Module talk:uk-be-headword

Multiple genders

Nouns such as голова have multiple genders for some definition. I tried adding hackish support [1] (because g is searched by harcoded indexes) but it complains that Module:gender_and_number at line 103: The gender specification "mf-an" is not valid. I can't figure out where this langinfo.genders that contains valid genders is located?! --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 02:07, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

See my changes to голова#Ukrainian. Is that what you wanted? --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 02:20, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

Yes. I suppose the need for easier processing in Lua killed the old mf/m-f thing. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 02:27, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

Personal nouns?

@Benwing2: Hi. What gender should змій (zmij) noun be? Personal nouns cat is not supported. I wonder if the "dragon" sense should have a different animacy or gender ("creature" or "animal") (as per User:Benwing2/uk-nouns#Animacy:) and "insidious person" sense would stay just "animate". I am not sure we have such examples. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 07:40, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

@Atitarev My intent was to use "personal" for people, "animate" for animals, and "inanimate" for others, as all three are already supported by Module:gender and number and are now supported by Module:uk-headword. This is a bit unsatisfactory in that "animate" in e.g. Russian means "person + animal". Potentially I could add an animal-specific animacy category, but I'm not sure what abbreviation to use as "an" and "anim" could mean "animate" or "animal". (Currently, "an" is the abbreviation for animate as used in gender/number specs in templates, and it's displayed as anim.) Maybe "anml" for the template abbreviation, displayed as anml or spelled out as animal? Or "cr" for the template abbreviation, displayed as creat? "Creature" is a bit of a funny word for "animal". Same goes (even more) for "beast". Benwing2 (talk) 00:12, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

@Benwing2:: Hi. What is important is that creatures have a different declension from both inanimate and animate. It actually has a combination of both, as you noticed, e.g. твари́на (tvarýna)->твари́ни, твари́н.

I tried to create Category:Ukrainian personal nouns but got an error.

I can go for "anml", not a big deal for me.

Do we need to discuss this in WT:BP? I wonder if there are nay other special gender cases in other languages.

Interesting that Ukrainians define animate and inanimate only with nouns "істо́та" or "неісто́та" (creature/non-creature), no special gender I could see but declension tables consistently show difference between humans and animals/creatures.

At http://litopys.org.ua/pravopys/rozdil2.htm I found this little note about creatures in the accusative plural:

Примітка. Іменники — назви деяких свійських тварин уживаються також у формі, однаковій із формою називного відмінка: гнати овець (і вівці), пасти корів (і корови), годувати свиней (і свині). ("Note. Nouns - the names of some domestic animals are also used in a form identical to the form of the nominative case...")

They only mention domestic animals but it's not true. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 00:40, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

@Benwing2:: Hi. Is animcy defined here: Module:category_tree/poscatboiler/data/lemmas?

"animate nouns" = nouns that refer to humans or animals.

"inanimate nouns" = nouns that refer to inanimate objects (not humans or animals)

Hmm, we don't have animacy required for humans only and animals only. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 01:52, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

comparatives for adverbs

@Benwing2: Hi. Could you please add comparatives for adverbs, e.g. {{uk-adv|бага́то|більш|comp2=бі́льше}} (for sense #1 "a lot")? --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 09:33, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

@Atitarev Done. Note, I also went through last night and fixed up Ukrainian nouns to use 'anml' or 'pr' instead of 'an'. Benwing2 (talk) 21:13, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

@Benwing2: Thank you. I’d like to have animacy consistent with Polish entries, though but Polish editors didn’t respond on that thread. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 22:30, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

Extended animacy

@Benwing2: Hi. I'm still eager to get a unified approach for Slavic nouns, so if the Ukrainian animacy is partially shared with Polish (or other languages), we should display and categories them the same way. I also think that we should have the structure looking something like this:

• Animate

• Persons
• Animals

• Inanimate

What do you think?--Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 01:41, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

@Atitarev This is the approach I've followed in Module:uk-headword. Personal and animal nouns classify both into Category:Ukrainian animate nouns and Category:Ukrainian personal nouns/Category:Ukrainian animal nouns. Benwing2 (talk) 02:13, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

