggs, but it always refers to cooked/prepared eggs. Purplebackpack89 20:11, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
That is the case whether we are talking about "bacon and eggs" or "eggs" alone, isn't it? Or whether we are talking about, say, "eggs and toast" or "steak and eggs" or "french toast and eggs"? bd2412 T 21:31, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
When "eggs" is paired with another breakfast dish, it always refers to cooked eggs. Just "eggs" can refer to either cooked or uncooked eggs. Purplebackpack89 21:59, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
Not only when it is paired with a breakfast dish, but anytime the context is breakfast (e.g. "He had eggs for breakfast"). However, the question at hand is whether or not it is implied that the yolk is intact. For me there is no such implication even in the phrase "fried eggs", but for other speakers there is. --WikiTiki89 22:02, 18 August 2014 (UTC) --WikiTiki89 22:02, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
"I had eggs for breakfast" virtually always means cooked eggs. The rarity of people eating raw eggs for breakfast makes it hard to say anything about that, but someone who would say they had eggs for breakfast instead of "raw eggs" would probably say "eggs and bacon" instead of "raw eggs and raw bacon".--Prosfilaes (talk) 22:08, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Delete Any argument about eggs and bacon applies equally to eggs and toast or eggs and English muffins.--Prosfilaes (talk) 22:08, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
Delete as SOP. The suggestion that the term implies the eggs are cooked is mistaken — it is rather the context that implies the eggs are cooked; one does not normally eat raw eggs, neither as "bacon and eggs" nor as "some pancakes and a couple of eggs". The suggestion that the term implies the eggs are fried is dubious per Smurrayinchester's Google Image data, and if this passes on the basis that it implies frying, I'd suggest RFVing it and then re-RFDing it if the limitation to "fried" eggs is found on RFV to be unwarranted. I also agree with bd's comment of 14:47, 18 August 2014. - -sche (discuss) 22:18, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
Keep as a translation target (at least). Known outside Anglosphere as a common English dish (also translated into e.g. Japanese and Korean phonetically). --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 00:22, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
In Japanese and in Korean, they are different from bacon and eggs. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 01:43, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
So are French, Russian and German where "and" is not translated literally. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 01:51, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
Would "bacon and pancakes" or "lox and eggs" also have a different form, reached through the same construction? What I'm getting at is the question of whether there is something unique about the phrase "bacon and eggs" that would make it translate differently then similar combinations of bacon with another food or eggs with another food. bd2412 T 03:55, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
Keep. There may be scrambled eggs instead of fried eggs, but never boiled eggs. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 01:43, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
Not true; "Bacon. And eggs. Maybe poached eggs. Or boiled. Boiled is nice.". Here's "bacon and eggs any way you want". Or "Pancakes with Bacon & Eggs Serves 4 To prepare hard-boiled eggs that are easy to peel,..." I'm also seeing "Fried bacon and eggs" and "bacon and eggs over easy" and "bacon and eggs, or ham or sausage and eggs". --Prosfilaes (talk) 06:10, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

I think that this one is right on the edge of consensus to delete. Having myself voted to delete, I don't want to be the one to make that call, but my sense is that the discussion has petered out, and we should count Wikitiki's statement of withdrawing the nomination and having changed his mind as a "keep" vote and close this as no consensus. bd2412 T 02:06, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

No, you should not count my withdrawal as a keep. --WikiTiki89 02:31, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
Would you say, then, that you are neutral on the question at this point? If so, what would you read as the outcome of the discussion? bd2412 T 02:38, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
I'm still for deletion. I'm not sure if I can actually vote delete though, if I am the one who nominated it and thus I am already implicitly accounted for. --WikiTiki89 11:55, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

To reiterate the count at this point:

For deletion (9): User:Wikitiki89, User:Smurrayinchester, User:Hekaheka, User:BD2412, User:Equinox, User:Angr, User:DCDuring, User:Prosfilaes, User:-sche
For keeping (5): Donnanz, User:Purplebackpack89, User:Renard Migrant, Anatoli T. (as a translation target), User:TAKASUGI Shinji
Not voting (1): User:Dan Polansky

