Module talk:zh/data/dial-syn/剛才

將

@Justinrleung: I decided to put all palatalized readings as 將 just now. Should I change them back to the forms given in 現代漢語方言大詞典? RcAlex36 (talk) 16:48, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: It kind of depends on the dialect. I'm not sure. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 16:51, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: The problem is 漢語方言詞彙 writes the palatalized form as 將. This looks like an issue of 文白異讀. RcAlex36 (talk) 16:53, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: We should use 剛 where it's clearly used for each 方言點. Are there 方言點 where only 將 is attested? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 17:10, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: 方言點 with only 將 in their entries right now (but this probably doesn't mean 剛 cannot be pronounced with a k- in those locations). RcAlex36 (talk) 17:17, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: Actually, I think we can just change all 將 to 剛 since the footnote says 剛 is the 本字 in 漢語方言詞彙. I don't think it that necessary to make the distinction between 剛 and 將. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 21:08, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

Penang Hokkien

@Justinrleung I inserted a POJ entry by listening to the voice sample on the Penang Hokkien dictionary. Please fill in the characters if you know. The dog2 (talk) 00:21, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

@The dog2: Next time, just add it as a comment if you're not sure. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 01:23, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

I found this discussion, which suggests a few possible (but really rough) etymologies. It might be related to 站仔 in Quanzhou. @Freelance Intellectual, could you check your sources to see if they give any characters for "ta-ma" or something like it? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 01:43, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: @The dog2: Trying to unpick the etymologies here might be quite difficult! In an unpublished work, Catherine Churchman has documented taⁿ-má meaning "just now", and writes the characters 當嗎. The first character is presumably chosen to connect it to other words which are plausibly related (in both Penang and elsewhere). For example, Churchman also writes 當 in thàn-a 趁當 "now", and suggests that it might derive from an earlier *thàn-taⁿ. (Incidentally, the MOE character 今 for taⁿ follows some established usage, but Henning Klöter documents 今, 當, ⿰日當, 呾, 丁.) Churchman also lists variant pronunciations ta-má and cha-má, and the latter would sound like 站仔. The second character (嗎) is clearly a phonetic loan, perhaps related to 仔 (with the m from assimilation of the nasal?), but also perhaps related to má in Taiwanese chit-má (MOE 這馬), or perhaps a phonetic reduction of something else entirely (e.g. tong-kim "now" is still in use, and I could imagine a hypothetical *tong-kim-á contracting to taⁿ-má). So I can confirm the word and its pronunciation, but there are various attested characters and plausible etymologies here. Freelance Intellectual (talk) 11:36, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

@Freelance Intellectual: Thanks for looking around! I think it might be best to write it in POJ for now. Would you recommend putting taⁿ-má, ta-má and cha-má? Is this word in Luc de Gijzel or S.I. Tan? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 15:31, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: In fact, Tan and de Gijzel both have tá-má, with a different tone. The plot thickens. Freelance Intellectual (talk) 15:46, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

@Freelance Intellectual: How convenient... Timothy Tye's dictionary has ta3ma1, which would be ta-ma, but the second syllable's tone seems to be a result of tone sandhi because it's usually followed by a verb. If we trust Timothy Tye's pronunciation, Churchman is probably more right with taⁿ-má or ta-má? But I don't know if tá-má also exists... — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 15:53, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Based on past experience, I'm more inclined to trust Churchman's tones. And the discussion you linked to includes some native speakers (if I understand correctly) who also wrote those tones. Meanwhile, Tye is inconsistent with writing citation tone or sandhi tone and your analysis sounds right. How about putting ta-má in this template and noting variation in an actual entry? Because of co-articulation with "m", the difference between taⁿ-má and ta-má would be close to zero, especially in fast speech. Freelance Intellectual (talk) 16:18, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

@Freelance Intellectual: I just checked the "Northern Malaysia vocabulary" from the Speak Hokkien campaign, and they seem to write it as tâm-á (耽仔). (It's just a list of words, so there's no way to check whether it's referring to the same word.) In fast speech, there's essentially no difference among ta-má, taⁿ-má and tâm-á. I think it'd be fine to have ta-má as the main form. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 16:29, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

For what it's worth(?): google:"ta ma" "刚才" "马来"

• [1]
  • 我们这边的年轻人都说 ta ma（刚才）老年人才说za zung,tao za
  • ta ma 是泉州闽南话
  • 现在=baru 刚才=ta ma.. 我的潮州话mix得很厉害
• [2]
  • Ta3 Ma4/ Jia1 = 刚才, wa jia jiak Ba 我刚吃饱
  • tama 是福建话潮州话是叫tao zha

—Suzukaze-c (talk) 21:46, 21 August 2020 (UTC)