Reconstruction talk:Latin/dominionem
Feminine only gender
[edit]Regarding this statement <<It would fail to account for the complete absence of any feminine form in Romance>> : Although we reconstruct the Frankish form as feminine, it could have also been masculine, or had a masculine counterpart (*dungī̌ m). Compare Old High German tung (“earth-house, cellar, underground chamber”), Middle High German tunc, being either masculine or feminine. Same for Old Saxon dung m or f (“weavers'-room”). Leasnam (talk) 16:58, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
Dominus
[edit]@Nicodene, if the word had been borrowed from Proto-Germanic *dungijǭ (3rd - 5th c.) then it could be masculine (cf. sāpōnem) as *dungiōnem (“vault, secure place, refuge”). And, had the residents of the abbey altered the term to fit a Christian connotation referencing the LORD as their Protector (cf. Proverbs 18:10 - The Name of the Lord is a strong tower, the righteous run to it and are safe), re-modelling it after Dominus, *dominiōnem (“the LORD-refuge, strong tower, high tower”) would make a lot of sense. Is this possible in your estimation ? Leasnam (talk) 15:57, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Leasnam If one is going to posit that something quite semantically removed from donjon (the attested senses I'm seeing for the Germanic forms all amount to “subterranean place”) was remodelled into *dominionem by analogy with dominus, a much likelier starting-point would be domus “house”, which made it into early Old French as dom. The formal correspondence between that and donjon is precisely the same as that between som “summit, top” < summum and sonjon “summit” < *summionem < summum. Moreover donjon, like other /nd͡ʒ/ forms, would be just as regular an outcome of *domionem < domus as it would be of *dominionem < dominus. Positing the former would, of course, fail to account for the /mɲ/ outcomes (without, that is, recourse to an early remodelling per dominus) so I won't be making that as a serious proposal. Nicodene (talk) 22:59, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Nicodene, I searched Google earlier today for images of what "dunghills" look like, because I was baffled by the fact that the PIE root gave rise to both a word meaning "pile, earthen mound, dunghill" as well as "apartment, bower". When I saw the images tab I was struck by how the [dunghill] in the second image was eerily reminiscent of the donjon in the background of the fourth image. A coincidence, yes, but I realised that the Proto-Germanic *dungijǭ could in some instances be quite an imposing structure (at least to the Germanics). Leasnam (talk) 23:52, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- It wouldn't be the place I'd choose to live in as a feudal lord, but there's no accounting for taste. Nicodene (talk) 00:16, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Nicodene, I searched Google earlier today for images of what "dunghills" look like, because I was baffled by the fact that the PIE root gave rise to both a word meaning "pile, earthen mound, dunghill" as well as "apartment, bower". When I saw the images tab I was struck by how the [dunghill] in the second image was eerily reminiscent of the donjon in the background of the fourth image. A coincidence, yes, but I realised that the Proto-Germanic *dungijǭ could in some instances be quite an imposing structure (at least to the Germanics). Leasnam (talk) 23:52, 30 July 2024 (UTC)