Is there anything else? bd2412 T 17:37, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

  • Keep, erring on the side of. This is nowhere near clear-cut. Bacon and eggs can tend toward fried eggs, but does it really? As for translation target, there are some curious translations (Japanese: ベーコンエッグ (bēkon eggu), Korean: 베이컨에그 (beikeonegeu), notice the transliterations), but are they really common? Anyway. --Dan Polansky (talk) 18:19, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Kept for lack of consensus to delete. bd2412 T 16:17, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

go to work[edit]

Rfd-sense: the first two senses "To begin performing some task or work." and "To go to one's job, as by commuting." should be replaced by {{&lit|go|to|work}}. -- Liliana 00:24, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

The first sense would not be idiomatic, even with our definitions of work. We have the right sense of the components for "to go to one's job".
There is a use of the expression for which we lack the right sense of work#Noun. MWOnline has what seems like the right definition: "sustained physical or mental effort to overcome obstacles and achieve an objective or result". They place it as a subsense under the sense "activity in which one exerts strength or faculties to do or perform something:". MW puts their definition for our "employment" sense as a subsense to the same sense, whereas we make "employment" to be a main sense.
go/get to work often use the MW sense. Definitions that to not include elements corresponding to "sustained effort", "overcoming obstacles", and "achieving results or objectives" fail to capture this.
At least we have the right sense of go: "start". DCDuring TALK 01:45, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
In my parochial experience, "(let's) get to work" is commoner. I would imagine work covers it. Equinox 01:52, 11 August 2014 (UTC)


Sum of its parts, non-idiomatic: 送料共 (sōryō-tomo, "shipping fee included") = 送料 (sōryō, shipping fee) + (tomo, altogether, included). It is simply a productive combination of nouns and the suffix -tomo, as seen in usages like 手数料共 (tesūryō-tomo, "transaction fee included") = 手数料 (tesūryō, transaction fee) + (-tomo), 消費税共 (syōhizei-tomo, "consumption tax included") = 消費税 (syōhizei, consumption tax) + (-tomo), 電池共 (denchi-tomo, "battery included") = 電池 (denchi, battery) + (-tomo), etc. unsigned comment by Whym 09:11, 13 August 2014‎ (UTC)

Tentatively delete, although it's included in EDICT. I have added one usage example at . --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 02:56, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

mackinaw jacket[edit]

Also mackinaw coat. A jacket (coat) made from mackinaw. Entry content is encyclopaedic. Compare "denim jacket", "woollen jumper", etc. Equinox 19:40, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Delete, about as straightforward as it gets. Renard Migrant (talk) 09:31, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Delete both per nom. bd2412 T 02:11, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

white man[edit]

SOP. The first sense is sense 2 white + sense 1 or sense 3 of man (depending on whether or not one includes non-males); the second sense is sense 2 white + sense 2 or 4 of man. Consider that we don't have Asian man, African man, etc. We do have red man, but that's because of redman and WT:COALMINE. - -sche (discuss) 04:44, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Delete, about as straightforward as it gets. Renard Migrant (talk) 09:33, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
Delete. --WikiTiki89 12:14, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
Multiple delete and keep votes for RFD#white man are at #black man (later Talk:black man). These currently include keeps by Widsith, BD2412, Atitarev, Purplebackpack89, Smurrayinchester, and Angr. So to close RFD#white man, please follow the discussion there. --Dan Polansky (talk) 06:10, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Yes. To be clear, keep as below. bd2412 T 16:01, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

black man[edit]