@Benwing2: Sorry, I don't see this structure in Category:Ukrainian_nouns. Should the categories themselves Category:Ukrainian personal nouns/Category:Ukrainian animal nouns by subcats of Category:Ukrainian animate nouns? --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 02:25, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

@Atitarev I see. Yes, we can do that. Benwing2 (talk) 02:38, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

@Benwing2: Thanks. I've added Category:Ukrainian personal nouns/Category:Ukrainian animal nouns to Category:Ukrainian animate nouns but entries themeselves should go only into their subcategories, IMO. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 02:48, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

@Atitarev OK, I implemented that. I also changed things so that personal/animal nouns have 'animate nouns' as the parent in Module:category tree/poscatboiler/data/lemmas so it shows up in the breadcrumbs at the top of the category page and you don't need to explicitly add it. Benwing2 (talk) 02:54, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

related adjective before diminutive

@Atitarev I made this consistent and also introduced Category:Ukrainian nouns with multiple animacies (and likewise for Russian). Benwing2 (talk) 03:43, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

unknown_stress=1

@Atitarev I made accents mandatory in {{uk-noun}} except when |unknown_stress=1 is given. There are only a few cases left where I couldn't figure out the stress; see Category:Requests for accents in Ukrainian entries and subcats. Benwing2 (talk) 06:10, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

multistress error

@Atitarev Added for {{uk-noun}}. Formerly it was only on the declension templates. Benwing2 (talk) 16:36, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

@Benwing2: Thank you. I didn't remember exactly where the error was expected. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 22:10, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

new-style Template:uk-noun

@Atitarev I implemented new-style {{uk-noun}} declarations that work like {{ru-noun+}}, i.e. you use the same syntax as with {{uk-ndecl}} and it automatically displays the nom sg, gen sg, nom pl and gen pl forms and the gender. It's able to support both the old and new syntaxes because the new one has <> in it and the old one doesn't. It allows |g=, |g2=, ... if you need to override the gender, as well as |m=, |f=, |adj= and |dim= like the current {{uk-noun}}. Benwing2 (talk) 23:17, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

@Benwing2: Thanks. Could you please show how? I don't see the forms displayed automatically yet. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 00:04, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

@Atitarev See User:Benwing2/test-uk-noun. Benwing2 (talk) 00:07, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

@Benwing2: Great, thank you, I can see now. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 04:00, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

@Atitarev I ran a bot script to convert most nouns. There are about 200 remaining that I'm going through by hand. Benwing2 (talk) 05:32, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Title

@Benwing2. Hi. Did you mean Module:be-headword for Belarusian? All the Ukrainian talk history is moved here. Was that intentional? --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 01:40, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

@Atitarev This is intentional. Rather than create an almost duplicate module for Belarusian, I changed the Ukrainian module to support both Ukrainian and Belarusian, hence the name. I am currently running a script to convert Belarusian nouns, verbs, and adjectives to the format required by this module (i.e. the same format for Ukrainian and Belarusian). Benwing2 (talk) 01:42, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I noticed genders default to "m-pr"? In Belarusian I haven't found any extended animacy, so animate/inanimate, like in Russian will do. Animals are declined as animates.

After EC. Wow. I wonder how you make your miracles. Are you sure it's going to work? Anyway, I'll let you do it. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 01:46, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

@Atitarev I got rid of genders defaulting to "m-pr". That was intended for template space but it appeared everywhere. Now, the gender must be specified, and only in templates it defaults to "m-in". Benwing2 (talk) 06:55, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

Category:Requests for inflections in Belarusian entries

@Benwing2: The category can somewhat be reduced for uncountables or pluralia tantum. They can be determined by inflection templates they use. E.g. Белару́сь (Bjelarúsʹ) uses {{be-decl-noun-unc}}. Also the request might be limited to common nouns, excluding proper nouns(?) --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 03:24, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

@Atitarev Yeah, that's a bug in my script that cleaned up the nouns; it should have added - for the nominative plural of entries with {{be-decl-noun-unc}} as the declension table. I'll fix that up. Benwing2 (talk) 06:54, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

Template:be-noun supports <> notation

@Atitarev {{be-noun}} now supports <> notation like {{uk-noun}}. I will be running a script soon to convert all the headwords. Benwing2 (talk) 02:44, 27 July 2020 (UTC)