RFD of sense 1, which I think is SOP — sense 3 of black + sense 1 or 3 of man (depending on whether or not one includes non-males). - -sche (discuss) 04:44, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Terms whiteman and blackman may be attestable. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 04:51, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
Definition of "black man" at MW: Black man - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary. Also, (dialectal, dated) an evil spirit. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 04:54, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Keep both. Crucial collocations. I think citation evidence for these is instructive, when it was first used etc. Both are also in the OED, FWIW. Ƿidsiþ 05:01, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
black person was deleted (I cannot find the discussion) and so should these be. Equinox 12:04, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Keep both. Also, what about red man? bd2412 T 16:30, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
    I would say (and did say above) that redman and WT:COALMINE ensure its inclusion, but now that I think about it, we have disregarded that policy for other _ man terms, e.g. when we deleted Chinese man despite Chineseman, so who knows — maybe red man should be RFDed. (Are blackman and whiteman attested with relevant senses?) - -sche (discuss) 18:53, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
    I think red man would be kept even if WT:COALMINE didn't apply, since we don't call communists that. bd2412 T 20:15, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
    Don't we? --WikiTiki89 20:19, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
    Not according to our definition. bd2412 T 20:27, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
    Right, I forgot our definitions are always complete and accurate. --WikiTiki89 21:02, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
    The underlining point is that colors are ambiguous enough for these definitions to pass muster, COALMINE or no. Purplebackpack89 21:08, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
    @WikiTiki, it's not a question of whether our definitions are accurate, but of whether there is any evidence that the word is actually used in any other way. There are many meanings of black, white, red, and yellow, but white man, red man, black man and yellow man appear to be set phrases for which it would be wrong (or at least weird and disconcerting) to apply the phrase to one of the other meanings. You don't see communists or red-state conservatives referred to as "red man", cowards or sensationalist journalists referred to as "yellow man", or elderly people referred to as "white man". bd2412 T 16:03, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
    I'm entirely unconvinced that English-speakers don't call male communists "red men". A cursory search turned up several citations, one of which even uses the collective sense. Nawal Saadawi's autobiography uses "red woman" to denote "communist woman", and for that matter also uses "red nights" to denote the kind of nights communists have (which are apparently different in some way from the night-times which capitalists experience), "red Pasha" to denote a Pasha who is communist, etc, etc. - -sche (discuss) 21:47, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Keep white, red, black and yellow: per Widsith, and because "white" is ambiguous. Purplebackpack89 18:21, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Keep The fundamental difference between these phrases and standard collocations of the word "man" is that it takes the definite article in an unusual way, and it isn't pluralised in cases that you think it would be - for example, in the sentence "Ever since the black man was accepted in professional sports, the game quality has constantly risen to new heights." Taken literally, this implies that one specific man, who was black, improved the quality of sports when of course, "the black man" is really a synonym for "black people". This doesn't work for other social groups - you can't say *"Ever since the woman..." to mean "Ever since women" or *"Ever since the gay man..." to mean "Ever since gay men". In fact, "Ever since the gay man" doesn't appear even once in Google Books, while "Ever since the white man" appears 11,900 times - almost always in this synecdochic sense. (For sense 1 at white man, I'd happy with an {{&lit}} if people really insisted, but I don't personally think it does any harm when there are additional senses on the page) Smurrayinchester (talk) 21:09, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
    Another interesting symptom of the way these terms have become lexicalised is the pronunciation: ˈblack man; compare ˌblack ˈcar, ˌblack baˈlloon etc. Ƿidsiþ 09:08, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
    But that's just how you refer to men sharing an attribute as a class. It's not hard to find the left-handed man, the unhappy man, the Lithuanian man, etc. What about phrases such as "that's what the well-dressed man is wearing these days"? They're certainly not referring to individuals, either. Chuck Entz (talk) 21:12, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
To me, each of those just seem to be mean some along the lines of "the average X man" or "some hypothetical X man" - in each case, you could add the word average or typical without affecting the meaning of the sentence at all ("It seems to me that the [average] Lithuanian man is [...] becoming more depressed", "the world of the [average] happy man is a different one from that of the [average] unhappy man", "what the [average] well-dressed man is wearing"). You couldn't do the same with, for example "The white man brought many diseases to the New World" - here, "white man" is a clear synecdoche. Smurrayinchester (talk) 21:35, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
Forgot to say keep. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 01:13, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
Delete, about as straightforward as it gets. I'd imagine this is another one where WT:CFI will be defeated by a vote though. Perhaps we should have a policy that WT:CFI goes ahead of voting. But we don't. Renard Migrant (talk) 09:33, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
We should never have that policy, Mgloves. That would give deletionists an unacceptable supervote. It'd essentially make SOP a criteria for speedy deletion. That's ridiculous considering that a great many print dictionaries have hundreds, maybe even thousands, of entries that fail CFI. We lose face by having a restrictive CFI that doesn't allow us those entries. Purplebackpack89 14:46, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
We don't lose face. We simply have different criteria than other dictionaries. Choor monster (talk) 14:58, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
Having entries that other dictionaries have is not an aim in itself. Being nonidentical to other dictionaries is not something to be ashamed of. Other dictionaries aren't trying to become Wiktionary, so why should we try and become other dictionaries? Renard Migrant (talk) 20:22, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
Delete. --WikiTiki89 12:14, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Keep both per Smurrayinchester, at least in the generic/collective senses (currently missing at black man, I see, but doubtless attestable). —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 15:22, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
    Created. Smurrayinchester (talk) 19:33, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

yellow man[edit]

Adding "yellow man" to the above debate, just to give the lie to PBP's smarmy edit summary when creating it. Equinox 20:45, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

They will be kept. I guarantee it. Purplebackpack89 20:47, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
Was using the word "smarmy" really necessary? Also, yellow man is pretty darn attestable, maybe as much as red man which we kept. (Note I already voted keep on yellow above) Purplebackpack89 20:58, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Keep, as above. bd2412 T 01:50, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
Delete, about as straightforward as it gets. Renard Migrant (talk) 09:33, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
Delete. --WikiTiki89 12:14, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Keep assuming cites for the generic/collective sense can be found. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 15:27, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
    • Incidentally, this passage has several uses of black man, white man, and yellow man in the generic/collective sense that IMO makes these terms keepable (more than SOP). The content of what it says strikes me as utter bullshit, but he uses the terms in the way we're looking for, which is what matters. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 15:33, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
      • Isn't the collective sense of white man, black man, yellow man etc just the racial sense of white, black etc + the collective sense of man? (That's either sense 2 or 4 depending on whether or not the specific uses include non-males; I expect both male-only and all-gender uses can be found.) Compare google books:"(of|when|before|after) Caucasian man", google books:"(of|when|before|after) African man". ("Of" introduces a lot of chaff to the results like "a type of Caucasian man", but if you weed that chaff out you find the many, many collective uses like "All our observations of African man show him as living in a state of savagery and barbarism, and he remains in this state to the present day.") - -sche (discuss) 21:39, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
        • That use of "man" doesn't take the definite article, though: "All our observations of (*the) African man show...". This expression does, and as Smurrayinchester showed above, you can't replace the colors "black/white/yellow/red" with other adjectives: you can't say "the gay man" to mean "gay men in general" or "the German man" to mean "German men in general" or "German people in general". —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 22:57, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
  • BTW, has anybody considered the possibility that these could be translation targets? Purplebackpack89 21:20, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
    There are several other places translations already exist and can continue to exist if these terms are deleted (Caucasian, white#Noun, black#Noun, Asian, etc). - -sche (discuss) 21:39, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

Annual Filing Season Program[edit]

CFI, SOP. --kc_kennylau (talk) 23:38, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Delete as encyclopedic. DCDuring TALK 00:45, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom and per DC. bd2412 T 15:27, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
Delete. Equinox 15:33, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

Deleted. bd2412 T 15:51, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

rediculous (usage note)[edit]

The following usage note is herewith proposed for deletion: "This spelling may sometimes be used intentionally for effect."

Rationale: weak or non-existence evidence supporting the usage note.

--Dan Polansky (talk) 20:24, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Wouldn't this be an WT:RFV thing? --WikiTiki89 20:25, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
I don't know. Even if quotations are provided, their assessment as to their support for the usage note may turn very controversial. I propose to leave it here in RFD, and let those who want to keep this collect as much supporting evidence as they can. In the end, the closure will be a RFD-one, based on vote counting. (Yes, in the ideal world, it would be based on the strength of arguments, but no one has yet come up with an algorithm assessing strength of arguments.) --Dan Polansky (talk) 20:28, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
One citation that I provided makes exactly this distinction: May 28, 2013, The Official Justin Timberlake Thread, page 13: "I love Britney but, That's rediculous, not ridiculous but, rediculous!" Here the writer is basically indicating that they know the word is spelled "ridiculous" but that the situation is so extreme as to be "rediculous". I would also point again to 1986, Winston Groom, Forrest Gump, Ch. 7: "Him bein a tank officer an all, he say it rediculous for us to be wagin a war in a place where we can't hardly use our tanks on account of the land is mostly swamp or mountains". Here the misspelling is obviously being used as eye dialect representing the character's accent. 2013, Tracey Hollings, The Curious Musings of Sally Columbous, page 108, has a chapter heading titled "Rediculous". While we are on the subject, by the way, the number of hits for 18th and 19th century uses suggests that at one point this was a legitimate alternate spelling. bd2412 T 20:41, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
Eye dialect is yet another separate sense line, presumably, since it's neither (accidental) misspelling nor eccentric personal choice à la CodeCat. Equinox 20:43, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
Four senses, then? Common misspelling, intentional misspelling, eye dialect, archaic alternative use? bd2412 T 20:49, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
I thinking we're overdoing it. I think "misspelling" covers all those cases. But I'm going to vote keep on the usage note based on BD's evidence. --WikiTiki89 20:54, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
The way I've handled other things that were acceptable in the past but are now restricted in some way is along the lines of this: {{lb|en|now|nonstandard|or|eye dialect}} {{alternative spelling of|ridiculous}}. I recognize that "nonstandard or eye dialect" is a bit clunky, so perhaps "eye dialect of" could be a separate sense, but saying "now nonstandard: alternative spelling of" rather than having separate "archaic spelling of" and "misspelling of" senses seems useful. - -sche (discuss) 21:58, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
On further investigation, this Ngram suggests that it has been hovering around 500-1000 times less common than ridiculous (except for a bizarre spike around 1817-1818) for the last 200 years. It does, however, go back a ways before that. Here is a slightly earlier quote: 1598, William Shakespeare, Loves Labors Lost: the first quarto, page 57: "Their shallow showes, and Prologue vildly pende, And their rough carriage so rediculous, Should be presented at our Tent to vs". bd2412 T 22:13, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
With Shakespeare, one can always blame the typesetters. DCDuring TALK 23:06, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
Not really a matter of blame – spelling was rather fluid then. I would just say ‘obsolete or non-standard spelling of’. Ƿidsiþ 11:08, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
I don't think one citation from Shakespeare is enough to call it obsolete. --WikiTiki89 11:57, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
Here are some more citations contemporaneous to Shakespeare:
    • 1592, Thomas Nash, Pierce Penilesse, His Supplication to the Divell, page 28:
      Dalliance in the sagest and highest causes is an absurdity, and like a rediculous Vice in a tragedy, or a poisonous serpent in Paradise.
    • 1594, Robert Parsons, A Conference about the Next Succession of the Crown of Ingland, page 14:
      ...but if it be ment as though any Prince had his particuler gouermenr or interest to succeed by institutió of nature, it is rediculous, for that nature giueth it not as hath bin declared, but the particular constitution of euery comon wealth with-in it selfe...
    • 1603, George Gifford, ‎Thomas Wright, A Dialogue Concerning Witches & Witchcrafts, page 60:
      God hath given naturall helps, and those we may use, as from his hande against naturall diseases, but things besides nature he hath not appointed, especiallie they bee rediculous to drive away devilles and diseases.
    • 1609, Jean François Le Petit, A Generall Historie of the Netherlands, page 1288:
      It were a rediculous spectacle, that after they had stript our wives and children of all their clothes, and made them forfeit to your highnesse, they should afterward condemne them to depart out of your territories Within three dayes.
    • 1610, St. Augustine, Citie of God, page 327:
      O lamentable necessity! nay rediculous detestable vanitie, to keepe vanity from diuinitie.
Cheers! bd2412 T 13:26, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
Wow, excellent! --WikiTiki89 14:21, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
Was it the same typesetting shop? ;-) DCDuring TALK 15:36, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
But seriously, folks, EME is almost as bad as Middle English in terms of lack of standardized spelling. DCDuring TALK 15:38, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
That would certainly explain this. bd2412 T 16:09, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
I would have hypothesized proliferation from the very beginning. Maybe editing/proofreading was better initially, but rapid growth (and lower prices?) reduced such effort. I wonder if anyone has studied this? DCDuring TALK 16:28, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
Excellent citations from bd showing old usage. And I like the context + alt form solution which has been implemented. I question only whether it should say "archaic" rather than "obsolete". According to our glossary, obsolete is for things "no longer in use, no longer likely to be understood" while archaic is for things "no longer in general use, but ... generally understood by educated people, but rarely used in current texts or speech"; the latter seems to apply here.
PS, I find a few citations of "radiculous" as an archaic or obsolete spelling of "rediculous", plus a few citations of it as something related to "radicular" (but one book says "radicular pain" emanates from radicles, while "radiculous pain is pain without anatomic basis"). - -sche (discuss) 16:57, 27 August 2014 (UTC)


Apparently Spanish, which doesn't use ï. Also biez as alt form. --Type56op9 (talk) 18:58, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Sounds like a matter for rfv. Chuck Entz (talk) 19:10, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
All the first pages on Google show either Wiktionary or websites that, I assume, use the WT data. This page is speedy-able, IMO. --Type56op9 (talk) 08:15, 30 August 2014 (UTC)


RFD for the proper-noun sense "Keio University". Does the name of that institution warrant inclusion for some reason of which I'm unaware? — I.S.M.E.T.A. 00:45, 2 September 2014 (UTC)


An IP has been tagging this for speedy deletion on the grounds that it's not a single word, so I thought I would bring it here. While I disagree with the stated grounds for deletion, I do think this is quite SOP. The only question in my mind is whether we keep hyphenated adjective-noun constructions.

To avoid making this a debate about alleged obscenity, let's look at analogous constructions with less-controversial body parts: big-nosed, big-eared, big-footed, etc. I would argue that there are lots of adjectives that could be used this way: long-fingered, bony-fingered, sharp-toothed, crooked-fingered, short-thumbed, wide-hipped, etc. We have entries for broad-shouldered and long-legged. The first makes sense, because it implies more than mere measurement, but I'm not sure about the second.

Going further afield, what about round-windowed, blue-painted, sandy-soiled, big-trunked, or wood-paneled? All of these seem similarly SOP to me. Chuck Entz (talk) 14:03, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

The meaning's very transparent. On the other hand it seems to me that it's a single word. Is the meaning easily derived from the sum of its parts? Possibly. To my surprise dicked#Adjective exists. Renard Migrant (talk) 14:13, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
At least we have the appropriate sense of dicked#Adjective. (Though we miss the other sense of dicked#Adjective ("screwed", "fucked"), which is almost certainly a true adjective.) I hope we have all the similar adjectives of the form 'noun + -ed'. DCDuring TALK 15:07, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
I scoured b.g.c for bigdicked in case this is coal-mineable, but no luck. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 15:28, 2 September 2014 (UTC)